The 99PI Anniversary Special: 15 for 15

For 99PI’s 15th anniversary, Roman sits in the hot seat to answer 15 eclectic questions, touching on everything from his dream merch to the one object he's always wanted to cover on the show.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Roman Mars?

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• 0:45Roman Mars?

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• 1:05Roman Mars?

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• 1:38Roman Mars?

  This is 99% Invisible. I'm Roman Mars.

• 1:43Roman Mars?

  So here's the thing. This year marks the 15th anniversary of 99% Invisible, which is honestly kind of hard to believe. If 99% Invisible were a person, it would be old enough to have a provisional driver's license in some states or celebrate a quinceañera. That's kind of all you can do at age 15 in this country. But still. The first episode of 99% Invisible was released on September 3rd, 2010. And since then, we've had 15 years of stories about design, architecture, and the choices we make that shape our world. 15 years of taking the time to stop and read the plaque. 15 years of you, our listeners, sending us the most incredible

• 2:26Roman Mars?

  observations about the built environment that we never would have noticed on our own. To mark this milestone, we thought we'd do something a little different. Instead of our usual deep dive into one particular design story, I'm going to answer 15 questions submitted by our listeners and the staff about the show, about the field of design, and about me. And to help me navigate this whole thing, I'm joined by 99PI producer Vivian Le, who will be moderating the questions.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Hi, Roman. Happy birthday.

• 2:58Roman Mars?

  Thank you so much. I'm a little nervous, but I think we'll get through this together.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, granting me the power to choose these questions was a very bold move on your part, so we'll see how this goes. We got a lot of fun questions. Some of them were submitted through email, some came through social media, our Discord server.

• 3:20Roman Mars?

  Oh, nice.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  And a bunch of them I just made up because I thought it'd be really funny for you to answer on mic. So, yeah, I'm ready to jump in if you are.

• 3:29Roman Mars?

  I am ready. Let's go for it.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Okay, great. So, the first question came from Taylor from New Jersey. Shout out to New Jersey, my second favorite state. But Taylor actually has kind of a doozy of a question for you. They ask, "A city hires you to make their residents' lives 10% better without spending any money. You could only rearrange, remove, or repurpose things that already exist. What do you do?"

• 3:53Roman Mars?

  Without spending any money?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  No, no. And you can't, you can't create anything. It's basically just... Redoing what already exists.

• 4:02Roman Mars?

  Okay, so I have one idea. I don't know if it completely fulfills the idea of no money, but if rearranging, removing, repurposing works, I feel like all those things involve like a little bit of money, honestly. But like, I think that, I think the best way to make a city better would be dedicated rapid bus lanes, which I think if you have the buses and you have the lanes and you just need to paint them and like, you know, mark them, I think it kind of fulfills the mandate of the question. But that would be like regular, take every bus you have, school buses, public transit buses, and just have

• 4:43Roman Mars?

  a lane, have them run every 10 minutes between places that are important. You will make a city tremendously better. I don't know if it's really free, but I also like, not to quibble with Taylor, just in general, the whole concept of like fixing stuff without money is like a thing that I find is like a weird political thing that people talk about that is like, no, we actually throw money at things that we value and that's okay. But I would throw a little bit of money at this. I think it's much cheaper than light rail and various other solutions. It really is a rearrangement of resources and the emphasis on making a city a better place. But rapid, very frequent bus routes between places would be huge. Dedicated bus lanes. That means like they run smoothly

• 5:26Roman Mars?

  because there's no other cars in the lane. I think that's how I'd make a city better. Almost any city would be made better by that.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty good. So the next question is actually a voice message. So I'm going to play it for you.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Hey, this is Taya from Seattle, and I'm really excited to congratulate the entire team at 99% visible. And thank you for being such an awesome part of my life for the past 15 years. And I'm just asking for 15 more. My question is for Roman. I'm wondering, in the time that you've been doing this, has your definition of design changed at all? And if so, how? Thanks.

• 6:05Roman Mars?

  I always interpreted it pretty broadly, even when the show started. But I think in the beginning, when you're trying to, you know, like, when you're trying to sort of present a thesis to an audience, you keep it a little bit tighter with like buildings and cities and product design and flags and, you know, things with, you know, visual design. And I always knew that I thought of design quite broadly. And what, and the reason why I chose the name 99% Invisible and not Blank Design or The Design of Things or whatever was because I thought that that name was so evocative

• 6:46Roman Mars?

  and open-ended to the idea of what we could include in it in terms of design. So I always thought of it pretty broadly. It has gotten more broad over time. Like, when I think about, like, there's, I mean, I never would have conceived of the Quiet Storm episode of Christopher's, like, in 99% Invisible. But I love it, and I think that's, that's one of the things that's, that's the, the way that my definition of design has evolved is that as the show opened up and had more people in it and more brains on it, it is evolved because of their interests. And then I'm such a fan of our staff that I just, I like to follow them wherever they go.

• 7:28Roman Mars?

  And it comes to this as a sort of the mandate of design. And that is necessarily broadened because there's just more minds on the show than there was before. So in that way, it's, it's evolved.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so next question. This one came from our Discord and it was from someone with the name YFNH, Ketchy.

• 7:49Roman Mars?

  Okay.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  So they are asking, barring the noble funicular, what's the one designed object that's fallen out of common use that you think deserves another chance?

• 8:00Roman Mars?

  Um, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, and this is not, I don't, this is not a strongly held belief, but I think cash.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Like money, like paper money?

