05 | Shooting the Past | Roughy Justice

A fishy looking photograph throws Clare Wright into the deep end of the battle between industry and sustainability.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  ABC Listen. Podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  I'm Claire Wright, host of Shooting the Past, where in each episode, one photograph gives us the tools to dig beneath the surface of Australian history.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  You know those classic black and white photographs taken during the mouse plagues of the early 19th century in Australia? Mounds of mice, great pyramids of dead rodents piled up on windswept farms. Well, that's what this photograph reminds me of. Only the image is captured in glorious technicolor, all deep pinks and startling oranges, and the pile in the foreground is not made of mice, but fish. Big, fat, orange fish with bulging, googly eyes and huge gaping mouths. Grotesque, frozen, open mouths, like those circus sideshow clowns that you drop ping pong balls into.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  At the summit of this fish mountain stands a man in yellow plastic waders and a thick hoodie. It's cold out there. Presumably, he's the fisherman, in some way responsible for this mighty haul. The man stares directly at the camera. He might be cold, but he looks proud, almost defiant. What's going on in this picture? This portrait of grim plenty?

• 1:36Speaker 01

  The best way for me to get to the bottom of this fishy story is to throw myself in the deep end. I seek out the woman who took the photo, Julie Forte, who it turns out is not only a skilled photographer, but a commercial fisher herself. Julie agrees to meet me at a sheltered cove on Twofold Bay, near Eden, on the far south coast of New South Wales. When I arrive, Julie is nowhere to be seen, but she soon makes a spectacular entrance.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  She's in her full waders.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Jumping out of the tinny that has ferried her in from a trawler on the bay and wading into shore.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for doing this. Fantastic.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  As we settle on a park bench overlooking the bay, Julie tells me that the photo was taken on her family's boat in 1988, during a regular day at sea.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  We did our first trip to Sandy Cape, which is the top of Tasmania. I went with them then, and we got a huge bag of Oreo Dory and about three tonne of roughy. And after that, we kept on going. We went into Portland, Victoria, and we started fishing from there because that's where the fish, and this is where this photo was taken, off Portland. But yeah, I only did a couple of trips, and then I did a trip later into St Helens with them, when the roughy were really firing up in 89.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  And can you tell me about the fellow in the photograph?

• 3:01Speaker 02

  On top of the orange roughy is Guy Robert. Guy was called Smiley because he was always smiling. A lovely young fellow. He worked with us five or six years, I think. And yeah, the fellows had a great time with the roughy. They was party all night and go out fishing and enjoy the fruits of their labour. And yeah, and unfortunately, poor Smiley drowned a few years later on another boat, on the Terra Star. So it was a big shock to everyone, especially the town. It was atrocious conditions at night. And another fellow had a life ring, and he managed to float away, and they rescued him. But the other two young fellows, yet they drowned. You can't be complacent.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Because you're battling with the elements.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  You are, and it doesn't matter what you're doing, whether you're steaming or fishing. You know, I mean, wire ropes can break, things can fall on you. You're out there in the elements. Not every day is a picnic.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  So what do you see when you look at this photograph now?

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Gee, there's a lot of long ago memories, really. It was a good time. It was like a Roman candle. She burnt short and bright, but it was a great time. It was, yeah, a time in history.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  So tell me about that time. Whenabouts would it have started, this, sometimes they call it the gold rush?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Well, it was, really. There was a boat catching them and keeping it quiet for a few years. And then a few of the others cottoned on to them. And then it suddenly became, we'd better get into this because the markets are getting bigger and bigger. And the Americans wanted the fillets. So we geared up. There'd already been a few boats gear up earlier, but we geared up and we left in January 1987. There was another boat, the Twofold Bay from here, went as well, and a few boats from Aladala and Burma Gooey. They all went down. And to begin with, we were all working off Sandy Cape, off the west coast of Tassie. And then as they were getting the fish, they were finding more areas down towards Portland,

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Port McDonnell, Beachport Way. And you were opening up new ground and finding more fish all the time. So it was, once the market was established, it was get what you can while you can.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  So it was almost like you were prospecting for fish?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, because it hadn't really been found. You know, it was just one of these new fisheries that don't come along very often. And it's a deep water fish, which market trawling had been going on for, you know, like 50 years. And no one had gone outside, you know, probably 300 for them. And now these were found in 400 plus.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And it was the technology that allowed that to happen, the fish finding?

