Pod Insights All There Is with Anderson Cooper Kenny Chesney About this episode Country superstar Kenny Chesney reflects on the loss of friends and a beloved dog. He and Anderson also share their connection to a family who experienced a profound loss. Plus, Anderson talks about the death of David Gergen and speaks to a podcast listener facing a life-threatening illness.
Join the community to share your story and watch Anderson's weekly streaming show All There Is Live at cnn.com/allthereis.
Host: Anderson Cooper
Showrunner: Haley Thomas
Producers: Chuck Hadad, Grace Walker, Emily Williams
Video Editor: Eric Zembrzuski
Technical Director: Dan Dzula
Booker: Kerry Rubin
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Transcript 4,526 words · 12 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:07 Anderson Cooper? I went to a memorial service the other day for David Gergen. David was a lovely human being. He was decent, kind, a gentleman on camera and off. He wasn't one of those people you see on cable news yelling, saying things they may not even believe. He was thoughtful. He'd served as an advisor to four presidents, Republicans and Democrats, and even though he had a lifetime of real experience, he listened to other people and always engaged with them respectfully. David died in July after a struggle with Lewy body dementia. I miss him. His wife, Anne, flanked by their children Catherine and Christopher, read a poem she also had read at David's burial. It's called "Immortality" by Claire Harner.
0:48 Speaker 01 Do not stand at my grave and weep. I am not there. I do not sleep. I am a thousand winds that blow. I am the diamond glints on snow. I am the sunlight on ripened grain. I am the gentle autumn rain. When you awaken in the morning's hush, I am the swift upflinging of quiet birds in circling flight. I am the soft star that shines at night. Do not stand at my grave and cry. I am not there. I did not die.
1:28 Anderson Cooper? I like that idea, that our loved ones are not gone, that they are in all these things, that they're alive all around us. I certainly hope that's true. You may know that I've started a live stream show, which is a companion to this podcast called All There Is Live. My guest on the latest episode is Marika O'Mara, who sent me this voicemail back in 2024.
1:53 Speaker 02 My name is Marika. I was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer about two years ago. I lost my mom. I was 25 and she also died from metastatic breast cancer. When my mom was on hospice care at the end, she had a grief counselor and she said one thing that has always stuck with me. We are grieving for the one person and it can be a terrible grief. But the dying person, knowing that she's gonna die, knows that she's gonna lose everybody in her life that she's ever loved.
2:35 Speaker 02 And I understand even more now as I'm facing the same thing. I know I won't get to see my granddaughter get married, my two grandsons. The littlest one is three. I know I won't be able to see him graduate high school. My husband, who I was lucky enough to find just seven years ago. It's devastating, losing and knowing in advance about it. And that's all there is for me. In the meantime, I'm gonna do my very best to love them all as hard as I can.
3:18 Anderson Cooper? That is all we can do, isn't it? Love those around us as hard as we can. When Marika joined me on All There Is Live, I was stunned to learn that her husband died unexpectedly in July. So Marika is grieving him and facing the uncertainty about her own future. This is part of the conversation I had with her. Are you scared?
3:39 Speaker 02 Um, no. I don't think that's the right word. Maybe anticipating pain makes me a little scared. Um, but I don't think I'm scared of dying. I believe that there's something more for us. I believe that I'll see Brian again and my mom and my dad and, you know, all those, I think maybe we believe that so we aren't scared, but...
4:18 Speaker 03 I'm gonna believe it.
4:20 Anderson Cooper? Yeah, me too.
4:24 Speaker 03 Are you scared?
4:27 Anderson Cooper? Of dying?
4:29 Speaker 03 Yeah.
4:30 Anderson Cooper? I wasn't scared, um, sorry. I wasn't scared before I had children.
