Pod Insights All In The Mind The music that saves us About this episode When bad things happen, do you berate yourself or treat yourself with compassion? Do you journal, meditate, or listen to music?
Growing up, Sabrina McKenzie always turned to music to help her through her worst moments.
As she got older and began studying psychology, she realised what she felt when she listened to sad or angry songs ... was self-compassion.
In the field of positive psychology there’s plenty of research on how journalling and meditation can cultivate self-compassion (and plenty of research suggesting self-compassionate people are more mentally and physically healthy).
But Sabrina was shocked to learn there was no research on whether music could cultivate self-compassion. She decided to change that.
Today: the songs that saved Sabrina, and the novel research looking for a link between music and self-compassion.
This episode touches on the topic of sexual abuse, please take care while listening.
Guest:
Sabrina McKenzieAssociate Lecturer in musicPhD candidate in music psychologyUniversity of Melbourne, Melbourne Conservatorium of Music
Credits:
Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Roi HubermanYou can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.
Music to listen to:
Why Trust You - Alice Cooper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGqxoFMCDk&list=RDaFGqxoFMCDk&start_radio=1Now I Can Dance - Tina Arena https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDpFXzeVFO4&list=RDVDpFXzeVFO4&start_radio=1This Is Me (Official Audio) — The Greatest Showman Cast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEJd2RyGm8Q&list=RDwEJd2RyGm8Q&start_radio=1"Saying Goodbye" — Ondara https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WchPdy7jHZ4&list=RDWchPdy7jHZ4&start_radio=1More information:
Self-compassion as a predictor of interleukin-6 response to acute psychosocial stress https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0889159113005370#:~:text=The%20present%20research%20examined%20the,of%20the%20corresponding%20inflammatory%20responseA Systematic Review on Mediation Studies of Self-Compassion and Physical Health Outcomes in Non-Clinical Adult Populations https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12671-022-01935-2Exploring the role of music listening in cultivating self-compassion https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/03057356251381818Support:
Lifeline https://www.lifeline.org.au/ 13 11 14
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
0:07 Speaker 01 It is a truth universally acknowledged that on one's 250th birthday, there should be a celebration. I'm Claire Nichols and on The Book Show, we're raising our teacups to Jane Austen. Why Austen? What is it about her? Authors Colum Tobin, Karen Joy Fowler and more will explore why in 2025, the Austen Effect is bigger than ever. It's quite incredible. Search for The Book Show and look for Dear Jane wherever you get your podcasts, or hear it now on the ABC Listen app.
0:38 Speaker 02 A quick heads up before we start. This episode touches on the topic of sexual abuse.
0:49 Speaker 02 When Sabrina McKenzie thinks back to her early childhood, the soundtrack she hears is a bit like this.
0:56 Speaker 03 Just reggae, lots of that good soul kind of music. Bob Marley, UB40. My brother and I used to do so many duets, oh, so many duets. We both sing and we're both musicians as we grew older as well.
1:11 Speaker 02 She grew up in Melbourne, one of five kids, and her very earliest musical memory...
1:17 Speaker 03 Singing Greatest Love of All by Whitney Houston in very many family concerts, many times. We'd find a stage anywhere we were. If we're at home, there was like, you know, a table, we'll build a stage and would sing a song. Always a lot of playing, creating and singing.
1:34 Speaker 02 Now, it all sounds like the elements of a lovely, loving childhood, but that's not exactly how things played out.
1:42 Speaker 03 I've kind of blocked out some of the music that I listened, that my parents pretty much listened to back in the day, only because it triggers me. I was a, I am a survivor of childhood abuse and trauma. And so that was, I feel like a lot of my childhood was spent experiencing abuse. And then a lot of my teenage years was then spent fighting the person that caused this abuse. And so I feel like a lot of the memories that I had back then, a lot of the reggae songs and a lot of the Bob Marley are songs that I kind of put in the backseat because they brought up a lot of things I didn't want to think about.
