“How You Remind Me”—Nickelback

This week, we’re celebrating the Canadian rock band Nickelback! Along the way, Rob discusses butt rock, anti-Nickelback memes, and his friend stealing his girlfriend in high school. Later, author and columnist Leslie Gray Streeter joins the show to defend Nickelback fans and much more. Pre-Order, Leslie’s new book, ‘Family & Other Calamities: A Novel’ here. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Leslie Gray Streeter Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Additional Production Support: Olivia Crerie Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  I'm Yasi Solak and I'm here to announce a brand new season of my Ringer original podcast, Bandsplain, the show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists to you and yours. This time, babe, we're going across the pond. That's right, I'm absolutely chuffed to be talking about the music scenes of 80s and 90s Britain. I'm talking Madchester, I'm talking baggy, I'm talking shoegaze, I'm talking Britpop, mate. So tune in every Thursday starting November 7th for a new episode of Bandsplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 0:58Speaker 02

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

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• 2:03Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food. And nothing hits like a Boar's Head sandwich when I'm watching the game. Really, any game day sandwich better with Boar's Head. Philly cheesesteak, layer up buttery slider rolls with Boar's Head London broil roast beef, American white cheese and picante provolone. Delicious. Then add roasted onions, peppers and Boar's Head pub style horseradish sauce. I love horseradish and you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. They've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus and dips, condiments and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter shop now for game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 2:47Speaker 05

  I just woke up one day and they weren't cool anymore. So much stuff wasn't cool anymore. So many, so many rock and roll bands that I loved when I'd fallen asleep the night before. When I awoke that next morning in my bed sheets with transformers on them, those bands just weren't cool anymore and would never be cool again. Happened in an instant, just a galactic light switch flipped off by the middle finger of God. A galactic light switch that God flipped from cool to uncool. I awoke on the morning of Tuesday, September 24th, 1991,

• 3:31Speaker 05

  into a world I did not recognize where day was night and up was down and black was white. And what had been cool was now permanently uncool. Rock and roll had changed forever and thus MTV had changed forever. And thus my whole world, not to mention my whole personality, had changed forever. And of course, there is a single rock and roll album released in America on Tuesday, September 24th, 1991, that inspired God to extend his middle finger and flip the switch.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Hold on now. No, no, why, no, sorry. But no, from their fifth album called Ceremony and released in America on September 24th, 1991, this is The Cult, fantastic English Goth-adjacent, grandiose rock and roll band, The Cult, with an extra grandiose power ballad called Sweet Salvation that I have never heard before in my life and I feel bad, but it's the truth because the very day this record came out, so far as I could tell anyway, these guys became uncool. I don't make the rules, I just follow them. Suddenly The Cult felt a bit stodgy, a bit

• 4:55Speaker 05

  Jurassic, a bit pre-apic, a bit pompous. Pompousness had never bothered me before, but dude, I turned 13 years old in 1991 and I loved whatever MTV told me to love, and MTV told me to stop loving earnest pompous music like this, so's I stopped. Yes, I still slept in bed sheets with Transformers on them as a 13-year-old, but by then I was sleeping in Transformers sheets, like ironically. Listen, I went to bed and this sort of extra grandiose power ballad action was cool, and I woke up the next morning and it was disastrously uncool, and that's all there is to it.

• 5:46Speaker 05

  Uncool. Uncool now, uncool forever. Really? Such was my perception at the time. Anyways, Billy Duffy, lead guitarist for fantastic English Goth-adjacent, grandiose rock and roll band, The Cult. Billy Duffy, laying down some rad solos and tasty licks and whatnot? Uncool now. What separates this particular rad and tasty Billy Duffy guitar solo on Sweet Salvation from some other prominent 1991 guitar? Solos I could mention Pearl Jam guitarist Mike McCready's solo on Alive perhaps, or Smashing Pumpkins dictator Billy Corgan's solo on I Am One.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  Lot of sonic and spiritual grandiose type overlap between these three. What made those guys cool and Billy Duffy uncool now, at least in my jumbled goofball perception, was Nirvana. Nirvana's Nevermind also came out on September 24th, 1991, and Blood Sugar Sex Magic by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Nirvana killed hair metal. Nirvana killed power ballad pompousness. Nirvana killed any hard rock that was not specifically grunge. That's the legend. That's the cliche. And I personally have somehow devoted a truly alarming percentage of the last five years

