From school avoidance to food anxieties: navigating neurodiverse parenting

Long before Sarah's daughter Chloe Hayden became an award-winning actress starring in Netflix's Heartbreak High, she was a kid facing immense struggles. Chloe was sensitive to smells, lights and foods; she had no friends; she hated school. Sarah never suspected Chloe was autistic, but that’s only because her idea of what autism looked like came from the film Rain Man. Sarah is now a social worker and equine assisted therapist, working with neurodiverse families. In this episode, Sarah shares her family’s story, her advice for parents navigating school refusal and food aversion – and the shock of getting her own surprise ADHD diagnosis later in life. You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. Guest: Sarah HaydenSocial workerEquine assisted therapistAuthor, Parenting Different https://www.murdochbooks.com/browse/book/Sarah-Hayden-Parenting-Different-9781761500237 Credits: Presenter/producer: Sana QadarProducer: Rose KerrSenior producer: James BullenSound engineer: Roi HubermanSupport services: Butterfly Foundation https://butterfly.org.au/Lifeline https://www.lifeline.org.au/More information: What to do if nothing's working, Autism Australia https://www.autismawareness.com.au/navigating-autism/what-to-do-if-nothings-working-in-autism-educationPlanning Absences: A Guide for Parents of Autistic Students https://www.amaze.org.au/2025/01/planning-absences-a-guide-for-parents-of-autistic-students/Eating disorders and autism https://eatingdisorders.org.au/eating-disorders-a-z/eating-disorders-and-autism/Anorexia Nervosa and Autism Spectrum Disorder: A Systematic Review https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178121005667?via%3DihubAutism spectrum disorder and anorexia nervosa: Investigating the behavioural and neurocognitive overlap https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178124005705#:~:text=Individuals%20with%20autism%20spectrum%20disorder,predictive%20of%20set%2Dshifting%20abilityPersonal essay: "I was unseen, even to myself" https://www.sydney.edu.au/charles-perkins-centre/news-and-events/news/2025/05/15/as-many-as-half-of-people-with-anorexia-also-have-autism.html#:~:text=20%E2%80%9330%25%20of%20people%20with%20anorexia%20may%20be%20autistic&text=be%20autistic.,population%20are%20around%201%25Adolescents With Autism Spectrum Disorder and Anorexia Nervosa Comorbidity: Common Features and Treatment Possibilities With Cognitive Remediation Therapy and Oxytocin https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.686030/fullDisability advocates say NDIS changes disregard alternative therapy benefits https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-21/equine-therapy-ndis-changes-takeover-goldfields/105348100Effects of Equine Therapy on Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder: a Systematic Review https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40489-018-0130-zEquine-Assisted Therapy for Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder: a Comprehensive Literature Review https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40489-016-0090-0Equine assisted activities and therapies in children with autism spectrum disorder: A systematic review and a meta-analysis https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965229918308331Autism and Equine-Assisted Interventions: A Systematic Mapping Review https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10803-017-3219-9Effects of Equine-Assisted Activities and Therapies for Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder: Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/3/2630Effectiveness of Equine-Assisted Activities and Therapies for Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder: An Update https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/11/12/1494A Scoping Review of Equine-Assisted Therapies on the Mental Health and Well-Being of Autistic Children and Adolescents: Exploring the Possibilities https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01612840.2024.2364236#abstract

• 0:00Speaker 00

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Ever since a beef wellington was used for murder, I've been wondering, why does a mushroom have the ability to kill humans? Sure, no one wants to be eaten, but how will the message about your toxicity get out if all the witnesses are dead? And if fungi can do that, then what else can it do? Anne Jones here, investigating mushrooms. Search for What the Duck and look for mushrooms. Find it wherever you get your podcasts or on the ABC Listen app.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  And the Audience Choice Award for Best Actress goes to Chloe Hayden.

• 0:46Speaker 03

  Chloe Hayden is an award-winning actress and disability advocate, most known for her role in Netflix's recent reboot of Heartbreak High.

• 0:55Speaker 04

  I like you. You're smart and you're funny and you're really pretty. Like, you're really, really beautiful.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Her character, Quinny, is autistic and so is Chloe in real life. How close is Quinny to Chloe?

