Pod Insights a16z Podcast a16z Podcast: Collectively Driving Change About this episode with Laurene Powell Jobs (@LaurenePowell) and Ben Horowitz (@bhorowitz)
Laurene Powell Jobs is, among many other things, founder and President of the Emerson Collective -- the social impact firm she founded to drive change and reform through philant...
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Hanne Tidnam? Hi and welcome to the A16Z Podcast. Today's episode is a special conversation with Laurene Powell Jobs, founder and president of the Emerson Collective, a firm she founded in 2004 to drive social impact through investments across a broad range of areas such as education, immigration, and the environment. Laurene Powell Jobs is interviewed by A16Z co-founder Ben Horowitz, and their discussion covers everything from Laurene's childhood in mountainous rural New Jersey and how it shaped her, to what the Emerson Collective is driven by and does, and why it's a collective for that matter. For more about Laurene Powell Jobs's work, see www.EmersonCollective.com. This conversation originally took place at our most recent summit event in November 2018.
0:44 Ben Horowitz? Welcome, everybody. I'm Ben, this is Laurene. Coming in, I was just talking to Laurene, I was saying, it's really hard to introduce her because she's not like our other co-investors like at all, in a good way. But she's got a much more kind of complex kind of thing that she does and background. So I could read the, I could say, well, you know, she's a media mogul, she's a tech investor, she's an education reformer and so forth. But you wouldn't even know really who she is if I just did it like that.
1:12 Speaker 02 And none of them would be really honest.
1:14 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, right.
1:15 Speaker 02 I don't think anybody would call me a media mogul, except you.
1:19 Ben Horowitz? But you are a media mogul, like technically. I'm so excited to be here, to be having this conversation because there is nobody else like this. And so you're in for a treat. Why don't we start at the beginning, back in West Milford, New Jersey, where you grew up. You didn't have the whole silver spoon. It's not the easiest childhood.
1:36 Speaker 02 We were solidly a middle-class family.
1:38 Ben Horowitz? Yeah. And what was that town like?
1:40 Speaker 02 West Milford, New Jersey, is about 20 miles west of the George Washington Bridge, and then another 10 miles north. If people don't know New Jersey, there is a mountainous part of New Jersey. And in fact, one can go skiing and one can ice skate. And so we did all of those things. We were just in the beginning of the mountainous parts. And so now, as an adult, looking back, it's lovely. It's wooded, it's wild. I grew up with three brothers who were very wild. So we had sort of this... This connection to nature and the natural world that we would all hope for our children. However, growing up there was also gritty
2:24 Speaker 02 and it had a lot of Jersey in the New Jersey experience.
2:27 Speaker 03 Jersey, like what is Jersey?
2:29 Speaker 02 It really did. It was kind of hard to scrap all. People had big hearts, but also, you know, big edges. And so you learn really quickly as a child where the boundaries are and which boundaries one shouldn't cross. We were, all of us, put to work really early, which was great. So we developed an extraordinary work ethic. As kids, you know, there were, in the end, my mom remarried and then we had a mixed, a blended family.
3:02 Speaker 03 Your dad passed away.
3:03 Speaker 02 My dad died when I was three in a plane crash. And so we ended up with six kids, like the Brady Bunch, three girls and three boys. But in order to have controlled chaos, we all had chores and we had very set times for eating and sleeping. And I shared a room my whole life and I shared a bathroom. There were six of us that shared one bathroom. And if you can imagine what it was like getting to school on time, it was a mess. That was sort of my childhood. I was always trying to eke out a little bit of privacy. And so now I can empathize with those in social media who would like to regain their privacy.
3:43 Speaker 03 Yes, from Facebook. Get out of my mouth from Facebook.
3:48 Speaker 02 It's a joke, it's a joke, people. Anyway, I think a lot of what shaped me from that experience in West Mulver, New Jersey. And then, you know, our big trip each year was going down the shore. We'd rent a little house and drive down there, you know, and get terribly sunburned. We were probably five blocks back from the ocean, but it was our favorite time. And then we'd drive back up in our station wagon back up to northern New Jersey. That was sort of circumscribed our life. Chores.
