Wild Shipwreck and Cannibal Story That Inspired Moby Dick

When a whaling ship sank in 1820, her crew were cast adrift thousands of miles from land, and faced starvation, madness, and death. Their ordeal would become one of the most extraordinary survival stories in maritime history… and would become immortalised by Herman Melville's novel, Moby-Dick. This episode was edited by Hannah Feodorov. The producer was Tomos Delargy. Senior Producer is Freddy Chick. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DX74ZgzrlyH29 Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 2:15Speaker 00

  When a whaling ship sank in 1820, her crew were cast adrift thousands of miles from land. They faced starvation, madness and death. Their ordeal would become one of the most extraordinary survival stories in maritime history and would become immortalised by Herman Melville's novel, Moby Dick.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  This is the true story of the Essex and her doomed crew. From the deck of a whaling ship on the high seas, welcome to After Dark.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Antony.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  And I'm Maddie.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  In 1820, a whale attacked and sank a whaling ship in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. For the crew, this was the beginning of a desperate struggle for survival that would leave most of the crew dead and inspire one of the greatest novels ever written. Apparently, I've never read it. I wouldn't know. We're talking about Moby Dick.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  I haven't read it either.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  I feel like we're terrible people.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  I imagine for American listeners, write in, but did you all do it in school, I expect?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  That's one of those ones.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  It's long, right?

• 3:51Speaker 00

  See, we do a lot of American novels in school in this country that we had to do of Myths and Men. We had to do, I think, The Great Gatsby, but we never did Moby Dick.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Personally, I can't read, so I...

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Well, there is that. I mean, it's a shame. Yeah, it is a bit sad. Do you know much about the history behind the novel?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  I know more about that than I do about the novel.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Okay, well, they're sort of one in the same, right? Like, one inspired the other. So we're in 1819 into 1821.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Lovely.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  This is a voyage that begins in Nantucket.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  I love the name.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Yes. I have such a sort of aesthetic interest in American coastal things. So Nantucket is an island. It's about 30 miles south of Cape Cod. I had a friend who did a PhD for when you get whale bones and you carve them, scrimshaw, which is like a fascinating 19th century thing that people did. And sailors did it and they would sell the little bits and bobs of bone. And she went out to, I think, Martha's Vineyard and places like that. And she went and looked at the whales, who are not hunted anymore, thank God. Yeah, fascinating. I just think it's so, it's such an interesting time.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Well, it's cute now.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  This is the thing. Wasn't cute, like, as in Nantucket's cute now, but it wasn't cute then.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  It's a much different place than we imagined it to be today.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'll tell you a little bit about the age of whaling. Because, I mean, it was really brutal. But before we get to that, just to give you an impression of the shape of this story. So, like I say, we're in 1819 into 1821, and this is a ship called the Essex.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:21Speaker 00

  But in my head, I'm just hearing it in an Essex accent. I won't do that.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  How do you say Essex in an Essex accent?

• 5:26Speaker 00

  Essex.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Like that.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Is that an Essex accent? I don't know.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  I sound like a little witch.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  I've been cancelled. It's fine. Some of my family's from Essex. You sound like a little witch.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  No, but it did.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Were there Essex witch trials?

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, there were, weren't there?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Yes, there's a whole Essex museum. Yeah, like, it's quite a big thing.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Now, right, we're digressing. You can tell that I've only just come back to the part because what's happening? Okay, so the Essex is a whale ship, and it's out in the Pacific Ocean. And on the 20th of November, 1820, so we're a few months into its voyage, it is rammed by a sperm whale.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  More than once.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is really unusual. So we'll get into the kind of encounters between people and whales that were being had in this moment. And there was violence on both sides, but...