4:41 Anderson Cooper? In fact, you know, I, I exposed myself to a lot of danger over the last, I don't know, since I was 23, going to wars and stuff. I tried to get as close as possible to that line and, because I wanted to
5:00 Anderson Cooper? witness it and understand it and bear witness to the suffering of others. But now that I have little kids, I'm very scared about not being there for them. We like to think we're in control of our lives, that we'll have the time to do all the things that we delay doing, but there are no such guarantees, are there? I'm grateful for Marika, for her honesty and her willingness to help all of us with her wisdom and her love. This is all there is. We'll be right back with Kenny Chesney.
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6:03 Speaker 05 When they get in here, it goes from here to here.
6:05 Anderson Cooper? Welcome back. I first met Kenny Chesney nearly 20 years ago when I did a profile of him for CBS's 60 Minutes. Our paths have crossed a number of times since then. Kenny's written a memoir called Heart, Life, Music about his incredible journey in country music. I started our conversation showing him part of an interview I did in 2012 with Lynn and Chris McDonnell, just three days after their seven-year-old daughter Grace was murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, along with 19 other children and six staff members. I'm a huge fan of yours, and it goes well beyond the music. There is something that you did which I don't think you've ever talked about, I've never talked about.
6:47 Anderson Cooper? When Sandy Hook happened, I interviewed the mother of Grace McDonald, who was a little girl killed at Sandy Hook. And her name was Lynn. This is just part of the interview that I'd done with Lynn.
7:00 Speaker 06 The first time we had been able to be with her was last night.
7:03 Anderson Cooper? Yeah.
7:03 Speaker 06 And when we walked in the room and we saw that white casket, it just, you felt like the floor was falling out beneath you and your breath was taken away. But earlier in the morning, I decided, because Grace loved art so much, we were packing Sharpies in our pockets. And when we got in, after we did our big family hug with Grace, we sat down and we busted out the Sharpies and we decided that we were, at first I had visioned maybe a little heart, but by the time we were done, there wasn't an inch of white. It was so covered with all the things that she loved. When we left the room, it was certainly so hard to leave her because that would be the last time that we would be able to be with her.
7:48 Speaker 06 We had to take great joy in knowing that when we walked in there, it was so white and our breath was taken away. But when we walked out of there, it was like we had joy again. It had so much color. And it was grace. It was so grace.
8:03 Anderson Cooper? You were able to give her things as well?
8:05 Speaker 06 Yes. We brought her her favorite Paka book and we had seashells and flip flops and sunglasses. And she loved to cook. We had a frying pan. And she loved music. She has Taylor Swift Christmas song in there. She has our New York Yankee, she has our dad's New York Yankee hat.
8:25 Anderson Cooper? Kenny Chesney, is that?
8:26 Speaker 06 She has a little Kenny Chesney in there.
8:29 Anderson Cooper? Notes from her friends.
8:30 Speaker 06 Notes from her friends, pictures of her family. So she had all the things that she loved with her. So we took, we had peace when we left last night.
8:43 Speaker 05 Wow.
8:44 Anderson Cooper? Before that interview, I was in their kitchen and I was talking to them and this was just days after their daughter was killed. And there was a photo of you on the refrigerator. And I said to Lynn, "Oh, do you like Kenny Chesney?" And her eyes lit up and she was like, "Oh, you know, Grace loved Kenny Chesney." And in fact, the morning she was killed, uh, we were standing at the school, excuse me.
9:06 Speaker 05 No, it's okay.
9:08 Anderson Cooper? We were standing at the school bus, waiting for the bus, and we were singing Kenny Chesney's song. And I texted you that night, because I had your number from doing the 60 Minutes piece. And I wasn't suggesting you do anything. I just, I just texted you to say, "Hey, I just want you to know, you really touched this family's life." And I'm sure you get that a lot, because you touch a lot of people's lives, but, but this family really loved you and this little girl that died really loved you. You texted me right back and you said you wanted to reach out to Lynn. And I, I got in touch with Lynn, made sure it was okay. You, you called Lynn and you spoke for a long time.
9:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, and we have since then become really good friends. I can't tell you how many shows her and Chris have come to over the years. And they actually brought me, uh, some, a piece of art that Grace painted.
9:58 Anderson Cooper? She loved painting.
9:59 Speaker 05 And gave it to me and I had it framed and it was in my bus for years. You know what's crazy? And this is, um, because I believe in, I'm a very spiritual person and I believe in people pushing people together. Do you know today, as we are sitting here talking, and I'm not sure when this is running, but as I'm sitting here talking, today's November the 4th, the day my book comes out, and I was going back and forth with Lynn on email just a couple of weeks ago, and she goes, "I'm really excited to see that your book's out, that it's coming out." And I said, "Well, thank you." She goes, "I think you need to know, November 4th is Grace's birthday. She would have been 20 years old today."
10:36 Anderson Cooper? Oh, my God.
10:37 Speaker 05 And here we are talking. You're the one that connected me with that family. Yeah, I know. I get chills thinking about it.
10:42 Anderson Cooper? I know.
10:42 Speaker 05 But today's her birthday. She would have been 20 today. And I don't know, I just.
10:48 Anderson Cooper? I just texted.
10:50 Speaker 05 Yeah.
10:50 Anderson Cooper? Her son Jack, just to check up on him, see how he's doing. It says, I mean, listen, I meet a lot of well-known people. There's not a lot of people who would not only have reached out to her in the worst moment of her life, for a conversation that would be nothing but difficult, and keep in touch with her. I mean, she's told me that she's gone to.
11:13 Speaker 05 No, she's gone to numerous shows, and every time they go to Hawaii, she brings me back a book, like this book on just every, All Things Aloha.
11:20 Anderson Cooper? Ah.
11:20 Speaker 05 And I have that in my house still today. And it's, um, it's.
11:24 Anderson Cooper? What do you say?
11:24 Speaker 05 It's been a real good friendship.
11:25 Anderson Cooper? You, you, I mean, when you step into somebody's grief like that, what do you say?
11:30 Speaker 05 You just try to be there for them. I mean, there's not a lot to say. I can't imagine being a parent and that happening. She told me all these things about Grace that made me feel just incredible. I mean, how much she loved the music and how much their family, you know, went to the beach and listened to it, and, and how much I was a part of their household. And when Grace passed, you know, they had, I think, I think her mother told me they had no shoes, no shirt, no problems written on the casket. I just think it's, uh, it's unbelievable that we're having this conversation on what would have been her 21st day.
12:02 Anderson Cooper? That's incredible.
12:03 Speaker 05 That it worked, the, the timing of it all.
12:05 Anderson Cooper? At the end of that horrible week, you, you actually came on, on CNN and you sang Amazing Grace.
12:11 Speaker 05 Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.
12:32 Speaker 05 I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see.
12:53 Speaker 07 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fear relieved. How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed?
13:36 Speaker 07 An amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see.
14:20 Speaker 07 I was blind, but now I see.
14:34 Anderson Cooper? That's beautiful. I love that song.
14:36 Speaker 05 Well, me too. You know, watching that, it's been, how many years now? And the fact that we have this in our country, and I know this is probably a whole other interview, but watching that, it's stunning that we still have to deal with it and that we still, I mean, I'm so sick of watching sporting events and having moments of silence. And it seems like there's been a lot. So, I don't know. And to know that grace would have been 20 years old today is, you know, it's just a life cut short. But I do feel a connection with her and that family. I really do.
15:11 Anderson Cooper? As do I.
15:12 Speaker 05 And thanks to you.
15:13 Anderson Cooper? You've sung about grief, you've sung about loss a couple of times.
15:18 Speaker 05 I think that the more you live, the more you experience loss. And I have, over the last several years, I have lost friends that I've written songs with, that I've collaborated with, I've lost heroes, I've lost island friends. And I don't think they're gone, they're here, they're here.