4:18 Speaker 03 And that one vacation and get sunburned.
4:21 Speaker 02 But we were steeped in core values of real dedication and a sense that there was... Always a way out, and that was through education. And that was communicated early on to me. And luckily, I loved books and I loved school. And I think I sought out teachers and tried to ingratiate myself and just, you know, find a little place where I could excel and where I could feel that there was a reward for the work that also gave me joy, which was, you know, doing school.
4:58 Ben Horowitz? Right, right, right. It wasn't just a chore. It was work with a benefit.
5:00 Speaker 02 That's right.
5:01 Ben Horowitz? That's a great inspiration. You went to University of Penn, which is like a super prestigious school.
5:06 Speaker 02 I did, I did.
5:07 Ben Horowitz? Difficult to get into that.
5:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, I was the first person in my high school to go to an Ivy League school. West Milford Township is massive and stretched all the way up to New York State. Probably 20% of our graduating class went on to any further schooling. Certainly not all four-year. A lot of them went on to trade school.
5:26 Ben Horowitz? Yeah. I was reading something that you said that I thought was very interesting. So when you were a kid, I guess you donated like $20 to the Southern Poverty Leadership?
5:34 Speaker 02 Law Center.
5:35 Ben Horowitz? Law Center, I mean, yeah. And they would send you letters.
5:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:39 Ben Horowitz? And the thing that you walked or that you were very focused on was, who got the opportunity and who didn't?
5:47 Speaker 02 Yes, because I was focused on it because they were focused on it.
5:50 Ben Horowitz? Yeah.
5:50 Speaker 02 SPLC had a huge impact in my young life because I read about them in, I think, The Reader's Digest. I think that's where I read about them. There was a profile on Morris Dees. So I saved up some newspaper money and I sent them for me, which was a lot of money at the time, $20. I think I was either in late middle school or high school.
6:14 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, $20 is a lot.
6:16 Speaker 02 I don't know if you remember, when you're a kid, getting mail was such an exciting thing.
6:20 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's before email.
6:23 Speaker 02 That's the only place that ever sent me any mail, that and one of my grandma's. So they would send me mail reliably, probably every quarter. Of course, it was a beautiful... Form letter, but it always told a story of justice meeting injustice. And opened my eyes to things that were going on in the world in the early 70s that I otherwise wasn't privy to. So I really hung on there everywhere. I remember saving all the letters from Morris Dees. And actually, one of my most wonderful moments, and it only just happened a couple of years ago, at Emerson Collective, we do all of our philanthropic giving anonymously.
7:02 Speaker 02 But we had been funding SPLC, and we decided that we wanted to do some teaching tolerance curriculum in partnership with them. And so one of our team members was actually talking to Morris Dees, who still works there. And so I said to her, you know, can I get on the phone with Morris Dees? I gotta tell him that he was the one. He planted that seed in me, that individual people could pay attention and engage and maybe do something about injustices that seem intractable or far away or impenetrable.
7:36 Ben Horowitz? Well, that's a great story. And, you know, coming from, and you're a big Bruce Springsteen fan, and it's really interesting that in his work, even though he's Bruce Springsteen, it's still all about New Jersey. And do you feel that way about your work, where that a lot of the inspiration is still from that time?
7:55 Speaker 02 A lot of inspiration, yes. Although I don't find that the work is necessary, all about New Jersey. But a lot of how I see the world and how I think about basic fairness comes from New Jersey. I think people actually want to know what's going on, and they have clearly held opinions, this is what I recall, and work hard, but also are open to hearing from other people because New Jersey was certainly a melting pot in the first wave of immigrants from Europe. And so they had to accommodate. It's not a glamorous place to be from, and so people weren't distracted by glamour or coolness in any way.
