Pinduoduo

We kick off Season 7 with a bang: Pinduoduo, the incredible five year-old Chinese mashup of "Costco and Disneyland" (as self-described in their IPO prospectus) which recently became the fastest company ever to pass $100B market capitalization. What makes PDD so special, and how were they able to enter a market that everyone considered "already won" and disrupt massive entrenched competitors Alibaba and JD.com? This story is chock-full of lessons that apply not only to China tech, but to high-growth company building and investing everywhere. Sponsors: Vanta: https://bit.ly/acquiredvantaServiceNow: https://bit.ly/acquiredservicenow26Legora: https://bit.ly/acquiredlegoraStatsig: https://bit.ly/acquiredstatsig26 More Acquired! Get email updates https://www.acquired.fm/email with hints on next episode and follow-ups from recent episodesJoin the Slack http://acquired.fm/slackSubscribe to ACQ2 https://pod.link/acquiredlpMerch Store https://www.acquired.fm/store! © Copyright 2015-2026 ACQ, LLC Links: Photo of 26 year-old Colin at lunch with Warren Buffett: https://thelowdown.momentum.asia/cv-of-pinduoduos-founder/PDD users on mini-programs vs other Chinese e-commerce players: https://miro.medium.com/max/1080/0*39fpSP_JqhDaPhQ2.pngCarve Outs How to Make a Spaceship https://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Spaceship-Renegades-Spaceflight/dp/1594206724Creativity, Inc. https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Overcoming-Unseen-Inspiration/dp/0812993012/Sources: http://investor.pinduoduo.com/static-files/468b2c9f-9112-410d-84b3-2b22e07c7ee0http://investor.pinduoduo.com/static-files/5539839d-0a1c-4d40-9bb7-bdb490e2370chttps://analyse.asia/2018/08/09/episode-260-pinduoduo-their-upcoming-ipo-in-china-with-matthew-brennan/https://analyse.asia/2020/06/28/pinduoduo-on-social-ecommerce-agriculture-with-xinyi-lim/https://blog.ycombinator.com/pinduoduo-and-the-rise-of-social-e-commercehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinduoduo#cite_note-8https://hans.vc/pinduoduo/https://medium.com/@clarkboyd/pinduoduo-everything-you-need-to-know-about-pdd-chinas-third-biggest-ecommerce-site-38ac42086e47https://overcast.fm/+HWy7CWz34https://overcast.fm/+I8dmHF4NUhttps://overcast.fm/+PLdRNCiCghttps://overcast.fm/+TmYdC1VPQhttps://overcast.fm/+TmYfSO3schttps://targetchina.com.au/article/how-pinduoduo-successfully-gained-market-share-through-social-commerce/https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/26/the-incredible-rise-of-pinduoduo/https://technode.com/2020/05/12/pinduoduo-growth-story-needs-a-new-chapter/https://trendslates.substack.com/p/amazons-335bn-in-gmv-amazon-testinghttps://twitter.com/bgurley/status/1255172025053663232https://www.businessinsider.com/fabulous-life-colin-huang-pinduoduo-2020-7https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/what-is-pinduoduo-chinese-ecommerce-rival-to-alibaba.htmlhttps://www.fool.com/investing/2020/07/02/why-pinduoduo-stock-popped-today.aspxhttps://www.fool.com/investing/2020/07/07/4-tough-tasks-for-pinduoduos-new-ceo.aspxhttps://www.forbes.com/real-time-billionaires/#721870433d78https://www.scmp.com/tech/e-commerce/article/3081078/pinduoduo-doubles-down-rural-china-five-year-us71-billion-ehttps://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1737806/000104746918005204/a2236308z424b4.htmhttps://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1737806/000110465920051022/pdd-20191231x20f.htmhttps://www.techbuzzchina.com/episodes/ep-17-pinduoduo-from-zero-to-23b-in-three-yearshttps://www.theinformation.com/articles/chinas-pinduoduo-is-nipping-at-alibabas-heelshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BidaQ22vWvMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqxtfOMMVFghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjLhCK8sUcwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbskb0KMBUU&t=4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbskb0KMBUU&t=4s

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Rosenthal?

  We'll see you next time. Ooh, let me retake that.

• 0:07David Rosenthal?

  That might be our teaser quote. I sounded terrible.

• 0:21Ben Gilbert?

  Welcome to season seven, episode one of Acquired, the podcast about great technology companies and the stories behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert.

• 0:30David Rosenthal?

  I'm David Rosenthal.

• 0:32Ben Gilbert?

  And we are your hosts. Today, we are talking about, and I quote from their IPO prospectus, "An exemplification of a multi-dimensional space seamlessly integrating cyberspace and the physical space, a combination of Costco and Disneyland driven by distributed network of intelligence agents."

• 0:52David Rosenthal?

  Ben, it's like you're reading from my history and facts there.

• 0:57Ben Gilbert?

  I figured you would have pulled that, too. Unbelievable, like absolutely unfathomable. At first, I thought Costco and Disneyland was going to be the hook, and then I realized all the stuff around it is actually far more absurd. So listeners, of course, we are talking about the Chinese e-commerce company Pinduoduo. Now, why is this a fascinating company? Well, first off, it's only five years old, and they went public on the NASDAQ two years ago in 2018, three years into their existence. They are the fastest company ever to $100 billion market cap, and they've nearly tripled in value since the coronavirus spiked globally mid-March. So almost all of that market cap, or two-thirds of that market cap, created in the last few months.

• 1:38David Rosenthal?

  I think it must be the distributed network of intelligence agents that are doing that.

• 1:42Ben Gilbert?

  It's certainly the intelligence agents, yes. So now, you might be saying, well, Chinese e-commerce, I thought that was already sort of a settled frontier. I've heard of Alibaba, or at least...

• 1:51David Rosenthal?

  Maybe even JD.

• 1:52Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, and we haven't covered JD yet on the show, but also an e-commerce powerhouse in China. Well, apparently, there was an opportunity remaining. There was a missing segment that was not being addressed by either of those two companies, and it is enormous. This episode felt very timely, not Just because of that $100 billion milestone for Pinduoduo, but also because e-commerce in general is having a moment, as they say. So the global pandemic has massively accelerated the shift from offline to online commerce, as I'm sure all of you are experiencing in one way, shape or form, at least as consumers.

• 2:29David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, hopefully you're Amazon shareholders.

• 2:32Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, no kidding. Or Seattle residents and benefiting from all the side effects of that. And of course, China, once behind the US in their e-commerce penetration, I think it was only 6% of retail was done online in 2012, is now already at 24% of the total retail spend. A lot of that accelerated here in the last few months, much like the US penetration, which is really driving this crazy run-up in valuation for Pinduoduo. So I do want to give a shout out to Ho Nam in the Slack, who inspired us to do the episode with this comment. $100 billion market cap in five years from a standing start. This is just nuts. It took Microsoft 25 years,

• 3:16Ben Gilbert?

  Google and Facebook more than 12 years, and even for their closest competitor Alibaba, it took 14 years. And so it just felt like the stars were aligning to do this episode. The more I dug into it, the more I was frankly shook by what this company looks like. Really, all I knew about this before was their name. It's been fun spending the week kind of doing research and learning what is this beast.

• 3:41David Rosenthal?

  Like every story we tell here on Acquired, like you start thinking it's one thing and then you dig a little deeper and you're like, oh, man, wow, there are so many layers to this onion.

• 3:49Ben Gilbert?

  Well, a few announcements before we get to it. So a huge thank you to everyone who took our survey at the end of last season. So entries are now closed. As for the winners, we emailed you if you are one of the lucky 10 to win the year subscription to the LP program. And the winner of our AirPods is Amy L. from the Bay Area. So congratulations, Amy, and we will also be sending you an email to follow up after this. As always, if you love Acquired and want more, you should become an Acquired Limited Partner. Our most recent episode was with Benchmark General Partner Sarah Tavell, part of our VC Fundamentals series, and she joined us to talk about the fundamentals of consumer investing. If you want to join, you can get access to that additional content, plus our book club and our monthly LP calls on Zoom.

• 4:32Ben Gilbert?

  You can click the link in the show notes or go to glow.fm/acquired and all subscriptions come with a seven day free trial. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to tell you about a longtime friend of the show, Vanta. AI has scrambled the whole security picture. It used to be that you proved that you were secure once a year on audit or a static PDF. Then everyone would nod and you're done. But in an AI-first world, that doesn't hold up anymore.

• 4:59David Rosenthal?

  Yep. Your risk surface changes every week now. A vendor turns on an AI feature or someone writes in a new model without telling IT and your posture is different than it was last week, let alone at your last audit. Vanta's own research found that around 70% of companies have this quote unquote "shadow AI" running with no security review at all.

• 5:20Ben Gilbert?

  Right. And that's where Vanta comes in. They're the leading agentic trust platform, meaning they've built the thing that closes the gap. And the way that they close that gap is Vanta Agent. Think of it as a GRC engineer, that's Governance, Risk and Compliance, except that it's software and it doesn't sleep. It finds the issues, drafts the fixes and cuts the time that you'd spend on vendor assessments in half.

• 5:42David Rosenthal?

  In half, which is exactly why more than 16,000 companies today run on Vanta. Companies like Ramp, Cursor and Snowflake all stay audit-ready and catch the risks that crop up between audits across every vendor, every AI tool, the whole environment.

• 6:00Ben Gilbert?

  And that's the real value. Trust has to be continuous now, which is why Vanta automates your security, your compliance and the work to earn and prove trust. We're huge fans of Vanta over here and literally hundreds of Acquired listeners have become Vanta customers at their companies over the years. So you can get $1,000 off Vanta at vanta.com/acquired. That's V A N T A dot com slash acquired for $1,000 off and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. And now, over to you, David, to take us into the story of Pinduoduo.

• 6:32David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. Well, Ben, you stole some of my thunder. You know, we've talked about on the show, Ben and I don't compare notes before we record so that we keep our, you know, reactions authentic.

• 6:42Ben Gilbert?

  Church and state and all that.

• 6:43David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, exactly. So my lead in was gonna be that quote from the IPO prospectus of the Disneyland and Costco and the distributed intelligence agents. What is going on?

• 6:53Ben Gilbert?

  Well, I mean, at least it validates, like, we're on the same wavelength here, that that actually was the interesting bit to pull out if we both pulled it out. I definitely think there could be a lead in here, too, that's like, what if you had a gaming company that got smashed together with a company that sold fruit to try to make e-commerce fun and then you could shop and buy stuff with your friends? Like, what if?

• 7:14David Rosenthal?

  What if? It's funny you mention gaming. So the other thought I want to put in everybody's minds before we dive into the story is, of course, the largest and most important gaming company in the world and strategic player in it seems about just about every market these days, Tencent. So if you remember back from our old Tencent episode, which I went back and listened to before, before recording this.

• 7:39Ben Gilbert?

  It's like navel gazing research.

• 7:40David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, seriously. We've now reached the point where our, one of our sources for acquired is acquired. Tencent, if you recall from that episode, they are in many ways in such a dominant position, not just in China, but around the world as the owner and operator of WeChat, which is the dominant social platform in China, but also major shareholders in Epic Games, which makes Fortnite. They're one of the largest shareholders in Tesla. They own League of Legends, major shareholder in Snap and Didi and Meituan Dianping. But I think you could make an argument that there now, I think it's, I think it's about 17% ownership that they have in Pinduoduo is maybe their most important stake in the whole portfolio. Cause if you recall from back our old episode,

• 8:25David Rosenthal?

  what were their weaknesses? The flanks that were exposed for Tencent were to ByteDance, most specifically in terms of its social dominance.

• 8:34Ben Gilbert?

  Who of course makes TikTok.

• 8:36David Rosenthal?

  Of course makes TikTok and Tootiao, but also Alibaba and Alibaba's massive Alipay and financial platforms in China. And so if you rewind back to, say, 2015, 2016, 2017, these are major things that are on Tencent's mind.

• 8:55David Rosenthal?

  Right as the magical unicorn, Decacorn, Centicorn, Pinduoduo is being birthed. So keep that in mind as we go. Okay, so let's start as we always do with the founder, Colin Huang. He was born in Hangzhou in 1980, Hangzhou, China. His parents were factory workers. Neither of them finished junior high school, so they were, you know, not even like, maybe sort of on the, on the, just on the fringes of the establishing China middle class at this point in time, but kind of just barely hanging on. Again, also long time listeners and China tech fans might be smiling here because, of course,

• 9:40David Rosenthal?

  what other very famous China tech entrepreneur was born in Hangzhou to lower middle-class parents a generation earlier? That would be Jack Ma, of course, founder of Alibaba. The parallels are going to be quite apt here.

• 9:55Ben Gilbert?

  You mentioned the generations. For folks that haven't listened to any of our sort of China series before, the way to think about sort of China tech companies is, of course, there's the big three from the previous generation of Baidu, Alibaba, and Tencent. They sort of controlled the ecosystem. They were the kingmakers. They were not only your Google and Facebooks, but also your, you know, benchmark and Sequoias. They were both the VC and the sort of Fang powerhouse of China. The companies that we've sort of been seeing this generation, Xiaomei, Pinduoduo, are the ones that are sort of rising up to become the next generation. And you can see those big three then fighting to participate in the success of this next generation.