15:39 Anderson Cooper? You feel that?
15:41 Speaker 05 I feel it energetically, I feel them.
15:43 Anderson Cooper? It's interesting, because I never used to, I would hear people talk about that, and it's only in the last couple of years that I actually feel the people again.
15:52 Speaker 05 And I don't know that it's something that we ever get over.
15:58 Anderson Cooper? Yeah, I don't think there's getting over, I think there's kind of turning toward living with.
16:03 Speaker 05 Yeah, and I think especially if you lose someone, if they're young. I lost a friend of mine in the islands, and she was in her 30s. And when she passed, it was like we were all frozen in that moment forever, and at that age.
16:18 Anderson Cooper? There's another song you have, "Who You'd Be Today," which sort of speaks to that. I want to play a little bit of "Who You'd Be Today."
16:23 Speaker 05 Okay.
17:25 Speaker 07 Sunny days seem to hurt the most. I wear the pain like a heavy coat. The only thing that gives me hope is I know I'll see you again someday.
17:45 Speaker 05 I didn't write that song, but when I heard it, I specifically thought about, there was a couple of guys that lived across the street from me as a child. And we didn't have anything. We didn't have devices. We didn't have the internet. We didn't have cable, nothing. So all we did was play sports out in the backyard. And his name was Lance Wilson, and he got killed in a car wreck at 17 in Jacksonville, Florida after they'd moved away. That was the first time I really experienced real loss. And I heard this song, and I went, wow, that's exactly how I wonder about Lance. What he would have been like? Would he have had a family? Would he have, what he would have done with his life?
18:25 Anderson Cooper? More of my conversation with Kenny Chesney in a moment. But first, if you want to listen or watch past episodes of the podcast, you can do that wherever you get your podcasts, or on our grief community page at CNN.com/AllThereIs. That's where you can also watch our new weekly companion show, All There Is Live, Thursday nights at 9:15 PM, and catch past episodes of it as well. CNN.com/AllThereIs. I'll see you there. We'll be right back with more from Kenny Chesney.
18:54 Speaker 08 I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We're going to talk about rethinking how we die. How we think about death in the first place greatly informs how we live. Our guest is Dr. B.J. Miller. He's a hospice and palliative care physician.
19:12 Speaker 09 We are aging as a people. This is a worldwide phenomenon that we are aging and therefore getting closer to the end of life on some level as a group. It's not at all surprising that you'll see a revving up of interests, services, and also sort of anxiety that pushes us away from the subject and makes us cling to life.
19:32 Speaker 08 Listen to Chasing Life, streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.
19:41 Anderson Cooper? You had two beloved dogs who died.
19:44 Speaker 05 Poncho and Ruby.
19:45 Anderson Cooper? Okay.
19:45 Speaker 05 And we call them the DePoncho and the Rubegirl.
19:49 Anderson Cooper? There's a song, "De Rubegirl."
19:50 Speaker 05 Yes, I wrote a song called "De Rubegirl." And I was one of those guys that really didn't have dogs in their life, right? And I didn't even think about it. But my therapist, like, two days before Christmas, came to me. And she knocked on the door, and I opened the door, and it's her, and she has Poncho. And she goes, "Kenny, you have to learn to attach to something."
20:18 Speaker 05 And I was like, "Next thing you know, Anderson, I'm in an anxiety fit at PetSmart, not knowing what to get." So I just got, like, two of everything.
20:27 Speaker 05 And then, when Mary and I got together, she had a pit bull rescue. And so Ruby and Poncho never spent a day apart, ever. So when Ruby passed, she was a little older than Poncho. It was really, it was really difficult, you know, because we were family.
20:45 Anderson Cooper? Well, also, it's a loss that, and we've done, we have had people on the podcast-
20:49 Speaker 05 It's a terrible loss.