• 8:12Roman Mars?

  Like paper money. Like, I know that I like all the tools of tapping and, you know, Venmo and various things, and I get it. But I feel like we are going down a path of having our economy locked up by apps and things and the messiness of the economy and looseness of giving change and giving tips and paying for cash and not being banked. And, you know, I, I think that there's something that we will lose and, and, and it has potentially like big downsides down the line. I think that there's a, there's kind of an inherent

• 8:55Roman Mars?

  classism in the loss of cash. I think that there's, I think there's a lot of control there that I'm, I'm, I'm feeling queasy about when I see, when I go to a place that says they, they don't accept any cash. It's not a strongly held belief, like, and I love all the conveniences. I'm not saying that, that those things are bad. I'm just saying that I think there's a cost. I think there's a societal cost at risk when we lose cash completely.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  I think that's actually a really great answer.

• 9:22Roman Mars?

  Okay, thanks.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  It's a great answer because like, I feel like every country too, when they print their own banknotes, it's, it's something like a little piece of artwork, you know?

• 9:31Roman Mars?

  Oh, that, that's another part of it that I wasn't thinking about, but like totally. I think that, like, as much as I think our paper money is so boring and so awful, like, that's the part I don't love. Like, I wish it would, we would expand it to have, like, leaders in science and art and poets and stuff on our money, the way every other country in the world does and, and better colors and everything, you know, as a representation of, of kind of a civic pride, that's another huge loss. I, totally a huge loss. But I, yeah, all around cash, like, I feel like there's, there's great opportunity there to, you know, to represent our, you know, our best selves. And I also just think that the, the openness of cash as a system is super important and it's, it'll be a shame if it's, if it goes away completely.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  So our next question came from someone named Connor Hibbs. He submitted this through email. He actually submitted two questions and cheated. I'm gonna ask one.

• 10:28Roman Mars?

  Run a tight ship here.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, Connor. So, what is something you come across in your everyday life that intrigues you, but you haven't created a story about?

• 10:39Roman Mars?

  Oh, I've had this longstanding desire to do a story about the Brannick device. Do you know what the Brannick device is?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  No, tell me more.

• 10:48Roman Mars?

  The Brannick device is that metal foot measuring tool that is in shoe stores.

• 10:58Roman Mars?

  I've always kind of loved them. I don't go to shoe stores much anymore, but as a kid, like they're fun to play with. They're like heavy and they're fun to put your foot in and they're kind of, they have an ASMR quality to them. Like you mess with them and you're measuring something. And I researched them once because I thought like, everyone loves this thing. This is the greatest thing. And I found that the Brannick company of Syracuse, New York, that's the only thing they've made. Like, and I think they've, they've, I don't even know, maybe a hundred years. I have no idea. I can't remember the research I did on it, but, but they've made one, one thing, and that is that thing. They've made that metal thing in different colors, I think recently, but it's, they make this one thing. It's called the Brannick device. It's named after the founder of the company.

• 11:43Roman Mars?

  And I'm just kind of fascinated by it.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  For sure. And it is, I never really thought about it. It's in every single Payless, every single shoe store. And it's, they're solving a problem that you could solve with a ruler, essentially, something that you probably already have.

• 11:57Roman Mars?

  It does width and, and height of the shoe and then translates it into shoe size and stuff. It's, it's a pretty simple thing, but it's like the fact that it is so simple. And there's like these, you know, there's new ways to kind of do it. Like they have you stand on a digital thing and they, they do your, measure your foot. I've never really done those before, but I just think that there's an elegance to it. There's like a weight to it and like a history to it that I just thought, oh, there's probably something cool here. I just don't, I don't know what it is for sure. But, and so in a way I can't, I could, I could never like pitch it to the staff. I've told some, some people about it, but like, I feel like I'd have to just go there and see what the vibe of those folks was like. And see what their deal was.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  One day. We'll see you there one day.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Great. Okay, so our next question is another voice message. It's from another Connor. About a third of our listeners are named Connor. So here's Connor.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  Hey, Roman. This is Connor Harrington, a longtime listener, first time caller from lovely Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Now, I'm a big fan of another pod that you made an excellent guest appearance on. Blank check. So my question for you is, what would 99PIs four favorites be if the pod had a Letterboxd account?

• 13:08Roman Mars?

  Nice. Should you explain Letterboxd?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 13:13Roman Mars?

  But I know it, so.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  So you do you know what the question's asking you specifically?

• 13:16Roman Mars?

  I do.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  You do? Okay. So for listeners who might not know, Letterboxd is like a social media platform, basically, where you'll post about movies that you watched, since you can make lists of things that you just watched. And basically, it's a way for like movie buffs to find each other and talk about movies and that kind of thing.

• 13:34Roman Mars?

  It's a way to it's a way to to turn an enjoyable thing into work, as far as I'm concerned.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. To gamify. Yeah. Gamify something that should be relaxing.

• 13:42Roman Mars?

  Exactly.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's a really, it's a really popular platform with movie buffs. And so there's something called the Letterboxd four, where you will basically post, what are your top four movies? And that doesn't mean what do you think are the best movies? It's kind of what are your favorite movies? And it's become a little bit of like a Myers-Briggs personality test. So what you put in your Letterboxd four kind of defines a little bit your personality. So I think Connor here is asking, what are 99PIs Letterboxd for?

• 14:14Roman Mars?

