The Most Knowledgeable UFO Researcher In The World

Ground News ➤ Go to https://ground.news/jessemichels to uncover the truth behind the headlines. Save 40% on the Ground News unlimited access Vantage plan with my link. Qualia ➤ Resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Senolytic. Go to https://Qualialife.com/JESSE for up to 50% off and use code JESSE at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience Qualia Senolytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with researcher UAP Gerb. UAP Gerb's YouTube ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UCXr8USOuzZN_3y_efZpryrg This was one of the most mind blowing, information-dense interviews we’ve ever done. UAPGerb is a deep wellspring of knowledge on UFO crash retrievals and reverse‐engineering. He takes us on a comprehensive tour of Air Force Bases, Deep Underground Military Bases and “Federally Funded Research Organizations” associated with UFO reverse engineering efforts across the United States. He is in touch with multiple firsthand eyewitnesses of crafts and “biologics” in military intelligence and private aerospace. Gerb traces the roots of these clandestine operations from early Cold War initiatives—such as the 1947 Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit and Battelle’s project Stork working with Blue Book — to modern-day programs allegedly managed by the NSA and DOE. He reveals specialized teams, identified by DOE rain jackets and black fatigues operating from sites like Area51’s S4 near Papoose Mountain, Dugway Proving Grounds, and Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. With references to the famous Twining memo and testimonies from figures such as Philip J. Corso, Robert Sarbacher and Edgar Fouchet, Gerb paints a picture of a multi-layered, continuously evolving and obfuscated UFO program. One in which the dark money spent is unfathomable harkening back to Rumsfeld’s September 10th 2001 speech about trillions missing from the Defense Budget and the great work of Catherine Austin Fitts. -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:11 UFO Whistleblowers 03:41 Michael Herrera 08:07 Military and Intelligence Connections 12:08 The Role of Psionics 15:44 Corso's Legacy and UFO Technology 23:21 The Evolution of UFO Research 27:10 The Secretive World of FFRDCs 34:57 Deep Underground Military Bases 42:09 Collaboration in UFO Investigations 50:38 The Complexities of Disclosure 57:03 Bob Lazar and S-4 Connections 1:03:25 Battelle and UFO Research 1:13:36 The Holloman Air Force Base Footage 1:15:17 The Sandler Connection 1:24:06 Whistleblowers and Classified Sightings 1:28:09 The Hidden Technologies 1:37:09 The Role of Dick Cheney 1:50:50 The Alien Reproduction Vehicle 2:03:17 Early UFO Crashes 2:14:53 The Reality of Reverse Engineering 2:24:28 Continuing the Investigation -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] #history #research #aliens #military Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jesse Michels?

  The information density of your channel is drinking from a fire hose of mind-blowing facts.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  The golden age of Army R&D has a lot of really interesting research we can parallel today and talk about later. But during this time, the Foreign Technology Division was trying to use recovered technology to use human brainwaves to guide ICBM missiles.

• 0:17Jesse Michels?

  Whoa!

• 0:18Speaker 02

  It is not only possible, it is essential.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  And then there's also stories about the 1983 Strategic Defense Initiative instituted by Ronald Reagan, which was to act against Soviet ICBMs.

• 0:28Jesse Michels?

  This is Star Wars.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, this likely had a backdoor to fund UAP programs and act offensively against UAP. This technology is obviously not ubiquitous. There's different types of technology. There's different craft design. One could reasonably assume then there's different types of NHI. Some man, some not man. That design actually was featured in the first ever episode of The X-Files, which was allegedly based on true stories from John D'Souza. It's the same design.

• 0:51Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Different parts of the brain have different activities.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Well, you know that, don't you?

• 1:03Speaker 03

  Maybe you should interview me.

• 1:12Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Sammy "UAP" Gerb, who runs, I think, my favorite channel on YouTube that covers UFOs, literally. The information density of your channel is second to none. It's drinking from a fire hose of mind-blowing facts. Like, I think any 15-second clip from any one of your videos could beget its own entire video on various other channels that are kind of slower and less fast-paced. I'm just so impressed by you and I'm grateful to call you a friend and I'm really excited to have this conversation. We had another conversation and it looks like that might go up on my WAP, this channel where we're trying to like...

• 1:57Jesse Michels?

  Foster really cool kind of community engagement, have conversations that kind of take it to the next level when it comes to UFOs. But this follow up should get crazier because UFO world has gone nuts since we last spoke. So it's an honor to have you here, man.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks so much. I'm happy to be back. I mean, we recorded last time in November. Since then, we had the hearings, we had like the Soul Foundation, we had Jake coming forward. We've had so much to touch on. So like you and I talked about, got this back together because a ton of new topics to touch on, old stuff to revisit, new information. It's been an exciting time.

• 2:33Jesse Michels?

  It's been a crazy time. I don't even know where to start. Maybe we start with the Jake Barber story. So we're in unprecedented territory where we have somebody coming out, a UFO whistleblower claiming firsthand knowledge, saying that he retrieved an egg shaped craft. And then a video coming out that may have been a little hyped up and anticlimactic. But if you listen to him, a lot of what he says is just extremely internally consistent with, you know, people like Michael Herrera, who you've done a great, great piece on. And a lot of other accounts when it comes to, you know, UFOs and crash retrievals. It kind of vindicates Stephen Greer as well. And so it's kind of hard to poke holes in actually just the core details of the story.

• 3:18Jesse Michels?

  But yeah, what's your, what's your take on this whole Jake Barber phenomena?

• 3:21Speaker 01

  To start, the, the video on the News Nation special isn't even, that wasn't taken by Jake. And I think that was rather rushed and overhyped, just like you said, you know, Dr. Nolan came out beforehand, said people will be very happy with this. I don't think anybody was happy with that. But the whole Jake story for me goes back to investigating Michael Herrera. Way back in the day, I think this was like February of 2024, I made a video on him and Jonathan Wiegant. And anybody unfamiliar with Jonathan Wiegant, he was a Lance Corporal in the Marines who claimed in 1997, while stationed in Peru under Operation Laser Strike, that he encountered a crashed. UAP, um, kind of large egg shaped featured some ubiquitous features that we see in other retrievals.

• 4:04Jesse Michels?

  Where's Operation Laser Strike?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Operation Laser Strike was an anti narco operation in Peru. So

• 4:09Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  there were like, uh, ground based radar systems from US intelligence to track like drug running planes and so forth.

• 4:15Jesse Michels?

  And what year was this?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Ninety seven.

• 4:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  And so Jonathan Wagan, uh, Lance Corporal at the time, basically was sent to, uh, kind of investigate a crash of an unknown, possibly foreign craft. And he and two other Marines, one Sergeant Allen and another person, found a crashed craft. Uh, it, it, the story is super interesting because it, it features like mother of pearl effect on the, the skin of the craft, liquid coming from the craft.

• 4:38Jesse Michels?

  Explain what mother of pearl effect is.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Kind of like oil on water, um, something that, that Jake and others also kind of described, unique features of the shimmering of, uh, kind of the craft skin. And also Wagan spoke of what he assumed to be bodies in the craft with kind of a, an arm hanging out of the craft. He's only ever done two interviews. One in two thousand and one for Stephen Greer, one in two thousand and twenty-three under, I think, Dan Willis.

• 5:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  And so he is a, a really interesting person.

• 5:07Jesse Michels?

  Are you touched with him?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. Jonathan Wagan is one of the nicest people I've ever met in my entire life.

• 5:12Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Uh, he, he's a really good guy.

• 5:14Jesse Michels?

  Do you find him beyond reproach as a person?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yes, I fully believe Jonathan Wagan's encounter.

• 5:19Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  There's small details that kind of, uh, prove to aid in other research. Uh, the reason I covered him and Michael together in a video, besides just the fact they were Marines is they both talked about a team present. Of course, in Michael's case, he talked about, uh, a human made craft that he encountered, but.

• 5:36Jesse Michels?

  Let's, yeah, let's back up real quick. So you're saying, so Wagan's this Peru case. And then just for the audience, Michael Herrera is this case in Indonesia with this marine unit, right? And they, uh, see this sort of, I guess he calls it Vanta Black.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:50Jesse Michels?

  Uh, uh, uh, eight gun shape that which Jake Barber describes as well. Uh, craft hovering above the treetops. He, he kind of closes in on it. And then this like really elite paramilitary unit then basically takes his, his whole unit into, into, into sort of custody.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:07Jesse Michels?

  And, um, kind of, uh, uh, reprimands them. And then he thinks that this whole thing is part of some sort of psionic asset trafficking scheme where, uh, UFO legacy programs are actually taking people in third world countries like Indonesia back. To the US in order to summon craft. I mean, the whole thing.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Well, initially, he thought it was human trafficking and and we'll get into this in a few minutes. It was when he gave his testimony at when Michael Herrera gave his testimony at the 2023 Stephen Greer National Press Club Show. That's when Jake Barber was sitting in the audience and said, I know about this and contacted Michael.

• 6:46Speaker 04

  We backchanneled it. That was us. We backchanneled that.

• 6:49Jesse Michels?

  That was you.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  That was me.

• 6:50Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  But in Michael and Jonathan's encounters, so Jonathan said he saw an extraterrestrial craft or a non-human intelligence craft. Michael has stated, unlike the air report, which lies about this, that he saw a human-made craft. However, there are some similar elements in both aspects. The crash recovery team in Jonathan's story, some of them wore DOE-lettered rain jackets. And there were other seemingly military operators in black fatigues. They spoke with American dialect, but featured no insignia. This was the same thing that Michael described. Michael described a little further by stating that these men back in 2009 had really advanced M4 rifles with, you know, beautiful rangefinders and.

• 7:30Jesse Michels?

  They had bioscanners.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of like what he described to be like a modern cellphone to kind of scan their identification and so forth. And so there were some very similar elements, and that's kind of why I covered those two people together now.

• 7:42Jesse Michels?

  And that's pretty wild, right? In 2000, what was it?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  2009.

• 7:45Jesse Michels?

  Nine?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's like, you know, pretty shortly after the iPhone was released. So and then so do you have any sense of what these elite, you know, paramilitary groups like who they're working on behalf of? Is it UFO Legacy Program? Is it the Department of Energy? I know that's been speculated at times or?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  I've reached, I think they're two different teams, to be quite honest. Because Jonathan, so Jonathan described a team of guys in camouflage with weapons, the black fatigues, sorry, DOE rain jackets and also men in hazmat suits. So this must have been a specially designed crash retrieval team to contain biologics, spillage, possibly hazardous materials, you know? If you analyze other cases in history, the 1974 Koyame alleged crash and some of the majestic documents, there have been occasions where toxic elements have seeped from from crash retrievals and so forth. But I think this is likely a DOE NEST team, nuclear emergency search teams.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  This is kind of a almost semi-private institutions. I mean, back in the day, these NEST teams, which were kind of elite operators sent to. Deal with anything that involved nuclear technology or nuclear secrets. This was comprised of various specialized operators and also received help from contractors like EG and G. We know EG and G from the Wilson Davis memo, from the story of Bob Lazar, Edgar Fouchet, so forth, Seapton and UFO lore.

• 9:09Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  It seems like Michael, the team he was dealing with, is the same team that Jake Barber is familiar with. And this is like a deep, black, former JSOC, Joint Special Operations Command, tier one operators, a former Delta, a SEAL Team Six, intelligence support activity, 24th STS. And these guys are bad eggs who are okay with hurting people. Then this is likely strictly private teams.

• 9:36Jesse Michels?

  And who, so who does it roll up to? Because this is, I was trying to talk to Jake about this and it's like, there's an ongoing FBI investigation, so he can't say much. And then I did get him to say, well, you know, you could probably guess, you know, if you had two guesses on the aerospace prime contractor front, like, you know. Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievers?

• 10:01Speaker 04

  Um, look, man, if you took two guesses, you'd get both of them right on the first try.

• 10:07Jesse Michels?

  There you go. And that, so my guess is, this is me talking, would be like Lockheed and Northrop, but like, there's this other element of like Department of Energy, like who in the government does this roll up to? You hear stuff like, the CIA's Director of Science and Technology, you know, somebody like Glenn Gaffney would be involved, and back in the day, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence was probably involved in this sort of stuff. But who's in charge from the government perspective now?

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Gosh, that's a great question, and I think it's probably a very small, small portion of people, I think, like you talked about, elements of DOE and intelligence, CIA, and I think even more so than CIA modern day, the National Security Agency, NSA.

• 10:50Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  We know that the CIA deals with human or human intelligence.

• 10:54Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  And we know the NSA deals with SIGINT, or Signals Intelligence. As far as why I also say the NSA, so in my projects, I use as much publicly available research as humanly possible. I don't really like to say, well, a source told me this, a source told me this, even though there's, you know, quite a bit of people I talk to that, you know, will never make it on a video, or never reveal their identity public. But this individual was in US Army Office of Public Affairs. He served in the mid 2010s and he said, like, I'm not really afraid of the CIA, but what I'm terrified of is the NSA. So I think if I had to wager, the elements of the NSA pulling a lot of strings.

• 11:32Jesse Michels?

  Well, the sort of public facing review group, you know, the All Domain Anomalies, you know, anomalous research organization or office, or I always screw it up.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Organization.

• 11:42Jesse Michels?

  Whatever, you know, the main, the main sort of outfit studying UFOs from a public, you know, perspective. The new director was a former director of the National Security Administration, the NSA, John, John Kozlowski. And so it does beg this question, you know, yeah, how much of this is, is, you know, I often think that the overrated elements of UFOs are just, just focused on like meta-materials.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:08Jesse Michels?

  You know, that's like the tip of the iceberg.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:10Jesse Michels?

  And then actually it's this way deeper sort of thing around like human like signal, like the fact that we're like probably getting downloads and stuff. And actually there's a book called Above Black.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:22Jesse Michels?

  By a guy named Dan Sherman. And he goes, he's like sort of recruited into this like nondescript, you know, NSA building. And I've heard some from an extremely credible source, high open government, where if I were to give you this person's title, it's just completely beyond reproach, saying that that program probably existed. He, so he's recruited to this like NSA, you know, nondescript building and basically told to do all sorts of weird mind matter experiments, like collapse a sine wave. He's given these like binaural beats and then like, basically he's used as like a sort of, you know, human antenna for like alien signals. And it's part of this thing he calls Project Preserve Destiny.

• 13:06Jesse Michels?

  And he says that he's genetically been manipulated in the womb and more and more. I interviewed yesterday a psionic asset who was recruited through the gate program, through these gifted student programs or whatever. And so more, I think more and more is coming out of the woodwork around like. Kids and gifted people and like clairvoyance being approached at a very young age for downloads and signals that they're getting. And this guy named Andre Puharich, who I believe he wrote a book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. And he had these space kids back in the day where he'd recruit all these kids to upstate New York and he had this Roundtable Institute in Maine.

• 13:45Jesse Michels?

  And it was the space kids were meant to basically get downloads from and and Star Trek came from one of these downloads. The Gene Ronberry was inspired by this woman named Phyllis Schleman, Phyllis Schleman, Schleman, I don't know, Phyllis something. And that's sort of inspired all of Star Trek. And and EG and G, I think, actually picked up a lot of the work there. And so it's super fascinating.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  That's similar to like Tim Taylor, right? He said some of the ideas for his businesses came via like unknown downloads to his his head. Isn't that what Diana Pasolka has kind of said around him and his work?

• 14:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that he engaged in protocols to basically download all sorts of information. And and you know, he, I believe, started a biotech company called Vivek's Biotech and sold it for 88 million bucks or something crazy like that. And he claims that a lot of that was derived from downloads that he got. And and I spoke to him for a very brief period of time over the phone once. He sort of disappeared on me after that. And, you know, his whole thing was like, you know, don't use your phone and tap in and like, you know, and it all felt like, on the one hand, cliche, but maybe actually really fundamental, important advice as far as, you know, being able to gain access to, you know, better, better stuff or whatever from, I don't know, the whole thing's really trippy.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's been an interesting year so far, right? With all kind of the mention of of psionics. I mean, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people. When I when I speak for myself here, I don't really like to use the word nuts and bolts. I think it's super cliche and overplayed, but kind of my focus is in legacy program research, crash retrieval, reverse engineering, stuff like that. So the whole psionics territory with with Jake and stuff is still uncomfortable territory for me. But there's still so many lines of research and stuff I do that hearken back to this. One example is Philip J. Corso. I recently did a project on Corso. Corso stated that in 1960, he was recruited to the US Army's Foreign Technology Division. This isn't to be confused with the Air Force's Foreign Technology Division.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Two separate things, under Lieutenant General Arthur Trudeau. Now, the Foreign Technology Division, there's no records of it. It's similar to the Army's Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit. That probably only exists through institutional record. There's no record, but in Corso's testimony-

• 16:08Jesse Michels?

  Which, by the way, we know that existed.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 16:11Jesse Michels?

  The Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit. We know that that existed, which is crazy. We knew that a group named that existed between, what, 47 and 50 or something?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, 47 to 50, and that was first confirmed in 1986 to UFO researcher William Steinman. And in the majestic documents, there's an IPU report, Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit Report, and an IPU field order, two documents, still disputed, but-

• 16:32Jesse Michels?