• 1:08Speaker 04

  Um, well, we look very similar.

• 1:12Speaker 03

  But long before Chloe was a star who was winning awards and going on talk shows and before she was diagnosed, Chloe was just a quirky but struggling kid with parents who loved her very much, but who weren't sure what was going on. Before your eldest daughter Chloe was diagnosed as autistic, what was your image of autism? What did you think it looked like?

• 1:37Speaker 05

  My only real experience with it at the time was Rain Man.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  This is Sarah Hayden, Chloe's mum.

• 1:45Speaker 05

  So for anyone of a certain age, they'll know the movie. I think it was Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman. That was kind of the one media representation that I personally had seen and remembered of what autism was.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  And what was the representation for anyone who hasn't seen that film? Because this is going back to 1988.

• 2:04Speaker 05

  I think it was sort of the old-fashioned, stereotypical model of autism. So. Was an older man who was a savant, had some unbelievable gifts and talents. But overall, he had an enormous amount of deficit socially. And certainly, there's people that are like that, who are autistic. But there's also many, many who are not. So I didn't realise that there was a large spectrum, and in particular, for girls that can present very, very differently.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  So when her daughter was diagnosed, to Sarah, it seemed unbelievable.

• 2:37Speaker 05

  I can't even, I just had no words. I was totally and utterly shocked. There was a huge amount of just utter devastation, not for the diagnosis, but for the fact that, you know, here I am, what I consider an intelligent, educated woman from a good educated family. My dad's a doctor, my mum was a nurse. You know, I considered myself a sensitive, intuitive parent. And I was like, I've just had this psychologist tell me that my daughter's autistic. And I'm like, all of the things, you know, from I must be the worst parent in the world, how can I have a child that's got to this age? And I don't know. And, you know, what am I going to do? And what does this mean for her?

• 3:20Speaker 03

  It's been about 15 years since that day, and things couldn't be more different for Sarah and Chloe and their family. Sarah Hayden is a social worker and mother to five kids, along with her husband. And she's written a book called Parenting Different.

• 3:35Speaker 05

  We had this child that we just thought, and still do, that she's the most incredible, amazing, clever human that we wouldn't change for the world. And yet, it just felt like it was something really awful that we'd been told. And I think with my book, it is literally the book that I wish that somebody had have given to me.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  So today, we're finding out how you can support a neurodivergent child in your life, from someone who's not just the parent of an autistic person, but also a social worker who works with many autistic children. And we'll touch on everything from schooling to food to embracing being different.

• 4:09Speaker 05

  I always say, normal is a setting on a washing machine, not a setting for a human.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  And we'll also hear more about the Hayden's many journeys of self-discovery, because this story doesn't just end at Chloe's diagnosis.

• 4:20Speaker 05

  I remember sitting there in the sessions with her, and I'm kind of going, oh, my goodness, this is like, every single thing is me.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  I'm Sana Qadar, and from ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind.

• 4:41Speaker 06

  Thank you very much.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  I have to start by saying, this is an interesting time to be talking about autism and embracing difference, because since we first spoke to Sarah, autism has been in the news in a big way.

• 4:54Speaker 06

  The meteoric rise in autism is among the most alarming public health developments.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  In a press conference in September, US President Donald Trump made a number of inaccurate claims about autism, like linking the use of Tylenol, or what we call Penadol, during pregnancy to an increased risk of autism in the child.

• 5:14Speaker 06

  So taking Tylenol is not good. All right, I'll say it. It's not good.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  He also resurfaced long discredited ideas that certain vaccines can cause autism, and all of this has prompted a lot of comment from experts trying to correct the record, as these claims are not grounded in evidence. And when Sarah first heard these comments, she laughed.

• 5:38Speaker 05

  Like, honestly, I actually, I think particularly because they've come from Trump. Like, it was laughing and like, oh my goodness, you know, this is actually absurd. But then, as a mum and as somebody who works in this community with so many vulnerable people who are already hurting so much, they really cut deep, because the message behind it really is that this is your fault, mums. And mothers in particular already carry so much guilt.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  She takes particular offence to the idea that autism is something that needs to be treated away, to be eliminated.

