What We Can't Reveal We Can't Heal

with terrybrown @shakasenghor @bhorowitz Given recent events around George Floyd and far beyond, this special episode of the a16z Podcast features Shaka Senghor, a leading advocate for criminal justice reform, and Terry Brown, a former police officer in East Palo Alto -- who, incidentally, both grew up in Detroit but ended up on different sides of the law -- in conversation with a16z co-founder Ben Horowitz. The conversation goes deep and on the ground...

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Sonal?

  Today's episode of the A6 and Z Podcast is a special episode given recent protests around George Floyd and well beyond, and is hosted by Andreessen Horowitz co-founder Ben Horowitz, in conversation with Shaka Sinngor and Teri Brown. Ben shares more details about our guests in the introduction that follows, and they spend the first few minutes also discussing their backgrounds before going into a deep and nuanced discussion. Please be aware that the conversation includes details of violence, in case you have young children listening. The first voice you'll hear after Ben's will be Shaka's, followed by Teri's. Please also note that his sound improves after the first few minutes.

• 0:44Ben Horowitz?

  Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining us. I think this is one of the most important conversations we can have right now. Everybody is super emotional about the goings-on in the world, but we've been talking about really, really difficult, important issues at a very high surface level. We're going to change that with this conversation. We're going to get very deep with the experts who know what's going on at the ground level. And my two guests today are, first of all, Shaka Sinngor, who has touched every part of the criminal justice system, in one form or another, from the police, to holding cells,

• 1:25Ben Horowitz?

  to solitary confinement, and understands what it is to be on that side of police. And my other guest is Teri Brown, who spent many years as a police officer in East Palo Alto, protecting the citizens there against some of the toughest criminals in the country. At the time he was policing, East Palo Alto was the murder capital of the United States, and thanks to, very specifically, Teri's work, that murder rate was reduced by 90%. So we've got two great guests here to get started. And let me first say, Shaka, could

• 2:07Ben Horowitz?

  you kind of give us your full background, and then just kind of give us some of your perspective about what it meant to be an African-American, growing up in Detroit?

• 2:20Ben Horowitz?

  With that culture and the corresponding police culture.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks. Good morning, fellas. Really great to be on this call and really talk about what's going on in the country. So just contextually, you know, I grew up in the city of Detroit, grew up in a household where, you know, was faced with, you know, abuse from my mother and my father being complicit in that. And, you know, when I was about 14 years old, I decided to run away. And thinking, you know, at that time that someone would see this smart, you know, honor roll scholarship kid and, you know, welcome me into their home and raise me with love and care that I think are children are deserving of. Unfortunately, I found myself being seduced into the drug culture. This was when crack cocaine first hit the Midwest around 1986.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  And within the first six months of being in that culture, my life completely changed. You know, my childhood friend was murdered. I was robbed at gunpoint. I was beaten nearly to death. And despite those things, I found myself unable to navigate my way out of the culture. And when I was 17 years old, I got shot multiple times standing on the corner on my block on the west side of Detroit. And 16 months later, I found myself on the other side of the gun, you know, and I shot and tragically caused a man's death after an argument over a drug deal that I refused to make. I was subsequently arrested, charged with open murder, and sentenced to 17 and 40 years in prison for second degree murder.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  When I went in prison, I, you know, honestly, I was angry. I was frustrated. I was, you know, all the things you can imagine a 19-year-old kid being when the reality of a poor decision, you know, confronts that part of my life. And so I entered prison, got into a whole bunch of trouble early on. My first five years in prison, I accumulated about 25 misconducts. I had my security level increase from up to maximum security where I was on 23-hour lockdown.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  But I was fortunate, you know, I met some incredible mentors during that time that guided me to books. And that was kind of like the beginning stages of me reimagining my life. Uh, but it was a long, it took a long time, you know, and eight years into my sentence, I got into a conflict with a correctional officer. And that conflict escalated relatively quickly to a fight. And, you know, I ended up, uh, beating him and this officer ended up having to be rushed to the hospital. I was taken to solitary confinement where I remained for the next four and a half years. And so that was 23 hour lockdown and about a six by nine cell, one hour out in the rec cage, which is basically the equivalent of a dog kennel.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  And three hour, three showers a week, three 10 minute showers a week. And that was pretty much my life for four and a half years. You know, and it shaped a lot of who I am today in regards to just what I chose to do while I was in that environment. Fast forward, got out of solitary in 2004 and prepared for the next, what I thought would be, uh, four years of, of working to get out of prison, but it ended up being another six years. And so 2010, this month, actually, 2010, I was released from prison at the total of 19 years, the total of seven years in solitary confinement. And so, you know, a lot of what we're seeing right now in the country, I've witnessed, I've experienced it.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  You know, I've been arrested for doing the wrong things. I've been beat by police for not doing anything at all. And so it's something that, that's played a significant role in my life, in my family, in my community. Uh, you know, the level of abuse and policing in Detroit was, uh, unbelievable, you know, just, you know, now looking back as an adult and as a father of a son. But I think there was just a lot of deeper cultural implications that allowed a lot of these things to take place. And then just some systemic things that was happening. I mean, you know, I was born a few years after Detroit came out of one of the worst riots in American history. And that riot was based on, uh, some of the abuses that was happening back then.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  So it's not shocking that we're seeing, uh, some of the civil unrest right now. Um, but growing up with it, you know, and I talked to the men in my family and the guys I grew up with. Literally, every one of us have been, you know, accosted, roughed up, choked, slammed on the hood when we were actually, actually doing nothing. I mean, there's been times I've done a lot of things and got arrested, but also, you know, there was a lot of ass kickings handed out, uh, just for being in the neighborhood and then pulling up on the block.

• 6:57Ben Horowitz?

  Thank you. It really sets the tone for the conversation. And amazingly, Terry, where did you grow up? I know the answer.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Amazingly Detroit as well, on the west side.