  So those are disputed, but the Steinman thing, I believe Steinman contacted somebody in the federal government to gain more access. And they basically said the records had been deleted.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that it only existed in institutional memory.

• 16:44Jesse Michels?

  That's right, but it existed. And so that is, that's just so fascinating.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And, you know, I'll get back to Corso, but, you know, maybe we'll talk about the IPU documents later, because that actually talks about like a crash retrieval that killed technicians at Sandia National Labs because of the danger of the crash. But, so Corso worked for the Foreign Technology Division. This is not in dispute. You can look through his official military records that said he was the chief of the Foreign Technology Division, not out of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. But the crux of his testimony is that, under Arthur Trudeau, in 1958 to 1962, we saw the golden age of Army R&D. And this is where materials recovered from the Roswell crash and possibly other crashes, maybe Aztec, maybe crash at Corona, Plains of San Agustin, and so forth, that the US Army would partner with the US industry to

• 17:30Speaker 01

  figure out how these technologies work and cede them back primarily to help the US military, and secondly, help the American people if necessary. Well, we know we never saw the American people if necessary, but it wasn't just to cede the technologies, it was also to improve upon existing technologies. But, you know, there's a lot of contention here because some of these technologies were passive night vision systems, and guys like Colonel John B. Alexander, who, you know, has made some lies about the majestic documents before, dispute this, and stuff like the transistor and integrated circuit. But I like to focus on other stuff because the golden age of Army R and D has a lot of really interesting research we can parallel today and talk about later. But Corso also states during this time that the Foreign Technology Division was trying to use recovered technology to use human brainwaves to guide ICBM missiles and ballistic missiles.

• 18:15Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, really?

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:17Jesse Michels?

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• 20:04Jesse Michels?

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• 21:28Jesse Michels?

  That's Q-U-A-L-I-A life.com/jesse for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring today's episode. That is so interesting. I didn't know he said that. That's fascinating. So Philip J. Corso wrote this book called The Day After Roswell, and he wrote it in 97?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  97, but The Day After Roswell has a bunch of fluff added by its co-writer.

• 21:52Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting. And he wasn't super happy about that, right?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Rumor has it he only had 24 hours to edit it, and according to his son, he put his hand to his head and said, "I can't believe this."

• 22:02Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting, because I was just talking to James Fox, who has an interview with Philip J. Corso. And we need to put this out. It's not public.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  No, it is. It is.

• 22:10Jesse Michels?

  Is it? He said he's sitting on three hours and maybe part of it's... I think a little bit's public.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  It's published through Greer, weirdly enough.

• 22:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so I think more can come out. And he was like, basically James Fox said, "Gun to my head." I get shot if I'm wrong. I think Philip J. Corso was legit. And so that's fascinating. He had a co-writer that might have kind of co-opted his process in some way because there is stuff in that book that's, I think, clearly false.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:37Jesse Michels?

  Like the, if you look at the tech tree around integrated circuits and semiconductors, I don't think you need alien intervention to describe. There's a, I think a Munich like patent on a transistor that goes back to the 30s.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:52Jesse Michels?

  Um, but I do think we saw this stepwise leap in, you know, interesting technology around this time, especially in material science. And I do believe the basic Roswell story.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:03Jesse Michels?

  That like some sort of, you know, this memory metal, and I believe Jesse Marcel, this air force flight surgeon that, uh, you know, may have handled this, this, you know, memory metal material and that it probably did make its way to Wright Airfield at the time, which Wright Airfield would have been the place you would have taken it because they were basically reverse engineering adversary tech. They had

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Like MiGs, Russian MiGs later on, but.

• 23:25Jesse Michels?

  Well, in 1943, they, they successfully reverse engineered a German pulse jet engine. So they were already successfully reverse engineering adversary retrieved technology. So it makes total sense that you'd take something there.

• 23:39Jesse Michels?

  And then basically the, to complete the loop on, um, Philip J. Corso, he says that that material is taken to Roscoe Hill or Hillencoder, Roscoe Hillencoder is the first director of the CIA, makes the call that, uh, Corso should be in charge of doling this out to, uh, basically civil side, for civil side use cases, you know, to, to, uh, you know, for commercial purposes. So like Bell Labs would be like the main place.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Bell Labs, Sperry Rand, which went to Funkton, its divisions went to Northrop, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and others. And so Philip Corso actually has a manuscript.

• 24:15Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  It's called Dawn of a New Age. And so for my research on Corso, I read the two side by side and went through every single difference. Remarkably different. For example, in Day After Roswell, there's a passage about how Corso intimidated a CIA director to off himself, which is absurd. And of course you, you don't see that in, uh, the manuscript.

• 24:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, they just, they psy-opted him, man. They, they, and they, and he had 24 hours to edit it.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Jesse Michels?

  What else? What else?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  The, the first chapter of the book is like a detailed description of Roswell as if somebody was there. Uh, Corso never, never talks about that stuff. He, he doesn't know what happened at Roswell. Uh, he just takes. The materials he's he's he's seen. Another example is continued mentions to the majestic documents in Day After Roswell. They're only passively referenced once in Dawn of a New Age. However, in Dawn of a New Age, Corso also states interesting stuff that he found after his time in the Foreign Technology Division. And maybe we'll get into that later because we can circle back to the psionic stuff with other like really old research we can dig into. But you know, Corso would talk about stuff like a UFO working group, which there's reasons to suggest maybe the majestic

• 25:23Speaker 01

  12 changed into that along the way. But what I wanted to say about the psionics as well is, and just kind of the mental phenomena, I want to route this back to three key players, Dr. Eric A. Walker, Robert Sarbacher, Dr. Robert Sarbacher, and Wilbert B. Smith. So this this story takes place around 1950. Wilbert B. Smith was a Canadian radio engineer who had a huge interest in flying saucers after reading The Flying Saucer Conspiracy by author Frank Scully. Dr. Robert Sarbacher was the scientific advisor to the Research and Development Board spearheaded by Vannevar Bush. Around 1950, Wilbert Smith met with Robert Sarbacher to talk

• 26:06Speaker 01

  about flying saucers because the Canadian government wanted to use sort of kind of magnetic, the Earth's magnetic field for propulsion. And he thought after reading The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, there may be some sort of connection. And during this meeting, Robert Sarbacher said stuff like, well, in the 1950, there were meetings about flying saucers. The US government studies them and spearheaded by a group of Vannevar Bush. I can't tell you what they're from or what they're made of, but we know they're not made by humans. And so Wilbert Smith relayed that in a 1950 Department of Transportation Canada memo that was then reduced from top secret to, I think,

• 26:46Speaker 01

  restricted access or confidential in 1960 something and then and then completely unclassified later. But so Wilbert B. Smith took that and met with Sarbacher and these guys again to really get involved with UFOs. And Sarbacher basically said, like, I can connect you to The proper American authorities to engage with more UFO research if you can A become cleared and B give something back. And so Wilbert B. Smith, he would later on go to Spearhead Project Magnet, which was Canada's first UFO investigation group, followed up by Project Second Story. But when he finally met again with the Americans, he learned other things such as, you know, Van of our Bush Spearhead the group, he knew that, a couple more things, but he also said

• 27:30Speaker 01

  that the US authorities studying UFOs were obsessed with the mental phenomena that accompanied UFO research. So later on down the line, there was also a gentleman, Dr. Eric A. Walker. Uh, this guy is super esteemed. He was Penn State University's president, uh, one of the smartest, smartest people of the entire 20th century. He was named in a conversation to William Steinman, UFO researcher, that one of the attendees of these meetings in the 1950s about UFO crash retrievals was Dr. Eric A. Walker. Um, Dr. Eric A. Walker would stay silent for a long time. He was first contacted in, I think, 1984 by William Steinman. He returned William Steinman's letter really cryptically with a typed thing saying like, go, go, go, leave me alone.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Uh, but eventually he would kind of meet with Steinman, another researcher named Henry Azadahel. Uh, during these meetings, he would say some interesting stuff, like he was present at the 1965 Kecksburg UFO crash. Um, and yes, that he did attend these meetings, but when William Steinman asked him about, or maybe it was Henry Azadahel, asked him about Majestic 12, he said he knew about Majestic 12, he'd known about them for 40 years. And he retorted with a question saying, what do you know about ESP, extrasensory perception? Unless you know about-

• 28:42Jesse Michels?

  I think he said the sixth sense specifically.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you would never be let in.

• 28:46Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Well, it was almost, not only you'd never be let in, like you can't even comprehend-

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:52Jesse Michels?

  The reality of it. It was, and I think it was a Don Quixote reference-

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, chasing after windmills.

• 28:56Jesse Michels?

  Chasing after windmills, which that's always stuck with me. It's like disclosure isn't this file that you can just give to somebody. It's like, I can't even tell you, because you're like, you're literally like unable to cognize what I might be able to, you know, share.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:11Jesse Michels?

  Um, that's, it's just so fascinating. And, and so, and then just to, to add corroboration to the first thing you were mentioning with the Sarbacher, Wilbert Smith connection. Not only did he run, you know, research and development, you know, under, under Van Evar Bush, he was head of Washington National Labs.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:27Jesse Michels?

  He was this like atomic energy expert at the highest level in the US. And he was kind of scrubbed, this is Robert Sarbacher, he was kind of scrubbed from the internet as well. And he was known for having like an IQ of, you know, 200 plus or something. Brilliant person. Brilliant guy. And, uh, and so he's, he's just this fascinating character who is also very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, who's this anti-gravity inventor at the time.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  You know better than anybody.

• 29:51Jesse Michels?

  Well, in, in 1956, when Thomas Townsend Brown does his, um, experiment in Paris, proving the Byfield Brown effect and that this, this works in a vacuum and I think showing some sort of interesting coupling between electromagnetism and gravity. He, uh, comes back to the US and he's picked up in a black Cadillac by Robert Sarbacher, who he's very, very close to. And so there's, there's a lot of, you know, connection there. Um, and so you had a, you had a third, so this is, so Eric Walker, Robert Sarbacher, both corroboration for this sort of ESP psionic thing. What else?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  And then another thing, um, I'm sure many viewers will know Leonard Stringfield, who's one of the greatest crash retrieval researchers, probably the greatest of all time. Uh, in the seventies and eighties, when nobody was doing this, he was researching crash retrievals. He was mainly focusing on witness testimony. In his files, so in crash retrieval status reports, one through seven, as well as when he passed on and Michael Schrat went to his archives in Cincinnati and read through the rest of his reports, he found numerous mentions of witnesses who had observed recovered UFOs and kind of cutaway diagrams accompanying the UFOs and how in certain retrieval cases, there would seem to be like a headband or a headband transceiver, uh, worn by the operators of the craft that somehow would pilot said craft. And that, the same thing Corso said, right?

• 31:08Speaker 01

  In interviews with him, he, he said that the operators of specifically the Roswell craft were part of the guidance system.

• 31:13Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  So it, it doesn't seem too far-fetched when Jake talks about, uh, an, an asset, a psionic person being able to use their mind to, to commandeer the flight controls of a craft.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  When we look at collecting data, one of the areas that we look to collect data is through a psionic asset, which is an individual who's trained in remote viewing.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  Psychic abilities, telekinesis, that type of thing.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  I'm still unfamiliar with the physics of really how to wrap my head around this fully, but it's not out of the question to me. It's, it's, it's based in a lot of research spanning back to 1960s.

• 31:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, I, I think it's the, it's the future of physics and I think it's just so like, when you have an anomaly in physics, if you can't turn it into math and you can't instrumentalize it into technology, I think it goes into this category called an anomaly and you just don't know what to do with it. And then the anomaly usually or often will get vindicated in a new theory. But until that anomaly gets vindicated in a new theory, you just have to say it's a weird anomaly and we don't know what to do with it. And so parapsychology, I think is, you know, parapsychology being the psionic sort of mind matter thing is proven experimentally.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:31Jesse Michels?

  You can't turn it into math. We're in the stone age in it, on it, and it's hard to turn into technology. Maybe inside, you know, government circles, you know, have turned this into technology, but we haven't civil side. And so I think because of that's totally stigmatized. But if you look at other examples in the past, like black body radiation, you know, in the 1860s, or the orbit of mercury, which was not described well in Newtonian paradigm, you needed Einstein to describe it. Until you get the new theory, you just don't get vindication for the anomaly. And so that's, that's my take on it. And it's not like physics outside of that branch has been productive at all.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:08Jesse Michels?

  In the last 70 years. Like it's, it's actually been extremely unproductive.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Well, who knows what sort of progress has been made that's been kind of kept under wraps. You know, we have SRI and SAIC with the Stargate program. And you and I have a personal experience with Randy, who, you know, as a, as a Green Beret was at the Naval Surface Warfare Center crane, went underground via contractor SAIC and was shown technology that purportedly responded to human consciousness.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  We get under there, door opens, we go through a security type checkpoint. I remember the first thing that stood out to me was that the, it was significantly more modern than everything up top. And that, that was odd.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Now, anybody who's saying that the Navy hasn't studied this stuff is, is. Not fully knowledgeable on the subject. Going back to 2011 and 2012, the Navy, the ONR specifically, Office of Naval Research, was publishing studies on a sixth sense within humans. So the Navy, SAIC, SRI, Stargate, all of these guys are pretty interested. I mean, we have US Army Inscom General, Albert Stubblebine, who wanted to basically cognitively enhance soldiers. The movie The Men Who Stare at Goats is made after Stubblebine.

• 34:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, after Stubblebine, Lynn Buchanan, and all the, the whole Stargate program, which was, ran from 1972 to 95, and systematically, you know, kind of employed these psychic spies, which would gather intel, which was hugely consequential for the United States. I just interviewed, actually, Joseph McMonigal, who figured out this, you know, novel Russian submarine, I think it's 78 or 79, and that was extremely critical for, you know, the US during the Cold War. And he was thanked at like the highest level. I think Robert Baker actually was like, sort of very against his intel to begin with, and then he realized that it was sort of vindicated after, after McMonigal

• 34:57Jesse Michels?

  sort of figured this out. And he won the Legion of Merit due to, you know, the very productive activity he engaged in. So I do think the Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence organization in the US. It goes back to the 1890s, way pre, pre National Security Act, and CIA, and NSA later, like, pre all of that. So, I agree. And for the audience, because they're probably drinking from a fire hose of facts right now, Randy Anderson is this amazing Green Beret, who you introduced me to, who is a, you know, really, just a, I think, a war hero. I think both you and I have heard offline of stories around his deployments to various countries,

• 35:40Jesse Michels?

  that he wants to lay low on, because it's not the Green Beret way, you know, he doesn't want to brag about anything.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  It's not the SEAL way.

• 35:47Jesse Michels?

  But, you know, there's a number of people in his graduating class who've, who've died. He's gone through a lot. And, um, yeah, he was stationed, he was an 18 Bravo Weapons Sergeant, you know, an expert on all various weapon systems, and he was taken underground to this deep underground military base, which we know exists, like, across the country.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  That's not a question. Yeah, that's not a question, and that's a fascinating topic to get into as well. And once you talk about Randy, we can, we can absolutely get into Dums.

• 36:13Jesse Michels?

  Well, I just want to hear you, because... You know, there's so, I got a lot of flack for that video and I, I've, I've spoken to his colleagues. I've spoken to, you know, uh, two of his Green Beret buddies now.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:27Jesse Michels?

  I have their DD 214s. Like, you know, I know a little bit about them and their background and like, I know that Randy is not lying and there are people out there on the internet questioning his service, which is insane and, and I honestly shameful.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:41Jesse Michels?

  You know, if, if there's anything substantive, you have to say there or on the testimony, fine.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Because he also has pictures of him at Crane.

• 36:48Jesse Michels?

  It's absurd.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  At the year, right when he saw the technology as well.

• 36:53Jesse Michels?

  He's a war hero. You just don't, don't, you know, that's insane. Um, and then yeah, there are questions he has about his experience, you know, the off-world technologies division like, like he doesn't know what that was, that human technology was that, was that, you know, non-human intelligence, you know, tech.

• 37:11Speaker 05

  After that, we moved on down another hallway and got into an area that had a marking on the wall and said off-world technology.

• 37:21Jesse Michels?

  Said off-world technology.

• 37:23Speaker 05

  That, yeah, that was, that was where the weird shit started.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  So yeah, we go into, into the room and, uh, the one room, these significantly higher level of technology, like the lighting even looked, you know, everything was just, it was more, uh,

• 37:45Speaker 05

  everything was, it was just a different vibe, man. I don't know how else to describe it. Like I said, the lighting was different. The walls had like, maybe I would assume some type of Faraday material. Like everything was just a higher level of, of detail, you know?

• 38:00Speaker 05

  The first object was a metallic basketball sized sphere.

• 38:07Speaker 05

  And it was above a podium and it was looked like it was just levitating above the podium.

• 38:13Jesse Michels?

  Levitating above the podium. What makes you think that that was non-human?

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Well, A, I don't, I don't think it's a valid criticism as well to say that because there was some sort of sign that labeled off-world technologies division that that's completely nonsensical.

