Pod Insights All In The Mind Driving me mad: why we get road rage About this episode Simon considers himself a calm, conscientious, conflict-avoidant type of person. But in the car, his personality flips — and it scares him.
It can be hard to admit, but many of us do experience road rage.
So what is it about being in the driver's seat that makes us so quick to anger? And does the type of car a person drives have anything to do with their propensity for aggression?
Today, we're talking about road rage; owning up to times we've lost our temper and finding out what we can do about it.
You can catch up on more episodes of the All in the Mind podcast with journalist and presenter Sana Qadar, exploring the psychology of topics like stress, memory, communication and relationships on the ABC Listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts.
Guests:
Dr Amanda StephensSenior Research Fellow,Monash University Accident Research Centre
SimonAll in the Mind listener and business owner
Credits:
Presenter/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Harvey O'SullivanMore information:
Estimated car cost as a predictor of driver yielding behaviors for pedestrians https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214140520300359Higher social class predicts increased unethical behavior https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3306667/#:~:text=Abstract,more%20favorable%20attitudes%20toward%20greedThe fast and the furious: Research shows that owners of high-status cars are on a collision course with traffic https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/fair-society/fast-and-furious-research-shows-owners-high-status-cars-are-collision-course-traffic
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0:38 Speaker 03 Okay, I'm going to tell you a story about an experience that, in its milder form, I'm going to say is pretty universal. Most of us have felt this. But if things have ever escalated beyond mild, and you're generally a good person, you'll know this is an experience that can also involve a fair bit of embarrassment.
0:58 Speaker 04 Hi, Sana and all in the mine team. I heard your call out for road rage incidents and I thought I would reach out.
1:08 Speaker 03 This is Simon, and yes, I'm talking about road rage, but not when you're the victim, but when you're the rager.
1:16 Speaker 04 I run a small food business in regional Victoria. A big part of my work is delivering, so I'm in the delivery van all the time.
1:26 Speaker 03 Simon comes across as a pretty mild-mannered, even keeled kind of guy. And he doesn't mind delivery driving, until he hits the city.
1:35 Speaker 04 And I've noticed particularly when I'm delivering in Melbourne, or actually only when I'm delivering in Melbourne, my reaction to road rage just is not reasonable. I find myself taking everything incredibly personally.
1:51 Speaker 03 Like when someone cuts him off?
1:53 Speaker 04 Clearly they mean to insult me personally, which makes no sense, but it's just what seems to go through your mind.
2:01 Speaker 03 But what really gets Simon steaming is loading zones.
2:05 Speaker 04 As a delivery driver, I basically need loading zones to do my job. But the reaction I get immediately when I see a non-delivery person parked in a loading zone is just irrational. It's never gotten to the physical stage, but my mind just boils for some reason, and I don't know why. It's regularly caused me to be far more verbally aggressive than I ever would be normally.
2:36 Speaker 03 This is totally out of character for him.
2:39 Speaker 04 After those interactions happen, I feel deeply affected by it, knowing that I'm clearly the one in the wrong here. I get shaky and embarrassed, but also just like my mind wasn't me for a time.
3:03 Speaker 03 As much as we might hate to admit it, many of us would be guilty of doing something similar at some point or another. I know I definitely am, and I feel deeply stupid and embarrassed about my behaviour on a couple of occasions. And so the question is, why is it that even people who are generally calm and courteous in everyday life see red behind the wheel?
3:27 Speaker 05 We've done a fair bit of work with people who don't like that part of themselves and do find that they get quite angry. It can be really common.
3:36 Speaker 03 What does something called the hostile attribution bias have to do with it? And what can you do to stop yourself from spinning out of control?
3:44 Speaker 05 Aggressive incidents aren't siloed. What happens on the road is going to influence what you do after you get out of the car. So it has a ripple effect.
3:54 Speaker 03 So today, getting a grip on road rage.
4:00 Speaker 03 I'm Sana Qadar from ABC Radio National. This is All in the Mind.
4:15 Speaker 03 So it's pretty clear that Simon is self-aware when it comes to his road rage. He knows it's not helpful to himself or to others. This is where he's at now.