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Both sides of the whale and the ship.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  I'm fully on the side of the whale in every scenario here. But this big ship, the Essex, is rammed multiple times by a whale, a vengeful, angry whale. And they decamped little boats. Some of them survive. And then it all goes really tits up. And spoiler alert, our favourite topic. Oh, God, he's gone full Hannibal.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  It's cannibalism.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  It's cannibalism.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  It's cannibalism with a nice Chianti and some father beans.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Have I seen that movie? Yeah, I have.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Surely.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  No, I have, I have.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Absolute masterpiece of horror. Anthony Hopkins, hideous in that.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Right, okay. So you mentioned that we have this industry that is happening. And, you know, this isn't quaint Nantucket as we know it now. Talk to me a little bit about what this industry looks like at this time.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, so whaling is at its peak in the sort of late 18th century into the mid 19th century. And it is incredibly brutal. So it's a huge industry. Whale oil was used in things like lamps, soap. Now, in my notes, it says machinery lubrication. And I'm assuming that there is not a comma missing, that it's machinery, comma, lubrication. I'm assuming it's lubrication for the machinery because nobody wants to use that from the whale. Spermiceti oil, which is from sperm whales, was the highest in demand because basically you could burn it and it was, it created like a clean, bright flame. And it didn't have the kind of greasy smell and it wouldn't turn like your walls black and things. So it was high quality.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Of that time period, that freaks me out, that smell that they often talk about, that they're getting. It's on you, it's in your hair.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  I mean, I think it's one thing that we forget about so much of history, just in terms of like burning candles, not even oil in this period. Like, you think about like tallow candles and stuff. If you've ever burned a tallow candle, they stink. They really stink. You think about the constant smell that people would have lived with. And, you know, think about the 18th and 19th century. You would have to pay more to have candles that didn't smell. So if you were not the wealthiest people in society, you would be living with like this constant stench in your home and you're using oil as well as candles. So, yeah, smelly times. By the 1840s and 50s, there were hundreds of whaling ships going out from the coast of America. And it's, I mean, it's a really lucrative industry. It's a very dangerous one, as we're going to find out.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  The whales are not taking this lying down, swimming around. They're fighting back.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  And good for them. And of course, this, you know, there are instances of, as I say, these kind of violent moments in which the animals take not kindly to being attacked and killed. But this particular story is one that sears itself into the cultural imagination. And of course, it ends up being the inspiration for Melville's Moby Dick, which neither of us have read. I will read it after this episode, actually. This history, this history has really inspired me.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  I love the history. I love this history, but I don't care about that book.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  But you don't love a 19th century novel.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Ah, no, I like a 19th century. No, because, you know, I love the Brontes.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  I was going to say, favourite 19th century novel?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Wuthering Heights.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Jane Eyre.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I prefer Wuthering, but also Picture Dorian Gray.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Uh, boring.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  It is boring.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  I'm not an Oscar Wilde fan. I know, I know that you love him and.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  I'm Irish and gay, I have to.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the law. Yeah. Picture Dorian Gray, no. The, the plays, love, fantastic. Oh.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, not my gig. But I also like some of the children's stories more than that.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  I've not read the children's stories. Maybe I should give those a go, but.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  You'll like those.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Dorian Gray, not for me.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  You like those.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Annoying. It's like, just get on with it.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's because you're not a closeted gay man reading it in your teenage years.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it didn't touch my soul at the moment.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  That spins different when you're that. Yeah. Anyway, what happens in Moby Dick then?

• 10:02Speaker 00

  That's a very good question. According to my notes. Okay, so interestingly, Herman Melville did begin his career as a sailor on whaling ships. So this is a world he absolutely knew. He's a little bit later than this story, but as we're going to find out, he does meet some of the people who survive it. But, so he, he knew about the Essex disaster and it becomes this direct kind of foundation for the novel. So in the novel, the novel version, this isn't exactly what happens in the real history. It's set around the crew of a whaling ship that's led famously by Captain Ahab. Must have heard of Captain Ahab.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  No, I haven't. Genuinely, no, I know, I know, I know. You were right to make that face in my direction.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  Surprisingly. You're too busy reading the picture of bloody Dorian Gray.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  I've only read it twice, but no, I, I like.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Twice is too many times. Okay, so Ahab has this kind of, he's like this maverick character and he has this dark reputation. And he has had this kind of previous run in with a great white whale, this kind of weird mythical strange creature, which bit his leg off.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Which, you know, fair. So he has this kind of hatred.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  It's giving Peter Pan.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Captain Hook.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a little bit.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Anyway, sorry, go on.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  So he, he only has one leg and.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  I wonder if there's a J M Barry Melville.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Barry's later, right?

• 11:18Speaker 00

  He's later, he's towards the end of the 19th, early 20th century, isn't he? But anyway, so Ahab wants to get this whale and revenge his leg and the white whale wants to finish him off.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  I can't say that.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  You've said it. Don't take it out. Leave it in.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  She has to say the white whale wants to finish him off.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  I'm leaving it in.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  The white sperm whale wants to finish him off.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Oh, Jesus Christ. The maturity levels are so high on this. Ahab finds the whale, he harpoons him and it dives down to bottom of the ocean, but it takes Ahab with him. Spoiler alert, if you haven't yet read the novel. He drowns. The end.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Not the whale.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  He sort of dies, it's this big climax and he dies like with the whale, essentially. But the real history is darker, scarier, weirder.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay, so we have the story of Moby Dick in the background there. We can just ignore that. Now we get to the really interesting stuff, which is the Essex itself. Now.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  You have, you have converted me over the years to nautical naval sea histories. I never gave a shit. Now I do. I love them now.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Literally, you can't. I went to the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich recently for the first time in many years. God, it's good.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  He's still living at the store.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  You did, didn't you? If you haven't been, go. And I, I literally went crazy in the gift shop with the nautical books. I was like, yep, yep, yep. Brilliant. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah, so let's get into this. The Essex. This is to give you a sense of how big these ships were, because obviously they're going after whales. Whales, one thing we know about them, big.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  Technical term, spermium big. Wow. So the Essex, and I've been given some very helpful statistics by producer Tom.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Go on.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  The Essex was 87 feet long, which is 27 metres.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Hold on, 27 metres?

