Tantrums, sleep training and anxiety: Dr Billy Garvey answers your parenting questions

How can I help my child with anxiety? What's the deal with sleep training? Are we supposed to ignore tantrums? This week, we've invited developmental paediatrician Dr Billy Garvey back on All in the Mind for a mailbag episode. We'll unpack your parenting dilemmas which cover questions about kids of all ages, from the littlest of newborns right through to teenagers. So whether you're a parent, aunt, uncle, grandparent, friend or someone just curious about how to support young people in your life, Billy has advice for navigating challenging moments. And please note, one of the questions is a bit heavy, touching on the topic of suicidality. Please take care while listening. Guest: Dr Billy GarveyDevelopmental paediatricianAuthor, Ten things I wish you knew about your child's mental health https://www.penguin.com.au/books/ten-things-i-wish-you-knew-about-your-childs-mental-health-9781761345838Podcast co-host, Pop Culture Parenting https://www.guidinggrowingminds.com/popcultureparentingFounder, Guiding Growing Minds https://www.guidinggrowingminds.com/ Credits: Present/producer: Sana QadarSenior producer: James BullenProducer: Rose KerrSound engineer: Antonia GauciMore information: 'Bad behaviour' or just misunderstood? What to know about kids' mental health https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/allinthemind/bad-behaviour-misunderstood-kids-mental-health/104886338Support resources: Lifeline https://www.lifeline.org.au/13 11 14 13YARN https://www.13yarn.org.au/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=16781216287&gbraid=0AAAAADQo_xpy0DazqBdfIP98nG_aBBHlG&gclid=CjwKCAjwhLPOBhBiEiwA8_wJHOyGqcRD5fMYSgXN7I-m36sBDhI-TMeA7jz58b_a0ZEuc4t3IfQgERoCNKEQAvD_BwE 13 92 76 Beyond Blue https://www.beyondblue.org.au/?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23478719000&gbraid=0AAAAADuibRY2rbx_OqLdGB6lh_FlTaimt&gclid=CjwKCAjwhLPOBhBiEiwA8_wJHOBmsUiVZYQ7yboc6_mrG6z3DhMyPMuIqtS-woaU-zthU3mRlxQOZRoCVmcQAvD_BwE

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• 0:41Speaker 01

  The thing you don't realise until you become a parent is that when you become a parent, everyone has advice and an opinion. And a lot of it feels questionable or not exactly grounded in evidence. And often you're just left with more questions. Should you really ignore tantrums in order to starve them of attention? Will sleep training mess up your baby's attachment for life? How do you help an anxious kid? And what do you do if a young child, when they are extremely distressed, talks about killing themselves? These are just some of the questions you sent us for this mailbag episode of All in the Mind

• 1:22Speaker 01

  with Dr Billy Garvey, a developmental paediatrician who first came on All in the Mind in 2025 for an episode called Bad Behaviour or Just Misunderstood: What to Know About Kids' Mental Health.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  A lot of manifestations in the younger years of anxiety is agitation, anger, aggression, outbursts.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Now, that episode was one of the most shared on Apple Podcasts in 2025. And so, given the popularity of that episode, we thought it might be a good idea to bring Dr Billy Garvey back on All in the Mind and let you ask him some questions. So, this is that episode. And a heads up, we do have that rather heavy question about young children and talk of death in the middle of this episode, so just take care while listening. I'm Sana Qadar. From ABC Radio National, this is All in the Mind.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  I will. Okay. All right. Welcome back, Dr Billy Garvey.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Thanks, Anna. It's great to be back.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  So we've had quite a few people write in questions. Are you ready for some?

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Amazing. Yeah, definitely. That's wonderful.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  We've had questions about babies, toddlers, teenagers, you know, like the whole way through and then on everything from sleep training to behavioural issues, anxiety. So let's start with the littlest, little ones. Emily asks, "I'd like to know what the literature indicates about cry it out or sleep training for infants and how that affects their sleep as older children or into adulthood?" Very succinct question, but a very emotional question for new parents.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Sleep training, whether to do it or not. But what does the literature say about how effective it is?