• 10:33David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, it's such an interesting, different ecosystem from US tech. So when Colin was in junior high, he loves math, like really loves math, and he must have been quite good at it because he participates in a national math Olympiad, which, you know, they have contests like this in the US. I remember doing this when I was growing up, but like in China, this is like a really big deal. And he ends up winning a medal in this Olympiad. And one of the other prizes for how he placed in the, in the competition was he gets an entrance exam ticket. To apply to the Huangzhou Foreign Language School. And now initially Colin is like, yeah, I'm not that interested. I mean, like, English, like, fine languages. I really just care about math and physics.

• 11:18David Rosenthal?

  And his parents are like, no, no, no, you gotta, you gotta go take this exam. Because it turns out it's not just a foreign language. It goes school in Huangzhou. It is one of the very best schools in all of China and one of the most prestigious prep schools. It's a public school, but prep schools in the country. He ends up taking the entrance exams. He does well. He must have done incredibly well because he's still on the fence about going to the school. The president of the school calls him up personally as like, I think he was probably a sixth grader at this point in time to convince him to come enroll in the school. So he does go, he does very well. He ends up going to the also very prestigious Jiejiang University, where he studies computer science.

• 12:00David Rosenthal?

  He interns while he's there at Microsoft in Beijing. This is kind of crazy. He makes more in apparently, he, because it says in the interview, he makes more in his summer interning at Microsoft in Beijing than his parents do in a year working in the factory. Then later, I don't know if this was while he was in undergrad or when he was in grad school. He also interns at Microsoft in the US in Redmond. And he makes eight times what he made that summer in China in the US. So, you know, here's this kid, you know, unlike Jack Ma, who, you know, stayed in Huangzhou, was like, was, was super fascinated with English in America, worked as a translator and a tour guide, but didn't get good grades, stayed there until his 30s.

• 12:44David Rosenthal?

  Here's Colin, he couldn't care less about English in America. He just wants to code, but he comes and he makes tons of money.

• 12:50Ben Gilbert?

  In the years that he was there, those sort of early 2000s, he would have been early enough in the Microsoft internship program, where he would get to do the thing at Bill Gates's house and go to the barbecue and meet Bill personally. When I interned, it was like 1,500 interns per summer or something by the time I got through. So that was no longer a part of the program. But yeah, that was the major perk of being an intern then.

• 13:12David Rosenthal?

  Ah, interesting. Well, this definitely feeds into a theme with young Colin of when he's in college. The legend has it, this is impossible to verify, but also echoes another super famous China tech founder Pony Ma. Apparently Colin's hanging out on the internet. Famous NetEase founder William Ding posts online in a forum looking for help with a with a technical problem that he's, you know, working on. This is how the legend goes. Colin responds to this, starts interacting with Ding and they kind of become friends. Ding takes a liking to him and becomes a mentor. Ding eventually introduces Colin to an even more famous China tech entrepreneur,

• 13:57David Rosenthal?

  BBK Electronics founder, and also I believe one of the founders of NetEase, Duan Yangping. He would go on to found Oppo and OnePlus and like lots of big, big, big, modern Chinese technology companies.

• 14:10Ben Gilbert?

  So he's got some like heavy hitting mentors.

• 14:12David Rosenthal?

  Super heavy hitting mentors, even when he's a college student back in China. After he graduates, probably on the encouragement of these mentors, they encourage him to come over to the US and do grad school in computer science at the US. So he goes, Ben, you're gonna hate this, but he goes to the University of Wisconsin at Madison for grad school.

• 14:31Ben Gilbert?

  That's fine. As long as it's not Michigan. That's great. Go Big Ten.

• 14:33David Rosenthal?

  Great. Okay, great. Big Ten. There we go.

• 14:37David Rosenthal?

  While he's there doing his masters in CS at Madison, he continues to intern at Microsoft. Microsoft desperately wants him to come back full time when he graduates. But William tells him, hey, you know, you've spent a lot of time at Microsoft. You've gotten the experience there. You've got a pretty good network. It might be a better idea. I think you should check out this little startup down in Mountain View. They're doing more interesting things. It's called Google. Maybe you should see if you can apply there and get a competing offer.

• 15:09Ben Gilbert?

  He just keeps hitting the lottery over and over and over again. And I don't say that to imply luck, but like, he finds his way to the right place, right time, over and over again here.

• 15:18David Rosenthal?

  Totally. So he shows up, of course, he gets an offer from Google. He graduates from Madison in 2004, shows up that summer, six months before the Google IPO. He's one of the first couple hundred employees at Google. He starts as an engineer and then pretty quickly switches to being a product manager. The company goes public, he makes a ton of money already. It's like he's just making money without even trying. This is the theme of his life.

• 15:45Ben Gilbert?

  We'll get there.

• 15:46David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, we'll definitely get there. Two years later, after joining in 2006, he does so well, he gets put on a secret team at Google. He's one of two people leading the team for secret plans to launch Google in China. Do you remember this, Ben? This was like a huge effort.

• 16:02Ben Gilbert?

  No.

• 16:03David Rosenthal?

  We actually did a case study on this in business school, where Google put all this effort into building a Chinese version of of Google. It was all ready to launch, and then they decided not to do it because they would have had to censor the results. And this was all like tied up with the, you know, don't be evil.

• 16:23Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, I certainly remember that. I didn't realize it never launched. I thought it launched and shut down, but it never launched.

• 16:29David Rosenthal?

  That's actually a good question. If it did launch, then they shut it down, but it was a big public brouhaha.

• 16:34Ben Gilbert?

  And to this day, there's no Google search in China, right?

• 16:37David Rosenthal?

  Yep, only in Hong Kong.

• 16:38Ben Gilbert?

  Wild. There really are and continue to be dividing two internets.

• 16:43David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. I mean, and this is like, talk about skipping ahead to what would have happened otherwise. The Great Firewall was not totally in place yet at this point. Like, if history had turned differently and Google had done this, like, so much could be different about China tech, US tech, the global internet. But alas, it didn't. As a result, Colin ended up leaving Google to go become an entrepreneur on his own, right? Which was probably a really good idea. But before we get to that, there's this amazing, I texted Ben this photo. This is like, the most amazing find in the research.

• 17:16Ben Gilbert?

  And from looking at what you texted me, were you like, did you find it in a YouTube video? Because I see like the YouTube bar or the bot. Okay.

• 17:22David Rosenthal?

  Yes, I found it in a YouTube video. We'll see if we can find whatever website it's on, it's on on the internet and link to it in the show notes. Also in 2006, so Duan, remember we said one of Colin's other mentors, he bids on and wins the auction for the annual lunch with Warren Buffett in 2006. And who does he bring with him as a guest? He brings Colin. This is crazy. And so there's this picture, we'll find some way to link to it. There's this amazing picture of Colin and Warren Buffett. Warren's got his arm around him. They're sitting at a table in Omaha, having lunch, and it's just incredible.

• 18:04Ben Gilbert?

  It looks like they both had a glass of red wine.

• 18:06David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, there's definitely a wine bottle in front of them. I think Duan paid over $600,000 for the lunch. So for that price, he should get a pretty good bottle of wine.

• 18:16Ben Gilbert?

  So within that couple of years span, we speculate he met Bill Gates. He definitely met Warren Buffett. We can see the photo with his arm around him. His mentors were Duan Yongping and Pony Ma, or at least he sort of interacted with them, certainly interacted with Pony and had Duan as a mentor, like-

• 18:33David Rosenthal?

  Yep, and William Deng.

• 18:34Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. He's just like going down the list of people who have over 10 billion in net worth.

• 18:39David Rosenthal?

  I know. It's, uh, it's pretty, pretty incredible. Again, like for somebody who, you know, his parents never finished junior high school. That's crazy. I mean, these are the types of things that were happening in, in China during this time. It's just this hugely rapid modernization of the country and opening up of the, of capitalism. Okay. So back to Colin's entrepreneurial journey. So it's now 2007. He's just left Google. And like, you know, many talented young folks leaving Google and other successful internet companies in these days, he wants to become an entrepreneur. He wants to start a company. And specifically, he wants to start an e-commerce company to capitalize on this trend of, you know, rising incomes and the emergence of the middle class

• 19:23David Rosenthal?

  in China and accompanying rising consumption. Hmm, interesting. Okay, this seems like a theme that's going to recur. So it's not yet been do-ed. This is 2007.

• 19:33Ben Gilbert?

  And Pinduoduo 2015.

• 19:35David Rosenthal?

  Yep, exactly. He starts a company called OuKu.com, O-U-K-U. And it's an online retailer. They sell electronics and other goods on there. It does pretty well. He sells it within three years. And then he says, you know, just like my mentors, I'm going to become a serial entrepreneur here and start starting and funding multiple companies. So the next company he starts is called Lequi, L-E-Q-I. And that helped, the idea was they were going to help bring foreign brands, non-domestic, non-China brands, online in China and help them market and sell on the leading e-commerce platforms of the day.

• 20:18David Rosenthal?

  Taobao, Tmall, which is obviously part of Alibaba, and JD.com. Okay, also interesting. So here's, here's Colin. He's got his e-commerce experience. He's got his Google experience. He's now learning about his future competitors.

• 20:32Ben Gilbert?

  And we should underscore something that's going to be an important point that we keep revisiting. When you say Taobao and Tmall, those are products by Alibaba. So Alibaba, you know, started in this B2B e-commerce and then got into consumer e-commerce, where they were selling directly to consumers in China with Tmall, which is, think about it like a mall with really high-end brands and they wanted to keep that in its own separate ecosystem. And Taobao, and Taobao is more like the eBay. Does that seem like the right comp to you?

• 21:02David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, that seems right. I mean, I would say like, at this point in time, Alibaba's various properties are sort of, the equivalent is Amazon plus eBay rolled together in China. We're now in, you know, probably 2012 timeframe. And people are starting to think, people are talking about Alibaba going public, which they would in, was it 2014? I think, and it was the largest IPO of all time.

• 21:28Ben Gilbert?

  Largest IPO, yeah.

• 21:29David Rosenthal?

  Yep. People think, oh yeah, like they've won. They are the monopoly. And you think e-commerce, you think China, you think Alibaba. And JD's emerging, they're a number two, but they're the winner, so much so that even Colin is like, yeah, I'm going to start a company. On their platform to help people sell on Alibaba. But he doesn't stop there. He also, at this point in time, mobile and social gaming are a big thing. And Tencent has just launched WeChat. Of course, they've had QQ, which was the desktop messenger platform and that was deeply embedded in the gaming ecosystem for a long time. They've just launched WeChat on mobile. Mobile gaming is a thing.

• 22:09David Rosenthal?

  He says, I'm also gonna start a mobile gaming studio where we're gonna start churning out some mobile social games on the back of this new emerging WeChat platform. Okay, okay, interesting. Here we go. So maybe we're not quite yet at Costco and Disneyland, but you can see the forces starting to swirl around here. All these things are running in parallel. Colin, again, given his background, his mentors, he's looking for a big grand slam home run. None of them, it becomes clear, none of them are really gonna, on their own, achieve that mega, mega success. But he knows he's on to some big trends with each of them.

• 22:51David Rosenthal?

  And he starts feeling like, huh, maybe, maybe there's some kind of opportunity to bring all of these things together, an intersection of these trends. And if we could do that, I actually have the right team, all of these people. It's the same people, even going back to his first company, who, same engineering team, same co-founders, who are working on all of these different products. We know how to do it. We have all of these skills in-house, from social gaming to e-commerce, deep knowledge of Alibaba and JD. Hmm, okay, what could we do together?

• 23:26Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, and he's like your classic serial entrepreneur. And he's really, you know, he's assembled the band. He just doesn't exactly know what the company is gonna be in all these different attempts. And I think a few of them are running sort of in parallel. So he has multiple people sort of cut up into different teams to work on stuff that kind of overlaps.

• 23:42David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, it's almost like he started a startup studio.

• 23:47David Rosenthal?

  Before it was cool. So in 2015, he says, all right, in this studio type environment we have, let's do this. Let's, let's start a company. So they launch a new company called Pin Hao Hu, I think is how you pronounce it.

• 24:00Ben Gilbert?

  Again, neither of us are native speakers. We're going to do our best here, but Pin Hao Hu.

• 24:05David Rosenthal?

  Which roughly translates as Pin means doing something together and Hao Hu means good goods. So like getting good goods together. And the idea, this is kind of crazy and super creative. It must've been from the social gaming world, you know, Farmville is huge at this point in time. The idea is kind of like real world Farmville. He thinks that rural agriculture, you know, the Chinese agriculture and produce market isn't anything like the US or Europe or many other countries where there are large co-ops of, of farmers and agricultural producers. It's much more lots of individual rural farmers. He thinks there's maybe an opportunity to use

• 24:49David Rosenthal?

  the internet and particularly mobile buying and ordering to have supply meet demand directly for these rural farmers. And the idea is that if they can get this to work, A, this is something that Alibaba and JD aren't equipped to go anywhere near. But if they can do it, this is a huge category of groceries essentially, like produce and repeat purchase is going to be super high. They can use all their tricks from the gaming world to drive, you know, user acquisition, to drive repeat purchases. And they think this could really work. So as an MVP, remember there-

• 25:26Ben Gilbert?