  It's hard for me to know, like, what 99PIs one is. I can kind of just do me, I guess. But maybe they'll they'll give some window into 99PI. But I always say that my favorite movie, it's very basic. Jaws has been my favorite movie forever, because I think it is.

• 14:35Roman Mars?

  The best buddy comedy. I think it's the best adventure movie. I think it's one of the best horror movies. And it's all rolled into one. And when you watch it over and over again, different parts of it like are emphasized and you forget about little bits. I've seen it so many times and I'm like, I'm stunned by in the beginning, how much information is is like conveyed about the island and the city as Brody is walking around and people are cross talking over each other. And I just love it. I love it. I really like my favorite movies are all kind of sprawling.

• 15:12Roman Mars?

  You know, like with different sections that have different tones. Like I think another one is The Godfather. Again, it's so basic. Like I get it. Like it's not, it's not, I'm not trying to like, you know, um, you know, surprise you here necessarily. I'm a huge Coen Brothers guy. I think, I think again, like I know that that I have a hard time separating best and and favorite, but I think their best and my favorite is Fargo. Again, it balances tons of tones. I think it's super funny. I think it's super um, harrowing and I think it tells you a lot about human nature and I can watch it again and again.

• 15:48Roman Mars?

  The the most recent movie that I would say the most 99 P I. Movie and the one that really like knocked me out um, recently is Perfect Days. I think that's.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I haven't seen that one.

• 16:00Roman Mars?

  Oh, it's so good. It's like Vin Bender's who's like a classic, like, you know, indie auteur type, but it's about a guy who is just making his way cleaning public toilets in Tokyo. And it just, it's just the greatest. It has great music. It has a great vibe. I think it could like if everyone watched it, the the world would be a better place. Like it really teaches you about um, life and contentment and I just, I think it's super beautiful.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, cleaning toilets in Tokyo set to nice music sounds like a 99 P I. Episode.

• 16:35Roman Mars?

  It really, it feels like it, like it has a kind of. An underlying kind of spiritualism that I sometimes feel with 99PI, like specifically like we would never do something so un-story like as that one. It's more of like a mood, but it it has just like appreciation of urban landscape, of ritual, of care, you know, it has that feeling that I think people, people told me about the show like I was, I don't know if I knew I was embedding it in the show in the very beginning, but this sort of sense that when you notice design details, you notice that you're being cared for by people like you notice that things are being made better for you.

• 17:15Roman Mars?

  And this is a movie that's just about that, about like somebody who is making the world better for other people and the and himself and finding great contentment in that and contentment in the world. And it's just, it's just lovely like you, you really should watch it. I think you would like it and it has just the greatest soundtrack because he also like he listens, he buys cassette tapes, like used cassette tapes of like of, you know, Velvet Underground and stuff like that. The music is, you know, is so good, so it's great.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Okay, I promise I'm going to watch this one and I will post on our movie club Slack channel as soon as I watch this.

• 17:51Roman Mars?

  Sounds good.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Okay, so the next question came from somebody here on staff at 99PI, who you will probably recognize.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  Hey, Roman, this is Joe, you know me. Now that you're such an expert on con law, if you were allowed to make one serious change to the constitution, what would it be?

• 18:08Roman Mars?

  So then, of course, is our producer, Joe Rosenberg.

• 18:12Roman Mars?

  I think you would just have to eliminate the Electoral College. I think that's, I think that's it. I mean, I think that everything good follows from that. That sort of weird proportional weight and sort of the tyranny of the minority and all that sort of stuff would just goes away. I'd much rather have the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority. And a lot of the horrible stuff unwinds when you have the popular election of the president. I think it's a huge, I think it's a huge thing. That's what I'd change first.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Got it. So the next question is, what's a design related hill you're willing to die on?

• 18:48Roman Mars?

  I don't want to die on any hill, I don't think. I mean, mostly when it comes to certain, you know, design things or design movements, like truly, the answer is nothing. Like, I can be convinced by a good story or a good reason for any ugly thing to exist, or whatever, if it's, if it's really thoughtful and done right. That was the whole premise of the show, is that I wanted people, if they couldn't see the ugly building, because we were doing this on the radio or in podcasting, that they could learn to love it before they learned to hate it by seeing it. You know what I mean? Like, so that. But, but the one that's sticking with me, and this is gonna be kind of abstract, and I don't know if this is gonna come off well, is that- Let's go there.

• 19:30Roman Mars?

  Is, is the idea of, um, uh, the march to make things more and more efficient makes the world a worse place. And I think of that this in terms of, of advertising, like, like, the idea that we were going to efficiently measure how effective advertising was through clicks and eyeballs and stuff, erased all of the extra money that made all the journalism and all the pop culture that you cared about in the 20th century. It made it all possible. The inefficiency of the advertising system made everything good in this world. Like, I think that the idea that you're trying to get things to be as efficient as possible is actually a terrible, world-destroying idea.

• 20:14Roman Mars?

  And all it does is like, like, the most efficient restaurant is like a ghost kitchen that has no storefront, because that's inefficient, because it could be empty sometimes. And it's a ghost kitchen that just ships you a thing and has a underpaid delivery person and brings it to your door, and you never leave. And this is stripping away all the goodness of the world in those cities. Like, I think efficiency is absolute garbage, and that is the design-related hill I'm willing to die on. Like, I feel like you should always be allowing for great deals of inefficiency to make a nice-designed city, a nice-designed system, and make it work. I really hate the focus on efficiency. Not only does it, it destroys all these good things, it-

• 20:58Roman Mars?

