“Jenny From the Block”—Jennifer Lopez

Rob peruses the limelight love story of Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck while celebrating J. Lo’s 2002 smash hit, “Jenny From the Block.” Later, he is joined by writer Julianne Escobedo Shepherd to discuss the music and the drama that came with J. Lo in the 2000s. Host: Rob HarvillaGuest: Julianne Escobedo ShepherdProducers: Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Kermah, and Justin SaylesAdditional Production Support: Olivia Crerie Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:03Speaker 00

  What's up everyone, I'm Nora Princiotti.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  And I'm Nathan Hubbard.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  And we're coming in like a wrecking ball to announce a brand new series.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  That's right, it's every single album Miley Cyrus.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  Deep dive with us into the career of one of our most creative and confounding pop stars.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  We're starting of course with the best of Hannah Montana.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  And ending with her brand new album, Something Beautiful, in June.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  And don't forget about Miley Cyrus and her dead pets.

• 0:28Speaker 00

  We certainly will not be doing that. So listen now on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Boars Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boars Head sandwich when I'm watching a game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boars Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boars Head London broil roast beef, American white cheese, and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers, and Boars Head pub-style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish. And you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus, and dips, condiments, and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boars Head deli counter to shop now. For game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boarshead.com. Boars Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. The Home Depot has everything you need to launch your holiday season in style. Upgrade your yard with this year's hottest holiday decor, including the show-stopping towering Santa. Oh, I like that one. And his impressive reindeer. Both 8.5 feet and both designed with incredible detail that stands out day or night. When you want decor that delivers impact, The Home Depot has it. Make your home Santa's favorite stop with the holiday decor you want, all waiting for you at The Home Depot.

• 1:51Speaker 03

  We come to this place for magic. We come to this place to laugh, to cry, to care, and to duck when a TikTok-poisoned teenager throws a full bucket of popcorn at the screen during the chicken jockey scene. Because we need that, all of us. That indescribable feeling we get when the lights begin to dim and we go somewhere we've never been before, which is a movie theater in the 21st century, where any young person gives a shit. I took eight 14-year-old kids to see the Minecraft movie on a Friday night for my son's birthday, one of the most fascinating and harrowing cultural experiences of my entire life.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  Every kid in the theater screamed the entire time. Basically, a SWAT team showed up. All the adults in the room were shitting themselves. We were not just entertained, but somehow reborn together. Dazzling images on a huge silver screen and also half-chewed, flung remnants of Sour Patch Kids stuck to the huge silver screen. Sound that I can feel, specifically constant screaming, including from some of the 14-year-olds I had personally brought to this theater. Who raised you? Okay, I raised one of you, but what about the rest of yous?

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Somehow, heartbreak feels good in a place like this. But the 12 gin and tonics I drank afterwards just to decompress felt way better. Our heroes, the movie theater ushers are the heroes, obviously. They should all get paid $200 an hour. Our heroes feel like the best part of us. And stories, not the Minecraft movies story, which I could not follow, but other stories. Stories feel perfect and powerful because here they are.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  You know it's legal for me to take you down to the station and sweat it out of you under the lights.

• 3:55Speaker 05

  I sweat a lot better in the dark.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  Anyway, once upon a time, we also came to this place to watch the 1990 action thriller Dick Tracy, directed by and starring Warren Beatty in the titular role of hard-boiled 1930s comic strip detective Dick Tracy. Dick Tracy wears a bright yellow raincoat. Dick Tracy boldly battles tommy-gun wielding gangsters with names like Flat Top and Big Boy Caprice. Dick Tracy's name is Dick Tracy, and Dick Tracy exchanges breathy, innuendo-laden dialogue with the mysterious bombshell nightclub singer Breathless Mahoney, played by Madonna. I sweat a lot better in the dark.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  Yo, this movie was rated PG. I don't think so. If Madonna's in your movie, your movie ain't PG. Sorry. If Madonna has come to this place for magic, if Madonna's just sitting in a movie theater by herself, watching a movie she's not even in, the movie Madonna is watching is no longer PG, even if it is PG. Madonna specializes, amongst Madonna's many specialties, Madonna specializes in R-rated deliveries of ostensibly PG-rated dialogue.

• 5:17Speaker 04

  Testify.

• 5:20Speaker 05

  You want my testimony? Tell me you want me. If you do that, I'll do anything you say. How bad do you want Big Boy? It's up to you. Tell me you want me. Tell me you want it all.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  I'm not playing you clips from this movie to be rude. Dick Tracy was pretty good. I saw Dick Tracy in the theater when I was 12, and I know what I'm talking about. The Dick Tracy McDonald's game with the scratch-off cards where you could win a million dollars, or more likely, free hash browns. The Dick Tracy McDonald's game was better, or at least more exciting than the Dick Tracy movie, but the movie was fine. And even at 12 years old, I know enough to know that Madonna and Warren Beatty are a real-life romantic couple. They are smooching off-screen as well, and therefore, the romantic heat, the dazzling magic emanating off the screen is real.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  I read an interview with Warren Beatty in Rolling Stone. A 1990 Rolling Stone cover story with a cover line, "How does Madonna's Dick Tracy keep it up?" Question mark. That's a pun. And the interviewer times how long it takes Warren Beatty to answer questions. How many seconds Warren takes to think about it before answering? So Warren Beatty says, quote, "Madonna is," 21 second pause, "simultaneously touching and more fun than a barrel of monkeys." 11 seconds. "She's funny," and she's 21 seconds, "gifted in so many areas and has the kind of energy as a performer

• 7:03Speaker 03

  that can't help but make you engaged." End quote. And the interviewer goes, "Sexual energy?" And Warren Beatty says, quote, 47 second pause, "Um, she has it all." End quote. Sizzling. A super famous movie star and a super famous pop star who wants to be a movie star, smooching together on screen and off. It's true love. It's everlasting. What could go wrong? One thing that could go wrong is that even in the early 90s, when you're a super famous movie star smooching a super famous pop star who wants to be a movie star, there is no off-screen anymore.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Now it's 1991 and Warren Beatty and Madonna are in another big movie together. This time it's a documentary called Madonna: Truth or Dare, directed by Alec Kosichian, one of the great lurid, baffling, cringe-worthy and utterly necessary pop star documentaries of its time or any other time. Madonna with the glass bottle, et cetera. So in the movie Madonna's on a world tour, right? And she's losing her voice, so she goes to the doctor. And she brings along both her documentary camera crew and her boyfriend, famous movie star Warren Beatty. And no smooching transpires. Instead, Warren Beatty sits in a corner,

• 8:27Speaker 03

  wearing sunglasses indoors and smirking and complaining about how they're putting this scene with the doctor in the movie.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  This is crazy. Nobody talks about this on film?

• 8:42Speaker 06

  Talks about what? The insanity of doing this fall on a documentary. What? Well, this is a serious matter, you're through, yes? Why should I stop here?

• 8:55Speaker 03

  You can just tell from the tone of Warren Beatty's voice that he's wearing sunglasses indoors. Warren is complaining here, not unreasonably, that Madonna, via this bonkers, groundbreaking 1991 documentary, Madonna is doing her part to eradicate the very notion of privacy. She is eradicating her own privacy, but also, on a long enough timeline, she's gonna eradicate everybody's privacy, starting with her grumpy boyfriends.

• 9:30Speaker 06

  But does anyone say it? Who's anyone? Well, anyone that comes into this insane atmosphere. You realize that they all feel it when they come into this atmosphere. When they come into your dressing room, when they come wherever you are, they feel crazy. Now, do they talk about it? No, they accept it.

• 9:49Speaker 03

  Now, this clip has come up before on this podcast, way back when, when we discussed Madonna in detail. And we determined, I determined, we determined that this clip does not so much invent reality television as it invents the concept of tiresome dudes performatively hating reality television. Also, it feels relevant to say that Warren Beatty became a super famous movie star in the 60s, arguably the early 60s. So what we got here is Madonna, the 80s pop star who wants to be a movie star, teaching Warren Beatty, the 60s movie star, that the very definition of stardom has changed. The scope has changed.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  The scope of superstardom has widened enough to encompass the whole world and everything that you, the superstar, will ever do in it. The spotlight is always on. The camera is usually on. We come to this place for magic, but the magic makers are never off duty. So Madonna's doctor asks if she wants to talk off camera, and Warren Beatty just laughs at him, or really at her.