• 7:06Ben Horowitz?

  At about the same time.

• 7:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm, I'm a little before Shaka. I'm a, obviously a seventies product. I, I grew up in a two family, uh, two parent household. So, you know, I had some real good experiences, family experiences, but once you step outside of the home, you're privy to some of the things that, um, Detroit has to offer. Um, I gravitated towards, um, sports, uh, played football and basketball, but you still weren't, um, uh, removed from dealing with Detroit PD. Um, when I was growing up in Detroit, we had, um, the big four. And the big four, um, these were the knuckle draggers. These guys were six, four, six, five, six, six,

• 7:53Speaker 03

  250 pounds. And they just wreaked havoc on the city of Detroit. And, you know, there have been experiences where I was in junior high school, going far back to junior high school. And, um, big four rolled up on us. We were sitting on the corner. One of my friends was smoking and the guy, one of the guys, uh, one of the police officers, um, said, told him he was too fucking young to be smoking and took the cigarette out of his hand. When he took it out of his hand, he broke his finger. So, you know, those are the things that we had to deal with. Um, you know, you just, I mean, Detroit, um, growing up for me, I just never talked to the police. If the police came around, I was out, you know? And either you were going to be around, you were the slower one, or

• 8:38Speaker 03

  you were the faster one to get away. And, you know, I was always the faster one to get away. But like I said, I, I gravitated towards sports and I tried to stay out, out of the streets as much as I can, or as I could at that time. Um, but, you know,

• 8:54Speaker 03

  You know, when I look back and I, and I see these types of things, um, you know, like Shaka said, you know, we, I've been through two riots in Detroit and, um, a guy that I grew up with in my neighborhood, um, his death sparked the riot. It wasn't by the hands of Detroit PD, but it was by, by the hands of someone else and it just sparked the riot in our neighborhood. And, um, you just knew martial law was coming. You just knew to stay off the street, um, because Detroit PD just had a reputation of, of, um, not even asking questions, not trying to serve and protect. They were going to wreak havoc, kick your ass and possibly kill.

• 9:33Ben Horowitz?

  So Terry, after kind of those experiences, growing up with those kinds of police, what made you want to, you know, go into law enforcement?

• 9:46Speaker 03

  You, you know, it, it really wasn't anything honorable. Um, my brother came back, I was working for a company in, in, when I was living in San Jose and, um, I was just kind of, uh, tired of doing what I was doing. I was working in accounting. My brother, he, um, took the test for law enforcement, not really, I don't really know why he did, but he came back and said, um, you know, hey, he just came back from taking the, the police test and, and, uh, he thought that I should go and do it. And my brothers always had this thing with me. I grew up fighting a lot.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  He, um, told me about, you know, taking a test and I, and I sat there and I thought about it. I said, wow, I'm sitting in a chair eight, 10 hours a day. I said, I could actually get into some physical activity and not be arrested for it. I was 22 years old and, and again, I don't, I didn't really have a lot of interaction with police officers.

• 10:43Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  So I, I knew that it was a physical activity type of profession and, and I said, hmm. Let me go take the test. I take the test and pass. Um, and I started my career off in, in the jails in Santa Clara County.

• 10:58Ben Horowitz?

  Hmm.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Where at one part, you know, they don't like to, you know, say this, but I was a part of the goon squad.

• 11:05Ben Horowitz?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  I started lifting weights at that point and uh got bigger and, you know, young, big, strong and thought, you know, that I could take on the world. But, you know, even then I realized that I had a connection with people that were locked up. And I think the connection at that point for me was they look like me, you know, and so, uh, but it wasn't until I got to East Palo Alto that I started to realize that a community like East Palo Alto, I was vested in because it, it wasn't a them versus me or us type of thing as far as I was concerned. It was, you know, wow, this is me. You know, this is who I am. When I look at them, I see me.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  And so you start to um, deal with people differently at that point and not the way that they trained you to deal with people. When I became a deputy sheriff, the biggest thing as a jailer was don't let them know your first name. Don't let them know that you're married. Don't let them know you have kids because they'll use that again. When I got to East Palo Alto, it wasn't a them versus me. I was already mentally, emotionally invested in the community. So I was there really in, in its truest sense to serve that community. And so I police differently.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  You know, that didn't resonate well with some of your, you know, my, my peers. But at the same time, they really couldn't say shit to me. You know, because I had a volatile mentality. You got something to say to me and

• 12:46Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  you know, we'll handle it. You know, so I was a little different.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  You know what, you know what's interesting about, about hearing that is, uh, so two things. One, the goon squad, you know, here it is, you way on a west coast and there's a goon squad in the jail and in Wayne County Jail in Detroit, the goon squad. And, and basically, you know, that was a squad that came in busting heads, kicking ass, you know, for, for small things, even just first going through the jail. It's like, yo, I'm already arrested, you don't have to brutalize me. Well, that's part of the culture. Uh, but the other thing you said that really resonated with me is like being able to see yourself in people you were meeting at their worst moment. And I, and I, I remember every police encounter I've ever had, both good and bad.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  But I remember this, this one time I got arrested, you know, and it was, it was a young black police officer. And I remember him just, he, he, he arrested me, put me in handcuffs, put me in the back of the car and then he took the handcuffs off me. And he was like, you know, you, you, you got a future that's bright. It's all about the decisions you make. And I never forgot what that felt like for him to actually see, you know, that I was really a kid, you know, and that I wasn't this threat and I wasn't somebody that should be getting roughed up. I was actually somebody that needed guidance, you know, and unfortunately I, it, it wasn't able to stay connected because of the reasons you named, you know, you can't get their first name and their, you know, phone number and all those different things, but I remember how that made me feel.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  And so that's one of the things that sticks with me to this day when I'm working to solve these problems, that I have met officers who actually come from the communities that they police and actually care about people. And so I know that there's different narratives and unfortunately they just get swallowed up.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I think that, you know, when I look at my peers, so on one hand you have, you know, black officers and on one hand you have white officers and the black officers typically did come from, you know, the community. Interesting enough for me, I lived in East Pollo Alto some of those years that I worked there. So the guys on the streets that I was dealing with, they knew where I lived. As a matter of fact, um, I can even go back to a scenario where one guy was one of the biggest dope dealers in, in East Pollo Alto. He asked me to go on a cruise with him. And I told him, I said, hey, I can't go on a cruise with you. First of all, I knew that he was under federal indictment too. I mean, he was about to get arrested, you know?