• 7:10Speaker 05

  of my life to trying to figure out how true or untrue that legend is. Did Nirvana kill hair metal and power ballad pompousness and all non-grunge hard rock? Hey, for starters, let's leave The Cult out of it. Yeah, that is tremendously rude to fantastic English Goth adjacent grandiose rock and roll band The Cult, whose many rad and tasty radio singles I have enjoyed tremendously throughout my life. She Sells Sanctuary is probably still the best one, right? Sure it is.

• 7:53Speaker 05

  Phenomenal guitar riff dude.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  She Sells Sanctuary, an all time classic from The Cult's 1985 album, Love. Look, The Cult have the misfortune of also releasing a hard rock album on September 24th, 1991. And okay, no, The Cult album ceremony is not as successful commercially or sociologically as Nevermind or Blood Sugar Sex Magic. But how's about we leave The Cult out of this? Rude. Let's start over. When I went to bed on Monday, September 23rd, 1991, these guys were supremely cool.

• 8:50Speaker 05

  Def Leppard. Dude, I love Def Leppard so much as a non-sophisticated pre-teen. I also love Poison and Motley Crue and Warrant and Cinderella and Bon Jovi and so forth, but I loved Def Leppard more and I loved Pour Some Sugar On Me the most. Despite the fact that I did not understand Pour Some Sugar On Me lyrically or contextually. Is it obnoxious to play the pre-chorus but not the chorus to the 1987 all-time Def Leppard classic Pour Some Sugar On Me? I do believe that not playing the chorus would be obnoxious.

• 9:42Speaker 05

  What does that mean? Pour Some Sugar On Me? I wondered as a nine-year-old. What, like dump a snow cone on his head? But then on a Tuesday morning Nirvana's Nevermind comes out and grunge kills hair metal and Def Leppard ain't cool anymore. Such was my perception. I remember so clearly buying the next Def Leppard album on cassette. I bought the 1992 Def Leppard album Adrenalize on cassette. And Nirvana's Nevermind has been out for like half a year now and it's a number one album now. And MTV, the network that bombarded me with the Pour Some Sugar On Me video like 200 billion times.

• 10:23Speaker 05

  MTV is now wall-to-wall Nirvana and Pearl Jam and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And I remember feeling sheepish about listening to Def Leppard in 1992, like it was contraband, like I was risking my life by being so criminally uncool. Like Kurt Cobain was personally gonna jump out of a bush and kick me in the nuts for listening to a song called Let's Get Rocked.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  Oh, Leave Me Alone. Adrenalize is a great album, or at least "Let's Get Rocked" is a great song. I don't recall much else about this record, to be honest with you. Other than the rad, cheesy, extra, extra grandiose power ballad "Have You Ever Needed Someone So Bad", I don't recall anything else about this particular Def Leppard record. I just looked. The third track on Adrenalize is called "Make Love Like A Man". No, thank you. Whatever Def Leppard thinks making love like a man entails, I don't want to hear about it. Don't get involved. And maybe that was the problem with Def Leppard in 1992.

• 11:44Speaker 05

  The somewhat retrograde hornball lyrical vibe. All those salacious behind-the-music stories like the harem of groupies, apparently chilling out beneath Def Leppard's fancy revolving arena stage. What's wrong with being sexist? Not very enlightened, Def Leppard, gender politics-wise. Kathleen Hannah is not inadvertently suggesting any song titles to Def Leppard. It was a different time.

• 12:23Speaker 05

  Oh my god. Uh, yeah, let's go ahead and induct "Suppose a rocks" out of the question into the John Cougar Mellencamp sucking-on-a-chili-dog-outside-the-Tasty-Freeze-Hall-of-Fame of grody phrases in pop songs that no human being has ever uttered in real life, ever. Nobody roaming this earth at any point has ever said the words "suppose a rocks" out of the question in that order IRL. Nirvana made Def Leppard uncool. That sounds truer. That still sounds rude, but less rude. Can we get even truer and less ruder? I do believe we can. Nirvana made "Winger" uncool.