• 11:00Speaker 07

  Do you want to talk at all off camera? You have nothing to say.

• 11:04Speaker 06

  She doesn't want to live off camera. Much less talk.

• 11:08Speaker 07

  That's it, I think that's what it is.

• 11:10Speaker 06

  There's nothing to say off camera. Why would you say something if it's off camera?

• 11:14Speaker 07

  And tomorrow you're gonna be...

• 11:15Speaker 06

  What point is there of existing?

• 11:20Speaker 03

  And I regret to inform you that true love is not, in fact, everlasting. In the case of these two particular lovebirds, Madonna and Warren Beatty, are no longer smooching, I R L. But see, like so much Madonna stuff, with this Truth or Dare documentary, Madonna was so ahead of her time, it hardly registers now how insanely ahead of her time she was, exactly. By the 2010s, right? Every pop star's got at least one super intimate, behind the scenes, warts and all, painfully vulnerable documentary. Katy, Taylor, Gaga, Billy, Beyonce, Selena, Ariana, Bieber, et cetera.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  And that intimacy, that vulnerability, that reality, is painstakingly calculated and stylized and, you know, faked. But as a pop star now, you have to at least perform the idea that you've renounced your right to privacy and you're never off camera now. And more so than even Madonna, I think we all know who to blame for that.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  Ozzy, there you go, go.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  Bubbles! Oh, come on, Sharon. I'm fucking Ozzy Osbourne, the prince of fucking darkness. Evil, evil, fucking evil. I'm gonna follow the fucking bubble then.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  Let's blame rock god Ozzy Osbourne and his wife, Sharon Osbourne, who star in the titular role in the early 2000s MTV reality series, The Osbournes. In this scene, Ozzy Osbourne, heavy metal titan and the prince of fucking darkness, is displeased by the introduction of Bubbles into his stage show. So this TV show, The Osbournes, which... premiered in 2002. This show is deceptively and absurdly ahead of its time as well, in that it demystified Ozzy Osbourne, the ant-snorting, bat-biting, Alamo-desecrating prince of fucking darkness, himself. The second episode of The Osbournes

• 13:27Speaker 03

  is mostly devoted to watching one of the coolest and wildest rock stars of all time yelling at his dogs for treating his house like he treated the Alamo.

• 13:40Speaker 04

  Who pissed on my fucking carpet? That bastard fucking dog man. I'm gonna throw you in the fucking pool. Where are you? Get the fuck out of my house, you fucking... Get the fuck out. Go and get the fuck out.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Ozzy Osbourne peed on the Alamo once, allegedly, just to clarify that. I didn't watch this show at the time because I was an intellectual. But did MTV let him swear the whole time? Or did they bleep all that out? I hope they bleeped him. Bleeping is way funnier. The first season of The Osbournes got bigger ratings than any show in MTV's then 20-plus-year history. So they did three more seasons. And this show was great for Ozzy. I don't think very many of Ozzy's hardcore fans found this show intrusive or embarrassing or legacy-threatening. Ozzy is Ozzy. Ozzy's double helix of silliness and badassness is indestructible. But with Ozzy's help, we've set the tone.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  We've set the standard here in the early 2000s for how rock stars, pop stars, movie stars, et cetera, ought to behave. We demand 24-hour access or the illusion thereof. To quote a famous rock and roll song, "Here we are now, entertain us." To quote another famous rock and roll song, "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave." Which brings us to two other crazy, smooching kids. A different movie star and a different movie star who also wants to be a pop star.

• 15:14Speaker 04

  You don't seem all that scared.

• 15:17Speaker 05

  Of course I am.

• 15:18Speaker 04

  You don't act like it.

• 15:20Speaker 05

  What do you want me to do, scream? I didn't help much, anyway. No, I'm just gonna sit here, take it easy, and wait for you to screw up.

• 15:32Speaker 03

  Hold on, wrong movie. I meant her, but not him. Uh, yeah, see, this is Out of Sight, the Steven Soderbergh romantic crime thriller from 1998, starring George Clooney as the handsome bank robber. He's big boy Caprice, I guess, and Jennifer Lopez as the heroic US marshal pursuing him. She's Dick Tracy, I guess. George and J-Lo are currently locked in the trunk of a moving getaway car together. I brought up this movie on purpose, actually. I brought up this movie because it's the greatest movie of all time.

• 16:06Speaker 05

  This is not gonna end well. These things never do. Turns out I get shot like a dog. It's gonna be in the street, not off a goddamn fence. You must really see yourself as some kind of Clyde Barrow, huh?

• 16:23Speaker 03

  You mean a Bonnie and Clyde?

• 16:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  She means the 1967 film Bonnie and Clyde, starring Warren Beatty in the half titular role of Clyde Barrow. Out of Sight, greatest movie of all time. Do I believe that? Who knows? Do I enjoy saying it? Absolutely. Phenomenal movie. Phenomenal on-screen chemistry between George Clooney and J-Lo. I'm gonna re-watch Out of Sight tonight, but these two weren't smooching IRL. No, unfortunately, I mean these two crazy smooching kids.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Where you going?

• 17:03Speaker 05

  It's turkey time.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Huh?

• 17:10Speaker 05

  Gobble, gobble.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  What?

• 17:16Speaker 03

  Okay. This film is called Geely. It is a darkish romantic comedy. Came out in 2003 and stars Jennifer Lopez and her then-boyfriend Ben Affleck. Geely is a notorious box office bomb. Geely is a critical punching bag. Geely is perhaps a celebrity relationship ruiner, but you know what? The critics were wrong. I dig Geely. Geely is super underrated, dude. It's a hidden comedic gem. It's a fearless and astute battle of the sexes that interrogates our... I'm just kidding. This movie is trash. Roger Ebert described Geely as, quote, "too disorganized for me to recommend it,"

• 18:01Speaker 03

  end quote. And he was one of the nice ones. If you don't know the context for Turkey Time, stay out of it. Don't get involved. Hey, listen, you there, listen to me. Do not watch Geely, or re-watch Geely, even as like a bit, or for content. Don't do it. Let's not get into it. I'm not playing you any more clips from Geely, because that would be rude. But yeah. Here they are. Famous actor Ben Affleck and famous actor who is now a pop star, Jennifer Lopez. Ben and Jennifer, AKA Bennifer, AKA the hottest celebrity couple on the planet. They are smooching on and off screen.

• 18:45Speaker 03

  They are ubiquitous. They are intoxicating. They are in love. And their love has created what Warren Beatty might call "an insane atmosphere." A suffocating media circus that never leaves town. In 2002, Jennifer Lopez releases an entire album called "This Is Me Then", about her abiding love for Ben Affleck. There's a song called "Dear Ben" and everything. After a few false starts, Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck are set to be married in September 2003. But three days before the wedding, Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck call it off. Bennifer, in fact, releases a joint media statement decrying the media.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  Quote, "Due to the excessive media attention surrounding our wedding, we have decided to postpone the date. When we found ourselves seriously contemplating hiring three separate decoy brides at three different locations, we realized that something was awry." End quote. Let me think about that for a second. The 2003 Bennifer wedding is in fact not postponed, but canceled. Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck split up. They are both heartbroken. Undoubtedly, the 2003 tabloid media ecosystem is collectively heartbroken. As well, Ben and Jen soldier on with their respective blockbuster careers,

• 20:13Speaker 03

  spanning from the Oscars to the Super Bowl halftime show. They get married to different people and then eventually divorce those different people. Hijinks ensue, unpleasantries ensue. The better part of 20 years passes, and then, and then, they get back together. Ben and Jennifer recommence smooching IRL. They convene Bennifer 2.0. They rekindle their romance and get married for real on August 20th, 2022. And in 2024, Jennifer Lopez releases a new album, a sequel album, in fact, called This Is Me Now, in which

• 20:55Speaker 03

  she sings about both therapeutic-type self-love, that's pretty new, and her abiding love for Ben Affleck. That's not new at all. There's a song called Dear Ben Part Two and Everything. This album is accompanied, also in 2024, by a genuinely bonkers, hour-long, don't-call-it-a-music-video, avant-garde, romantic drama musical situation called This Is Me Now: A Love Story. And that is soon accompanied by an only marginally less bonkers 2024 feature-length documentary called The Greatest Love Story Never Told, which tells the story of J-Lo making that

• 21:39Speaker 03

  bonkers musical while also telling the story of Ben Affleck's immense discomfort with all of this.