20:50 Anderson Cooper? About pet loss, because a lot of people don't view it the same way as, you know, it's a connection as strong as any other for many people.
20:59 Speaker 05 Anderson, I love animals, and I, when Ruby passed, it was really, really difficult. It was as terrible as any friend I've ever had that has passed.
21:11 Anderson Cooper? I just want to play a little of "De Rubegirl."
21:12 Speaker 05 Okay.
21:15 Speaker 05 I didn't see this coming. I love it.
21:27 Speaker 05 You'll see, this one's gonna get me.
21:30 Speaker 05 You needed her, she needed you.
21:37 Speaker 05 To hold, to help fill a space.
21:45 Speaker 05 Last of love, last cage at the rescue. Was a love that no one could replace.
21:57 Anderson Cooper? It's great. I've never heard it.
22:18 Speaker 05 I did a video on it and everything.
22:19 Anderson Cooper? Did you?
22:20 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah, that's true.
23:11 Speaker 05 Yeah, so, uh, you never know what's gonna inspire you.
23:14 Anderson Cooper? I love that.
23:15 Speaker 05 You know, but I, I love animals and, um, I love pit bulls and Ruby taught me-
23:20 Anderson Cooper? Pit bulls get a bad rap.
23:21 Speaker 05 Well, Ruby taught me a, a really good lesson.
23:24 Anderson Cooper? She was a rescuer, right?
23:25 Speaker 05 Yeah, but I grew up, um, in, in an environment where we were taught that pit bulls were dangerous and that pit bulls were mean and Ruby taught me a lesson. Like, if you mistreat an animal enough, any breed will be that way. And, yeah, they get a really bad rap. I mean, she was very loyal, she was very strong and, and, uh, she got to sleep in the bed a lot 'cause I, I let my dog sleep in the bed and, um, I miss that dog.
23:55 Anderson Cooper? Yeah, I heard you say that when you found out she had cancer- That rather than grieving while she was still alive, you wanted to fill her time
24:03 Speaker 05 Yeah.
24:04 Anderson Cooper? with love.
24:05 Speaker 05 Mary and I took her everywhere. She went to Florida, she went to Malibu, she went to the Virgin Islands. We didn't want to, you know, we didn't want to sit in the house and just watch her deteriorate because she was going to anyway. There was no stopping it. So we just filled her, me and Mary and Poncho, we went everywhere and she loved to lay in the sun, she loved to listen to the waves crash, and that's something that we had in common, you know, and so, it was hard. I mean, like, losing an animal, like, for a lot of years, we were, we were a unit, all of us.
24:39 Anderson Cooper? Of course.
24:40 Speaker 05 And so, that was as difficult of a, of a, of a death and grieving that I've ever experienced, honestly.
24:49 Anderson Cooper? Was there a time where you felt, okay, I'm ready to, to bring another four-legged creature into my life?
24:57 Speaker 05 Well, not, not yet, because Mary's still grieving it. I mean, she's just not ready. It's been, well, it'll be four years, uh, next month, so she's not ready, and it really crushed her. I was one of those guys that didn't really have animals in my life until Poncho and Ruby, but I spent so much time with them. Now, you know how you can go in a car and you can stop at a red light and there'll be a dog sitting, you know, with his head out the window? Like, now I can, I feel like, anyway, that I can look at that dog and dissect its personality. You know, not that I'm a dog whisperer or anything, but that's how much in tune I am now compared to before Poncho and Ruby.
25:41 Anderson Cooper? Just listening to that song, it reminds me of something you said about songwriting, and you write about it in the book. You said, "The job is to take a slice of life, write all about it, slice it down to what matters, then cut that feeling wide open."
25:53 Speaker 05 Yeah.
25:54 Anderson Cooper? I love that.
