NASCAR's Kurt Busch Remembers His Brother Kyle

NASCAR champions and brothers Kurt and Kyle Busch spent decades racing each other before Kyle’s sudden death in May at 41. Kurt talks with Anderson Cooper about their years of “sibling rivalry,” the “brotherhood” they shared on the racetrack and where he feels Kyle’s presence the most. For more of “All There Is with Anderson Cooper” visit cnn.com/allthereis. Host: Anderson Cooper Showrunner: Haley Thomas Producers: Emily Williams and Kyra Dahring Video Editor: Eric Zembrzuski Technical Director: Dan Dzula Bookers: Kerry Rubin and Kari Pricher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Anderson Cooper?

  Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I'm glad you're here. You're not alone. My guest today on the podcast is NASCAR champion and Hall of Famer Kurt Busch. He's grieving the recent death of his younger brother, NASCAR champion Kyle Busch. On May 21st, 2026, Kyle died from severe pneumonia that progressed quickly into sepsis. He was just 41 years old. Kurt was born six years ahead of Kyle. Their dad, Tom, worked as a mechanic and raced locally, passing on his racing knowledge to his sons. Kurt and Kyle were fierce competitors when they were racing against each other, but they also cheered each other on. Kurt retired from full-time racing with NASCAR in 2023 after suffering a concussion the year before.

• 1:16Anderson Cooper?

  He's still an active driver, however. Kyle was married to his wife Samantha, and they have two children, Lennox, who's four now, and Brexton, who's 11 and is already racing. I sat down with Kurt Busch in Washington, DC. You were six when Kyle was born.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're six years apart. Yeah, it's like, oh, man, I thought I was gonna be an only child. Now, now you're here.

• 1:39Anderson Cooper?

  Were you always interested in racing?

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Our life, cars, cars, cars, cars. My grandfather, who I never met on my dad's side, he was a used car salesman.

• 1:49Anderson Cooper?

  I didn't know that. That's cool.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  And then my dad, he was an auto mechanic and a tool salesman. So, and then he had his street rods, and then we had his race car in the garage. So there's always cars to touch, feel, and work on. In the 80s, all my buddies in Vegas, I grew up in Las Vegas, they all had dirt bikes. I'm like, Dad, Dad, can, maybe Christmas, can I get a dirt bike?

• 2:08Anderson Cooper?

  I really wanted a dirt bike, too.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Right? On Christmas Day, so I go out in the yard, and there's this go-kart. It's all shiny and orange and looks awesome. I'm like, man, I want a dirt bike. And he said this to me, and I didn't quite comprehend it at that age. I was seven or eight. And he said, "Son, you're gonna live a longer life on four tires than you will on two." And that's where it started.

• 2:31Anderson Cooper?

  How did you actually start racing?

• 2:33Speaker 02

  My dad let me drive his race car when I turned 16. And then we built the car, and then me and my dad raced together. It was like just father, son.

• 2:42Anderson Cooper?

  You would race against your dad?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I beat him in my second race ever. We started traveling around, and it was like when the bushes showed up, everyone's like, oh, we're running for third now. Right? I mean, when we went to the track, my dad, it was no social hour. It was, we're here for the trophy, we're not here to make friends. And so that was instilled in me, and it got instilled in Kyle as well. Just all those years, it was like he was putting me through this racing education that I didn't even think that it would turn out the way that it did.

• 3:12Anderson Cooper?

  When was your first professional race?

• 3:14Speaker 02

  I was 19 years old. The race was live on ESPN. Like, this was the big moment. And I won that race. And then my name, just like, you feel this aura of, who's this kid? What's going on? And I'm racing in the Cup Series by 22 years old.

• 3:30Anderson Cooper?

  Wow. When did you notice Kyle's interest? Or was it just always a given?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Everything that I did, he wanted to do just as good at the same time, right?

• 3:40Anderson Cooper?

  Even though he's six years younger?

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm 19, and he's watching his older brother on TV winning races, and he's just starting out. Age 12, I think, is when things opened up with the little Legend Car races.

• 3:53Anderson Cooper?

  What are Legend Car races?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Ah, they're motorcycle-powered cars. It's a great, great spec division car to learn how to race in. I mean, it'll go over 100 miles an hour.

• 4:03Anderson Cooper?

  Wow.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  I mean, my nephew, Brexton, he's 11.

• 4:07Anderson Cooper?

  This is Kyle's son?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Kyle's son. He's already racing in those Legend Cars.

• 4:11Anderson Cooper?