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Definitely. We'll talk about the literature, then we'll talk about the real world, and then we'll talk about my personal experience with it. So I work in a big, one of the biggest tertiary paediatric hospitals in the world, and we have an unsettled babies clinic. So we see babies under six months that are having a tough time. And we think about the literature and the evidence, but have to apply it into the real world with those kids. The literature around this is really interesting. It shows there is some research that shows that, you know, babies crying doesn't really impact them and it doesn't have this long-term result. And maybe they're learning self-soothing and regulation.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Right. You're not going to mess them up for life by letting them cry.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  No, and especially not for short periods of time infrequently. That's the most important bit. Sometimes when I speak to this, my amazing colleagues in child protection will come out and say, "Some mums just really need to walk away from a crying baby." And it's really important that just putting babies down, even if they're crying, is not harming them, especially if it's how you keep yourself sane. So postnatal depression, 20 to 30% of new parents, really common. And it can really impact that attachment. Because what we care about is not, does the baby sleep? We care about healthy attachment. And that's, foundations of that are laid in those first few months and years, but it never sets. So one of the key things about attachment is it changes. It's not set in the first three years or first thousand days like some people think. Secure attachment is really just I'm loved and I deserve that love.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  And you learn that through responsive caregiving early on. So the baby cries, the baby learns that that signal gets support and then they come. Sometimes babies stop crying because no one comes. We don't want babies to learn that. So it's a really good opportunity to think, we don't use controlled crying in clinic. We don't use like the hardcore sleep training, just cry it out, time it, those things. What we use is learning what the preferences are for connection and soothing for each individual baby. And appropriately giving that a developmental age, understanding that six to nine months is a window where they kind of struggle to understand that just because mum's not in the room, mum still exists.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  So distress, fear, anger, all that stuff is stuff we should go towards.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Low level grizzling, low level frustration, you can give them a chance to work it out. Now, I think that with mine, if I'm, you know, full disclosure, we have a seven month old at the moment that spends most nights in our bed. So I also have the challenge of a four year old and a two year old that wake up through the night. Like nightmares and screaming, so I'm rolling off of that.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  How are you functioning right now?

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's actually their mum is mainly the amazing one. She works longer hours than I do and she does a lot of the self-soothing. So because what we're helping ID, our seven month old, learn is that calming strategy. Now, I fell for the trap with my oldest, with a vet, where we were like, no, she needs to be out of the bed, out of the room. She was out of the room after one night. And I look back and I worry about that. Now, that's a personal worry where I'm like, maybe I've done something wrong. But professionally, I know that by helping her regulate her emotions and self-soothe and improving her sleep hygiene and all that stuff now, there's no permanent damage from what happened back then. It's just that it didn't sit with me personally that well. And I was an idiot because I'd worked in that clinic for years and years and years before I had my first child. But I still fell for the like, social pressure to be like,