  You know, the other good thing about selling groceries or effectively selling sort of fruits is the risk is low relative to you look around at the time JD and Alibaba's properties, like you trust those brands when you're going to go buy an iPhone or something like that. But there's this new startup, like you kind of need a cheap thing to sell so that if your site's a little premature and doesn't look totally trustworthy, like it has to be a small investment. And fruits and vegetables are a great thing to sell because if it doesn't work out, like that's okay, I have other options. It wasn't that much money anyway.

• 25:59David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, I mean, this stuff is a couple pounds of fruit for like five RMB, which equates to less than a dollar. So it's funny you say site, Ben. There's definitely no site for this. There's not even an app. So remember in the mobile gaming side of the house, they'd realized the power of WeChat and how important that was as an acquisition vehicle for games. They thought, you know, hey, to get going, what if we just don't even do an app? What if we just kind of like operate on WeChat, which all these rural farmers, you know, they have phones now. They have smartphones. They have WeChat on their phones. We'll just communicate with them via WeChat, send them some orders and stuff and buy from them.

• 26:40David Rosenthal?

  And we can pay with WeChat Pay and then we'll also just kind of chat with the consumers who are buying the fruit on the other end and take payment from them via WeChat Pay. Okay, like this seems like a good MVP until we can buy some time and buy an app. Well, it starts to work. By mid 2015, they raise some venture capital and fully launch the company and the model's really interesting. So we're definitely still not yet at Pinduoduo and the magic that makes that work.

• 27:07Ben Gilbert?

  They're also a first party retailer. So unlike, if you think about sort of the two models that Amazon has where there's Amazon retail and then Amazon third party sellers, the model with Pinn Hua is that they're the Amazon retailer. You're buying directly from them. You don't really know who the farmer is on the backend. It's your classic retail model of the retailer buys it from the wholesaler, keeps the inventory, has that tough business model, especially when the goods are spoiling and then sells it to the consumer. I have to suspect they learned some lessons in the trickiness of holding inventory that would lead them to later embrace the marketplace.

• 27:44David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, totally. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. They're a retailer in this model, which is interesting, you know, given Colin comes from the e-commerce background. It's probably that was what was natural to him. That's what his first company was, was retailer. And that's why they thought to do it this way, but it turned out there was a better way. So Pien Hau Hua is doing really well. They've raised venture capital. It's an exciting business and clearly they've hit on a good wedge into the e-commerce market with produce and agriculture. But of course, their ambitions and Colin's ambitions are much bigger than that. They start thinking about what other categories can we go into next and build on this foothold?

• 28:24David Rosenthal?

  And you know, eventually, maybe we can start to compete with Alibaba and JD eventually. Eventually being like six months from now, as we'll see. So what did they do? He's like, oh yeah, well, I got this gaming studio, you know, incubator that I have. Let's just have the team spin up some, some MVP type stuff in some other categories. Okay, great. What's the easiest way to do that? You know, like being a retailer, you know, we did this MVP with Pien Hau Hua, but that was kind of hard. You know, we built a bunch of infrastructure and certainly requires cash. What if we just, you know, we're really just trying to learn here. Let's just do it as a marketplace. So we won't take inventory. We won't even really take much of a cut on the transaction.

• 29:07David Rosenthal?

  We'll make it super, super small, like less than 1% of the transaction we'll take as a cut for our marketplace fee. You know, which is different. Like I think Amazon takes, what does Amazon take?

• 29:18Ben Gilbert?

  30%.

• 29:19David Rosenthal?

  30% on their marketplace and even Alibaba and JD are taking, you know, 10 to 30%.

• 29:25Ben Gilbert?

  JD is very close. JD's 28% of GMV is recognized as net revenue, so revenue to the marketplace. And I think Tmall and Taobao are like 5%, but still like meaningfully higher.

• 29:36David Rosenthal?

  Still meaningfully, yeah, five times higher. So like, okay, great.

• 29:40Ben Gilbert?

  So they settle here on like 0.6%.

• 29:42David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, 0.6%. Tiny, tiny little take rate. Again, because they just want to learn what sells. So they launched this thing and they're like, oh, what are we going to call it? You know, it's also mostly running on WeChat. We like the Pien, you know, the doing things together. Let's call it Pien Duo Duo. Together, more savings and more fun. Seems, seems fine. We'll go with that.

• 30:00Ben Gilbert?

  And interestingly, this is a different company. They started as a separate entity, also registered to Colin. It sets the table for who's this Colin guy and how does he have these two companies? And I'm sorry, is it, is it fruit? Is it gaming or is it marketplace for goods?

• 30:17David Rosenthal?

  Yes. The answer to that.

• 30:22David Rosenthal?

  So shocker, they launched this thing and it works even better than Pienho Hua. It works so well, they end up raising some money for it independently at this separate entity from some of the same investors. This is in 2015 and then in 2016, it's growing so fast. Literally by the end of 2016, they would do $70 million in revenue, not GMV revenue, with their tiny take rate with this marketplace. Then in September of 2016, they merged the companies into it's now one company. It's all the same team that have been working on these things called Pinduoduo. And then in the beginning of 2017, they fully transition out of the old retailer model

• 31:04David Rosenthal?

  of PHH and fully into the marketplace model of PDD.

• 31:08Ben Gilbert?

  Two things to say here. One is a meta point about this episode. Since most of our audience is Western, we've converted everything to US dollars to sort of make it easier to understand. The other thing is David, we should not gloss over, and it just did really well. And boom, they got to 70 million in revenue in the first year. Like, how?

• 31:29David Rosenthal?

  How did that?

• 31:30Ben Gilbert?

  Did that happen?

• 31:31David Rosenthal?

  Happen? Yes. That is a very good question, Ben. Well, let's dive into that. It's not just that Pinduoduo is a marketplace with a low take rate for good. So like that in and of itself sure is an advantage versus the incumbents. But like they can slash their take rates too. Also, who's going to trust Pinduoduo to, you know, like you were saying earlier, Ben, like there's some upstart, you know, what are you going to buy an iPhone on this thing? And be the-

• 32:00Ben Gilbert?

  Also, like, I'm not going to attract any retailers just by having a low take rate. Like, Amazon is currently Amazon. So if I start Amazon too with a 0.6% take rate, I'm not going to get, I don't know, Adidas to come and retail shoes on my little thing with a low take rate just because it has a low take rate. Like, I have no audience, I have no distribution, I have no ability to actually pull it off.

• 32:20David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, we could talk to Hamilton Helmer here. It turns out there's a thing called two-sided network effects where like you have a bunch of buyers, it attracts a bunch of sellers, which attracts some more buyers and boom, that's actually defensible.

• 32:31Ben Gilbert?

  So are you telling me then that they needed to find a novel way to attract a bunch of buyers?

• 32:36David Rosenthal?

  That might be a way to enter the market. So remember, they have all this gaming DNA. So they come up with this concept for Pinduoduo that they call team buying. Now, this isn't new. I mean, this was in many ways, at least marketed as the core concept of Groupon. Like, oh, lots of people buy this thing together and then you'll get a lower price. Yeah, but that's kind of not really what Groupon was. It was, is, it was a deal site.

• 33:10Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, we have all this crap that wasn't already selling. And so, uh, will you come take it off our hands if we lower the price enough? And actually, over time, we're just going to phase out that group mechanic anyway.

• 33:19David Rosenthal?

  I remember buying things at Groupon and still if you go, I assume if you go buy on the site today, you're just buying the thing. Like you're an individual consumer. Groupon puts something in front of you. You're buying it. Full stop. That's it. Pinduoduo is pretty different from that and team buying is pretty different than that. So in the Pinduoduo experience, and this is the core mechanic that has gotten them to $100 billion market cap today, you see two prices for every item. One price is the individual price. So you can just buy something straight up for that price, get it, you know, tomorrow. They have, uh, just like all good internet companies and gaming companies. That button is like super faded washed out colors. Red is the color scheme for Pinduoduo.

• 34:01Ben Gilbert?

  It's like great anti-pattern for UI designers. Yeah.

• 34:04David Rosenthal?

  Exactly. It's like very soft pink. The text is not bolded. You really have to fight against every fiber of your being to click that button.

• 34:13Ben Gilbert?

  Are you sure? You want to cancel your subscription?

• 34:15David Rosenthal?

  No.

• 34:15Ben Gilbert?

  Yes.

• 34:17David Rosenthal?

  Right next to it, though, is a big, bright, saturated, bold red color of the team buying button, which also happens to be at a price that is typically about 40% lower than the individual buying button.

• 34:32Ben Gilbert?

  Which is interesting because that's set by the retailer. So the retailer, as a, I don't know if it's a contractual obligation, but like as a term of listing on Pinduoduo, you set two prices. There was the individual price and then the team buying price. And interestingly, I think it was something like the team size had to be like 20 people originally. If you could go get 20 people to come together, then you would have access. And I think the retailer would control this too. And say, if you bring 20 people, and then it became 10 people, now it's all the way down to two people. But this idea that if you can self-organize, if you can do some demand aggregation for us, then yeah, you get a break.

• 35:09David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, totally. And now, I don't know if this is how it was in the beginning, but now the retailer sets the team size, the minimum team size. I say retailer, I mean seller. We'll get into that in a minute. So what happens when you click that button? This is just genius. Because it all runs on WeChat's payment system, you are instantly charged that price, the team price, the minute you hit that button. And that dollar value gets transferred to Pinduoduo immediately. They get the money the second you hit that button. The transaction doesn't go through though. You have 24 hours to hit the minimum team size. Now, there are two ways that you could hit the minimum team size to buy this item.

• 35:54David Rosenthal?

  You could, one, join an existing team that's out there. And Pinduoduo, right in the UI, surfaces a bunch of other people that are also trying to buy this app have also formed teams. You can join up on their teams. Seems pretty simple. Get the discount that way. Or if you want extra discounts, you can form your own team and you can recruit your own people to come in and join you. And it's all natively baked right into WeChat. So you can just super easy post this item that you're buying into your family, friends, whatever, WeChat group, or post it publicly on WeChat stories, whatever, and recruit people to come join you. And what is this kind of stuff?

• 36:35David Rosenthal?

  It's like, well, it's fruit, obviously, but it's also shoes. It's jeans. It's, I think, still the number one product category is, yeah, tissues. Like literally Kleenex. This is where, you know, the Costco part of the Costco and Disneyland analogy comes in.

• 36:52Ben Gilbert?

  It's essentials. Like who wouldn't want to be recruited into a group to buy something that you kind of have to buy anyway? And now you get to do it cheaper.

• 36:59David Rosenthal?

  Like, super cheap.

• 37:01Ben Gilbert?

  And it comes with the social proof of somebody you already know saying, hey, I'm doing this. I trust this system, so do it with me. And didn't they later launch features that if you get enough people, it's actually free for you? It's like a price cut or something?

• 37:13David Rosenthal?

  Price chop, price chop. So I think initially, the platform showed you a selection of products that you could try and attempt to get for free with the price chop. So it literally pays $0. It was getting people to sign up for Pinduoduo, like literally register accounts. And the brilliance of it, again, this all comes from the gaming world, was say you had like a hundred RMB product was sticker individual price. The first person you brought in for the price chop lowered it like 50%. Then the next person lowered it to, you know, 30 RMB. Then the next person, so it was like an asthmato that kept getting harder and harder to hit zero. If you didn't hit zero, nothing went through. Like you didn't get it for free. It's not that you got it for like the price. Say you got it down to five, you didn't get it for five.

• 37:57David Rosenthal?

  You gotta get it to zero or nothing.

• 37:58Ben Gilbert?

  It's like shooting the moon.

• 37:59David Rosenthal?

  It's like shooting the moon, but all those people you just onboarded on to Pinduoduo.

• 38:06Ben Gilbert?

  So these are like effectively the greatest growth hacks of all time. To be able to grow a platform as fast as they did and the exact correct incentives with the exact minimal amount of friction doing it on WeChat to just get a crap ton of users super fast to come and join the platform. And not just join the platform, but actually transact.

• 38:28David Rosenthal?

  Actually transact. And there's one more piece to making this all work that really could not, I mean, not being nearly a expert China tech watcher, I was actually really surprised doing the research that this was possible in 2015, 2016, because it's not even possible in the US today. The third-party logistics networks in China are so mature and incredible and built out to an extent that PDD could do this without setting up any of their own logistics. So the way this worked, yeah, was, you know, these transactions were happening in this gamified mechanic that PDD was facilitating. And then they would have

• 39:09David Rosenthal?

