Pod Insights All In The Mind The paradox of petty problems: Why small annoyances can snowball About this episode Slow walkers. Unmelted cheese in a toastie. Bad formatting in documents.
If these small annoyances make you weirdly mad, you're not alone (in fact, you're human). But when little pet peeves add up, they can contribute much bigger problems like chronic stress. So what can you do about it?
Today: why small annoyances have such an outsized impact; why judging yourself doesn't help; and how elements of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) can help you better navigate these moments (as well as the bigger challenges in life).
And if you're not a fan of radical acceptance, which was covered in a recent episode, we go deeper on what it really means.
You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.
Guest:
Dr Patricia Zurita-OnaClinical psychologistAuthor
Credits:
Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Roi HubermanMore information:
Relationship of daily hassles, uplifts, and major life events to health status https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1983-05622-001The peculiar longevity of things not so bad https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14717826/Patricia's website and resources https://www.thisisdoctorz.com/Other recommended listening:
Chronically stressed? These small changes can help https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/lifestyle-medicine-chronic-stress/105376644Difficult people and radical acceptance: answering your questions about tricky relationships https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/difficult-people-mailbag-questions/105872190
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0:07 Speaker 00 Global roaming, we did try to stay weekly. The news said no, so five days a week it is. I'm Hamish McDonald.
0:14 Speaker 01 I'm Geraldine Duke and now joined by esteemed colleagues Latika Burke and Kylie Morris. Search for Global Roaming on the ABC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts.
0:27 Speaker 01 When people put an empty milk carton back in the fridge.
0:30 Speaker 02 When people are on a train and they're talking in their phone and it's really loud, especially when it's like a business call, so it's just so boring.
0:39 Speaker 03 People who queue at a bar. You stand along a bar, that's why it's built as a long bar.
0:46 Speaker 04 So recently, we asked a few people around the Radio National offices what their petty grievances or their small annoyances are. They did not hold back.
0:56 Speaker 05 If you're gonna be slow or if you wanna look at something on your phone, then just walk on the left. Some of us are in a rush or have places to be. Move.
1:06 Speaker 04 I mean, I don't know if it's just my colleagues that are particularly irritable, but there was an incredible variety of the kinds of things that can piss people off. Un-melted cheese in a toasted sandwich. I totally agree with that one.
1:18 Speaker 06 I hate it when people just throw everything in the recycling in the hope that it's recyclable.
1:21 Speaker 04 Also bad.
1:23 Speaker 00 When someone is standing right in front of the train doors as you're getting off.
1:27 Speaker 04 Yes, that is objectively annoying.
1:29 Speaker 03 Like someone says they'll do something. Lighting up one after the other.
1:34 Speaker 02 It was so violent.
1:38 Speaker 04 In one sense, these are all first world problems. They do not matter, but in certain circumstances, they can stack up to something bigger. Maybe not the cheese toastie example exactly, but other small annoyances.
1:52 Speaker 07 No one wakes up and says, I'm so excited to get cranky today. I can't wait. No one does that, right?
2:00 Speaker 04 Right, no.
2:00 Speaker 07 So our ability to deal with these little annoyances defines the quality of our life in the future, in the long term, because without that, what are the merits of those moments?
2:12 Speaker 04 And how we deal with these small annoyances might just hold lessons for how we deal with the bigger picture stuff as well.
2:19 Speaker 07 I am one of those people that I like to be informed. So I watch the news regularly and it's extremely painful. Now, that is not a little annoyance per se.
2:28 Speaker 04 Yeah, injustice isn't a small annoyance.
2:30 Speaker 07 See, you go, it's injustice in a very large scale here, right?
2:35 Speaker 04 I'm Sana Qadar. This is All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. And today we're covering the metaphorical pebble in your shoe that you cannot shake loose. Small annoyances. Why they can sometimes become such a big pain. How you can deal with these daily frustrations more effectively. And what it all has to do with a topic we've covered recently, but we're going to go into more detail. Radical acceptance.
3:07 Speaker 07 You know, most of us were used to hear about hard things happening to all of us. You get fired from your job. You have a car accident. You have a breakup. Those are big annoyances. But in our everyday life, there is also stuff that happens to us that we don't plan for, that it may feel like very mundane, very small. Like I spilled coffee in my rug. I cannot find my favorite painter's right. I couldn't find a headset for this podcast interview, right?