• 6:11Speaker 05

  It's kind of going, as long as none of us take Tylenol, then the great news is, next generation, we're not going to have any of these autistic people, which is, this whole message is pretty bloody horrendous.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  And sort of also ignoring, like, the massive contribution of autistic people in all facets of life.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  My god. You know what the funny thing is? The very people at the top of all the research fields in the world, I guarantee you're autistic, doctors and everything. And it's like, you know, I don't see my autistic child as a tragedy. She is funny, and she's smart, and she's unique, and she's brilliant. You know, it is just, it's so sad to think that there are people who will actually believe this kind of stuff.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  You heard Sarah talk about the guilt she felt when her daughter Chloe was diagnosed with autism, not as she said for the diagnosis itself, but for not realising earlier that Chloe was autistic. What you haven't heard is just how bad things had gotten for Chloe by the time she was diagnosed.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  So she had struggled for many, many years at school. I think, you know, when she was at home for that sort of first five years, she was attached at my hip and I was lucky that I didn't have to work or put her in daycare or anything like that. And so, you know, she was just able to be Chloe and we were able to make the accommodations that we did for her for the first four years of her life. She was an only child and it was fine. If she had to sleep with us in bed all night with one of us holding her tightly, we would. We sort of did everything that she needed.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  But once Chloe started school, that's when things started to fall apart.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  They weren't able to make the kind of accommodations that we were just naturally used to doing and the overwhelming sensory sensitivities of school from the, you know, the bright lights and all the people and the noises and the smelly toilets. And at first we sort of went, oh, you know, this must be an awful school and they're not very nice to kids because she cries all day, every day. And so we'd pull her out of school and then we'd try another one. And then the same thing had happened and then we'd try another one. And, you know, things were just getting worse and worse. And when I say things were getting bad, she would, you know, we would have to have teachers and a school principal meet us in the car park in the morning and they would literally pry her out of school. You know, it breaks my heart to think of it now, but I would be sitting in the car crying

• 8:22Speaker 05

  while three or four teachers would literally like unravel her fingers from the door and sort of drag her in. And she would, they'd look at me and say, oh, she'll be fine. She'll stop crying in a few minutes. And, you know, this wasn't in prep. I mean, this was even in later years of school.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  And how old?

• 8:36Speaker 05

  Oh, like right up to, you know, to grade six, she was still crying and crying. And, you know, I would then get to school at the end of the day and they would sort of look at me and go, oh, she's still crying and still upset.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Teachers were also starting to tell Sarah that Chloe didn't have any friends.

• 8:54Speaker 05

  Never ever got invited to birthday parties and every time she had a birthday party, we'd invite people and they wouldn't come. And, you know, we could just see that there was just all these struggles. And I think when you're a parent, once you've got your kid in a classroom and you sort of start to see them against other kids, you kind of start to go, oh, that's a little bit different to what my child is doing. Whereas those first few years at home, it's not that easy to have that comparison.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  As the years ticked by and Chloe entered high school, things didn't get better. In fact, they got worse.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  She was in the depths of depression and anxiety. She'd started eating disorders and was really feeling different. But we still, you know, never in a million years would I have thought, oh, my daughter's autistic. I was just like, something is going on.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Finally, after cycling through three high schools just in year seven, a teacher suggested Sarah and her husband take Chloe to see an educational psychologist. From there, Chloe received her diagnosis of autism.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  I often reflect because Chloe will kind of go, oh, mum cried. And it's not because I was sad, you know. For me, it was just, oh, my goodness, my child has struggled so deeply. You know, it wasn't an odd day or two that she struggled at school. It was seven years of hell for her in school, of crying all day, every day, and being bullied relentlessly and having no friends.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Sarah actually ended up pulling Chloe out of school altogether because of how intensely she was struggling.