• 21:49Speaker 04

  When Jen and I broke up for, the catalyst for that was this massive amount of scrutiny around our private life.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  I don't like my tone. I fear that my tone has gotten excessively glib and disrespectful. Geely is not a very good movie, but I fear that I overdid it. And despite how it may appear, I actually try very hard generally not to overdo it. A simpler and perhaps more humane reading of the Bennifer and Bennifer Part Two saga is that due to the suffocating tabloid media circus, due to the insane atmosphere their love created, it became difficult, if not impossible, for normal people to regard Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez as normal people, regular people, regular people in love who

• 22:40Speaker 03

  struggled enormously with jerkoffs like me glibly manufacturing their love into content. Ben Affleck knows what I'm talking about.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  I had a very firm sense of boundaries initially around the press. While Jen, I don't think objected to it in the way I did. I very much did object to it.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  And Ben is speaking here about the glib media jerkoffs in 2003. But one of the more compelling subplots of the evolution from Bennifer in 2003 to Bennifer Part Two in 2024 is how the glib media jerkoff ecosystem has changed in the past 20 years, logistically and technologically and morally, and how the glib media jerkoff ecosystem has not much changed at all.

• 23:31Speaker 04

  Getting back together, I said, listen, one of the things I don't want is a relationship on social media. Then I sort of realized it's not a fair thing to ask.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  And listen, I enjoy a good paparazzi photo of Ben Affleck looking exhausted and contemplative whilst smoking, or whilst staring out at the sea with his cool dragon tattoo, or whilst balancing a comically large array of Dunkin' Donuts purchases. In this documentary, Jennifer quotes Ben as saying, "I've become the symbol of the beleaguered man." And that's funny, objectively, I think. But just because you're a rad meme doesn't mean you're not a normal human person.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  It's sort of like, you know, you're gonna marry a boat captain and you go, why don't I like the water, you know? We're just two people with kind of different approaches, trying to learn to compromise.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  It won't end well. These things never do. Bennetford Part Two will soon collapse under its own weight as well. Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck will divorce in January 2025, and that will be the end of that. And so now, with the grim benefit of very recent hindsight, it's a trip, it's a complicated emotional experience, watching this year-old Bonkers J-Lo movie about their rekindled love affair, and then watching the year-old Bonkers J-Lo documentary about the making of that Bonkers J-Lo movie. But even if the love has died, again, for good this time, the art endures, and the music especially endures.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  And so, with our hearts open, and hopefully my personal glibness restrained, let's go back to 2002, back when we first learned that Jennifer Lopez was a boat captain, and back when Ben and Jennifer both at least appeared to be a little more comfortable in the water.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 19th episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, Cole and the 2000s. And this week, we are discussing "Jenny from the Block" by Jennifer Lopez, from her 2002 album, This Is Me Then. That's this is me...then. Okay. I thought about it. You want to know the raddest possible job you could have in 2003? Decoy bride for the Bennifer 1.0 wedding. Holy shit. They seriously contemplated deploying three separate decoy brides at three different locations.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  Tell me everything about this plan immediately. I need details. I need blueprints. I need contracts. I need a job description. I need to know what the decoy bride J-Lo would have done exactly. Do you just stand there with your back to the cameras? Or do you get to do stunts? Do you get to put on a wedding dress and sprint zigzag across a minefield to avoid gunfire from all the news helicopters? Do you get to smooch a decoy Ben Affleck? Can you imagine how rad it would feel to add the words decoy bride for the Bennifer wedding to your resume? Unbelievable. This is glib.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Shit, I'm still being glib. I gotta calm down. Give me a second.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah, they have the perfect, I could watch a game then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta pant, that's my number one, I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com/Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. When the sun goes down, the appetizers come out. Yeah, you heard that right. Late night half-price appetizers are here at Applebee's. Saucy, sweet and spicy boneless wings. Crispy, cheesy mozzarella sticks. Creamy spinach and artichoke dip.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Your favorite apps half-price available every single night because why should appetizers have curfews? Tap the banner to learn more. Dining only for a limited time at participating locations. Restrictions apply. Copyright 2026 Applebee's Restaurant LLC.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  All right, that's better. I feel better. I feel calmer and more respectful now. How's about you and I listen to some Paula Abdul?

• 28:46Speaker 03

  It is 1988 and the pop diva landscape is robust. Who we got? We got Madonna, of course, running the joint. We got Whitney Houston. We got Janet Jackson. We got Taylor Dane. Ooh. We got Tiffany and Debbie Gibson. We got George Michael, of course, he counts. And we got Paula Abdul. San Bernardino, California native Paula Abdul. Tremendous dancer and choreographer turned pop star Paula Abdul. An esteemed alumnus of the Laker Girls, an esteemed music video choreographer for, most notably, Janet Jackson. In 1988, Paula Abdul releases her debut album called Forever Your Girl,

• 29:31Speaker 03

  which spawns an incredible four number one singles on the Billboard Hot 100, starting with "Straight Up," and then continuing with this preposterously charming jam.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Even if he promised me the world, just remember I'm forever your girl. Listening to pop radio in the late 80s and early 90s is just a delightful, a transcendent, a euphoric experience. Thanks in no small part to Paula Abdul. You may observe that Paula Abdul does not have a booming, volcanic, octave scaling, gospel-inflected powerhouse-type voice. No, not really. It is a high, thin, lithe nasal voice.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Paula Abdul's and she is carefully presented in the blockbuster videos for all these blockbuster number one songs as a double threat at minimum, as a good to great singer and a great to excellent dancer. Phenomenal on-screen chemistry between Paula Abdul and a rapping, smoking, dancing, suspenders-wearing cartoon feline Lothario named MC Scat Cat.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  It ain't fiction, just a natural fact. That song, of course, is Opposites Attract, the Paula Abdul number one hit with the most famous video. Paula Abdul is a top-tier pop star now, with all the tabloid exposure that entails. Tabloid exposure that may or may not have adversely affected her 1992 marriage to movie star Emilio Estevez, whose best movie is, you guessed it, Men at Work. Thank you for agreeing with me. Paula and Emilio get divorced in 1994. Celebrity marriage is hard. Celebrity marriage is nigh impossible. But hold on. Let us not disrespect

• 31:56Speaker 03

  the fourth number one single off the first Paula Abdul record, which is the one with the video that scandalized my mother.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  He's a lover boy, a play. He don't play by rules. I love all these songs. I was just sitting there watching this video and my mom walks in the room and gets mad at me. I once got in trouble for simply being in the same room as a TV showing this video. You could get arrested in certain states just for watching the video for cold-hearted. It is quite lascivious, choreography-wise, quite a bit of writhing.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  This video was directed by David Fincher. Listen, Paula Abdul does not exactly have like an Aretha Franklin caliber voice, all right? But Paula Abdul, right off the rip, has proven herself to be a robust pop diva extraordinaire. She is a great to excellent dancer and a good to great singer at minimum. Would you mind, though, if we indulged a dissenting opinion?

• 33:15Speaker 03

  You better brace yourself.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, Paula Abdul ain't shit. Now, one thing, Paula Abdul ain't shit.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  Mommy, that girl is singing off key on the record.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  Oh, dear. Here we have Whitney Houston. All time, all universe, robust pop diva Whitney Houston, just talking wild shit about Paula Abdul on camera in super candid archival footage from the 2018 documentary, Whitney. This scene is in the trailer. Oof, this is Whitney Houston talking wild shit to her mother, revered gospel singer, Sissy Houston. That's Sissy Houston immediately going, "Nippy, why'd you say that?" When Whitney starts talking wild shit. Nippy is Whitney Houston's childhood nickname. Sissy Houston continues to at least attempt to defend Paula Abdul, at least from a

• 34:16Speaker 03

  commercial standpoint.