2:25 Speaker 02 That's not to say Sabrina turned away from all music altogether. In fact, music is what kept her going through her darkest moments. Like when one section of her family refused to believe her about the abuse she was suffering. Or when her younger brother died. There were very specific songs that got her through those experiences. And now, as a PhD researcher in music psychology, Sabrina is investigating whether music can not just reflect or influence our emotions, there's plenty of work on that already, but whether music can influence the way we treat ourselves. Like whether it can spark self-compassion.
3:05 Speaker 03 Self-compassion, it's all about training yourself with that same kindness, warmth, care, understanding that you would easily offer to a friend who is going through a tough time. Research shows that it is a strong predictor of mental health.
3:16 Speaker 02 But self-compassion takes cultivation. You don't suddenly become nice to yourself if your usual pattern is to be self-critical. And research has mostly focused on how practices like meditation or journaling can cultivate self-compassion. But Sabrina's hunch is that music can be an even lower barrier to entry.
3:36 Speaker 03 I wanted to know if we could use music as that facilitator to then get to self-compassion. And when I say music, I mean everyday music, the music that we like to listen to, not a music that someone's giving you and saying, "Here, listen to this."
3:52 Speaker 02 It's a hunch born from her own experiences, and now it's the subject of her study. So today, the songs that saved Sabrina and the novel research digging for a link to self-compassion. From ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar.
4:17 Speaker 03 So I was sexually abused throughout my childhood. I don't remember how young I was when it started, but it ended when I was about 14 years old. And so I feel like a lot of my childhood was spent experiencing this abuse. It wasn't just that type of abuse. It was also physical abuse. And I feel like my childhood memories are wrapped up in that pain.
4:44 Speaker 02 Sabrina didn't get to benefit from therapy until much later in life. And so in the meantime, all she had was music. And one of the first songs that she found solace in is perhaps one you wouldn't expect. It's an Alice Cooper song.
5:00 Speaker 03 I used to make a mixtape. And it was a mixtape that had, I can remember it, like feel, written on the top of it. And it was funny because back then, in order to make a mixtape, you had to have the physical version of the music to be able to make the mixtape. Or you had to be there at the right time when the radio was playing it. So sometimes it's just half a chorus and half a verse. But there was this song by Alice Cooper called Why Trust You? I only had a chorus and a verse of it. And it was just these lyrics that just spoke about, why trust you, why trust you? And it was just this song that I had to keep playing for myself to keep going. After I came out about the abuse
5:45 Speaker 03 and I spoke to my mum about it and we did everything that we needed to do to get through that moment, parts of my family called me a liar and I was not believed, pretty much. And I was very confused at that time. And it made me think, why trust him and not me? And I had to just keep this song on repeat because I felt like it was the only thing that got me. It was the only thing that understood me. And I could be alone and still feel like I was supported.
6:17 Speaker 02 How old were you when you told your family?
6:19 Speaker 03 I think I was 13, 13, 14.
6:25 Speaker 02 I wish I could play you the actual song. Unfortunately, we don't have the rights to it, although we do have the rights to another song that Sabrina will mention in a moment. But if you're not familiar with Alice Cooper and his sound and the song "Why Trust You" in particular, it sounds vaguely like this.
6:45 Speaker 02 I was listening to "Why Trust You" this morning because I hadn't actually heard it myself. It's very hardcore.
6:51 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's hardcore. It's quite, I find Alice Cooper's singing, I love his voice, but it can be comical at times as well. Yeah, theatrical, I should say, not comical, but very theatrical. And that's how I describe the song. It's hardcore. It's got lots of electric guitar sounds in there and it's theatrical with his performance. And I think that's what I needed. I needed that punch to get to me. And I felt like other people, if this song was written, then other people are going through this too. The artist was going through it too. And I felt like I was more connected to people that were going through pain. And so I wasn't alone in what I was experiencing.
7:31 Speaker 02 That's really significant because I don't think you were going through therapy at this time either.
7:35 Speaker 03 I wasn't, no. I started therapy a lot later on. I pushed back on that quite a lot because I didn't want to talk. There was so much shame for letting what happened, happened. And so I didn't want to, I didn't want to talk about it. And I feel like music was able to let me put my emotions into words, which then allowed me later on to be able to go and get the help that I needed professionally to work through it.
