The Nazi Block

The story of how the Third Reich weaponized architecture as told by a 12,650 ton block of decaying concrete.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Roman Mars?

  Some of the most important design choices are the ones that go unnoticed. The details that together make an experience feel intuitive, comfortable, and above all, exhilarating. At Acura, that means looking closely at how every detail can make your experience behind the wheel more rewarding. Every lesson learned and every idea refined becomes part of what comes next, and it lives inside every MDX, ADX, and Integra. That's precision-crafted performance. That's Acura.

• 0:34Roman Mars?

  If you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break. Indeed-sponsored jobs gets you quality candidates when you need them most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job, the premium status it deserves, at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed-sponsored jobs. This is 99% Invisible. I'm Roman Mars.

• 1:12Roman Mars?

  In the Tempel Hof Schöneberg district of Berlin, there's an enormous concrete structure that sits across the street from a supermarket. It's obscured by trees, surrounded by residential apartments, and gently flecked with German graffiti.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Okay, check 1212. It is 8:34 a.m. I am quite possibly the most jet-lagged I've ever been in my entire life, and I'm waiting for my Uber, or as they say here in Germany, my U-Bah.

• 1:43Roman Mars?

  We sent 99PI producer Vivian Ley there to check it out.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Jet lag be damned, I met up with Hannah Fiesha and Vincent Brookman. Hannah is the curator and deputy director for the Tempel Hof Schöneberg museums, and Vincent is a journalist and tour guide. They were there to show me around a curious neighborhood landmark. From afar, it kind of looks like a derelict brutalist grain silo. Is it a popular site for people to visit, this one?

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Yes, Tempel Schöneberg, it's the most popular.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  And it is the least aesthetically pleasing.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is true.

• 2:19Roman Mars?

  This structure is a bit hard to describe because there's literally nothing else like it in the world. On the surface, it's a very, very big, very, very heavy cylindrical block of solid concrete, about the height of a four-story building.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  This concrete, 12,650, I think, tons of concrete.

• 2:40Roman Mars?

  And sitting underneath those 12,650 tons of concrete is a narrow chamber about eight feet in diameter that descends 60 feet into the ground.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  There's a ladder here that we can't use now, unfortunately, and then it goes, I think, 18 meters into the ground.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Have you guys ever crawled down there?

• 3:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  This entire structure was designed to test the soil in this area of Berlin. That chamber was once an observation area where researchers measured how the soil below was responding to the pressure exerted by the weight of the cylinder on top of it. Whether the cylinder itself was shifting, sinking into the ground, exciting stuff like that.

• 3:22Roman Mars?

  People from all over the world come to Berlin to see what is essentially an abandoned soil testing research tool. And the name of this unusual tourist site is just about as easy to pronounce as it is to describe.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  In German, it's Schwerbelastungskörper, and in English, then it's the heavy load bearing body. Does it make sense in English?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Not entirely. The Schwerbelastungskörper is kind of a tongue twister, but luckily, there's a few other simpler nicknames for it. The Cylinder, the Concrete Cylinder, the Concrete Mushroom, because it sort of looks like a mushroom.

• 3:58Roman Mars?

  But locals in the area have referred to it by a much more nefarious nickname.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  There used to be the nickname Nazi Klotz. A klotz is like a heavy kind of stone that you put onto something, and Nazis, so it's kind of like Nazi block.

• 4:12Roman Mars?

  The Nazi Block.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  The Schwerbelastungskörper is not famous for what it does, but who built it. This big, crumbling piece of concrete was actually the first step in a monstrous urban planning scheme dreamed up by Adolf Hitler.

• 4:31Roman Mars?

  Thankfully, that plan never materialized. Now, this Nazi block is one of the only remaining monuments to the Third Reich's most colossal architectural failure.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  There was a phrase that leaders in the Third Reich said about architecture, that it was "Worte aus Stein," or "Words in Stone." It means that architecture has a specific ability to bypass language and reasoning, to have a direct impact on a person's emotions. If you've ever walked into a family friend's farmhouse style home and immediately felt a sense of coziness, or had your breath taken away while standing at the top of the Empire State Building, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. Architecture can move you and shape your actions in ways that you aren't even aware of.