4:25 Speaker 04 The last few weeks, I've been trying to, when I'm driving into Melbourne, actively tell myself that... Most people on the road are not trying to be assholes. That is often proved wrong, but I even try and then tell myself that even if they're proving me wrong, they're probably just having as bad a day as I'm about to have. So it seems to help. Um, and I literally have it written on my steering wheel. But yeah, it is really concerning how uh someone who really avoids confrontation in day to day life, but when it comes to loading zones, my mind just explodes.
5:12 Speaker 03 So yeah, I want to ask, what, what do you notice in a story? What does it tell us about the psychology of road rage?
5:19 Speaker 05 That's, that's a really great story to share. And I must admit, when you first said you're going to show a story, I thought it was going to be someone who'd received um road rage, which is what we tend to hear a lot about.
5:30 Speaker 03 This is Amanda Stephens.
5:32 Speaker 05 My background is in psychology, so I'm particularly interested in how emotions influence what we do and what we think.
5:39 Speaker 03 She's a senior research fellow with the Accident Research Centre at Monash University in Melbourne.
5:45 Speaker 05 We've done a fair bit of work with people who, who don't like that part of themselves and do find that they get quite angry. It can be really common. So if we think about what causes our anger, it's generally when we have a goal and something gets in the way of that. And we get particularly angry if we see that what's getting in the way is avoidable. So if you've got someone parking in your loading bay, they're actively getting in the way of you achieving your goal.
6:13 Speaker 03 And then with Simon in this case, you know, I also wondered whether the people being in the loading zones is tripping some sort of really primal wire in his brain because what they're doing in a way is threatening his livelihood. If he can't park in the loading zone, he can't make deliveries, he can't run his business, he can't make money. And so that, I thought, I wondered if that was part of what was playing out for him and what was making him so angry in these cases.
6:37 Speaker 05 Yes, absolutely. And I think you've touched upon a really interesting point as well. This often doesn't happen in silo. So whatever else is going on in his day, whether that's tight scheduling or simply being in Melbourne traffic, all of this will come together to create that frustration in that moment. So often it isn't one thing, whatever's going on in our life or more broadly, that will travel with us in the car and that will determine how we respond to different situations.
7:05 Speaker 03 He also talks about, you know, particularly getting worked up in Melbourne. Do cities lend themselves more to road rage? And does it, if so, does it have to do with like the anonymity of cities?
7:16 Speaker 05 It's interesting because wherever I go, people always say, oh, it's worse, it's worse in our city or it's worse in our country. So I think it's prevalent everywhere. But we do have different driving etiquettes in cities, which can be hard to understand if we're not familiar with the city as well.
7:38 Speaker 03 The other thing I did wonder is he describes himself as confrontation averse. But this kind of facet of his personality totally changes in the car. Is that typical? Like, what is it about being in a car that makes, you know, otherwise in mild mannered people get so angry?
7:57 Speaker 05 I think, I think there's a couple of things and one is the depersonalisation. So when we're in the car, we tend to see the other vehicles rather than the people within them. But I think coupled with that, we have different social norms on the road than we would outside of the road. So for example, if you're in a grocery line and someone cuts in front of you, you're probably not likely to tut at them or wave your hand at them or. And I've said this to people before and some people have said, no, I would.
8:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, I'm like, I would probably say something. I'd be like, excuse me. Politely, but strongly.
8:37 Speaker 05 But many of us, more shy people, might, might just do it internally.
8:41 Speaker 03 Right.
8:41 Speaker 05 But on the road, doing that is more acceptable. Now, I'm not saying that's correct, but we do have a culture where we see a lot of aggressive driving. And in fact, what we've found is when we ask people if they are becoming more aggressive over time, the people who say they are, do so because they feel that the roads are becoming more aggressive. So it fits in with that idea that if we feel it's culturally acceptable, then we're more likely to do it.
9:09 Speaker 03 So it feels like a self-reinforcing circle then, like you do it because you think it's acceptable, the more you do it, the more acceptable it becomes, and so on you go.
9:18 Speaker 05 Absolutely, yeah.