• 6:20Speaker 02

  the baby needs to learn to sleep on its own. It'll learn that just by crying and figuring it out.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  When most of the world co-sleeps.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a very western thing, yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's, I think it's this weird thing where we're like, the bond we have with our kids is so short-lived in terms of that intimacy and affection. And I think it's this kind of real amazing window. So anyone out there that's Doing that or has done that, you haven't harmed them. Anyone who needs to put down a crying baby and walk away, that is completely acceptable and doesn't do damage. And anyone that is co-sleeping and feeling social pressure to get kids out, hopefully be a bit kinder to yourself and gentler and understand that there's a really beautiful bonding thing happening too.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  So is it generally all okay, whatever you decide to do? Or is there like a long-term impact of either choice, whether having them in the room or letting them cry it out and self-soothe?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Well, the extreme, if we go really extreme is neglect. And we know a lot of the research shows that babies that were just given food and warmth and change have the highest rates of mental illness. That was like let out of Eastern Europe orphanages. The real risk of not responding to a baby over, you know, thousands of times and ignoring them and letting them cry it out is that they're insecure in their attachment. And so that anxiety, you know, separation anxiety, stranger danger, all those things happen in the early years. And the decision we make clinically about whether we worry about it or not is, is it impacting these kids' daily functioning?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  So if we distill the advice down for Emily, is it that avoid sleep training? Or is it sleep training's okay if you're otherwise responsive? Like what would you, what's your pithy one sentence kind of?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Totally. I, I would say that avoid anything that says, I'm going to quickly fix what's going on with your baby. And think about what are my instincts and how do I look at this bub and try and figure out what they're experiencing and what they need? And help, help them learn to soothe by soothing them.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Okay. Are you anti-sleep training?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  I'm not anti it. One thing I am anti is like people that put out expensive programs and say, buy this package. And it'll be a video of me teaching you how to settle your baby. And they actually have no sleep training at all. I'm definitely anti that. Without being more specific and getting myself in trouble.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Fine, fair enough. No, I remember a lot of that stuff when I was a new parent and it made me so anxious. And the idea of following a protocol and listening to them cry, I just couldn't do it. I just opted out of the whole thing. I was like, no, I will just give away my sleep for the rest of my life and deal with it.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. But you've also got to look after yourself. Like the hardest thing for me in clinic is convincing parents, often mums, to be like, hey, you need sleep. You need to walk away from bub. You need someone else to step in and look after this bub through the night so that you can get a proper night's sleep.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Okay, the next couple of questions are about tantrums. So Kate asks, I'm a mum of a 14 month old who is just starting to have tantrums and we likely have years of meltdowns ahead of us. I wanted to get some advice on whether ignoring unwanted behaviours is really the right approach. I've heard you shouldn't give attention to tantrums because that will just feed those behaviours, but I wonder if ignoring it is effective and kind. I'd hate for people to ignore me when I was sad, but I also don't want to accidentally encourage more tantrums by showing my daughter that they can work.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  So back to the attention question, what you do.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  So to start off, strengths based answer, that kid is ahead in their development.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  So yeah, that's a little bit early for tantrums.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Because yeah, tantrums happen because kids get the capacity to exert their influence on their environment through, they can speak, they can walk, they can throw stuff, they can pull stuff, and they have an awareness of the influence that has. So that's why they start kicking off. It's usually about 18 months.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  So that's probably quite a bright kid who will be ahead, like in their language or their fine motor development or something like that, that they've kicked off early. So that's good news. Possibly a kid with a sensitive temperament as well. So attachment changes, temperament never does. Temperament is dictated genetically before you're born. 20 to 30% of us have a sensitive temperament, big feelings to stuff that happens. I'm like that, I'll always be like that. And yeah, this person is rightfully questioning this advice around ignoring that because it's wrong.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  I 100% believe that ignoring behaviour is wrong. That comes out of like, originally the 1930s actually, what's called operant conditioning and Skinner popularised it. You know how the guy, the Simpsons principle, like hopeless but strict Skinner? That's based on a American psychologist who built this theory around like, you reinforce what you want kids to do and you just ignore or have negative consequences for the things you want to stop.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Right. I feel like that's the standard advice that I like, feel like I've taken in.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  It's not great advice though.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Okay, interesting.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  So if you were doing, if you were upset out in the corridor and you were being frustrated, annoying and swearing and acting out, kicking the wall, how would you feel if I just ignored you?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I mean, that sounds like a very embarrassing scenario. I'd probably prefer for you to ignore.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Are you gonna stop doing it though? Are you gonna go, oh, everyone's ignoring me, I'll stop doing it?