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I suppose so, but you needed, you couldn't just use your normal trawl gear. You had to have more wire rope to get further down. You needed stronger sounders, you needed stronger net drums. Yeah, you needed a lot stronger gear to actually do this fishery.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  So it looks like Robert is standing there on a mountain of orange roughy, which I now also can interpret as being like a mountain of gold. He's like the king of the castle.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  He is, yeah. What would happen? Because we sidebagged the fish. You'd get a big, long bag, and you would take a few tonne at a time out and tip them down the tanks. We had six brine tanks, which we would fill up. And when they got to a certain stage, because the fish are so rough, they wouldn't settle in the tank. So you had to let them settle a bit. So in the meantime, you would stack them up in the middle of the deck and then throw them down yourself after you'd pretty much loaded. So the boys there are just about to start loading the fish, and Guy's on top saying, "Well, don't just stand there, do something." And then they would all go down the tank.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  It was, yeah, it was a very lucrative fishery.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  And so was there any regulation at that time at all?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  No, all you needed was a licence, fishing licence, South East Trawl, and that was basically it.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Was a licence expensive to get?

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Not back then. I think it was only a few thousand dollars.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  So was there great competition between the fishing boats out there to see who was the next one, who was going to find the next one?

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Well, there was, yeah, there was. But they also would line up and take turns on areas. They would say, "All right, this boat's, you know, in line." And then once he's shot through, the next boat would take their turn. That was mainly on the hill at St Helens.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  And so how did it stop? Why did it end?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Once we found the spawning hill in St Helens, the fishermen realised, "Well, this is just going to get annihilated." So they called a meeting with the government officials, and we all sat down, and we had many, many meetings, and said, "We need to have this regulated more." And we said, "We don't want any more boats into the fishery because of what would happen." And then we were transitioning. They were starting to send us into quotas, which meant you would only have a certain amount of fish to catch. So some of the companies were rallying, saying, "Well, we've got bigger boats. We need more fish." And they managed to get a deal with the government that they got a bigger slice of the quota than the smaller boats.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  So, and then the government, every year, would reduce the quota. So in the end, we had 450 tonne of quota. And after 10 years or something, we ended up with about 5 tonne, which is not viable.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  So it sounds like it was the fishermen themselves who initiated the concern about overfishing?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Well, they did, they did, because New Zealand was moving in. They were buying boats and quotas and everything, which they've done. And yeah, it would just be, yeah, wrecked. They're starting to open it all up again. The scientists have suddenly realised that the fish are still there. The fish scattered after being hammered for so long. They're all coming back. They were saying how old they were, and they don't spawn until they're 30 or something. But they're finding thousands of tonnes of them, and they're just realising now, well, they wouldn't have bred up that quick. So the fish were still there. They would go down to the bottom end of Tassie.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  So it's the scientists who are the, sort of, the other side of the coin?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and a lot of them work in with you. Some of them are just hell-bent against anything. We've found that personally. But others are willing to work in and do a bit of research and try and, you know, work in with the fishermen, because once the fishermen are gone, you don't get any research. You know, and the fishermen are the ones that are finding the grounds, finding new species. And then there's a lot of areas now that are closed to fishing. People don't realise, there's big areas all the way around Tassie, Victoria, that are not only just marine parks, but closed areas. So you've got quotas, you've got areas that are shut. You know, there's a lot against the boats that are left.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  What does the word sustainability mean to you?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  I think it means looking after your fishery and your fishermen, if we're talking about fishing. Because you've got to have a balance of both. You've got to have fish, and it's got to be there, but you've also got to have the fishermen, who support the town and the community. And you've got to have a variety of fishermen. You know, prawns are a big thing. But yes, I think it's got to the stage where the fish are being looked after, and we've got to look after the fishermen, too.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  It's clearly a very crowded boat out there on Australian waters. There's the fishers, the government regulators, scientists, consumers, and the fish themselves. I'm wondering how long there have been so many stakeholders invested in commercial fishing. So I've come to see historian Anna Clark. Anna is an associate professor at the Centre for Public History at UTS, and the author of The Catch: The Story of Fishing in Australia. So what does Anna see when she looks at Julie's photo?