• 13:09Speaker 00

  27 metres is a big ship.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  It also weighed 238 tonnes, which Tom has converted for some reason into stone.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  I go on, I know stone more. How many stone?

• 13:18Speaker 00

  37,478 stone.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Stone? 37,000 stone?

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. That was me at the end of pregnancy.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  So it's designed to go out in the South Pacific Ocean, which is full of sperm whales. So it's, you know, a big ship going out to do this really difficult job. Whaling voyages, have a guess how long they lasted? This surprised me. You'd think months, right?

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say months.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Years, two to four years. So you are committing. And how many whales, I wonder, are they killing in that time?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  How are they doing with them? Where are they taking them?

• 13:51Speaker 00

  So my understanding is that they harpoon them, kill them in the water, multiple harpoons.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And they go out from the big boat and the little boats to do that, right?

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Yes, they go out in the little boats to do that. And then they are cutting them up in the water. So literally climbing on them and cutting them and then bringing large parts of them on to the big vessel.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Don't like it.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  And presumably then converting them to oil rather than taking, or are they just taking the blubber home? We don't know. Maybe a producer will tell us.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  They can't be storing those for like a year. They're obviously selling them at different ports as they go, are they?

• 14:21Speaker 00

  That ship must have stunk. I think they're storing it a lot. I think they're out, I mean, they can't be out for two or two to four years on the sea continuously, surely not. But maybe they'd sink, what, just based on being out there for.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  All the blubber piling off in the ship, just shit loads of fat.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Just coming back into harbour, just gradually going down the water, like four years later, quick.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  They had a good voyage there. Nearly drowning.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  They're nearly drowning. So with the Essex specifically, we start to get things going a little bit wrong. It's a pretty brutal voyage straight away. There are loads of storms and severe weather, not unusual in the Pacific, but they do run into a lot of difficulty.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  It's in bad nick. The Essex is not on good nick.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  They do things like the rations, you know, they're trying to stretch them and they end up adding Galapagos tortoises to their rations because, you know, they need food and they see the big tortoises. Are they, they're big, the Galapagos ones? They're like the massive ones, aren't they? And they're like, yes, we'll eat those. Which always just makes me think of Charles Darwin. Didn't he have one of the Galapagos tortoises?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  So cute as well.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  They lived for ages. Didn't the one who belonged to Darwin die like 10 years ago or something? I love stories of that where you have like a weird perception of time and often you get that with animals. Is it the Greenland shark that can live to like 400 years old or something? Which is mad. It's just knocking around under the ice and it could have like, I mean, it didn't witness any of these things. It was still knocking around in the ice 400 years ago. But it knew him personally. Yes, yes, yes. Things start to go so wrong that some of the crew start to think that this ship might be cursed. And it's one thing that I love about sort of nautical maritime culture is just how superstitious it is. There are lots of bits of damage to the ship, as you said, and, you know, lots of repairs are done. And there's just like bad luck after bad luck. And people are like,

• 16:04Speaker 00

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  Hi there, I'm Dan, host of Dan Snow's History Podcast. And I can imagine on these dark winter nights, all you're gonna do is curl up with a cup of tea and get lost in an amazing story. Well, I can help you with that. Twice a week, I tell you the most dramatic and extraordinary stories from history with details I can guarantee you've never heard before. Feel the frostbite of that grisly failed American invasion of Canada in the dead of winter. Imagine every clash and blow at the Battle of Bosworth. Follow Eleanor of Accretaine, one of the most powerful women in the medieval world, as she goes on crusade to the Holy Land with 300 handmaidens in tow.

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• 18:50Speaker 00

  Would you like to meet some of the people aboard?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Yes, I actually would.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Okay, I've convinced you this is an interesting history.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  No, yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Well done me. Okay, so we have the captain, who is 29 when the voyage begins.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, young, right.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Which is young, George Pollard, Jr. He is going to survive. He's going to do quite well. There is Owen Chase, who is the first mate. Then we have the second mate, Matthew Joy. I'm loving some of these surnames, Chase, Joy, they're fun. He survives the sinking, but he also dies afterwards of a short illness. So that's not great. Possibly, I would argue, maybe, I don't know what the illness is, but I'm guessing maybe related to the circumstances they're going to live through, because this isn't great. Then there is Thomas Nickerson, he's the cabin boy, and he also writes an account of what happens. He's young, I don't know exactly how old, but...