8:05 Speaker 02 As Sabrina grew older, her relationship with music deepened.
8:10 Speaker 03 In my teenage years, I feel like I used music a lot more to help myself, but it was in combination with singing as well. There's this song that I was performing as part of my singing lessons at the time, "I'm Out Here on My Own" by Irene Cara from Fame. I remember standing in my singing lessons and singing this song. And at the end of the song, I bawled my eyes out crying. And my singing teacher stopped me and she said, "You were going somewhere when you were singing that song." And I said to her, "I was." And there's, there's this, there's these lyrics in the song where they're speaking about being alone and "I'm out here on my own." And then there's this part where...
8:52 Speaker 03 The lyrics say, "Baby be strong for me, baby belong to me, help me through, help me need you." And my singing teacher asked me, "Who are you singing that to? Is there someone that you're singing that to?" And I said, "You know what? I'm actually singing that to myself. I'm singing that to my younger self. She's still there. At the moment, I'm going through some really challenging times, but I need her. And that's what I'm singing about in that song. And I feel like my teenage years was more about finding songs that I was able to connect to in that way.
9:29 Speaker 02 Then, when Sabrina was in her twenties, her family suffered a devastating loss. By this point, she had moved out of the home and she was studying a Bachelor of Music.
9:39 Speaker 03 My second youngest brother, Jermaine, he was born with Down Syndrome and tubal sclerosis. And when he turned six, he was then diagnosed with leukemia. And at that point in time, he was the only one in the world to have all three conditions.
9:54 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
9:54 Speaker 03 Yeah. And so this obviously was massive for his medical team. They had no idea how to treat or how he was going to respond to treatment. Jermaine was, I guess you would say, he was my best friend. He didn't talk, he couldn't walk, but we communicated in some sort of way. He would sit and he would listen to me blabble on about so many things without judgment. I think he was the first person that I spoke to or shared my abuse to, because there was no judgment coming from him. He was a beautiful soul.
10:34 Speaker 02 Doctors thought Jermaine would only live for three more months, but he ended up living three more years.
10:40 Speaker 03 He passed away when he was nine. And even though he was 12 years, I was 12 years older than him. We had a super special bond. So when I lost him, I not only lost my brother, I lost my best friend.
10:56 Speaker 02 And so when he died, there was a particular song that you played at his funeral that has a lot of meaning for you and your family. Tell me about that song.
11:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, so my family and I were sitting around the table planning Jermaine's funeral and we were thinking about a song that we could walk him out of his celebration of life to where we're carrying his casket. And we started listening to Tina Arina's "Now I Can Dance".
11:24 Speaker 03 At the start, it sounds like this journey, like this chugging along. And there's some absolutely beautiful lyrics in there, such as "Give my mother a kiss, tell her I'm okay".
11:39 Speaker 03 And then my absolute favourite, "Though I can only imagine the sadness in your eyes, please understand, now I can dance".
11:55 Speaker 03 And, oh, I'm getting a little bit choked up.
11:58 Speaker 02 Fair enough.
11:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, and so what's really interesting to me is that the original writers of this song intended the lyrics to resemble this transition of demanding work as a musician to artistic freedom. But my family saw these lyrics and the content so differently. We saw it as Jermaine's transition from this life into this freedom, this life that he can now be free and now he could dance without pain. It felt like his message to us as well and his present to us to let us know, "I'm gonna be okay". It's a song that I revisit so many times when I want to remember him and to remember the freedom that he now has.
12:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, and so when it was played at his celebration of life, what was that moment like?
12:46 Speaker 03 I was mess by that stage. We walked out of that celebration, I think, as a stronger unit. It was like a continuation of his journey. Our walkout wasn't the end. It was our walkout to his new beginning.
13:03 Speaker 02 How often do you listen to the song now?
13:06 Speaker 03 I've actually been listening to it a lot more lately.
13:09 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
13:09 Speaker 03 My kids, I've got three young kids and we've got pictures of Jermaine up in our house and we speak about Jermaine a lot. And I was playing the song to them the other day and my 11 year old was like, oh, I'm going to put this on my Feel playlist. We have playlists at home.