8:38 Speaker 02 Lyrics of Bruce Springsteen still echo through my head. You know, it's sort of, it's one of the soundtracks of my life, I think. So he pops up when I do not expect him to pop up, you know, when I'm observing a situation. But to your point, a lot of the work that I do references something that I learned a little over 20 years ago from College Track. And I think it's true to say that all of the work that we do at Emerson Collective now is informed and certainly influenced and shaped by what was learned at College Track. And so maybe College Track is my New Jersey.
9:17 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, interesting. And so tell us about College Track and how, what you learned, what you tried to do, and then what you learned, and then how you moved it to be the entire Emerson Collective?
9:28 Speaker 02 Sure. It's sort of a beautifully long and winding story because it all took place probably starting about 22 years ago. After graduate school, I was running a natural foods company. And perchance, I met the California Teacher of the Year. She was teaching at a local high school. And I had not ever visited a high school in California because I had moved just for graduate school. She asked me if I could come and talk to her students, that all of her students in this one class were from East Palo Alto. And this was at Carl One High School, which is where all of the East Palo Alto students
10:03 Ben Horowitz? And that's when East Palo Alto was super dangerous, right? That's right around the time of the murder capital.
10:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, right around that time. I jumped at the opportunity because when I was at Stanford, I found it really odd to have the juxtaposition of Palo Alto and East Palo Alto. Because I had moved to Palo Alto from New York City, where all the demographics are right on top of each other. And so you can have one block of rich and one block of poor, and people really mix. And it felt really awful and awkward to have 101 dividing. This socioeconomic group from this socioeconomic group. So I said to her, yes, I'd love to. I'd love to come and talk to them. She told me they were seniors. It was September of their senior year and they were all going to college. So I said, well, what do you want me to say? And she said, just tell them about what college is like and what it's like to go to graduate
10:51 Speaker 02 school and what it's like to start your company. So I said, easy, okay. So I went and I started talking to them about college and just wondering if they were excited and where they had visited and who they knew. And I could tell I was starting to get some blank gazes and I thought, I'm losing my audience. So I said, okay, guys, help me out here. How many of you have visited a college? Maybe a few. How many of you know somebody that's in college? Maybe one or two. There were 35 students in this class. And I said, okay, how many of you have already taken your SATs? And it was no one. And I said, okay, how many of you are going to take your SATs? It's already September, so you must be studying. No one. And then I said, do you guys know that you have to take your SATs and you have to do these standardized tests in order to go to college?
11:36 Speaker 02 And they said, well, we heard about it, but no. Then the teacher said, you know, we were going to talk about this. I thought, well, this is a bizarre lack of information to give to college-bound seniors. So I said, guys, how many of you have visited with the college counselor to talk this through? No one. As a result of Prop 13, California started cutting all nonessential portions of their education system, which included arts and drama and PE and college counselors in addition to science labs and higher mathematics.
12:12 Ben Horowitz? And it is amazing on that proposition 13 was like in the late 70s.
12:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:17 Ben Horowitz? What a lasting impact.
12:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. And we're living with that legacy today. So I told the students I would come back every Friday afternoon and I would be their college counselor. And so I did that for the next eight weeks. And what I discovered was of all the students, the 35 students, only two students had actually taken the courses that they needed to take in order to apply to a four-year college. So 33 students had missed a year of English or math past Algebra I, or no one had taken a lab science. No one ever told them what classes they needed to take.
13:01 Speaker 02 They were all graduating, so they all had sufficient credits, but they didn't have the credits that lined up to apply to a four-year college. So for them, we got them to apply to a two-year college, but it was such colossal waste and it was just such an awareness that I had immediately that this is actually a solvable problem. This is lack of access to the kind of information and guidance that can be provided for all of these students. So I met with subsequently juniors and sophomores and freshmen, and then I talked to parents at back-to-school night. And I just did this as a volunteer because I thought, this is something I can do. I can address this problem. I know this stuff. But then there were layers of issues that I started to become aware of
13:45 Speaker 02 with a friend of mine, Carlos Watson. We started visiting in community.