• 5:19Roman Mars?

  Hitler not only understood this innate power about architecture, he weaponized it.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  When we think about architecture and weaponization, especially around the Third Reich, you know, you might think about the Atlantic Wall or bomb shelters.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  This is Despin Estradagakis, an architectural historian at the University at Buffalo.

• 5:42Speaker 04

  But there are a lot of ways in which architecture can be instrumentalized for ideological purposes that are not maybe as obvious, but that can be very powerful.

• 6:00Roman Mars?

  Hitler was infatuated with art and architecture, enough that he was famously rejected from art school a couple of times. Even early on, he spoke openly about the ways architecture and power are intertwined.

• 6:12Speaker 04

  If you look at Mein Kampf, and I hope you won't, but if you want to torture yourself, in Mein Kampf, he writes about the importance of architecture and particularly the importance of architecture to create the Volksgemeinschaft. And the Volksgemeinschaft is this absolutely central concept in National Socialism. It is the racially unified community.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  The Volksgemeinschaft literally translates to "people's community," and the concept was central to Hitler's racist and anti-Semitic ideology. It claimed that there was a, quote, "racial hierarchy," which there isn't, and a, quote, "ideal way of German life," again, which there isn't.

• 7:00Roman Mars?

  Hitler was an ahistorical idiot who made a number of false assertions. One of them was that the ancient Roman Empire represented the peak of human civilization and that Germans were, quote, "racial ancestors of the Romans and therefore at the top of that hierarchy."

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Which they aren't.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Hitler's looking in particular at ancient Rome and more specifically at the public buildings, the state buildings of ancient Rome, the temples, the baths, the Colosseum. And he says that in its great monuments, a culture expresses its most profound values. It shapes the folks' mind shaft. And also, he's thinking about the things that will remain when everything else fades away. And he says wars come and go, but it is the art and the architecture of a civilization that remains. So he's thinking about this long before he gets into power.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  In 1933, Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany and finally had the political power he needed to create these monuments.

• 8:09Roman Mars?

  He just needed an architect to actually build them.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Could you tell me a little bit about Albert Speer? Like, how do you...

• 8:18Speaker 05

  How many years, how many hours would you like?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  This is Magnus Brechtgen, Deputy Director of the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich.

• 8:28Speaker 05

  Albert Speer was a highly ambitious young architect. He was the son of an architect. His father made a lot of money. His mother had a lot of money. So Albert Speer was completely financially independent. He could do whatever he wanted.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  And what he wanted was the resources and backing of the Nazi Party.

• 8:52Roman Mars?

  Speer was sufficiently talented as an architect, but it was his charm and ruthless ambition that landed him in Hitler's orbit.

• 8:59Speaker 04

  Albert Speer would magically appear whenever Hitler was coming to do a tour of the construction site. You know, a few minutes beforehand, there was Speer and he would join, you know, the architects and the patron and they would walk around the site and, you know, the workmen would just kind of make jokes about this, uh, this young hanger-on. But Speer was there to learn. Like, he was there to learn and to figure out what it was that Hitler wanted, what he liked, what he didn't like, and to be noticed.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Speer was still a relatively young man when he had a streak of good luck. Hitler's top architect suddenly dropped dead. At 28 years old, Speer was launched into the position of chief architect for the Third Reich.

• 9:52Roman Mars?

  Hitler apparently loved pageantry and Speer was more than happy to cater to his theatrical whims. He was tasked with staging the notorious Cathedral of Light display at the Nuremberg Rally Grounds and designing a new Reich Chancellery.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Soon after, Hitler entrusted Speer with his most ambitious design project yet.

• 10:10Speaker 04

  He wants a capital that is architecturally worthy of being the center of a global empire.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  In 1937, Hitler declared five cities as, quote, "Führer cities", which meant that five cities, Berlin, Nuremberg, Munich, Hamburg, and Linz would all become cultural capitals in a future Nazi-dominated Europe.