9:19 Speaker 03 The thing is, anger is also a very normal response to threat, and driving is dangerous. Someone's careless swerve could injure or kill you. So a certain amount of anger is probably inevitable on the roads, but the trick is to manage how that anger is expressed. You don't want your fight or flight response to lead to an actual fight. And I also wondered on the, um, the fact that, you know, it's depersonalized when you're in a car, it's like you're almost dehumanizing other people. And I always had this weird idea that like, if, if our cars had a giant screen on top that were projecting our faces in real time, there would be less road rage because you could see the facial expressions of the person, you might see the regret flash across their
10:02 Speaker 03 face for doing a dangerous cutoff or whatever, you know, like, but it would humanize the person in the car.
10:08 Speaker 05 Absolutely, and I think that's another problem that we have at the moment. Often we can't see the driver, so we don't know their intent.
10:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, windows are increasingly more tinted.
10:18 Speaker 05 Exactly. And we have, um, what we call in psychology, this hostile attribution bias, which means that when we're already frustrated or stressed, we tend to blame people a little bit more for situations, and we tend to think that they're, they're being more provocative towards us than they, they actually are. So we're almost looking for the, them to be, them to be the-
10:44 Speaker 05 The person who's trying to antagonise you. So how we feel when we get in the car can really influence those decisions that we make. If we're feeling angry and we're feeling stressed or we have a big workload or we're driving in a different city, we can almost be predisposed to then see someone as, "Oh, you deliberately cut me off" or "You're deliberately parking in the spot I need to." So we have that instinctual response.
11:10 Speaker 03 This seems to explain some of what's going on for Simon when he's driving around Melbourne and doing his deliveries and getting increasingly worked up.
11:18 Speaker 04 I find myself taking everything incredibly personally. Like when a person cuts me off, clearly they mean to insult me personally, which makes no sense.
11:29 Speaker 03 And it helps partly explain an experience I had with road rage as well.
11:36 Speaker 03 So I wanted to pick up on that because I have an experience of road rage that's very much related to this. So I remember, I don't, I mean, I might get annoyed in the car when things happen, but I don't do what I did on this particular day. And this particular day was a very stressful day. I think by the time this incident happened, it was like the fifth stressful thing in the morning. My toddler had tantrummed, it was a struggle getting out the door. That entire week had been kind of miserable. And then I was just about to pull out of my parking spot with my child in the back, who probably was still screaming at that point. And a woman just sped down the road and completely cut me off as I was mid-turning onto the road. Like it was quite aggressive. So it was just the last thing on a pile of things.
12:17 Speaker 03 And I, I've never done this before, but I like revved and went after her for like maybe a couple of minutes. I didn't go for long because she turned off and then I was like, "This is insane. I'm behaving so stupidly." But I, yeah, I like chased her down the street in a way I've never done before. And I don't know what the heck I was planning to do. Like I'm never going to get out of the car. I wasn't gonna cut her off. Like I don't know what my plan was, but I just kind of lost control in that moment of my mind and my behaviour.
12:45 Speaker 05 That's a really common story that I've heard. And I think what's really important about that is that most people who who'll put their hand up and say, yes, you know, I have had a little bit of road rage. I've been a bit aggressive. It doesn't mean they do it every single time they drive, which is exactly what you're saying.
13:02 Speaker 03 Yeah.
13:03 Speaker 05 But it's a combination of events that meant that on that one occasion, you had that reaction. And I think what's really neat about thinking about that is comparing all the times when you haven't. And so you've already been able to unpack it and say, look, you know, there was a buildup of stress and it led to that one reaction. So recognizing those situations is the first step in then going, okay, so next time that happens, what can I do? Or getting in the car and just doing a quick self check. Like, how am I feeling? Is this going to influence how I'm driving? Can be a really powerful tool just to recognize, oh, I might be a little bit more prone to to a reaction.
13:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, I feel quite ashamed about how I reacted. And I don't even know if she necessarily noticed me or cared because I'm in this beat up 2007 Nissan Tida, so it's a really shitty car. She had this very shiny, expensive looking, I think BMW or Mercedes. So like, I do think an element of what threw me over the edge was being like, oh, this person with all this money thinks they own the road. You know, that felt like it was playing into it. I don't know if those class kind of things play out, but I think there is research to suggest that people in bigger, fancier cars act more aggressively and mean on the road.
14:19 Speaker 05 Well, I think as well, there's also a general idea that we we share the road, but we don't work collaboratively on it. So it's quite a competitive space as well.
14:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah, totally.