  Takes money and gives it to the worst people, like the platform creators and the tech people, instead of all the loose, like, empty, like, change and tips and things. And it's not like things are cheaper or things are better. They just, money is being transferred to the wrong people instead of creators and people who make the world a better place through community and, and creation.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, a more efficient world is a place where more people are left out, essentially. Like, the more people, you're gonna be more inefficient, the more people that are included.

• 21:28Roman Mars?

  Yeah, totally. You need friction, you need the space of creation, that open freedom of, of an inefficient system where money sloshes around inside of it. Like, these frictions and inefficiencies are what make everything good about the world. Yeah, so if you can handle that big abstraction, that is the design-related hill I'm willing to die on.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a great spicy hill to die on.

• 21:56Roman Mars?

  I want to hear nothing about how good efficiency is, or the Department of Government Efficiency. Nonsense. It's, that is the worst world that we're building when we, when we do efficient things.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yep, okay. Uh, next question. So, Gelsy Bennett on Instagram was wondering, when you were delivering pizzas in Memphis, what restaurant were you delivering for?

• 22:18Roman Mars?

  Okay, so my cousin, my beloved cousin, Lynn Cruthers, who passed away several years ago, she was the manager, regional manager of seven locations of Papa John's throughout Memphis.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 22:35Roman Mars?

  And so, when I was extremely broke, I left grad school, I was moving out to San Francisco to do something. I didn't know what was going to happen.

• 22:48Roman Mars?

  I delivered pizzas in her restaurants and I would say, so, so I mostly worked out of the Bartlett location, that's kind of outside of Memphis. The big store was the Midtown store, I worked there a little bit and lived in Midtown. So if you had Papa John's delivered to you in Midtown, but especially like Bartlett and Cordova, like kind of outside Memphis, like northern Memphis, you, you may have gotten a pizza from me. This would be in the mid 90s.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  You were a Papa John's guy then?

• 23:16Roman Mars?

  I was a Papa John's guy. I mean, I was never a Papa John's guy, but that was the job that was offered to me. So, but in addition, if you grew up in Memphis in the 80s and 90s, I worked at a, my, my cousin Lynn owned a video store called Video Stop in Germantown, Tennessee. And you might've gotten movies rented by me. And, and this was when I was way underage. I worked there like all growing up. And then, and I worked at the Cecil's bagging groceries. So I worked a lot in Memphis during the summers and during breaks and stuff like that. And then at one point I was talking with Chuck Bryant of Stuff You Should Know, who grew up in Germantown, Tennessee and, and was a huge movie fan and

• 23:57Roman Mars?

  ended up, you know, like moving out to Los Angeles to, to work in movies before he started his podcast career. And we determined that he very likely was a customer at the video store that I was a clerk at.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Hilarious. So, side story, Jason DeLeone, who's one of the producers here at the show, but Jason used to do a lot of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and go to tournaments. And he's gone to a few in Southern California and I, at one point, would be like a videographer for Jiu Jitsu competition. There's a chance that like I might've recorded Jason.

• 24:34Roman Mars?

  Jason.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Like in some kind of like camera lock or something.

• 24:39Roman Mars?

  That's awesome. I love it. Cool.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Okay. So our next question came from our Discord again, from a user named ASG1982. And they ask, what goes into making a 99PI episode? Obviously, there's research and a script, but what are the steps of how it happens and where do all the background people fit in? It's kind of a big question.

• 25:01Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Coming from a background person.

• 25:05Roman Mars?

  Well, that's funny because I've always thought, well, background person is not how I would phrase our staff. One of the things I love about the show is I think that people have gotten to know all of the producers and their personalities through the show. I mean, definitely like I have a big imprint on the show, but I think a lot of people's taste and stuff comes out. But like, what's really interesting is how much everyone works on every show in some way. So the process of putting together an episode, I think, is kind of around 16 weeks at this point. Like, that's how we count on it. They sometimes come in faster, but we don't count on them being much quicker than that.

• 25:48Roman Mars?

  And a person pitches a story, it gets greenlit, and then they go report it for a while, just like find out stuff, interview people. They get assigned an editor and that editor works with them to try to like realize the sort of the potential of both what they're finding and what people desired in the pitch. And then it comes into form as a script that those two people mostly work on together. And then that's the first time I see it at that point is when it's a script and we do what we call a read to tape, but I think most people might know it as like a table read, where essentially we just do it, we perform it live. And a bunch of people are in the room. I mean, this is all Zoom.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  It used to be in one room.

• 26:32Roman Mars?

  But now it's all on Zoom. And people put notes like in a Google Doc all along as like we're performing it and playing the tape that's been cut. And they're probably like, I don't know, when we're done, like,

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Hundreds.

• 26:45Roman Mars?

  Hundreds of notes. Yeah, hundreds of comments.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  An overwhelming amount of comments.

• 26:53Roman Mars?

  In a way, it's like a pretty brutal process, but everyone is really kind and everyone, I think, is like, We're trying to get to the best thing, and I think that everyone has been trained to recognize that this is good, you know, like this is a good process. I've always liked our edits. I've been in other rooms or heard horror stories of other rooms about edits where people leave crying and stuff like that. That doesn't, I mean, people can leave frustrated because there's a lot to do and stuff like that, but we don't have a culture of cutting each other down here.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 27:27Roman Mars?