• 10:33Roman Mars?

  Each city would offer its own special contribution towards the Third Reich. Linz, Hitler's favorite city, would become the center of culture. Munich would be the Nazi Party headquarters. Nuremberg would be the city of Nazi Party rallies. Hamburg would be the capital of putting a piece of meat between two pieces of bread.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Berlin would hold the highest title of them all. Hitler believed that Berlin would become the capital of his, quote, "Greater Germanic Reich" and the Nazi seat of power to the rest of the world.

• 11:04Roman Mars?

  But there was one glaring problem with Berlin carrying that particular title.

• 11:10Speaker 06

  Like Berlin at all.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  This is Paul Keurig, assistant professor and postdoctoral fellow at the University of Michigan. Hitler understood that Berlin was an important city to the cause of national socialism. It was the capital city of Germany and a cultural center populated by millions of people. But for Hitler, that culture was all wrong.

• 11:31Speaker 06

  Berlin was, in the Weimar Republic, became known in the 1920s as this kind of really progressive city with a lot of cabaret and people were kind of experimenting with different identities and sexualities and it was very decadent. So he did not like that at all, this kind of progressive environment.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  I don't know, it sounds pretty cool to me.

• 11:54Roman Mars?

  And outside of its politics, Hitler also hated the city on an aesthetic level.

• 11:59Speaker 06

  Berlin was kind of all over the place. It was the kind of epitome of modernism. You know, there was Bauhaus and all of these styles that Hitler despised.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Hitler's disdain for progressive, modernist Berlin meant that the entire city would have to be rebuilt from scratch. Hitler even proposed that, once the complete urban redesign was finished, the city would be renamed Germania, a name that he believed evoked unity of the German people.

• 12:30Roman Mars?

  In 1937, Hitler gave Speer near complete control over all building projects throughout the city, and he was granted essentially unlimited budget and resources.

• 12:40Speaker 06

  Speer, as a matter of fact, had more power than anyone else when it came to building. So he always wanted more and more and more and bigger and bigger and bigger.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  This Berlin 2.0 was planned to be everything that the city was not: rigidly symmetrical, ordered, devoid of color. And given Hitler's obsession with ancient Rome, the buildings would need to be stylistically reminiscent of Imperial Roman architecture.

• 13:04Roman Mars?

  But these buildings wouldn't just be neoclassical, they would be monumental, meaning that the city would be built on a massive scale never before seen.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  I mean, that's, it's just huge. It says, there's no sophistication.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Magnus Brechtgen again.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  I mean, if you, if we talk about architectural history and how architects think buildings, yeah, it's always about size, to form, to function, to human dimension, and so on. Yeah, so it's a combination. Of finding the best formula when you build something. Yeah. And this is just to make people quiet, to impress them, and to push with violent might away every kind of obstacle against your own ideological conviction.

• 13:56Roman Mars?

  When it came to architecture, Speer did not put much thought into creating a satisfying user experience for those living there. Instead, he focused on how these buildings would propagandize Hitler's beliefs, how they would intimidate, and surprisingly, how they would eventually die.

• 14:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's the famous Ruinenwert Theorie, or Theorie des Ruinenwerts. He said the way he designed his buildings was with a foresight, then in thousands of years, they will just be ruins.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Speer claimed to have conceived of a design principle that he called ruin value. Hitler and Speer believed that every empire comes to an end, and the Third Reich would be no exception. Hitler used to marvel at the ancient Roman ruins, and he wanted civilizations of the future to do the same at his buildings. By avoiding materials like steel rebar and concrete facades, which tend to erode in an ugly way as they break down, he thought their monuments could decay more gracefully. That way, even after the Third Reich ended, their pretty, pretty ruins would pass on their racist ideology long after they were gone.