14:36 Speaker 03 I double checked after my chat with Amanda and there is indeed research on the kinds of cars that are more likely to drive aggressively. That work was published in 2020 by researchers at the University of Nevada. And what they did was observe 461 cars in Las Vegas to see Whether they'd yield to a pedestrian at a crosswalk. Of the 461 cars, only 129 stopped. That's about a quarter. And the drivers of the more expensive cars were the least likely to yield. In fact, the likelihood that they would slow down decreased by 3% for every extra $1,000 that their car was worth. And this ties into other research on the topic.
15:21 Speaker 03 There was a paper published by researchers at the University of Helsinki in 2019 that looked at the personality traits of drivers of high-status cars. So cars like Mercedes, or BMWs, or Audis. This study didn't measure driving behavior directly. It inferred behavioral tendencies based on personality traits. And it found that self-centered men, who were argumentative, disagreeable, and un-empathetic, were much more likely to own high-status cars.
15:52 Speaker 03 But complicating the picture, that study also found that people with conscientious personality traits were also more drawn to high-status cars. The authors speculated that this might be the case because conscientious people are drawn to the quality of these cars, while the more disagreeable types are drawn to the status. But we don't really know. And overall, it is a bit of a mixed bag in terms of the research out there on the link between expensive cars and road behavior. It's not a clear-cut thing. So if you're listening to this and thinking, "Hang on, I drive a pretty nice car and I don't think I behave like a jerk." Don't worry, the evidence is inconclusive.
16:33 Speaker 03 But if you want to find out more, we will link to those papers in our show notes.
16:41 Speaker 03 Now, when we talk about road rage, there is a whole constellation of behaviors we could be referring to. Amanda says there is a hierarchy.
16:51 Speaker 05 We tend to separate it by thinking about like road rage or extreme road rage is that point when someone gets out of the car and they want to confront another driver. And then we talk about more aggressive driving as when you use your vehicle to express your anger, so you follow another car or you tailgate. And then there's the more minor aggression, such as you're swearing or you're gesticulating to the other driver or honking the horn.
17:18 Speaker 03 About 80% of us will engage in those milder forms at some point or another, people like myself or Simon. But in stories of road rage that hit the news, usually things have taken a violent turn.
17:37 Speaker 03 Those are extreme cases, but it begs the question, how often does road rage turn violent?
17:43 Speaker 05 So what we know when we ask people, survey research, is it's about 4% of people will say at some point, it's gotten to the point where they've gotten out of the car.
17:55 Speaker 03 Wow.
17:55 Speaker 05 And they've tried to engage. But that doesn't mean that those 4% of people do that every single time they drive. As I said, it's often very rare and it's a combination of circumstances that just lead to that, that reaction on the day.
18:09 Speaker 03 And are there certain personality types that are more prone to doing that kind of thing? Like I imagine people with antisocial aspects to their personality would be more likely too.
18:18 Speaker 05 Yeah, absolutely. So particularly if we're talking about those more extreme group of people, there'd often be a lot of other situations going on that may also be related to personality and how they're feeling at the time too.
18:32 Speaker 03 A bit more on demographics, it might not surprise you to learn that while research suggests that female drivers experience anger just as much as male drivers, they are far less likely to act on that anger. Aggressive driving behaviours are a whole lot more common in younger male drivers. And how much does road rage influence the likelihood of crashing?
18:53 Speaker 05 So we borrow from international data for this, but it's a significant contributor to crash. From the US shows us that about forty six percent of fatal crashes have a behaviour that can be related to aggressive driving. So it's a huge contributor. And aggressive driving crashes are also more likely to be serious crashes.
19:17 Speaker 03 Right. And I believe you can talk about tailgating as well. Why do people tailgate? Why do they do this behaviour?
19:23 Speaker 05 Well, there's a couple of reasons why people tailgate. It can be often unintentional. Some people don't mean to follow too closely at times, but most commonly what we're probably talking about.
19:35 Speaker 03 That feels very generous. I feel like when people are tailgating, they know what they're doing and they're being jerks about it.