• 34:22Speaker 03

  Because she got an image that we all know ain't really true.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  Now, who knows what Whitney Houston means here when she asserts that Paula Abdul's image ain't really true? But I ought to mention that in 1991, Paula Abdul was sued by one of her three credited backup singers on the Forever Your Girl album. A singer named Yvette Marine alleged that on at least two songs, including Opposites Attract, the lead vocal track is a studio tweaked combination, a composite.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Of Paula's voice and Yvette's voice. Per the Los Angeles Times, Yvette sued Paula Abdul's label, Virgin Records, alleging, quote, "false and deceptive packaging, and therefore seeking, quote, 'proper credit and compensation for her vocal contributions,' end quote. Now Paula Abdul's publicist called that lawsuit ludicrous. That's a great legal word, ludicrous. And when that case went to trial, this case went to trial with a jury. At the trial, a jury deliberated for just three hours and then decided in Paula Abdul's favor, dismissing the charges and thereby asserting that Paula Abdul is the only lead

• 35:43Speaker 03

  vocalist on her own record. Once again, per the Los Angeles Times, evidently Paula wept with joy when the verdict was announced. Robust pop divas got to defend themselves. In the court of public opinion, if not also in actual court. And as Whitney Houston proves, robust pop divas don't always get along. Robust pop divas got to defend themselves against each other. Would you care for another example? Your new album is about divas. I wanted to sort of throw out a few names of divas and sort of get your one word reaction, sort of get your impression of their singers. So.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  You better brace yourself. This is Christopher John Farley of the Wall Street Journal talking to Aretha Franklin in 2014 and subjecting Aretha Franklin to a diva opinion lightning round. Or really, this is subjecting other divas to Aretha Franklin's opinion. Aretha calls Adele a young singer, good singer. Aretha calls Alicia Keys a young performer, good writer, producer. The word young is a deadly weapon in the hands of Aretha Franklin. The guy says Whitney Houston and Aretha ever so slightly visibly softens. And she says, quote, "Whitney was a talent, definitely a talent.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  She had a gift and sissies baby," end quote. Then the guy says Nicki Minaj and Aretha passes, which is delightful, but none of that is why this clip is famous. This is why this clip is famous.

• 37:23Speaker 07

  Taylor Swift. Okay, great, uh, great gowns, beautiful gowns.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Oh my God, just stupendous. I always forget how important the okay is there, just the annihilating deadpan glee of that okay. But yes, great gowns, beautiful gowns is the most devastating four-word diva versus diva takedown of our young century. There is only one other contender.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Und was ist mit J-Lo? Die kenne ich nicht.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Ups.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  I don't know her. If, like me, you know, I don't know her primarily as a gif, a gif maybe with a caption, Mariah Carey shaking her head and smiling viciously and silently mouthing the words, I don't know her, then perhaps you, like me, were unaware that this clip is primarily in German. It's an interview from a German tabloid TV show called TaF. Sidebar, Bobby Finger and Lindsay Weber of the fantastic podcast Who Weekly, they contributed to a big Mariah package and billboard, and they report that this clip was first uploaded to

• 38:51Speaker 03

  YouTube in 2008 and has been viral ever since. But this footage probably first aired in 2003, based on Mariah's hairstyle and the Beyonce song playing in the background, etc. You can trust them. Sidebar number two, Mariah Carey hates slash doesn't know Jennifer Lopez for a bunch of reasons presumably, but mostly it's because Mariah's ex-husband, big shot record executive Tommy Mottola, he's the guy who signed J-Lo and then positioned J-Lo in a suspiciously Mariah Carey-esque manner. And also, there's a sample, a Yellow Magic Orchestra sample that Mariah used for glitter, but then that same sample suspiciously turned

• 39:32Speaker 03

  up on a J-Lo record, and Mariah was ultra pissed. This shit is important, but it requires a great deal of exposition. We'll talk about the Yellow Magic Orchestra some other time. The point is, I don't know her. The point is also, "Oups" in German is apparently "Oups", but no, really, the point is, "I don't know her", devastating. "I don't know her" is a first-ballot meme Hall of Famer. What Whitney Houston is to Paula Abdul, and what Aretha Franklin is to Taylor Swift, that's what Mariah Carey is to Jennifer Lopez. How do analogies work in notation? It's Whitney Houston, Paula Abdul, Aretha Franklin, Taylor Swift,

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Mariah Carey, Jennifer Lopez. If that's wrong, at least I got to say "colon" seven times in 10 seconds. Jennifer Lynn Lopez was born in New York City, specifically the Bronx, on July 24, 1969. She's a Leo. That may not matter to you, but my wife is also a Leo, and I'm here to tell you, it matters to Leos. Jennifer Lopez's parents were born in Puerto Rico. Jennifer Lopez is a middle child. In The Bonkers 2024 Documentary, about the making of her Bonkers 2024 Not a Music Video movie, Jennifer Lopez says that her mother was a life-of-the-party narcissist,

• 40:57Speaker 03

  and her father worked long hours and slept all day and wasn't around much. Ben Affleck jumps in at this point and says, "Jen felt emotionally neglected as a child." And he also says, "I don't think there's enough followers, or movies, or records, or any of that stuff to still that part of you that still feels a longing and a pain. Ultimately, that's the work that you've got to do on your own." End quote. To illustrate this point, about doing the work on your own, in The Bonkers Not a Music Video, J-Lo at one point meets a cut-and-bruised-and-neglected eight-year-old version of herself. And the eight-year-old version of J-Lo says, to adult J-Lo, she says,

• 41:41Speaker 03

  quote, "I didn't get enough love from you." And adult J-Lo apologizes and says, "I love you." And eight-year-old J-Lo says, "Say it again." And adult J-Lo says it again, and then they dance together. This is on Amazon Prime. This is the second wildest piece of content available on Amazon Prime after Reacher. By high school, Jennifer is already both a track star and an accomplished dancer. After high school, she's in traveling musicals. She's a backup dancer for the likes of New Kids on the Block and Janet Jackson. She's dancing in music videos for the likes of EPMD and Dougie Fresh. And starting in 1991 with season three, she appears on the tremendously popular Fox

• 42:25Speaker 03

  sketch comedy show In Living Color as part of the Fly Girls, the show's in-house dance troupe. By the mid 90s, Jennifer is doing movies. Shout out to 1995 action comedy Money Train, also starring Wesley Snipes and Woody Harrelson. And in 1997, Jennifer Lopez becomes a legit big deal movie star, thanks to her titular role in the hit musical biopic Selena, in which Jennifer portrays Mexican-American icon and all-time, all-universe robust pop diva, Selena Quintanilla. Now, to be clear, Jennifer Lopez does not sing in this movie. Instead, Jennifer lip syncs Como la Flor and so forth over Selena's old vocals.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  But Jennifer Lopez is legitimately fantastic in this role. She skillfully navigates both the tragic and comedic elements of this role. She deftly plays both Selena, the pop star, and Selena, the human being. This also came up before in the Selena episode, but I am 300% sincere when I say that the best moment in the Selena movie is J-Lo's delivery of the line, "I love pizza."

• 43:40Speaker 03

  What? Are you gonna eat that whole thing? Yes. Watch me. I can eat a whole Medium pizza by myself.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  I love pizza.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  That's a movie star, dude. In 1997, Jennifer also stars in the films U-Turn and even better Anaconda. That's a movie star, dude. In 1998, Jennifer stars opposite George Clooney in Out of Sight, AKA The Greatest Movie of All Time. She's a movie star, dude. She's a movie star who also wants to be a pop star. And if J Lo wants to do something or be something, she's gonna do it and be it. And so in 1999, J Lo becomes a pop star. Get a load of the sauce she puts on the word trust.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Fantastic word delivery of the word trust by Jennifer Lopez, pop star. This song is called If You Had My Love. It is the lead single and opening track on Jennifer Lopez's debut album, which is released in 1999 and is called On the Six. That's a New York City subway line, a local. The On the Six record sells 3 million copies. If You Had My Love is the first of Jennifer Lopez's four number one singles on the Billboard Hot 100 over the course of her ongoing 20-plus year musical career. I dig the way she sings the words, "That's what you said."