• 19:40Speaker 01

  I think they have almost 10, not quite 10, but from what I remember, it's quite a few teenagers are on board.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, I've been doing more of research at the moment in ships that were transporting people and goods around the British Isles in kind of the same moment, actually. And it really surprised me, when you look at the sort of records of different wrecks, that actually cabin boys are often, on these smaller ships, the sons of the captain.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Which is super interesting, and often they're either the ones who die with the captain, because they obviously go to their dad, or they're often the ones who survive with the captain, because the captain prioritizes them over the people, because it's their child. Which is interesting, but in this case, Thomas Nickerson, as far as I know, he's not related to anyone on board, but he is the cabin boy. And you know, for a young boy, he's going to see some shit. Then there are Lawrence and Seth Weeks, who are part of the crew, presumably brothers. And they also survive. Then we have Charles Ramsdale, who's a sailor. He's remembered for surviving the longest and harshest conditions that are going to come on this voyage. So he has a really difficult time. So that is the scene set, that's the ship that we're aboard.

• 20:48Speaker 00

  And we're going to get into some whale hunting now.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Well, my favourite thing about this history is that the whale attack, which we're about to go into, is not the interesting thing about this. It's the beginning of what unfolds.

• 21:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  So it's like, it starts with a whale attack, that's crazy.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  It's a remarkable event, and then things just go downhill from here. So, I mean, look, good for this whale. Good for the whale. You know, this is, as we say, it's completely brutal, they're harpooning them, it's vile, it's violent. This whale is not having it. So we have the Essex itself, some people are still aboard the big ship. We have some people in the smaller boats, now they've lost some of the smaller boats, haven't they, at this point?

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Earlier, yeah.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Because of all the bad luck that they've had, and the bad weather and all of that.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing got to do with the whale, yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  So they only have a smaller number of the small boats. They've decamped into those, it's about six to eight men in each one, with the harpoons at the ready, and they go after this whale. Now, it was not unknown for whales to retaliate and attack the smaller boats. And you can understand how people might get knocked out of them, or they might get smashed or whatever. If this creature is writhing around in the water trying to escape, that, you know, you can see that happening a lot. However, it is more unusual for these whales to attack the big ship. And this is what happens here, and this is, I mean, it's really bizarre animal behaviour. From a sort of moral point of view, as humans, we're like, yeah, we can see why this would happen. But it is incredibly unusual in terms of the natural world.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  This animal goes to the ship, not once, but twice, and strikes the side of it, sort of headbutts into it.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  In fact, it comes back, I love that detail.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like an orca attack with posh people's yachts, right?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  A what attack?

• 22:30Speaker 00

  An orca attack.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes, yes, yeah.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  You know, orcas, ever heard of them?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, in my head, I was thinking Lord of the Rings. I was like, what is she talking about, man?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Just kind of a Lord of the Rings tangent.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Orca, yes, not orc.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Oh my god, are orcas the orcs of the maritime world?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Discuss in the comments.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  So, yeah, this he, the whale, maybe it's a she.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  It should be a she.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  I mean, pop off, queen. They hit the side, let's not, you know, let's not make assumptions. Hit the side of the ship multiple times, causes enough damage that the ship begins to sink. We are in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, it's not going well, lads. I have an image for you to take a look at, and this is, I mean, it's sort of, it looks like, I mean, it is a Charles drawing, it's a drawing by the cabin boy, Thomas Nickerson, around about 1820, when this attack happens, or shortly after. It is a pencil sketch showing the scene and the moment in which this whale attacks, and it, I mean, it's obviously a horrendous moment for these people's spirits.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  But this kind of looks like when your kid comes home from school, and they're like, I did this picture, and you're like, great, I'll put this on the fridge.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Now, I will say.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  It's very detailed.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  The ship is nicely rendered.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  It's got its masts, it's a three masty thingy.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  That is a technical term.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you. And, but what the hilarious thing about it is, that just in front of it, about to ram it with its big old nose, a sperm whale. And look at its little cute fin that he's drawn on the side.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's got like a little floppy arm.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  That's so cute, and his little cute whale tail is so cute as well.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  It does have angry teeth, though, to be fair.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  It does, it does. Now, what the other thing is interesting, is that you see that, what you just described, Mandy, about the little boats in the water around, so there's some people on the big boat, there's some people on the little boats.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  And some of the whales, little baby whales.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, around it as well, so...

• 24:24Speaker 00

  But I think this, what Thomas is trying to maybe communicate here, I think, is, it's the scale of the whale

• 24:29Speaker 01

  That's the striking thing.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  That hits the ship, right, because there are these kind of smaller whales that they're attacking in the small boats, and then this big beast comes out of nowhere. And you can, you can kind of, you know, get the sort of Moby Dick impression of this big, the big white whale. We have a quote from one of the people on board, called Owen West, who gives a first-hand account as a survivor. And I'm going to get you to read it for us, please.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  "I turned around and saw him, the whale, about 100 rods, or 500 metres, directly ahead of us, coming down with twice his ordinary speed of about 24 knots, that's about 44 kilometres per hour, apparently. And it appeared with tenfold fury and vengeance in his aspect. The surf flew in all directions about him, with the continual violent thrashing of his tail, his head about half out of the water. And in that way, he came upon us, and again struck the ship. All right, Owen, that's drama, isn't it?"