• 15:09Speaker 06

  So kind of antiquity was coming together with the past, the present, and the future were all becoming one. And that captures what the Nazis really believed.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we're basically now on top of this platform, which is built next to the Schwerbelastungskörper. And we're basically on the same height as the top of the heavy load-bearing body. So we can kind of have the... Panoramic view of Berlin and also what the National Socialists were planning to do.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Back in the Tempelhof-Schöneberg district of Berlin, I followed Vincent Brookman up a platform about 14 meters above street level. This weird concrete cylinder I'd come to Berlin to see was marked as the starting point of Speer's proposed redesign for the city.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  It's really important to understand that everything, or most of what the National Socialists were planning, was not constructed.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Vincent showed me how Speer and Hitler planned for this Nazi megacity to be framed by two long intersecting axes, one of which would be a "avenue of splendors" that ran 4.3 miles from south to north. It would serve as a celebratory parade route.

• 16:26Roman Mars?

  And looming at the end of this avenue would sit a structure that would define the city.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  This is basically where you can imagine, or the direction where you can imagine this hall, Volkshalle, Great Hall, Hall of the People, which was kind of the center of the plans.

• 16:47Roman Mars?

  Years before he became leader of the Nazi Party, Hitler sketched two architectural drawings that he one day wanted to build. The first was a colossal Volkshalle, or People's Hall. It would have been a massive neoclassical assembly space, inspired by the Pantheon, only, you know, bigger.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  The Volkshalle featured a copper dome that towered nearly 88 stories high and would have fit up to 180,000 spectators inside. For reference, that's nine times more people than can fit in the crypto.com arena.

• 17:19Speaker 03

  And they thought that even there was kind of a microclimate within the hall. If there were, I don't know, 150,000, 180,000 people within there, they were even thinking if there were, I don't know, condensation clouds, because there were just so many people in there. And you must imagine, it was supposed to fit like almost 200,000 people, which is huge.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  It's just rain made of sweat and spit and breath.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 17:49Roman Mars?

  At the beginning of the parade route would be the other monument that Hitler sketched. It was a triumphal arch commemorating the German soldiers killed in World War I. Structurally, he wanted it to be reminiscent of the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, only, you guessed it, bigger.

• 18:07Speaker 06

  This triumphal arch was planned as the southern gate to Germania, the New Berlin. And so all the tourists, international tourists, would have arrived at this train station in the south and then walked up to the arch. And then they would have seen in the distance, on the other side of town, this huge congregation hall.

• 18:25Roman Mars?

  The buildings would be built on a scale never before seen in human history, which came with one very obvious structural engineering problem.

• 18:34Speaker 06

  There was no data supporting the fact, will the ground even carry these monstrous monuments?

• 18:41Roman Mars?

  The ground in Berlin is very difficult to build on. The city sits on swampland, so it has mushy, cushy soil.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  You know what doesn't pair well with all that mushy, cushy soil? The weight of the largest buildings ever conceived. The triumphal arch in particular was exponentially more complicated because all of the weight of the entire monument would be concentrated onto narrow pillars. This meant that the ground pressure exerted by the arch would be incredibly intense.

• 19:08Speaker 06

  And if you want to build the biggest of everything, well, you need technological solutions for that.

• 19:15Roman Mars?

  And Speer's technological solution was to build Schwerbelastungskörper. Schwerbelastungskörper.

• 19:24Speaker 06

  It's a schwer belastungskörper. So schwer belastungskörper.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  In 1938, Speer was assigned to carry out any testing necessary to construct Hitler's mega-monuments. And part of that testing was the construction of the schwer belastungskörper, that heavy concrete cylinder.

• 19:46Roman Mars?

  The reason why it was so big and so heavy was because the weight of all that concrete was supposed to simulate the pressure of one of the arch's pillars pushing down onto the ground. Those 12,650 tons weigh more than the Eiffel Tower, the Statue of Liberty, and the Christ the Redeemer statue combined.

• 20:05Speaker 06

  And also in terms of soil pressure, it even puts more pressure on the ground than the Kybes Pyramid in Egypt. So it is really extraordinarily heavy.

• 20:21Roman Mars?