• 15:21Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  So I say, I say, hey, Mike, I can't go on a cruise with you, you know? But I think that's how, that's the light that they saw me in. And so I just wanted to be someone that they could call on if they needed help. And Shaka, you said something that was interesting, and I've always believed that. I came into people's lives at the point in time when they really needed it, where they're their most vulnerable. And so whether either either I was arresting them, or I was, they were a victim of someone, or some group, and I was there to help.

• 15:59Ben Horowitz?

  So, you know, the, the interesting thing about this, Terry, and I know, so, you know, for those of you listening, Terry's still friends with the other side who were on the crime side when he was a police officer. So that's how long those relationships go. But here's the interesting thing. The police are trained in this one way that you described to be kind of the enemy of the kind of people you're going after and not give them your name, or, you know, your address, or all these kinds of things. But you ended up being the most effective, like when East Palo Alto had the big crime problem, you, the one who went against the training, were the one who solved it. Like, how did that work? How did that unfold?

• 16:41Speaker 03

  So part of when I was in East Palo Alto, I was a homicide detective. And so, like you said, Ben, in 1992, we were the murder capital, you know, in the US. And so, but by that time, I had already developed relationships with people. So in developing those relationships, you develop trust. And, you know, a lot of times, those guys would call me or come to me and say, hey, are you looking for me? Is there a problem? And I would tell them. And they have, you know, at that point, they, they have an opportunity to either run or, you know, do what they do, but.

• 17:17Ben Horowitz?

  But they gotta remember you're fast.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, they, yeah, I had, one of the things I had was Roadrunner. But, you know, the, the thing is, is that, you know, I understood relationships and I understood that it wasn't them against us. And I understood that that's me and how I, you know, how I treated people is how I want someone to treat my mother. How I want someone to treat my brother, you know, on the street. And one of the things you constantly hearing right now with the protesting is we don't have a voice. And so I wanted to be that voice for people in the community in which I served.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  And I thought that that was important because I, I believe that some officers, mostly white officers, weren't going to hear people. They, they saw people in East Palo Alto who they dealt with as criminals. And they deal, they deal with criminals a certain way. One of the things I always said, drug dealers or whatnot on the street, those guys aren't stupid. They're not dumb. They make bad decisions, but some are really smart. Ben, you know, guys in Oakland who were very, very, very smart ran a, a supreme criminal enterprise, you know?

• 18:40Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah. Shaq is one of the smartest people I know.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, it is easy for police to deal with people like that by saying that, you know, they're dumb and they're stupid because they're dope dealers. No, no. Sometimes, you know, we just made bad mistakes as people and the brilliance get lost in that.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I also think, you know, it, it's so many different layers to what happens and how people end up in the streets. You know, like I was an honor roll scholarship student. I could have been, you know, anything I, I dreamed of at that time with the right support structures in place and things of that nature. And, and I think it's, it's important, but you know, one of the things as you were talking, I was thinking about our childhood back in Detroit. You know, when I was growing up, I remember the idea that I had of police. And I thought it was like, you know, these were the heroes. These were superheroes. This was something to aspire to. They were, you know, doing good in the community. And then something changed and just culturally, everything changed.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  And it went from you would see officers who would actually, you know, just be in the neighborhood and say hi, you know, speak to your family by their last name, you know? And then it went from that to this militarized, you know, way of engaging in the communities. And there was also at that time, a lot of different cultural things happening in Detroit outside of the police. It was white flight where people were moving out of the communities. And you just saw this dramatic shift where the militarized approach to policing became the norm. You know, you see many tanks in the neighborhood during drug raids and, you know, people hopping out, basically dressed like RoboCop.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  And that mentality has dramatically changed policing, I think. I don't think that neighborhood, community connection exists anymore. And I think that's part of what we're seeing around the country.

• 20:41Speaker 03

  You know, historically, when you look at law enforcement, what happened specifically, you know, with the riots in Detroit, the Watts riots and things of that nature, policing, remember how people used to get out on the beat and walk the beats? After those riots, they retreated to the cars.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  So when you're walking, you're actively engaging people out in the community, whether it's the merchants, whether it's residents, you're engaging them constantly. But what happened after the riots, they retreated to the cars. When you get that, that steel barrier around you, you kind of feel like you don't have to get out. You know, you're just riding around all day long and you're, you know, you're collecting your paycheck. And, you know, then you really get that them versus us type of mentality. Cause I don't have to engage you. If I engage you, I'm gonna arrest you. You know, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna violate your civil, you know, your civil, your civil liberties and stuff. So the thing is, they retreated.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  And so there was no longer a, a relationship or a bridge to that relationship, you know, being built or even being nurtured, you know? Uh, and you're talking, what, the sixties? So you're talking thirty, forty, fifty, sixty years later. And like you said, police uniforms are different now. They got all the um, the um, military look with the uh, high-powered rifles now. You know, when I came into law enforcement in eighty-six, I had a six-shooter. That was it. So now, you know, now they have some high-powered weapons. Granted, the weapons on the street have changed. I get that, you know, but it's just the look.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  And if you have the look, but you don't have the relationships, that's a problem. If you have the look and no relationships, the people in the community no longer have a voice. If, if we didn't approach police in our day, and they didn't look like that, can you imagine what people want? I mean, people don't want to approach police nowadays, you know, for fear of being killed.