• 10:20Speaker 05

  You know, for us, after a really, really bad few weeks and Chloe was going downhill really fast, where the psychologist actually just looked at me and said, you need to pull your child out and homeschool them. And I kind of went, I'm not homeschooling my child. And she goes, well, you either do that or you risk losing her. And, you know, I honestly believe, looking back, that she was right. Chloe, just, she would not have survived if she had have continued at school.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  Many of the autistic children that Sarah now works with as a social worker also struggle in school, though usually not to the extreme that Chloe did. Sarah's job is to work with those kids and their families and their schools to figure out adjustments that can help them thrive.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  If your child has a diagnosis, in Australia by law, a school has to make reasonable adjustments. And so it's talking to the school around, you know, what do you think that your child might need?

• 11:12Speaker 03

  And one of the most common problems she finds autistic kids often struggle with is navigating the daily lunch break.

• 11:20Speaker 05

  Sort of seems to be across the board that a lot of autistic kids really struggle with friends and that hour-long lunchtime every day where, you know, other kids kind of naturally just know what to do and go off and kick the footy or go and do whatever it is that they kind of naturally do. And you've got these beautiful neurodivergent kids who are kind of like, I don't know what to do now. And that's a really difficult time for them. And it can also be the time when they're more likely to get bullied or

• 11:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 05

  feel lost or alone or under scrutiny because they're just kind of wandering around. And, you know, they're a target. And so, you know, another young person I worked with who loved books and loved the libraries, I was able to contact the school and kind of go, hey, can, do you need a library monitor to come in and help, you know, sort out the books? And, you know, it'd be great if you could have this person.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  The school was into the idea and they even had a library monitor badge made for the child.

• 12:07Speaker 05

  And this child would kind of have this excuse every lunchtime of, sorry, got to go, I'm on library monitor duty, which wasn't even a thing. But it's like, find something for that child, whether it's an art group that they can set up. You know, I encourage kids to set up, what do you love? What do you love doing? And inevitably it'll be art or something like that. And I go, why don't you talk to the school about setting up an art club? And, you know, put up signs and, and then you'll get all the kids who are struggling or a little bit quirky or creative or haven't got friends. And they've got a safe space to go. And something as small as that can make all the difference between school being okay and safe to it just being horrendous.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  There's another teenager you described working with who would be fine at school Monday to Tuesday, but Wednesday would be terrible for them. And then that would flow on to Thursday and Friday. Can you tell me about that child and what you did with that child?

• 12:55Speaker 05

  It had been going on for like more than a term where this mum was like, you know, They don't want to go to school Wednesday and then it ends up that they also don't want to then go Thursday or Friday and then the weekend is stressful all weekend because they're thinking about the next Wednesday, you know, they're ruminating on this, this one day and it's basically affecting everything. And I kind of just looked at the mum and was like, what if we just say to the school that Wednesday is going to be a break day? And, you know, they can go to school Monday and Tuesday, have a break on Wednesday and maybe that's the day you do therapy or have some mum and daughter time or whatever it is. And then they can go back Thursday and Friday. And, you know, she sort of said, oh, I'm not sure whether the school will be happy with that. And look, schools are usually really happy with that because it's much easier for them to support a child to have a day off that's kind of planned.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:40Speaker 05

  So that they can come back stronger and, and able to get through the next two days rather than everybody sort of fighting about it. And, you know, this poor kid having to make up or, or probably, you know, really waking up feeling physically sick because, you know, they are sick about going to school and then it affecting the rest of the week.

• 13:57Speaker 03

  So the family decided to give it a go and have Wednesdays off every week. They scheduled therapy on that day as well as mum and daughter time, like Sarah suggested.

• 14:06Speaker 05

  Mum took her to have a Maccas date, you know, in between and it became a really special, fun, exciting day. And even school reported like, wow, Thursday and Friday, they come back and they're doing so much more and are so much better because they've had that day off. And so you're getting four really good days at school rather than maybe two kind of okay days and then three really crappy days.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  So making a school environment work for a neurodivergent child can be a game changer.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Sarah says another topic she hears a lot of parents of autistic children worry about is food. How often do the kids that you work with have some sort of aversion to food?

• 14:49Speaker 05

  I think it's very, very common with neurodivergent, particularly autistic people to have food aversions, to have sensory sensitivities around food, to have very limited, restricted food. It's certainly a big concern with parents. You know, parents get really worried that their children are eating an incredibly narrow, small amount of food. And I think one of the biggest things I sort of say is humans are incredibly adaptable. It's amazing that kids can thrive living on nothing but nuggets and chips. Well, it's not, well, it's not ideal. Um, you know, if they're eating something, it really doesn't matter what it is. Just, you know, just get them into it.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  It's thought that about 70% of autistic kids have issues with food or eating. And Sarah's daughter Chloe was one of those kids.