13:27 Speaker 02 That's cute. They have a Feel playlist.
13:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, they have a Feel playlist, just like my Feel mixtape that I used to have when I was a kid. But my 11 year old said, I'm going to put this on my Feel playlist and I'm going to listen to it because I want to connect with him. And I think it's a really beautiful song for me to have that connection with someone that I've never met. And I think it's such a beautiful thing that music can do. This song has become part of my story. It's become part of my family. It's become part of my memory. Regardless of what the intentions were in that creation of the song, it's now shaped into our life.
14:09 Speaker 02 You're listening to All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar.
14:17 Speaker 02 Sabrina didn't launch into her career planning to study music psychology, but given her story, it's not surprising that life landed her there.
14:27 Speaker 03 I was doing a Bachelor of Music at RMIT and then many years later, I decided to pursue a master's in applied positive psychology at the University of Melbourne. And it was through that course that I started learning about self compassion and its ability to help with mental health and wellbeing. It's actually a strong predictor of mental health. And there was a practice that we needed to do as students over a period of time and then report back on it. And this practice was meditation, love and kindness meditations done on a daily basis to achieve self compassion. And I was like, yeah, cool. I'm going to do this and I'm going to see if I can become more self compassionate.
15:09 Speaker 03 And it was great. It was fantastic. I scored higher after I had done all these meditations. But there was one morning that I woke up after I'd finished the course of meditations and I thought to myself, I was achieving this back when I was a teenager with music.
15:27 Speaker 02 Right.
15:28 Speaker 03 I was actually feeling these same feelings back then when I was using music. And so I was digging in the research, seeing is there anything using music to cultivate self compassion? And there wasn't. There were many studies that used a specific song or a specific soundtrack for many people, but not about music in itself and looking at what music can do for this specific skill.
15:54 Speaker 02 A word on self compassion for a moment. It's a concept in positive psychology that's been studied for over two decades now and basically involves treating yourself with the same kind of kindness or care you would offer a friend who was going through a tough time. In the literature, it's defined as involving three elements. There's self kindness, which is self explanatory. There's common humanity, which means recognizing that mistakes and suffering are universal experiences. And there's mindfulness, which is the ability to be present with your pain without over identifying with it. There is a growing body of evidence that links self compassion with not just improved mental health, but improved physical health.
16:39 Speaker 03 So self compassionate people, they also measure healthier. So they have lower stress responses, reduced inflammation, better heart resilience.
16:48 Speaker 02 There are a few pathways for why this might be the case. One is that self compassionate people might be more motivated to take care of their health in the first place, which makes sense. If you like yourself, you'll take better care of yourself. But research also shows that self compassion can bolster your ability to deal with the problems that life throws at you, which in turn can lower your stress response, which has all these kinds of flow on effects to your physical health. One thing to mention is that one systematic review of the literature on self compassion and health that was published in 2022 noted that many studies still rely on self reporting, which is widely used, but it can have its limitations. It requires people to accurately assess their internal states.
17:32 Speaker 02 Either way, multiple studies and reviews do suggest there is a connection between health and self compassion.
17:41 Speaker 03 And it's interesting because so much of the music listening literature points towards self compassion without directly saying it's self compassion.
17:48 Speaker 02 Oh, right. If they don't say self compassion, what do they say?
17:50 Speaker 03 They talk about emotion regulation. They talk about mood enhancement. They talk about, you know, there was one study that connected to common humanity, so looking at that, you know, not feeling alone. So it doesn't necessarily look at self compassion in itself. And one thing I was really interested in, and specifically because people that are self compassionate measure healthier, so that lower stress responses, reduced inflammation, better heart resilience. I wanted to know if we could use music as that facilitator to then get to self compassion. So in the clinical spaces, in wellbeing spaces, meditation is used a lot to be able to get to self compassion.
18:34 Speaker 03 There's also journaling that's used a lot and physical activity. But no one was using music. And when I say music, I mean everyday music, the music that we like to listen to, not a music that someone's giving you and saying, here, listen to this and see how you go.