• 22:44Ben Horowitz?

  Well, let's talk about that a little bit. So in the black community, police are like generally the enemy. They're viewed very negatively compared to sort of, you know, outside of the community. And how does that end up affecting the relationship?

• 23:01Speaker 02

  I think it has a dramatic effect, you know? When I, when I think of like my experiences, even now, like, and I'm like, you know, I'm no longer in street culture and been far removed from that for over thirty years now. You know, the, the cultural reality is what we're seeing happening right now is the culmination of over four decades of bad policing in the black community. And, you know, I just think about when I go home and I see a police car, unless it's like a black police who I actually know, but I know a lot of now, you know, there's always that anxiety, you know? And it's, and it's deeply rooted in relationships of accountability, you know? And I, I tell people this all the time. Imagine you getting roughed up and then you're like, okay, I'm gonna file a complaint.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  And then you gotta go to the same precinct that the officer works at and file the complaint and expect some type of outcome and it's not. And so there's been so much distrust over the years. And then the, the violation of civil rights, like a, a part of that is culturally in a sense that... I remember the first time I got assaulted by an officer, I was fourteen years old. And, you know, I, I mean, I was, I was, I was in the wrong area. I was actually in the drug house, but it was no drugs. And so they raided the house. They didn't find anything. So what they did is they kicked our ass because they didn't find anything. And then they kicked my ass, took me home. And culturally, this is also a problem within, you know, the family structure, at least my family

• 24:30Speaker 02

  structure, was my, my father's response to it was, if you would have been home, it wouldn't have happened. And part of that is kind of like this old school model of, of, of raising children in the community where any neighbor could rough you up and, you know, if they thought you were doing something wrong, they can drag you by the ear home and things like that. And that also extended to the police. And so there was no complaint filed, you know, for getting hit in my nuts at 14 years old by this damn police officer. And so not only did it create distrust for police, it also created distrust for, uh, my parents' ability to defend me when they were wrong. And what I think that we have done is, even

• 25:12Speaker 02

  if we're suspected of doing something wrong, we get roughed up, it's victim blaming. It's kind of like, why were you on a corner? As opposed to, why was the officer not, you know, honoring protocol and not honoring that, you know, you have civil rights to not be abused and right to due process. And so because that's been normalized in our community, what happened, what we seen was when Rodney King got beat on, on, you know, with this video, we like, okay, now we got you all. Everybody can see it. This is what we've been trying to tell y'all. And then literally, years later, we're in the same exact situation over and over again. And so it's not these, you know, one-off murders that's really driving

• 25:54Speaker 02

  what's happening. It's the accumulation of brutality that has been an accepted norm in these communities. And I promise you, you can, you can, and this is what I, I always be wanting the news to do, is like, go just talk to the, to the guys in the hood and just ask them this question, how old were you the first time you got abused by police in your neighborhood? And I can guarantee you that it's probably going to be at least 85 to 90% rate of young black men that'd be like, yep, I've been choked, I've been kicked, I've been grabbed, I've been pulled over, you know? And so it's, it's this idea that we don't have the same rights as people in other communities, and that's driving a lot of the anger and the fear.

• 26:38Ben Horowitz?

  And Terry, like from your perspective, like what is, what does that end up meaning on the police side when there's that level of distrust from the community for what you're doing when you're ostensibly trying to keep people safe?

• 26:51Speaker 03

  You know, it's also a lot tougher for a black officer than it is a white officer because there's a lot more expectations for us in doing our jobs, keeping the peace, and being that voice of reason and, you know, voice of strength, standing up for, you know, against your, you know, your, your brothers in arms. I've been called every name in the book, you know, including Uncle Tom and stuff like that because, you know, I was wearing a uniform and they didn't know my background.

• 27:26Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  You know, none of those guys knew where I came from or the environment that I came from, a city like Detroit. But there's a lot of distrust. Like Shaka said, you know, I used to tell people all the time, people would come to me and say, you know, hey, you know, so and so did this to me, so and so said that to me. And I would tell them, go to the police station, file a complaint. Okay. And they wouldn't. But I told them, I said, you will file a complaint against me? And it's because we had a, they would. It was a relationship. They felt, it felt like, you know, I was just like them. So if they

• 28:08Speaker 03

  filed a complaint against me, it would be dealt with. But they wouldn't go file a complaint against that white officer. And I used to always tell them, that's like, that's, to me, that's a form of slavery. You know, you don't want to tell on Massa, but you want to tell on me, you know? And so, you know, it was really tough because there was a lot of expectations, like we could, we as black officers could change the world, change the PD. And that was very difficult, you know, because police departments are very traditional. To get things changed is almost an act of Congress, you know? And so, you know, just like anyone, you're, you're trying to go there, do your job. Some people can try to

• 28:53Speaker 03

  keep their nose clean. Others, you know, like me, I was vocal. And so it made my ten year in law enforcement, you know, pretty rough sometimes, you know, because I, I, I would speak up. But yeah, to answer your question, Ben, there, there is no voice. There's a lot of mistrust because of the behavior of law enforcement. And, and I don't care who you are, you've seen it. You may, you, you, you've seen the, the differences in treatment. You've seen the diff- case in point, no one can ever tell me that possession of crack cocaine

• 29:37Speaker 03

  is worth more of a, of a, um, prison sentence than powder cocaine. All they do is put that point five on there and it tells everyone in the justice system that this person, um, you know, probably is black. So he's gonna, he or she is gonna get more years than that person being charged with, uh, eleven three fifty of the penal code, California penal code for your listeners. You know, but once you slap on that eleven three fifty point five, yeah, your sentence is gonna be much higher. You're gonna be dealt with more severely than a person who's, who's in possession of a powder cocaine.