25:55 Speaker 05 Yeah, thank you. I mean, but it's difficult. That, I mean, finding commonality with people through songs and in a short period of time is, I have to scratch and claw for everything I get as a creative person. Yeah, but it's the part of my life that I truly love the most. And being creative and having that gift is one of the most unbelievable gifts that you could have. I've lost someone recently, you know, someone that I created with for a very long time. My friend Brett James, who was killed in a plane crash a couple of months ago. And it's been hard because we were brothers and we were songwriting partners. And we came from different places. But I mean, he wrote so many of my songs and those that he didn't write with me, I wrote with him.
26:38 Speaker 05 His creative energy and his creative soul changed my life. There's a huge part of my show that is, that's, that's our creative energy. And then all of a sudden, that stops. Do you feel him when you sing songs that you guys wrote together or worked on together? So the first time I sang one of his songs after he passed was at Farm Aid with Willie Nelson in Minneapolis. And all of a sudden it hit me, I was gonna do a song called "When the Sun Goes Down", which he wrote by himself. And it was the first time, it was really, the wound was really open, it was really fresh, his passing. And I had to go up there and sing that song. And I haven't had to sing it since.
27:20 Speaker 05 But I'm going to, but I'm not gonna let that stop, stop me. It's almost like in a celebratory way now. And I can't even believe that I'm, it's so fresh and new, the grief and everything and his passing, that I can't believe I'm talking about it in those terms. In the past tense? Yeah, and like, all of it, I create everything in the past tense. Because Brett was just one of those guys that, I mean, I thought was always gonna be around. And it's been really, really, really difficult. And it was, it was a moment that, that really hit the whole town of Nashville really hard. Because he, he just didn't create for me. I mean, he was a creative machine and a soul and a great, you know, and a great guy and a dear friend and...
28:05 Speaker 05 We went on a lot of riding trips together and we, I mean, we had a ton of authentic life fun. I mean, a lot. In the islands, you've seen a lot of those places, on the road, and he would share the stage with me. And, I don't know, he was just a brother. And it would just, he had a bad day in a plane, you know? And it sucks.
28:28 Anderson Cooper? Is there something you've learned in your grief or in the losses you've experienced that would be helpful for others who are going through it right now?
28:38 Speaker 05 Wow. Everyone is different. Time does heal some. It won't erase.
28:45 Anderson Cooper? It changes.
28:45 Speaker 05 It changes. Yeah. Your grief will change over time.
28:49 Anderson Cooper? Kenny Chesney, thank you so much.
28:51 Speaker 05 Thank you, my brother.
28:53 Anderson Cooper? Next week on All There Is, comedian and cancer survivor Tig Notaro. It's a funny and moving conversation about loss. Tig's close friend, poet Andrea Gibson, recently died, and Tig was at Andrea's bedside.
29:05 Speaker 10 I have to say, it's really the first time I've experienced a death in the way that I have, where I really feel Andrea. And I don't know what that is, but the grief leading up and the grief I feel, you know how tricky it is. You go about your day and you're doing all right, and then all of a sudden, a truck parks itself on your chest and you can't do anything because it's like, it's so confusing that Andrea's gone.
29:40 Anderson Cooper? Join me on Thursdays at 9:15 PM for my new weekly companion show called All There Is Live. It'll be livestreamed on our grief community page at CNN.com/AllThereIs every Thursday night at 9:15 PM. We can come together there, talk grief, and not be alone. You can also follow us on our new Instagram account, AllThereIs, and send us video messages there. Just make sure that you either record them on your phone and upload them directly to our Instagram message board, or if you record them directly in Instagram, make sure you click the "Allow Replay" prompt so that it reads "Keep in Chat," and that'll allow us to save your messages and possibly use them on the podcast. You can also leave us messages at our new voicemail box, 404-827-1805. Wherever you are in your grief, I'm glad we're together.
30:29 Speaker 11 Get ready for election night. CNN is available to stream live now with an All Access subscription. Plus, get exclusive content and interactive Q and As with CNN's journalists. Subscribe now. Visit CNN.com/AllAccess.
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