13:50 Ben Horowitz? CEO of Ozzy.
13:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. He now runs Ozzy. Just in the communities, the families, and understanding what happens actually when you're first in your family? What happens when you're first in your family to graduate high school? What does that mean for the information that you get from your family? What happens when you're first to want to go to college, to apply and to thrive and to complete college? What happens when you're first in your family if you're a college grad?
14:14 Ben Horowitz? Sometimes they resent you when you're first.
14:16 Speaker 02 Many things, but also to have that aspiration. You're a leader in your family and you're a problem solver in your family. That's a wonderful thing, but it also means you get sucked back into all problems because you're such a good problem solver. And sometimes if you're a child of immigrants and you're the translator for the family, the family relies on you for that. So there are all sorts of really interesting issues that were just in this one community. And that's when I decided to start College Track, to do a more holistic support for students and families so that we could seriously prepare students for college and make sure that they persisted and completed college
14:58 Speaker 02 and work with their families to solve problems within the family so that the individual didn't have to be the problem solver. And so that's how we started College Track. And we started it with 25 High school freshmen at Comon High School. And I would go to the lunchtimes and I'd find the ringleaders because I had a sense that everyone has to come with a friend because that would be a reinforcing mechanism. And some people came with whole groups of friends and that was even better because they would hold each other accountable. So we built out a cohort and so they were responsible for and to each other as well as to the adults. So we started in East Palo Alto this year. We have grown. We have 3,000 high school students.
15:42 Speaker 02 We have 1,000 college students and we have 550 college grads.
15:46 Ben Horowitz? Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I'm listening to you and it's so different than normally in Silicon Valley, people go to a fancy dinner. Somebody gives a presentation, they put some money on it. Here you are, you go and you go, I want to go teach this class. And then from there, build it all the way out into college track. It seems like your philosophy of how you win things.
16:07 Speaker 02 I think that's probably how entrepreneurs work, right? You see a problem and you actually think this is something that I can bring some energy and some problem solving and some smarts and maybe a little bit of innovation to this problem, to this issue.
16:22 Ben Horowitz? Really, really amazing. So then take us from that to Emerson Collective, which is like the world, like now you've really expanded your horizons. Now, well, maybe we'll start with the name because the name is so unusual. Like Emerson, which I know from reading about is Ralph Waldo Emerson. And then tell me about that and then also about Collective. Because like there's no other like VCs we work with called collectives.
16:49 Speaker 02 Well, maybe they should be, sure.
16:51 Ben Horowitz? And Brooklyn, there's the Cheeseboard Collective.
16:53 Speaker 02 There is?
16:54 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then they all like Bodenkind of cheeses.
16:57 Speaker 02 Okay.
16:58 Ben Horowitz? And that's like a company kind of thing.
17:00 Speaker 02 That's funny. So I'll tell you what we're not. We're not the Cheeseboard Collective. We're not a group governance organization, which actually makes it really hard to get anything done.
17:10 Ben Horowitz? See, I think control is important.
17:12 Speaker 02 We're more of a collective of leaders and innovators across different sectors. And we see the connectedness of every issue. So just in the simple college track story, we talked about educational inequities and access and the need for enhanced and robust curriculum. But also, Good immigration laws and fair immigration practices, so that that actually could be a foundation instead of...
17:44 Ben Horowitz? Because that's essential to the education agenda.
17:46 Speaker 02 Of course, of course. And so many of our first-generation college-bound students are recent immigrants to America. And certainly in California, many of our recent immigrants are undocumented. And so, understanding what it means to be undocumented as a child growing up in the United States, you cannot access any state or federal funding for your education. And so, you might be the valedictorian of your high school, and you can't get state or federal funding. And in fact, there are only a handful of states that would allow you to pay in-state tuition. But for undocumented families, even in-state tuition at $17,000 a year, when you can get generally no scholarships, no loans to fund it, that's out of reach, too.