18:50 Speaker 02 So you wanted to see whether we could achieve the benefits of meditation or journaling on our own with just the music that we love listening to?
18:58 Speaker 03 Definitely. Like, music is in our back pockets, right? It's on our phone. It's not an additional thing that we need to tell people to do. We're already doing it. The statistic is we're already spending 20.7 hours a week listening to music.
19:12 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
19:13 Speaker 03 So why not flip that and use some of those hours to better our mental health and wellbeing and to do it intentionally?
19:23 Speaker 02 It's this gap in the research that Sabrina is trying to address with her PhD.
19:29 Speaker 03 Because there's not much research in music cultivating self compassion, our very first study had to... Show that music has this ability to do this. And so very first study that we did, we found that 81% of people experienced self compassion as a result of listening to music. And this study was done in 2021 during the COVID-19 lockdowns. And it was this time where we were all in this collective pain. And so we were really interested to see how music was impacting people's care and kindness for themselves. And 81% were experiencing self compassion as a result of listening to music.
20:10 Speaker 02 How did you do that study and how many people were involved?
20:13 Speaker 03 Yeah, so it was through a survey with scales as well. So we used the self compassion scale to measure self compassion. We as well asked participants to explain their music listening experiences, to provide us with some details on a time where they felt self compassion as a result of listening to music and to give us a little story or a memory. A lot of people spoke about using music to sit in pain, to have a cathartic release. One surprising thing that came out is that even though people were alone, they felt like they had a friend in the room. It was like music was a social surrogate for them.
20:51 Speaker 02 Right.
20:52 Speaker 03 This friend that was able to be with them during that space and during that time.
20:57 Speaker 02 In a more recent study, Sabrina has gone deeper into qualitative research.
21:02 Speaker 03 We've just finished a study at the moment that's being written up, that we had long in-depth conversations with people that use music during hardships and their experiences with self compassion. And we're finding similar patterns. So we're chatting to people that deliberately go to music when they're feeling down. We're figuring out what type of music they're listening to, what styles of songs, is it the lyrics that are getting them to a certain place? Is it their connection with a specific artist? And what we're actually finding is that it's so different for so many different people. I spoke to one guy who doesn't really enjoy his work.
21:46 Speaker 03 And what he does before he gets to work is he plays Slipknot heavy metal music in the car. And he said, as soon as he gets to his job, he's able to open the door, shut the door, and weights lifted off his shoulders. He's able to just get all that anger out and he has a much better day as a result of it. And some people that I spoke to wouldn't even touch heavy metal when they're feeling down. And so I think the important thing that we're finding is that different people respond to music in different ways.
22:22 Speaker 02 There have been other individual research papers as well, looking at, for example, Spotify playlists that are titled self compassion and analysing the songs you find in those playlists.
22:33 Speaker 03 A lot of songs that are telling you when times get tough, you've got this. So the most popular song on the list was This Is Me from The Greatest Showman. That was a song that was found on repeated playlists that were labelled for self compassion.
22:48 Speaker 02 She's also doing work looking at the difference between passive and active listening.
22:53 Speaker 03 So passive is like, you know, we're listening to music with another activity, whether it's we're exercising or doing housework rather than, you know, active listening. So when we're sitting and engaging in that music listening experience, I feel like I did that engagement quite a lot when I was younger and I'm doing a lot more of this music listening experience where it's done with a different activity now. So we're looking at the differences between those types of music listening and that impact that it's having on mental health and wellbeing.
23:26 Speaker 02 And so where are you kind of landing with the research, what you're seeing so far? The question of like whether music can play a similar role that meditation plays or journaling. Is that going to require a lot more research to say that?
23:37 Speaker 03 Definitely. We are at the moment validating a scale to be able to measure that. We have identified that music can cultivate self compassion, but there's so much more work. That needs to be done. I think more importantly, I want to see research that validates the psychological benefits that measure stress responses, heart rate variability, inflammation markers, to show if self compassion through music listening can create the same measurable health benefits that other self compassion practices can. But there's still a lot of big gaps to fill before we can effectively say music works just as good as these established practices such as journaling or meditation.