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Now, there's a lot of vocals, a lot of vocal tracks coming at you here, a lot of stacked up J Lo's, but her singular charisma abounds, I think. We got a ton of big shot producers working on this On the Six record, like 15 plus producers, ranging from Rodney Jerkins to Polk and Tone to J Lo's boyfriend at the time, Puff Daddy. To quote Aretha Franklin, "Pass." What is immediately striking about Jennifer Lopez pop star is her stylistic range. J Lo is comfortable navigating the fluid and lively and increasingly slick combination of pop and R and B and hip hop dominating the mainstream landscape by 1999.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  She is also, of course, perfectly comfortable as a leading light in the so-called Latin explosion on late 90s American pop radio, driven by the sudden gigantic global popularity of J Lo and Ricky Martin and Shakira and Marc Anthony and rebranded smooth era Carlos Santana. J Lo can cover an awful lot of ground, musically and otherwise, and she can do it with a legit movie star's infectious charisma. What I'm telling you is that if she tells you to get loud, you're gonna get loud. Here we go. Let's get loud, let's get loud. Turn the music up, let's do it.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, so this song's called "Let's Get Loud." It was co-written by robust pop diva Gloria Estefan, who spent the 80s charismatically ensuring even rhythmically challenged white people such as myself that the rhythm was gonna get even us. Eventually, now, there's a lot of vocals, a lot of vocal tracks, a few different physical voices coming at you on "Let's Get Loud." We got longtime Gloria Estefan backup singer Donna Allen and big shot 70s soul singer Betty Wright singing backup here on "Let's Get Loud," quite loudly. But Jennifer Lopez, in this endeavor and all other endeavors, is giving 110%, 110% of

• 47:49Speaker 03

  the time.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  And yeah, you may observe that Jennifer Lopez does not have a booming volcanic octave scaling gospel inflected powerhouse type voice. No, not really. And in 1999, here at the dawn of a new century, this record sounded like a movie star trying to be a pop star in the same way that in movies Madonna radiates the palpable aura of a pop star trying to be a movie star. It just hits you different when you know this is a person trying to be good at a second thing. Right? This record on the sixth, this is a brand expansion. This is an incursion. This is very much J Lo's second thing, but

• 48:46Speaker 03

  she's doing this and we're going to listen to her do this. And that includes some Sade adjacent slow jams.

• 49:08Speaker 03

  That song's called If You Only Knew and I dig it, but I did say Sade adjacent. Nobody's coming for Aretha's crown or Whitney's crown or Sade's crown, but Jennifer Lopez has quickly emerged as an excellent to tremendous actress, a great to excellent dancer and a good to great singer at minimum. Can we all agree on that? No, of course not. I can hear Mariah Carey viciously shaking her head even as I say that, but in my house ain't nobody turning down Waiting for Tonight when it comes on the radio.

• 49:58Speaker 03

  I've dreamed of this love for so long. That's the Jennifer Lopez version of Waiting for Tonight. This is a cover. I didn't know that. A post Spice Girls, American dance pop girl group called Third Party first released this song in 1997. I don't know about that name, Third Party. So like, what? Ross Perot? My long-suffering editor, Justin Sales, is like, you could probably sharpen that Ross Perot joke, Rob. And my honest answer is, I doubt it. I wouldn't say that Jennifer Lopez's cover of Waiting for Tonight is transformational or nothing. That's not the right word, but you get what I'm saying. This is a chorus so huge that apparently, we all just wanted someone more famous to

• 50:43Speaker 03

  sing it. Whether J Lo sings it better is arguable. But so can we agree that going forward in perpetuity, Jennifer Lopez is going to be a lot of fun to argue about? Okay, good. Thanks for agreeing with me, because now it's really time to start arguing.

• 51:14Speaker 03

  Specifically, if you want, we can argue about how much of this is actually Jennifer Lopez's voice. This song is called "Play." It appears on Jennifer's second album, released in 2001 and called J Lo. Great song, "Play." A bubbly, flirty, insinuating little electro thing, written by four people, including young aspiring, robust pop diva Christina Milian, who wanted to release her own version of the song on her own debut 2002 album, but label machinations ensued and J Lo got it. And so here we have a hit J Lo song with Christina Milian's vocals blended into the chorus. And this is not a big deal at all.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  As pop music goes, and yet it's a big enough deal that people are still talking about it 20 years later. In 2023, in a New York Post Page Six story with the headline, "Christina Millian Shuts Down Jennifer Lopez Beef Speculation Over Song Play," Christina calls J-Lo an icon, and she says, quote, "It's funny when people talk about this being kind of a thing about me singing on the song with Jennifer. I mean, I have background singers on some of my songs. It's no different than Michael Jackson having background singers on songs, or Britney Spears. This is what music is made of. You want a blend of voices.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  It makes songs better to me," end quote. I think it's fair to say that a blend of voices makes this song better as well.

• 53:05Speaker 03

  So J-Lo's second album, called J-Lo, comes out in January 2001 and includes a song called "I'm Real." It's fine. That song is fine. Jennifer Lopez sings it by herself, basically, and it's fine. The original "I'm Real," that's the song with the Yellow Magic Orchestra sample that pissed off Mariah Carey, but let's not get mired in the details, right? Yellow Magic Orchestra are from Japan, but I don't want to talk about them right now. Honest. I mean it. But so in July 2001, the J-Lo album is re-released with a new improved version of "I'm Real," the murder remix of "I'm Real," a duet featuring the one, the

• 53:46Speaker 03

  only Ja Rule. And the "I'm Real Murder" remix hits number one and defines an era of pop radio and kicks metric tons of ass. Genuinely delightful song, the "I'm Real" remix. The Rick James sample, right? The cuddly crunchiness of Ja Rule's voice and the brash mellifluousness

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Of Jennifer Lopez's voice and also maybe a little bit of Ashanti's voice as well. Ashanti, the robust early 2000s pop diva who co-wrote the I'm Real remix. Ashanti, who recorded that remix's demo with Ja Rule. Ashanti, who has been doing genial interviews for the past 20 years, where she admits that, okay, yeah, she's pretty bummed she didn't get to do this song herself. Ashanti, who nonetheless provides backup vocals for the J-Lo version. Perhaps you get an Ashanti vibe off the word insecurity.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  And when I'm feeling sexy, who's gonna comfort me? My only problem is their insecurity.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  And bizarrely, this exact situation happens twice. A perfectly decent song on this J-Lo record gets a bouncier and poppier and objectively superior murder remix featuring Ja Rule and co-written by Ashanti. And Ashanti wants to record it herself, but instead settles for singing backups on the famous J-Lo version. All of that also happens on another song called Ain't It Funny? The remix with a Craig Mack sample, right? And all these backup vocals, these assists from fellow robust pop divas. Unfortunately for J-Lo, this is part of the J-Lo narrative. Mariah Carey, in a 2001 interview with Talk Magazine,

• 55:40Speaker 03

  she talks shit about J-Lo and she also talks about that Yellow Magic Orchestra sample that pissed her off, a sample of the Yellow Magic Orchestra song Firecracker from their groundbreaking 1978 self-titled debut album. You know Firecracker, the song that goes doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. But I don't have time for this. I don't. And Mariah Carey, in the midst of this J-Lo shit talking, Mariah says, quote, "If I had the luxury of not actually having to sing my own songs, I'd do that too," end quote. Yikes. But meanwhile, I'm still stuck on the I'm Real remix. And specifically, I'm stuck on the word insecurity. It should be noted that Jennifer Lopez can talk shit as well.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  There's a genuinely bananas Jennifer Lopez interview from 1998, an interview with Movie Line, where J Lo talks just wild shit about a whole bunch of people. J Lo on Salma Hayek, quote, "We're in two different realms. She's a sexy bombshell, and those are the kinds of roles she does. I do all kinds of different things. It makes me laugh when she says she got offered Selena, which was an outright lie. If that's what she does to get herself publicity, then that's her thing." End quote. J Lo on Cameron Diaz, quote, "A lucky model who's been given a lot of opportunities.

• 57:08Speaker 03

  I just wish she would have done more with. She's beautiful and has a great presence, though. And in my best friend's wedding, I thought, when directed, she can be good." End quote. J Lo on Gwyneth Paltrow, quote, "Tell me what she's been in? I swear to God, I don't remember anything she was in. Some people get hot by association. I heard more about her and Brad Pitt than I ever heard about her work." End quote. "I don't know her." J Lo on Winona Ryder, quote, "I was never a big fan of hers." End quote. J Lo on Madonna, quote, "Do I think she's a great performer? Yeah.