18:30 Speaker 02 So that's another issue that we learned about firsthand. Environmental toxicity in low-income neighborhoods. So the access to clean air, water, and soil, and access to food, and access to financial services and banking services. All of these things you learn about in one community. And they're all connected, because these are all systems and experiences that touch the individual's life. And so, you pull one thread, the whole fabric follows. We were pulling one thread, and we made it a really tough thread around this educational support in our own way. But we understood, we can't just solve the education issue without looking at the holistic issues of what actually are the...
19:14 Speaker 02 What are all the touchpoints to an individual's life? And how do we make sure if we can help remove obstacles in all of these different systems? Or even better, redesign these systems?
19:27 Speaker 02 So that an individual can just have access to the opportunity that they're qualified for, that would be the whole work. So that's why it's a collective, because we actually collectively wrap around problems and understand that complex problems require complex problem solving and complex solutions.
19:48 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, really complex. So it's interesting, Arnie Duncan had a quote where he said, "Well, you know, Lorraine said to me, 'You're trying to solve these really intractable problems, so why don't you let me help?'" And he said, "You know, I think she was attracted to the degree of difficulty." It was like, the harder it was, like, that's what she wanted to do.
20:07 Speaker 02 That's probably true. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's so exciting and invigorating to think about devoting my life to solving the problems of our day. You know, these are intractable problems. They're not problems that no one has worked on before, quite the opposite. These are problems that people have worked on, and now they pass the baton to us. We have the great privilege of trying to make a dent in them and trying to maybe redesign the system a little more elegantly, and make things a little more fair and more just. And we'll work on them for 20, 30 years, and then someone else is gonna come up and we get to pass the baton to them.
20:47 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, that's true.
20:48 Speaker 02 So that's how we think about it, and it's joyful work. If you can, at one point, be part of that inflection point in another person's life, if you can, for one person, know that for you, that person has opportunities they otherwise wouldn't have had, it's the most intoxicating feeling, and you want to do it again, and again, and again.
21:10 Ben Horowitz? So you do it, you try to change the world, but you do it for the individual? So the intractableness of the world doesn't bother you at all?
21:17 Speaker 02 Yes, that's how I can think about it, and that's how I can actually, and I think for all of us, we understand where we're trying to go, and then we backwards map it. So most everything we're working on, we have a 10-year time horizon. Some things we have... A 10-year and then we'll renew it for another 10 years. For Arnie, he's hoping to put a dent in gun violence and specifically in the number of homicides that are gun-related deaths in Chicago in 14 specific neighborhoods. And he wants to see impact within the next few years.
21:49 Ben Horowitz? Yeah. When you go after education, immigration, gun violence, environmental issues, you end up with a pretty unusual kind of diverse team. So you've got Mark Echo, Arnie Duncan, Steve McDermott, my old friend Steve McDermott. Did you put all those? I can't even imagine all those three in a meeting. That just seems so wild. How does that work? How do you?
22:16 Speaker 02 Every Monday, including today, we have all-staff meetings. And because we have five different offices around the country, so we have on the screen, like Hollywood Squares, generally a three-by-three matrix with different teams populating in the nine squares. And we have different teams report out. Sometimes we have guests who come and speak, who are either in the philanthropic portfolio or the for-profit portfolio, or who are policy advocates, or policy writers, or just brilliant people that happen to be passing through one of our cities that we bring to the table to listen to and learn from. And then we have follow-up.
22:58 Speaker 02 So it's sort of like, every single Monday, we set the stage, and we know where we are, we give a report back and look forward, and then we keep.
23:06 Ben Horowitz? And then you want everybody out in the field.
23:07 Speaker 02 Then you want everybody out in the field. Yeah. If people sat in office more than five, six days in a row, that would be bad.
23:14 Ben Horowitz? And that's because all the knowledge is out in the field?