• 15:35Speaker 05

  So for us, we found Chloe always, looking back, had very, very strong food preferences. So a lot of, like a lot of autistic kids, it was white, you know, white food was safe. So that was, you know, potatoes and rice and nuggets and chips and just really basic bland food. But we would try and not make a big deal of it. I think with kids in particular, if you're really pushing it and making a big deal and sitting there demanding them to eat certain things, it becomes worse and worse. And food becomes the enemy and you become the enemy and everyone fights and everyone hates each other.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 05

  And it's just really difficult. Yeah, I think, you know, you just sort of keep trying without trying to put too much pressure on it. I always say that if you think your child is not getting enough nutrition in terms of calories or, you know, there's food restriction or they're losing weight, absolutely. You know, eating disorders are a really big concern and there is quite a high correlation between, in particular autistic girls and anorexia, and that's becoming more and more evident as more research goes on.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  Research on just how high that correlation is has mostly found that between 20 and 30% of people with anorexia nervosa fit the diagnostic criteria for autism, although some research has put that figure as high as 50%. That's worrying because according to Eating Disorders Victoria, the usual treatments for anorexia don't always accommodate the specific needs of autistic people. For example, treatment programs might involve group settings, which can be overwhelming. They can also involve bright and noisy inpatient settings. And all of that is worrying as well because anorexia is notorious for having the highest mortality rate of all psychiatric illnesses.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  Sarah knows firsthand how stressful it can be to have an autistic child who is struggling with anorexia because Chloe had it for many years.

• 17:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. So I think like a lot of autistic people, often it starts off with just that struggles with certain food, you know, the very narrow food restrictions and often during times of anxiety and things that can become narrower in terms of what they feel safe or feel comfortable with. And then, then they've got on top of that, the anxiety and the bullying and, and, you know, girls in particular can be awful to other girls and they were commenting on her looks or her, you know, not having friends or so she, you know, she can sort of reflect that. Part of it is probably, you know, if I'm skinny, it'll fit in and, and whatever. But it's also that there's already so many food restrictions. And so it's really complicated. And that's why it's something that you need to get on to really quickly and also try and get really specialist support with it.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  From ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  So I'm chatting with Sarah Hayden today, who is the author of Parenting Different, a book about raising neurodiverse children. She is the mother of actress Chloé Hayden from Netflix's Heartbreak High. And she's also a social worker as well as an equine assisted therapist.

• 18:34Speaker 05

  So after I did my social work degree and had worked for a few years in social work, I had started to see the power of, of horses. I've always been around horses myself. And for Chloé, since she was a very, very little girl, we noticed that, you know, she was one of those kids, I always say girls who are horse mad are literally just born horse mads. And, and in all the years that she was so miserable and depressed and anxious at school, the one time that we would see her happy and relaxed and flourish was every Saturday morning when we'd drive an hour to a horse riding farm and she'd go and ride the ponies. And, you know, I now know that that's, you know, horses are incredible for particularly autistic people or people with trauma or, you know, histories of struggling with other areas of therapy, because they are incredibly sensitive, intuitive animals

• 19:18Speaker 05

  who provide incredible feedback to people on their own emotions. You know, if you're really... Angry and storming around and stressed, you know a horse is not going to come near you. Or if you're riding on the back of one, they're going to really play up.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  There is research looking into the benefits of equine assisted therapy for children and teenagers with autism. And various studies have described improvements in areas like behaviour, communication, social skills and engagement. And until recently, equine assisted therapy was accessible through the NDIS, the National Disability Insurance Scheme. However, meta-analyses that have been conducted of the research report limited statistically significant evidence on the impact of this kind of therapy. As of October 2024, the NDIS now lists animal therapies like equine assisted therapy as alternative or complementary therapy, and it no longer funds access.

• 20:16Speaker 03

  It's an area that needs more research, but in her work, Sarah has seen how horses can help some kids open up.