• 25:27Speaker 00

  I love it. So this creature seems to be, I mean, they're sort of anthropomorphising it, aren't they?

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Talking about like fury and vengeance, but...

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, we know what he's feeling, yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I also think, and you know, this is presumably, having not read it, something that I imagine is kind of at the centre of Moby Dick, right? This idea of this sort of human-animal relationship, and that there's this intimacy between the hunter and the hunted. And when that relationship is flipped, there's a sort of a strange connection between man and beast.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  That is going to be hard to escape from, or extradite yourself away from, especially if you're stuck out in the ocean. And yeah, this is, this is not a novel, though, this is what really happened, this occurred.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  And that's what's amazing about it, and it's like, it's that thing of going, that Owen here, and the lads talking amongst themselves in the immediate aftermath of this, well, or in the months and weeks afterwards, they are creating a monster. And they're creating an adversary for themselves. And it makes them more interesting, that they survive this bigger... Well, listen, I'm sure it was absolutely dreadful, of course it would have been. But they are creating a monster here.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, and ironically, as we're going to find out, it's the human dangers that are going to be, you know, it's the dangers within themselves, and their other crewmates, the problem.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  And the great thing about this is, well, the great thing, but the interesting thing about this is, you would imagine that we're going to say on a great After Dark tradition, "And 28 people were killed", but no, like, the crew, this isn't that unusual, well, it's unusual in the ferocity, but whale attacks happen, they are prepared for this, and so the crew escape.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Yes, they do, yeah, so the ship is damaged, they realise very quickly it can't be saved.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  And that it is going to go down, along with all the blubber they've presumably harvested over the last few months. And the turtles, which are pretty really dead at that point, so, you know, it's not, I don't, I don't think they're like knocking round on the deck, are they?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Some of them were, yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  No, they kept them alive.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Well, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, and they were held captive.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  What a surreal scene. Galapagos turtles on deck of a ship that's being rammed by a giant whale.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  So they kept some of them as pets, and then downstairs, down under, in the deck downstairs, in the deck, down under deck, they had, below deck, they had

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Well done.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Hundreds of them in little, it's very sad to imagine, they're really, really contained, and loads of them end up dying. Anyway, because of the situation.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Fair enough. Can you imagine if you're a tortoise that's been taken from the Galapagos, and you're below deck on a ship, and then suddenly a whale's coming at you, you must be like...

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Thanks, mate.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you, but also, what the fuck is happening? Okay, so, they've only got three of these smaller boats left. And the crew that's surviving jump into them. Without much thought or planning, they're just, "Quick, lads, we need to escape". They set off quickly away from the whale.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Because, you know, you're floating now vulnerably in this small boat, and there's this huge creature who is described as, what is it? Vengeful and furious, just beneath you, I mean, you must have been very aware that, yeah, you know, row quickly. And for two days, they managed to float away. But they've salvaged some supplies from the ship as it's sinking. There's not enough, and so they need to make a decision about where they're going to go, which direction land is in, what their best bet of survival is, you know, they're out on the open ocean. They make some weird decisions. There are some Pacific islands that are relatively nearby to them. And we do have a map here where you can see

• 28:59Speaker 00

  the sort of, the journey that they're taking, from November when they're attacked, into December, as they're floating on the small boats, trying to survive. And you can see that there is a smattering of islands that they could have gone to, to try and find food and help. But in classic colonial mindset culture, they decide that they're too afraid of, quote unquote, "the cannibalistic indigenous islanders of the Pacific", that they don't want to stop on those islands and ask for help. Which is ironic, considering what is going to come later on. And so they decide that they're going to set out on a 4,000 mile voyage.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  No, perfect.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  Rather than talk to the indigenous people, to try and get to the mainland of South America and survive that way. It's not going to go that well.

• 30:00Speaker 02

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• 30:13Speaker 03

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• 30:30Speaker 04

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• 31:22Speaker 01

  So I know that they have navigational tools with them.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Because they grabbed them before the ship went down, but I'm presuming they also had-

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Would you think to do that?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  In that circumstance, yeah, right? Because you're going to be trained for that.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  It's that thing about putting on your high-vis jacket when the fire alarm goes off. It's just like, I'm doing it. Like, that's what I do. I grab my navigational-

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Tools. You know what I mean? Like, I'm being glib, but you know what I'm saying? And somebody will be assigned to do that, but they also will have had to get food.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  But they're in three relatively small boats and they're all still alive for now, and so-

• 31:55Speaker 00

  So they, they, yeah, I mean, obviously they're doing this 4,000 mile voyage. Like, they're going to need to stop at some point and resupply. But while they're in the boats, they have a daily ration per man of half a pint of water.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  That's it?

• 32:06Speaker 00

  There's barrels of water they've got with them.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  That's their water?