23:17 Speaker 02 Exactly. And so when we decided to bring a big idea forward in education, for example, with the XQ Institute. Russlyn Alley, who was running our education practice at the time, came out of the Obama administration. She was the Assistant Secretary of Education. She ran the Office of Civil Rights. I love that we have these extraordinary people who have a body of work and a network, and there's something big that they want to accomplish that maybe they didn't get to do in government, or in business, or in the social sector. And so we say, okay, come. Do you think we can do this in 10 years? And what does it look like? What kind of team do you need? And so we build out like that. So we've built our organization
24:02 Speaker 02 from these individuals who come in this extraordinary way. And then the newer hires, the more junior people, hear about the fact that they might get to work with some of these amazing people. And so it's become kind of this really nice giant magnet for talent in that way.
24:20 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, it is. It's really, I mean, the team is.
24:23 Speaker 02 So anyway, so I was telling you about Russlyn and XQ. So we both had worked in the ed sector for over a decade, and we both had a sense of the brokenness of the design of the system and the fact that students who come to school needing the most receive the least in all educational resources. And you just have to wrap your head around that. Students who come in, who are already behind in word, in hearing just the number of words, let alone the quality of words, at home, actually are behind in kindergarten, and they rarely catch up. And the students who are slow to learn to read, by the end of the third grade, every school in this country shifts
25:08 Speaker 02 from learning to read to reading to learn. So then when you enter the fourth grade, if you're not a really good reader in the third grade, all of your learning comes from reading text. And so you sit further and further behind. And whoever came up with the idea that humans learn best by sitting still for six to eight hours.
25:28 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, especially little kids.
25:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, especially little kids. That's not how synapses are formed. We came with all of this frustration about how we're just ruining the humans and the massive potential that's in every single person's skull. You know, the brains that we carry around can solve any problem, any person. The talent and the IQ that is randomly distributed does not meet up with opportunity. Opportunity is siloed. So we decided, well, we want to flip the system. We want to flip the system from measuring learning in the high school. So we're both also fixated on high school as the fulcrum for what happens after high school and what happens before high school.
26:12 Speaker 02 So K8 shifts when high school shifts. And obviously, access to higher ed and career also is influenced by what happens in high school. So if you change high school, you can actually change the whole system. But you get a high school degree by sitting through 120 hours of a list of subjects, mathematics and English and some history and some science. And the reason for that is because in 1906...
26:42 Ben Horowitz? 1906. I'm sorry. Good thing there's been no technological change since 1906.
26:48 Speaker 02 1906. And if you walked into high school in 1906, you'd feel, if you time-traveled to 2018, you'd feel very much at home. Oh, it's still the same.
26:59 Ben Horowitz? Oh, great.
27:00 Speaker 02 Still the same life and world. In 1906, they decided that what they wanted to do was systematize...
27:06 Ben Horowitz? Great for Rip Van Winkle.
27:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's right. That would be a good movie. What they wanted to do was bring the learnings of industrial revolution and productivity into the school setting. It was actually a really good idea, that we would standardize schools, because schools at that point had only been generally for young men. And they wanted to have universal access to high school. And they also wanted to standardize the lessons across the country. So this was smart and this was innovative for its time. In 1906, unfortunately, that system that got set up is still the system today. That's still how you get your high school diploma. Not to mention the fact that you actually don't need a proxy for learning.
27:52 Speaker 02 You don't need for time to be the standard. You actually need content mastery to be the standard and time should be the variable. And we can do that. We actually know how to measure what you know about anything at any time in any classroom. We also know a lot more about neuroscience now. And we know how the brain develops when it's actually engaged in a task. And we also know that you don't learn things in silos, isolated silos. You don't learn math and then leave math and then start to learning this and leave it. It's actually much more robust and sticky when things are integrated and connected.