  The merchant, it would be on the merchants, even these like rural farmers to take care of delivery and logistics. You know, there's tons and tons of delivery, both last mile and up above the last mile, delivery networks and competition in China, that that was actually doable, like from your phone.

• 39:25Ben Gilbert?

  Oh, yeah. I read something about this and they're all sort of API driven. So they would basically bid out who could come and take the, the shipment the cheapest and it would all be done sort of programmatically.

• 39:36David Rosenthal?

  Well, so now I think this is what Pinduoduo does. They've invested a lot of tech in building this out. Kind of like, um, you could almost think of it like Shopify's fulfillment solutions now where Shopify is not doing the fulfillment themselves, but they've built out all these APIs to manage it. Pinduoduo has built that out now. But in the early days, like they weren't even doing that. It was literally just like, hey, farmers, hey, manufacturers, hey, whatever. Yeah, it's on you. Get this to consumers. And by the way, you should probably do that within seven days or you're gonna.

• 40:03Ben Gilbert?

  Oh, fascinating.

• 40:04David Rosenthal?

  Points in the algorithm.

• 40:05Ben Gilbert?

  That's really interesting. I hadn't realized this as much. I guess this makes, I was thinking there were sort of two pillars, but I guess there's three pillars of areas where China is just way ahead here. So the first one there being distribution, the second one being something we've talked about in group buying and sort of social commerce. Social e-commerce doesn't exist in the US. There's like some Shopify plugins that will show you like so and so just bought this on this website to make you feel like, hey, people are actually buying stuff. So I should buy stuff too. But there's not a, you know, multi-billion dollar company that's sort of made it work and made it an effective mechanism. And you have to imagine it will, and you have to imagine that coronavirus will accelerate that because, you know, shopping used to be a thing that we did for fun and now it's not because we can't go shopping with our friends and.

• 40:49David Rosenthal?

  It's, let's return to that in a minute. I think there's a structural reason why this is going to be tough in the US in a way that it wasn't in China.

• 40:57Ben Gilbert?

  Hold that then, because I want to talk about that. But the third being the advancement of WeChat Pay and Alipay are so far superior to the payment mechanisms and money transfer mechanisms that we have here in the US because of the entrenched interests of the big banks, where we are stuck on not just old technology, but like just old thinking about how long money takes to clear and

• 41:23David Rosenthal?

  Costs associated with doing so.

• 41:24Ben Gilbert?

  Incredible fees associated with transferring money that like the speed and lack of friction and lack of fees that money can sort of move around these ecosystems in China is just far superior to the debit rails here, the ACH rails here, the wires. It's just, it's, it's almost crookery, the way that you look at how far stuck in the past we are in that industry here.

• 41:47David Rosenthal?

  Yeah.

• 41:48Ben Gilbert?

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• 42:02David Rosenthal?

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• 42:16Ben Gilbert?

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• 42:26David Rosenthal?

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• 42:43Ben Gilbert?

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• 43:00David Rosenthal?

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• 43:16Ben Gilbert?

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• 43:25David Rosenthal?

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• 43:36Ben Gilbert?

  Talk to me about why the social thing won't work in the US.

• 43:38David Rosenthal?

  Okay, great. So we've alluded to this a bunch of times so far in the episode. Let's finally bring in Tencent and what's going on here. So like you said, Ben, the pillars to making this work are, well, A, there's some cultural stuff that group buying actually was kind of a phenomenon and offline in China already. So people are familiar with this. The logistics networks were mature enough to be able to do it. The financial networks were mature enough to be able to do this. But then there's social. Okay. Let's go back to Tencent and WeChat. We alluded to this, and if you go listen to our episode on Tencent, they made a major strategic decision with WeChat around this time that was very different

• 44:21David Rosenthal?

  than Facebook. Because I was thinking, doing research, I was like, I remember there were a bunch of social commerce companies that got started right around the time of the Facebook IPO. I remember looking at a bunch of Madrona. We almost invested in one. Thank goodness we didn't. We lost the deal, I remember, because the company went belly up. Because what happened was, these companies were doing the same thing that Pinduoduo did with WeChat, which is they were just leveraging the Facebook social graph to blast out. There was tons of creativity about what you were buying, broadcasting it to your friends. People were trying stuff like group buying.

• 44:57Ben Gilbert?

  It was like Blippi. There was like a social network around logging things that you bought. So like broadcasting things that you had already purchased that hit your credit card.

• 45:06David Rosenthal?

  Yep. Even stuff like, remember Fab.com?

• 45:10Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah.

• 45:10David Rosenthal?

  Which raised a ton of money and blamed out, you know, they were more of an email newsletter buying, but they were also leveraging, you know, the Facebook graph, the open Facebook graph. What happened was Facebook saw this going on right around the IPO. They wanted to goose commerce happening on the platform leading up to the IPO. But then they yanked the cord and they shut off all of this stuff and they killed, you know, you could still, you know, Facebook connect into anything these days, but they took all the juice out of the algorithm in the feed for any kind of stuff like this.

• 45:43Ben Gilbert?

  In the same way that they did for, for music, but Spotify had sort of already gotten enough distribution using, hey, well, here's what your friends are listening to. But of course they then stopped showing, here's what your friends are listening to in the Facebook news feed. And so no one could sort of catch Spotify. But what you're saying is no one had sort of leveraged the Facebook graph to get enough scale to become sort of a, I don't care if you shut it off, I'm already a winner. It was sort of like before they were over the hump.

• 46:10David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, well, you need ongoing, unlike Spotify, which is a subscription service, you need ongoing access to a social graph to do this. Like, I do think it's certainly a huge dependency and they have this in their IPO prospectus and ongoing filings for Pinduoduo is, is Tencent and WeChat. Like if Tencent did the same thing to them, like they'd be kneecapped unless they built their own social network graph, which they sort of have within the app, but not total yet. So why, why did Tencent and Facebook diverge here? What Facebook decided is they were like, oh, we're gonna monetize this thing via advertising, right? We effectively want to control the commerce and business flowing through our platform. We don't want to let anybody else do anything here.

• 46:53David Rosenthal?

  We want to make everybody pay a tax if you're gonna do this. Now, WeChat took a really different approach. One, I think because the advertising ecosystem in China in general wasn't as mature at this point in time. Like it was harder to monetize. There weren't as many advertisers. But also two, it was a messaging based ecosystem where advertising, you know, they do have advertising, but it's not as, doesn't make as much sense. They came up with Just a brilliant, different business model, which was, uh, okay, we'll actually let all these startups use our platform and build businesses on our platform. And then what we'll do, we have all the data, we can see what's working. We'll just pick the winners and we'll invest in them.

• 47:35David Rosenthal?

  We'll invest in them, we'll get equity in these companies. And then we can, you know, put our hand on the scale and tip like, give them strategic access to APIs, new features, like many programs, one might say, that some of their competitors won't have. And then this is what ends up making Pinduoduo.

• 47:53Ben Gilbert?

  And this is really the point to sort of draw that bright line of the difference between a platform and an aggregator. And for folks who read Strategery, I'm sure Ben has a much more eloquent definition than this, but you know, Facebook is your classic aggregator. They're aggregating the audience attention and then they're aggregating all of the advertisers and they're the choke point in the middle. And they charge the advertiser every time the advertiser wants to leech you off for a few minutes to do something on your site or app. Whereas with Tencent, they actually said, hey, WeChat is going to be a platform. People are going to be developing rich applications on top of this. And Facebook made a few different runs at being a platform, but ultimately being a platform and an aggregator were in conflict. They picked the aggregator advertising-based business.

• 48:36Ben Gilbert?

  They've basically thrown in the towel on really being a platform. Whereas Tencent has succeeded wildly, not just because being a platform is a good business, but probably more importantly, exactly what you're saying, David, is then they're going to observe what's taking off, pick winners and invest.

• 48:53David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, one thing I didn't even realize, this is almost a sidebar, but came up while doing the research. You know Tencent is one of the largest shareholders in Tesla. They bought a 5% stake in 2007, I think, 2017, sorry. Man, has that been a good investment in and of itself. But you might think like, well, that's just unrelated. That's just being a good investor deploying capital. Well, guess who has an official account at a mini program on WeChat? Tesla. And guess what you can do on it? You can find superchargers, you can browse and order a Tesla.

• 49:29Ben Gilbert?

  So they were watching the demand in China?

• 49:31David Rosenthal?

  Well, I don't know if they were watching the demand, but they've allowed Tesla to start to-

• 49:36Ben Gilbert?

  The other way around.

• 49:37David Rosenthal?

  Yeah.

• 49:37Ben Gilbert?

  Tesla can get better penetration in China.

• 49:40David Rosenthal?

  Yep.

• 49:40Ben Gilbert?

  Because they have proprietary access to different APIs and-

• 49:44David Rosenthal?

  Yep. Yep. So now for something like this, for something like Tesla, like, great, this is kind of icing on the cake. For something like this, this is literally the core of what makes it work. So there were competitors to Pinduoduo, there still are competitors to Pinduoduo. Once in February of 2017, Tencent decides to essentially king make Pinduoduo here in this category. And this is such a strategically important category to them, as we've discussed, they lead a $110 million Series B in Pinduoduo. This company, remember, is like a year, this is five, six months from the merger between PHH and PDD that they lead. Sequoia comes in as well as Sequoia China. So they give them a ton of capital, but they also give them wide open access

• 50:29David Rosenthal?

  to the platform, including this new critical feature that they've just launched on WeChat called mini programs.

• 50:38Ben Gilbert?

  And this is like, for folks who have never sort of paid attention to the China ecosystem before, it's not like in the US where the App Store is the place that you go to get access to software. In China, WeChat has really created an abstraction layer on top of the operating system where you open WeChat and then you decide what to do from inside WeChat. And these days, that's by going to a mini program.

• 51:01David Rosenthal?

  It's totally brilliant from like a technical and computer science standpoint. This completely obviates the need to develop and maintain rich apps across iOS and Android and all of the various other operating ecosystems within China and various flavors of China-only Android or Xiaomi and the like.

• 51:23Ben Gilbert?

  I don't think it totally obviates it. I think you do need to build special versions for each operating system, even if you're building a mini program, or at least hook into the native stuff on its own. But what it did do is make the operating system less important. And so the switching costs kind of go away, where you can switch between iPhone and Android more easily because, hey, you've got WeChat and all your mini programs, no matter what your hardware is.

• 51:46David Rosenthal?

  Yep, totally. And most of these companies, once they reach any scale, they do have native apps and WeChat mini programs. But in terms of customer acquisition, in terms of loyalty across platforms, it's huge. And so we'll try and link to this in the show notes as well. There's this amazing graph of looking at PDD and its competitors of how many users they have in their own app ecosystem versus in the WeChat mini program app ecosystem. PDD is the only one. They have 233 million users that interact primarily through the WeChat mini program, which is a fully featured Pinduoduo app. All the same features are in there as in the native app.

• 52:28Ben Gilbert?

  That's like the equivalent of two thirds of America, including children, are Pinduoduo users only through the mini program through WeChat.

• 52:37David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, they have another 144 million users that primarily interact with their own native apps.

• 52:44Ben Gilbert?

  Which is like four Twitters worth of users.

• 52:47David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, right. You compare that to Alibaba, you compare that to JD, you compare that to VIP shop. All of those other competitors, most of the users are on their own apps, A, and B, PDD has exponentially more users total in the WeChat ecosystem than any of their competitors. And for something like this, that is so natively social, that is such a huge advantage. Because remember, all of the buying traffic on the buyer's side of the marketplace is coming via these team purchases. It's funny, in their filings, year after year, they talk about how you can buy things individually, and then they say substantially all of our purchases happen via the team buying platform. Like, nobody

• 53:31David Rosenthal?

  buys the individual price.

• 53:34Ben Gilbert?

  Well, especially now that you can, it's almost silly to call it team buying, the fact that you only need a party of two and you can join a party of two with a stranger. It's like, you must have just clicked the wrong button or something if you didn't just join someone's existing party. And like, if you didn't feel like inviting your friends and making a big party of 10 or 20 or whatever, and you just need a party of two and somebody's already posted it, like, come on, is that really a team purchase?

• 53:58David Rosenthal?

  You're basically like, trying to pay more money.

• 54:01Ben Gilbert?

  Yes.

• 54:02David Rosenthal?

  So on the back of this, this is February 2017, when all this happens, the investment and the mini-program launch, from 2016 to 2017, Pinduoduo over three X's their revenue to $278 million. They fully transitioned to the marketplace model. They get out of the retailing business. And on the back of that, they file to go public. And then they do go public in June of 2018, less than three years after the initial launch of the company, and less than two years after the merger. Just incredible.

• 54:43Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah. And an important point that they make in this IPO prospectus is, not only did they grow like wildfire, but they hooked into a consumer category that all these other ones overlooked. So you think about the way China has different cities. There's tier one, two, three, and four. And so your tier one cities are the ones closest to the big commerce centers. Tier four cities are the ones sort of furthest out toward the most rural areas. And wealth goes down from one to four. Well, what Pinduoduo did was they were able to effectively reach people in tier three and tier four cities. And they were able to also reach a dramatically female audience. I think it's something like mostly

• 55:25Ben Gilbert?