• 30:16Speaker 03

  It's, it's since, it's, it's a whole system full of mistrust. It's, it's disproportionate in, in terms of how you're dealt, dealt with. And then you're talking decades, centuries of misuse, abuse. And, you know, I don't know what the answer is. Uh, sometimes you think you may know the answer, but then something else happens and you realize, wow, they've taken it to a totally different level, you know?

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes, it's, uh, you know, one of the things I, I think a lot about is like, The cultural understanding of what policing is in America is inaccurate. And you know, what what I found problematic is that when these when these incidents happen. It's like, and we know it, right? So when I when I was in prison, I watched officers start from like their first day in, right? In prison, they start off with a red tag. So that's the indication that they're, you know, this is their first few weeks. And you see these kids and they're they're kids, they're young, they're coming in nineteen, twenty years old, starting their career. And you see them come in as innocent kids, curious, you know, trying to figure it out.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  And they're aligned with an officer who works there, right? And so and they get to to basically a role with different officers. And you can you watch them go from these innocent kids and then they the next phase is their grain tags, their next phase. And now they're actually a higher correction officer and they're, you know, doing things on their own. But you just watch them get sucked into this culture. And they begin to change and they begin to act like, you know, the rest of the culture. And it's it's just wild to witness that, watch somebody go from an innocent kid who had these, you know, probably dreams of doing good and and making people safe to being corrupted by a culture that's so deeply rooted, it's hard to even see outside of the culture.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  And so I think one of the things that happens in these instances, we're trying to address it as an individual person issue and when in reality, it's a cultural issue. Like, and if it wasn't a cultural issue, like George Floyd doesn't die that day because other officers that were present.

• 32:35Ben Horowitz?

  Would stand up.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Would not allow that and say, hey, man, what the fuck are you doing? Um, you know, you're overstepping the boundaries, like you don't, it's not necessary to arrest this man or detain him or whatever you're doing. And so culturally, we just have a very bad, you know, uh, situation. And, you know, the mistrust, the racial profiling, all those things feed the culture. But there's the militarization of the culture, you know, it's a lot of former veterans that are police officers, that are correctional officers, uh, and used to being in war zones, you know, and to your point earlier, Terry, you're meeting people in their worst moment, and it's hard to make a real connection unless you come from that culture, to understand a person in their worst moment, you know?

• 33:16Speaker 02

  And, you know, Ben and I, we, even we've had, we had experiences where, you know, we're at a concert, and we're backstage, like, you know, and Terry, you know how, how-

• 33:27Ben Horowitz?

  With credentials.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Credentials, with all, with like, super credentials, not even just regular credentials.

• 33:31Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, like, good that, that Kanye gave them, us himself.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, first move. And, you know, I walk Felicia to the bathroom, and I'm accosted by, you know, the security who come out of that culture, and I'm like, dude, I have all the credentials in the world. And they're like, no, blah, blah, blah, and they escalated instead of just like being, hey, sir, like, let me see your credentials. And, you know, and I called Ben, I'm like, yo, bro, this situation is about to be bad. And then, just from a culture standpoint, their response to Ben was different, you know? And so, like, that, like, what does that do to a person? Like, obviously, I'm operating out of a different understanding, but 20 years ago, like, that's escalated to a full-on brawl, you know?

• 34:19Speaker 02

  And so, it's just a cultural reality that is hard for people to break down when they're angry or frustrated, or they're, you know, everything is, is seen through the lens of, you know, it's black versus white, and it's really not that cut and dry, it's deeper than that, you know?

• 34:35Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah, that's very, very powerful.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I think that, you know, i- i- it's interesting because, you know, we're told how to react, how to respond to abuse. And that's tough, because i- if you're being discriminated against, and you, you, in addition to that, you, you don't, you know you don't have a voice. So you know that things aren't going to change. So you know there's really, you know, in many ways, you feel, you know, uh, hopelessness. There's only one reaction, and that's to fight.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  That's the, is, is, is beyond just lashing out is to actually fight. Because that fight is for survival. And so, you know, like you said, Chuck, when you look at George, he was fighting, you know, he, he was crying out. And you had three officers who were standing there, knowing that this guy is hurting. He's crying out. And they stood by and watched.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  The interesting thing that I saw from photographs and from the video in that particular situation was that

• 35:59Speaker 03

  he was not a, first of all, he was handcuffed. He was not a problem. If he was a problem, those other officers would have engaged. So this guy is really, he's not, he's applying pain for no reason. You know, he's not applying pain to get this person under control. He's simply applying pain because he could.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that, and that's the thing that, that really gets so many people so angry because you know exactly what it is when you've been in that situation, you know? I was talking earlier about, about my prison experience and this, and this is all, they're all part of the same kind of culture. And, you know, I remember this officer literally tried to break my arm. Unnecessarily, like, literally, man, didn't even have any beef. I had got into a fight with a, with a neighbor. Um, and got took to solitary and when you go to solitary, they put you in a shower cage and make you strip. But you're cuffed and you have to, and they have to take the cuffs off. And basically what happened is in the midst of me fighting this guy, one of the officers jumped on my back and I kind of swung him off my back.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  And so they was like, oh, that's a sardonic staff. It wasn't like an intentional, like me beating him or whatever. And his colleague, when I got to solitary, he literally almost broke my arm, poured it through the slot, and I still have those scars like literally on my elbow, which I got, you know, tatted over. But I never forgot what that felt like to have somebody, you know, abused. And so when I ended up getting into the conflict with the officer that led to me going to solitary, like, again, it was him taking liberties with my body, you know, and it's something that, you know, we dealt, we deal with so much in the community, being slammed on the, on the hood of the trunk and being roughed up. And, you know, I asked this officer multiple times, like,