28:32 Speaker 02 And so we decided that we wanted to change high schools in America. And we started it a few years ago. And we started it with a competition across America. And we wanted to put students in the center. And so we crisscross the United States. And I think we're on our fifth trip across the United States. And we visit communities and we hold student roundtables. And we hold civic leader and business leader and parents and teacher roundtables. And we sit and we talk to people and we listen to them. So then by the time we issued this challenge for communities across America to redesign high schools in their own community that mapped onto the workforce demands in their communities,
29:17 Speaker 02 that repurposed assets in their communities, we had already talked to thousands and thousands of people.
29:22 Ben Horowitz? And they were able to pick this up. And there were no, you always hear about all the, and there are so many inhibitors in terms of changing how things are done. And, you know, between the, you know, the structure and the unions and this and the that. But people were able to pick it up and redesign these high schools.
29:38 Speaker 02 We weren't sure. We weren't sure. We definitely were stepping into unknown territory. We weren't sure how many people would actually take this up. We had designed the, we used a design thinking set of modules. We had 13 modules that every team had to go through. We made these kits with posters and workbooks and cards that you could use. And you had to have on your team, students, parents, business leaders, designers of any sort, and even in small communities. In the end, it was a seven-month process to go through this whole thing. So communities really had to dig in.
30:18 Speaker 02 We had 700 full applications for brand-new high schools in all 50 states. Over 10,000 people participated for what were going to be 10 schools that we funded and built.
30:32 Ben Horowitz? Oh, wow. Amazing.
30:33 Speaker 02 It was amazing.
30:37 Speaker 02 And after the competition, so we awarded our 10. And then after our competition, we followed about 140 that were continuing on and building their own, even though they didn't win. And since then, we've awarded another nine the XQ Super School moniker because their models are so inspiring and breakthrough. And so they're part of this cohort of super schools. And we bring them together. And so now 17 of the 19 are open. The other two will open next August. And of course, along the way, we're learning all sorts of wonderful things. And they're teaching each other. And they have professional learning communities. And of course, they have to break from the Carnegie Unit,
31:20 Speaker 02 which is time as a proxy for learning. So they all have to have competency-based learnings. We have a standardized learner outcome. And so all of the students in all of the schools can tell you the XQ learner outcomes are about being a synthesizer and a collaborator and a creative problem solver. They happen to know that for them, 65% of the jobs that they will hold haven't been created yet. And so they understand they have to be agile, nimble thinkers. They have to be creative problem solvers. They have to understand critical thinking skills. And these are schools that are not skimming. These are schools that exist in communities and they're open enrollment, public schools.
32:02 Ben Horowitz? Yeah, so with the kids who actually need to help.
32:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, everybody. But they actually bring the answers. They bring the answers and the teachers are heroically scrambling to catch up and design new curriculum and it's really exciting journey to be on.
32:16 Ben Horowitz? Because you have Arnie Duncan on the team. How do you think about taking that, those models and changing policy and, you know, kind of impacting the whole country?
32:26 Speaker 02 We do think about it. So in many of the sectors where we work, policy is the tip of the spear. So certainly for immigration, reform policies at the tip of the spear. And there's work that we can do, each of us can do, to be welcoming to immigrants. And there are individual policies that municipalities can instill around driver's licenses and not using local law enforcement to enforce immigration laws. On the other hand, with education, it's very, very layered. And so we do have a policy team that is mapping out specific state and federal policies that we advocate for.
33:07 Speaker 02 So part of the beauty of being an LLC or a series of LLCs is that we can be policy writers, policy advocates.
33:16 Ben Horowitz? Right.
33:17 Speaker 02 We can be philanthropists.
33:18 Ben Horowitz? You can do whatever you want.
33:19 Speaker 02 We can be investors and we do do all those things. We use every possible tool that we can use.
33:24 Ben Horowitz? So you missed out on some tax breaks.
33:25 Speaker 02 That's right. That's right. So if you don't care about tax preference, there's a whole heck of a lot that you can do.
33:31 Ben Horowitz? You get a lot more flexibility.
33:32 Speaker 02 You get ultimate flexibility.
33:34 Ben Horowitz? Oh, that's really great.