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but maybe not.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, because there's a reason you're doing it.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  There's a reason you're upset, that you're distressed, whatever it is. Even if it's just, I want to be annoying. I want the lollipop. My brother's annoying me and he took the toy.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  That's, that's not about saying, break the wall, like kick, you know, throw the glass, whatever. It's about what's the experience that you're having? And how do I understand that need? And then walk you through that experience. Now, if you're dysregulated, I co-regulate you first. And then we think about what's the consequence?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  What does co-regulating look like for people who might not?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  So co-regulating sounds like this like pseudoscience, but we know through functional MRI that right now there'll be a level of synchronization between you and me. Like, we're going back and forward, but we're calm together.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Now, if I become distressed and get really upset and like start stuffing things up, knocking the microphone over, you'll start to as well.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Because you'll pick up that distress that I'm experiencing.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Emotions are contagious.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then if I knock the mic over and you're like, hey, Billy, it's cool. You're doing really well. You know, I'm here to support you. Then I'll come back to calm and that's co-regulation. And you will learn how to self-regulate yourself in the corridor when you're distressed because someone helped you learn through co-regulation. Kids aren't born with it. You don't hit a certain age with anything and suddenly you've got the skills to do something.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  You have to learn it. Like, you don't become eight and you can ride a bike.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  So the kid who's 14 months old, you have really low expectations around what their emotional regulation capacity is. And you think about what's the experience that you're having? And then you help them learn that need through simple things like just language. I feel like you're angry.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  If you're angry and harsh.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  And then the kid can go, no, I don't, I'm not angry. You know, and you're like, okay, cool. Well, how do you feel? Like, what's going on? I'm here to help.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  You know, that kind of stuff. And it's not about trash the house. It's about when you're calm again, hey, we're not doing too well today. Look at the, look at the house. What are we gonna do about it? What do you think we could do? How about you and me help clean it up and we think about something we can do really well together, you know what I mean, guide them back. And it's even like, I'm not talking about it here, but the time out stuff, that evidence was built decades ago as well by this guy called Montrose Wolf. And it's been completely butchered. It's been like, I'll hold the kid, even worse than ignoring, I'll put them in a room and pin the door closed. And they just dysregulate more and goes back to the baby that cries and no one comes, that no one's helping them. I use time out with my kids. When they're really struggling, I take them out of the environment that they're overwhelmed by, we go out together. I help them co-regulate and calm.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  We have to think about consequences and problem solving and we go back out to succeed at playing with your little brother.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Right. So time out is something you do together rather than?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's this environment, this challenge is too much, we need to go out, huddle and go back in again together. And sometimes we come out multiple times, but we keep going back until we succeed. And sometimes we tap out and go, you know what, I'm so exhausted, we're just going home. This playground has not worked. But it's not, you know, on the drive home going, whenever going to the playground again because of how bad you were, or just ignoring the fact that the kid's melted down and thrown something in someone else's face. It's about saying, we didn't do that well together. But next time, the stretch will be shorter, we'll succeed, we'll reinforce it, we'll celebrate how well we did, just in that five minutes of play with another kid.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Okay, this next question also has to do with tantrums, but tantrums that veer into much more concerning territory, this question gets a bit heavy. John asks, my son is nearly five. The vast majority of the time, say 99%, he is a thriving, normal boy. He loves swimming, riding his bike, Lego, he has good friendships. He is loved and supported by myself and his mum, and we all live in the same household with his younger sibling, who is two and a half. A few times in the past year, when he has been extremely upset, he has talked openly about killing himself. He has said quite specific things about a proposed method, which is even more concerning. We have taken him to a GP, who referred him to a clinical psychologist, who returned