  Not much is known about the actual construction process of the cylinder. The Nazi Party kept details of this megacity project under a tight lid, mainly because the complete reconstruction of Berlin would have demolished somewhere between 50,000 to 100,000 homes in the middle of a housing crisis.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  That was, of course, not even close to the worst consequence of Berlin's urban redesign. It was Jewish Berliners who were targeted first for deportation, and the labor and materials for the project would be supplied at a horrifically inhumane cost.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  There were a lot of people who suffered from it, for example, the Jewish population of Berlin, but also the forced laborers who had to build these projects, and also the inmates of the concentration camps who were responsible for bringing the building material, for example, like the stones and the bricks.

• 21:13Roman Mars?

  In 1941, the concrete cylinder was completed, but by that time, it didn't even matter anymore.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  The "problem" for the, air quotes, "problem", air quotes, for the National Socialist was that the war started, and then there was the question of how to proceed.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  By this point, the US had entered World War II, and Hitler's makeover for Berlin would have to be tabled.

• 21:41Roman Mars?

  Soon after, Speer was promoted from general building inspector to Minister of Armaments and Munitions. He was responsible for maximizing war production. So rather than using slave laborers to build Germania, he used them to produce weapons and war material for the German war effort.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Speer was no longer an architect. It was his job to make sure the Third Reich could maintain its military operations. And it was a role that he was unfortunately very good at.

• 22:08Speaker 05

  He is responsible for keeping the war going for months on end when the war was lost, and he knew that the war was lost. In the last year of the war, more people died than in the previous five years combined. Every day, the war was prolonged. On average, more than 16,000 people died per day, on every single day. So every day, the war went on, another 16,000 people were killed. Speer knew this, and he went on regardless.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  The tribunal is of the opinion that Speer's activities do not amount to initiating, planning, or preparing wars of aggression, or of conspiring to that end. He became the head of the armament industry well after all the wars had been.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  In 1945, after the war ended, Albert Speer appeared before the court at Nuremberg, along with 20 other National Socialist leaders.

• 23:16Roman Mars?

  But over the course of his trial, Speer once again used his charm and charisma to get his way. He condemned Hitler and offered the Allied Council valuable details about how he achieved such a productive war economy for Germany. In the end, he was only sentenced to 20 years in prison.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  I mean, he did spend 20 years in prison. He was found guilty, but do you, in your opinion, did he get away with it?

• 23:41Speaker 05

  Yes, of course, of course. I think most people who knew what Speer had done, and he himself knew what he had done, you see his reaction. There's a film, When It's Reaction, and he, so this kind of, instantly knew, I survived. Yes, true, he got away with it, you know.

• 24:04Roman Mars?

  While serving out his 20-year sentence, Speer authored a bestselling memoir about his time as "Hitler's architect." He filled it with claims of remorse and left out the extent of the part he played in the war. By the time he was released from prison in 1966, some historians even referred to him as "the good Nazi."

• 24:26Roman Mars?

  Hitler said it to me: "You are my architect, and you will do it for me." I was on the way to be

• 24:33Speaker 01

  one of the most famous architects in Europe.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Speer and Hitler's monumental world capital was a city that never came to be. Almost no piece of architecture from this grand urban redesign of Berlin survived.

• 24:55Roman Mars?

  Except one thing.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  It wasn't even possible to tear it down after the Second World War, because it's too big.

• 25:02Roman Mars?

  Albert Speer's Concrete Cylinder.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  What would it take to tear it down?

• 25:09Speaker 02

  A lot of...

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Sprengstoff.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  A lot of dynamite.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  The Schwerbelastingskorb was a 12,650-ton block of solid concrete in the middle of a city surrounded by residential buildings and train tracks. So blowing it up with explosives after the war was out of the question. Berlin was sort of stuck with it.

• 25:32Roman Mars?

  Das Bauwerk außer von den Ingenieuren, die dessen Geschichte kannten und...

• 25:38Speaker 02

  It wasn't really used by anybody, and also except the scientists, the engineers, no one really had any interest in it.

• 25:44Roman Mars?

  Das kein Zugang, also im Sinne sozusagen des Interesses.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  This is Michael Richter, an architect and one of the leading historians of the Schwerbelastingskorb.