24:21 Speaker 02 And to be clear, there is variation in the degree to which meditation or journaling can help any one person cultivate self compassion.
24:31 Speaker 03 I love meditating. Meditating is my jam and it's something that I can really engage with, but I know that there's some people that actually find it really tricky to get into that spot and to practise meditation.
24:42 Speaker 02 It's the same with music. Sabrina's first study found 81% of people surveyed experienced self compassion through listening to music, but that still leaves a bunch of people who didn't experience self compassion.
24:55 Speaker 03 Music isn't for everyone. There's some people that don't listen to music or don't have that reaction. And it's so, it's all about providing other paths for people to use for self compassion.
25:06 Speaker 02 So clearly still very early days with this research, but Sabrina is hopeful that we might one day talk about music in the same way that we talk about meditation and journaling.
25:16 Speaker 03 It was such an important part in my life as a child and as a teenager. And I really hope that this can be something that people can use, especially kids, especially adolescents. It's such a great tool and something that we're already using.
25:34 Speaker 02 You talked about a lot of songs that you reached to at various points in your life growing up, to provide solace, to provide escape. Is there a particular song you reach to now at this point in your life?
25:45 Speaker 03 My favourite song to reach to, I actually listened to it on the way here today. It's a song by J S Undara and it's a song called Saying Goodbye. He writes it in, he writes it as someone saying goodbye to their lover, to, to this person that hasn't had the best relationship for them. But I take that song as saying goodbye to all the crap that I don't need in my life anymore.
26:12 Speaker 02 Mmm.
26:13 Speaker 03 And getting good at saying goodbye to that. And it's something that I listen to a lot because I'm still needing to say goodbye to things that I say yes to or invite into my life.
26:23 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
26:23 Speaker 03 And so something that I gravitate towards and something that's helping me at the moment.
26:27 Speaker 02 This is another song that I hadn't heard of until speaking to Sabrina. And oh, my gosh, I wish I had the rights for this one as well to play here right now because it is gorgeous. We will put a link to the song and all the other music mentioned in today's episode in our show notes. And do yourself a favor. After listening to this, go find that song. What are some of the lyrics and where is he from? I haven't heard of him.
26:51 Speaker 03 Yeah, he's a Kenyan artist. I believe he does live in the US. The lyrics are, honey, I'm just getting good at saying goodbye. And it's all about the bitterness of relationships. It's all about the tenderness of that vulnerability of letting go of something that you don't want to, but you know that it's good for you.
27:11 Speaker 02 I feel like you've given me a lot to listen to after this. Thank you, Sabrina.
27:16 Speaker 03 Thank you so much, Sana.
27:23 Speaker 02 That is Sabrina McKenzie. She's a PhD researcher in music psychology at the University of Melbourne. As I said before, you can find links to all of the songs mentioned in today's episode in our show notes. And you can also find links to the research papers we referenced in this episode in the show notes as well. And that's it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen, and sound engineer Roi Huberman. I'm Sana Qadar. Thanks for listening. And just before we go, a little sneak peek of what we've got coming up in a couple of weeks. It's our Mailbag episode, where you sent us your questions on difficult people.
28:07 Speaker 02 This is following on from our episode about difficult people that aired a couple of weeks back. Here's a little of what you can expect in the Mailbag episode. One thing that occurs to me is that this episode is going to air right before we break for the holiday period. So there is going to be a lot of people travelling to see family that they might not see all that often, lots of difficult relatives mixing. Do you have any general advice for people heading into the holiday period, which is emotionally heightened anyways? I do. Tell me.
28:39 Speaker 02 Christmas is not the time to address anything with family. Good advice, right. Do not do it. Okay. There's alcohol, there's multiple dynamics. Do not, if you can, just contain whatever it is that's going on until after. Do people generally follow that advice, do you find? Or after the Christmas break, do you have clients come back and be like, "Oh my god, this happened over at Christmas. I was not going to bring it up, but I brought it up anyways." People, people are pretty good, actually. That's coming up in about two weeks' time. Thanks for listening this week. I will catch you next time.
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