  Wow.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Just imagine, your older brother's doing all this, and he's 12. And he was just as fast as me when I'd come back and race a few of those Legend Car races.

• 4:21Anderson Cooper?

  At 12, he was just as fast as you in racing Legend Cars?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:26Anderson Cooper?

  How was that possible?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  He was watching me, like, he's working on the cars, just doing everything. But he's doing everything just at turbo speed, following me. I got him in the Truck Series at age 16. He's racing in professional ranks at 16. So that's where we're a little different. For me, I was flunking out of college, got an opportunity to race, and I won in this race at Vegas. And I just got out in victory lane, and I'm like, this is what I gotta do. For him, it was just fast track just to get to where I already was, which was in the NASCAR Cup Series. I just caught a lucky break. For him, I think he was hell-bent on getting there.

• 5:02Anderson Cooper?

  In 2001, you had won a race, and I think you said something to the effect of, like, you think I'm good? Wait till you see my younger brother.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  I did what I could everywhere I went to leave a bridge open and to leave a road paved for him to go through. There was times when we would have some, like, heart-to-heart talks. And be like, man, my first ever NASCAR race, they booed me because of you. And I'm like, well, you'll make your own name, bud. So there's a little bit of that friction of the sibling rivalry when he first got to Cup.

• 5:36Anderson Cooper?

  He felt like he was in your shadow?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I gave him a tainted name, because I was having some feuds with some rival drivers. And the fans, they were booing me. It was all right. But his friction with people and his tenacity, mine was aggressive. His was doubly aggressive, because he knew he was that good.

• 5:56Anderson Cooper?

  For people who don't know racing, he was known for his attitude. He was known for saying what was on his mind.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  And he had no recoil with it. He was fine with it.

• 6:08Anderson Cooper?

  He didn't care?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  He didn't care. He took the black hat and rolled with it.

• 6:12Anderson Cooper?

  There's a video of you two, this was in 2012.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  The engine stayed together as we were overheating all day long. Just all the guys, man, this is a great day for Monster Energy. And this guy right here, I'm so proud of you. You proud of me, doc? You all right as a driver?

• 6:30Speaker 04

  He scared the hell out of me, but you made it after. That's all that matters.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  He told me what to do, driving like at lap 40. And I was like, here we go. Here's the owner, Tom, the driver.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Get on the wheel.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  How to drive. So no, just gotta thank Monster and Tag Heuer, our guys at Toyota. This was an unbelievable race, and the fans here nationwide. It's a great series to run, and I'm happy to run here this year, half the season with Kyle.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  You can feel all that joy, right? And then I turn to see you, and I'm like, damn it, yeah, he's gone. I keep trying to go back to those memories of good. When people ask me about things or wanna talk. That's one of our biggest highlights together, just that project of building a team, building it from scratch. That's where it really starts hitting, is that was the start of something very special.

• 7:22Anderson Cooper?

  In 2015, Kyle narrowly beat you in a 1-2 finish.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Uh, Sonoma, yeah.

• 7:29Anderson Cooper?

  In Sonoma, yeah. Was this after his accident?

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Yes, he broke his right leg and left foot at Daytona.

• 7:37Anderson Cooper?

  And the crash looked really bad.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Oh, dude, horrendous. I mean, it was like 100 yards that he got to run at a straight-up concrete wall that wasn't protected by a safer barrier. So he gets hurt in February, and then his son is born in May. And he goes to rehab, and he pushes himself, and he's back on the track in June. I think it was like his third race back. I was on the gas to catch him, and I ran out of laps. I got to his rear bumper on the last lap, and I probably could have, like, thrown it in there just to try to see if I could wreck him.

• 8:12Anderson Cooper?

  To wreck him?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:14Anderson Cooper?

  Like, actually wreck him?

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I'd get the win. But it's one of those moments of, he went through all this, and he's already back to winning. It was like a slingshot moment of just now he's going to the stratosphere on who he wanted to be in this sport, and ended up winning the championship that year.

• 8:36Anderson Cooper?

  Let's just watch that.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there's Kyle, and then I'm in the red car chasing him down. Yeah. And this road course, you're pushing hard on the brake pedal. You're on the gas. Road courses are very physical.

• 8:50Anderson Cooper?

  And his foot was one of the things he was operating?

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, still in somewhat of a soft cast.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess I wasn't that close.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  I needed one more lap.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  No crutches necessary.

• 9:06Anderson Cooper?