• 25:53Roman Mars?

  Das war... So it was more of a pragmatic approach to this building.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Richter says that within just a few years of World War II ending, the German Society for Soil Mechanics picked up the geological research where the fascist structural engineers left off, only minus the fascism. For decades after the war, civilian scientists quietly used the cylinder to generate lots of data on how to build very big buildings on top of really squishy soil. It's actually been helpful for structural engineers all over the world.

• 26:26Roman Mars?

  Von 1948 bis Mitte der 1980 Jahre da so viel Wissen über den Grundbau gesammelt haben, dass also der Großteil dessen, was wir heute...

• 26:35Speaker 02

  It also has a high scientific significance because a lot of the information that we know today about building in this kind of soil, we actually have from the research that has been done on this cylinder. So between 1948 and up until the mid 80s, the experiments that the engineers did on this specific structure is where a lot of the information today comes from.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Why is it that in the 1980s it stopped being used?

• 27:05Roman Mars?

  Keiner mehr. Es hatte keiner mehr eine Frage.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  No one had any questions left.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  In 1983, having run out its use, the concrete cylinder was pretty much abandoned by researchers and fell into disrepair.

• 27:21Roman Mars?

  It sat neglected for about a decade until the district realized that this space could be of some use to teach people about what almost came of Berlin. The cylinder was listed as a protected monument in 1995, and today it's the only tangible relic of the National Socialists' master plan for Berlin.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Even though it's a protected monument, the Schwerbelastungskörper was never built to last. It wasn't constructed with the best materials, since it wasn't even supposed to be seen. So now the concrete is crumbling. The district has even had to set up netting around the outside of the cylinder so that chunks of it don't fall on the people's heads.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  I think it would be sad if this structure would not exist anymore because I think actually it is a little embarrassing for the National Socialists because there are a few other things, but... What is really visible from this planet Germania to changing this megalomaniac world capital, and then you come here and it's just basically this like concrete block.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  When Speer dreamed of the ruins his buildings would eventually become, he probably wasn't anticipating that they would be ruined so soon, or take the form of this decaying concrete cylinder. But in a way, it's the perfect object to preserve Hitler's grand urban planning vision. There is no beauty, there is no glory, it's just an ugly piece of history, set in stone.

• 28:56Roman Mars?

  More with Vivian after the break.

• 29:00Roman Mars?

  This episode is supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every design thing began as something someone imagined, a chair, a sign, whatever device you're listening to this on. Design is imagination with a plan. Claude is an AI built to help you with both. Start with your rough idea, then work with Claude to sketch it, shape it, test it, and build it. Anthropic built Claude to help you discover more. Learn more at claude.ai/99invisible. When your mental health is suffering, therapy can help. But sometimes it's not the whole answer. Talkiatory gives you access to real psychiatric care with licensed clinicians who can diagnose and prescribe medication if it's right for you.

• 29:44Roman Mars?

  It's a simple way to get effective treatment right from home. Talkiatory is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. You can meet with a licensed psychiatrist who takes the time to understand what's going on, builds a personalized treatment plan, and supports you over time with consistent, evidence-based care. All 800-plus clinicians are in-network with major insurers, so you can use your existing insurance instead of paying monthly subscriptions or out-of-network costs. Head to talkiatory.com/invisible to complete the short ...assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.

• 30:28Roman Mars?

  That's T A L K I A T R Y dot com slash invisible to get matched in minutes. Talkiatrie dot com slash invisible. Support for this episode comes from Amazon Business. When it comes to your business, procurement shouldn't be a guessing game. Whether you're running a small business or managing a large organization, Amazon Business offers smart purchasing experiences designed to meet your unique needs. Smart tech, smarter decisions. Streamline your buying process, save time and money, and gain valuable insights. Amazon Business empowers you and your team to buy with confidence. Learn more at amazonbusiness dot com. This fall, L L Bean is celebrating the moments people look forward to all year.

• 31:14Roman Mars?