• 14:59Speaker 01

  a letter stating that he does meet the criteria for further assessment. We are treating this with a high level of care and respect because we are unsure how serious this is. Simultaneously, we recognise that kids say all kinds of things to gain attention or respect or just to be heard. We are not sure how far to push for an assessment and professional help. Any guidance on this matter would be hugely appreciated.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. It's heavy, isn't it? You hear that story and you're like, God, that's harrowing.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Such a young kid, yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Such a young kid. Yeah, and the first thing of that is just like, what's that? How is that family coping? How are those parents handling that? Because that would be so stressful. Now selfishly, I need them to think about that and work on that because the kid, if I was seeing them in clinic, is my patient, not the parents. But I can't get them to do what I need them to do if they're not addressing how low, stressed, worried, concerned, fearful they are about that little boy saying that stuff first. So it's a really important bit of it. Mental health first aid, which I'm really lucky to be a part of developing the national curriculum around that, talks about safety as the priority. So we think about how do we keep this kid safe?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  And it's not he is safe, it's he feels safe. And this kid won't feel safe in the world. There'll be something that's going on and it's not because the parents have done something wrong. Once again, likely a kid with a sensitive temperament. But there'll be something happening in his world that makes him feel unsafe.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  And you have to address that need in him. You have to think about what is the experience is happening? How do we bring everything back so that he feels safe? When we think about how we respond to that, unintentionally, some people do the wrong thing. It's just because they haven't been taught better. You know, for example, oh my god, you know how much that worries me? I'm terrified because you've just said that. I wouldn't be able to live if something happened to you. That'd be the worst thing that ever happened.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Right, don't say that.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Well, no, even if it's a 15 year old, you're putting weight on their shoulders. You're adding weight, you know, you're adding load and adding stress. And it should be, I'm so sorry that you're experiencing that. I'm here. And holding space with those kids and validating that fear that they have and that lack of safety. And then thinking about what can we do? After we validate that experience, that must feel awful to not want to be here anymore. So sorry you're experiencing that. I'm here and I'll always be here. I'll do whatever we need to do for this to get better.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  You know, instead of like, or the other thing is life's so great. Look at how good life is.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Like gratitude's a really interesting thing that gets pushed out in the community and can cause harm. Because if you've got a kid who doesn't want to live anymore and you're saying your life's great, you should be grateful for all the things that happened to you.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Like so many of us grew up with like, I put a roof over your head.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  And it's like, that's caregiving, that's not love. Some people want a pat on the back because they provide shelter and food and clothes. But the reality is what kids need is unconditional love. And you test that in challenging times, not by paying them on the back and saying, thanks for listening to me.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  So the question also is, should they, at what point, if a kid is saying this, should you always be concerned and take them straight for assessment? Or can it be within the range of normal attention seeking or whatever, you know?

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's, I mean, it's not within the range of normal, like, I know how you mean it and I, I completely understand it. Um, it's not within the range of normal for like a five year old to say, I don't want to live anymore. It's just not like some developmental passage that five year olds go through.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Right, no, I meant range of normal, cause they're just going for the most shocking thing.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're like, this caused a big reaction when I said it the first time, so I'm going to say it next time when I'm really stressed or annoyed or wanting attention and support. Totally, but that's what I worry about. If, if you're kind of sitting there stressed, that's when you meet my clinical threshold, not. Well, there's also a lack of interest in other things, there's poor sleep, the kid can't focus, that's classical. Um, clinical criteria for anxiety, but the problem with it is, is that. You have to have it for quite a long time and you have to meet this really strict list of other symptoms that are occurring, but. That kid is in range of a professional coming in to support them because the parents are like, we're really worried about this. And it might be, he's just wanting attention and support, but once again, why?

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  If he's continuing to do it, that need is not being met.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  And just thinking about how do you give him a help? The, the beautiful thing is he's help seeking. So we know that if we think about kids that are struggling often, the first thing they'll do is externalise, they just act out and lash out. Then when that doesn't work or that causes punishments or it gets ignored, like we were talking about before, they'll internalise and they'll just hold it in, tiniest things. Then what happens is they avoid, they go, I'm not going to go there anymore. I can't go, it's too stressful, it's overwhelming. The first healthy step is help seeking.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Just saying, I need help. And even just giving that little boy better language around, I need help. Is one of the steps that's really important in emotional regulation. So that it's not as distressing as I don't want to live anymore. The reality is that the really high risk kids are older than that. They're nine, 10, 11 and above. They're the really high risk, but part of that is access. The means, how long they've been on welfare, how severe those feelings are for them. But I would still, I'd still want someone who understands mental health first aid and can help these parents to check in with this five year old. And I worry they're waiting a long time to get that help.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  This is All in the Mind from ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar and this is All in the Mind Mailbag Edition. Today, we're answering your listener questions about raising kids of all ages with developmental paediatrician Dr Billy Garvey.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Okay, question on anxiety. Danny asks, I want to know how to help my eight year old manage his social anxiety without therapy. He is very reluctant to get into group activities or team sports or anything where it may involve a group of people. I don't mind about sport, but I don't want this to impact his connections and stop him from challenging himself. Any ideas on how to help him know that he can do this, he just needs to be okay with it not always working out?