  Kyle Busch wins at Sonoma. That was the first time you finished one, too.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Can you believe that? Only four times that we finished one, two. I'm out close to 800 starts. He was gonna get to 800. Four times. I would have thought there'd have been dozens of opportunities for the one-two finishes.

• 9:23Anderson Cooper?

  There was a race where you guys collided.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was back in '07.

• 9:29Anderson Cooper?

  And, and I read you stopped talking to each other for like a year afterward.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  He said that I wrecked him. I'm like, you wrecked me. And then you look back at the footage and you can, you can take it from both sides.

• 9:40Anderson Cooper?

  I read that it was your grandmother who kind of said, all right, enough. You guys.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, grandma did want a peaceful Thanksgiving. She was like, you guys need to just bury the hatch.

• 9:48Anderson Cooper?

  She didn't want punching at Thanksgiving.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. We were able to get through Thanksgiving, but it was, it was still a little bit of friction. That's when he was starting to come into his own. Like, he was just dominating. That's when I think we found another chapter in our relationship. That he's going, he's going to big time. And I was proud of him. I was starting to concede like, all right, he, he's gonna double my stats. He's gonna triple my stats.

• 10:13Anderson Cooper?

  How was that realization for you?

• 10:15Speaker 02

  That was tough. Like, I had to grow up and go, you know what? You helped him, but you're not as fast as him.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Every athlete goes through it, but here we are, just two blue collar kids out of Vegas. My mom and dad, they have, Kyle will be in the Hall of Fame one day. They have two Hall of Famers. When all this started out was, it was just a hobby.

• 10:36Anderson Cooper?

  When you were inducted to the Hall of Fame, which was in January.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  January of this year.

• 10:42Anderson Cooper?

  Kyle introduced you. I, I, I just wanna play what he said.

• 10:48Speaker 05

  I couldn't be more proud of my brother Kurt, as we're just two kids from Las Vegas, Nevada, raised in a blue collar, hardworking family, where hard work wasn't optional. We were taught to grind it out and to make it happen. None of this came easy, and in this sport, it shouldn't. And watching Kurt believe in himself long before the results ever showed up has been an incredible experience for me to learn from. He earned every bit of this, and I'm so proud to call him my brother. It is now my honor to officially induct Kurt Busch into the NASCAR Hall of Fame.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Again, it's just so tough to see him and hear his voice.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  And he, he did it so well. I'm just very thankful.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  That we had the ride that we did, you know? For me this year, I mean, there's these highs of Hall of Fame induction, the lows of my brother and last year in December, I lost a good friend, Greg Biffle, and his family.

• 11:54Anderson Cooper?

  His entire family was killed in a plane crash.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  In a plane crash, yeah.

• 11:57Anderson Cooper?

  So in the last year, you, you were inducted to the Hall of Fame.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:02Anderson Cooper?

  Your brother died and your best friend.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Just, I'm trying to grieve in ways to help people. You know, my mom, my dad, and Samantha.

• 12:12Anderson Cooper?

  Samantha's his wife.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Samantha Bush, yeah. And, you know, our crew guys, Kyle's crew that's around. It's just, it's just, I try to do it where I'm not biting off more than I can chew and, and back off a little bit. Like, I'm doing another extracurricular race in, in Washington DC and running a different car, old car of mine. And when you race your old cars, you have all those old memories of what that car drove like and what it felt like. And so it gives me that release, but then I'm just trying to help everyone get through this and share stories. And it's not gonna get any easier, but time will help heal. And I'm trying to teach my parents, you're gonna have to talk about it, and people are gonna come up and share their stories.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  I mean, even the dry cleaning lady in North Carolina where I live, been going there for 20 years. She says, Kurt, come here. She says, I lost my younger sister around your age. I had no idea, but it's, these are those discussions that are part of therapy. I feel like this little therapy session has helped. I haven't talked about how much.

• 13:17Anderson Cooper?

  You haven't talked much about him?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 13:19Anderson Cooper?

  Because it's too painful?

• 13:23Speaker 02

  I'm 600 texts behind, and I'm a guy that usually goes to bed at zero.

• 13:27Anderson Cooper?

  Wow.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  And I, and I try to connect with people that reached out and you only can do so many in one day.

• 13:36Anderson Cooper?

  And some of those are from months ago?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:38Anderson Cooper?

  From right after?

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. I have a nice therapist that I worked with towards the twilight of my career on just things sports-wise and, you know, retirement is approaching and.

• 13:49Anderson Cooper?