• 38:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  His story. I've seen that criticism leveraged around and uh, how do you like, that's a, that's quite a baseless claim to make that a, that a division would not be named. Sure, it may seem a bit strange, but we're talking about UFO legacy programs and deep underground military bases that's, that span the continental United States. Uh, so that's not an accurate criticism to me, but the technologies Randy saw, the, I want to focus specifically on the sphere that he said reacted to human consciousness. There is a mutual friend of ours that has observed that as well.

• 38:55Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And that is Jordan of Skywatchers.

• 38:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  If, if we can talk about that.

• 39:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  When he was involved in the gate program as a late teen, uh, intelligence or military brass and, and suits and, you know, eggheads brought in a case, opened it up and there was the same exact sphere.

• 39:13Jesse Michels?

  That story continues to pop up.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:16Jesse Michels?

  It's either a sphere or a piece of metal and they want to see, I just interviewed somebody yesterday and I can talk about this because it's going to come out. This guy Shane Frakes. Old Vet Symposium on Twitter and he talks about being shown a sphere. And so it's the same thing, shown a sphere and seeing how the person would react and if they have some sort of psionic connection to it. And it's kind of the same thing as the Jake Barber story where he, he, he locks on mentally to, in this case, the Aegon craft, but there is a mental connection. And so that, that is, and then there's SAIC, I believe is on record studying quote unquote psychotronic technology. There's like a long history.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  They coined their own terms for like telekinesis and psychokinesis, uh, when they kind of bought up the research from SRI. So SAIC took it and ran with it.

• 39:59Jesse Michels?

  And they were operating Stargate, the psychic spy program in Palo Alto, like at the end of its existence. So, yeah, there's a, there's a lot of history there that just corroborates where if. You don't know the history. You're gonna hear this Green Beret saying, I saw a sphere levitating in front of a podium and I'm mentally locked onto it. And you're gonna be like, that's fucking crazy.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:19Jesse Michels?

  But you need to update your priors and like actually dive deep into the, the, the history of this stuff, which, I mean, you're like the tip of the spear on, but I, I often feel like I'm out on an island where you have very few people to talk to who like get, who don't realize that this stuff actually isn't crazy. If you're engaging in solid Bayesian reasoning, you, maybe you have to think probabilistically and it's not, you know, a hundred percent, this is definitely real or whatever, but like it, your base case is that it actually is real because there's, there's a lot of evidence around it.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like the other testimonies we mentioned too, are incredibly interesting. The story with Jordan, he and I spoke about that long before any research with Randy was ever made public. So initially, when I made contact with Randy, I went around kind of looking for any other story that may involve some sort of sphere, some sort of basketball sized metal uh, that might interact with people. And this also like almost hearkens back even to how we opened up with the story of Jonathan Wagan. When he got in close proximity to the crash craft he saw, whether it was the beans or the craft itself, he felt an overwhelming sense of, of calmness and communication is he, in his head. And we hear that from Jake Barber as well with, with the eight gun.

• 41:30Jesse Michels?

  You hear it in pretty much every alien abduction account is this sort of mental telepathic connection. And I, I do find it interesting. Certain people are down for like breaking exotic physi, you know, breaking physics in the form of exotic flight principles and like meta materials. But for whatever reason, so that like breaks our reality there, but they're not down for the mental thing. And it's like, why is that a bridge too far? If you've crossed this bridge, this bridge is crazy. So you have to open up, you know, all possibilities at that point. And again, think probabilistically. So maybe that, that second bridge is slightly lower probability than the first bridge. But I think people don't realize just how limited their thinking is around a lot of this stuff.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like what we talked about, like my research mainly focuses on legacy programs, but I can't discount. The research done at Stargate, the psionic stuff, I can't leave that out of the equation. I still need to study it always when it arises.

• 42:22Jesse Michels?

  Of course, yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  And, you know, and sometimes those bleed over into the realms I study as well. Cause you know, we were talking about Stubblebine, who was interested in psychic spies. Then on the other hand, Stubblebine also has really interesting research into like UFO crash retrieval and legacy reverse engineering programs. So on one hand, he's kind of engaging with the more psychic aspect of the phenomenon. On the other hand, he's dealing with the really tangible program level stuff. I mean, Stubblebine created the US Army NSCOM Intelligence and Security Command's Special Operations Unit, the Intelligence Support Activity. And I think 2002, right around the time the CIA OGA was created, the Intelligence Support Activity, which is a really, really like clandestine secretive combat group,

• 43:07Speaker 01

  kind of like the CIA soldiers almost, was brought over to JSOC, the Joint Special Operations Command. And if we adhere to some excellent reporting by Chris Sharp and others, the CIA OGA and its creation in 2002 and JSOC are utilized to perform crash retrievals and so forth.

• 43:21Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Yeah, yeah, there's a JSOC continues to come up, you know, as like, they sort of go in, you know, and is how, what's the connection between Delta Force and JSOC? Is there?

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Delta Force is a unit in JSOC. I think it's, it's the 24th STS out of the Air Force, SEAL Team Six out of the Navy, Delta out of Army and ISA out of Army as well. There might be another unit or two. I don't want to butcher that, but those are some of the primary units.

• 43:47Jesse Michels?

  And my buddy, Matt Pines, made the connection that Lou Elizondo was actually part of this group called Gray Fox.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:53Jesse Michels?

  Which is, you know, deep military intelligence, but specifically it's like going into extremely sensitive sites, you know, for JSOC.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:01Jesse Michels?

  Um, and so, you know, he might know a thing or two about UFOs from that, not just the OSAP, ATIP, you know, whatever that experience was around 2007, 2012. So.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And another interesting thing about Stubblebine, when we're talking about him, in the memoir, Dawn of a New Age by Philip J. Corso, Corso stated he learned that in 1986, there was a group created called the UFO Working Group, which was created to study and kind of manipulate UFOs, reverse engineering and so forth. And this was funded by the leader of US Army NSCOM, which is of course Albert Stubblebine. And. To top things off, to make it even more interesting, so that's 1986. In 1984, Stubblebine left the US Army. He then went on to serve as like a chairman or a board member of BDM, which was a defense contractor bought up by TRW, which was then bought up by Northrop Grumman. But in 1985, Albert Stubblebine and BDM at their corporate headquarters in McLean,

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Virginia, created what they called the Advanced Theoretical Working Group.

• 45:00Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Which was a large kind of, which was a large event classified with DOE controls to study UFO reverse engineering and crash retrieval. And we have the famous notes by Oak Shannon.

• 45:11Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Which resulted from that.

• 45:12Jesse Michels?

  Oak Shannon, who was a Los Alamos project manager, very high up. You had, I believe, like Ferris Williams, Kenneth Shoulders.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  John B. Alexander.

• 45:23Jesse Michels?

  John B. Alexander, Hal Puthoff, guys like that. Was Eric Davis part of this?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. He's always, he's always popping up in the same circle.

• 45:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's clearly this sort of working group to figure out like the physics around UFOs. And I think, according to Oak Shannon, there were some even spookier people who would never speak and they'd just sit in the room and they'd sort of gather intelligence on this stuff. And then when Greer started his kind of whistleblowing efforts where he started to attract, this is Stephen Greer, Dr. Stephen Greer, started to attract all these people coming out of the government and speaking to him. And he starts to promote this sort of CE5, like, you know, getting into contact with the UFOs, attracting them, whatever. Stubblebine and John Alexander show up around him, and I believe Stubblebine offers him a big sum of money.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:05Jesse Michels?

  To, to like join legacy efforts or like join the program or something? What's, what's the story there?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  So I, I think this, I think because of Greer's own ego and like I have my feelings about Greer, both pros and cons, he really, he likes to frame this as, oh, Stubblebine offered me $2 billion to shut up and talk about UFOs. But I, I think according to documents and emails on the DPI archive, that $2 billion, which still is an egregious sum of money, was to purchase Stephen Greer's institution, CSETI, and integrate it into Stubblebine's work. So it wasn't just to buy off Stephen Greer, it was to basically purchase his whole institution. And this was in 1992.

• 46:46Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy. So what do you think was so valuable about what Stephen Greer was doing in 1992? That would, I mean, maybe that was a fake offer or like?

• 46:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if that's real, but the real meat of the Greer saga and the Greer information starts to pick up around 97.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  It's really hard to track down what Greer was doing in pre 1997.

• 47:09Jesse Michels?

  But he was a doctor?

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a practicing trauma doctor, I think in an ER. I don't really know how he got interested in the subject, but he does say at the age of 18, and he said this in his 2024 September event, that he was contacted by like a cosmic intelligence and told to basically save the world.

• 47:26Jesse Michels?

  He's brought a lot of exposure to the UFO world and he should be really vindicated and he's worked his ass off. But um, yeah, it can be weird vibes, I think at times.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  I think there was a really big shift in Greer. So, uh, you know, he talks about his archive release, the DPI Archives, Disclosure Project Initiative Archives. He says it would take somebody two to four years to go through it. That's nonsense. I've gone through the whole thing like eight times. But so in 1997, I don't know what Greer was doing before that. But in 1997, UFO researcher Bill Hamilton, William Hamilton III, who wrote the book Cosmic Top Secret, I talked about in relation to Northrop Grumman, he had been in contact with Greer. And this UFO researcher, who I think is one of the most underappreciated people in the entire realm, he introduced Greer to various witnesses that would feature on the 2001 Disclosure Project, National Press Club event where various government and private sector whistleblowers would speak.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Some of these included some redacted names who I've come to learn about those people. They're not public. And then Mark McCandlish and Brad Sorensen.

• 48:28Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  The two primary witnesses, Brad Sorensen being the primary witness of the 1988 Norton Air Force Show, where an alien reproduction vehicle was shown off and Mark McCandlish, the person who created the line art drawings and so forth. And by the way, the term alien reproduction vehicle that most people associate with Greer was coined. By Sorenson himself and relayed in Hamilton's 1992 book Cosmic Top Secret.

• 48:52Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  He got this wrong. He said alien replicated vehicle, but even so. And around the same time, I talked about this in around Northrop as well. Greer met a person named A H. He's since spilled the name in his archive. I just won't repeat it. We'll call it A H. But A H was, I guess, a former Boeing technician. And we can see from Hamilton and A H, most of the grounds that Greer operates on today, including naming sites where programs operated, where it's Air Force Base, not really Wright Patterson, China Lake, Dugway Proving Grounds, all of these sites. And you can see direct quotes from A H and Hamilton that have made their way into Greer's research. He still is used today. I mean, Greer is a big proprietor that Dugway Proving Grounds out in Utah

• 49:37Speaker 01

  saw a lot of UFO programs shipped over from Area 51. And he always quotes that 35 to 40% of programs at Area 51 were moved to Dugway in Utah. Well, if you look at A H's testimony in 2000, the year 2000 recorded, he says the exact same thing. So Greer has really built upon, like most of us, like all of us, he stood on the shoulders of giants and important people before him. But there seemed to be a real shift when he gained that sort of popularity where Greer would really, really focus on the CE5 stuff, which can really rub people the wrong way. And I think that's really mostly due to kind of the monetary incentive around it. Like he's doing CE5 cruises.

• 50:19Jesse Michels?

  And what is CE5 sort of summoning?

• 50:21Speaker 01

  It's psionic.

• 50:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, psionic stuff.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  But I think a little more spiritual, like more focus on love and light.

• 50:28Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  And Greer's also been busted for posting photos of like cactuses and stuff and saying they're entities.

• 50:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's this mixed bag and it's somewhat unfortunate. But you, I mean, you have to express your sort of gratitude to him, but then it's also like, sometimes you wish it came in better form.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:46Jesse Michels?

  You know?

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Because I've never spoken to Greer. I've never been in contact with him. I don't plan to, but I've. Been bad mouthed by him, I know that. What did he say about you? So when Greer releases DPI archive, and I went through that and looked at all the accompanying files because with each witness ID that's redacted, a lot of the time there's emails. I would look through these and I would say like, why does Greer get to talk to these people and nobody else does? So I would spend weeks tracking people down and finding out who they were and contacting them. There've been multiple that I have, but at the tail end of 2024, there was a recent entry on the archive. This was a brand new person. This was the Army Public Affairs person that I talked about recently.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  I contacted this person. We struck up a relationship. This guy's an amazing person. But right when we started talking, he was suspicious of my motives, of course, because I reach out and I just said, hi, I found your name this way, this way, this way, because whenever I reach out to somebody from the archive, I say, hey, this is where the breach of security happened. This is how I found your name. It will not be shared. I'm not interested in contacting anybody else. But so this guy and I started talking and we hung up on the phone one day and he called me back 10 minutes later. He said, I need to like, I need to know what you're doing. I said, excuse me? He said, I just talked to Greer and he said, you're an intelligence, like you're an intelligence asset. I said, what? So apparently this guy, when we hung up off the phone, he then contacted Greer because he was still in contact with Greer.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  And he gave Greer my full name, which I would prefer if he didn't have, wouldn't have done that, but that's okay. And then Greer said I was an intelligence asset. So that's my one. And then he said you were not an intelligence. He cleared it up or he said you were an intelligence. No, Greer said I was an intelligence. Why is he basing that off of? Nothing. He's just fucking saying that you're an intelligence. Yeah. I've never talked to the guy. Yeah. I. And for the record, on record, you'll say you don't have a security clearance. No, I don't have a security clearance. I've never been in the military. I've never been in intelligence. Yeah. Graduated with a degree in engineering and I moved to.

• 52:46Jesse Michels?

  What do you, what do you, do you have like a day job or is YouTube your full time?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, like mechanical engineering, service engineering. It's, it's very boring. I'd like to move to this more full time.

• 52:55Jesse Michels?

  For, for, for what can you say?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Medical devices, formerly renewable energy like wind turbines and such.

• 53:02Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay. Normal dude.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, normal dude, but that's been my.

• 53:06Jesse Michels?

  But wait, he's gonna have a massive channel and do this full time and.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  I hope so. I mean, there's just, there's a lot of work in this subject that I think needs to be revisited because as much as I hate to say it and I'm sure you realize it as well. There has been elements of circular reporting in this.

• 53:20Jesse Michels?

  Tons, tons. And I'm sure like, you know, I've been guilty of it at times. Like I don't, I don't think you can

• 53:29Jesse Michels?

  thoroughly investigate all of this stuff and get, it's, it's all so crazy and weird. You're gonna get a little bit wrong along the way. And so like, it's, it's gonna be this dialectical process where you have to wade through the bullshit and just have open conversations. And I think as long as people think you're a good faith actor and you're like earnestly showing your thought process to everybody and you're like getting closer to an approximation of truth, that's all you can do.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:56Jesse Michels?

  Um, and so, and then just say, like admitting if you're wrong and like if somebody comes at you with something substantive, just like accepting that and incorporating it into your worldview. And I think the other tricky thing is like people can say when you cover this topic that you are shilling a thing and you can be.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Or grifting.

• 54:14Jesse Michels?

  Or grifting, which is absurd. Like I've, I do have like a company that like encapsulates my show. I've never taken money out of the company. Like I've never like made, I mean, money has come in through like sponsors and that sort of thing. Cause I do want this to be sustainable. I have costs. And like, I'm down to make money on it long-term, but like what I was doing before was definitely more of a clear path to making like a lot of money than this. If anything, I've lost a lot of money over the last couple of years. It's kind of funny like. But yeah, I don't think you can do anything else other than like earnestly kind of move forward and just be humble and cool and like people sense that and.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really, from what I try and do, I see a big gap in modern day in terms of investigating primarily legacy programs and witness testimony. Because historically, like wherever you look, wherever you look in this subject, Greer kind of has his pause in post like 1995 because even he is entwined in stuff like the Wilson Davis memo going back that far and so forth. And guys like really great researchers today like Richard Dolan, he still focuses more on like sightings and kind of flaps and encounters and so forth and what he does, he's almost the best at.

• 55:29Jesse Michels?

  Totally. Well, that's the beautiful thing about this subject is I don't view it as zero sum at all. Like I actually think you're like best in the world now and you will be like so much better there because you're how old are you? You're like.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Twenty-eight?

• 55:43Jesse Michels?

  You're twenty-eight. Yeah. So it's like you're like best in the world now, like tracking granular like legacy activity stuff. I think I'm really good on the theory side, like, like, you know, like concilience, inter domain concilience between like science and like theory and that sort of thing. And that's what I love. And then, you know, we have a buddy, Chris Ramsey, who has his YouTube channel who like to me, I think he's going to have like the biggest YouTube channel on this just because he's so, his like the thoughtfulness that he puts into like production and storytelling is just next level and his skill set there is so good that he's going to open this topic up to like a whole new massive, you know, a swath of people.

• 56:25Jesse Michels?

  And I, and I think we're all like pretty like, I don't know, we all have egos, but they're, we're pretty like team players like, and so I love that. I think that's really cool. And it's going to be like a new era of this stuff where we can just like work together and like find the truth.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's.

• 56:40Jesse Michels?

  Complement each other.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  It's really refreshing because any.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  It's really refreshing to work together because I'm sure as like everybody who's done some some research in this subject knows like any sort of disclosure is not really going to come willingly. Um, especially when it comes to uh UFO legacy program operations. So kind of working together and tackling cases and stuff like that is is really brilliant to do. And Chris is a great guy. You introduced me to him at the hearings and you know, the second he and I met, he and I were talking about Bob Lazar. He did the interview with Luigi from Project Gravitar.