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. So there's two bits to that. There's like, we think about frustration tolerance has the emotional regulation component, obviously. So it's like, that's how you learn how to be okay with it not working out. But you also, you don't want him to just not get better at socialising. You know what I mean? Just be like, just be used to it. Most of the time you're going to fail. Good luck.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  That's not the outcome we want. We want him to succeed. And so we think about often, this is a bit boring, but Zygotsi, you have this own proximal development and what it's about is like, where's your stretch at? And so like, first time I teach a kid to ride a bike and I go, here's the BMX track. Good luck. You know, I go, cool, let's just have a small little, you know, playful experience with the bike and we just build up from there. And once it gets overwhelming, you get distressed, you throw the bike, you get really scared, you fall off. I'll look and say, want to jump back on? But if it's Completely overwhelmed and you go, sweet, well done, that was awesome, let's try again tomorrow. And it's the same with social development. The thing about social development is we can actually prepare for it even without another kid there.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  And we do it through story times, the books we read, action figures, like action figures can be really wonderful and dolls in this space. Where one of them's like sitting off and really nervous and you're like, what do you think's going on? How come, how come Batman's not cool to come and fight the bad guys together with the rest of the team? What do you think might be happening? You might be scared. Oh, even Batman, Batman gets scared? Yeah, Batman gets scared too. What can we do to help Batman? We can tell him we'll do it with him. We'll go and do a little mission and like win at that and then Batman will feel brave again and feel like he can win. You know, and then you go back out. The interesting thing, I think, what a lot of people do socially is they're like, cool, we're just gonna go to the playground and you figure it out. Or we roll into the birthday party and we're like, we've had a pep talk with you in the back of the car on the way to the party, you're gonna be sweet.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Those, I, I get terrified at birthday parties. And the playground at school is the same, it's the last place kids who struggle to socialise succeed. But we just expect you'll figure it out, just stay on the playground. But it's like if you keep sending a kid who can't ride a bike onto the BMX track and you're like, with time you'll get it. No, they won't. And a lot of them will develop antisocial behaviours such as unhealthy assertiveness, I'll just take what I want. Or they just hide and they just let everyone walk over them and they get bullied. So how do we step them out? And the play behaviours that you can do is just one other kid really structured activity at your house. So you're coming over, you can do some painting, we're gonna have a snack and then we're gonna play a game. And you go, cool, one, two, three, bang, happens over an hour. How great was that? And then you can talk about it.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  This kid is eight years old though, would the advice be a little bit different for a kid at that age?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  No, and that's the trap you can fall into is like they're, because they're this old, they should be able to do this. You know, and so the bike is a good example again, we meet kids that are like, they're nine, they should be able to ride the bike by now. But it's like, do they have the steps? No, they're really anxious, so we just didn't do it.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  And it's like, cool, well, let's go back to that. Let's go back to there. And if this kid is struggling socially, thinking about what's a small enough stretch. Safest environment, safest relationships, home with a parent there with one other kid you know really well. You just get good at that. Then you introduce another kid, then you go to that kid's house. The playground on your own, the birthday party, the playground at school, those are the last steps.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Good, practical advice.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Someone we'll call Julia asks, how do I manage myself with the reality of having raised a child who might launch into failure? My 19-year-old is suffering from burnout, the culmination of living with undiagnosed autism, hypermobility syndrome, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, depression, anxiety, among other things. I feel so guilty about running out of energy to parent her, but I'm scared of what her life might be like when she leaves my care. Who is the person I need to be that is best for the both of us? I also want to care for my husband and two other children with complex needs.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you don't need to change who you are if that's how you're thinking about parenting. You probably need to think about yourself, like thinking about how overwhelming it can be to support a 19-year-old who's neurodivergent and burning out and has chronic health issues. So, yeah, you don't need to be a different parent. I think you need support around you to think about what does this kid need in front of me? And as we're becoming more aware of the needs of neurodivergent kids, we're understanding that accommodations are really important. The important thing about, like, I think a lot of people get lost in, like, the kid can just stay home from school. They're so burnt out, they're so exhausted, they'll just stay here. But that doesn't help either, because I meet kids, I still meet probably a kid a week