• 32:08Speaker 00

  That's all they have got. And they have ship's biscuits, which, you know, are kind of tough, grim little things. They weigh one pound, three ounces each. That's, they're allowed one of those a day.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Oh, it's tight.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not looking good. So we're in November when the initial incident with the ship going down happens. Now we're moving to December, so they, for an entire month, the boats are just floating around, trying to find somewhere to land on this voyage, like just trying to survive. And eventually they come to an island called Henderson Island, which as far as they can tell is uninhabited. And this seems like they're saved. I mean, they're still a long way from anything else. They're really out in the Pacific still, so they can't stay here forever. And I'll talk about that in a second because I think that's an interesting point. But they literally, I mean, you can see it in your minds, I write so cinematic sort of pulling the boats up onto the sand. And they find fresh water. There are birds. There are eggs that the birds are laying. They eat those.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  There are edible plants, so they've, they've managed to survive. They've found this, this little sort of resource. So interestingly, if anyone remembers our bounty episode, HMS Bounty, the mutiny that takes place, which is in the 1780s, 1789. And I don't know if anyone remembers from that, that the survivors there, the mutineers, some of them make it to Pitcairn Island, which is also in the Pacific. It's only 120 miles away. And in 1821, when this is happening, we're in 1820, going into 1821 now. They, one of the bounty mutineers, John Adams, who's one of the founders of Pitcairn, is still alive. So it's an interesting kind of crossover of, you know, two of the biggest, most important, impactful and disastrous voyages in, in this period.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  However, so we've got these three boats. We've made it to Henderson Island. There are 20 men across through three boats. They're not going to survive on this island for long. The resources aren't going to support a community of 20 men. So after a week, 17 of those men decide to go. Three of them do stay.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  That's interesting, isn't it, that they got? I wonder if they picked them to stay because they were weakest or because they were, there'll have been a practical reason, right?

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Surely. I mean, they, they make the decision to stay on the understanding that they're going to be rescued at some point. Presumably when their colleagues have gone to the mainland and then-

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  You're really trusting your crewmates there.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  They do go, spoiler, they do go back for them.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, they do, but they could have easily-

• 34:34Speaker 01

  They go wrong first, but then they come back for them.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  A lot of stuff's going to happen between. Would you rather, at this point, knowing what's coming, stay on that island?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Stay on the island.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've got your birds' eggs, you've got your fresh water, you've got some sunshine.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  I don't need to be in that boat. Thank you.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Off you go.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  It's the wrong choice to go on the boat. I mean, someone has to, so the other people are rescued.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  So we're grateful to those people. Don't want to be on the boat. So 17 of them now set off. They're going for South America from Henderson Island. This is huge, huge expanse of ocean they need to cross. Inevitably, they can't take that many supplies with them. And so it doesn't take that long into their voyage, these three boats. They become separated. The sea is rough.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 35:15Speaker 00

  So these three, we now have three separate groups going their separate ways, vaguely heading for South America with some instruments shared between the boats. Do they all know where they're going? Have they made a plan? Unclear. Now, dehydration is setting in. Starvation is setting in. And in January 1821, and bearing in mind they were only on Henderson Island in December 1820, so it's only another month in, they make the decision to cannibalize some of the people on board.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Now, they've died first, right? In the first instance?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Okay, at first, yes.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Yes. So there are people who die, and this is taking place across the three boats as well, which is remarkable that, you know, they all turn to this. Yes, at first people are just dying of exposure, starvation, dehydration. And those who are left behind feel they have little choice. But in order to survive, they have to eat the bodies of their, their colleagues. But inevitably, you eat one person, you're still stuck on a boat. You've got to eat something else after that. There are some quotes from Owen Chase, who, is he the first mate? I think he's the first mate. And also from Thomas Nickerson, who is the little cabin boy. So Owen Chase says, quite calmly,

• 36:36Speaker 00

  "We were obliged to sustain life by feeding upon the bodies of our dead companions."

• 36:41Speaker 01

  That is a sentence.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Thomas Nickerson, however, you know, young child at the time, writing afterwards, gives a slightly more colorful version of events. Do you want to read what he says?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  "I have no language to paint the horrors of our situation."

• 36:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, you can imagine the impact that's going to have on him for the rest of his life, having seen this and taken part in it. Okay, so at first we have people die naturally. Inevitably, though, some people are going to have to die in order to be eaten. And what is interesting is that in the boat that's been commanded by Owen Chase, who we know survives, we have his written records, those survivors decide to draw lots to decide who's going to be sacrificed.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  This is crazy.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean-

• 37:28Speaker 01

  What is the atmosphere like on that day?