  Has therapy helped?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  It has. I embraced it a few years back, whereas the young Kurt, you know, teenager, 20-year-old, 30-year-old, nah. But I've had a really good group of people around me since and

• 14:05Speaker 02

  and it gives me that advice to help others.

• 14:08Anderson Cooper?

  Did you know that Kyle was sick?

• 14:11Speaker 02

  I didn't know that Kyle was sick. I had heard that he asked for a shot at the Watkins Glen race, I think like two weeks before. I know through my physicals and his physicals at NASCAR, we both have arthritis and gout and struggle with sinus issues. I struggled quite a bit, needing prednisone, needing a steroid shot. And so I know he probably went through the same thing.

• 14:35Anderson Cooper?

  So when he was, because there was that race where he was driving and he said on his, on his radio, I'm gonna need a shot after.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was most likely a sinus shot of some sort, but I didn't know he was sick. People around him said that he had a little cough here or there. He won a race the Friday before.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  He was opening a go-kart track somewhere in North Carolina with his son, Brexton, on Tuesday, the day before. There was no signs of what this led to.

• 15:06Anderson Cooper?

  He was in a simulator practicing?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. It's a normal routine now for Cup Series guys on Wednesdays to spend a couple hours in the simulator.

• 15:15Anderson Cooper?

  And what happened?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  So he's just doing his normal session. Session ended around 5:00. And he gets out and goes to the bathroom and starts coughing. And his crew chief, crew chief is kinda like your wife at the track. It's your, it's your best friend. You take care of each other and you share a lot of secrets with your crew chief and crew chief's like, you all right? And then when he went into the bathroom, Kyle was sitting on the floor with his back up against the wall. He said, you don't look so good. Kyle's like, no, yes, I need to call an ambulance. Kyle said, yes.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  That's something that athletes don't do. Nobody shows weakness, you know, that type of person. And for him to say that, something's wrong. An ambulance gets him, gets him to the hospital. Things are stabilized. Meanwhile, I turned my phone off that evening and I didn't hear about anything until my dad is calling my girlfriend's phone at 4:00 AM. And that's when I learned. I rushed straight to the hospital.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  It's just how fast things changed, man. It's not fair.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  What I saw happen in a 12-hour period is unfathomable. It's out of a horror movie. It wasn't like we lost time. It wasn't like we didn't have good care.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  You know, just the one in a million. And it's like, no, no.

• 16:45Anderson Cooper?

  We'll be right back with more of Kurt Busch.

• 16:50Speaker 06

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• 17:03Speaker 07

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• 17:17Speaker 06

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• 17:23Speaker 07

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• 17:24Speaker 06

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• 17:31Anderson Cooper?

  Were you able to be with your brother at the end?

• 17:37Speaker 02

  I was. You know, Samantha, my mom.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  My dad didn't wanna go in. My dad wanted to remember him in his eyes the way he wanted to see him.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  I respected that.

• 17:49Anderson Cooper?

  I understand that.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  When other team owners started to come to the hospital, NASCAR executives came and

• 18:01Speaker 02

  and then a couple of his best friends came, that's when it starts getting real. Like, it was tough.

• 18:08Anderson Cooper?

  Did he know how bad this was?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  None of us knew. It happened that fast.

• 18:17Anderson Cooper?

  You didn't know that that was the end?

• 18:23Speaker 02

  The sequence of events is just, it's horrific.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  He didn't deserve this.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  I'm here to help with where I can. Samantha's got the toughest job right now.

• 18:44Anderson Cooper?

  Were you able to talk with him at all?

• 18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  I know you could hear me.

• 18:54Anderson Cooper?

  I read a number of people in the NASCAR and the driving community said it made them kind of rethink their own attention to their own health, just taking it more seriously.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  It's a big eye opener. All of us feel the pressure of making sure that we stay in the seat or stay in the car to race because if we're out, you know, a young driver might jump in and win the race or do better. We're all independent contractors in NASCAR.

• 19:19Anderson Cooper?

  If you're not in the race, you can't win it.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  I mean, early on, my second year, I hadn't won yet and I felt like I was just going to get cut and I'd be out. It's pretty tough some in certain situations.

• 19:30Anderson Cooper?

  Kyle was already thinking about his own retirement and turning to coaching his son.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, we talked about it quite a bit. He was on a nice five-year plan because Brexton is five years away from being 16 and racing professionally in the Truck Series. That was the goal. And Kyle wanted to drop back off of Cup and run trucks full-time. And actually, he wanted NASCAR to change the rules so that as a Cup driver, he could still be eligible for a Truck Series championship. If he could have won the Truck Championship, this one gets tough, he would have been the only driver in all of NASCAR's history to be a three-time champion in the top three series. And then he'd have the truck ready for Brex.