  We do have some brutal shorthands for things, like over time, like, so all the notes that come in and sometimes they're like, oh, I like this person or this like this, or we should move this part to here or whatever. But we have some shorthands in the edit. So there's like, somebody will put in C W G H F. Did I do that right? C W G H F, which is, can we get here faster?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:54Roman Mars?

  Which is one of those ones where like, like.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  And it comes up in every single script. It's like, when is it gonna happen?

• 28:03Roman Mars?

  So can we get here faster is one. Oh, Emmet's, I love this one. Relentlessly chronological is something that Emmet said once.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Devastating, devastating comment.

• 28:15Roman Mars?

  And it has to do with like these histories. Sometimes we do these long histories and you just feel like you're plodding along. It just captured something that I felt for a long time, but never put words to it. But that sort of sense of just like, oh, but if I skip from 900 A.D. to 1800, I have to put these like three things in between, but like you feel that they're unnecessary. And sometimes we just free ourselves from this idea. It's just like, instead of being relentlessly chronological, just do the parts that are important and fun and for the story and stop being so relentlessly chronological. Like, sometimes the driving force of the action is time, and sometimes it's the thesis of the collection

• 28:56Roman Mars?

  of things, so that you lead with that first. And so it's a matter of mixing things up so you don't feel like you're just reading a timeline of events. So relentlessly chronological is a dig that kills me. So yeah, so then there's like that big, long paper edit with lots of notes. Then there's the producer incorporates those notes and creates an audio version of it. So like I'll get my script and I'll record my parts. They'll record their parts and put it together and that becomes what we call listen at it. And we listen to it all together as a sort of, at least a first draft audio file and do the exact same thing, put all the notes in here. And then those notes are incorporated into something called the notes mix.

• 29:41Roman Mars?

  And those are, instead of us all getting together, we all kind of listen on our own and we put little notes in. Yeah. And then Martine mixes it and then it comes out and it really is like, it's a long process and editing is a much bigger chunk of it than reporting, I would say.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 29:58Roman Mars?

  And so every story has been touched by, you know, like at least, you know, five or six people, like it's a big group effort. Like it really takes a lot.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, a story gets turned into soup multiple times over several weeks. And then it becomes a little episode butterfly by the end of it. It's a nice, gentle, but also scary process.

• 30:19Roman Mars?

  Yeah, it's rigorous, but it's pretty gentle. Like most people who've done a tour through the show have commented on when they do this in other places, it's, it's not so fun. I take real pride in that.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Quick story, I do remember my first story was a freelance story. And it was my first time ever doing an edit like that. And I came in through, I think it was the Zoom and you, like, this was like an hour and a half into like a three hour process. You and Delaney were arguing, I think about like Agent Orange or something. My internet dropped off and I was gone for 10 minutes. And when I came back in, no one noticed I was gone and you're still like arguing about Agent Orange.

• 31:00Roman Mars?

  Well, there you go.

• 31:06Roman Mars?

  More of your 15th anniversary questions after this.

• 31:15Roman Mars?

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• 31:59Roman Mars?

  Progressive offers customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. They're basically the baby gates of insurance. Get a quote at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states.

• 32:18Roman Mars?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. Some design was made to be seen by all, like, for example, the seven wonders of the world. I mean, everyone should see those. While some were made to be less seen, like sewer systems. Like, when was the last time you thought about an aqueduct? Yet, that doesn't mean they're any less impressive. You could say the same thing about PNC Bank's smart, calculated approach to banking. It won't make for flashy headlines or trends on social media, but it'll make the right money moves that'll help set you up for the successful financial future you're looking for. A design everyone can get behind. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on,

• 33:03Roman Mars?

  whether you're heading to work, going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces. That feels special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays. I'm a huge fan of the whole line of Quince sweaters. I have button up ones, zip up ones, black, gray, brown. I use them when I just go upstairs, when I get on a call, when I take a dog for a walk. These are favorites that everyone would love. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 33:46Roman Mars?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know that it was 99% invisible. It's the best way to support the show.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Okay, our next question is a voice message and it's someone that you and I will recognize, but maybe some of the listeners have not heard their voice very much.

• 34:13Speaker 05

  So my question is, if you could commission any designer, living or dead, to create the ultimate piece of 99% invisible merch, like branded merchandise, what would that merch be? And I ask this as someone who proudly owns and wears one of our brand new 99PI swimsuits.

• 34:38Roman Mars?

  Well, that's Kelly Prime.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  That is Kelly Prime.

• 34:40Roman Mars?

  Yeah, she doesn't show up on the show a lot, like her voice, because she's an editor. But, but yeah, Kelly Prime is the greatest. Yeah, the funny thing about the swimsuit, just as an aside, was this was presented to us because there's a big merch team at Sirius XM and, you know, and they're just like, what about this? What about this? What about this? They just kind of like throw things at us. And they presented the idea of a 99PI swimsuit towels. And everyone was like, oh, my God, what are you kidding me? That's ridiculous. And then they would go, but if you make them, can I have one?

• 35:15Roman Mars?

  And so, so my wife did that. Vivian did that almost exactly.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  I did that, yep.

• 35:19Roman Mars?

  And, and, and so we, so we just did it because we were like, well, the people that will enjoy this will find it and fantastic. And so, let's see, the perfect merch, I would love like a Dieter Rams designed.

• 35:39Roman Mars?

  Podcast player that really only pays a podcast. I mean, like, the iPod was definitely based off of Dieter Ramses' like, stuff with Braun, like, his, his little miniature radio looks like a iPod, like, the first generation with the wheel and the white, the white thing with the wheel.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Roman Mars?