• 57:52Speaker 03

  Do I think she's a great actress? No. Acting is what I do. So I'm harder on people when they say, oh, I can do that. I can act. I'm like, hey, don't spit on my craft." End quote. Now, three years later, in 2001, J Lo would disavow this article. She told Vanity Fair, quote, "I was so misquoted and so taken out of context, and it's a sore subject for me." End quote. But I think you know what this means. It means that Whitney Houston, Paula Abdul, Aretha Franklin, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey, Jennifer Lopez, Jennifer Lopez, Salma Hayek, Cameron Diaz,

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Gwyneth Paltrow, Winona Ryder, and Madonna. But see, no, still, this word insecurity in the blockbuster remix of a song called "I'm Real," the very existence of a blockbuster Jennifer Lopez song called "I'm Real," it is pervasive. This idea that Jennifer Lopez is forever trying to prove to you, yes, you personally, she's trying to prove to you that she is both a multi hyphenate generational superstar and a normal, real, human person. What defines J Lo's 30-plus year career is the effort, the tremendous, the Herculean effort to assert both her greatness

• 59:16Speaker 03

  and her normalness. And I suspect that at this level, proving that you're normal is much harder than proving that you're great. In 2024, when that bonkers "Not a Music" video movie comes out, that movie's full title is "This Is Me..." Now, a love story. The great critic and friend of the show Wesley Morris wrote about it for the New York Times, and Wesley says, quote, "Lopez wants, needs, hungers, craves, desires, seeks, pines, wishes, dreams, hopes, believes, yearns, aches, hustles. You can see all of that in the hard violence of her dancing. Nothing

• 59:59Speaker 03

  comes easy. Nothing flows. It's a lot of bursts and breaks." Then he says, "For 30 years she's been at this. Mere entertainment might not be enough. Lopez has always seemed out to prove, rarely to savor, relish, or bask. On the 23-year-old remix of her hit song "I'm Real," Lopez coos that second word, transforming it from a declaration of fact to a matter of existential doubt." End quote. That's why Wesley's the best. But see, this is the thing about J Lo in perpetuity. She has always seemed genuinely, gravely concerned that you might be fooled by the rocks that she's got.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  "I Stay Grounded As The Amounts Roll In" is a remarkable line for a pop song. The internal rhyme of "I stay grounded as the amounts roll in" and also the internal conflict of "I stay grounded as the amounts roll in." How grounded are you, really, if you feel compelled to sing about how grounded you are? You ever hear the phrase "cool, don't advertise"? I've heard this phrase all my life, and I know what it means. And yet, all my life, "cool" has been advertised to me relentlessly. Sincere question, do we want our pop stars to be grounded? Do we want our pop stars to be real?

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  Do we want stars to be like us? What does "real" even mean in this context? And most importantly, is J-Lo real even on Oprah?

• 1:02:04Speaker 03

  Yes, J-Lo is real even on Oprah. Jenny from the Block appears on Jennifer Lopez's third album, released in 2002 and officially titled "This Is Me..." Then, on the album version, the song guest stars Jadakiss and Styles P of God-tier Yonkers rap trio The Locks. But all due respect, we'll talk about The Locks and the Yellow Magic Orchestra some other time. Because the video, there is Jenny from the Block, the song, and then there is Jenny from the Block, the video. The video's the one with the yacht.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  In the Jenny from the Block video, Jennifer Lopez sings "I'm Down to Earth Like This" shortly after paparazzi-style surveillance footage of Jennifer Lopez and her movie star boyfriend Ben Affleck cavorting lasciviously on a yacht. And also, there's footage of Ben Affleck pumping gas shortly before Ben and Jennifer sit in their convertible, looking at paparazzi photos of themselves in a magazine. I don't like my tone again, but it is legitimately fascinating to me, the fundamental and deliberate dissonance between the message of Jenny from the Block, the song, and Jenny from the Block, the video, but really also the song.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  "I have always remembered the sauce, the marvelously dissonant sauce." J-Lo puts on the words, "To me, it's like breathing." But I'd forgotten about "I love my life and my public."

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  (Singing) "I love my life and my public. Put God first and can't forget to stay real. To me, it's like breathing."

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  "Can't forget to stay real. To me, it's like breathing." It's a mesmerizingly odd way to convey a mesmerizingly odd idea in a mesmerizingly odd song called Jenny from the Block, in which Jenny uses the phrase "my public." In 2024, talking to Variety, talking to reporter and friend of the show, Stephen Rodrick, Jennifer Lopez says, quote, "Jenny from the Block should have been me back in the Bronx, kind of walking around the neighborhood." That's what the video should have been, end quote. She says that Ben Affleck on a yacht, that concept was the director's idea. The Jenny from the Block video was directed by Francis Lawrence.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  He went on to direct a bunch of Hunger Games movies. Jennifer, talking about both her and Ben, she says, quote, "We were so ourselves, and we never thought that people would take offense or be angry at us for kind of living out loud and making..." Making a cool video. We were so naive, end quote. But she also says, I don't regret it. Even though it wound up turning out ugly for us in the media, it was very defining for me and my musical trajectory. Some very beautiful iconic images came out of that video. It's the one thing, no matter where I go, people still go, hey, there's Jenny from the block, end quote. Can I tell you something?

• 1:05:31Speaker 03

  Jenny from the Block is a good song. Great sample of the 1975 disco tune Hijack by Enoch Light and the Light Brigade. That's the flute, right? Hijack is the song that goes do, do, do, do, do. Hijack, do, do, do, do, do. Your love. The Beatnuts sampled Hijack a couple of years earlier in 1999, but Jenny from the Block was a much bigger hit. This is me responding to an edit. My long-suffering editor, Justin Sales, got mad that I didn't mention The Beatnuts. I'm a people pleaser. It's my nature. I'm letting you into the editing process here. Anyway, can I tell you something? Jenny from the Block is not the best song on the This Is Me Then album, which is also my favorite J Lo album.

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  This song is called "The One", and backup singers aside, I just really dig the way J Lo sings the words, "your girl." She sings the words, "your girl", the way she sings the words, "I'm real", and she means it here, too. This record, This Is Me Then, is more of a throwback 70s soul deal. It came out in 2002, but it doesn't sound like 2002 now, the way her 2001 album, J Lo, sounds like 2001 now. You get me? And not all of these songs are about Ben Affleck, but I think we can safely assume that the song called "Dear Ben" is.

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  And I really dig the way she sings "I Love You" too. I wonder how I'd process this song and this whole album, and really Jennifer Lopez's whole career. I wonder if I'd like this song more or less if I didn't know that this song is sung by a super famous movie star and pop star who is serenading her movie star boyfriend. And a year later, they'd break up. Nearly 20 years later, they'd get together again, and she'd make even wilder art about their ultra-celebrity relationship, and then they'd break up again. Do pop songs work better with all that celebrity subtext? Or is it more just celebrity baggage? There's a scene in the Bonkers 2024 documentary about the Bonkers 2024 Not a Music Video movie,

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  where Jane Fonda, who is leading the Zodiac Council in the Bonkers Not a Music Video, just trust me on this. Jane Fonda, off-camera but still very much on-camera, is counseling Jennifer Lopez not to do any of this. She's telling J-Lo not to flaunt Bennifer 2.0. Jane Fonda says, quote, "I don't entirely know why, but I feel invested in you and Ben, and I really, really want this to work. However, this is my concern. Like, it feels too much like you're trying to prove something instead of just living it. You know, every other photograph is the two of you kissing, the two of you hugging," end quote.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  And Jennifer Lopez, off-camera but forever on-camera, she says, quote, "That's us living our life," end quote. Can they both be right? Is Jennifer Lopez such a hard worker that she's being totally real, even when she works way too hard to try to appear real? Alls I know is it's very difficult to listen to a Jennifer Lopez song called "Dear Ben" and not get mired in all this celebrity stuff. But the song is just lovely enough and just real enough that I won't stop trying.

• 1:09:42Speaker 03

  This is not a normal person singing this song. If a pop song were sung by a normal person, it wouldn't be a pop song. And maybe Jennifer Lopez gets less normal the more she tries to convince you that she's normal. But this song, despite being called Dear Ben, and addressed to an ultra celebrity named Ben that I know way too much about, this song feels refreshingly human to me. It feels like a girl singing about a boy. Nothing less and nothing more. And it's heartbreaking, honestly. But as another movie star once told me, sometimes heartbreak can feel good. Shaq here.