3:37 Speaker 04 This is Patricia Zurita Ono. She's an American psychologist and author, and she works primarily in anxiety. But she says these micro stressors, as she calls them, are often what people really want to chat to her about.
3:50 Speaker 07 So those events, while they are not life changing necessarily, they're actually a small annoyance and they're macro experiences that are affecting my everyday life. Because sometimes if I don't handle them in an effective way, they are going to set the tone for the rest of the day.
4:09 Speaker 04 And we get told not to sweat the small stuff. But I'm wondering, from your experience, do people tend to follow that advice? Or do they end up sweating the small stuff more than they should?
4:19 Speaker 07 I think on other edge, I would say most people will will get upset and will will get cranky about the smallest stuff that happens. And sometimes we feel embarrassed about sharing them, how this small annoyance has affected us.
4:33 Speaker 04 Uh huh.
4:34 Speaker 07 I think because of that, sometimes people may try to pretend like I am okay. It's not a big thing, but inside I'm like, oh gosh, why, why, why is this happening to me? I wish it would be easier to brush things off.
4:49 Speaker 04 Yeah, it feels silly to admit that you do sometimes sweat the small stuff and these small annoyances that really mean nothing, really do affect your mood. Why, why does that happen? Like, why is it hard to follow the advice, don't sweat the small stuff always?
5:06 Speaker 07 There's a bunch of reasons. I think sometimes we all, every human being walking on earth, we all carry different types of triggers or different types of emotional sensitivities. For example, some of the clients that I work with, um, they are extremely attuned to detail on aesthetics and they are interior designers or they are working on the production of films. So when they walk into a specific environment, if they see something that looks off, something that looks different, can be a big, big trigger for them. It's hard to understand how a person didn't pay attention to that detail. That is certainly not much my sensitivity, although I have a little bit of that.
5:46 Speaker 07 Some of these things that really get us are part of our learning history. That's one. It's it's some stuff that, you know, we deeply care about and because we care about, we, you know, we get affected by them.
6:00 Speaker 04 Like, for example, just to pause there for a moment, like with the coffee spilling, do you mean that that could really potentially alter your mood on a particularly rough day? If you're someone who cares about your appearance and you want to put forth a particular um look to the world and here you've gone and ruined it, is that why that something like that would get under your skin?
6:20 Speaker 07 There you are. That's a great example. Or if you care about the aesthetics of a document, you may care about someone sending you a document with a three different. Types of fonts, right? You may say, wow, this time's near rahman and cursive, right?
6:34 Speaker 04 That is a perfect small annoyance. Oh, my God, you've actually reminded me about one of my small annoy. It's formatting. When people can't get formatting right, it drives me mad.
6:42 Speaker 07 There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like, how does it happen? Don't you see, right?
6:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
6:47 Speaker 07 We all have these sensitivities about things that we deeply care about and that are part of who we are in the world. And also, if in a given moment, a person is in a situation in which they are exposed to major stressors, like the possibility of getting fired from work, the possibility of a breakup in your long relationship. All those big precipitants can make us more vulnerable to develop new sensitivities to daily hassles or micro stressors.
7:19 Speaker 04 Do you feel like people judge themselves when they are reacting that much to small annoyances? Because I certainly, sometimes I stop myself and I'm like, why am I getting so bent out of shape about this little thing? This is silly. It's just making things worse. Why am I doing this?
7:33 Speaker 07 No one wakes up and says, I'm so excited to get cranky today. I can't wait to get mad today, right? I am looking forward to get cranky today.
7:43 Speaker 04 Right.
7:43 Speaker 07 No one does that, right? We wake up with the best intentions of having a manageable and good day, all of us. So I think, um, I think that when these small annoyances happen, some of them, and I speak for myself and the clients I have worked with and friends I have talked about this, there is shame around this, right? Because again, reasonably speaking, we tell ourselves, I should keep in mind the big picture, larger things, larger perspective. But to be human is to be vulnerable to a stress. To be human is also be recognized that we are emotional beings. And sometimes, right, we're going to have loud feelings and loud sensations.