33:35 Speaker 02 Yeah. When we were really digging in on the work about six years ago, I was contemplating what structure we should have. And most people start a foundation so that they migrate pre-tax, either any dollars or stock into that generally, whatever asset they're going to be using and then use.
33:56 Speaker 02 That foundation construct, they use that kind of the 5% payout to do the work that they're going to do. Well, first of all, I felt that if I really care about impact, if I actually really care about solving problems and I don't care about increasing wealth, then I would be foolish to close off any avenues by which change happens. And a lot of change happens in brilliant for-profit companies, so I wouldn't want to close that off. And a lot of change happens at the policy level, and so we wouldn't want to close that off. So then, so I thought, well, why doesn't everybody do this? I don't understand it.
34:35 Ben Horowitz? Money.
34:36 Speaker 02 But if people have taken the giving pledge and they plan to give away all their money, why do they even care about a tax break? So I still actually don't understand it, because I'm hoping we go through as much of the wealth as we possibly can. I mean, that's the purpose of it. And we're living in times of urgency and extreme crisis. I don't understand what the 95% of the corpus is waiting around for, because it's not going to get worse than we're in right now. So I hope people put more work, admire money to work.
35:06 Ben Horowitz? Well, let's talk a little bit about profit, because you invest in tech companies, and there are a lot of tech companies here who I'm sure, and a lot of them ask me, how do I get money from Amazon and collective? What are you looking for on the for-profit side?
35:19 Speaker 02 Almost all of our investments are mission-aligned. We have an environmental practice, so within the environmental practice, there's a robust portfolio. We have an ed tech portfolio that's obviously aligned with our education practice. We have cancer companies that we've invested in, because we invest in oncology research and some policy there as well. We started an immigration incubator. There isn't a lot of technology that's migrated into the immigration sector, so we'd love to encourage that. But we would love to invest in people who are bringing differentiated thinking or new thinking to old problems in this way.
36:00 Speaker 02 And so there's a lot of wonderful opportunity for entrepreneurs to marry their passion and their purpose with their company. Those are the entrepreneurs that we get super excited by.
36:14 Ben Horowitz? So, one last question. And you've kind of answered this, but there's another answer that I'm looking for. So how do you know when you're succeeding? On the micro level, I definitely get it, and you're changing lives. But on these big agendas that you have, how do you know when you're kind of on the track and getting there?
36:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, we collect data on everything that we do, so we can understand if we're trending in the right direction. In education, around XQ, I'll just use that as an example because I've been talking about that. In addition to the schools, we now have the District of Tulsa and the State of Rhode Island, which want to have kind of a complete redesign of all of their high schools. So in Rhode Island, they have 45 high schools, so you can do experiments in Rhode Island, or at least use it as a laboratory for other states. So all 45 of their high schools, they want to become XQ super schools. So we're working with them on a statewide competition in that way. So that's moving in the right direction.
37:18 Speaker 02 In Chicago, there's very good data on both fatal and non-fatal gun violence, and so we have really good metrics there. But we also see success in smaller ways, in anecdotal ways, which I think are very powerful as well, where people come back to us and they tell us, "No one has ever talked to us before. No one's ever taken a shot on me. No one's actually ever listened to me and then given me the chance to try a big hairy idea." And so that, to me, is also success, and that's moving things forward. I think there are also other, more subtle ways.
37:59 Speaker 02 We didn't even talk about, you know, how do you make sure that you're part of the cultural narrative? And how do you make sure that some of our most imperiled and important institutions, like the media, like high-quality journalism, are supported and sustained? But seeing how many people are going into those disciplines is actually another measurement of success. Seeing where IQ is migrating is really important measure of success. We see that in the ed sector. We're seeing that in other sectors as well.
38:29 Ben Horowitz? That's great. Well, thank you, Sarah. Well, we all appreciate you being you and fixing the world. So, everybody, please, join me in thanking Maureen. Thank you so much.
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