  25 to 35 year old females in these tier three and four cities. So not a super high dollar amount per purchase, but for many of them, this is the first experience with e-commerce. And so Pinduoduo is their gateway for these customers into the e-commerce world. And their sort of bet is, look how fast we grew with these people. We're going to continue to grow quickly. And as they start to accumulate more buying power, they're going to be purchasing from us.

• 55:54David Rosenthal?

  That brings up a couple of great points that we haven't touched on yet. And this has kind of been one of the narratives around Pinduoduo for the last couple of years is bringing on these more rural users onto e-commerce, and that is definitely true. But there are a couple of interesting things about it, and I think were brilliant parts of the strategy. So remember where they started with produce and groceries and most of what the items that are being bought on this app are. They're everyday household essentials. You know, who's doing that? It's whoever's kind of managing the household. And in many cases, that's, that's women. And in many cases, that's women with children at home. So if you look at the demographics of the app, at least in the earlier days,

• 56:37David Rosenthal?

  it's now broadening and penetrating the whole economy. But I think about 70% of the users were women. The biggest age demographic was between 25 and 35. Yeah, it was all young mothers at home who were using this to like, save a lot of money on all their household purchases.

• 56:56Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. The other important thing that we haven't touched on yet is that it was browse centric, not search centric. So if you think about e-commerce, you know, for most of you who are buying stuff and listening to this show, you go to amazon.com, sorry, you go to smile.amazon.com to donate to your favorite charity. You type in the box exactly the product that you're thinking of. And absent there being a coronavirus going on, it's almost 100% chances there and ships to you. If not in one day, then in two. And like, the world is magical. Well, Pinduoduo's insight is, you know, we're going to feature stuff that people need, but we're not going to make it an intent-based system. We're just going to show people, you know, at first in a brute force way, over time, algorithmically,

• 57:40Ben Gilbert?

  things that we think they'd be interested in, things we think they might be out of, things we think their friends are buying and thus might influence them to buy. And it's basically a newsfeed of stuff that you can purchase, which is a totally different paradigm and allows them to get away with something that is, in my mind, a total narrative violation, which is long, to use the phrase, long shipping times.

• 58:04Ben Gilbert?

  So when you buy something on Pinduoduo, you didn't search for it. So it wasn't something you like immediately needed in that moment. It was something that sort of caught your eye and you're like, oh yeah, I'll take that. So they can get away with much cheaper shipping that takes much longer and have a totally different cost structure. This is sort of like very interesting to me as a startup investor. If you had pitched me in 2016 and said, hey, I'm going to create this e-commerce site. And it's going to take forever to ship. I'd be like, well, that's immediately out because the future is overnight shipping. Amazon has changed the world. In fact, Zulily in the US had the same insight. They at one point were a $6 billion independent retailer.

• 58:41David Rosenthal?

  Acquired by QVC.

• 58:42Ben Gilbert?

  QVC, yep, Seattle based. They had the same insight that if they just send out a browsable list of deals every morning, then they can get away with long shipping because nobody is intent based and nobody needs that thing that they were searching for immediately tomorrow. And I think the parallels to Zulily are actually interesting because it's a primarily female audience. It's mostly about the deals. But this linkage, and I think it was a very interesting insight that both companies had, Zulily and Pinduoduo, is when it's a browse based experience and it's not intent driven, you can get away with much cheaper, much longer shipping times.

• 59:16David Rosenthal?

  This brings up two related nuanced points on that. One, you know, and that Colin and Pinduoduo talk about a lot is the entertainment value of this. I think again, especially about this demographic, you know, this is the demographic that in a different age and place and time would have, you know, been watching Oprah, right? This is a lot of the same demographic that played and plays these mobile social games. And so this is essentially a mobile social game, except you're buying your household groceries with it. Super interesting. The other aspect, you know, you bring up the feed. This has a really important impact for the supply side of the marketplace. A, because they don't need as fantastic shipping and logistics times as you mentioned, Ben.

• 59:58David Rosenthal?

  But also just like TikTok, it means that there's much less entrenched success on the platform. And so new entrants on the seller side, especially via the team buying mechanic, can start breaking through and getting good volumes. Because it's all driven algorithmically by the feed that Pinduoduo is putting in front of users as opposed to, you know, the equivalent in social being the follow model on or subscribe model on YouTube or Twitter or whatnot. And then how TikTok really ended around that with the For You feed where anybody, any good content could break through. It's the same deal here.

• 1:00:36Ben Gilbert?

  Right. So the platform can be much more opinionated on where it drives its traffic. And that can be really, really good if you're a supplier on the platform. I mean, it's bad in the sense that you don't get to build that direct connection with audience. So it's less reliable. But when the, uh, the eye of, I don't know, what's the positive eye of Sauron?

• 1:00:53David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:00:54Ben Gilbert?

  When it looks favorably upon you, it can buy a whole bunch of stuff all at once.

• 1:00:57David Rosenthal?

  Think about Amazon. You're selling something, a commodity type good on Amazon. You've been on it for a long time. You have a certain scale. You have 10,000 reviews for your product. A new entrant wants to come in and compete with you in that same category. And they have two reviews. Who's going to get most of the purchases? That's not a problem on Pinduoduo. So on the supply side, who do they start attracting with all of this demand that they can channel? It's actually manufacturers themselves. We alluded to this earlier in the episode. What they end up doing, and I think part of what makes the economics of this whole thing work, is it's not distributors, it's not retailers, it's not the traditional

• 1:01:38David Rosenthal?

  people who are going to sell on Alibaba and JD, who are successful on Pinduoduo. It's the actual factories and manufacturers themselves. They now don't need any branding, distribution, anything like that. They can just go direct onto PDD, even though they have no brand and know that it's gonna work. And so that, I think, is a big collapsing of the value chain that they've been able to accomplish.

• 1:02:06Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, 100%. I have to pull forward a tech theme now because we're talking so directly about it. I think like one of the big takeaways from this whole thing is that they successfully disintermediated both traditional retailers and brands. So by not only being entirely internet based, but also social network based, they were able to bring that scale of buyers, of demand directly to the brand, which is normally the job to be done by that retailer. So the brand can sort of sell in big chunks to the, you know, their wholesalers and then it can get chunked down smaller and smaller from there. So that the social buying model takes that sort of aggregation of demand and totally eliminates the job to be done by a retailer. It allows for much cheaper prices because they cut out that middleman. But then Pinduoduo

• 1:02:51Ben Gilbert?

  takes it even one step further because on top of that, they created a marketplace that at least so far, hasn't cared that much about brands and is starting to this year. But because they sell basically household commodity things, that means an individual manufacturer can just list a huge quantity of one thing that they make, not a brand that, you know, that has to have a suite of products and builds that relationship with the customer at a time and invest in all this marketing. So like they can drive the price down so far because they get rid of the retailer, because all the demand can be aggregated on its own through the group buying. And then they also get rid of the brand and just say, hey, buy this unbranded thing from this retailer and boom, it sells out.

• 1:03:30David Rosenthal?

  And I think in the early days, especially a lot of the supply on the platform was actually coming directly from manufacturing lines of manufacturers that just had excess capacity for stuff. Like they weren't booked up enough by whoever they're, these contract manufacturers, by whoever was using them. So they had some excess capacity. So Pinduoduo started going to them and they've, they've now labeled this whole practice C2M, consumer to manufacturer. They started going to these contract manufacturers and saying, hey, we think we can generate a lot of demand for tissues, for jeans, for raincoats, for umbrellas, whatever.

• 1:04:07Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah. Don't they pre-sell stuff sometimes too? Like they even do generate the demand, take the payments and then I think they go to the manufacturers after that and say, we know you can make this, just make it.

• 1:04:17David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, just make it. That's funny. They may start doing this. And so they go to the manufacturers and they're like, yep, we're pretty sure like you just use your excess capacity on the line, make this stuff. We're pretty much guaranteed you're going to move it.

• 1:04:28Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah. Okay, so this is the positive scenario of that. The negative scenario is, and the rip on this company for a long time now, a long time, it's been five years, the rip for the last two years, and I know they're taking lots of steps to address this, has been massive amounts of counterfeiting and people buying goods that are knockoffs of big brands, or the factories that manufacture stuff for brands are making a few others that are not putting the nameplate on it and then selling it on Pinduoduo for way cheaper. It comes with these downsides that now Pinduoduo is having to really invest in sort of anti-fraud mechanisms in order to not damage their own brand as a marketplace.

• 1:05:07David Rosenthal?

  And also, they've also been a lot of fraud on the consumer side, too, in that one of the ways, this company has huge sales and marketing expenses, that is certainly advertising that they do, but a big part of it is coupons and promos and deals, and their very sophisticated coupon hacking rings essentially in China and everywhere, where people are doing affiliate and coupon fraud to pay essentially nothing for items. So yeah, like there's massive challenges associated with this, but because of these dynamics, they've been able to break into this market, e-commerce in China, that everybody thought was done.

• 1:05:47Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. We've talked to the IPO a little bit. We're talking a little bit about their efforts today to sort of combat this fraud. There's another big effort today that has been going on, which is breaking into these sort of tier one and tier two cities, because the price per item on Pinduoduo is like six bucks or something, the average transaction size. And you look at that compared to any other, not only Chinese but American comparable, and it's super low. So not only is the price per item super low, as we talked about, PDD's take rate is incredibly low, and so...

• 1:06:21Ben Gilbert?

  They have a revenue problem.

• 1:06:22David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. What is, what is the business model of this company?

• 1:06:26David Rosenthal?

  That's a good question. Hard to build a big business, even with lots of GMV if you're only making money on the 0.6% take rate.

• 1:06:34Ben Gilbert?

  But what if, David, I could tell you that only 10% of your revenue needs to be from that take rate and you could make 90% of your revenue doing something else?

• 1:06:43David Rosenthal?

  That sounds like it could be interesting. Now, so what we're talking about is advertising and promotions. PD has built out a whole, very sophisticated advertising and ad bidding system, similar to Google, similar to Facebook, and actually really similar to Amazon and Alibaba too, where merchants on the platform can pay, and importantly, prepay for preferential placement in customers' feeds of their product, for sponsored placement, just like sponsored posts on Instagram or Twitter, you know, whatever. And that, as you said, is, makes up most of the revenue of this company.

• 1:07:22David Rosenthal?

  Now, what's interesting is like, people think this is a big innovation. Alibaba and Amazon have been doing the same thing for a long time. There are a lot of sponsored products on Amazon.

• 1:07:30Ben Gilbert?

  The originator of this business model is, is, in some ways, the classified ad, but in other ways, it's Google. And of course Yahoo before that, and Overture before that. And so the thing that you mentioned about Amazon is interestingly not true.

• 1:07:44David Rosenthal?

  Oh, I was wrong then.

• 1:07:46Ben Gilbert?

  It took Amazon basically 23 years to layer on an advertising business of any meaningful size to their e-commerce business. So the way that Amazon makes money is they charge a 30-ish percent take rate if you're a third-party seller. And of course, they have their own margin that they make if they're the retailer and they make most of their money. Let's forget AWS for a minute. They make most of their money that way. Well, only, what, three, four years ago, did they really start to meaningfully develop an advertising ecosystem that's been growing? It is now about a $10 billion a year run rate business for them. So they're very quickly becoming a major player in the advertising ecosystem.

• 1:08:24David Rosenthal?

  And these are, of course, all the sponsored search results that you see on Amazon.

• 1:08:29Ben Gilbert?

  Exactly, exactly. This was not Amazon's play for a long time and they were sort of leaving this money on the table. Fascinating to me that Pinduoduo was like, well, uh...

• 1:08:39Ben Gilbert?

  We aren't making money on these transactions. So we got to make it somehow. And very early in their business, they sort of developed leg number two of the stool to make money on promoting products. It's also more common in China.

• 1:08:52David Rosenthal?

  Yep. Alibaba has done this for a long time.

• 1:08:54Ben Gilbert?

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 1:08:56David Rosenthal?

  Which is interesting. I had thought that Amazon started this much earlier than maybe they did. I know they had pilot projects running around this for a long time.

• 1:09:05Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:09:07David Rosenthal?

  But the decision to really invest in it, I wonder if it was driven by observing what's been happening in China.

• 1:09:12Ben Gilbert?

  It had to be because they've really put their foot on the gas. It went from something like $4 billion in 2018 to $10 billion in 2019. So it's like, it's a really fast growing business.

• 1:09:23David Rosenthal?

  That's crazy. So we mentioned the IPO a minute ago. It was actually pretty huge. They raised $1.6 billion in the IPO. The stock popped 40% on day one, so Bill Gurley would be unhappy about that. Fortunately or unfortunately, he wasn't an investor here.

• 1:09:40Ben Gilbert?

  Money for bankers and money for people who bought the IPO allocation and money left on the table for all the private shareholders.

• 1:09:45David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, exactly. Colin wasn't hurting too much, though. This is crazy. He still owned 46.8% of this company.