  The first school drop off, the first sweater weather day, and the first chilly evening around the fire pit. For over 100 years, L L Bean has been part of these traditions. Crunching leaves in Maine-made Bean boots, cheering from the sidelines in Scotch plaid flannel, and walking the dog in a rugged field coat. So grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit L L Bean dot com to shop the fall collection. L L Bean, be an outsider.

• 31:45Roman Mars?

  So we are back with 99 PI producer Vivian Le, who just brought us that story. Vivian, how are you doing?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I am exhausted, Roman. How are you? Thank you for asking, by the way.

• 31:58Roman Mars?

  I'm okay. I'm, yeah, okay. Well, so what do you want to talk about today?

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if I necessarily want to talk about this. It's just something that has to be addressed. But Roman, as you are aware, on the first day of his second term in office, Donald Trump issued a memorandum called Promoting Beautiful Federal Civic Architecture. It's basically at its core in order to promote the use of, quote, "traditional and classical architecture for civic buildings."

• 32:27Roman Mars?

  And this is something that he did back in 2020 at the end of his term, right?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So Donald Donald Trump signed a version of this executive order in like the waning days of his first term in like December of 2020. I remember even back then, everyone here at 99PI was just like, what the is he talking about?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  But Trump claims that the purpose of the order was to, quote, uplift and beautify public spaces and ennoble the United States. Biden overturned it pretty much soon after he got into office in 2021. But now it is 2025 and we are back, baby.

• 33:08Roman Mars?

  So, so even back in 2020, what was Trump trying to accomplish with this order?

• 33:15Speaker 01

  So basically, Trump wants to make classical architecture the preferred style of all federal buildings. The founding fathers, you know, famously wanted the design of the Capitol to evoke ancient Greece and Rome. And so classical was the de facto style for about a century and a half. But of course, tastes change over time. So in 1962, the GSA, which is the agency that oversees federal property, revised its guiding principles for federal architecture. And they stated that an official style should be avoided and that, quote, "design must flow from the architectural profession to the government and not vice versa."

• 33:56Speaker 01

  And so you see that the most common style for federal buildings built between the 1950s and the 1970s actually was brutalism. And Roman, you and I both know that brutalism has been a very divisive style for a very long time.

• 34:10Roman Mars?

  For sure, for sure.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Someone else who apparently hates it is, of course, Donald Trump. And his argument is that we in this country have stopped building beautiful buildings. An early draft for the 2020 executive order was actually titled, quote, "Making Federal Buildings Beautiful Again," which is very on the nose.

• 34:33Roman Mars?

  Right. I mean, it's pretty much echoing the rhetoric that Trump always says, which is about America returning to greatness. So returning to a classical style of architecture in his eyes is the return to the glory of the past.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yes. Now, if you listen to the story that we just played, you might already into it why many people are concerned with this particular rhetoric. Critics have argued that when the far right and/or white supremacists push for a return to, quote, "traditional values of classical architecture," they specifically mean a return to the values of traditionally white, traditionally European, traditionally Christian heritage. And the styles that deviate from that are bad.

• 35:17Roman Mars?

  Right. And since these federal buildings are the buildings that represent the United States, it's easy to see how the arguments against diverse architectural styles are arguments against diversity writ large.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Yes. It's very culture war, but make it architecture. This has basically become a debate about what American identity is supposed to look like.

• 35:40Roman Mars?

  Yeah. So, there's been a lot of noise on either side of this order, but I'm curious what the real-world impacts are of this executive order. Because actually, there's not a lot of federal buildings being built at any one moment.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:55Roman Mars?

  What does it actually mean?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  So, like, first of all, I do think that putting limitations on creativity is bad. Also, who is Trump to define what beauty is?

• 36:05Roman Mars?

  To be sure.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yes. I have seen his buildings. They are hideous. But, you know, I will admit that this so far hasn't been the most consequential move he's made since getting back into office, mostly because he's done so many terrible things. As of recording this, the GSA is facing much bigger problems. So, we will have to see, you know, how this will be implemented. There has been some speculation that one thing it could have a direct impact on is the J. Edgar Hoover Building, which is FBI headquarters. It's this big, blocky, brutalist, concrete building with these perfectly aligned square windows, and it kind of looks like a house of waffles. Like, not a waffle house, but like a house made out of waffles.