• 20:14Anderson Cooper?

  What's it like to see Brexton racing?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  It's so cool. His racer craft and how he talks, it's like Kyle. I see a lot of him in him.

• 20:23Anderson Cooper?

  You do?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's going to be a ball of fire. He's on the fast track, more so than even Kyle.

• 20:29Anderson Cooper?

  Really?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Yes, and he loves it. He's into the data. He pulls up his little tablet and he's like, Uncle Kurt, check this out. I went above 100 miles per hour my first time.

• 20:39Anderson Cooper?

  He's 11 years old.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Through and he pulls up the setup. I told him like, hey, what happened with that, that purple car, you know? Isn't that, isn't that the kid that's 15? He goes, yeah, but I'm better than him. Something Kyle would say.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  You know, Samantha and Kyle have raised a great young man and with their daughter Lennox as well. Kyle and I talked years ago that when Brexton was going to be getting a little older and racing more on the asphalt tracks, I said I'd be more involved.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  And this was his first year of racing on asphalt. And now this, this happens.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  It's not what I had planned or he had planned, but I'll do my best where I can as Uncle Kurt.

• 21:26Anderson Cooper?

  You want to be involved?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 21:29Anderson Cooper?

  NASCAR did a tribute of the Coca-Cola 600 and I just want to play some of that video.

• 21:41Anderson Cooper?

  This is the, the missing man formation.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  I've never seen that before.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Literally, I've never seen that before. It's just like, wow.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Our family grew by millions right there in that moment, it felt like.

• 21:57Anderson Cooper?

  With all the people watching?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that formation, I'd never seen that before done anywhere.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And then with the eight that they sprayed into the infield grass, you know, with my brother's date on there.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  I didn't want to go.

• 22:16Anderson Cooper?

  You didn't want to?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  I didn't want to go to the tracks too soon.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  It didn't feel real. I'm glad we went. I needed to be there for my mom and my dad. Samantha, Brex and Lennox, it's just, I was thankful for that moment with NASCAR. As soon as I turned around after this, all the drivers wanted to come up to me and I went, of course, thank you. It's just, this was, this was rough.

• 22:39Anderson Cooper?

  It's a lot.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:41Anderson Cooper?

  It's a lot to deal with.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I didn't even realize, you know, I didn't want to look back. I could feel the presence of everyone behind us. I just didn't want to look back. Like, we're still just in shock. Like, it's just like, we're all in disbelief. And I think we're all finding the best way we can to battle through this.

• 22:59Anderson Cooper?

  Does it feel real now?

• 23:00Speaker 02

  It, yes. Yeah. And that's where I've had some conversations and went and grieved and went and raced some races and then seeing Brexton race, you know, that was tough.

• 23:11Anderson Cooper?

  What helps?

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Different conversations help, you know? Therapy and going to the track and people who give you a hug and some people want to talk and then some people just give you that, that soulful feeling of condolences without saying anything.

• 23:26Anderson Cooper?

  It helps to go to the track, though? It's not too painful?

• 23:30Speaker 02

  It helps, yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Can't go too much. Like, too much exposure to it is like just being out in the sun, you get sunburnt type feel. I had that happen a couple of times. Now I've learned, okay, it's enough. I need to go home. It's just so vivid at the track because everybody has a number eight or an 18 or, I was at a Cubs game recently and this, this old guy has an M&M's jacket, my brother's racing sponsored jacket. And I had to go up to him. And he goes, your brother personally gave me this jacket.

• 24:00Anderson Cooper?

  No kidding?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Seven years ago or so. And he pulls it up on his phone. This nice little guy, like 70 years old and he's, I, I wear this everywhere. I'm out on a tour on the mall here in Washington DC and this young girl comes up and she says, sorry about your brother. My father was one of his first jackmen on his professional race team. So there's going to be those signs and it's a matter of just taking it in and just take a deep breath and be okay.

• 24:28Anderson Cooper?

  The first time you got in the car after he died, a race car, was that difficult?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  I actually got in the car like a half hour before our practice session, just to sit there and have a little chat.

• 24:42Anderson Cooper?

  Chat with?

• 24:44Speaker 02

  With myself and with, with a prayer with him.

• 24:48Anderson Cooper?

  Do you talk to him?

• 24:51Speaker 02

  It's when I'm getting in the car, I just check in.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Racing what I'm doing right now in these vintage races and these extracurricular style races, I'd love for him to be out there with me. Once Brexton gets to be that age, I would have loved for all three of us to go out there and race.