• 1:10:24Speaker 03

  What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10" once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven day return policy at carvana.com.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  We are honored to speak once again with Julianne Escobedo Shepherd, longtime writer and editor for Hearing Things, Pitchfork, Flaming Hydra, Harper's, Bizarre, The Fader, Jezebel, et cetera. She is working on her first book called Vaquera. Julianne, thank you so much for being here again. Thank you so much for having me. I am excited.

• 1:11:18Speaker 03

  I am excited as well. Okay. Why do you think it's so important to Jennifer Lopez that we think of her as Jenny from the block? You know, that we think of her as real, that we think of her as a somewhat normal person? Like, why does realness matter so much to her specifically? Well, I think, you know, she, I don't know if you heard, but she's from the Bronx. And I think that

• 1:11:48Speaker 03

  I think it's a big part of her identity and I think she might feel A little bit, maybe a little weird about ascending to the point that she has. I think it can be really hard when you grow up with a kind of struggling, working class family and then succeed. You have like a weird sense of class betrayal. Speaking from my own experience and I kind of just, but the other thing is like, it just, it's really good for marketing.

• 1:12:30Speaker 03

  Right. There's, there's a sincere reason and a more cynical reason. Right.

• 1:12:38Speaker 03

  I was, well, I was gonna ask, does it matter to you? We know that it matters to her, but like, I, I don't think of, you know, whatever they're, wherever they came from, I don't think of Beyonce or Mariah Carey as relatable or real now. Like, that's not necessarily what people want from their pop stars. Like, aren't pop stars supposed to be sort of abnormal by definition? Yes. I mean, like, you know, if you think back to like Madonna's heyday of like, I mean, sure, the eighties, she was like the cool like club girl, but like, you know, in the nineties, Madonna didn't want us to think she was on her plane.

• 1:13:18Speaker 03

  So now we're in this social media era and I just think everyone has to quote unquote, be relatable. And I think it's convenient because so many people are billionaires and just actually live lives that, that none of us can relate to. So it's like, if we don't think about how like they as people are. Relatable, we might, we might start thinking about their like carbon emissions and that wouldn't be good. Oh, okay. Right. You know what I mean? And so in that sense, J Lo, I know exactly what you mean. And in that sense, J Lo was early to this, you know, Yeah.

• 1:14:02Speaker 03

  realization because you know Jenny from the block is way before social media, right? Like she's not yet in the era. I don't even know if she's in the, I don't remember when stars there just like us became, you know, the, the catchphrase, the tabloid catchphrase. But it seems like she was early to this idea that all, as you say, all pop stars have now where you have to be somewhat relatable or accessible, or just not seem like a billionaire all the time, even if you are one. Well, I think also this, it's a little bit of cover for the fact that she's not doing like melismas or whatever. So like, you think,

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  you think to like what worked for Mary J Blige, say, like the fact that she obviously is an amazing singer, but she didn't have like that really trained voice and she kind of like seemed like, you know, the around the way girl, right? And I think that maybe J Lo took a page out of that because she's like, well, I'm not like out here doing vocal runs. Maybe if I relate to you as like your next door neighbor, you won't expect me to do vocal runs. That's, that's a, that's a very smart way of looking at it. You wrote a piece for Pitchfork, I think about the last album, the most recent album, This Is Me Now, and you called J Lo's voice notoriously serviceable,

• 1:15:28Speaker 03

  which I thought was just a really lovely and fantastic and accurate phrase. So as a pure singer, you know, is she a better singer than she gets credit for? You know, do we only grade her on the curve of a Mariah or an Aretha? Like she's not on that level. But you know, is her voice good for what she's trying to do? Or is she still, you know, somewhat struggling? I think she's not overrated, no, or underrated.

• 1:15:58Speaker 03

  I think, you know, I think like on some songs for sure, her voice is like, you know, maybe, obviously we shouldn't be. Gauging her on a Mariah level. We shouldn't be gauging anyone on a Mariah level, really. But like, I do think she tries to do that sometimes and it's just like, we don't need that. She can just sing. She doesn't need to be doing like all of that.

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  Right. Does the backup singer stuff, like the vocal tracks, like Ashanti, Christina Milian, you know, even Meghan Trainor, I think more recently, like that really bothers some people, just the idea that she has help vocally a lot of the time. Does it particularly bother you or is this just kind of the way pop is made? I mean, the only thing that really bothers me is that some of these songs were meant to be Ashanti's, but allegedly, but I mean, Yeah, I think we, I think we know at this point. Yeah.

• 1:17:06Speaker 03

  Allegedly, but I mean, everyone has backup, like almost everyone has backup singers. Like that does not bother me at all. And it's, it's like the, if she were fronting, like she were some sort of like, you know, purist, then maybe, but no one is going to a J Lo album thinking that like, she doesn't have help. It's fine. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What did you make of her as a pop star, J Lo as a pop star at first? Like right in the late nineties and early 2000s? Like, did she strike you as a movie star, trying to be a pop star, you know, or did she seem like the real thing? Did it feel like a natural fit from your perspective right away?

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  So like,

• 1:17:56Speaker 03

  I'm like telling myself. So my first introduction to J Lo was like, kind of most people's introduction to J Lo outside of like her fly girl status, was that she was playing Selena and there was a bit of a controversy at that time that

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  they had a non-Mexican-American playing a Mexican.

• 1:18:20Speaker 03

  Mexican American, I think there in in the community, there was like a little bit of beef that a Puerto Rican girl was doing it. But obviously she did a great job. I feel as though it it made sense because she was playing a pop star, so it was a fairly like seamless transition. It kind of felt like the embodiment of her aspirations and and the girl that she was playing in Selena, you know. Yeah. That that's yeah.

• 1:18:59Speaker 03

  It's a good answer. It's a great answer. I I at first, at least, I associated her with like the the late nineties Latin explosion, you know, with Ricky Martin and Shakira, you know, even Santana around Smooth. Like, did that feel like a real movement? Or was that more of sort of a corny music industry thing where people were sort of catching up to the fact that, you know, these people, many of them were already huge stars? Yeah, corny music industry thing, honestly. Um, it was very, that was around the time when a lot of marketing agencies realized that that Latinos were making money and could spend it on things, which is bananas.

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  But I remember, you know, in the late nineties. I know, like the early two thousands, I remember getting like emails and press releases or whatever, like this untapped US Hispanic market or whatever. And it coincided with that. And I think it was really just like people kind of all realized at the same time that like,

• 1:20:07Speaker 03

  you know, Hispanics, quote unquote, have like purchasing power. But it was cool, though, because I think it really did break through. I mean, there's even today, there are still like entire huge, massive movements of Spanish speaking artists that like non Spanish speaking people in the US. Don't even know exist. So I'm glad it happened, but it wasn't like as deep as, you know, some trend pieces pieces made it to me, I think.

• 1:20:42Speaker 03

  Another thing that struck me immediately about J Lo is how hard she was working and how hard she was working to show you how hard she was working. Like you bring up Madonna, like there are points where the point, there are points of Madonna's career, I feel like where her effort is really, it's prominent. She's showing you how hard she's working. And at other times, it's sort of effortless. You know, it's there's sort of a gliding to it. And you're supposed to be impressed by how easy, you know, this whole pop stardom thing is. But I feel like J Lo, wall to wall, has been about the effort, you know, has been about almost the strain of working this hard and doing everything she's doing. Did you all, did you get that vibe from her, yourself, you know, that, that, that she was just trying so hard all the time?

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  Yes, she is trying so hard. I, another thing that you don't, you may not know is that she doesn't drink. She never drinks. She tells you that a lot. And I think that goes hand in hand with like, how she is working all the time. And it's like, respect, this is like, the work ethic, like, you know, US Latinos, like, we're out here. And I can, I get that, I get that pressure. But also like, girl, like, you need to unionize yourself. Like, take, That's right. Take, take a break, my friend. Go on, strike against yourself. Yes.

• 1:22:09Speaker 03

  Uh, okay. So talking about Jenny from the block specifically, does the video overshadow the song, you know, the yacht and the paparazzi, like Ben Affleck, like, does all that stuff sort of obscure the message of the song, which is supposed to be like, I'm from the Bronx. I didn't know if you know, I'm from the Bronx, very humble, etc. Or is like, is the song always been about like, the contradiction, you know, of her being a huge pop star who's also trying to convince you of how real she is? It's always been the Contradiction, but I think the concept of the video was a little too advanced for the time it came out. Because when it came out, it was really just like, what are you talking about?