19:42 Speaker 05 In those instances, it's often, again, related to our road etiquette. So often you'll find when people talk about situations where they've tailgated, it's related to someone driving in a lane and doing a speed that they don't, the the tailgater doesn't feel is appropriate for that lane. So it comes back down to those those road etiquettes. Some of the psychology behind anger is really interesting as well, because it kind of, anger kind of prepares us for a fight. So often anger can lead to us overestimating the amount of control we have in a situation. And I think this this plays out a lot in tailgating. So people will drive quite close because they feel that's a safe, safe distance that
20:26 Speaker 05 will achieve what they want.
20:28 Speaker 03 That's interesting, because I have often wondered when people are tailgating, that if if anything happens and the car in front has to slam on the brakes, the car behind is screwed. Like, what what do they think is going to happen? Why are they so confident in this behaviour?
20:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when we're angry, we can end up taking more risks because we we overinflate our ability to control the situation. And we also underestimate the the risk in the situation. So it's not that people are probably thinking this is high risk, but I can do it. They probably actually don't see that the risk has changed so much.
21:02 Speaker 03 Has road rage always existed since cars became a thing? Like, or is this a newer phenomenon? Do you know?
21:08 Speaker 05 Oh, I, I remember reading papers that were published in the late 1980s about road rage, but I definitely think we're talking about it more. And I have a feeling that's because we're getting more footage, we're getting more dash cam footage, people are sharing the footage. There's a general sense it's increasing, but we're definitely talking more about it, which I think is fantastic, because the more we talk about it, the more we can work together to try to reduce it.
21:40 Speaker 03 You are listening to All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar.
21:48 Speaker 03 So, road rage is common, violence less so, thankfully. But if you're someone who is prone to getting a bit raggy in the car and you'd like to dial down your raginess, Amanda Stephens from the Accident Research Centre at Monash University has a few strategies you can try.
22:08 Speaker 05 Look, I think first of all, having a think about what are the situations that get me really angry on the road and are these consistent? Or thinking back to times, so Simon's great because Simon has identified his specific circumstance that can trigger his anger and his aggressive response. So I'd sort of say the first step is really having a think about those times when you've gotten really angry or aggressive on the road and what was happening. And not just what was happening on the road, but was something else happening more broadly?
22:40 Speaker 03 Like when I was having that very stressful day in a very stressful week and the one last thing happened and it tripped me out.
22:46 Speaker 05 Yes, absolutely. So thinking about that combination. So first of all, really being aware of what your specific set of triggers might be for that, because most people won't, won't be aggressive every time they get in the car. And once you've sort of thought about that, you can work backwards and think, okay, is there something I can do before I get in the car that might help?
23:07 Speaker 03 One simple example of this is giving yourself more time to get to where you're going, so that if you're delayed, you don't start stressing out and possibly getting a bit aggressive.
23:18 Speaker 05 Going to have some calming music in the car because I know that calms me down.
23:22 Speaker 03 Amanda says deploying the five by five by five principle can also help.
23:28 Speaker 05 So asking themselves, is this going to matter in five minutes or in five hours or in five days?
23:33 Speaker 03 Right.
23:33 Speaker 05 And if it's not going to matter, don't worry about it now. Um. So it's finding what could work for you in terms of refocusing your mind. So some people might want to focus on the economy of driving. So if I start to drive aggressively, I might be burning more fuel. Some people might be focused, well, I don't want to get a fine if I'm speeding because I need my licence for work. So it can be finding that mental shift to try to to sort of step away from the anger. But it's very personal. And the last thing I'd want to say to someone who, you know, is dealing with a lot in their life is going, just breathe when you get in the car. Right. So is that's going to work?
24:15 Speaker 05 I I had a colleague who said she she wanted to try singing because that might calm her down.
24:21 Speaker 03 Okay.
24:21 Speaker 05 But she said she was so bad at singing that she ended up getting angrier.
24:28 Speaker 03 So that didn't work.
24:29 Speaker 05 So the strategies really have to be practical and work for each person. And it's really, it can be a trial and error and finding out what works.
24:38 Speaker 03 I do really like the five, five, five idea because if I think back to my story that I shared. Yes, I had all those stressors, but yeah, if I had thought in that moment, like this literally will not matter in five minutes. Like, sure, she cut you off. Who cares? Life goes on. You are unsafe. It's fine. Something like that is a real sort of shortcut to like stop your brain from going in the pattern it's going.