• 11:15Speaker 03

  I see a mountain of orange ruffie. It's kind of an abundance, but it's also... It's more than abundance. It feels like, you know, there's a man standing on... They're on a boat, and I can see bits of netting around it and some booms and so on. And he's looking straight down the barrel of the camera, kind of precipitously teetering on the top of this mountain of gasping dead fish that have obviously been hauled up just moments ago.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  I'm wondering if you can tell me how far back we can trace commercial fishing in Australia?

• 11:54Speaker 03

  The earliest forms of fishing for the market would obviously be indigenous fishers, pre-colonisation, because people would have caught fish and bartered it within communities and between communities and so on. But in terms of actually buying and selling fish, you could trace it to the first colonists. And they were certain that part of the primary produce of that colony would come from fish. Not that there was a market for it, really. They didn't even have currency, you know. But absolutely, there's a strong sense that fishing would be part of the colonies in Australia.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  So at what point could you confidently say Australia had a fishing industry?

• 12:30Speaker 03

  By the turn of the century, there's refrigeration, there's ice making, and there are motor engines, which, you know, really is a game changer for commercial fishing in Australia. So it goes from being a sort of cottage industry that's community-based, it's collective, and it changes into a bigger industry where people can go further because they have larger boats, they have refrigeration, so they can stay out for longer. And so it also changes the sorts of fish that people can catch over time, which is a, you know, a real shift in what Australians are not only catching but also eating.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  For centuries off the Australian coast, salmon have swum unsought and uncorked. Today, they're the basis of a new industry. St. Trollers, like the Pamela Star, put out from Eden...

• 13:18Speaker 05

  Auckland, South Australia welcomes the start of the tuna season with a spectacular tuna-rama.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  In this canary where the demand is always greater than the supply. Salmon ready to serve on Australian tables.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  What role did governments have to play in developing the fishing industry? Was there a sense that there was this great resource out there that was untapped?

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Absolutely. This is just after federation, and Australia is just forming a national consciousness and a national economy. And there's a great sense of, I guess, a nation-building moment that needs to be harnessed. In New South Wales, for example, you know, the government was wanting to foster a fishing industry. And because these technologies like refrigeration and motor engines and so on are very nascent, and they're just only emerging, and they're really unreliable, the industry needed proper investment in order to sort of kick-start the economy, the fishing economy, if you like. And so the New South Wales government actually brought in fishing trawlers. The first trawlers in New South Wales were brought in by the New South Wales government.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  And in order to sort of try and overcome that distance that we talked about earlier that was really preventing fish trading, they invested in a whole series of fishing shops and some of the infrastructure to be moving fish, not only the trawlers, but the whole distribution business as well. It was like a sort of seaside socialism. To do it will help create this bold future for the nation itself.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  I'm Claire Wright, and this is Shooting the Past, where each week a different photograph helps us dive deep into Australian history.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  In 1963, the historian Geoffrey Blaney wrote a famous book called The Rush That Never Ended about the mining industry in Australia. It's a triumphal story of unchecked progress. But in her book The Catch, Anna Clark talks about the fishing industry working in boom-bust cycles. So what does a fishing boom look like, and its flip side, a fishing bust?