• 20:24Speaker 05

  Children are much more likely, we know as parents, our kids are more likely to open up to us on a long road trip. When we're, you know, when we're doing something, they'll just casually talk. Whereas if you sit down in a room and go, right, tell me what's going on and what's, you know, they're not going to open up. And I find the same with equine therapy, you know, the kids come out, it's just they're not seeing me as a therapist. They're coming out and, you know, we catch a pony and we're brushing them and we're doing things with them. And while we're doing that, we're talking about, see how the pony's ears are back and they're, you know, they're doing this and they're doing that.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  Right, so you're not doing psychotherapy with them, you're not talking about their feelings, you're just...

• 20:53Speaker 05

  Well, we do that, so that does lead into that. So it starts off often with the ponies, you know, so they might be brushing. Some ponies hate being brushed on their stomach and will start biting or kicking. And so we're like, oh, notice how they do that. So it's encouraging children to recognise signs and feelings in somebody else that we can then start talking about. Oh, so how do you feel? Does your, do you, you know, do you like somebody touching you? Or, you know, does that, do you not like it? Because some, we know that some autistic kids love being touched and hugged tightly. Others just have a huge aversion to being, you know, the hair brushed or touched or... So it opens up conversations around, you know, around body safety, particularly with kids that have been abused or have got trauma histories. And I find naturally, especially my teenagers, that, you know, we'll be standing there

• 21:35Speaker 05

  just brushing a horse and they're kids that usually wouldn't talk to anybody. And, you know, within a few minutes, they're like, oh, did I tell you what happened at school yesterday? And then they just, you know, they're sort of focused on doing something with the horse. And so that allows them to actually start opening up and talking to you. And it's a much more informal way of opening up a conversation.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  If we come back to Sarah and her family's story, learning about her daughter Chloe's autism diagnosis was a big shock. But it turns out there were more diagnoses and more shocks to come.

• 22:12Speaker 05

  Chloe was diagnosed autistic around 12 or 13. And then it was several years later that she was diagnosed ADHD, I think maybe at around the age of 20, I think. She'd been at a conference with a psychologist who made a comment to her that she was ADHD. And she said, no, no, I'm autistic. And he said, oh, no, I think you're ADHD too. You should go and get tested. And again, a little bit like my story with her autism diagnosis, she came home and said it to me. And I was like, you're not ADHD. Like ADHD is little boys who are, you know, spinning on their head in class and hanging from the chandeliers and jumping from couch to couch. And Chloe had never been like that. And I just kind of was like, no, that's not right. And again, I think that was kind of the, you know, even eight years ago, that was kind of more of the classic, oh, my God, you're so ADHD, you

• 22:54Speaker 05

  know. And I sort of started doing a bit of research, as did she, and was looking at females with ADHD and what the characteristics are. And she was quite adamant. She was keen to go and get a diagnosis. So we sought out a professional psychiatrist who specialized in diagnosing.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Sarah went along with Chloe to these appointments, even though Chloe by this point was an adult.

• 23:13Speaker 05

  Because there was a lot of parent forms and things that they wanted me to fill out. And I remember sitting there in the sessions with her and I'm kind of going, oh, my goodness, this is like, this is, every single thing is me. Like, I didn't realize that this was, you know, diagnostic stuff. I just thought everyone was like this.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Like what? What was speaking to you?

• 23:29Speaker 05

  Just things like, you know, like your mind never stops having 58 tabs open and that you can't focus on one thing. Like, you know, if I'm reading a book, I can read the book and I can speed read a novel in like an hour or two. But at the same time, I'm also, you know, I've got a shopping list going on and I'm thinking I've got to do this. Like I had, my brain just runs on multiple systems. You're just like, just lots of things, just the forgetfulness and the, you know, the missing deadlines and the time blindness and all of these other things. And At the end of it, when she got diagnosed, I kind of said to the psychiatrist, I think I've got ADHD as well. And he was like, well, you'll have to go and get your own diagnosis. And I waited for a few years, up until only about two, two and a half years ago. So I went to a different psychiatrist who I didn't tell anything about Chloe or our history or anything.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  And I went through the process and some $3,000. And a few months later, I got an A plus on my ADHD test.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  Even though Sarah had suspected the diagnosis, when she was presented the information confirming that she did in fact have ADHD, she felt a profound sense of grief.