• 25:13Anderson Cooper?

  I wonder if getting into a car will be the place where you feel your brother?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  It's primarily been around the car.

• 25:20Anderson Cooper?

  It has been?

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's, it's almost like if, if I make a mistake on the track, I'm going to get scolded. Cause he's, he would have seen it, you know?

• 25:29Anderson Cooper?

  Stepping into a vehicle, getting on a racetrack, you can feel him there?

• 25:33Speaker 02

  The three or four times so far this year, yeah. It's just because it's so strong right now, so new and still so much of a feel of disbelief.

• 25:43Anderson Cooper?

  It's only been a few months. What do you hope the grief becomes? Like, in your mind?

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I already know that he's the winningest driver in NASCAR. Everyone knows it. And the legacy that he's left behind with the amount of drivers that he has coached and the amount of crew members that have worked for him or raced with him. And when people tell me stories on how he affected their life in a positive way, it, it helps me move forward.

• 26:15Anderson Cooper?

  You like that?

• 26:17Speaker 02

  It helps.

• 26:18Anderson Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, but only so much at a time. It feels like dinners have been more intimate with my parents' advice that they had heard from a racing team owner that lost their son, that holidays are tougher, birthdays are tougher. August 18th, it's now Kyle Busch Day, 8/18.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just going to hit harder for a while and different.

• 26:46Anderson Cooper?

  Is there anything else you want people to know?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  I just love the phases that we went through as brothers, you know? We're six years apart and when you're teenagers, six years is an eternity of being apart. And then you get to your 40s, six years is like six days. You're the same, right?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  I loved how we went through these phases even on the racetrack of the sibling rivalry was real, then helping each other with sponsorships and, you know, the key things to make us stronger that we didn't tell other racers, you know, about this track or this moment or this. And then racing on track.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  It was like we were the same mindset and the same thought process on where to make passes and how we drafted with each other. I just loved our synergy on the track and then the evolution that we went through. And towards the end, it would be like, we'd both take the driver's suit off our back and lay it down for the other, other brother. And the biggest thing that I miss is just that banter and the unspoken words when we would race each other, the back and forth. I mean, my last win at Kansas Speedway 2022, my brother second, and there was one big slide that my brother missed on taking the lead.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  And I could see it, like, that was his chance and now his tires are toast. And when I caught him in the next set of corners, it was almost like he knew he was done. Go ahead, brother, you get him. I couldn't get him. He yielded. You won't really see it if you pull up tape. Fans can't find it. Team owners in the data, maybe.

• 28:40Anderson Cooper?

  But you knew it.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  He yielded and I was able to win that race. And I called him afterwards. I said, thank you. He goes, I know, I know.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Those are the things I miss the most and that's my last NASCAR win. He helped me win it.

• 28:53Anderson Cooper?

  I didn't know this until you were just talking. It's like a secret language or a feeling that only you and Kyle could understand between you on the racetrack. It wasn't spoken, but through the...

• 29:09Speaker 02

  The brotherhood, yeah.

• 29:10Anderson Cooper?

  The brotherhood and the feel, you just knew you were communicating with each other. It's a form of communication without words and that's a bond that you and he shared that no one else does.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. You picked up on it. It's hard to describe and...

• 29:27Anderson Cooper?

  It's beautiful.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  It is, it's poetic in a way.

• 29:31Anderson Cooper?

  To feel that and not even see like him, but just know, it's like a mind meld that you can't share with anybody else.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  It is an unspoken language. We're pretty tight on track and I could feel it.

• 29:49Anderson Cooper?

  What a beautiful thing to have had.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  It was pretty special. But thank you. I haven't really talked about him much and I appreciate this therapeutic in ways.

• 30:00Anderson Cooper?

  It's really lovely to, to learn about him and about your relationship.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Winningest brothers in NASCAR history. Took two of us to figure it out.

• 30:09Anderson Cooper?

  Thank you.

• 30:11Anderson Cooper?

  If you have thoughts about my conversation with Kurt Busch that you'd like to share, you can leave us comments at our grief community page at cnn.com/allthereis. And if there's something you've learned in your grief you think could be helpful for others and or just want to talk about your grief experiences with us, leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. On Thursday, September 10th, I hope you join me at 9:15 PM for my streaming show, All There Is Live. It's on every other Thursday. You can watch new episodes live on cnn.com/allthereis and it's free on our community page for a week after it airs live. Thanks so much for listening.