8:27 Speaker 07 But when we judge them, when we judge our internal experience, when I try to block it by saying, I shouldn't be upset about this and yet my heart is beating really fast or my hands are getting warm, right? I am not helping myself to go through the experience. I'm just powering through it.
8:47 Speaker 07 One of the things that we have found in research is that every time there is an uncomfortable experience, if we judge ourselves, if I try to replace it with something positive, like, come on Patricia, just let it go, move on, move on, move on, or if I just start dwelling on it, that sensation, instead of going down, actually goes up.
9:08 Speaker 04 Right.
9:09 Speaker 07 And that's why that way of responding to the internal experience makes it set the tone for the rest of the day, because I'm actually responding to it in a way that makes it last longer and longer than what it's supposed to.
9:22 Speaker 04 Let me just check that I got that correctly. So both pushing it down and pretending it's not a thing doesn't help, as well as indulging the feeling doesn't help? Is that what you're saying?
9:31 Speaker 07 Ruminating on the feeling, why I'm feeling this way, I shouldn't be feeling this, what's wrong with me, or judging yourself, what's wrong with me? Why do I get so mad about this, this, this thing? I shouldn't.
9:42 Speaker 04 Okay, so we'll get into how to deal with these feelings in a healthier way in a bit. But first, so we're talking about how small annoyances can become bigger things when you're in a particularly stressful time of life, they're reacting to the moment you're in. But also, is it correct that small annoyances themselves have a cumulative effect?
10:01 Speaker 07 Yeah, yeah. When we are exposed to these little annoyances often in your everyday life for X amount of time, that's when we are struck with chronic stress. That's when it becomes for your nervous system that habit of going to hyper vigilant mode and you feel like much more on edge, more than usual, right? So our ability to deal with these little annoyances defines the quality of our life in the future, in the long term.
10:30 Speaker 04 Patricia has written about these kinds of cumulative stresses, and she cites a study from the 1980s that found that people who experience more daily hassles, they report greater fatigue, headaches, and gastrointestinal symptoms.
10:45 Speaker 04 It's part of a group of papers that shared similar findings.
10:49 Speaker 07 There were a bunch of studies looking at the impacts and defects of dealing with these daily hassles. Right. That's one of them. But most of the studies, what they have found is when we don't deal with these daily hassles or micro stressors in an effective way, they do have this cumulative effect that affects our physiology. We do feel on edge most of the time. You may notice you have like a short, you know, you're snapping at things that usually you don't. There is definitely changes in sleeping patterns, appetite patterns, exercise patterns. And on an emotional level, people will experience much more tonal worry, they're more likely to experience depression. They are more likely to experience relationship problems.
11:30 Speaker 04 And when we talk about those kind of effects, I imagine that's not going to be the result of like spilling coffee on yourself. What kind of, or maybe it will, but like what kind of small annoyances repeated over time can lead to these kind of effects?
11:44 Speaker 07 That's a great, that's a great question, right? I think people sometimes, some of the researchers, they have tried to classify some of these daily hassles. Interpersonal hassles, more situational hassles. But there is no, I think, a clear, one single way of looking at these daily hassles. But what these researchers found is that it may sound very ridiculous. But if during a day you struggle because you spill your coffee, because you don't find your keys. All of those daily stresses, what may feel small and manageable, are going to affect your wellbeing.
12:17 Speaker 04 Yeah.
12:18 Speaker 07 And the more that they happen, the more I get stuck and judge myself again. And I just try to power to them, pretend they're not there. They are going to have an effect. So it doesn't matter the type of daily hassle or micro stress you're dealing with. It's the amount of times you're getting stuck on them.
12:37 Speaker 04 I feel like you're making me think of an example in my life that illustrates this perfectly. And it's kind of embarrassing, but it really encapsulates why something on the surface meaningless on a day to day basis can like really have this compounding effect. I'll tell you what it is.
12:54 Speaker 07 Okay.
12:54 Speaker 04 I have this wardrobe that is 15 years old and it is falling apart. The thing is literally falling apart. It's like been held together by, you know, like practically duct tape. And every time I open my wardrobe to get my clothes out for the day or whatever I need, inevitably stuff spills out because it kind of, I've had the same wardrobe for 15 years as well. So it's like completely full. And every day it's a battle to just get myself dressed because this thing is completely unwieldy and falling apart and heaving at this point. And over the past year in particular, I've been like, this is nuts. How much of my morning it takes up dealing with the irritation of getting clothes? And on, you know, a single day, whatever. But over the course of a year, every day, that is annoying.