• 15:22Speaker 03

  A fishing boom is all nets are out. What tended to happen was that a fishing ground would be discovered, perhaps near a city initially, and then as that stock sort of dwindled further and further out to sea. And as the fishing ground is discovered, it's, you know, boats go out and quickly exploit the resource. But for a lot of the 20th century, there's not a real sense of the science of fisheries and sustainability. So quite quickly after those booms, the fish were fished out.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  And how early were observers noting the depletion of fish stocks?

• 15:58Speaker 03

  It happens very early around Sydney in the mid-19th century. Questions are being asked, and by the late 19th century, there are royal commissions into the fisheries around Sydney because the fish stocks had plummeted so much.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  But was there always a sense that there would be another frontier and another frontier? That if you fished out Botany Bay, you could go to South Australia, or there would be Western Australia?

• 16:19Speaker 03

  It's a curious mentality, because while at the same time there's a sort of growing awareness of that fish stocks are limited, there's a government intervention encouraging commercial exploitation of fish stocks.

• 16:32Speaker 06

  As the world's fish stocks dry up, foreign fleets are targeting Australian fisheries. The orange fish here are called orange ruffie, and some of them could have been swimming here undisturbed since the middle of last century. But in the last 20 years, the world's fishing industry has discovered orange ruffie. Orange ruffie is now the most popular fish on American dinner tables, and it's become one of the world's most fragile resources.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Anna, can you tell me how orange ruffie fit into the boom-bust cycle?

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, orange ruffie are a sort of a quintessential example of the boom-bust cycle of fishing in Australia. They were discovered, I guess, in commercial quantities off Australia and New Zealand in the late 1970s and 1980s. And there were great, enormous schools of these fish, which were that classic white, mild-tasting fish. And the thing about orange ruffie is that they aggregate in vast, vast numbers. So once commercial fishing is able to go further out

• 17:47Speaker 03

  and has the capacity to refrigerate and also fish safely in these big seas further offshore, it's only a matter of time before fish like orange ruffie are discovered and capitalized upon.

• 18:01Speaker 06

  Well, emotions are again running high in the Southern Ocean as Australian and New Zealand boats compete for another new deep-sea fish, which they say could be depleted within a week. The fish is orange ruffie, and the area of disputes on the edge of Australia's... The Australian government right now needs to close the area of fishing activities, but it has to be done immediately to save the stocks now. It could even be too late.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Was there a particular incidence or era that sort of defines the rise of consciousness around sustainability?

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it is around fisheries like the orange ruffie. It's sort of in the 1970s and 1980s. There are a few fisheries like southern bluefin tuna and orange ruffie and gemfish, where there was a real fishing boom and a lot of money was made. And so after these, there was a collapse of southern bluefin tuna stocks and orange ruffie stocks and gemfish stocks. The alarm bells really started ringing, and regulation came down very hard after that. And the consciousness raising is both within the industry but also outside it.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  How would you define or describe the historical tensions between fishers and regulators?

• 19:14Speaker 03

  Ongoing, since federation and even before that. While there is a desire to fish and create wealth and, you know, have an industry that sustains nations and populations, there is always going to be a tension. Regulators want to maintain that people can fish into the future, as do fishers. But it's a science that changes over time, and knowledge changes over time. So those tensions change over time.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  And if there is a tension between fishers and regulators, what about between commercial fishers and recreational fishers? What's the relationship like there historically?

• 19:53Speaker 03

  Obviously, both groups of people want to fish into the future. So there's a lot that brings fishers together. But the resource is limited. And so when you have multiple parties competing for a limited resource, of course, there's tension there. And commercial fishers need a living and need a wage. And also, not everybody fishes. So we need commercial fishers in order to provide fish to the markets for those people who sadly don't fish. Recreational fishers also want to keep fishing into the future and feel like, you know, even in the 19th century, there are people concerned about the numbers of fish in Sydney Harbour. And they say, you know, "I just want to go down and catch a fish, and I can't because it's fished out."