• 37:30Speaker 00

  You can't fathom being in that scenario. And also, just you'd be bristling with sort of the fear and the, the sense of danger from everyone. You're stuck very close together in this small boat. The threat of violence, where there is no escape. You can't jump into the water. You can't run away. You're fearing yourself, who you're turning into. You're fearing the people around you. I just, I mean, this is, it's so interesting and so dark. So they draw lots. And now the person who unfortunately draws the unlucky lot, if you were him, you'd know that you were going to be the one to die because his name was Owen Coffin.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  A great name.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Great name, lovely. So he's Pollard's cousin, the captain, Pollard. And he draws the unlucky lot and he, you know, there's sort of a sigh of relief of everyone else. Now, Pollard, who is in the boat as well, says, "I'll take your place." Because he's the captain. He's like, "I'm not going to let my cousin die." But no, Owen Coffin is like, "No, as my name suggests, I'm popping off. I'm going to do this." And I, I wonder- I mean, thank God, we would never have to experience this now or have to ask these questions, but I wonder if there's something about the 19th century mindset compared to our modern day mindset in terms of like the nobility of this sacrifice.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  That he's willing to do this.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Would you be willing to, I'd be willing to do it.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, it comes down to whether you'd rather be eaten or eat someone, doesn't it?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  I'd rather be eaten.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, because I need not know anything about it at that point.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Use me, yeah.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  So they, they, poor old Owen Coffin, they shoot him. At least it's.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Quick.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  You know, quick and dignified-ish. And then they do eat him.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Which is pretty grim. Uh, Captain Pollard tells us about this moment. Read his lines, please, because.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  So this is who? This is the captain?

• 39:20Speaker 00

  This is the captain, yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  "We looked at each other with horrid thoughts in our minds, but we held our tongues. I'm sure we loved one another as brothers all the time, yet our looks told plainly what must be done." And then he ends his account with, "I can tell you no more. My head is on fire with the recollection. I hardly know what I say." That's after the fact as well, you know, that's him looking back over this.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have six people in total who were eaten, which is kind of mad. I mean, it gives you a scale of how long this voyage is taking. And also, you'd think that a human being would go further than this.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Okay, that's literally what my mind.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  They get through though.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  How long does a person last to eat?

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Don't know the answer to that, unsurprisingly.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  I'll leave it in the comments.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Um, so we have two, two of the people who die naturally, and that's Isaac Cole and Barzalai Ray. Barzalai, is that how we're saying that? That's a great name.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, sure.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Barzalai. Owen Coffin is shot, and we have three others who were eaten, which is Samuel Reed, Charles Shorter, and Lawson Thomas. Lawson Thomas is a great name.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Great names there.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Um, all eaten, all consumed. So this is not the end of the story. We know that people are going to survive.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Cut to the 18th of February, 1821. So, you know, a few days ago, they're eating people. Um, we're on our 89 days at sea with Owen Chase's boat.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 40:40Speaker 00

  And a British whaling boat comes across them in the ocean, and three people are still aboard. It's Owen Chase, who we know survives, we have his written record. Nickerson, the cabin boy.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  The little fella.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  And Lawrence, someone called Lawrence. And they are taken aboard the boat, they have survived, woo. I mean, I think that would be fascinating to be on the British whaling boat and to come across them and to just see the haunted looks in their eyes. The 23rd of February, an American whaling boat called Dofan discovers the second of the small boats. Two men that are aboard that are George Pollard, the captain.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  And Charles Ramsdale. There's only two of them left, and in the boat are the picked clean bones of all of their colleagues who they've eaten. I do think it's fascinating that they keep the bones, though.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, why wouldn't you just show it on there?

• 41:29Speaker 00

  For burial?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  No, do you know what I bet you it is? I don't know.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Are they wanting to eat the marrow?

• 41:34Speaker 01

  They're, they're taking as much out of it as they can, they're sucking on bones, I bet you.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  They're getting, they just need anything.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Oh, that's bleak.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  I don't know, I've just made that up, but like.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  I think that's probably accurate.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Then what happens?

• 41:45Speaker 00

  Wow, I'm just gonna sit with that for a minute, that's, that's intense. Um, on the 9th of April, 1821, you'll be glad to hear, this would be you, the Henderson Island survivors are rescued.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they're smart and they stayed put.

• 41:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is for, four months they've been there at this point. Um, all three of them are alive, that's William Wright, Seth Weeks, another great name.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Great name.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  And Thomas Chapel. So in total, there are 20 men who survived the initial sinking of the Essex, eight are left standing at the end.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Hey, do you know what? It's not a bad, considering how.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Would you want to take those odds? I don't know.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  No, yeah, I know what you mean. But, but I, I can imagine a world where there's only three of them left or something, do you know what I mean?