13:38 Speaker 04 I need to get rid of this wardrobe is really what I have to do at this point.
13:41 Speaker 07 Yeah, but that's a beautiful example of how something that seems so mundane, so small, so, yeah, oh, my gosh, it shouldn't be like this big deal. It sets the tone for the moment. And what happens when you start judging yourself and say, what a disorganized person I am. I should have done this earlier. What's wrong with me? Why I'm not fixing that? All that doesn't help. So something so small like that, yes, can have a strong repercussions in our well-being, our mental health.
14:13 Speaker 04 There is another weird psychological theory about why small annoyances can add up to be a big problem, even more so than the big issues that we might face in our lives. It's called the region beta paradox. Unusual name, but here's how it works. Imagine you're in a so-so relationship. You don't end it because, well, it's okay. It's not great. It's not bad. So it continues on and you're in this middle ground of unhappiness for weeks or months or maybe even years. If the relationship was worse, you would take action. Maybe you'd end it. The whole idea of this paradox is that big problems generally make us take action to address them, to solve them.
14:56 Speaker 04 But small problems, we might just put up with them again and again and again, like my wardrobe. The paradox was first written about back in 2004 in a paper called "The Peculiar Longevity of Things Not So Bad."
15:14 Speaker 04 Now, in her practice as a psychologist, Patricia Zurita Ona uses something called acceptance and commitment therapy to help patients with a range of issues, but one of them being dealing with life's small annoyances. And there's a couple of elements to this kind of therapy. It's a form of cognitive behavior therapy, CBT. Let's start with the acceptance part.
15:37 Speaker 07 Really tapping more into acceptance of the discomfort that comes with the daily hassles. And acceptance translates into just describing what you're sensing and feeling. I'm noticing my hands getting sweaty. I'm noticing my heart is beating fast. I'm noticing this sensation in my stomach. Notice I'm not judging that sensation or the emotion, right? I'm not saying, I notice this awful and annoying sensation in my stomach, right? I'm simply describing what I'm noticing in my body. Acceptance also means giving a name to that sensation. It doesn't have to be the perfect name, but means saying, I'm noticing I'm feeling anxious right now.
16:21 Speaker 07 I'm noticing some stress kicking in right now. And but the other way to manage these daily hassles is just accept the experience of what you're going through. And you ask yourself, what really matters to me in this moment? In a moment in which I'm looking at the stain on the rug and I see that, you know, the coffee is spilling and spilling and spreading on the rug. Wow, that's really important to me. And part of this therapy is helping, guiding people on finding what truly matters to them. Because it's in that moment when we tap into the things that matter to us that we create the space between the experience, the annoying experience, and how I want to be in this world in this moment.
17:05 Speaker 07 How do I want to show up to the person in front of me? How do I want to show up to myself as I'm in distress? Our values become our compass in terms of that action I want to take. So in a nutshell, if I can summarize, acceptance and commitment therapy is about
17:24 Speaker 07 Making room for your uncomfortable internal experience, figuring out what matters and do what matters while being uncomfortable.
17:33 Speaker 04 We'll talk about how to identify your values and what really matters to you in a moment, but I just want to backtrack a bit to the acceptance part for a second. Would you call that radical acceptance?
17:43 Speaker 07 Some people in the Buddhist literature have talked already about radical acceptance. I find it very powerful to talk about radical acceptance because it's not just saying I'm feeling this or sensing that. I know I presented like that as a skill, right? But I think we liberate ourselves from suffering when we learn to make room for the stuff that happens inside us and the stuff in front of us. I think it is certainly a skill, but it's also a philosophy of how to live life. In life, we're going to suffer much more if I hold on to rules about how things are supposed to be or how things should be or how others should behave towards me.
18:28 Speaker 07 But again, while acceptance is a psychological skill, it is also a way of liberating ourselves from the suffering that comes from trying to control something we don't have control of, whether that's external or internal.