• 57:10Jesse Michels?

  Yup.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  He spoke very highly of him and.

• 57:12Jesse Michels?

  Luigi's super cool. I've talked to him. He's awesome. So this is this new documentary about Bob Lazar. Bob Lazar is obviously, if you've made it this far in the interview, you definitely know Bob Lazar is.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:21Jesse Michels?

  But he is um, you know, famous for having claimed to have, you know, reverse engineered UFOs at Area 51 S4. And you know, one of Rogan's biggest episodes, this wild controversy, some holes in his background, but like spoken to Luigi and Chris and I, they've actually really helped me update my take on Bob Lazar to the point where I think he worked at Area 51 for sure.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Area 51 or S4?

• 57:48Jesse Michels?

  Uh, I think he for sure worked at Area 51, probably worked at S4.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:53Jesse Michels?

  And then I'm not sure that what he was shown wasn't shown to him deliberately. And he wasn't given high level frameworks as sort of passage material and recruitment for legacy, which doesn't make covering his story invalid at all.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:10Jesse Michels?

  It makes it almost more interesting, but to me it has to be covered through this like meta lens.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:15Jesse Michels?

  If that makes any sense.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Well.

• 58:16Jesse Michels?

  Through this skepticism, but also like there's probably some real stuff.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I've historically stayed away from Bob because I'm so biased towards wanting to believe him.

• 58:25Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  You know, growing up, I would always hear about his, his testimony. I was the first to buy Area 51 and or UFOs and flying saucers from um Jeremy Corbell and his book, Dreamland.

• 58:35Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  The more I I study other things, the more interest I find specifically not Bob Lazar, reverse engineering the sports model propulsion systems, or reading about the files and bodies and so forth, but specifically around the facility S4, which I have good reason to believe that S4 is south of or just southwest of Papoose Mountain Range, right by Papoose Lake is a is a real place.

• 58:57Jesse Michels?

  When what's what's your good reason to believe that?

• 58:59Speaker 01

  So there's a couple of public testimonies around it. There's that I don't really want to focus on, but like Dan Barish, Edward Edgar Fouché, who claimed that S4 ran the Defense Advanced Research Center, the DARs, which was found in a ARPA document in the 70s to be proposed to exist, which was an underground facility, never really proven to exist. But I've actually I've talked to one person who has been to S4.

• 59:27Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Another person who said they they won't comment on if it exists. The person who who had been to S4 said he didn't see anything like crazy or extraterrestrial. He was just went in the facility. But he did say some things that are similar to what Bob Lazar and others would say, meaning like colored pathways to show where you can walk.

• 59:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think we should all wait for Luigi's documentary, Project Gravitar, because he's told me things offline that out of respect for him, I'm not going to share. But that give me conviction that he did work at S4 around stuff that's gotten that will get corroborated in the documentary. So it's pretty cool. So yeah, I'm saying Chris, Chris has as well. And Chris is coming at this whole thing from an angle of like he's a, you know, famous magician before this, debunking other magicians. And so he comes at this whole thing through a more skeptical storytelling lens. And he thinks that there's there's definitely something, something to the Lazar story and that he he worked at S4.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if that story is true, then then that's one example of a deep underground military base with a hangar built into the side of a mountain, which is really interesting.

• 1:00:30Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Because because deep underground military bases, a lot of people associate those with conspiracies for like human trafficking or stuff like that. But those are, those are a very real concept. There's like a very rich, rich history of deep underground military bases that started in the 1950s and 1960s out of Air Force Project Rand, which eventually became the Rand Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center that is likely up to their eyeballs in UFO. Legacy programs, but

• 1:00:57Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think there's so many things that like when you talk, I'm like, we need to query this and this and that's like, why is Rand, why is Rand so?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  So one of the things that I, I talk about all the time that I think is really overlooked in um, legacy operations is everybody likes to talk about um, the government, intelligence, or military and contractors. Uh, you know, Northrup, Lockheed, Batel, the piece that's missing, the thing between them, are the federally funded research and development centers and the university affiliated research centers. These are semi-private, uh, not-for-profit institutions that are, are government-owned. Examples of FFRDCs would be places like the MITer Corporation, the Rand Corporation, Sandia National Labs, Lawrence Livermore.

• 1:01:42Jesse Michels?

  There's one at Penn State where Eric Walker was

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  That's a university affiliated research center. And those are kind of another side of the same coin. And we can talk about what I think, uh, based on some good intelligence that I, I, what I think these do. Um, university affiliated research centers are like the MIT Soldier Nanotechnology Lab.

• 1:01:59Jesse Michels?

  Program.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the University of Southern California, a creative research institute, the

• 1:02:04Jesse Michels?

  And that's another really interesting thing where I think Bob Lazar might have done something in and around the MIT.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Could have.

• 1:02:10Jesse Michels?

  Well, like that, whenever he comes up with Rogan, Rogan always says, I'll tell you something offline where like, it would make the MIT records being deleted make sense.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Jesse Michels?

  And then he can never say it off, on, online.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Could be a UARC.

• 1:02:23Jesse Michels?

  That would be my guess, that there's probably some, some interesting research, you know, that he was maybe involved in that like, cause that's from way back in the day, MIT was, you had Carl Compton, who was president of MIT, who was rumored to be shown the craft at Wright Airfield, uh, with this sort of Anderson Trust, these like, you know, CIA guys. And, and actually like be very involved in legacy UFO efforts. And so, yeah, it's fascinating. And now we have this super soldier program.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. And so, and so, so with those FFRDCs and, and UARCs, um, what I think based on good intelligence is that the US military and intelligence sources, split between the Army, Navy, and Air Force will have a program, whether that be technology exploitation, materials research, reverse engineering, or flying of alien reproduction vehicles.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  And direct connections will be made with the UARCs or FFRDCs. These will serve as the project manager, performing subject matter expertise and research and development. And that will bridge the gap to the contractors, the defense corporations. Because mo-most, as far as, as far as I'm aware, eh, most of the contractor personnel will not necessarily know what they're working on. A famous example is the infographic show whistleblower where he talks about a guy at Texas Instruments getting a piece of metal and not knowing, knowing what he's working on. It's the middle management of these companies, at the, at the contractors that generally know what they're working on. Um, like the security directors and so forth, but the FFRDCs and UARCs allows kind of one step removal between the, the, um, the military and intelligence and the contractor.

• 1:04:00Jesse Michels?

  Well, but with MITRE Corporation and RAND.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Jesse Michels?

  I, you would think of them as having kind of the top of the pyramid view on the technology. Like I think, I believe the president of RAND Corporation for many years was a guy named Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the, you know, president of Skunk Works that says, we have, you know, uh, the power to travel the stars. Take ET home and made all sorts of interesting comments, like at the end of his career, he also called UFOs unfunded opportunities. Said that we have UFOs and, and they have UFOs, you know, so like humans do and so, and ETs do. Said there was an international corporate board controlling a lot of the UFOs and that maybe we needed to take it back into the hands of the US or something. Said all sorts of interesting stuff. His son was the president of RAND Corporation for decades.

• 1:04:48Jesse Michels?

  So I find that somewhat interesting as well. And Thomas Townsend Brown, when he's doing his anti-gravity experiments, the RAND Corporation shows up, sees the experiments. They have this meeting, something changes after the meeting. Townsend Brown, his experiments just fail. Something sort of, you know, nominally like they fail, even though clearly they, they hadn't failed.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:10Jesse Michels?

  And then eh, to me, it's clear there's some covert IP transfer that occurs where, uh, his, uh, anti-gravity technology gets transferred to Northrop Grumman via his investor. Who's a guy named Floyd Odlum, who has a majority stake in Northrop.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Jesse Michels?

  And so there's, but there's something around the RAND Corporation there too.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely. RAND, MITRE, um, Sandia, you know, Sandia and Lawrence Livermore were accused by some people like Edgar Fouchet of, of actually reverse engineering propulsion for craft that would lead to like triangular ARV.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  But you also have to look at the time when a lot of these were made, specifically MITRE and the Aerospace Corporation. They were founded in 1959 and 1960, the exact time of the golden age of Army R and D under Corso, who said that there were institutions also created to study extraterrestrial technology. And if you look at what's weird and what parallels to modern day with the UARC and FFRDCs, if you look at US Army Research and Development, this is going to sound so boring to so many people. But if you look at US Army primers for research and development from the 1950s and 1960s, like read through all of their proposals, you'll see under Trudeau, when he was the chief of research and development for the Army,

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  he proposed that the Army work for kind of technology transfer and technology study with URIs, university research institutes and IRILs, I think it is, like independent research or something independent research laboratories, similar, which are similar concepts to the UARC and FFRDCs made in the 90s. So we see these insane parallels to to modern day. And of course MITRE was made out of Project Sage, which was a Lincoln Labs giant project to like make giant radar systems to to study ballistic missiles and so forth.

• 1:06:55Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's like if you were doing any secret, if we if we live in the world where any science is classified, which come on. Yeah, of course, we there that and now like it's all coming out. You have people like, you know, Mark Andreessen, Ben Horowitz go to the White House. They say, well, classify math and the AI, just like we classified physics and like, you know, Eric Weinstein, my former colleague is, you know, constantly kind of opining on like this idea of the secret science branch. It's if you have to be stupid to not think that some science isn't classified. If we live in the world where it is classified, that stuff is going on in the places where we uphold the most secrecy, which is these DOE labs.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Jesse Michels?

  And so like, I don't think it's like conspiratorial. It's like, obviously, if you're doing a high energy, really intense physics, you're probably also understanding ontological truths that the rest of the public don't understand. That's often the case, like you start to understand things about reality due to some of these experimental effects where you're breaking the bounds of, you know, our reality in some sense, you know, uh, through these, you know, high energy experiments. Like, it makes sense that UFOs show up around nuclear weapons.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:08:08Jesse Michels?

  It's high energy output. And if we live in any sort of like time bound, you know, 3D bound, like if there's anything outside of our, what we perceive, you would be stress testing that every time you set a nuke off. You just would.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:23Jesse Michels?

  So it's like, not that crazy.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  And yeah, I'm with you there. And I just think it's so interesting to try and investigate how players and the government and military

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  package these concepts and these high-energy experiments to classify them and keep them out of public view, especially when it involves kind of extraterrestrials or non-human intelligence. And for the, for the Arrow disenjoyers out there, as recently as 2024, the new Arrow Director, John Kozlowski, said that Arrow is working with both Ewarks and FFRDC. So that, that's something to blam on to.

• 1:08:58Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, he said that to Susan, when Susan Go is sitting right behind him to Gillibrand at the 2024 Arrow hearing.

• 1:09:05Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  And then, of course, when Sean Kirkpatrick left Arrow, he ran off to Oak Ridge, which go look at the FFRDC's connections there.

• 1:09:11Jesse Michels?

  Totally. Yeah. I'd be doing a lot of interesting material science there. It's not just a nuclear lab. Like, they're doing a lot of frontier science at Oak Ridge.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Many FFRDCs are owned by Batel Memorial Labs or Triad National Security LLC, which one of those three is Batel. Batel's really interesting. I mean, they, if there's any group out there that is studying actual biologics, it's probably Batel. They run some sort of biological materials lab out of Fort Detrick.

• 1:09:42Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  And also a lot of really interesting classified work out at Doug Way proving grounds.

• 1:09:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Fascinating. Yeah. And that was always, I believe, was it the HR Cross, HC Cross? You know what I'm talking about?

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Jesse Michels?

  This memo that-

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Project Stork from-

• 1:09:56Jesse Michels?

  Project Stork from Batel, where it's now clear in retrospect, and I think this is a lot due to Richard Dolan's great research, that like, you had this cleaving off of the vital study of UFOs. The public facing stuff was relegated to Project Blue Book in the Air Force. And then all the private stuff was managed by Batel Memorial Institute, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence, and was classified under the Atomic Energy Commission, which occurred later in 54, but there was a precursor called the McMahon Secrecy Act. And so it would totally make sense that Patel would have a whole lot to do with this. I believe Robert Sarbacher also told Whitley Strieber. So Sarbacher, I just interviewed Whitley Strieber.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  He talked to Sarbacher?

• 1:10:39Jesse Michels?

  He talked to Sarbacher. Sarbacher took an interest in Strieber.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  And when he published Communion?

• 1:10:43Jesse Michels?

  When he published Communion.

• 1:10:45Speaker 06

  I'll tell you a fairly weird story here. Stanton gave me Sarbacher's number. And then he called me back and he said, Sarbacher is waiting for you to call him. He's very eager to talk to you. So I call Sarbacher. Sarbacher proceeds to tell me all kinds of detail about the materials that he was was working on at the Patel Memorial Institute. About how when when electron microscopes became operative, he they understood that there was a molecular grid, a designed grid inside the inside this very thin material. And that was what made it so strong.

• 1:11:27Speaker 06

  And I think that's probably been extrapolated out into our military technology in many different ways.

• 1:11:34Jesse Michels?

  And so you're talking about an extremely advanced scientist taking an interest in a horror novelist's abduction account. And so Sarbacher is working at the highest levels of American military. And he takes an interest in Whitley Strieber, reaches out, wants to speak to him. And Strieber says they're about to meet up and Sarbacher dies.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, yeah.

• 1:11:54Jesse Michels?

  And so it's it's fascinating. And then again, Sarbacher is just scrubbed from the internet. But what Sarbacher, I think, told Strieber on the phone is that you had all this interesting material that Patel Memorial Institute was managing back in the day that Sarbacher was somewhat involved with. So just another piece of corroboration for this.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  And there's research to suggest that Patel also studied the like really lightweight metals out of the 1947 Roswell crash. In 1949, alongside Project Stork, they started publishing.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Information on like shaped metal alloys, night and all.

• 1:12:26Jesse Michels?

  There was like a, there was like a nickel alloy.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, titanium nickel alloys. I, I used to think that, um, Batel was kind of phased out of operations. I, I'm not quite sure why I thought this, but recently I've taken a huge interest in Batel being like one of the primary contractors out at Dugway Proving Grounds, which I think has a massive underground facility. I, I, I mean, I've, I've talked to a witness who didn't go on the 2023 career NPC, but I've talked to him and I've interviewed him and, um, he while working as a contractor for the C Martin Company at Dugway at the West Desert Test Wing in the Avery section stumbled upon a building where he saw a craft hovering in the air being tested on.

• 1:13:03Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and, and then Batel runs, Batel has a bunch of old contracts for making like enclosed laboratories at Dugway and stuff. That, that, that is really fascinating and.

• 1:13:15Jesse Michels?

  Is there a Mormon connection with Dugway? Cause it's in Utah and I think of like the CIA as being fed into by a lot, it was just a lot of Mormons. Mormons were surrounding sort of, you know, Howard Hughes.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Well, Greer likes to say so, right? But I don't know. I, I haven't been able to make that connection, but I was able to make a, a Dugway Proving Ground connection to one of your recent videos with, with James Fox.

• 1:13:37Jesse Michels?

  Oh, tell me.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  So I was rewatching your James Fox interview and he talks about the 1971 Holloman or the Holloman Air Force Base footage that he talked to filmmaker, uh, Alan Sandler, who said he saw the footage and saw beans in the footage.

• 1:13:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we showed that conversation between him and Sam.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:53Speaker 03

  What did you see on the film? Was it color? Was it black and white? It was black and white. It was black and white. And I saw, yeah, it would be a black and white print, but it was nothing other than what we ended, said in the book. We, we see this thing, this round thing. And it wasn't that stable, funny part. And it landed and a door opened and guys come up looking like they were outer space guys.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  So in 1971, Sandler and another filmmaker, Robert, like Eminem or something like that. I think his name was.

• 1:14:22Jesse Michels?

  Eminem, yeah.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were approached by two, uh, you, uh, two US military officials.

• 1:14:27Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  To make a documentary and they could include the Holloman Air Force Base.

• 1:14:31Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  Footage.

• 1:14:32Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  One of these, uh, individuals was an army or air force. I can't remember a colonel named, um. Uh, Weinbrenner and Weinbrenner was actually part of the foreign technology division out of Wright-Patt for a while.

• 1:14:42Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  So that occurred at in the eighties or the late seventies. And so time goes on. Uh, Weinbrenner would be asked all the time about UFOs because Robert Emmaneager would go back and ask him like, what, what did you think? And, you know, there's a story of a conversation where he and Weinbrenner are speaking and Weinbrenner saying like, oh, UFOs don't exist, blah, blah, blah, while taking a book off his shelf and giving him a book about UFOs. But on his deathbed, there's a lot of research proposed by like Grant Cameron and um, Anthony Braglia and so forth about uh, Weinbrenner on his deathbed saying that they house uh, dead extraterrestrials at a facility out in Utah, which of course is Dugway proving grounds.

• 1:15:16Jesse Michels?

  Oof, really crazy.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  I made that connection last night. That was fun, fun to see the Sandler to Weinbrenner to Dugway.

• 1:15:23Jesse Michels?

  Sammy, are you in touch with any UFO whistleblowers, not whistleblowers yet, people on the inside who have firsthand witnessed crafts?