• 1:09:54Ben Gilbert?

  What?

• 1:09:55David Rosenthal?

  When it went public. Yeah. So, you know, one of the knocks, we're going to get to this in narratives in a minute on this company.

• 1:09:59Ben Gilbert?

  Two and a half times what Tencent owned.

• 1:10:01David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. So one of the knocks on this company is they're not profitable, their losses are huge. We're going to get to that in a minute. Just think about, hmm, if this company had huge losses, how was Colin able to retain so much of the equity, even though they fundraised a lot? Keep that thought in your mind.

• 1:10:20Ben Gilbert?

  Incredibly competitive fundraises?

• 1:10:22David Rosenthal?

  Uh, yes and no. So he owned almost half the company. At IPO, that stake was worth $13.8 billion US dollars, making him the 12th richest person in China. Again, for a company that was essentially founded generously three years before and like really two years before that. Tencent and Sequoia both bought into the IPO rather than selling. They each put about $150 million USD to work buying. Shares in the IPO.

• 1:10:50Ben Gilbert?

  And that looks brilliant now.

• 1:10:51David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, because things go pretty well over the last two years. The stock is up 5X. They did cross $100 billion market cap. Ben, as you mentioned in the intro, their share of the e-commerce market in China went from, they were already at 4% of the e-commerce market by transaction volume at IPO in 2018. It is now 14%. That has come almost 100% at the expense of Alibaba, which went down from 73% to 62%. So almost all of that share.

• 1:11:24Ben Gilbert?

  Now, of course, they're both growing, so it's a massive growing pie. But yes, from share percentage, yes.

• 1:11:29David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, crazy. And with that stock run up, and this is why Pinduoduo has been in the headlines recently, they passed $100 billion market cap. Colin became, he's now, as of today, the fifth richest person in China. He briefly passed Jack Ma of Alibaba, becoming the third richest person in China. He's now down to number five. He's the 30th richest person in the world. And so as all this was happening.

• 1:11:55Ben Gilbert?

  He's after Bill and Warren.

• 1:11:57David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, he's gunning for them. On July 1st, in a surprise announcement, he announced that he was going to step down as CEO, remain as chairman of Pinduoduo, hand the CEO role over to his co-founder and CTO Li Chen, who had been with him, I think, since the first company. They were actually grad students at Wisconsin together. I don't know if Li worked full-time at Google, but I know he interned at Google. So they worked at Google together and they worked on the first company and all the companies all along. So very interesting what's going on now.

• 1:12:32Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, it's fascinating. Wait, but David, you gotta, you gotta answer that question. So how, if they were losing all this money, did they manage to preserve so much ownership in the company?

• 1:12:41David Rosenthal?

  All right, this is a good transition to narratives. The bear narrative around this company, I think, has been, well, A, this is just a kind of a crazy model, hard to understand. I didn't understand it at all until doing a lot of research over the last week. This is an interesting reminder that. Gap accounting doesn't always tell the whole story. So if you look at the net losses of this company.

• 1:13:05Ben Gilbert?

  This is quite an exciting podcast, listeners, that you're tuning into. We are talking about gap accounting.

• 1:13:11David Rosenthal?

  Okay, so if you look at the net losses of this company, they're huge and growing. But then I found something really interesting. Go look at the cash flow statement. This company has had huge positive operating cash flow for the last like three plus years. Over a billion dollars USD positive operating cash flow each of the last three years.

• 1:13:34Ben Gilbert?

  What is that? Upfront payments on advertising?

• 1:13:37David Rosenthal?

  So it's a couple of things that are just totally brilliant pieces of the model.

• 1:13:42Ben Gilbert?

  Let me put something into layman's terms, frankly, for myself, and then you can tell me if I'm interpreting this right. So there's something that's not being recognized as revenue, but they are receiving cash for something that gets to be in their bank account. And they get to be in this really nice cash position, even though on their income statement, it wouldn't show up as revenue because they're deferring it to some, for some future purpose.

• 1:14:03David Rosenthal?

  That is part of the story. So there's an interesting, almost kind of equivalent to Berkshire Hathaway and their GEICO Insurance business, equivalent to the float dollars that Berkshire gets. Of when new merchants sign up to come on to the PDD platform, they have to pay in a pretty meaningful cash deposit to be on the platform. And that's to guard against fraud. So if there are customer complaints, like kind of the equivalent of chargebacks or kind of for merchandise or whatever, there's actually some real teeth. And there's been a lot of controversy about this in an attempt to eliminate fraud.

• 1:14:47David Rosenthal?

  PDD has what they call the 10x rule, that the 10x the value of the goods gets charged to the merchant as a penalty for committing fraud, for putting counterfeit merchandise on the platform. And they have to pay that in upfront as essentially this deposit. Well, that cash just sits there, right? And it's so if you look at the restricted cash line item on this company's balance sheet, it's enormous. So that's one aspect of it. But that's not the only source of restricted cash. Remember, we talked about how the team buying deals work. When customers hit that team buying buy button, the cash immediately goes from their account over to PDD, even though the transaction isn't going to complete for up to 24 hours.

• 1:15:31David Rosenthal?

  And if the transaction doesn't complete at all, then it gets refunded back to the customer, but the cash still goes over to PDD.

• 1:15:39Ben Gilbert?

  So they're holding a bunch of cash that they're not allowed to touch because it didn't ever get recognized as revenue.

• 1:15:43David Rosenthal?

  Yep. And then the third source of this is a source of flow for the company is what you mentioned, Ben, which is that merchants for advertising for sponsored placement in the feed, they prepay for that advertising and then it gets doled out algorithmically over a set period of time and kind of charged off against the accounts. So all of that, you know, at the scale that PDD is operating nets out to this massively positive or I guess negative cash cycle in accountant speak, but positive in terms of cash flow, where it's essentially an interest free loan on their growth. So now they have raised a bunch of money that they've used to-

• 1:16:23Ben Gilbert?

  Wait, but can they spend that on growth? Like if you have all this restricted cash?

• 1:16:27David Rosenthal?

  It's restricted, but-

• 1:16:29Ben Gilbert?

  Like, what if the music stops?

• 1:16:30David Rosenthal?

  Well, certainly, right? If they stop growing, then it'll go down to it all, that restricted cash will go down. But because, you know, money is fungible, even though money is coming in and out of that restricted cash pool, it's large and growing. And so I think kind of just like the insurance flow business where like, it's not like Warren can go spend the cash on the insurance flow, but it can be invested and-

• 1:16:55Ben Gilbert?

  Right, so they put it in fixed income or something to get 1%.

• 1:16:58David Rosenthal?

  Exactly. So if you look at the short-term investments on the company's balance sheet, it's gone way, way, way up in recent years. Then that doesn't even account for the restricted cash. That's their actual unrestricted cash they've been investing. But I assume that's because they've built out like a massive treasury department to be investing all these pools of cash that they have.

• 1:17:21Ben Gilbert?

  You just painted a bear and bull side of that narrative.

• 1:17:24David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:17:24Ben Gilbert?

  So they're basically like the, the bear case on it is like that they're just burning cash. You could compare this to the litany of Uber era companies in the US that were like growth at all costs, very unprofitable.

• 1:17:35David Rosenthal?

  More accurately, Groupon.

• 1:17:37Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:37David Rosenthal?

  Burning a bunch of cash on customer acquisition while selling deals and subsidizing those deals.

• 1:17:43Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. And what you're saying is that they're not burning cash. They just, they have negative operating income, but they are actually doing great on cash.

• 1:17:53David Rosenthal?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Ben Gilbert?

  Literally cash.

• 1:17:54David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, it's very, um, there hasn't been a bunch of coverage about this, but I just found it as I was looking at the company's financial statements and I was like, whoa, this does not add up. Like you look at the income statement and it paints one picture of the company and then you look at the cash flow statement and it looks like a totally different company.

• 1:18:11Ben Gilbert?

  I will paint the other side of that narrative, which is they are incredibly richly valued because of how fast they grew. So like, uh, this is a company that sells inexpensive items, doesn't get to participate in that much of the transaction for those inexpensive items. And when you look at this, you know, $100 billion valuation that they have, it's a 23X revenue. Now, keep in mind that revenue is just the 0.6% of the transaction plus the money that they get from advertising. So 23 times revenue they're, they're trading at. Meanwhile, JD is literally one 10th of that at 2.3 times revenue. Alibaba, the close to

• 1:18:54Ben Gilbert?

  a third of that at 9X and Amazon at 5X. And so compared to like other companies with similar business models, you better believe that they're going to do a whole lot more growing the way that they have done, which frankly feels a little silly because they're already closing in on Alibaba, which is sort of the upper limit of how many users you could have in China buying things. Or they've got to get much better at monetizing each user. And so what they've been doing is trying to move into tier one and tier two cities, in addition to this three and four, and they've done that successfully. Toward the end of last year, they announced that 45% of users are now in tier one and tier two cities. So they sort of match the breakdown of what the sort of demography in China looks like. And the question is sort of how?

• 1:19:38Ben Gilbert?

  Why are people in tier one and tier two cities getting interested in this? Well, enter the subsidy scheme. So they're listing things like iPhones on the platform now. And so this is something that people in tier one and tier two cities are interested in. But PDD is going to the manufacturers and saying, hey, can you list it for like 15% off? Because that's kind of, that's what people really expect on our platform. And the manufacturers kind of look at them like they're insane. And then PDD says, well, we'll cover the difference. And that is where all their cash is going.

• 1:20:11David Rosenthal?

  Yep. And so that's why I know we were in a little bit of arcane accounting details there. But that's why I think this is so interesting, looking at their cash flow statement. Yes, they are subsidizing all this. They're effectively spending all of that money on customer acquisition. But their cash flow is positive while they're doing it. Even with all those subsidies, last year, they generated over $2 billion in operating cash flow. So if you think about the valuation in cash flow terms, this company's trading at, you know, roughly 50x past 12 months' operating cash flow. That's not a crazy valuation.

• 1:20:48Ben Gilbert?

  And this is why you need to look at all three financial statements in order to really understand a company. What's the phrase? Revenue is a fact and profit is an opinion. I think that sort of extrapolates a lot further where you can sort of have a different philosophical viewpoint on a business based on the way that you choose to value it.

• 1:21:08David Rosenthal?

  Yep, totally.

• 1:21:09Ben Gilbert?

  I know we're in narratives, but I want to give, just for listeners to keep a little sane here, I want to give some comparisons between where the company is today. So you understand the scale that they're at, JD, Taobao and Amazon, just to sort of understand the relationship between the two. The mega giant in China is Alibaba and their consumer e-commerce in China is Tmall and Taobao. The GMV on those platforms are close to a trillion dollars. That's 3x's Amazon's GMV.

• 1:21:43Ben Gilbert?

  That is a trillion dollars of goods or gross merchandise value moved through Tmall, Taobao. Now, they're able to capture 5% of that as revenue. And so last year, on those two platforms, Tmall and Taobao, Alibaba actually did $50 billion of revenue. So Alibaba generating $50 billion of revenue, they're very profitable. They have an operating margin, so not gross margin, but operating margin of 18%. This is a little bit mixed up in the Ali cloud and all that because it's not just the retail business. But the way I'm trying to paint this is they're a revenue juggernaut, and they're very profitable. Now, if you compare that to where we are with Pinduoduo,

• 1:22:27Ben Gilbert?

  you know, they have $145 billion in GMV. So like, they've made a dent. I mean, that's what, 1/6th, 1/7th, something like that of Alibaba, just, you know, in the last five years, they've, they've come up to be able to do that. But they only do a little over $4 billion in revenue. And, you know, that effectively means they're capturing about 3% of all the GMV flowing through the platform as revenue, either in the form of these advertising services or in the actual, you know, 0.6% commission that they get to take. So I just think it's interesting to sort of compare those two businesses. The other interesting way to compare Pinduoduo is that this 4.3 billion in revenue that

• 1:23:08Ben Gilbert?

  they do is only 5% of JD's revenue, but with 1.7x the users.

• 1:23:17David Rosenthal?

  Wow. Yeah, it's back to that dynamic that you were talking about earlier of the average purchase price of goods on the platform and velocity.

• 1:23:26Ben Gilbert?

  Pinduoduo has 490 million monthly active users, so 1.5 Americas worth of users. They actually have 630 million active buyers when you look at the number of people that are on the mini-program. It's sort of the sum total of anybody who buys through Pinduoduo, through any platform, 630 million, so close to 2 Americas. You compare that to like a JD, JD has an estimated 290 million monthly active users.

• 1:23:53Ben Gilbert?

  So that's, you know, call it half of Pinduoduo's users. But, you know, they're able to generate 83 billion in revenue because 28% of GMV gets captured as revenue. So it's like, would you rather be JD and have like half the users? Or would you rather be Pinduoduo and have, you know, way more users, but like, what are we looking at here? 5% of the revenue that generates?

• 1:24:18David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. The most interesting question is like all valuations of companies, it's about the future, not the past. And what do we think is going to happen to all of those users and transactions, especially as Pinduoduo starts trying to compete more directly for the same types of users that JD and Alibaba, and particularly Tmall are their hallmarks?