25:01 Speaker 05 Yeah, absolutely. And I know, I know for me, when I find myself getting wound up, I think about my my colleagues' poor singing. And the comedy of that, it just pulls me out of my anger.
25:15 Speaker 03 Can I tell you one thing that's really worked for me? My my husband is a notorious honker. We have, we have a, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. There was one time, if people drive slow on the road, he gets, he gets pretty honky about it. And he started doing this to a car and then we pulled up next to them at the lights, which is, of course, that's what's going to happen sometimes. And it ended up being a car full of really sweet, older women. Who rolled down their window and said, is everything all right? Like they were quite concerned. They're like, oh no, have we done something? And he felt, he's actually such a sweet, lovely guy. He was so mortified that that's the story that we tell ourselves forevermore. Whenever he wants to honk, I'm like, it could be a car full of lovely older women. Do not make them upset.
25:56 Speaker 05 And that's beautiful because that's personalizing those, that vehicle again. I spoke with one participant who said they tailgated at some point and then they realised the person they were tailgating was their boss. So you never, you never know who is in that car.
26:14 Speaker 03 That is incredible. Do you know if their boss realised it was their employee behind them?
26:19 Speaker 05 I didn't ask.
26:29 Speaker 03 Does anyone not get road rage? Because I feel like even the most mild mannered people I know in my life, you know, friends are still prone to it. They have told me stories, so it feels like it's universal. But are there some personalities or people who don't feel road rage?
26:45 Speaker 05 Yeah, and I think that's a fantastic question because it gets us focusing on the, on the people who manage to drive quite calmly. So we find that when we ask people how often they get aggressive, and we can talk about road rage in different ways, as I said, so the very extreme road rage, that sort of getting out of the car, very, very small percentage of people would do that.
27:08 Speaker 03 Right.
27:09 Speaker 05 But the more sort of grumbling or swearing at someone or honking the horn, there's about 20% of people who say they never do that. So it's about 80% of the rest of us will at some point express our anger in that way.
27:26 Speaker 03 Who are these 20% of, you know, amazingly emotionally stable people who don't do that?
27:32 Speaker 05 But we find they're mainly older drivers who, who tend to, yes, remain a little bit more calm on the road.
27:38 Speaker 03 What's going on for older drivers? That means they're less prone to engaging in these road ragey behaviours.
27:44 Speaker 05 There's, there's a whole range of reasons why this might be. We know that how often you're on the road is related to how frequently you might be aggressive.
27:55 Speaker 03 Right.
27:55 Speaker 05 Older drivers, they're not on the road as much. And also, they might be more driving for leisure. So we know if we're driving for work, or we're driving to work, we tend to get a little bit more angry or aggressive.
28:08 Speaker 03 Because we're already stressed about what we have to get done that day?
28:10 Speaker 05 Exactly. There's more people on the road, we're often under time pressure. So they could be all reasons why we find that the older cohort of drivers just tend not to, to get angry or aggressive on the road.
28:26 Speaker 03 So to summarise Amanda's advice, try to be a bit more like this 20% of drivers, not the 80% who do get a bit road ragey. Act older than you are, take your time, personalise the people and the cars around you. And you'll get to where you're going, minus a whole heap of swearing and middle fingers. And if all else fails, remember the five by five by five.
28:50 Speaker 05 Driving is just one part of your day. So don't let it ruin the rest of your day. Do, do what you can to get yourself home safely.
29:04 Speaker 03 That is Amanda Stephens, Senior Research Fellow with the Accident Research Centre at Monash University. And a quick update on Simon. Since we first heard from him, months and months ago now, he has managed to get a better hold on his road rage. The note to himself on his steering wheel has helped.
29:23 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's just a little note that says, "It's not about you." I've had to replace it once or twice.
29:30 Speaker 03 But the primary reason he's not so ragey anymore is, he's now hired a courier service to do most of his Melbourne deliveries for him.
29:38 Speaker 04 It's not a practical solution for everyone, but it has actually been really good for a lot of reasons. But it means I get to pick and choose the deliveries that I do.
29:49 Speaker 03 Unsurprisingly, he's mostly choosing not to drive to Melbourne. That is it for All in the Mind this week. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen, and sound engineer Harvey O'Sullivan. I'm Sana Qadar. Thanks so much for listening. If you're in the car, drive safe. I will catch you next week.
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