• 24:33Speaker 05

  Because I really did look over particularly my childhood and teenage years where I'd struggled so much at school despite being really smart. You know, friendships that I always struggled with and careers, my early years of just jumping from so many different universities and tried out so many different degrees until I finally finished a social work degree. And sort of thinking, my goodness, that just everything makes so much sense.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Both autism and ADHD are highly heritable. So perhaps it's not surprising that Sarah has a diagnosis of her own. And perhaps it's not surprising that a second daughter was also diagnosed with both autism and ADHD in her twenties, and that her husband was diagnosed with autism at the age of 50.

• 25:17Speaker 05

  It's actually becoming really common that a lot of parents are being diagnosed in their 40s and 50s on the back of their child or children being diagnosed.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  Now, one thing I wanted to ask is, you know, for a lot of people, Chloe's story might seem like amazing, but also potentially like a bit of an outlier, you know, to go from struggling as she did as a child, being selectively mute, I think at times as well, you've written about.

• 25:46Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  To, you know, now a very successful actress.

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  What do you say to people who think? Sure, that's great for your family, but that's a one in a million scenario.

• 25:55Speaker 05

  It absolutely is. And look, I'm really, really aware of that, as is Chloe. And I sort of say, you know, I think it's so important for people to realise that, yes, you know, Chloe is incredibly talented and has been incredibly successful, not in spite of her diagnosis, but you know, absolutely also because of it, because she's been so focused on it. And this has been something that she's worked so hard on and has really loved and wanted to do. But success doesn't mean becoming famous or earning lots of money or anything like that. What success is for you and your child is actually doing the things that you love doing. And most importantly, being healthy and happy mentally, that is the number one thing. So it's really hard because I think we do, we get that a lot, sort of people going, oh yeah,

• 26:37Speaker 05

  but you know, my child loves acting, but they're, you know, they're not likely to become famous like Chloe. No, they're not, because she is also, there's a lot of luck. You know, I always say, if you're a, if you're a successful, famous actress or celebrity, then it is, a lot of it is being in the right place at the right time, as well as the blood, sweat and tears. But I think it's so important for people to know that success doesn't mean that you've got a starring role on a Netflix hit series. It, it means that you are not struggling every single day trying to be somebody that you're not meant to be, that you feel like you can be, your authentic, incredible self.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  And for you as a parent of neurodivergent children and neurodivergent yourself, what does success look like for you?

• 27:19Speaker 05

  Exactly that, that everybody is, you know, mentally okay, that you're thriving in life, that you're doing the things that you want to do or working towards the things that you want to do. You know, I think it used to be that if you were diagnosed autistic or neurodivergent, it's, it's like less, it's like, oh, you're not quite whole or it's not quite right. And just that real understanding of the fact that it's, it's a different brain.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  It's not a wrong brain.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  That is Sarah Hayden, social worker, equine assisted therapist, and author of Parenting Different. Now, we mentioned a bunch of different bits of research in this episode. We're going to link to the relevant research papers in our show notes and on our website. So if you're interested in learning more about equine assisted therapy or autism and anorexia, check out those links.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  And just one other thing before we go. We are planning an upcoming episode of All in the Mind about the social media ban for under 16s that's due to kick in in December. And we want to know your thoughts, especially if you have teenagers or young children, or if you're a teacher who teaches teenagers or young children. What do you think of the ban? Do you think it'll work? How has social media impacted the children that you're in contact with? Tell us your thoughts, and especially actually if you have teenagers who you think might be willing to chat to us. We'd love to hear from them as well. So put your thoughts, or your teens' thoughts, or both your thoughts, into a voice note, a couple of minutes long, or shorter, up to you, but nothing more than five minutes for sure,

• 29:00Speaker 03

  and send that to us at [email protected]. And just put in the subject matter, Thoughts on Social Media Ban, just so we can find it easily. All right, that's it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen, and sound engineer Roi Huberman. I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time.

• 29:28Speaker 00

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