18:41 Speaker 04 We have touched on radical acceptance on the show somewhat recently. And yeah, I completely see the liberating aspect of it. We have also had emails and messages from people who find radical acceptance a bit frustrating or perhaps, you know, an annoyance in itself because to them it can seem quite passive. It's not an active way of addressing the problems you might face. What do you say to that perspective?
19:08 Speaker 07 I think there is a difference between resignation and passivity versus accepting reality. And here's the big difference. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to advocate for the things that I want to advocate. It means that I accept reality as it happens, which actually is the opposite of being passive. Because being passive, it's like a single response in some way, but accepting reality is much, much Much courageous, it's actually a bold, bold move.
19:37 Speaker 04 Okay.
19:37 Speaker 07 Because you you are acknowledging your limitations as a human being. I acknowledge I don't have the control over this situation, over this person's behaviour. That's much harder than trying to control people, right? That you shouldn't talk to me, you should do this, right? I think I think it is true, a lot of people confuse acceptance with resignation. But accepting that there are unfair situations. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to advocate for certain values at certain time in a given moment.
20:09 Speaker 04 Okay, so let's let's bring it down to like specific examples. So.
20:12 Speaker 07 Yeah.
20:12 Speaker 04 If your particular annoyance is slow walkers on the sidewalk. Um, uh, or actually, do you know what? Can I play you some small annoyances that people sent us? Can I?
20:23 Speaker 07 Please, I would love that, that's awesome.
20:25 Speaker 04 Let me play this and then we can talk about these as examples.
20:28 Speaker 02 When people are on a train and they're talking in their phone and it's really loud. And you just think, shut up, I'm not interested.
20:36 Speaker 06 Every time I see an SUV or a giant ute parked outside of the lines, it drives me nuts.
20:43 Speaker 00 Real estate agents putting their mail into my letterbox, even though I have a junk mail sign. It's wasting your paper, it's wasting my time, don't do it.
20:52 Speaker 05 Okay, my pet peeve or like small annoyance is people who walk slowly but also meander from side to side so that you can't overtake them.
21:01 Speaker 04 What do you make of those annoyances and how might people deal with those?
21:07 Speaker 07 I I just love what you play and thank you for people, you know, sharing this is small annoyances. They are so real, right? I think as we were listening to both of us were kind of like nodding and smiling because I'm sure we have moments like that.
21:20 Speaker 04 Totally, slow walkers, junk mail, when you have a no junk mail sign, yeah, absolutely.
21:23 Speaker 07 My gosh, my gosh, right? So in regard to those situations, acceptance with radical acceptance would mean acknowledging that I don't have control of the pace that person next to me decides to walk. Right?
21:38 Speaker 04 Yeah.
21:38 Speaker 07 But the more if I hold on to the thought she shouldn't be walking this way, what's wrong with her? Doesn't she know this is next to her or behind her? Doesn't she know this about other people around here? So selfish of her, so self-focused. That way of thinking is keep going to keep me stuck. Because fundamentally, right? I am not accepting that this person is choosing her freedom to walk. I'm not accepting that.
22:04 Speaker 04 Right.
22:05 Speaker 07 And then the question comes, what really matters to me in this moment? Sometimes your values is going to be speak up my truth, speak up my experience. And then a values-based behaviors to say, excuse me, you know, I'm next to you, I'm behind you.
22:19 Speaker 04 This is my question, like, I, you know, at what point can you, as part of acceptance and commitment therapy? Like, can you actually make action? Can you say, I'm so sorry, I'm behind you, can I pass through?
22:29 Speaker 07 Of course, because your value in that moment could be it is important for me to accept myself. It's important for me to speak up what I'm going through when something is uncomfortable, right? Other times, your value may not be speaking up in that moment. You know, I'm a little bit upset right now. I don't know how I'm going to come across. It is important for me not to come across as a cranky person.
22:53 Speaker 04 Hmm.
22:54 Speaker 07 I'm not in the place to have those small interactions that can be upsetting or triggering, right? Sometimes I may say it is important for me to be as put together as possible before I go into this job interview. So in this moment, I am going to choose my well-being and I'm going to focus on my breathing as I keep walking next to this person.
23:16 Speaker 04 Yeah.
23:16 Speaker 07 So, so in a given moment, there are going to be different values and actions we can take. Acceptance is the first step to make that choice. Without practicing radical acceptance, we are more at the mercy of reacting to a situation.