• 20:37Speaker 03

  So those tensions emerge quite quickly when the resource is limited.

• 20:44Speaker 06

  Really, since I was a small child, going fishing with my dad on summer holidays down at Apolla Bay. And just from an early age, we'd always be down there having a fish, and I just became fascinated by these amazing creatures out in the water.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  It seems like just about everyone in Australia has a sentimental connection to fishing, even those whose job it is to provide objective data to government. Dr. John Morangello is a quantitative marine ecologist in the School of Biosciences at the University of Melbourne. I've hooked an interview with John to get a sense of what... Evidence-based science has to contribute to the management of fish stocks.

• 21:22Speaker 06

  Well, a really important management tool that came about in the early 1990s in Australia was this sort of setting of individual quotas and allowing each fisher to sort of with their licence to have a set number of fish they can catch. Now, the beauty about having a quota, which is basically a number of fish that are allowed to be caught, or a total volume of fish that can be caught from a fishery in a given year, that numbers are set by scientists working with managers and with industry. And they say, well, people crunch the numbers and say, well, next year we can catch this number of fish. Having a quota then takes away that impetus for potentially over-exploitation where people are running and just trying to catch as many fish as they can, which often happens in other jurisdictions around the world. So having a quota that an individual fisher can have, they can then work out when they're

• 22:06Speaker 06

  going to go fishing and how they're going to use that quota. They can sell that quota on to other fishers if they so like. But it gives a bit of certainty in the industry, but also means that we're setting a catch rate that is hopefully sustainable.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  So is greater scientific knowledge a brake or an accelerator on industry?

• 22:22Speaker 06

  Well, I think it can be both. I think that having understanding of systems and the knowledge that science can generate can really allow industries to really advance and accelerate through. We can sort of see advancements in technology that are driven by a scientific discovery that open up whole new fields of industry, open up whole new ways of perhaps medical science, for example. At the same time, too, science can also play an important role in being a bit of a brake and saying, well, perhaps economic drivers are that we keep exploiting a resource, we want to go out there and catch as many fish as we can in one instance. Having science to sort of say, well, perhaps we should be a little bit more measured in how we go about this. Let's work out how many fish are out there. Let's make sure that the total number of fish we're catching is actually at a sustainable level. We're not overfishing a population. And that's where science itself can be seen as a brake.

• 23:07Speaker 06

  But I think in the long term, that brake can actually then be a facilitate long-term viability of a fishery, for example.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  It sounds like science was playing pretty big catch-up in an industry, say, like orange ruffie. When, from what I'm gathering from this story, people just went out there, it was a gold rush, it was, it was an open frontier and they went hell for leather. And it's been a process of catching up ever since.

• 23:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that's in this case of the orange ruffie, that is really, really true. I think one of the things that wasn't gotten right from the science perspective is we just didn't really understand the biology of these orange ruffie. We didn't really know much about them. We didn't know how long they lived, we didn't know what they were doing. And of course, large catches of these ruffie were found. The fishery went crazy, a lot of people made a lot of money out of this. And it was only afterwards we realised, hang on a tick, we don't quite understand the science underpinning this species. We don't understand how we should be managing it properly. And hence we see this, this collapse of the fishery. And that's where science is indeed playing a catch-up. And I think we probably still are to a degree.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  So what do you know about ruffie now that you didn't before?