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:15:33Jesse Michels?

  And anybody who has witnessed craft in a hangar in a classified facility in the US, not just seeing a thing flying in the air?

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:42Jesse Michels?

  That's wild, man.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but will they talk publicly? No. And will they discuss the full extent?

• 1:15:49Jesse Michels?

  Why won't they talk publicly? Just I do think it's important context for the audience. Like, uh, we're gonna get comments, trust me, bro, or whatever. So what's your?

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  No, no, I, yeah, I'm not saying, I'm not, I'm not saying that to like push like a narrative or say like, run with this. Like, I know people have seen this, not a trust me, bro thing. But yeah, of course, I've talked to people I take very seriously, like good friends that I've made who have said this. And um, these people are former military or intelligence. They're not contractors. I've, I haven't heard a peep from a contractor. I think that's a whole nother story because there's uh, you like government NDAs and contractor NDAs and the penalties for violating those are severe. But these um, military people are, are bound by NDAs sometimes, which usually really long NDAs, like decades long or lifelong agreements. And they do not want to be the person to violate.

• 1:16:37Jesse Michels?

  And he who've seen bodies?

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  One of them has talked about a place in which bodies are stored.

• 1:16:42Jesse Michels?

  Where they store it.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Uh, we'll, we'll save that because that might lead to uh, you know, people being able to i- identify that.

• 1:16:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, anything about the bodies and?

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  No, nothing about the bodies because I think that that is privy to their um, some, a lot of their uh, NDAs and so forth. So they, they can't talk about that.

• 1:17:01Jesse Michels?

  How do you think this stuff gets so well hidden? Like? So, okay, I think there are some really important foundational questions that the Jake Barber story brings up.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Jesse Michels?

  If you can summon these things on command, then you probably have a thousand plus. And if you have a thousand plus, then you'd expect more leakage. You'd expect more like, I saw the thing in the hangar and I wasn't supposed to, I took a photo and it's out. You hear rumors on the other side of this that we have 10 to 15 and they're like, you know, only select things. It's around atomic sites or whatever.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Jesse Michels?

  How many do we have? 10 to 15 and a thousand plus, that's a wide range. And so clearly we can't like fully attract these things at will would be my guess. Cause I think if we had a thousand plus, these things would have leaked. So do you have kind of like a mental model on that?

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  That's a good question, because if we look at Ryan S. Woods, Fantastic with Magic Eyes only, we can find over a hundred cases of UFO craft retrieval. And even if only 20% of those are true, that's still, you know, above 20. There's also claims by Greer and others that at some of these black sites, um, one to two craft are brought down a year. So I have no conceivable notion of how many craft have been brought down or why they're brought down. You know, you got guys like Philip J. Corso, who talk about the initial Roswell crash being due to kind of conflicting radio signatures messing with craft navigation. You have testimonies like the 1953 Kingman, Arizona crash where possibly nuclear testing from Operation Upshot Knothole messed with craft.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  And then you have Barber's testimony that psionic abilities can forcefully land craft or bring them down. Or they have EM weapons to target the craft and bring them down. And then there's also stories about the 1983 Strategic Defense Initiative instituted by Ronald Reagan, which was to act against Soviet.

• 1:18:46Jesse Michels?

  This is Star Wars.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the Star Wars programs. I've talked to numerous people and I talk about this all the time in my projects that this likely had a backdoor to both fund UAP programs and act offensively against UAP. So there seems to be numerous methods for them to crash accidentally or be brought down forcefully. How many, how often is that successful? I have no idea. And what sort of technology is being brought down? And in Jake's case, we have the testimony of the egg and the ate gone. And there's also the classic saucer and so forth. And uh, this technology is obviously not ubiquitous. There's, there's different types of technology. There's different craft design. One could reasonably assume then there's different types of NHI. Some manned, some not manned. I often think back to the 2008.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  I'll say this slow because it's of course very complicated, but the 2008 contractor that rhymes with Baki Barton wanting to divest themselves of a craft to

• 1:19:39Jesse Michels?

  You could say this. David Grush said this on Joe Rogan.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Okay. So 2008, when Lockheed wanted to get rid of materials to the OSAT program through the CIA office, the directorate of science and technology, Glenn Gaffney.

• 1:19:54Jesse Michels?

  And he blocked that.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Correct. He blocked that, stopped that from happening. And, you know, I have really good reason to believe that this was the 1950, this was materials for the craft from the 1953 Kingman crash. And there's also other lines of

• 1:20:07Jesse Michels?

  I believe that too.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:20:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's other lines of research to suggest that Lockheed, the only reason they were able to give this up is because they were completely comfortable in the fact that no contractor, no other contractor, no other foreign government or no US government could make any heads or tails of this technology. And that stands out a huge juxtaposition from all the other stories of alien reproduction vehicles being created.

• 1:20:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So where, where are you there? Because I think this is really important. Is like, how, how, how much have we actually reverse engineered, made progress and made these things flyable? And you've gone really deep on this interesting story of Mark McCandlish and Brad Sorensen. But I'd love to hear you. Let's, let's go over that story and then, and then I also just want to kind of zoom out and get your view on like, have we reverse engineered UFOs effectively?

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Okay, that, so Brad Sorensen, he's an, he's an industrial designer with his friend aerospace illustrator who had worked for defense contractors, Popular Science, Mark McCandlish in either October, in October to December of 1988.

• 1:21:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So McCandlish is a top aviation illustrator, working with the biggest contractors. And you hear him speak and like, the guy doesn't seem like a liar to me.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  He was, he was a genius.

• 1:21:18Jesse Michels?

  He's a super smart and like, just almost like slightly, I don't want to say autistic, but like, You just hear him speaking, he oozes authenticity.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Mark and Brad are to go to an airshow at Norton Air Force Base in 1988.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  Mark had to not go to do work for Popular Mechanics. We can actually see the the cover of that magazine he worked on. So Brad goes with some former high up official. I initially at the time thought it might have been Frank Carlucci, but it might have been somebody else he went with. The airshow's going on. There's all types of interesting stuff, you know, fighters, advanced technologies and so forth. And and then the person Brad is with brings him to a classified exhibit at another hangar and passes Brad off as his aide. This was a former like Secretary of Defense or really high up person. And there were other, you know, senators there, Georgie Brown Jr., Cranston, so forth. Mark kind of thought this might have been flown down to Air Force Plant 42, a couple of miles away.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  But after further research and talking to some people, I do think this event did occur at Norton. So Brad Sorensen is brought into a hangar where all sorts of advanced aerospace vehicles are shown off.

• 1:22:30Jesse Michels?

  So this is like a back of the house, more secret version of the airshow, only for select people.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so there's like a hovercraft. There's the losing competitor to the B2 Spirit bomber race. There's a craft called the Pulsar, which is likely a Lockheed Northrop group craft. It's an unmanned UAV, unmanned aerial vehicle. And it was designed to go at incredible speeds with scramjet technology to go super fast that could deploy like 120 nuclear warheads on its underbelly. Insane piece of technology. And this whole giant, this whole giant hangar is separated by black curtain. So eventually they go to the other side of the black curtain and that's where Mama Baby and Papa Bear are. These are three flying saucers hovering off the ground, identical in composition, but scaled to different sizes.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  What stood out to me from so

• 1:23:20Jesse Michels?

  And they these look like acorn shaped is that right?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it looks like a Jell-O mold with have a ping pong ball at the top.

• 1:23:26Jesse Michels?

  Yep. So sort of a typical saucer shape or maybe what you would see in the Keksberg crash of 1965.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Almost.

• 1:23:33Jesse Michels?

  Like a dome on top.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a dome on top. And I want to pause here for a second because historically, people have said that Mark McCandlish has relayed this story secondhand, which he has because he created line art of the craft, which we'll go into in a second. But this was not supposed to be published, what I found, and I was, I was told it wasn't supposed to be published by a person. But I found an original interview from, I think, 1990 with Brad Sorensen and Bill Scott of Aviation Week and Space Technology. So for the, no longer is this a secondhand retelling. No, this is straight from Brad Sorensen. Okay, this is not a secondhand encounter. This is straight from Brad, who, by the way, gave me death threats. I don't like Brad. Not a nice guy.

• 1:24:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he sent you some pretty weird shots across the bow and said something about, so Mark McCandlish died a sort of strange death.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:19Jesse Michels?

  And he said something like, I couldn't protect him anymore or something, which is, and then I believe the filmmaker who made this documentary, I forget what the name of the documentary is on Mark McCandlish, which is called Zero Point, something about Zero Point.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Hunt for

• 1:24:32Jesse Michels?

  It's not The Hunt for Zero Point, but something about

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Like the story of Mark McCandlish.

• 1:24:35Jesse Michels?

  That's right. Something like that. I think it, James Allen.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:38Jesse Michels?

  He died in a weird way.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Super aggressive cancer in his autopsy report. It showed evidence of heavy metal poisoning.

• 1:24:44Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  And I've actually talked to the editor of that interview since, and he said that they had received kind of threats, like Men in Black type encounters and so forth. So.

• 1:24:53Jesse Michels?

  So somebody did not want this out.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Jesse Michels?

  And so, okay, Brad Sorensen actually has a firsthand interview with Bill Scott of Aviation Week. Goes back to the early 90s. What, what, what, what is he, or when was it?

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  1990.

• 1:25:04Jesse Michels?

  Was it 1990? So what, what does he say?

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  So he said he saw these three craft. There was a demonstration by like cats in suits with a kind of a VCR and a video showing the craft over a dry lake bed, hopping, hopping, hopping, shooting up into the air. And there were some panels pulled off of the craft and essentially the bottom portion had what looked like a giant like Tesla coil, almost like copper plates and a rotary arm to reach out. The top part looked like a removable crew cabin. This had F4 Phantom jump seat, super crap, like a handball control mechanism, which by the way, that was the control mechanism for the triangular craft and secret machines by Tom DeLonge. But that's a whole nother story. And the thing looked like, all three looked like crap.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Sorenson said that it looked like it was made by scientists, not engineers. There was no beauty in design. There was no streamlining of features. There was slag on it, chips. These things looked like they had beaten up. There were rivets on the outside. And so eventually during, the pitch for this was to garner funding because Reagan had put a lot of effort into this project with Star Wars and so forth. And the incoming administration, they wanted to see just as much advanced aerospace money put in. And so the story behind this by the men in charge was that these craft were created, were copied from technology found in a crash in 47. The technology was not given to us. It was forcibly taken.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  It was never meant to be, had. The people who it was taken from or the things that it was taken from, it was taken forcefully. And that this was our poor man's interpretation of how this technology worked.

• 1:26:45Jesse Michels?

  So interesting, because yeah, that's the rumor about Roswell. It was high-powered radar that we sort of, you know, that messed with, interfered with the flight patterns of these UFOs. And then they come down and we weren't meant to have this stuff. And then you hear rumors in and around legacy programs of like, whatever beings are in control of the UFOs like want their stuff back and are extremely angry at the legacy UFO programs. And so that begets all sorts of weird ontological questions there. But I want to stick with the core details. So what else gives you conviction that this is, that this is true and that we do have flyable? UFOs because I just think, you know, so many people are going to sort of be skeptical.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Right. I completely understand. It's such a crazy topic, but this was the birthplace of what we'll call ARV, Alien Reproduction Vehicle. This was kind of the first ever big testimony of it. And Mark McCandlish, before he passed in 2020 due to a self inflicted gunshot wound that, you know, who knows? He investigated the flux liner, what it was called ARV multiple times. He talked to an individual named Kent Sellen, who said he saw this over Edwards Air Force Base in the 70s. He has an image taken by a pilot Harvey something, I can't quite remember, over Provo, Utah, right by Doug Way Proving Grounds in the 60s. And that looks identical down to the synthetic vision system on the outside, which was an array of cameras to kind of point to a location and.

• 1:28:10Jesse Michels?

  That's what's so interesting about this. It's as if we were given this sort of intact shell. And then we retroactively patch worked on like kind of low tech.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the jump seats.

• 1:28:21Jesse Michels?

  The jump seats and the cameras. And then you kind of like make you like make this thing work. But like, it's this really low tech combined with a really high tech that we were given or something.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  But this isn't the only example. You know, there's the controversial account of Edgar Fouché. A lot of people like to discount, especially because they like to say that Fouché has been debunked due to a lot of controversy with the alien scientists that I still think is, it's really worth revisiting. I talked about it a little bit, but.

• 1:28:48Jesse Michels?

  The alien scientist is this YouTuber named Jeremy Reese.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And he had a relationship with Fouché.

• 1:28:53Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Oh, interesting.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  I've talked to the guy. He's a, he's a nice guy.

• 1:28:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, he's cool.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  But he's pretty, he's pretty critical of Fouché.

• 1:28:58Jesse Michels?

  So, yeah, what, so what's up with Edgar Fouché and?

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  So Fouché was a USAF Master Sergeant that actually has.

• 1:29:05Jesse Michels?

  USAF is United States Air Force, yeah.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  He has verifiable work at Area 51 in the 70s.

• 1:29:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  And he said whilst at Area 51, he would work on like advanced satellite uplinks and so forth, but. He would come to learn from various friends he knew, including some NSA officials of the TR-3B, reverse engineered flying triangle.

• 1:29:25Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Weirdly enough, I've talked to a guy who, former Army in the mid 2010s, who said he saw a, like a triangle craft jut off of an airway in Area 51. That's pretty interesting.

• 1:29:37Jesse Michels?

  Well, we can say this now, because I said this in my piece with Randy Anderson. Randy Anderson, you know, who you introduced me to, this Green Beret, amazing guy, who claimed to be taken, you know, to this Offworld Technologies Division Naval Surface Warfare Crane, also occasionally does contractor work at Area 51. And he told, he's told both of us now, and I've said this publicly, that he has seen triangle craft that he can only presume to use his electrogravitic propulsion, because it's not using, you know, normal flight principles, at least observably to him, take off at Area 51.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, this is even a separate guy, too.

• 1:30:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so then you have another guy.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he said that this took off during a, in the Chao Hall at A51, the, during classified takeoffs of aircraft. The windows are supposed to be lowered, nobody looks outside, but because he was with a Colonel, they just kind of looked outside and a craft took up, it didn't disturb any of the dust around it, shot up silently, just vertically straight up.

• 1:30:35Jesse Michels?

  There's so many stories about this, even Paul Benowitz, who was totally mentally screwed up with and psy-opted by Rick Doty, Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Project Beta's great book by Greg Bishop, documents all of this.

• 1:30:49Jesse Michels?

  You know, like, e- even hit, like, the reason that he got onto the radar of all these kind of like counter intel people, was because he saw this craft, you know, vertically taking off and landing at Kirtland Air Force Base, that looked to be like it was, it was employing exotic flight principles.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:04Jesse Michels?

  And we know from William Steinman, this great researcher, UFO researcher, that this guy Eric Henry Wang, who ran special projects at Wright Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, was taken to Kirtland Air Force Base to work probably on some of this exotic flight stuff.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Wang was also talked about by primary Kingman witness, Arthur Stansel Jr.

• 1:31:23Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  So that's that's funny, too. But this craft, the TR-3B, there were allegedly multiple versions, a prototype and operational version ranging from 200 to 600 feet in diameter, crewing four, serving as logistics and transportation for what could only be known as a secret space fleet. The propulsion device for the system was reverse engineered by Sandia and Livermore, two FFRDCs. The program was ran by the NSA, CIA, and NRO.

• 1:31:51Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  And the contractors at work were Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, a couple others. But here's what's

• 1:31:56Jesse Michels?

  I hate to say this, this all makes so much sense. But it just fits so well with all the other stuff you learn.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  This is the most interesting part to me about the whole TR-3B thing.

• 1:32:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Fouché says the pilots for this were plucked from the Air Force Test Pilot School.

• 1:32:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Which takes place at Edwards, which is the 412th Test Wing. There's a witness that contacted Greer in 2023 that I found his name, investigated him thoroughly in an Edwards piece that claimed he operated out of Edwards Air Force Base in Nellis in Area 51 on testing reverse engineered vehicles. I have shown you a little bit about this guy, right, including like the work he did at the Pentagon and Nellis and Edwards. And he was a director of an electronic or kind of an electronics warfare group at Edwards under the 412th Test Wing.

• 1:32:43Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  Which is exactly what Fouché said tested the TR-3B vehicles. That is a phenomenal case.

• 1:32:49Jesse Michels?

  So what does he say exactly?

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  So he said he tested reverse engineered vehicles and

• 1:32:54Jesse Michels?

  At Area 51.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  At Area 51 and Edwards. So he said in 2000, 1998 to 2002, this guy Ed was briefed into programs at while he was at Nellis under the 98th Range Wing, which became the Nevada Test and Training Range, which is pretty interesting in itself. But that then in about 2006, he was sent to Edwards to actually work in said programs as a director of an electronics warfare group. And like I vetted this guy quite well. I've tried to contact him in numerous ways.

• 1:33:23Jesse Michels?

  Would you ever put out a story with him or?

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  If he would talk to me, I would instantly.

• 1:33:27Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Instantly.

• 1:33:28Jesse Michels?

  So you just know about, you're not in contact?