• 1:22:55Speaker 03

  Like, you're legit on a yacht, you're so famous, you're dating this famous Hollywood actor. Like, you are not like hitting the streets like that. But the video did kind of overshadow the song too, because it was so influential in fashion. Like, this woman had me out here wearing like, Capri cargos. And, and that was not cute. But I was gonna do it. No, that didn't, okay. Anything for J Lo. Very.

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  I very much wanted to ask you about the, the fashion aspect of it. And I didn't even want to embarrass myself by like guessing or getting it all specific. So what is J Lo's legacy fashion wise? What did she, you know, besides the cargo capris? That was one part of it, but like, what, what did she bring to the table immediately from a fashion perspective? I mean, cargo capris, uh, newsboy caps, high heeled tims.

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  And it was that in from that video alone, it was a look and I was at the wet seal so fast. But also,

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  um, she did have a line of jeans and I did walk around the early two thousands with J Lo's signature on my butt in rhinestones. So like, I think, I think she's really given us a lot. I, to be clear, like, I am ragging on her. Out of Love. I love J Lo. Sure. That's very clear. That is absolutely clear. Okay, great. You were you were ragging on her as only someone who loves her can rag on her.

• 1:24:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like it's like family.

• 1:24:56Speaker 03

  I have to say that I really love the whole This Is Me Then album. Like Jenny from the Block is is the big hit, of course, but like it's there's a I love the love songs, right? I love almost the mushiness of it, the Ben Affleck of it all. Like, it really works on me. Like, is J Lo underrated as an album artist? Yeah. Yeah. This Is Me Now. Totally love This Is Me Now also. She is really good at those ballads, like, and I hate ballads, like, as a rule, I despise ballads. Okay. She's really good. She buys into it. She buys into this, like, princess narrative. It's wild. And like, her just sincerity

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  about her love for Ben Affleck 20 years apart.

• 1:25:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's very sincere. It's beautiful. Is that why you hate ballads? Is the insincerity? Like, you hate ballads, but you like J Lo ballads? Like, what is it she specifically does to affect that transformation for you?

• 1:26:02Speaker 03

  Because she they're imperfect and she's because she's trying so hard and she makes imperfect ballads. I mean, like, generally, also, ballads, I just like a fast BPM. I love a high BPM and and like, and, you know, she she doesn't like it. She I guess she does do schmaltz. I guess that's what she like specializes in, but it's like self-aware. I don't know. I just want to give her a pass because she's so full of love.

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  There we go. There we go. So you liked This Is Me Now, the record is was just 2024. It feels like much longer ago, but you know, it's not that long ago that she puts out, as you say, the second album of songs about how much she loves Ben Affleck, like 20 years apart. So that record, you know, you wrote about it for Pitchfork and you wrote about it really tenderly, but like that record really worked for you immediately. Yeah, I loved it. Maybe I bought, maybe I too was in love with love, but I really liked it. We all were, I think, at that point. We were all rooting for them at that point, I think. That's such a weird saga now, like that record, like the Bonkers documentary that she made about the Bonkers Amazon movie that she made where she's, there's the hearts, the mechanical

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  heart that you have to feed flower petals. And like, it's just the most CGI I have ever seen in one place in my entire life. But like, it's, it's over. Like, this is all about a romance that has once again ended. And so like, do you, do you hear all that music? And do you even hear, you know, Jenny from the block now differently now that you know how it all finally ended?

• 1:27:49Speaker 03

  I think it ended how it was supposed to end, honestly.

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  You know, and also actually it is a perfect ending because lest we forget, she spent like $20 million of her own money to make. That a lot of, and she wanted you to know it. And you know, it was, that's another thing she wanted you to know. She wanted you to know it. If you watch the documentary, it was very clear that they were going to get divorced. You can just tell Ben's patience is waning. J Lo is like, I've got to do this. I believe in myself so much. He's like, why did you give our love letters to these random strangers?

• 1:28:38Speaker 03

  That's right. That's, that was a great moment. When he walks in the studio and everyone's reading his love letters to J Lo and he's like, I didn't know I was content, honey. You should have known. But apparently it didn't. It is. I just, I wonder how I would have received that documentary if I'd watched it while they were still together. In retrospect, as you say, it's very easily, easy to tell that this isn't gonna end well. But there, it was this weird blip that again was a year ago where it felt like this was the storybook ending, you know, to the wildest, you know, celebrity romance ever, you know, and then it collapsed again. And I think you're right that that's the way it was always gonna end up.

• 1:29:22Speaker 03

  But it's, it's just very weird to think about all this music now in that context. It is very weird. To be clear, I watched both of those things the day they dropped and watching them.

• 1:29:38Speaker 03

  I, I knew, like, I feel like if you've ever been in a relationship, you watch that doc and you're like, oh yeah, these guys are, they got six months tops. This is not working.

• 1:29:52Speaker 03

  Um, but I really appreciate that this was the arc that we deserved. And this is the arc they deserved. And I'm really sorry it didn't work out. And they had to like buy three houses or whatever and then sell them and like, but, um,

• 1:30:08Speaker 03

  you know,

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  this is, it's just like a truly beautiful American love story.

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  That's the way love goes, as not J Lo sang. Yeah.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  Wow. Okay. Well, that, this has been wonderful, Julian. It's always great to talk to you. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Can I say one more thing really fast? Please do. Please, please. Um, El Cantante, she should have got an Oscar. I'm not kidding. I was gonna ask. Okay. I think, I read things now, you know, where people are like, yeah, Out of Sight was great. You know, Hustlers was great. Everything else is just like rom coms or whatever. But I, I dug that too, El Cantante. Like it's, it's, you know, are there, what is it about that movie that really speaks to you? And are there any other J Lo movies that we are wildly underrating now? No, just that one. But.

• 1:31:06Speaker 03

  That's all right. But there's one more. It's very important. I don't know. There's not two, there's three. And El Cantante is the third. Okay. Yeah. Made in Manhattan is good.

• 1:31:14Speaker 07

  But I don't think that's the Oscar one.

• 1:31:16Speaker 03

  Oh, sure.

• 1:31:17Speaker 07

  Um, she just really put her all into it. And I think that in another, if that movie had come out now, she would have been in the conversation and that movie would have been in the conversation. Mark Anthony would have been in the conversation, but it came out back when, um, Oscar voters still didn't care about Latinos or anyone but like.

• 1:31:45Speaker 03

  We've solved all those problems now.

• 1:31:47Speaker 07

  Yes, yes. Totally. Um, but yeah, she just, it's just such a wrenching story and she knew, I think that if she's

• 1:31:58Speaker 03

  It is.

• 1:31:59Speaker 07

  messed it up, she was never gonna be allowed back in the Bronx. So she had to really do it. She did.

• 1:32:07Speaker 07

  She really deserved.

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  Excommunicated from the block.

• 1:32:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  No, I know you're not kidding.

• 1:32:13Speaker 07

  She deserved an Oscar. Okay.

• 1:32:16Speaker 03

  Oh, man. It's too bad. She'll get there. She might not get there, but she deserves to get there.

• 1:32:22Speaker 07

  She deserves it.

• 1:32:26Speaker 03

  Thanks so much, Julianne.

• 1:32:28Speaker 07

  Thank you so much, Rob. This has been fun.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  Thanks very much to our guest this week, Julianne Escobedo Shepherd. Thanks as always to our producers, Justin Sales, Jonathan Kerma, and Bobby Wagner. Thanks to Olivia Creary for additional production help, and thanks very much to you for listening. And now let's all go listen to Jenny from the Block by Jennifer Lopez. See you next week.

• 1:33:18Speaker 03

  Holiday Club. Guess who's joining the club this season? Walmart Plus. Yep, Sam's Club Plus membership now comes with Walmart Plus at no extra cost. Two memberships, one great price. Just 120 bucks a year can save you time and over $700. Want to get in on the membership duo of the century? Visit sam'sclub.com. Come join us. Sam's Club.

• 1:33:38Speaker 05

  Annual plan only. Auto renews, T and C apply. Estimate based on average combined Walmart Plus and Sam's Club Plus savings among members of both for one plus year versus non-member or club member pricing slash fees. Excludes membership fees. See Walmart Plus terms and Sam's Club terms for more info.