• 1:24:43Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. All right, listeners. Now is a great time to talk about a new partner of ours here on acquired, Logora, the agentic operating system that is redefining how the world's best legal teams work.

• 1:24:57David Rosenthal?

  Yep. It's sort of obvious that AI is going to completely change the legal industry. I bet most of you listening have dropped a contract into some sort of AI chatbot out there. Logora took that insight and asked the question, what if you really built something with that power from the ground up for the legal industry?

• 1:25:14Ben Gilbert?

  So the founders did exactly what great founders do, operate with obsessive customer focus. They embedded inside a massive law firm for months. They sat with the lawyers just watching how the work really gets done.

• 1:25:29David Rosenthal?

  And that's how you get features that customers love, like tabular review, where you drop in a folder of hundreds of contracts and it pulls every key term into a grid a lawyer can actually work with. Logora's bet here is interesting. Since it lets each lawyer handle more complexity, any given person can increase the quality of their work and do higher value work. And this means that the pie can grow even as each individual task takes less time.

• 1:25:53Ben Gilbert?

  And they recently launched Logora Agent, offering greater intelligence and performance. The agent lets lawyers set an objective, then it can handle the planning and the execution and delivery of the final product. Legal teams get to maintain full control and transparency since they're still involved where judgment is required.

• 1:26:12David Rosenthal?

  And Logora works where you already work. You can use it within Microsoft Word while redlining or drafting. The early Logora numbers essentially speak for themselves. When they have a head-to-head pilot with their top competitor, they win 70% of the time. Logora now has over 100,000 lawyers on the platform from 1,200 legal teams in 50 countries. And crazily, they went from 1 million to 100 million in ARR in about 18 months.

• 1:26:42Ben Gilbert?

  Truly insane numbers. And that is the real test. Plenty of things demo well, but the question is whether a busy associate actually reaches for it during crunch time, or whether a partner trusts it before going into a conversation with a major client. If your legal team wants to check it out, whether you're a law firm or you're in-house at a company, you can learn more at logora.com/acquired and just tell them that Ben and David sent you. All right, David, we opened up some questions there of who would you rather be? You know, Pinduoduo, JD, Team All Taobao. We gave some comps to Amazon. Let's move into like this, what would have happened otherwise? And then try and answer those.

• 1:27:22David Rosenthal?

  The most interesting thing to me, going through the history and facts of what could have been different, is what if Facebook had made a different decision here in the US about how open they were going to let their platform be to big businesses being built on it, and particularly commerce businesses? Now, I think it's extremely unlikely that would have happened. Like, I think they made the strategically correct decision, given the operating environment in the US at the time of going with advertising.

• 1:27:51Ben Gilbert?

  And we should say Facebook generates $70 billion a year in revenue, but they get to keep most of it. So like, pretty good decision, pretty good business.

• 1:27:58David Rosenthal?

  Yep, yep, definitely pretty good. I'm very fascinated by this Tencent decision because then they really have gotten to see and invest in all of these companies that are getting built. I mean, let's just take PDD and Meituan and Didi, those are the big three. Tencent is, I believe, the largest shareholder in all of them, the largest or one of the largest. Compare that, you know, a few years ago, when they started down this strategy, you know, they were kind of neck and neck with Alibaba and Baidu, and very unclear what the strategic future of the company was going to be. And now fast forward to, you know, nobody cry for certainly Alibaba, Baidu, I think,

• 1:28:43David Rosenthal?

  has fallen on somewhat harder times. But Tencent just seems to me to be so much better strategically positioned to capture all of the internet economy happening in China via this strategy.

• 1:28:55Ben Gilbert?

  There is some work to be done here to compare Tencent as an investor to SoftBank as an investor, because my guess here is that they actually did a better job at SoftBank's strategy than SoftBank did, to go and basically back all the unicorns and be in the most successful unicorns as they grow from billion-dollar companies to $100 billion companies. I think they're in like 15% to 20% of the unicorns, and they got in early. I would guess they made $12, $15 billion, of course, in liquid value, but just from this investment in PDD, like, I think they've done that four, five, six times.

• 1:29:32David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. It reminds me of Sequoia and our part one episode about Don Valentine and his quote that when he started Sequoia, he had a strategic advantage. He knew the future, right? And that was from knowing all the roadmaps from Fairchild and what all the applications of semiconductor are going to be. That was the same thing for Tencent here. Like, they knew the future in that they controlled the distribution platform that all these businesses were being built on. And now with many programs, not just the distribution platform, but literally the operating system, so they can see what's taking off. And then after they invest, they can start to put their hand on the scale a little bit and strategically help their chosen companies.

• 1:30:14Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah. Whereas Facebook thought they were kind of making the same decision where they'll benefit from the whole ecosystem when apps were booming and Facebook just made a sinful amount of money on app install ads, where they are like, we don't even have to have an opinion or make an investment. We just make money every time somebody goes and installs an app. And the question is, is that going to be as enduring as Tencent's method of doing it? Because Facebook's is more efficient. They don't have to invest. And they also don't have to have an opinion.

• 1:30:44David Rosenthal?

  Yep.

• 1:30:45Ben Gilbert?

  I like that you took what would have happened otherwise there. I was thinking, since this episode's going to be about the IPO and grading the IPO, like, what would have happened if they didn't IPO? I mean, Until your comment there, I was going to say they were screwed because I thought they desperately needed access to cash. And I think they've, over the course of the IPO and three subsequent debt and equity offerings, they've now raised another $5 billion or something since the IPO, or including the IPO. And so this is a company that does need cash to grow. It didn't need cash to grow originally because it was just growing like wildfire on WeChat, but now they have to invest dollars to make this thing grow and big dollars. Like, I think they have 1.5 or something billion dollars reserved for subsidies this

• 1:31:28Ben Gilbert?

  year. To me, there was this real danger of grow big, fast, but not be able to effectively monetize their user base if they weren't able to sort of keep growing into the more valuable user base. So I do still think that's true, even with your comment about them having really great cash flow dynamics. But I would say this company needed to IPO or go raise like a SoftBank round, or more likely a Tencent round that sort of simulated an IPO around the time that they did.

• 1:31:59David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. It's interesting. At least one of the equity follow-on rounds that they did, equity raises after the IPO, I believe Tencent bought most of, or at least a significant portion. So they continue to invest dollars into the company even though they're already the largest shareholder.

• 1:32:18Ben Gilbert?

  That's awesome. All right. Should we get into playbook?

• 1:32:21David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:32:22Ben Gilbert?

  Okay. So there's a thing that's like a splinter in my mind on team purchase that I'm trying to apply to like, how do you use this lesson in starting a startup where it was both a novel product feature that had like perfect product market fit, and it was an unbelievable mechanism for growth. It was like a native growth feature that was intrinsic to the value from the product itself, but also provided this incredible sort of extrinsic growth strategy. And I think that the way to misunderstand growth hacking is to assume that you can, you know, stick it on afterwards. And I think this is like the best example of growth hacking where the product itself was virality.

• 1:33:06David Rosenthal?

  It's so rare to be able to find examples like this. You know, maybe Instagram or WeChat or WhatsApp, like the messengers and social type platforms could fit this bill. You know, and I think the- Maybe one of the other, to go back to narratives a little bit, one of the other bear cases against this company is just an argument that people have said this before, that with social commerce companies, that there was this inherent viral nature to their products. And the steam always runs out of the engine, or has in the past. And, and I wonder if that's, you know, it could legitimately be still an open question with PDD, especially

• 1:33:48David Rosenthal?

  in these categories they're getting into now. Like, is it really about team buying when you're buying an iPhone? Or is it about them subsidizing the price?

• 1:33:55Ben Gilbert?

  Right. It's about them subsidizing the price. I'll offer an opinion on that.

• 1:33:59David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, it seems pretty clear.

• 1:34:01Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah. I mean, it's right. It's a classic, I think, a classic, what got you here won't get you there. Like now that they're a scale player, a team purchase is sort of less of a driver of the business. Though I do think though, like mini games and stuff in there are a driver. Even if you don't want to buy something today, there's something for you to do in the app. And there's rewards that come and discounts that come with doing it. So you may as well open the app and play with it today.

• 1:34:21David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. Oh, we didn't have time to talk about this, but this is, I think, one of my favorite features about it, that like, there's essentially a Farmville clone in the app where when you've finished growing your tree, they actually ship you a box of fruit.

• 1:34:34Ben Gilbert?

  Another big playbook thing that we have to call out here is, you know, thanks to Hamilton Helmer for sort of providing us a framework to think about this, but recognizing a counter positioning opportunity to build an amazing moat around your business. And with PDD, Colin realized that with the newly launched WeChat mini programs, there was an opportunity to leverage the WeChat social graph for e-commerce. And not only that, but he realized that it would be defensible from the largest competitor out there in e-commerce, Alibaba. And since Alibaba competed with Tencent and basically wouldn't use WeChat platform. And in fact, I think Alibaba actually banned their sellers from encouraging the use of WeChat and made them use their own chat platform. Of course, there are others

• 1:35:18Ben Gilbert?

  who could compete with Pendo Duo on WeChat, but Colin at least had that sort of like wide open lane versus the biggest incumbent. And this is that classic example of counter positioning, since in order for Alibaba- To see that Pinduoduo's strategy was working and then copy them, they would have needed to do serious damage to their own existing business to convince Tencent to sort of allow them the amazing native functionality that they were providing to Pinduoduo. Alibaba can't take advantage of the viral effects on WeChat.

• 1:35:50David Rosenthal?

  Well, I think there might be another structural reason, too, to why they couldn't respond, which is the payments layer. WeChat Pay and Alipay are mortal enemies, right? And was Alibaba really going to let people buy stuff on Taobao and Tmall using WeChat Pay when they're fighting tooth and nail against Alipay?

• 1:36:10Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, that's a great point. I hadn't thought about that either. It's a deep mode, at least against Alibaba, not against other startups, but definitely against them.

• 1:36:17David Rosenthal?

  I could be wrong here. I don't know enough about the supply side of these platforms, these e-commerce platforms in China to say, but I think they might have been able to also build a network on the other side to a unique network that's defensible of suppliers in that I do think that a good portion of the supply side for PDD is different than the supply side on JD and Alibaba in that it's these kind of contract manufacturers and remnant capacity on their lines. And I think a lot of these contract manufacturers are even just converting to now being fully dedicated PDD manufacturers.

• 1:37:01David Rosenthal?

  And that's a defensible mode in that like if you get a whole bunch of manufacturers on the supply side to go give you a meaningful part of their business and you're deeply integrated via the C2M initiatives that they have where they're giving them data, they're telling them, you know, what types of SKUs to produce and what quantities. It's going to be really hard to switch off of that.

• 1:37:25Ben Gilbert?

  Right, that creates, yeah, some walk-in. All right, I've got one more for playbook.

• 1:37:30David Rosenthal?

  Go for it.

• 1:37:31Ben Gilbert?

  And this is a negative one. Like, I think the ones we've talked about so far are like, "Go do this if you want to be like Pinduoduo." But the thing that they're experiencing now is diminishing marginal returns. So they, they obviously grew incredibly quickly to tier three and tier four cities, then spread like wildfire through WeChat groups. And they had basically a product with perfect product market fit for those users. So there was cheap goods, you buy it with friends, there's no real brands, it can take a while to ship, but it's so cheap and it's great and it's fun. But once they acquired all those users, every user after that costs more money to acquire. The product isn't perfect for them, they don't naturally hear about it. And this is something that I hadn't fully wrapped my head around until recently,

• 1:38:13Ben Gilbert?

  because I always thought, well, over time, as you build brand, customers would get cheaper to acquire. But especially with, like, a great example is any of these sort of like D to C products now that have amazing organic growth at first because they find their niche, they find that community, they find the obsessed people, and then you run out of them and you have to switch to a traditional customer acquisition strategy that costs money. It really makes you understand and get religious about, "What is your obsessed segment addressable market? The people for which you're going to have to pay incredibly little money for them to like your thing." Because you can spend tons and tons of money and acquire a lot of people for your thing, but your company will be the most valuable if the people who are crazy about your thing,

• 1:38:58Ben Gilbert?

  that you don't have to spend lots of money to reach, are themselves responsible for a lot of buying power.

• 1:39:03David Rosenthal?

  Yep, yep, 100%. And this is reflected perfectly in this massive subsidies that PDD is having to spend on now to attract those marginal buyers.

• 1:39:16Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, and I guess the point I want to make here is, the core offering that they had that spread like wildfire and they didn't have to spend a lot of money to acquire those customers, it was huge. And they do make tons of money off them. So like, very successful business in terms of finding that virality before they hit the sort of gnarly falloff where diminishing marginal returns start to happen. But that is the place where they are now.

• 1:39:37David Rosenthal?

  One real quick playbook theme I want to talk about here is we've alluded to it a little bit with agriculture and produce with PDD. They're also a good example of just like with every successive generation of internet companies, you can penetrate further and further into areas of the economy that you wouldn't have thought the internet could penetrate into before. Literally rural farmers growing fruit are selling at massive scale on PDD.