  Like, a dedicated podcast player, you know, that-

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Just podcasts only?

• 35:59Roman Mars?

  It's just podcasts only, you know, maybe a little bit of a screen on it so you could see some stuff.

• 36:06Roman Mars?

  You know, it'd have to be sort of internet-enabled. But, yeah, I think something like that, like, that, that would be the, like, the ultimate thing that I would probably enjoy and would be a nice 90% visible thing. And it's a very niche, very, like, not very widespread use device rather than a real piece of merch. But, yeah, that's, that's the kind of, that's the thing that comes to mind.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  For sure. Okay. So, our next question, it's also a voice message, which I will just play for you here.

• 36:34Speaker 06

  Hey, Roman, it's frequent 99PI contributor Gillian Jacobs. And if you were to create a show called 1% Visible, what would it be about?

• 36:44Roman Mars?

  Well, that's the same thing. I mean, 99% invisible means 1% visible.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  So it'd be the exact same show?

• 36:50Roman Mars?

  Yeah, I mean, I think so. But, oh, I do, this does bring to mind one thing. Like, we are, um, I've been thinking about, and we're, we're sort of developing the idea of a show of a less abstract, more tactile, kind of how stuff works quality of, like, of describing infrastructure of, like, I touch a light switch, that wire goes to a wire that goes to a wire that goes to a transformer. That's really about you're interacting with how the world works in, in a, in less of a story way and more of just, like, I just don't understand how that works. How does, you know, how does electricity come into my house? That's what that feels like to me as a, as an idea of 1% visible. And, um, that, that's a thing that we're developing, and I think that would be worth doing, you know, as a 1% visible.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Okay. Uh, so, next question. If aliens visited Earth and you had to show them one designed object to explain human civilization, what would it be?

• 37:42Roman Mars?

  Wow, that's a tall order.

• 37:45Roman Mars?

  I don't know, I'm kind of obsessed with the my my go to answer is the Golden Gate Bridge. I just think it's super gorgeous and I think it does it it it looks like what it does. Um, like it's it's design and physics and stuff is on display and it's beautiful. And um, I don't know, that's probably my answer. There might be a a deeper answer there, but I I just love it.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  It's a good one.

• 38:08Roman Mars?

  I love looking at it, so.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  It's a really good bridge.

• 38:10Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yep, okay. Uh, next question. Uh, what is the most emotionally manipulative piece of design that people encounter daily without realizing it?

• 38:24Roman Mars?

  I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is um, is is people, people really react to anything with faces or eyes. I mean, the I would say so I have a couple of things. The thing they react to are faces and eyes and they react to music. And one of the things that like I love using music and storytelling because you can just like get people on board with something. You can you can like it's so manipulative in just the greatest way possible. And I love using it, you know, all the time. I love uh, movies with good scores in them that are emotionally manipulative. And then in terms of like faces and eyes, like I I know that there is like, I think there was a study that if you put like eyeballs

• 39:06Roman Mars?

  or some kind of human face on a tip jar or like people tipped more. I think anything that has um, eyes or looks like somebody's watching you is probably the most emotionally manipulative stuff that sort of like gets you um, you know, that that that you encounter on a daily basis. I mean, and this is true, like cute faces. I mean, if your kids weren't cute, if your dog wasn't cute, like they just they make you. They're so, I mean, they're so adorable and they're so annoying and you would never endure them in other ways if they didn't have these just cute little faces. And so that's the most emotionally manipulative thing. I how people use it, and mostly I think people use it in a benign way. And mostly it's like good that you love your children because they have cute faces.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  It's mostly good that you love your children.

• 39:54Roman Mars?

  But yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  This does remind me of, you know, we get a lot of those like autonomous delivery carts here in Los Angeles.

• 40:00Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  And they have these like digital interfaces that have like an actual face on it that smiles and it's just like, please don't murder me. I'm just trying to do my job.

• 40:09Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Don't knock me over. Don't steal me. Please.

• 40:13Roman Mars?

  It's true. I think that's definitely why those faces are there. I don't know if they work 100% of the time, but, but it's why they're there for sure.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Okay. So, next question. What's something you deeply believed about designer storytelling 15 years ago that you've now completely reversed your thinking on?

• 40:30Roman Mars?

  Completely? Completely reversed? Um, I mean, I mean, the obvious one to me in terms of storytelling and storytelling about design is that, you know, I created what I thought was the thing that the world needed was this perfect little five-minute jewel of a story that was kind of like, kind of a story, but more of like an opinion and had a few key facts and a, you know, like something that made me laugh and a, you know, whatever. And never thought I would make a show like The Power Broker Breakdown that is like three hours long of two dudes talking about podcast.

• 41:09Roman Mars?

  But I, I loved making that show. And so I've kind of turned around a lot on that. And I just learned that like a lot of my favorite podcasts are like that. And I just sort of forgave myself and gave myself the permission to, to create one on my own. So.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  It is funny that the lesson that you learned after 15 years of making a podcast is that you like podcasts.

• 41:33Roman Mars?

  Yeah.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  So the next question is from me because I'm curious if you will answer it.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  So, you know, there are a lot of design lessons that the show has tried to, you know, impart out in the world. Like, you know, buses are good. Cities that are walkable are great. So there's a lot of like positive design lessons that I think people take from our show. Do you think there are any design decisions that have been unfairly blamed on your influence?