• 25:36Speaker 02

  who hasn't gone back to school since pandemic.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So one of the therapeutic approaches we think about is how do we accept how we're feeling? How do we process that? Well, mindfulness can be part of that. What's the feeling I'm having now? Not why is it there, I need to fix it, but just actually processing that, helping that kid learn, you are burnt out, and accepting that, radically accepting it is one approach that we talk about.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  We have talked about radical acceptance a lot on the show recently.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So radical acceptance is really important because it doesn't, it moves, it's the opposite, it's the antidote to that guilt and shame. Don't you know how lucky you are? You should be grateful. Like, it's no, no, this is what's happening for me, and radically accepting it. But then thinking about what are healthy processes to regulate that emotion? What works for me? And then we think about what are the skills that will help us step forward? How do we go back into school successfully? How do we go back into the world? How do we leave our bedroom? You know, a lot of it is social relationships. A lot of these kids and adults don't know how to ask for help. They don't know how to resolve conflict, they don't know how to assert themselves, they don't really understand empathy and compassion. And think about, none of us were really taught this stuff. You were taught algebra, but no one said... This is how to conflict resolve.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  You know, objectively stating what happened, how it made that you feel. What's the need underlying that and what's the request?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  That would have been really helpful.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, imagine if someone taught you that. And if that's where this nineteen year old's going wrong, that's. So we have to have specific goals that have to be measurable and not being like, I wish things were better. I wish you listened to me. I wish you left this house. What matters to that kid? I've never met a teenager. I've met teenagers that only leave their bedrooms. I've never met one. It doesn't have something they care about.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  You find that thing. Like, I play video games for this reason because I can. Connect with a kid because of that. And sometimes a parent needs to be like, what are you doing? Not judge mentally. And like, I'm spending hours watching this anime. You're like, sweet, I'm gonna learn about it.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  I'm gonna watch it with you. Then I'm gonna ask questions about it. And then we're gonna explore the real world. How is this thing happening at Comic Con? We're gonna go to it together and we're gonna dress up as our favorite ones and all that stuff.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  That's a great idea.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  School in months.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Be like, I need to connect with you first.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  I need to show you that I actually don't care about you going to school. I care about what the quality of your life is like. And you prove it through those things, dressing up for Comic Con, sitting there and watching anime, even if you hate it. Finding common ground, just celebrating our kids.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  It's like, it's the most important thing we'll ever do. Cause, you know, it's gonna go quick for us. Like, our kids will be gone. And it's not these harsh lessons. Of F around and find out.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  It's, I just adored you. Cause then that's how they feel about themselves.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  And then they go, I'm safe to be whoever I am. I don't need to go to school and mask and be someone I'm not all day.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Because my mum tells me I'm good enough and makes me feel like I'm good enough. And then I go out and succeed. You know, it's, it's just. Yeah, if I could change one thing about the world, that would be up there. Like, it's just how can kids learn that they're good enough? We love them for who they are and then find ways to help them succeed. And that's what. Yeah, that's what it's actually about. You don't get anything like grades or attendance until you step through those things.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Safe, belonging, celebrated for who they are.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Those are lovely words to end on. Thank you so much, Dr. Billy Garvey.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  It's wonderful to be with you. So thanks for having me, Sam.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  That is all in the mind for this week. Thank you to all of you who sent us questions. We hope you found this episode useful and helpful. And a big thank you to developmental paediatrician Dr Billy Garvey. You might know him from his podcast Pop Culture Parenting, where you can learn a whole lot more about parenting through a pop culture lens. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr and senior producer James Bullen. Our sound engineer this week was Antonia Gauci. My name is Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time.

• 29:30Speaker 03

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