• 1:40:05Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

• 1:40:06David Rosenthal?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Ben Gilbert?

  Okay, so grading. I guess what we should do here, even though it's early, is grade the IPO. Like, how good of a use of proceeds? Was the IPO a good idea? Did they make good use of it? And then answer a secondary question that we teased earlier, which is, where do you want to put your chips right now? JD, Taobao, Timo, or Pinduoduo?

• 1:40:26David Rosenthal?

  Oh, I love it. I love it. Putting our money where our mouth is. On the grade for the IPO, for sure. And again, early grading, you know, things could change. Markets are volatile and all that. And certainly, this is an incredibly intensively competitive space, e-commerce in China. But it's up almost 5X since the IPO. They've certainly put that capital to good work, I think, building value, even with their massively beneficial cash cycle that they're generating operating cash from. And I think it's also really interesting that, you know, Tencent and Sequoia were buyers in the IPO. Tencent, at least, I don't know about Sequoia, but at least Tencent has continued to be a buyer in secondary offerings along

• 1:41:09David Rosenthal?

  the way. Just goes to show the incredible potential that an informed insider investor like that, who also controls the main platform on which the company operates, think there is still an upside to be had in the company.

• 1:41:23Ben Gilbert?

  You're gonna herd bet here because you think that insiders have good information? And if they're putting money in, do you have a good lead? Okay, I'm in.

• 1:41:30David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 1:41:33David Rosenthal?

  But you know, people do tend to put their money where their mouth is. And, and I think those are like, literally the insiders, I don't think have sold a share here. The major insiders, and I think that speaks volumes.

• 1:41:46Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, I guess A is the right thing. The way I want to get analytical on this would be for the shareholders who decided to put their dollars to work in the IPO versus other things that they could have put their dollars to work into. How good of a decision was that? And that's fairly cut and dry. I mean, it's basically, like you said, a 5X over two years. Any day of the week, I will take that. You know, it's, it's much different than the sort of crazy upside that you see in these acquisitions, where a dollar of Facebook's cash put into Instagram was a much, much healthier return over the years. But maybe we should come up with a separate grading scale for IPOs. Basically, like if you invested in the IPO, how good was the ensuing sort of decade after that?

• 1:42:29Ben Gilbert?

  Cause I think that's really the way, the way that you should think about it is for the new shareholder. I think in the past, we've often thought about how good of a use of the cash raised was it for the company?

• 1:42:41David Rosenthal?

  I like this.

• 1:42:42Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, which in this case, looking at that perspective, I think that's the point you were arguing earlier. They've, they've made very good use of it. I don't have a, I have no idea how they could have made a better use of it. But the thing that does sort of.

• 1:42:55David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, that's not really the interesting analysis, though. The interesting analysis is like, if you bought into this IPO and you are still holding the shares today, obviously you're feeling good, but like, actually even more interesting is like, let's, let's think about, say you bought into the IPO, planning to hold for a decade at least. How good do we think a decision that was?

• 1:43:17Ben Gilbert?

  Right. I mean, that gets into this question of which of the three horses do you want? Do you want JD, Pindo or Taobao? Of those who have benefited from coronavirus, Pinduoduo has benefited much more than the users that JD or Taobao, Tmall have added. They have taken meaningful share away from Taobao, Tmall, Alibaba. The bet that you have to make is that they're going to. Over time, do a good job of monetizing this so far valuable, but not that valuable user base. I guess the structural question is like, is the things that they're really good at this gamification, retention, virality, team buying, are those things going to help them acquire the

• 1:44:02Ben Gilbert?

  future users that they need to acquire and extract more dollars from their existing base? And I don't know if the answer to that is yes.

• 1:44:12David Rosenthal?

  Yep. I think there's definitely a big aspect of what you said a minute ago, Ben, of like, what got you here isn't going to get you there going on in the company. So I think the question is, do they know, I think they probably do know that, are they capable of building the next act? And this is actually a case where the most recent news is a little concerning.

• 1:44:38Ben Gilbert?

  Oh, the CEO transition?

• 1:44:39David Rosenthal?

  Yeah, I know. That's, that's meaningfully concerning.

• 1:44:43Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. Like if Tencent has really been buying up, can they put their finger on the scale again? Is there some more nuclear move that they can pull? Like, I don't, I think they sort of religiously don't acquire the companies that they, that launch on their platform because they don't want to make that seem like what's going to happen to you and make you potentially scared of them or not scared of them.

• 1:45:04David Rosenthal?

  They also don't really need to.

• 1:45:06Ben Gilbert?

  Right. If they threw all their weight behind PDD, how could that meaningfully change the trajectory?

• 1:45:15David Rosenthal?

  Well, and here's another interesting thing. I didn't dig too much into this, but there are articles, I believe Tencent has been testing, competing in this space on their own, natively, like spinning up a social commerce platform within Tencent. You know, there are all sorts of reasons why they could be doing that, you know, to learn more, experiment, all sorts of stuff. Facebook, to talk about them is another example. They're building new stuff all the time that they don't really intend to invest behind. But if they were to decide to make this a big initiative, well, that would really suck for Pinduoduo.

• 1:45:54Ben Gilbert?

  Yep. All right. To get, to give an answer, because we could waffle on the fence forever. I am going to say I'd rather be Alibaba, like I'd rather be Taobao, especially at these prices. That's a big part of my analysis is PDD is so freaking expensive. Curious where you fall down on that.

• 1:46:11David Rosenthal?

  Ah, it's interesting. I'm hesitant to say, one, one reason I'm hesitant to say is I don't know enough about JD, about what their strategy is and what a bull and bear case for JD would be. Certainly, it seems like they have the most attractive kind of unit economics in the space.

• 1:46:28Ben Gilbert?

  I mean, they look like Amazon and they have a very affluent base.

• 1:46:31David Rosenthal?

  Yep, yep. I wonder, okay, so this is a little bit of a cop out. I will pick a horse in a minute, but I actually wonder, thinking about this a little bit, if this might be a case where the right move is just to buy shares in all three. I figure like this is such a rising tide. I mean, I think

• 1:46:46Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:46David Rosenthal?

  e-commerce in China is growing at something insane, like a 30% CAGR.

• 1:46:51Ben Gilbert?

  Yeah, I mean, if it, if it went from 6% to 24% over the last eight years, they went from behind the US to I think ahead of the US in terms of penetration.

• 1:47:00David Rosenthal?

  Right. So it's kind of like, what's the opposite of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? Like maybe rearranging deck chairs on, on a, on a Falcon Heavy? Like it doesn't matter. You know, you should just buy shares in all of them.

• 1:47:13Ben Gilbert?

  Right. I like that.

• 1:47:14David Rosenthal?

  But I do think in terms of, it's pretty crazy that PDD essentially took 10 points a share from Alibaba in the last two years. I think I would bet on PDD. I mean, I'm biased because I just did all the research on it, but I think I would bet on them. Like that's pretty damn impressive. A team that can do that, I think is a team that can figure out a second act with the big caveat of like, what is going on with Colin? Is him becoming chairman more like him becoming like Bezos is essentially chairman of Amazon? You know, like there's a CEO of AWS and there's a CEO of Amazon retail and Bezos is sort of group level CEO. Is that what's happening? Or is it like Colin was like, man, I made a bunch of money and I'm going to ride off into the sunset.

• 1:47:57Ben Gilbert?

  I'm going to lock in these gains and yeah. It's good question. I suppose that what matters is how, if he sells a lot of his shares or not.

• 1:48:05David Rosenthal?

  Yep. Which he did transfer a bunch of them out. What I don't know is how much of that was sold versus, he had said from the get go, even in the IPO prospectus, that he intended to create multiple charitable foundations, kind of like Bezos. So I think that was part of the reduction in the stake.

• 1:48:23Ben Gilbert?

  He has such a thing for Bezos. He even does the thing where he republishes the original shareholder letter after each PDD shareholder letter, which of course, there have been two since the IPO.

• 1:48:36David Rosenthal?

  All two.

• 1:48:36Ben Gilbert?

  He attaches the 2018 after that.

• 1:48:39David Rosenthal?

  Yeah. All right. There we have it.

• 1:48:43Ben Gilbert?

  Let's bring it home. David, I guess we've got a bet going and we'll have to revisit this at some point.

• 1:48:48David Rosenthal?

  This feels like a bet where the odds are in your favor to just be on one of those horses.

• 1:48:55Ben Gilbert?

  Agree.

• 1:48:56David Rosenthal?

  All right, listeners. Now is a great time to talk about one of our favorite companies, Statsig.

• 1:49:03Ben Gilbert?

  Yes. There is a reason why the best product teams rely on Statsig, whether they are iterating on their core product features or shipping AI-powered experiences at scale.

• 1:49:13David Rosenthal?

  Yep. In the crazy speed of today's AI world, shipping fast is just table stakes now. It's basically trivial to build and deploy your app constantly. The real advantage is how quickly you learn what changes actually created value for customers and how fast you can use that signal to guide what you ship next.

• 1:49:34Ben Gilbert?

  This is where Statsig comes in. It brings experimentation, feature flags, and product analytics into one unified system so teams can ship safely, test rigorously, and directly link what they changed to how users actually behaved.

• 1:49:46David Rosenthal?

  So if you want to make learning your competitive advantage, whether you're building new AI experiences or just evolving your existing core product, go to statsig.com/acquired to get started.

• 1:49:57Ben Gilbert?

  All right, carve-outs. So, listeners, I have two. David has zero right now because he's been steeped in research and reading more in the series of previous carve-out, which was The Dark Tower. The Dark Tower, yeah. Yeah. By Stephen King. So I'll give my first one first, and then for the second one, I think David may claim it. So for the first one... It's team buying on the carve-outs. That's right. That's right. I'm only halfway through this book right now, but it's excellent. And if you liked our SpaceX episode, I think you will love this book. It is called How to Make a Spaceship. It is the story of the X Prize and how that came to be and how the sort of amazing idealist behind the X Prize sort of grew up during

• 1:50:38Ben Gilbert?

  the space race and started all these incredible organizations and sort of was just a force of will to make it happen. And I think I'm like exactly halfway through, but it's been thrilling so far. It's just a really good... If you kind of like the like shoe dog, it's almost these like thriller bio book. It's just like, it's exciting and you never quite know what's going to happen next and it's well-written and well-story told. So I highly recommend it. The second one is amazingly, I had not read this before, but I finally read Creativity Inc. Oh, man. How had you not read that? I know, right? I'm shocked. Sinful that we did a Pixar episode and I never read it. So good. It's so great. And especially in the context of startups with Pioneer Square Labs,

• 1:51:23Ben Gilbert?

  starting startups over and over again is a creative process that also requires structure and repeatability and efficiency. And I think a lot of us are in jobs that require both creativity and repeatability and efficiency. And so, first of all, it's cool as a Pixar nerd because they give these behind-the-scenes glimpses into rewrites of movies so you can find out what was going to happen in Up and then they rewrote it, or what was going to happen in the original Toy Story and they rewrote it. And some of them are famous, but some of them are like less famous, just cool Easter eggs. But also, there's just great principles in there of like how to run a creative organization in a repeatable way. It's just, it's a great freaking read.

• 1:52:02David Rosenthal?

  I would love to go back and reread it, having read Seven Powers now, and particularly the cornered resource power and the example of the Pixar brain trust, the idea of that as a cornered resource, that group of people and their collective experience. I wonder how, is any of that coming through in?

• 1:52:21Ben Gilbert?

  Yes, there's also definitely process power, where a lot of people have tried to copy Pixar and it hasn't worked. And it took Disney actually acquiring Pixar and having their leadership come in and turn Disney Animation Studios in large part into a different Pixar. There's important ways that they left it on its own and let them sort of have their legacy. But like, a lot of the processes they brought over from Pixar. So there's definitely some process power there, too.

• 1:52:47David Rosenthal?

  Yep. And it does feel like, even with that and sort of that reinvention of Disney Animation, that there is kind of a ghost in the machine in Pixar and now in Disney Animation of like, this is, I think, what, you know, what Hamilton talked about in Process Power of like, you can't totally quantify, you know, what the magic of the Toyota production system like, you can have lots of people come in and try and learn it. You can read Creativity, Inc., but there's just something special in that group.

• 1:53:19Ben Gilbert?

  Great point. All right, ready to bring it home?

• 1:53:22David Rosenthal?

  Let's do it.

• 1:53:23Ben Gilbert?

  All right. Well, if you are listening and you are not subscribed and you like what you hear, you should subscribe. And if you want to become a limited partner, subscribing gets you access to our bonus show where we dive deeper into the nitty gritty of company building topics in real time. Of course, also our newly added book club and our monthly LP calls on Zoom. To join, you can click the link in the show notes or go to glow.fm/acquired and all new listeners get a seven day free trial. If you want to discuss this episode, you should join us in Slack at acquired.fm/slash-slash and we will see you next time.

• 1:53:58David Rosenthal?

  We'll see you next time.