• 37:47Speaker 02

  don't put your, like, you're violating, and I'm explaining to him, I worked in the law library, like, you are violating this police policy directive, such and such. If you feel like I've done anything wrong, you're supposed to hit your personal protection device, call other staff. And he didn't do any of those things. Instead, he just kept escalating by, like, pushing his finger in my chest. And then I responded to that, you know, and I ended up beating him up really bad. And then I got sentenced to two more years and then time in solitary. And that, that sat with me for so long because I'm like, I didn't, I didn't escalate this thing. I defended myself, but I'm the bad guy. And I was labeled the bad guy. And I, I dealt with the consequences of that, which was two additional years added

• 38:29Speaker 02

  to my sentence and four and a half years in solitary, you know, time that I could never get back, you know. And so I was angry about that for a long time. And it really took a lot of healing to understand that this was systemic, you know, this happens all the time. And the crazy thing about it, when I went to court, there were witnesses around who were afraid to come testify because they were afraid that they were going to be abused by the, by the culture of officers in that environment. And even some of the officers who admitted to other people that they knew what happened was wrong, and that this officer had a track record of doing these things, they wouldn't come testify because of the

• 39:08Speaker 02

  brotherhood of, you know, officers that forces them to be silent when injustice is taking place, you know. And so, you know, what we're seeing over and over again is this reality played out. And one, one of the things Ben and I were talking about that, that I think is really super important, um, in my work, specifically, I've done a lot of work to really

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Make the system transparent, let people see what actually is happening. That people aren't criminals, that people aren't thugs. They make choices that are criminal, but it's reasons that people are making these choices. But more importantly, how does the system work? And we live in a society where we fund, I mean billions of dollars in corrections, policing. And you ask the average citizen, like, how does the system really work? And they don't know, and that's problematic. There are officers on the streets who have tons of complaints filed against them. And those complaints get sealed, they get hidden. The community does not know, okay, these two officers, this officer has a, a, a perfect record.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  This officer has thirty complaints, so we need to be aware of what this officer's, you know, behavior has been since they've been in the force. And like, that's problematic. I'm sure that's not that officer's first time putting his knee in somebody's neck. It's just the first time it was caught on camera, and it's the first time that it, you know, ended with a fatality. But I promise you, when they get to go on the trial and they go through his records, there's gonna be complaints that haven't been revealed, that's been ignored. And like, we have to have more transparency if this thing is ever to be healed. And not, and, because you can only create trust when there's honesty, when there's realness. Whatever you don't reveal, you can't heal.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  And so until we have that transparency, we're always gonna have a problem with policing in, in America.

• 41:00Ben Horowitz?

  And Terry, you know, actually, uh, uh, so what happens with a guy like that? Who does have a record of all these complaints and they never went after him? So, I mean, this guy who killed George Floyd had shot two other guys and had eighteen complaints filed against him, and nobody ever followed up. Why does that happen?

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Well, I, I think, again, this whole thing starts at the top. You know, you, you can't tell me if, if he shot two other people, that the chief is not aware of it.

• 41:35Ben Horowitz?

  Why does that happen?

• 41:37Speaker 03

  At some point, you obviously have to pull this guy off the street because there's a problem with either his decision-making, uh, ability, certainly training. There's something missing there that, that warrants this guy not being on the street. But I, I think also too, I was never in that type of culture. I saw one report where he had nineteen misconduct complaints. You know, that's extreme. There's a problem there. You know, he's a part of, you know, obviously good, good old boy system. But he's working for, he's working with his friends who are able to do that. I, I just think that there has to be some transparency with these types of things.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  You know, members on the community, uh, members in the community on some sort of, um, board. When you have these misconduct complaints. So there's just not, the police department, it's someone from the police department, it's someone from the city or county and someone from the community. And that way, everything is out in the open and you can't show them the rug. But, you know, I agree with Shaka, obviously there, there has been a problem for quite some time. This wasn't his first rodeo. And I, I just, to be honest with you, Ben, I don't know how stuff like that continues to get swept under the rug. In 2020,

• 43:02Speaker 03

  with all the stuff that's going on, um, you know, it, it's crazy, it's, it's, it's, I don't, I can't even comprehend that. You know, with all the cameras out there, with all the things that are going on, officers are still doing these types of things. These are people who just, they have no humanity. They have none. They don't, they're not there to serve the community at all. It's nothing about what they do and wearing that uniform and that badge. They're serving the community. I, I saw a news report this morning where this cameraman was simply doing his job.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  And this officer, who I assume was part of the secret service uniform division, I mean, went in on this guy physically and his partner grabbed him.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  And I think it's partly had the where of all that's saying, hey, wait a minute, hold on. We're in, we're doing this, we're having these problems because people are acting like you're acting right now.

• 44:05Ben Horowitz?

  The culture is that strong.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's that strong and that it runs that deep.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  I mean, they just had a video with the, did you see the video with the

• 44:13Speaker 03

  Right now.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Black woman officer and she had to snatch up one of her colleagues. It was like, what are you, what are you doing? Like, what, what the hell are you doing?

• 44:21Speaker 03

  You know, this is the thing, you talk to old people like me, like I said, I went into law enforcement, I went in the cabinet eighty six. The thing that I think about now versus when I was in, in law enforcement, and again, they had problems back then, of course. But the, one of the main problems I see now is it's lack of experience, they lack training. And you have a, a younger culture in the police department now. So when I got to my assignment in eighty seven, they had a guy who was there since sixty two. You know, so you had a difference in, in, in experience.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  And you know, you had people, you had veterans, I mean, I'm talking, you know, people have been there thirty years down to rookies. So you had the, you, you had people who can tell you, I had people who told me, hey, you can't do that. Don't take the debate on that, you know? Nowadays, if you look at police departments throughout the country, it's a young agencies. They're out there policing our communities, also in addition to that, who don't live in our communities. In addition to that, they don't look like us. So there's a huge gap in who's actually there to serve us.

• 45:39Ben Horowitz?