23:33 Speaker 04 The other question I had on that is, is there a risk that acceptance can reduce us from, or like, stop us from pushing to change situations that are just, you know, objectively? Bad or harmful, like how does ACT guard against that? You know, you don't want to roll over in the face of stuff that's really actually not great.
23:52 Speaker 07 Yeah, that's a great question. In the States currently, we're witnessing very, very hard situations to watch. I am one of those people that I like to be informed, so I watch the news regularly. And it's extremely painful. Now, that is not a little annoyance per se, right? That is not example of a little annoyance.
24:11 Speaker 04 Yeah, injustice isn't a small annoyance.
24:13 Speaker 07 There you go, injustice in a very large scale, yeah, right? In a very large way. Sometimes the value again is going to be speaking up your truth, speaking up your experience. You are willing to be judged by others in the service of your value. Sometimes the value is to prepare yourself for the next visit you're going to do to one of your relatives in a hospital. And you know that they're not in the place to talk about what's going on in politics in that country, for example, so your value is going to be different. So I think it is natural that there is skepticism about this idea of acceptance. I get that.
24:54 Speaker 07 But when trying to control a reality that we cannot control, we're adding more suffering to our lives.
25:02 Speaker 04 So in acceptance and commitment therapy, values are ways of doing things, how you want to behave on a daily basis. Some values might include being honest, or reliable, or compassionate to others. People work on identifying which values are most important to them, and then living their life in a way that's consistent with those values. And if you're wondering how you can go about identifying your most important values, Patricia says there's a few exercises you can do. One is to visualize your 80th birthday, and imagine that your family and friends and loved ones are all giving speeches about you. What do you want them to say about you and how you've lived your life?
25:44 Speaker 07 And then you can write those things down and then look what are the themes.
25:48 Speaker 04 Another exercise involves imagining that you only have 24 hours left on earth. What do you want to do with those hours? How do you want to be in those 24 hours?
26:00 Speaker 04 And then similarly to the 80th birthday, think about what you want your obituary to say about what kind of person you were. How do you want to be remembered?
26:08 Speaker 07 Here lies Patricia. She stood up for, or she cared about that, that, that.
26:14 Speaker 04 All of that can help you land on what you really care about in terms of your values.
26:22 Speaker 04 So the sense I'm getting is acceptance and commitment therapy helps you not to react to everything willy-nilly without kind of interrogating how you're feeling and helps you choose when and where and how to take action that is in line with your values. So the outcome is more helpful overall. Is that correct?
26:39 Speaker 07 I think that is a beautiful, beautiful summary. And I think when I am driven only by thoughts, when I'm driven only by emotions, only driven by sensations, most of the times I'm just reacting, but I'm not necessarily living with meaning.
26:54 Speaker 04 Then I guess just to end, if there is a final message you would want to give people who are either struggling, A, with the small annoyances, the main topic of today's, you know, episode, or B, the greater injustices in the world that they see happening on the news every day, what would you say to them as some parting words on how to deal with these two sort of different ends of the spectrum of what we face in life?
27:18 Speaker 07 Yeah, that's such a great question, right? And there is this other approach in life to treat ourselves and others and also psychologically skill, which is self-compassion. I think for anyone listening to us, regardless of type of level of annoyance they are dealing in their lives in this moment, I will encourage them to treat themselves with kindness. And practicing self-compassion or treating yourself with kindness doesn't mean, again, that you're saying, it's okay, right? It's okay. It is simply acknowledging that you're hurting in a given moment. It's about staying present with your feeling. The more that we learn to make room for our hurts, whatever the hurt is or whoever
28:00 Speaker 07 caused it, the more skillful we're going to be in choosing our next move.
28:06 Speaker 04 Perfect. Patricia, thank you so much. That was really helpful.
28:09 Speaker 07 Thank you so much, San. I really appreciate it.
28:13 Speaker 04 That is clinical psychologist and author Dr. Patricia Zurita Ono.
28:21 Speaker 04 We mentioned a few studies in this episode. If you are interested in finding out more, we will link to those papers in our show notes.
28:30 Speaker 04 And that's it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen, and sound engineer Roi Huberman. I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I am off to buy a new wardrobe. I will catch you next time.
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