• 42:04Roman Mars?

  Okay, well, I think I know where this is going, which is, I don't think unfairly blamed, but it definitely is blame. And I take some of it as being justified. So probably the biggest cultural reach me or the show has ever had was this 2015 TED Talk about flag design. And where I sort of enumerated the North American Vexilological Association's Principles of Flag Design as written down by Ted K, who was great. And I love this, he has this pamphlet called Good Flag, Bad Flag. I did an episode based off of it and

• 42:47Roman Mars?

  talking to Ted as the sixth episode of this show. And then when I was approached to do a TED Talk, I kind of had this idea of putting together like this big, grand theory of design with lots of different stories and stuff. And it wasn't really working. I was trying different parts of it live and it wasn't really working. But like, this expanded flag talk was the one that was making people laugh and being fun and putting up pictures of flags and making fun of flags and stuff. And then using the design principles of of flags to talk about design principles in general, that they kind of work for almost everything. And the flag talk was really huge. Like, it was bigger than I thought. Like, when I went to Ted conference, the former Prime Minister of Australia was there

• 43:30Roman Mars?

  and who had like, who gave a talk and he was talking about normalizing trade relationships with China or something. And I was like, oh, my God, in two days, I want to do my dumb like, flag talk. And now I feel like such a loser, you know? And I did this talk and it was like, totally a home run. Like, people loved it. There was like a standing ovation. It was so much fun. And the title of the talk was eventually titled by Ted as The Worst Design Thing You've Ever Not Noticed, or something like that. And it was about city flags and how city flags need to be better. And I used lots of different examples. And it being released into the world resulted in maybe, I think, at this point, 300 or more flag redesigns all around the world. And most of these flag redesigns are just

• 44:12Roman Mars?

  like, old. You know, they put the city seal on a blue field and they're just thoughtless flags, you know? And they've been redesigned without too much controversy. And the lesson of the whole thing was, if you're in a city that doesn't fly a flag, it's probably because it violates these design principles. And a good way to get to the point where you Have a flag that you're proud of is to use these design principles to create one because it's this great symbol that nobody owns, that everyone can have city pride. And when you see it in action, like when you see it in Chicago, it's amazing. It's this amazing unifier that that it's on the shoulders of police officers. It's on like hipster tattoos. It's on every type of business uses like the stars or stripes parts of the of the Chicago flag.

• 44:57Roman Mars?

  And when it's not well designed, like San Francisco, you barely see it anywhere. And that was the whole point was to love your flag, have a municipal symbol that you that nobody owns. And if your flag is bad, it probably violates these principles and maybe redesign it so it's a good one. But the key is love your flag, use your flag like it's a resource that's wasted. Okay. And and even there's a line at the end that I think people kind of missed, which is, which is, I don't care if your flag is ugly. Like, just use it, like, use it. Don't let it go to waste because otherwise sports teams and corporations, they take over the identity of a city. And so a lot of people redesign their flag, and I think mostly for the good.

• 45:38Roman Mars?

  I never get involved in flag redesign contests or flag redesign like drama. Like, I my point was just to talk about it as a thing and have people do it because people should choose what represents them. And using the principles, that's a good way to do it, to make a good one. Now, like anything where like you're sort of like putting a list of things to make things good or a certain like orthodoxy gets created. And in that orthodoxy, I think some of the redesigns have had a samey samey quality to them, you know? And it was not something that I imagined because I didn't really think it would have that big of an effect. But but but they, you know, they especially the my praise of the Chicago flag have led

• 46:21Roman Mars?

  people to create like a lot of Chicago style flags instead of something like kind of cool and on their own. And and actually, and violate those principles when they're meaningfully worth of violating, you know, like the idea of of two to three colors. And and like, I love, like, for example, the California flag. It says California Republic on it, like a flag. Is supposed to work in two directions. So having words on it is like a bad flag. You know what I mean? Because you see it from the opposite direction. So it's backwards. I don't care. California Republic is so, it tells you so much about California and Californians that it still says California Republic on it. I would never change it. And, and I put out a whole like addendum of like things, like on the TED site of, of flags

• 47:05Roman Mars?

  that violate the principles but are still fantastic. And like, and Ted K, who wrote, you know, the, the book on this, like totally agrees with that type of stuff too. Like thoughtful, you know, like, like violation of the rules is totally part of it. Adhering so closely to the rules that everything kind of looks like it was made in a, you know, a very simplistic, um, you know, illustrator type program. And it doesn't have the joy and verve of some of these flags that came up in different ways. I, I think that just like, there's just the danger of any sort of like design orthodoxy on it, on, on anything. And so, so I take some blame for that. Like I know that I was the instigator in that, but I really didn't mean everything should look boring. Like that was the whole point was just have something that you love so that you flew it.

• 47:51Roman Mars?

  And I, that, I think that was the part that was like, a little bit missed. So I take some blame, but I also like, think that, um, my whole point was to make something cool and fun that, that you would get a tattoo of because you just loved where you were from. And, and it doesn't matter if your flag is perfect or, or whatever. It just, it, it, it should be, it should represent the city in a cool way. That's, that's all I care about. So.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  And, and to be fair, I think a lot of, a lot of flags that were inspired by your TED Talk ended up better than they were before.

• 48:22Roman Mars?