• 42:25Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  So, so this then, so the, the, the eight are rescued, and then they obviously come back to shores and then come back to their own homes in America eventually, and then this captures the imagination of bloody everybody.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  And then we get, which I can imagine, come on, that's a rollicking old tale there.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of fascinated by how, how many of the survivors of the eight do write and sell accounts. Like, let's be clear, you know, they're, they're making money from this. We have Pollard's account, we've got Owen Chase, um, we've got, uh, the cabin boy as well. Uh, you know, good luck to them, they've been through this horrible thing. We know that Captain Pollard, he goes back to Nantucket. Uh, people there blame him for the sinking, the initial sinking, which is a bit unfair. I mean, a whale literally rammed his boat multiple times.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Um, but there's a sense that it was kind of mismanaged. He never, as far as I'm aware, goes back to sea, he works the rest of his career as a night watchman on the land. So I think this is amazing. In 1852, Herman Melville goes to meet Captain Pollard to ask him about the Essex. I would love to write that scene.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  You should then.

• 43:30Speaker 00

  In which Melville, who's kind of, you know, hungry for information and a good story, sitting down with this captain who is presumably reticent to talk about it, you know, and as we've heard in, in his words in this episode, sort of, you know, even years later, struggling to articulate what happened. That would just be, that's the best opening to a film or a novel or something, isn't it? Um, he dies in 1870.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Who does?

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Pollard.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  It's the living with that.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Is, is the weird thing.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, and living with having cannibal, I mean, there's no coming back from that, really, having cannibalized your friends and colleagues. Um, yeah, so Owen Chase, who is the first mate, who survives, and we have his account, um, which he publishes in 1821, which is the same year he's been cannibalizing people. So like, he moves quickly on that deadline, you know, to make a book. He makes a lot of money and he has a successful life. He, he goes back to whaling. I mean, that's, I suppose you don't have a choice if that's what your trade is, but like, it would take some courage to go back out to sea, to face those creatures and that sea and that circumstance again. But he goes on to be a successful captain, but he is deeply haunted, as you would imagine, by what happens. And, um, he has these periods of sort of mental breaks or mental decline, and he hoards

• 44:45Speaker 00

  food in his attic. So he's sort of, you know, obviously so scared of starving to death and that trauma and those sort of behaviours and, you know, all of, all of that is clearly, I mean, bubbling up under the surface and then at times in his life is kind of breaking through. And you can, I mean, you can imagine that. He dies the year before, um, Pollard does in, in 1869. And yeah, I just think that is, it's so, it must have been so sad to have to carry that trauma for the rest of their lives. And I wonder what they thought of Melville writing Moby Dick, whether they were happy for, you know, I mean, obviously in Chase's case, he's published his own account, so he's no, he's not afraid of what happened being in print, he's, he's done that himself.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  But yeah, I just wonder if they were happy with the sort of novelisation of that.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Has this, going over this history, tempted you to read Moby Dick or no?

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I think so. I'm sort of interested, I suppose the thing with Moby Dick is it's the whale that is such an important character. Um, aside from the cannibalism, and there's so much made of that, and that, again, that kind of human animal conflict and the, the sort of strange, you know, being locked in this strange struggle with a beast, which kind of interests me. Because I do think, I mean, if the whale had never rammed the Essex, none of this history would have happened, they would have just killed the whale or killed another whale and got on with it. Um, and they would be, you know, these people would be lost to history, wouldn't know about them. And it's that strange animal behaviour. I don't know how many times in history there are moments of odd animal behaviour that then changes the course of history or who is remembered. I'd love to.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Maybe think about some more episodes on that. But I, I think that is the case here. If this whale hadn't made that strange decision or, or rammed the ship for whatever reason, and we'll never know the reason, then we wouldn't know the names of these people, Moby Dick would never have been written.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  And you and I would never have not read it.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  There we go.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  I want the whale's account, so.

• 46:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  We have all of these crew members things, but I want, I want it in the whale's own words.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  I want, I want the, the whale film, where it's just set entirely underwater and the ship and every, all the other characters are just sort of like blurry blobs above the water and you never really see them.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Right, I need to go and take a nap now, I'm really tired.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm really tired.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  I've just gotten really tired.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  It's lunchtime now, we need to go and eat something.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Seems really early for lunch, but yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  I'll leave you with the words of Herman Melville.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Oh, go on, sorry. It's like, I'm tired, man, I'm done. She still has script.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Wow. Melville says of the Essex story, "It's a wondrous story upon which to found a romance."

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Eh?

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  I don't like it.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Not like a sexy romance.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  No, I want it to be a sexy romance. Heated rivalry on board the Essex.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  With whales.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Have you ever seen heated rivalry?

• 47:32Speaker 00

  No.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  I've watched, shame maybe I should.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  I've literally watched no TV at the moment, it's very sad for me.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  I don't know why I'm talking about this, this is ridiculous, okay.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  So I need to watch heated rivalry, you need to read Moby Dick.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna do it. Moby rivalry. He's a dick. He's a dick!

• 47:49Speaker 00

  On that note, thank you for joining us. Okay, if you've enjoyed this episode or you have a suggestion for an episode of an animal that's changed the course of history.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  That's a, I love that.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  I really want to do that. Get in touch, you can write to us at [email protected].

• 48:12Speaker 02

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• 48:25Speaker 03

  Everybody, listen up.

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• 48:42Speaker 04

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