• 36:47Roman Mars?

  That's right.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  So it has apparently been falling apart for quite some time. And the plan has been to rebuild a new facility in Greenbelt, Maryland. But Trump has been very vocal about this, posting in all caps, "The new FBI building should be built in Washington DC, not Maryland, and be the centerpiece of my plan to totally renovate and rebuild our capital city into the most beautiful and safest anywhere in the world." So there's that, that that might be directly impacted by this.

• 37:18Roman Mars?

  Yeah, that is very reminiscent to the story we just heard.

• 37:22Roman Mars?

  I mean, to me, what is interesting is that the stories behind these design choices are all kind of based on non-truths. I mean, what we see in the main story and from this executive order is a kind of cherry picking of history that is just wrong. I mean, what Hitler and Trump and even the founding fathers, what they did was kind of use architecture to tell a kind of incorrect and pretty much ahistoric version of what the past was like. I mean, ancient Greece did not look like the white austere Lincoln Memorial. It was full of color and it was chaotic and just the paint just wore away. And so, you know, we see it as sort of monochromatic and sort of has this sort of like august bearing.

• 38:05Roman Mars?

  But like, it really was a mix of things. So not only is it sort of problematic in its execution, it's also just kind of just wrong on the face of it, which is sort of, you know, I don't know, I don't know if that's the most important part of it. Maybe the values are more important than them being wrong about it. But it's still like, it's doubly wrong.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yes. And, you know, I will say that the debate with classical architecture today, it's become more of a political battle than about aesthetics at this point. And I don't necessarily think that...

• 38:40Speaker 01

  If you think that the Parthenon looks nice, that you are a racist. Or if you hate the FBI headquarters, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you're not progressive. But the, the thing that I've run into over and over again while reporting the story is that architecture is always political and you can't separate the two. So, you know, what you build, where you build it, who's it for, and how it expresses your values. Like it's all political, man.

• 39:09Roman Mars?

  That's right. That's right. So yeah, I totally agree. When I go to Washington DC and I see the Capitol building in particular, like it awes me. Like it does the job that it's supposed to do. And I think that is a great and noble thing to feel like this sense of, of like permanence and strength and all that stuff that centered on the US Capitol building. Like I totally feel those things. So there's nothing wrong with that. But if somebody comes up to you, like one of these trad architecture bros comes and talks to you about the values of traditional architecture, man, turn on your heel and walk the other direction because that point of view is a linked trait to a bunch of even more horrible ideas and ideologies. So just, just walk away.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 39:55Roman Mars?

  Thank you, Vivian.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Thanks, Roman.

• 40:01Roman Mars?

  99% Invisible was produced this week by Vivian Le, edited by Joe Rosenberg, mixed by Martin Gonzalez, music by Swan Rial, George Langford and APM, fact checking by Graham Hesha, translation and tape sync by Sarah Zareya Husharecha. Special thanks this week to Paul Kurek and the Berlin Underworlds Association. Kathy Tu is our executive producer. Kurt Kohlstedt is the digital director. Delaney Hall is our senior editor. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, LaShma Dawn, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, and me, Roman Mars. The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. We are part of the Sirius XM Podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora

• 40:43Roman Mars?

  Building in beautiful Uptown Oakland, California. You can find us all on Blue Sky. That's where we're meeting with the public these days, as well as our own Discord server where we have like private discussions about the power broker, about architecture, about flags, about this and that. There's a link to that Discord server as well as every past episode of 99PI at 99pi.org.

• 41:07Roman Mars?

  I know, I know this is, this I need to get, I literally can't say this. Schofen balance skorper. Schwer balance dun skorper. Schwer balance dun skorper. Schwer balance dun skorper.

• 41:26Speaker 05

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change, your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5, only at McDonald's for a limited time. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.