• 24:15Speaker 06

  Well, we really didn't know how long they lived for. There was a whole lot of debate in the, in the scientific literature. These are scientists having a debate amongst themselves, let alone having a debate with industry. And so there was a, a view at one level that these fish were only living for sort of 20 or 30 years old. Other people were saying, hey, no, they're living over 100 years. We now know that these ruffie are very, very, very long-lived species. They're sort of living 100, 200 years old. I was actually speaking to a colleague of mine a few weeks ago who works on the orange ruffie and they've recently found a fish which was 225 years old.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 24:47Speaker 06

  Very long-lived and we didn't really appreciate that back at the time. And we also didn't realise how old they were when they reached sexual maturity. This is the time they first have come together in a sense, have baby orange ruffie. They reach sexual maturity at 30 years old. So if we're going out and catching and exploiting a population with such a long lifespan and a really slow amount of time to reach before they reach maturity, they're very prone to overfishing and this is something we've only really begun to appreciate now.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  So I'm, I'm, I've been constantly reminded as I've been researching this story of that aphorism, that you, you know, you, my mother told me when I was broken-hearted about losing my first boyfriend, there's plenty more fish in the sea, darling. Is that true or, or can fish face potential extinction?

• 25:31Speaker 06

  They can. And that's definitely a misnomer, that that whole saying is plenty more fish in the sea. That's really led us to many of the issues we've got in our oceans worldwide. There's this view that we can just go and exploit more and more resources elsewhere. And so historically, we've fished our coastal waters and once they're depleted, we've had bigger and better boats, we can go further abroad and we can catch fish there. Now, there's not a single place around the whole globe that's not exploited by fishers. We've got people trawling boats going everywhere. And what we see is that on a global scale, the number of fisheries and number of fish stocks, these are a word we use to describe a population of a species. The number of them that are in, in serious trouble is, is increasing. And so there is not any more fish in the sea. We need to get better at managing what we've got.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  So tell me about ruffie stocks now. Where, where are they at in, in both in Australia and in the world since?

• 26:19Speaker 06

  Well, it's, it's really interesting. There was obviously a really high levels of exploitation in the late 80s and early 90s and massive catches of ruffie were taken out of Australian waters. There was subsequently a collapse and the fishery was closed. We've now done a, a number of, well, colleagues at CSIRO, for example, have been doing a number of assessments and surveys to try and work out how many ruffie are out there. And we can see that there is an increase in ruffie abundance and such that now the fishery's been opened up in parts of eastern Tasmania. So hopefully that means that things are on the mend for orange ruffie here in Australia.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  And I just want to ask you, John, when you look at this photograph, what is it that you see?

• 26:54Speaker 06

  I see an abundance, I suppose at one level, or an eye level, I can see a bounty from the ocean. Now, as we know, we can look at this through a historical lens, we can see it's a real story of over-exploitation. The sheer numbers of fish of these ruffie that were caught during this time is, is mind-blowing. So I suppose it was, hopefully with lesson learnt, and I think there has been a really strong lesson learnt from the way we manage our fisheries here in Australia.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Do you consider yourself retired?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Basically.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Semi.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  It, it's hard to imagine what else fisher people do in their retirement.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  No, well, some of them buy a tenny and they become an amateur.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  A recce.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Yes, that's it.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  My thanks to guest Julie Forte, Associate Professor Anna Clark and Dr John Morangello. This episode of Shooting the Past was produced by Michelle Rayner with production assistance by Sophie Couchman and sound engineering by Angie Grant.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  And don't forget that to view the photograph from today's episode, you can head over to ABC Listen. Shooting the Past is an ABC Radio National production, recorded on unceded war-undary land.

• 28:22Speaker 06

  There are a lot of perfectly sensible reasons to start a war. Territory, resources, pigs. Wait, what? You've got to pay for that pig. Yes, a pig, a pastry shop, a football game, sometimes even birds.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  They don't seem to be easy to kill.

• 28:38Speaker 06

  History is filled with some stupid wars. On the No One Saw It Coming podcast, we are diving right into them with me, Mark Fennell.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  Search No One Saw It Coming podcast on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  You've been listening to an ABC podcast. Discover more great ABC podcasts, live radio and exclusives on the ABC Listen app.