  So let, let me get to, you know, kind of the most confusing, difficult part because we have so much emotion right now in the country around this issue. And I think that emotion, you know, because it doesn't have a direction, is getting misdirected in a lot of ways. The most obvious way is, you know, the looting and like, let's increase.

• 46:04Ben Horowitz?

  Crime against people who have nothing to do with this. So, given it's such a hard, intractable problem that we've been living with for so long. It's a cultural problem. It's a systemic incentive problem. It's a training problem. You know, it's a problem of policing communities and culture that are foreign to them. You know, for people listening to this, where's the right place to direct that energy?

• 46:33Speaker 02

  No, that's a great question. You know, I've watched the news over the last few days and I've watched it shift from addressing the injustice to focusing on the looting, right?

• 46:42Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  And I've also seen the videos of these young kids who are coming into communities that they don't even live in and instigating the looting and instigating some of the vandalism and being held accountable. You know, in Long Beach, there was a young white kid, mask up. He's in there looting and tearing the building up and one of the, you know, older OGs was like, yo, you don't even live over here. Get from over here. There was a young white girl who was spray painting and vandalizing the builders and then spray painting Black Lives Matter and she's being confronted by black women saying, listen, they're gonna blame us for this.

• 47:18Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  And the thing is like, that doesn't make the mainstream news, but what does make the mainstream news is people going to steal sneakers or whatever the case may be. And so the media is also complicit in why people are so angry. Because it's like, all this good has happened. These positive protests, these peaceful protests. You shift the focus from that, which is the majority. The majority of these protests have been peaceful. You shift it to that, to a few scandalous shots of people running in and out of buildings. And now we're having a whole different conversation. I have so many people like, oh my God, they're looting. You know, this is going to undermine everything. I'm like, no, you have to be willing to understand what the news's purpose is.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  And the great thing is we have social media accounts that you can actually follow of people really on the ground that's doing peaceful protests that are walking arm in arm with some officers. There's officers who are stepping up in leadership. There's community members who are stepping up in leadership. You know, and so I think part of what we have here in this country is a narrative situation and a proximity, you know, the narrative of black men and black women in the media space has typically been either to entertain America or to be kind of like, you know, the thing that America could point to and say, see, these are criminals and thugs. And in the reality, these things are way more complex. So that that reaction to what's happening, people also not thinking that we're in

• 48:47Speaker 02

  a quarantine crisis and people have lost employment. People do not have a means to take care of themselves. Uh, these jobs are shutting down. So I'm like, if we're going to focus on eluding, let's actually focus on the people who can't even work right now in those spaces because there's no jobs. And really understanding what's happening. So, you know, it's like Tupac said, like, you know, people are hungry. Like, you can't be surprised if they're gonna, you know, steal something out of your garden and eat. It's a basic human, the need is to take care of and provide. But to misdirect attention from what the real issues are, those core issues, like, that's kind of the safety mechanism, the safety valve that the media has used forever to justify not dealing with the real shit.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  And until we deal with the real shit, we'll see this cycle repeat itself every few years. And at this point, it can be every month from now because people are desperate. And, and, you know, with quarantine happening and, you know, there's these injustices happening, it's just a really volatile cocktail right now, you know? But we have to be real with what is actually seen and being perceived. And that's not to say people have not been looting. But the narrative of how and who is not telling the whole story. And I think that's why social media has been so important. The technology has been so important because now people can tell their own stories, you know? And even, and I'll say this last, on the actual protest part,

• 50:15Speaker 02

  you're seeing a hyper violence that's being ordered. And I mean, we in a country, we're in a country where the right to protest peacefully and assemble peacefully is a constitutional right. And we're watching that right be stripped from people right in front of our eyes. And we're casually okay with that. You know, and you know, I don't even get into the whole political conversation. But to see people peacefully protesting and the police just rush them like a football, like it literally looked like a football game where they just like, the ball has been kicked off, go. And like, how can a citizen feel safe when this is the reality?

• 50:56Speaker 02

  That the people who are tax dollars fund are beating our ass because we're choosing to exercise the constitutional right. Same thing happened in California where we watched the police escalate an otherwise peaceful protest. And protests are inconvenient. That's the reality of what protests are. And they're designed to be inconvenient, but they're not criminal. And people shouldn't be being criminalized and treated as if they're wrong for exercising their constitutional right. And that's what we're seeing. Go clear these people out so I can take a photo out holding an upside down Bible.

• 51:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's ridiculous.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  At a church that's actually a social impact institution.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, you know, just to add to what Shaka is saying, you know, this is the thing. I think the media, I agree, is just as responsible because they're giving credence to these looters, these people that are causing all this destruction. And, you know, it's separate from the people who are rioting for a cause. The looters and the people who are breaking in stores, stealing sneakers and things, they don't care about George Floyd. They don't care about Sandra Bland. They don't care about the Michael Browns or Alma Aubrey's, Breonna Taylors. They don't care about that. It's not honoring their death, you know, it's not honoring their memory.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  But I, I think the writers, we as people, we need a voice. We need to be heard. And until that happens, right now, you know, and, and people are probably not gonna like this, but because of the people that's out there looting, because of people out there causing destruction, setting fires, those voices can't be heard because that's not the focus. The focus is to preserve property and, and protect lives. So, you know, it's getting lost in the narrative of what, what the problem is or what we think the problem is.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  But at some point, you know, we have to, or the, the protesters, the people out there are gonna have to police themselves. Those people are out there, they're doing those things, it's gotta stop. It's gotta stop. It makes no sense.

• 53:12Ben Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  And like Shaka said, you know, you got people who've been out because of the pandemic.

• 53:16Ben Horowitz?

  Big part of it.