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  My number is blocked by him. I've tried to call him.

• 1:33:32Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow, wow, wow.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Email him.

• 1:33:33Jesse Michels?

  You told me about it. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  I've tried to message him on social media. Funny enough, one time he accepted a Snapchat request.

• 1:33:39Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  And I messaged him, but he never got back.

• 1:33:42Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  So this is what I think one of the most consequential untapped testimonies there is.

• 1:33:46Jesse Michels?

  So many of these guys, like as soon as you initiate contact. They say a little thing and they say a thing and they get kind of excited and then and then and then they get spooked.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Well Greer did the right thing with this witness Ed. He was gonna bring him in front of Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to testify. The guy got cold feet right beforehand and I like I had this confirmed to me by elements of Senate and so forth. So this isn't just Greer saying that.

• 1:34:08Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  But this guy was supposed to testify.

• 1:34:11Jesse Michels?

  By like a Senate aide or like?

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this guy was supposed to speak but got cold feet. Why? Is that because he was threatened? I don't know. There's other, if you look through the Greer archive, there's other witnesses. It's actually really interesting to see witnesses who are going to talk to Greer and so forth, but then say they've been threatened with some really horrible crimes. Um, like really gross stuff. Yeah. That if they continue to talk will happen.

• 1:34:35Jesse Michels?

  I just don't understand why there isn't some sort of limited disclosure around these things existing because it's like in the event in which, you know, we're at par with China and Russia. Why wouldn't you let out some like basic surface area that this stuff exists like that? That's what is it? Just this bureaucratic bullshit overhang or are there real national security reasons for not letting this stuff out? And not not letting it fully out, but like, like nuclear physics is not classified. Nuclear trade secrets are. Why can't, why is that not fully analogous to this?

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  I mean, it must be even looking at the testimony of Ed. He said 2009 to 2010, he was part of an air force going public plan that was called off by a two-star general.

• 1:35:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there are all these, it was like, um, uh, you had, uh, under the Bush White House, Bush 43.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Jesse Michels?

  They were gonna do this sort of, you know, possible, they were, they were gonna, they were thinking about disclosure and Hal Putoff was part of this advisory group and they were talking about it. And, um, anyways, Bush 43, so Hal Putoff is on record saying that Bush 43 contemplated disclosure with Steven Hadley, National Security Advisor. And, uh, you know, Dick Cheney, who David Grush is on record saying, you know, uh, was one of the gatekeepers for the program. And they decided that it was too ontologically shocking to let this out and that we, you know, we couldn't publicly disclose, uh, about UFOs. And I think that turned into a group where they were reading about, like they're reading the three body problem and other things like that. So. Super interesting.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  I mean, this could also boil down to.

• 1:36:06Jesse Michels?

  And the Three Body Problem for people that don't know is a science, a Chinese science fiction novel.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  It's a great series.

• 1:36:10Jesse Michels?

  It's a great series. It involves basically like aliens controlling almost all frontier science.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Jesse Michels?

  Um, and, and sort of reality itself and being able to stagnate, but also, you know, upstart physics. And, um, yeah, your reality being sort of information theoretic and nature and the whole, the whole thing is so fascinating.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  And it, this could all, all deal with the subject of, of ARVs, but real quick, you mentioned, uh, Dick Cheney, a little interesting. Uh, factoid is there is a supposed S4 whistleblower named Derek Hennessy, who claimed he was a Navy SEAL. He wasn't a Navy SEAL. I had this confirmed. So already not off to a good start. But he claimed he worked at S4 and sometime in the, the mid nineties that Dick Cheney came into S4. But the, the funny connection there is that, um, I can't remember the exact year, but Dick Cheney was actually going around to air bases around the U.S. To close up what he, what he didn't think was, uh, uh, operating efficiently. So that's a, that's kind of a.

• 1:37:03Jesse Michels?

  So we know, we know that he was going around to Air Force bases. That's fascinating.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  But we don't, but Derek Hennessy lied about being a SEAL. So we don't know.

• 1:37:10Jesse Michels?

  So we don't know what's up there. Yeah. It's so, I mean, yeah, the Dick Cheney thing. I don't know what to think about it, but if there was a government behind our government, Dick Cheney would be Oh. The tip of the spear of that thing. Like if you read this Barton Gellman, um, biography of him, his called the, the Angler. And it's like that dude, single-handedly architected the Iraq war based on like false intelligence. And he was a representative of a lot of oligarchic sort of corporate interests. And, you know, and then Hal Burton gets the contract. Once we go, we kind of screw up Iraq and then he gets the contract. It's like, there's something to that guy where you even read George W. Bush's book, Decision Points, and you're like.

• 1:37:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, your decisions locally are being made based on, you know, certain intelligence being given to you and those decisions actually don't seem extremely irrational at each moment. And then it's like, who's giving you the intel? And it's fucking Dick Cheney and like, there's some other guys like, you know, Wolfowitz and you know, sort of cast of neocon characters, but like Cheney's at the heart of it.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he would make sense as a person at the top of the pyramid like, like Grusha's.

• 1:38:18Jesse Michels?

  Yes, yeah, person at the top of the pyramid and maybe of a lineage. I'm about to do a piece on Henry Kissinger and UFOs.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Oh, cool, yeah.

• 1:38:26Jesse Michels?

  And I think there's some connections there and it's like, if you pick a modern Henry Kissinger, it would be Dick Cheney, you know? It's like, this guy is the man behind the man.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  Right, but, so we were talking about the ARV and the TR-3B.

• 1:38:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  And according to Fouché and so forth, that's not the only triangular alien reproduction vehicle. That's, that's in kind of UFO lore. There's also, if you reference forensic artists, I've talked about this a few times, Bill McDonald, who's done a lot of work on drawing the Roswell craft. He actually worked with Robert and Ryan Wood to create the two extraterrestrial biological entities mentioned in the majestic document, the special operations manual. In 1992, McDonald met with two Northrop and two Lockheed engineers who were fed up with the secrecy and classification of their work, who kind of dictated a drawing of a triangular ARV called the XF-131 Super Sentinel that operated off of like RCS radar cross-section facilities in the Mojave Desert.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  And I've, I've talked to McDonald about this and he maintains the secrecy of these engineers to this day. I said, can I, can I talk to these people? But that design actually was featured in the first ever episode of The X-Files because I can't, Chris or some Curtis?

• 1:39:38Jesse Michels?

  Chris Carr.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, Chris, yeah. Contracted Bill McDonald to put that in the.

• 1:39:42Jesse Michels?

  Chris Carr is the creator of The X-Files.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Right, right. Bill McDonald was contracted to put that in the first ever episode of The X-Files, which was allegedly based on true stories from John D'Souza and that episode is about a triangular alien reproduction, triangular alien reproduction vehicle that's seen over an air force base. It's the same design. I've put some, featured some clips of that. That's so interesting.

• 1:40:02Jesse Michels?

  I think Hollywood has been engaging in soft UFO disclosure for 30 or 40 years through these CAA liaisons.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  We have Spielberg's new movie Disclosure.

• 1:40:11Jesse Michels?

  It's called, now called Disclosure. And I was talking to Chris Ramsey again, great YouTube channel, go follow it, Area 52. And he was like, what if a UFO is shown as part of that movie? Wouldn't that not be the best way to disclose? And like, I'm kind of, I'm on his side, like, maybe, maybe that happens. Um, and then historically too, you've had, you know, uh, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which involves Jacques Vallée and Jalen Hynek. Jacques Vallée is played as a character by Friends Watch Ruffo. You see crates that say Lockheed in Northrop?

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  No, don't they say TRW?

• 1:40:42Jesse Michels?

  Skunk Works and TRW?

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  TRW.

• 1:40:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, if they say that, then you're like, okay, they're talking about next level knowledge. Then they really know.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  Cause TRW was bought by Northrop in 2002.

• 1:40:51Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  And TRW was the contractor behind the Zodiac story, which was an alleged crash.

• 1:40:56Jesse Michels?

  So I think they do say Skunk Works and because Close Encounters of the Third Kind was, was, was, they do? Okay. I don't know.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Interesting fact about TRW, Jacques Vallée has talked about Dr. Eric A. Walker. We talked about earlier being a, on the board of directors or a chairman of TRW as well.

• 1:41:11Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow. Fascinating.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I mean, Spielberg was dialed in with, you have to go deep to talk about Skunk Works and TRW.

• 1:41:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  In the film.

• 1:41:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, we, let's look up, you know, at some point, whether it's Lockheed and Northrop.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  It's Skunk Works.

• 1:41:25Jesse Michels?

  You're sure. Okay.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, Skunk Works.

• 1:41:27Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's next level. Then yeah, he knows a lot of knowledge. Also on the Townsend Brown, who I'm sure discovered some interesting effects in the world of gravity. I'm sure of that. I, I feel very high conviction in that. And I just interviewed Carl Nell, who's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:42Jesse Michels?

  Where I'm saying again, that the, uh, this gravity technology got probably implemented in the B2 stealth bomber. And he's the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman and he goes, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. When I ask him, are there, is there anything sort of useful or applicable in the UFO story?

• 1:41:58Speaker 07

  Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Taylor Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, uh, like heretical technologies. So I'd invite people, uh, unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts.

• 1:42:11Jesse Michels?

  So there's more corroboration beyond that, on, on the TT Brown stuff.

• 1:42:17Jesse Michels?

  But where was I going with, what were you just saying? The, the?

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  TRW, Close the Cutters of the Third Kind before that.

• 1:42:24Jesse Michels?

  Oh, oh, okay. So Steven Spielberg, uh, executive produced Back to the Future.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Jesse Michels?

  And the, the, the subplot of the whole Thomas Townsend Brown story is that gravity affects time. In general relativity, gravity and time are tightly coupled and they're related. And his, he talks about time travel constantly with his family. Like that's something that's really, and if you think about it, if we were to ever engage in effective interstellar travel, it would involve spacetime metric engineering inherently. You can't get around that. Even with nuclear thermal propulsion, you get to the closest star system in 40,000 years. That's too, biologically, that does not work, right? So he's super into time travel and then you have Back to the Future come out, which is a Steven Spielberg executive produced movie. The guy's name is Doc Brown, which everybody called Thomas Townsend Brown. His name is Emmett Brown. E M E T T Brown.

• 1:43:14Jesse Michels?

  Thomas Townsend Brown is in the name. He uses his flux capacitor. Thomas Townsend Brown's experiments are capacitor experiments. And he, uh, goes back in time in 1985, which is the year Thomas Townsend Brown dies to 1957, which is when I think his experiment was first experimentally, uh, proven around, around that time at the Bonson Labs. It's the time that physics sort of went astray in the wrong direction, when I think the anti-gravity stuff went black. And so it's just, I don't know, there's so much there, uh, that, that I think begets this like greater, and then you, ET even is extremely interesting. ET and the kid like lock, like they have some sort of weird psionic connection. And you remember they're in the hospital together and ET's like heart rate is matching the kid's heart rate.

• 1:44:00Jesse Michels?

  And you have all this stuff around the psionic connection that's now coming out. You also have the consciousness connection there where the mother is walking around the kitchen and like these kids have taken, these kids see the ETs, but the mother doesn't. And like the ET is sort of like walking around the fridge and the mother doesn't see it because like her perceptive, she's closed off to these realities. Um, so like I, I, I think Steven Spielberg definitely has been fed some really interesting UFO stuff over the years.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  And was it Spielberg or Cameron that created the film The Abyss?

• 1:44:31Jesse Michels?

  That was James Cameron.

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  Okay, because that's also an interesting one about USO.

• 1:44:35Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  It's, it's interesting to see these, these concepts related in Hollywood because.

• 1:44:40Jesse Michels?

  James Cameron, Steven Spielberg and Christopher Nolan are definitely fed intense, secret shit.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:45Jesse Michels?

  They have, they have to be.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Because on one hand you have films like Independence Day, uh, which is just a bombastic action film glorified, but then on the other hand, you have very thoughtful projects like Close Encounters of the Third Kind and to an extent ET and, and, uh, as we know now.

• 1:44:59Jesse Michels?

  But even, even like not, even like where does the concept of Men in Black, Men in Black sounds quacky.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:06Jesse Michels?

  But like, if you go talk to Richard Dolan, he's a super deep UFO researcher, it, Men in Black are the, they're, they are this thing. They're in these suits and they show up after UFO abduction experiences, UFO sightings, and they often take people's footage or like, you know, swear them to secrecy. And he thinks Dolan thinks they're almost like the counter intel group of the aliens themselves. They erase your memory. And so it's turned into this like kind of jokey, funny, you know, movie with Will Smith. But like even that, like where is that derived to begin with?

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:38Jesse Michels?

  And it's just so, it's so fascinating, you know?

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  That's interesting that I, because I've heard that idea floated around before that the like colloquial Men in Black are almost like a non-human entity because I almost, I, I'd like to hear more about that because I almost stand on the other side. I, I straight up think the, the Men in Black in a sense are NSA spooks.

• 1:45:56Jesse Michels?

  So I would say the same thing, but like you meet with certain people like Whitley Strieber and other just experiencers.

• 1:46:04Jesse Michels?

  And like, these guys seem to like, have technology available to them that's not available to the general public. And may- maybe that is just like, okay, so it's like Occam's razor, it's like NSA or something, but it's weird technol- it's like implants that involve technological mediumship as Whitley Str- I've felt his implant in his ear.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:46:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I felt it. And it's the weirdest thing in the world. And he says it moves with his own metabolism. I haven't verified that, but like-

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Have you ever thought about getting that cut out?

• 1:46:33Jesse Michels?

  He wants to get it cut out, but he says it moves every time. And I've felt the thing, and it's not natural. So unless he's totally grifting and putting the thing in his ear, even though he's not really like making that much money now off of UFOs, and it happened after he wrote Communion, and like, it's like, I don't know, man, the whole thing's so strange.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  That is interesting. You know, perhaps the two are not mutually exclusive. Because there's also stories, like, have you heard of, of TREAT?

• 1:46:58Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  It's the supposed, uh, Men in Black, uh, unit out of the NSA called the Tactical Reconnaissance Engineering Assessment Search Team, which was created by Stubblebine.

• 1:47:08Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  And it's only ever been talked about by Fouchet and, uh, Hans Adams, the Crown Prince of Liechtenstein.

• 1:47:14Jesse Michels?

  So, that's come up for me, and I've never brought that up, but how, yeah. Well, how do you think that the Crown Prince of Liechtenstein, because I've heard some very interesting things about him. He seems like a really cool guy, but like, really interested in the spooky science stuff?

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  I've only ever seen his, his discussions with like Greer and the emails on the DPI archive, and looked up a few things about him and him mentioning TREAT. Besides that, I have no idea, because I would see that. And I said, Crown Prince of Liechtenstein, a small Central European company? What have you, what have you found out about him? Because that's, that's-

• 1:47:46Jesse Michels?

  I don't, I, I, I don't, you know, I, I don't know. I probably shouldn't say, because the conversations I've had are in confidence, but he seems very interesting and interested in sort of secret science. One more piece of possible corroboration of, you know, maybe it being a combo as far as the Men in Black, is I did speak to Hal Putoff recently- And I was trying to figure out, I was like, is it, is it their program? You know, is it the NHI program? Or is it our program? And he goes, what if it's a joint space program? He goes, I might believe that. Maybe there's something in.

• 1:48:18Jesse Michels?

  He did. Yeah. To me.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 1:48:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So and Hal put off is I think as deep as it gets when it comes to sort of outside the Overton window science, which is now being vindicated. I mean, he was just on a podcast in December, which is co-sponsored by National Science Foundation.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:34Jesse Michels?

  And like you had like pretty high up DOE people on the podcast and all these amazing people with all pretty impressive credentials. A former head of revolutionary tech at Skunk Works are all in this podcast. And he's talking about extended electrodynamics and gravity manipulation. And I think it's clearly this sort of limited hangout where it's like, let's partially expose some things so that people can, you know, learn a little bit more about some science that we've been sitting on, especially again, if China has caught up. You can't just, you know, throw people off the trail constantly. You need some limited surface area around it. But yeah, Hal put off did say, and you know, it's always, I love Hal. But it's always this sort of like, you know, tongue in cheek, like half speculating. So you never quite know.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  He never commits to something.

• 1:49:19Jesse Michels?

  He always goes a whole zoo of possibilities. And I was like A, B, C, and D. And then you have to decide.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  I, sometimes I wonder about how and how much he'll, he'll commit to, to subjects. Cause under his tutelage and good friend, of course, is Eric Davis. And recently, like, as you know, Missile Man, myself and others talking to Eric Davis.

• 1:49:36Jesse Michels?

  You did a great interview with Eric Davis.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  He said a lot of interesting things, but he also said some, a couple of things I disagree with. One, he said that the only FFRDC he knew of was the aerospace corporation, which I disagree with. But I think that's because he was only read into a sub-selection of legacy programs under OSAP. But he also said that alien reproduction vehicles don't exist. Do you think there's aircraft systems that have kind of leveraged technologies?

• 1:49:58Speaker 08

  Definitely no aircraft systems that have leveraged anything. And there's been no one-to-one reproduction. A lot of that fell into the psyche of, of the UFO community because of Bob Lazar. And then Brad Serenzen and Mark McCallus. So.