  I think the vast majority did. Like I, I would say that 90% of it did. I just think that, I just think that occasionally there's just like, you, you see the, like, especially because they have, they often do design contests, which I think is a way to flatten, creativity, honestly. Like I, it brings in a lot of ideas, but then when people vote on it, they choose the one that is kind of the most anodyne, the most that feels like a flag. And now the idea of what feels like a flag has changed into like, a kind of something that isn't super inspiring. You should just hire someone to make something cool and then commission them and, and make it great and put it out there. And if it, um, is a little more. I don't know, shocking or whatever, that that's a good thing. Your study should be unique.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  I'm great. Okay, so that was 15 questions.

• 49:09Roman Mars?

  Oh, good.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  But I also have a bonus here for you.

• 49:13Roman Mars?

  Okay.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Another voice message. I'm gonna play it for you.

• 49:15Speaker 07

  This is Tina from Germany, and my questions are how Romans twins are doing and how they are feeling about their cameos in the early episodes of 99PI.

• 49:27Roman Mars?

  That's a good question. The twins are doing great. Maslow and Carver are about to go to college. I did ask them if it was, if I could say where they're going to college, and they said, no.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Smart, very smart.

• 49:45Roman Mars?

  But they, they, I think they're pretty proud of of their role in the show. I mean, they were, for people who don't know, who didn't listen to early stages, we, Mailchimp was a sponsor in the very beginning. They had a product called Tiny Letter, and their slogan was email for people with something to say. And my kids were very talkative from a very early age, and I thought it'd be funny if I just would say, hey, Maslow, what do you have to say? Oh, hey, Carver, what do you have to say? And honestly, this empire was built on the charm of those twins. If we didn't have that as a sponsor in the very beginning, I do not know if we would be here today.

• 50:25Roman Mars?

  And so it was a huge part of the show. It made people tune in at the, to the end to hear what they had to say. I think they're quite proud of their role. And and when they stopped, I think it was okay for us to stop. But I think they were like a little bit like, you know, because it was like the the company ended the product, and so there was nothing more to do, you know what I mean? And and and it took me a minute to describe to them that they didn't do anything wrong, that that it was just that the thing got canceled.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Wait, they thought it was their fault?

• 50:54Roman Mars?

  They, you know, it was really Carver who who was like, oh, and then, and I was like, but it was, you know, like, they just stopped doing the, they just stopped doing the ads and and and it's okay. And like, people are like, I still love them. And, you know, the people still love them. And so getting that lesson to them was like, was like kind of a sad one. And and I think today they're pretty proud of it.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  And just, just for comparison, too, you know, how old were they when they first started doing the ads?

• 51:22Roman Mars?

  Maybe four, like they were three when I started and maybe three or four when the ads started running and they ran for, you know, like a long time, like six or seven, six or seven years, something like that.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  I did go back in the archives and I did pull one and so this is what Maslow used to sound like.

• 51:41Roman Mars?

  Support for 99% Invisible is provided in part by TinyLetter, email for people with something to say. What do you have to say, Maslow? My favorite thing to talk about is robots and Iron Man suits and stuff. Robots and Iron Man suits. I would subscribe to that newsletter. That makes me, that makes me cry.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  They're so big now.

• 52:03Roman Mars?

  They're so big, yeah. Oh my goodness, yeah. Yeah, I love my adult children, I, but like when you're a parent, like you, you miss those little, those little voices, like it's, it's so sweet, but yeah. Yeah, I'm so excited for the people that they've grown up to be, they're, they're, they're, they're the best.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Right, I mean, I guess we're gonna leave it on the note of you crying.

• 52:29Roman Mars?

  Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. Yeah, that's, that, that works for me, that works for me.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Well, thank you so much, Rome, and this has been really fun.

• 52:38Roman Mars?

  Oh, my pleasure, I've really enjoyed it, thank you so much and thanks for all the thoughtful questions, I thought this was actually really, like this was interesting for, for me too, like I was, I'm really into it, like this was not, this was not bad.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 52:50Roman Mars?

  All right, yeah, take care everybody, I appreciate it, thanks for listening.

• 52:58Roman Mars?

  Maslow, what do you have to say? I'm going to college as of recording this in a, in a just over a month. I'm currently planning to do art and writing. I, like you, are interested in...

• 53:14Roman Mars?

  A lot of different things to only my own fault. And I don't think I'll be able to find a job where I can research everything in the world. But, you know. Maybe you can. Well, maybe I'll find something. Carver, what do you have to say?

• 53:30Speaker 03

  I am planning to study physics and communications. I want to become a science communicator and talk about the things that I love and spread information and teach people, kind of like what my dad does.

• 53:45Roman Mars?

  Oh, that's so touched. That's sweet. Okay, well, you know, like, early on, the show didn't have a lot of advertisers. And the ads with you really was the first solid foundation for the financing of the show. So you basically paid for your own college education by doing tiny letter ads.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. I mean, great. I can now tell people I put myself through college.

• 54:23Roman Mars?

  99% Invisible was produced this week by Vivian and also by our wonderful listeners who submitted such thoughtful questions. Mixed by Martin Gonzalez, music by Swan Real. Kathy Tu is our executive producer. Kurt Kohlstedt is the digital director. Blaney Hall is our senior editor. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, LaShma Dawn, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, and me, Roman Mars. The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. We are part of the SiriusXM Podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora Building in beautiful Uptown Oakland, California. You can find us on all the usual social media sites, as well as our own Discord server. There's a link to that, as well as every past episode.

• 55:08Roman Mars?

  15 years of 99% Invisible at 99pi.org.

• 55:27Speaker 03

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