• 53:17Speaker 03

  The interesting thing is now they're able to go back to work, but now they can't because the store is burned down. Or they can't go to work because they can't get in to an area where people are looting and doing all these destructive things. So, you know, a- again, sometimes we're our own worst enemies. But these voices aren't being heard, you know, and i- if the media or the journalists were to, uh, report on what the cause is, leave the bullshit aside, then maybe that can start a conversation towards the process that will lead to some sort of reform. Because I mean, there's so many things, we need police reform, prison reform, educational reform, economic reform.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  We need all those things. But it can't start if you're in this panic mode of protecting property and protecting people.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Yes, it's also, again, I think so much of this is cultural, you know, when you think about how the media operates in this space. They're running toward the most salacious thing that they can find. As opposed to talking about what's really happening. Like, there was a whole peaceful, you know, protests in Hollywood, you know? And, you know, these are my friends, these are people who I know personally, and I'm watching their IG accounts. And you're seeing this beauty of humanity coming together and saying, hey, these things must stop. That doesn't get the same coverage as somebody breaking in the local liquor store. And, you know, even when we're talking about this leadership gap of voices being lifted up. Part of the problem in America is that so much of our culture is driven by entertainment.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  And so specifically when it comes to black and brown people. When they say, okay, who's going to speak up about this? They're turning to entertainers as opposed to the people who actually are organizers and people who are really invested in the community that's connected to what's happening on the ground. So we're waiting on, you know, P. Diddy to make a statement. We're waiting on people who, you know, and it's great that they are using their platforms and their voice. But these people aren't the ones who are actually in the street. They're not the ones who are organizing. We need to hear from those people and not just the person that's angry and you hurry up and grab that person because they're animated and compelling. But there's so much thoughtful leadership out in these communities

• 55:34Speaker 02

  that gets largely ignored because the focus would rather keep the narrative going that, oh, these people are criminal, therefore it justifies the treatment that you see happening. It's okay for officers to go in busting heads because they're busting up buildings. And that narrative just makes things worse as opposed to actually dealing with what really happened. And I mean, even in tough communities. I can tell you, as much criminal activity happened in Detroit. That was the minority compared to what really happens culturally, you know? It's one of those cities that's, it's a beautifully rich cultural city that has had some crime problems, but it's the minority compared to the actual people there. Absolutely.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  But instead, people like on that negative. And so, you know, transparency and policing is important. Accountability and media is super important. And even outside this issue, we see that the media will say the most salacious thing to get ratings at this point. But I think those two things are something that's going to have to change if we want to see a real societal change.

• 56:42Ben Horowitz?

  Terry, what's the biggest change that we could make? We have 10,000 police forces across the United States. You know, if you were to say, like, what are the top things we could do to start to improve that?

• 56:54Speaker 03

  Improve what?

• 56:56Ben Horowitz?

  Policing. Just the culture of policing.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  You know, just like we said earlier, there has to be some transparency. It has to be some transparency, but also, you know, police cultures, police organizations, they have to own their own shit. You know, that's the main thing. You can't hide behind it. You can't sweep it away. You have to own it and understand that it's fucked up. There's a lot of problems. So because there's a lot of problems, I mean, until you say, yes, we have a problem, and make the discussions around those problems transparent, it's gonna be the same. I mean, it'll go away, but it's gonna come back. It's gonna rear

• 57:42Speaker 03

  its ugly head again. So I think transparency, I think ownership, and I think you have to have different groups, whether black and brown. You have to have different groups to make up some sort of forum, so everybody has a voice, so that no stone is left unturned, so that, you know, no one is abused or not heard. Because again, these riots that you see is because they don't have a voice. We don't have a voice in our own community, you know? So I think the biggest thing is transparency and definitely ownership.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  I think we also gotta lift up, like, the officers who have been leading, like, the right way. You know, I talked to the chief of police in Detroit, actually really incredible brother, and I've watched them work hand in hand with the community. You know, you see that all the time in a lot of these communities where there's actually officers who really are invested in the community. You know, we saw the sheriff in Flint, Michigan, he's like, yo, I'm coming out and I'm gonna march and I'm gonna walk with y'all, you know? So they know that there's a problem there, you know, they know it's real, you know, they know it's a cultural disconnect, and I think those voices have to be lifted up in the conversations as well, and really start figuring out, okay, how did they get, even in the midst of this culture?

• 59:05Speaker 02

  How do they learn to do what you said, you know, create relationships? Police with intention of doing good as opposed to policing with intention of finding bad. And I think those are things that training, you know, could really help, but it has to be the right training. Like, you know, we we in a world now where cultural diversity and inclusion conversations are the safe words, but clearly they're not enough. We need something deeper and beyond that. And that's that accountability from the community as much.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  You know, I think also too, the interesting thing is, you know, part of part of the problem is you have people who are policing a community that they really, um, they're not invested in, but they've never been a part of something like that. They've never seen it before. So they have to be intentional about going out, talking to someone who doesn't look like them, talk like they talk, dress like they dress, involved in the things that they're involved in culturally, get to know someone, get to know them, get to understand why this person thinks the way they think, do the things that they do. If you just go about your day and you're patrolling and you don't get to know anyone or get to understand, a

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  white officer can't understand what it's like to be a black officer or a black man in America. I get that. But you can make the effort to at least understand and hear me out, hear those candid comment, and it's sometimes going to be tough conversations, but just hear me out. That's a start. And I agree with you, um, too, Shaka. You know, there are a lot of officers who are in the department every day, go to work, and they and they try to do the best job that they can. It may not always be right, it may not always look pretty, but they're doing the best they can. James Craig, I've known him since he was an officer in LAPD.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  You know, he actually grew up in Detroit on the west side, as a matter of fact. So like you say, he's a good brother, tough job, of course, but I think he's up to the challenge. But, but I agree, I applaud the men and women who are out there in law enforcement, who are doing their jobs every single day, the best they can do. They're honestly to serve the communities.

• 1:01:26Ben Horowitz?

  Let's close on that. Thank you both. Such important knowledge to be out there right now. So, thank you, Shaka. Thank you, Terry. This has been the 16Z Podcast.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you for having me.