• 1:50:15Speaker 08

  I don't know where they're coming from and then other people kind of came out of the woodwork saying the same thing, but no proof.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Right. And I'm only left with two possibilities when I think about that. One is that he's lying. Two is that he was only read into a select subsection of programs that only overlapped Lockheed trying to get rid of Kingman materials and thus he would not know about ARV because those weren't part of the program. And I kind of lean towards, towards that explanation because I really don't agree with that assessment. And at the end of the interview, I had a little notebook with the flux liner on it. And I said, you know, Dr. Davis, you really haven't even considered this testimony of Mark McCandlish and the flux liner. And he said, but right before we cut off, well, Hal put off interviewed Brad Sorensen and we never got to talk about that more. And to this day, I want to ask him so badly about how that went

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  because Hal has spoken to Sorensen. And I just need to know how that goes. I wish Hal could speak a little bit more candidly in an open setting because he's also super cagey in the program with James Fox. And he's also kind of integral to the story of Zodiac, the alleged crash retrieval program first introduced in UFO magazine in 1998.

• 1:51:25Jesse Michels?

  What is Zodiac?

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  Got. That's a really interesting one. So in 1998, UFO magazine published a story by pseudonym Greg Halifax about Sedge Masters, a story about somebody who is brought into a UFO crash retrieval program called Zodiac. This occurred in 1988, 2001 or 2002, there's an email chain with Hal put off, Kit Green and Eric Davis talking about the Santilli Alien Autopsy Film and so forth. And Kit Green saying he saw different pictures of an alien autopsy. But then in a later thread in that email, somebody, one of the three brings up Zodiac in the Sedge Masters story. And most of this work needs to be credited

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  to, of course, Richard Dolan, who actually tracked down the very likely author of the Zodiac story and puts a lot of faith that the Zodiac was indeed a crash retrieval program and it was operated by TRW. So that's just a fascinating story how even, it seems like everything kind of post 2000 or post 1995, Hal, Eric and Kit.

• 1:52:27Jesse Michels?

  What is the core story of Zodiac? Like what is?

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  It's essentially the Majestic 12 by another name. Because the Majestic 12, for people who don't know, was introduced under. The Majestic 12 documents first appeared in 1984 in a film canister to UFO or to TV producer Jamie Shandere and this included the Eisenhower briefing document and later the special operations manual and then a whole host of other documents and this details the Majestic 12 as opposed UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering group spearheaded by Van of our Bush including Dr. Ross or including Roscoe Hill and Coder, Dr. Donald Menzel, I think his name is Von Neumann.

• 1:53:08Jesse Michels?

  Von Neumann, Jerome Hunsaker, uh, who else?

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Denzel Ward.

• 1:53:13Jesse Michels?

  Vandenberg.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:15Jesse Michels?

  Hoyt Vandenberg, Nathan Twining, yeah, a bunch of head honchos in military intelligence science.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  And so, you know, Majestic 12 Zodiac 12, 12 signs, some, some might suggest in the, the realm of UFO study that Zodiac is another name for Majestic 12, just like Majestic 12 has been called other names like the working group, the PI 40 by that guy AH we talked about with Greer. So it's a super interesting story that I, I hope sees more, more coverage because, uh, Richard Dolan has been a true trailblazer in the Zodiac story and it's just kind of like the secret, uh, retrieval team. I, so to be quite plain, after talking with Ryan Wood, I think the Majestic 12 did exist in a capacity and probably still exist today, but I am hesitant to think about like a very ubiquitous crash retrieval team. I think that there's a very wide swath of retrieval teams and retrieval operations.

• 1:54:03Jesse Michels?

  Well, there are people who I think are pretty credible who talk about this, like these continuity of government programs.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:09Jesse Michels?

  So the 5412 committee, you know, national security, you know, committee, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, that turned into the 303 committee, which turned into the committee of 40. Do you have anything to say about that as, as far as their kind of, you know, interest in UFOs?

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  Only thing I know is that John B, Colonel John B. Alexander said that the Majestic 12 was specifically a continuity of government program.

• 1:54:28Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  But I, I hasten to adhere to what he says because he lied about the special operations manual.

• 1:54:36Jesse Michels?

  He lied about a bunch of stuff.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:38Jesse Michels?

  And even in the Wilson memo. You know, the where the, so the, you know, the Wilson, of course.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:54:42Jesse Michels?

  So this is, was it 1997?

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  1997 was when the Greer, Will Miller, Thomas Wilson, Stephen Lovkin meeting took place. The briefing took place.

• 1:54:52Jesse Michels?

  Okay, interesting. But one was, and then.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  2002.

• 1:54:55Jesse Michels?

  2002 is this meeting between Eric Davis, who's again this hell put off protege, propulsion's expert.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:02Jesse Michels?

  And like exotic physics expert. It's in the parking lot of EG and G. And he's meeting with Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of Joint Chiefs, Joint Chiefs J2.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  You know. He was like intelligence for JCS at the time.

• 1:55:15Jesse Michels?

  So he should have like all exotic tech under his purview and he's extremely, he's basically expressing extreme dissatisfaction that you had these rogue groups working on purportedly UFOs who he met with.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:27Jesse Michels?

  And it's out of his jurisdiction. And in that document, that I believe was found in the Edgar Mitchell estate. In that document, it says JA is a liar. And I think JA is John Alexander.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, because John Alexander has been publicly said, oh, Majestic 12 exists and had nothing to do with UFOs. And kind of all of that before. And of course, he kind of said myths, truths about what Dr. Ryan Wood said about the special operations manual. Ryan Wood and Robert Wood did a ton of provenance research on the, on the majestic documents, getting the physical onion skin documents, putting them through rigorous testing of materials.

• 1:56:05Jesse Michels?

  So what do you think about these documents? Because they're, they're popular view, like with those kind of old school, like UFO researchers, like Robert Hastings, you know, who wrote UFOs and nukes, is that these were, this was passage material. So it was like meant to detect spies. It contained all sorts of falsities. You're giving it to this film producer who's friends with all these UFO researchers, Jamie Chandra. And then I think other versions of the Majestic 12 were then doled out in packages to other UFO researchers.

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  Because there's a whole host of documents and the, the source cannot be all from the same person. And a bunch of varying quality documents. I tend to adhere to the work of Stanton Friedman, who spent a bunch of time authenticating these special operations manual and Eisenhower briefing document with the Woods. I, I think those two probably have the strongest claims of, of real documents, as well as the two IPU interplanetary phenomenon unit reports. One of them's a seven page report that sounds very similar to the Eisenhower briefing document and talks about the Roswell crash retrieval and so forth. Later on down the line, you get a lot of other documents like the burned memo and the project Aquarius document from Lee Graham. The burned memo or the project Aquarius, one of them, I can't remember which actually

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  makes reference to project Zodiac, by the way, and like project Jehovah and MKUltra. But a lot of the earlier documents, like the Eisenhower briefing document, a lot of the dates and specific discussions line up with real events. For example, James Forrestal meeting with Truman, dates are mentioned when those two met and kind of discussed the future or the inception of Majestic 12 and so forth. If you look in the Library of Truman, Library of Eisenhower, when he's supposedly briefed, these presidents and president incumbents.

• 1:57:47Jesse Michels?

  I believe Dulles's diary recently came out and it showed a meeting with him and Eisenhower or something, and that was like a real meeting. And his diary came out after the Majestic 12 documents, obviously it'd come out, and they corroborated the information in the Majestic 12 documents. So it's probably similar to the Lazar stuff where it's like some of the stuff is just true. And then maybe true and under a different name, and maybe they were looking for spies and there was some passage material involved, but yeah, it is interesting.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  And then there were other documents like the Cutler Twining memo that is really difficult to dispute and so forth. I was actually reading on the plane over here, different validation of majestic documents. And there's just been a like a lot of mentions of majestic documents before, including a, I can't remember the general's name, but a four-star general who was asked about the documents, he said they're real, like, or the majestic 12 is real, I can't tell you any more than that. Cause I know that the majestic 12 to many sort of hobbyists in this subject is nothing more than kind of conspiracy material, right? They just think majestic 12 may, you know, not true, just.

• 1:58:45Jesse Michels?

  But if you were to simulate back then, if a UFO issue were a thing, and we had exotic materials and we were in contact with, you know, an extraterrestrial or interdimensional intelligence. You would need our best and brightest on it.

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:02Jesse Michels?

  And if you look at that list of people, those would be the, those would be the people on it.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:07Jesse Michels?

  Vannevar Bush would be heading it up.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  And then, of course, Vannevar Bush is completely unconnected with Robert Sarbacher and Dr. Eric A. Walker, as also mentioned as the head of UFO Research.

• 1:59:17Jesse Michels?

  And those guys, that's right. And then you have Gordon Gray, who was also on the Majestic. Don Menzel, who admitted, you know, he was super red in on Navy, CIA, a bunch of, you know, uh, pretty classified info and admitted as much actually to Kennedy. And Sam Friedman actually writes about this, was sort of in charge of disinfo and debunking, which he was debunking a lot of, and there's this amazing Swedish astronomer, Beatrice Villarreal. And she talks about Menzel having like deleted like all this astronomical information from like 1953 and onwards in, uh, from the Harvard Observatory.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Jesse Michels?

  And at the Harvard Undersea Observatory at the time, you had Robert Sarbacher. He was working there. And then the number, I think James Conant was the president of Harvard and he was like the number two guy, you know, um, uh, uh, the Manhattan Project at the time. So, yeah, I don't, I don't know. It's, it's hard to say, but it sort of makes sense. It's directionally correct.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's not unreasonable to think that the group evolved over time, changed names and so forth. I mean, you have in 1987 or 86 or 87, when Eric Walker is asked by Steiman about the Majestic 12 and he gives the Don Quixote impersonation. You're chasing after windmills. It's impossible to chase after the Majestic 12. The Majestic documents were first delivered to Shandere and Friedman and so forth in 1984. That's when the first documents were actually, uh, kind of received, but weren't given to like a MUFON symposium until 87. What's interesting is the documents were kind of mailed out in 84. And then if we look at the research or look at the manuscript of Corso, it kind of seems like around 86, the Majestic 12 took on a new name, the UFO Working Group and got new blood like, uh, like Albert Stubblebine

• 2:00:58Speaker 01

  and some NSA people and some CIA people. So it's interesting to think how this group may have evolved over time. And possibly it changed its name to the Working Group because it was aware of the leaks at the time.

• 2:01:09Jesse Michels?

  The whole history is fascinating. I think maybe, you know, one of the tip of the spear frontier. Longitudinal timeline assessments of like, you know, all UFO oversight is this great article by Chris Sharp at the Liberation Times. Oh, yeah. Really interesting stuff. And there's some connections you've made between Woods Hole and like, you know, some of the, you know, yeah, Crane, exactly. Yeah. And Randy Anderson's story. But I also just want to touch on, you know, he talks about how it was the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which was before the National Security Act, before the CIA, you know, was formed. They were sort of in charge of like the initial UFO, you know, custody. And I, I think we have a decent map of actually what occurred.

• 2:01:53Jesse Michels?

  So David Grush says that there's this Magenta crash in Lombardy in Italy in 1933. Exactly. I've now made the connection through some people, this woman, Pippa Malmgren, who's amazing. Really interested in the UFO thing, but she was actually special assistant to George W. Bush. She made it clear to me that James Jesus Angleton was the US like OSS person involved in Italy at the time. And so rumors are that you have this Magenta crash. And then Mussolini goes to Hitler and says, is this yours to the Nazis? Right. And then they end up working together on it. And so this Magenta crash ends up

• 2:02:35Jesse Michels?

  probably being worked on by the Nazis, which explains these like de Glaucan, you know, Yeah. rumors and Kamlerstob and sort of Czech, modern Czechoslovakia and Poland where they're working on these flying saucers. You have tons of reports around this from Rudolf Schreiber, Richard Miete, a bunch of guys at the time, along with Paul Mellon and Alan Dulles. There's a story of Paul Mellon kind of spilling the beans to his, you know, grandson who's alive now, John Warner, the fourth, about like be sitting, you know, standing over a UFO that that can employ exotic flight principles in modern day Czechoslovakia. Wow. And so you can, you kind of can come up with this thread of like the Lombardy Magenta crash happens.

• 2:03:16Jesse Michels?

  It goes to the Nazis. Maybe there's some custody where the Vatican is involved as well. Heard that, heard that from Grush. Heard that from Grush. And then it goes over to the US and then it's worked on at Wright Airfield. And you have all these Operation Overcast paperclip Nazi scientists who then that, that's part of the rush to get the Nazi scientists is to get the ones who are like that, you know, this deep on like really exotic. You know, uh, flight principles and UFO stuff. We now know Hans Komler himself, who is in charge of the blackest of the black Wundervafa programs for the Nazis, made his way to the US. And so you kind of have this somewhat consistent narrative of like,

• 2:03:58Jesse Michels?

  what happened with this early UFO crash and how the US started to get involved with this stuff. And all the guys who were involved in the early Marshall Plan and tech transfer programs, Kissinger was an army counter intel guy who was doing tech retrieval at the time. And you have other examples, uh, you know, you mentioned Forrestal. Forrestal, you know, was as well. And he was secretary of the Navy. So

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  He threw himself out of the naval hospital in Bethesda.

• 2:04:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly. Mid Sophocles poem. He, yeah.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  And the Magenta case is so interesting because Mussolini thought it was a Nazi advanced craft or a British or American advanced craft when he had his own special investigation group, the RS 33, who was like really keen on the fact this wasn't human technology and then likely worked with the Nazis.

• 2:04:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And apparently Marconi's grandson, it might be like on the verge of saying something of this, uh, uh, Pinotti, this Italian UFO researcher who's like really on that trail.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  I'd love to hear of more of a description because the only real description we have are is from the RS 33, like a disc and then grush like a lenticular shape. And that, that begs the question, when we brought over Operation Paperclip scientists, so Nazi scientists, if, um, if there's kind of a collaboration in crash retrieval groups today, and even in 2023, you had a Canadian, uh, defense member or parliament member Larry Maguire, who wrote to the head of Canadian defense, uh, wanting to bring the Canadian people up to speed on UFO programs because there was an active five eyes nation that was working together on, uh, material exploitation and so forth.

• 2:05:30Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's a scientific principle called the Kawanda effect, and it involves stabilizing basically a saucer like craft. And there's a patent, this guy's, Henry Kawanda was this guy's Romanian scientist. He has a patent on this from 1936. And I think at points he was in Vichy, France, but he basically was forced to work under the Nazis. And then he was taken to Wright Patterson to work on Project Y, which was an extension of the Avro car project, which is trying to get flying saucers to work. And so, and then William Steinman connects this with Thomas Townsend Brown and his gravity experiments where they were coordinating with Thomas Townsend Brown and wanted to see if the gravity stuff worked so they could incorporate it into these saucers or whatever that they had.

• 2:06:12Speaker 01

  I wonder how much that collaboration takes place because you know, in Grush's News Nation interview, he talks about like a multi-decade Cold War with our adversaries, we can assume is Russia and China. I think back to Jonathan Wagan's encounter in 97 in Peru. Once he sees the UFO, he's taken in by these guys in DOE's rain jackets. He's flown to a place on a CH47, interrogated for days. When he's brought to this location, this like obscure military base, there's not only Americans there, but there's Chinese, there's Germans. And so who else is collaborating on these, these projects that there's a multi-decade Cold War?

• 2:06:47Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's, that's the Lazar rumor as well, which is that like Russians were at Area 51 too. And there was sort of this co-space program. And that was always, there's, you know, this isn't even public, this is open source. In the SALT-1 negotiations, I think it's 1971 treaty, we're talking about coordinating with the Russians on the UFO question because we were worried that they'd mistake it for American acts of aggression. That's what Kennedy probably wanted to do as well. So maybe there is some sort of international space program around the UFO thing. I don't know.

• 2:07:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then we look at, you know, of course, there's a lot of drama about this, but the Immaculate Constellation report that talks about alien reproduction vehicles seen over Indo-PacCom, which is obviously Chinese territory. Like equilateral triangles with three lights seen over Chinese territory of adversarial ARV. So it's like clear they, there's similar programs going on if we have, if we have similar triangles, what sort of collaboration is occurring?

• 2:07:41Jesse Michels?

  It feels hard for me to believe that like the surface level geopolitics that we see is totally fake. Like I do think we are, you know, tensions are at an all time high with China. But it is interesting, I think in the Lazar account, it's like the Russians started to get kicked out as like tensions rose around like the development of these ARVs and so. It brings up, it hearkens back to this Carl Nell quote, you know, Carl Nell, who was part of the UAP task force with David Grush, was also deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman, and I believe was stationed at Wright Patterson Airfield.

• 2:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he was also Army Futures Command.

• 2:08:17Jesse Michels?

  Army Futures Command, and he says there's this sub Rosa, secret conflict arms race going on between us and other countries. It's been going on for decades.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, for feudalistic dominance. So that begs the question, is the ultimate pursuit, mastery of ARV, because with ARV, it might not just be the vehicle, but it might be any sort of weapon or technology that can be exploited as weaponry. Remember what Randy said when he was taken to crane, that the technology was considered weaponry due to an electronic discharge during retrieval.

• 2:08:45Jesse Michels?

  Well, if you think about what the Manhattan Project was, it was all about payload potency and magnitude. And it's like, how can create a bigger bomb? And then at a certain point, when you're at the Zar bomb level, or whatever, you're at, you know, 80 megatons plus, it doesn't matter. That's too big for any target. You have tons of Zar bombs. It's like, it's, you know, game over for the world. At that point, it becomes, the second Manhattan Project becomes about payload delivery. And it becomes like, who can deliver this payload faster and stealthier? And, you know, it was ICBMs, and then it was stealth fighters, and, you know, and so, it's, that's, it's a scary world. And I almost don't even love talking about UFOs in this context, because I think it's the sacred ontological metaphysical

• 2:09:29Jesse Michels?

  thing, which should really drive people.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  Weapons.

• 2:09:31Jesse Michels?

  But I do think that that that might be a reality, driving some of this stuff.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I completely agree. I think back to the 1988 Norton Show as well. When Brad saw the pulsar craft with the 121 nuclear warheads, the guys were raving on about how this could destroy Russia in like 20 minutes, raving on about that. And then on the other side of the curtain, you have saucers that utilize zero point energy systems. That could, you know, drop a nuclear payload in a quarter of a second, or... The zero point energy systems can be harnessed to create more devastating effects than even nuclear warheads.

• 2:10:05Jesse Michels?

  Given that, that this technology is probably a forcing function for extreme good or extreme evil. You know, can think about nuclear fusion, it could destroy the world or it could save the world.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  That's what Ed witnessed out of Edward's head, part of the reason he reached out to Greer is because zero point energy systems were being harnessed and repressed.

• 2:10:25Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe, because that is part of the Stephen Greer narrative, the lost century. I'm not convinced that, I, I, I believe that we've displayed some local effects around over unity, free energy, lower energy, nuclear reaction, you know, whatever. But the idea that we have scalable free energy that we're hiding in, you know, black compartments feels hard for me to believe, but I'm open. What do you think?

• 2:10:49Speaker 01

  I'm not sure because I don't understand the physics enough. You know, there's always a world in which these energy systems could be powering deep underground military bases and we just don't know about it, that it's already employed on the system at large. But my knowledge is, you know, we, we need to call up Missile Man and ask him his advice on this part because I, I just don't know enough.

• 2:11:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. I, I can't say I'm a high conviction in any direction there. But how do you, like, what's the thrust, what's the motivation for your research? Is it just like truth seeking or how, do you have a hope for how this sort of UFO thing ends? Because it seems like we've crossed a Rubicon of late as far as people's acceptance of these things.

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  Not enough. I, I've just been interested in this subject all of my life and my goal really is just the work. I would like to, in a responsible manner, help disclose UAP legacy programs and bring a, a larger truth about what the craft are, what, what, not just what they look like, but where they're from, what they do, why they're here and how the programs that study and exploit these technologies have been constructed. Because there's a lot of very dark things in that aspect, not only just the, the decades of secrecy, but also just the, the exploitation of possible sentient beings and, and technology that is not ours.

• 2:12:09Jesse Michels?

  And an exploitation of humans?

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the contentious thing we talked about as well with Jake and kind of Michael in that testimony with the psionics because we have historical testimony that these psionic assets used to summon craft are treated like crap, you know, given drug cocktails and so forth to perform efficiently and that could result in danger or death. And we also have Jake and the psionics team saying they take, you know, quite a bit of pride in those actions. So there's a discrepancy there. If there's people like being, being hurt or, you know, being given drugs forcibly, that's, that's bad. It's very bad.

• 2:12:48Jesse Michels?

  It's definitely bad. Yeah, it's not cool. And then the idea too, where I don't feel like I have probably the most concrete and good orientation towards this. And it's, it's something I struggle with because it's like you cover some of this stuff and it just leads you into dark territory.

• 2:13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:04Jesse Michels?

  And it leads you into the territory of like, yeah, I want people to know that this stuff is real, that reality is more expanded than we, you know, realize. But the only way to do that is to uncover some pretty gnarly messed up truths around like how this stuff has become operationalized.

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:20Jesse Michels?

  And the government's orientation towards this is how can this confer a tactical advantage for us? And I think it's, the orientation should be, how can this beget more meaning for people and civil side infrastructure updates? And then great if there are derivative technologies that allow us to protect the free world in a more effective way, of course, they should be funneled to like the right thing. But it feels like the impetus, like the sole impetus is weaponization of this stuff.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:49Jesse Michels?

  And I don't think that ends well. If there's an intelligence on the other side of it, which I think there is, I don't think that ends well for us. If that's, if that's continues to be our orientation towards this topic, we're dealing with forces way greater than us. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, OSAP and, you know, a lot of these programs, the people come out and they're kind of haunted. They have these hitchhiker effects. Um, I think it's sort of, you know, the, the two sort of, uh, uh, mantras in UFO research world are like, seek and you shall find and fuck around and find out.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  Look into the stare into the void and it stares.

• 2:14:24Jesse Michels?

  Stares right back and it's a mirror of what you feel and people with all the description of the sphere often when people, you know, are, are, are looked, you know, they're looking at for this psionic connection between less participant and these materials. They're often what's inside of them gets excavated and mirrored in this technology.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  I mean, it's almost, it's also very poignant, like looking at the testimony of, of Corso as well. He said that the purpose of giving this technology to US industry was A to bolster the US war machine and B benefit the American people if necessary. These, these technologies clearly have not been used to benefit the American people, but if, if they're used to create, you know, alien reproduction vehicles, which I believe they are and possibly service and unidentified space program or, um, you know, in near earth orbit defense capabilities or payload delivery or human relocation as, as Michael saw with the large football field sized eight gun craft or operate underground and deep underground military bases. It's clear that that's a very disturbing reality in which we live because that's 80 years of programs, right?

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  That have, have had time to, to flourish and hide themselves and like layer on themselves. That's a very frightening world.

• 2:15:32Jesse Michels?

  It is a very frightening world. I just retweeted Scott Adams, you know, the, uh, the Dilbert creator. And he said, you know, wherever there is complexity, there is fraud. And I just thought that was so applicable to the UFO question. There is an absurd amount of complexity to the point where disclosure has taken a quantum leap around this Jake Barber story and some of the other stories and like mainstream media could not give less of a shit. They don't understand. It was horrible timing around the inauguration, like peak news mania. And then you, this, that's when you release this thing that's beyond the pale for most people and you're, you're, you're piecemealing in psionics and all these other things and that, that's.

• 2:16:12Jesse Michels?

  And I love Ross Colther. I think he's an amazing investigative reporter. And I, I, I think Jake is beyond reproach as well. So it's not a knock on either of them. It's a knock on the timing and maybe News Nation's editing team.

• 2:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, for the 45 minute special, that had to be like on the editing.

• 2:16:29Jesse Michels?

  That was not good. And then everybody started, it started to be vindicated when Ross did this amazing follow up.

• 2:16:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, the two hour 47 minute. And then with, of course, I thought one of the most underappreciated testimonies was Don Paul Bales as well.

• 2:16:41Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  Works closely with Jake. He talked very poignantly on retrieval and implications of crash retrieval. And, and so that started to kind of refocus the conversation with that, which with Fred Baker, with Dr. John Blitch.

• 2:16:52Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. Mainstream media could not care less.

• 2:16:55Jesse Michels?

  They can care less and it's, it's, it's wild to see realities just diverge so starkly where it's like UFO world is on, it's, it's on another planet, literally.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  And then there's also a big pickup in social media categories of, of kind of discrediting all the, the stories coming out and whistleblowers so forth. Like I've even noticed a, a larger concentration of revisiting and kind of discrediting Grush as well, who I find beyond reproach, probably more than anybody else.

• 2:17:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, dude, that, that guy is like motivated by the right stuff.

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:24Jesse Michels?

  He's pieced together so much.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:26Jesse Michels?

  And he's been treated like shit.

• 2:17:28Speaker 01

  And I think, I think his disclosure was done in the, his disclosures were done in the, in the greatest manner possible. Where if you have disclosures but can't necessarily provide firsthand evidence, he provided so much actionable intelligence.

• 2:17:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:41Speaker 01

  Whether to pursue IRAD contracts, IDIQ contracts, embedding of programs, history of programs, certain retrieval incidents, Mounts from Air Force Base incidents. He provided so much actionable intelligence.

• 2:17:53Jesse Michels?

  Hundreds of documents, I think maybe a thousand pages plus to the IC Inspector General, Thomas Mineheim, who's now out and they've not, they've, they haven't done anything about it.

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 2:18:03Jesse Michels?

  And unless you can look at those documents and all we have is that Thomas Mineheim said it was urgent and credible. And nobody has debunked anything in those documents. So unless you can debunk stuff in that, in those documents, then. You need to take action on what this guy is saying. It's absurd.

• 2:18:20Speaker 01

  The only knocks people have against Grush is the Ken Klippenstein hit piece, or the fact his op ed didn't come out.

• 2:18:26Jesse Michels?

  Where where Ken Klippenstein, basically Klippenstein, he admitted to cigar and crystal, crystal and cigar, the the breaking points. You know, guys, he admitted that like the DOD and IC like tipped him off on the story, basically.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:44Jesse Michels?

  So it's it's just crazy. Like, and then the USAID, we now know was funding the Intercept. I don't know how much of that specifically made its way to Ken Klippenstein. But like, and the dude, the dude has all these like secret sources from the USAID. So he's like, he's a bad faith actor. I'm sorry.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:19:01Jesse Michels?

  And I made a tweet to that effect and I got threatened to somebody threatened to sue me and I'm not going to say their name because I don't want to amplify them. They're really bad actors. And they've also questioned the service records of, you know, Randy Anderson and Jake Barber, which is just, I think, disgusting, to be honest. Like, don't go after that, you know?

• 2:19:20Speaker 01

  There was a lot of talk about like the combat controller pipeline, even though that Jake has said numerous times, he was in the pipeline for combat controller, but then was diverted elsewhere.

• 2:19:29Jesse Michels?

  These guys just, and we have one of them specifically has a clearance and it's like, I don't know what he's up to. I don't know if he's a bad, I don't know if he's actually actually acting like he wants to be a paid disinfo agent, but he hasn't gotten the contract yet. And he's actually just like this small time guy.

• 2:19:44Speaker 01

  I think part of this is as well, there's like some popularity to go against kind of the the disclosure movement. And there's, there's like a couple of like prominent channels that really base their entire and entire fame off of just debunking everything, like almost pre debunking stuff.

• 2:20:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:01Speaker 01

  A teaser of Jake Barber would come out and they'd already be debunking stuff.

• 2:20:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, to totally. And they wouldn't listen. They don't listen to any of the details and their priors are entirely off because they take nothing seriously. So it's their Occam's razor is it's all mass hysteria, which if you look at the levels of government that are now saying that this is real. Your Occam's rate, what's this, this is like a cabal controlling all these people? It's, it's the greatest mass hysteria in the history of, it's the best psy op in the world by standard deviations. If that's your claim, which is itself a fantastical null hypothesis. So these people are, they're, they suck, honestly.

• 2:20:37Speaker 01

  The cabal stuff is nonsense because it's all talked about in the frame of ATIP and OSAP, which as we've talked about throughout this whole conversation, there's going back to Robert Sarbacher in 1950 and even before in 1933 with Mussolini, there are so many other players involved. There is not, there might be a, a lot of reoccurring players that we've also talked about as well in recent disclosures, but the circular reporting, it's crash retrieval and reverse engineering is not isolated to a small group of people.

• 2:21:03Jesse Michels?

  No, it's not at all. If anything, the, the intelligence community tactic to kind of repress this stuff has been flood the zone.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:11Jesse Michels?

  So there's too much snake oil to sift through for the average person. I think it moved from secrecy under Blue Book in the 50s and 60s. And then the 80s, at some point around the majestic 12 stuff, this stuff started to get promoted, but with all sorts of quackery and you have Air Force Office of Special Investigations Agent, and other counter intel people like Rick Doty being like, there are six alien beings and like John Lear saying, you know, there's a soul catcher on the moon.

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  And that's starting to pop back up with some of Rick Doty's disciples, like the guy, I think he was in prison, who, who tweets all the time, like, let me show you a photo of an extraterrestrial and it'll just be a random image.

• 2:21:45Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:21:45Speaker 01

  And so forth. So that's, that's starting to pop back up.

• 2:21:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So that it's just, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to, because I think earnest debate is always good. And Mick West, people say he's like a paid asset or whatever. I, I, you know, I enjoyed like having him on to debate Merrick and debated all the top UFO videos. And I thought that was like fun and good. And he doesn't seem like, you know, he's like, I want more light shined, shone on this. I think he could be a little more like earnestly open to some of this stuff. But like, some of these other guys are just, just like bad vibes and like it's total, it's all ad hominem. And it's, it's, uh, you know, they threaten lawfare and stuff and it's whack. It's like, I, I, I hope you, uh, I don't know, just introspect a little bit if, if, you know, I mean, again, read between

• 2:22:33Jesse Michels?

  the lines, see if this applies to you, because I don't want to mention anybody, but it's like, just think about like what you're doing, like, are you really on the right side of history?

• 2:22:42Speaker 01

  Well, also step back and study the subject a little more, because even if you're not ready to make the jump into crash retrievals and reverse engineering yet, go back, look at the history of Sign, Grudge, Blue Book, OSAP, go look at numerous sightings, mass sightings, just go, go through a long list of UFO sightings and projects in the 20th century.

• 2:23:01Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  And, and start there. I mean, there's the, not the Condon Committee, but the Condon Report from England, Project Magnet, Project Second Story, Grudge, Sign, Blue Book, all sorts of UFO programs around the world, numerous sightings, private corporations contracted to look at UFOs and Batel.

• 2:23:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, go watch your channel too, UAP Gurb, because it, it's a, like I said, it's literally a fire hose. It's a cannon of like absurd amounts of information, to the point where you can't just dismiss it all. There's something going on, even if that something is slightly adjacent to the consensus truth we all think on aliens, UFOs, maybe the rest of the iceberg doesn't look like the tip of the iceberg, that's fine. I don't think anybody on the pro UFO side is dogmatic about that. I think it's just, this stuff is worthy of investigation, which clearly it is.

• 2:23:49Speaker 01

  And if you're still just trying to figure out, are, do UFOs exist? Just go look at all the dang military reports of, of pilots and so forth citing UFOs, like, the mounds from caves, people dismiss that, but that's a great one to study, Minot Air Force Base, in which I think a C1, or, sorry, a B2 bomber encountered a saucer flying around it, de-elevating. There's so many stories. Just go read through the, the Blue Book files of the unexplained cases.

• 2:24:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. No, they're, they're an enormous, and, and, and anybody in the government capacity, looking at this sort of, you know, earnestly, always comes to the same conclusion, which is there's something probably here.

• 2:24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, as Eric Davis says, there's a there there.

• 2:24:28Jesse Michels?

  Clearly. Well, uh, Sammy, UAP Gerb, this has been an absolute honor. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? I mean, there are probably a hundred other things you could talk about, but.

• 2:24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing really. There's so much stuff we could talk about. I just say to everybody, keep investigating crash retrievals and reverse engineering. There's a ton of interesting cases and interesting studies and corporations and military requirements and send out FOIA requests as well. A no answer and a denial is always an answer within itself.

• 2:24:57Jesse Michels?

  We didn't even get to that story of the whistleblower who talked about, was it an egg shaped craft like off on the Azores, like off of Portugal?

• 2:25:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll save that because I, I plan to talk to that guy soon, but it's a person who was stationed with the USAF, who claimed to see a, a Tic Tac.

• 2:25:19Jesse Michels?

  A Tic Tac, that's right.

• 2:25:20Speaker 01

  Unloaded from a C-130 Hercules.

• 2:25:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of good research there as well.

• 2:25:24Jesse Michels?

  That C-130s are often transport, or what do you mean, good research? Oh, just that this, this incidence?

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, there's a, because of course this guy, when, when I studied this case, he doesn't have photos or reports on the actual craft, but the information he can share, which is like the insignia on the C-130 and on the nearby vans, just even, even just the C-130 that unloads the Tic Tac and knowing what military wing that's from can lead to such bountiful research because then you can look where the C-130 is from. You can look at nearby contractors, you can look at nearby air wings, you can look at nearby FFR DCs and start to piece together some interesting stuff based off the testimony.

• 2:26:03Jesse Michels?

  I love it, man. Well, go subscribe to UAP Gerb. Check out, you're doing a follow-up with Randy Anderson. It'll probably be out or around out about, yeah, when we put this out. And I know you're gonna do an amazing job there and you're not only gonna talk about, you know, talk to him, corroborate his story, but also, or, or try to stress test it, you know, whatever. But, um, also go really deep into, you know, the specific contractor SAIC, which was likely involved in this sort of, you know, psychotronic or psionic research. Um, so yeah, it's been an honor, Sammy. Really appreciate you stopping by, man.

• 2:26:37Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

• 2:26:39Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. All right.