• 13:21Speaker 05

  It was a different time. I've thought about it. I thought about it for like 15 seconds, but I'm afraid that there is no other logical interpretation of the 1988 Winger song 17, other than that one. Uh, my favorite YouTube comment on the video for 17, it just says, she's only 42 now. And that comment was from 11 years ago. Oof. That shit woke me right up. Nirvana and Pearl Jam and so forth made jovial horn dog pop metal tributes to underage girls uncool. Can I say that? That feels truest and least rudest to me. Lyrically, spiritually and philosophically, grunge, at least theoretically occupied a

• 14:06Speaker 05

  more enlightened plane of existence. Four adverbs and 15 words. There is no grunge equivalent to Warrant's cherry pie. I bet there is though. I bet there's a grunge cherry pie if I think about it for more than 15 seconds, but I don't want to think about that. So I'm not gonna. Hey, look over there.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  This is not the grunge cherry pie, just to clarify. That was just my transition. We've been here before, you and I, presuming that you've listened to all 134 previous episodes of this podcast, but we've been here before and now we're here again. Candlebox, far behind, 1993. I turned 15 years old in 1993 and I spend hours upon hours, seemingly every night and seemingly all weekend, every weekend, driving around with my buddy Todd, pseudonym, my good friend Todd. Todd drives and I ride shotgun in Todd's Saturn and we drive around suburban Ohio. We drive from one Denny's to the other Denny's.

• 15:24Speaker 05

  And back in Todd's Gunmetal Grey Saturn, beneath the gunmetal grey suburban Ohio skies, thinking our glum gunmetal grey thoughts whilst listening to Todd's CDs. I can tell you every CD Todd owned right now from memory. Nine Inch Nails, Tool, Marilyn Manson, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, The Crow soundtrack, Stone Temple Pilots, Gravity Kills, Stabbing Westward, Lords of Acid, et cetera. There were exactly two states of being, two headspaces, two existential scenarios in Todd's Saturn. Either Todd and I and maybe another dude or two, either it's a bunch of dudes driving around and we're all listening

• 16:04Speaker 05

  to Todd's CDs and thinking about girls, or we are driving around with some IRL girl sitting behind us in the backseat and we're listening to Candlebox.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  Yes, Far Behind by Candlebox is the most feminine, or at least the least scary to girls, cool rock music Todd and I can conceive of in 1993. And honestly, yeah, I stand by that. Candlebox are from Seattle. Candlebox are a grunge band from Seattle who released their debut album called Candlebox in 1993. But this tasty and rad guitar solo from Candlebox lead guitarist Peter Quinn has prominent pompous hair metal overtones. No? Something about that ascending, that little gee whiz laser gun riff somehow releases a cloud of hairspray, does it not?

• 17:30Speaker 05

  And I cannot convey to you how hopelessly romantic, how passionate this suspiciously preapic sounding guitar solo sounded to me as a 15-year-old in 1993. I will pronounce that word however I want and it will change without warning. To my undeveloped mind, the far behind guitar solo somehow fused the possibly felonious knucklehead hornball id of hair metal with the grouchy, wallowing, romanticized, superego malaise of grunge. The little chunky ascending palm muted action that's about to happen right here, the first two seconds of rad guitar action you're about to hear always sounded to me

• 18:14Speaker 05

  like pure hair metal, pure winger, pure suppose a rocks out of the question lewd badassness. Like everything cool and everything uncool spectacularly colliding in midair and all I wanted was a young lady to smooch with as we watched the explosion bloom against the sunset. I'm doing it again.

• 18:55Speaker 05

  And so, but it turns out that Candlebox ain't cool at all.

• 19:00Speaker 05

  Huh. Candlebox ain't cool. I had no idea. At 15, I had no idea that Candlebox were often critically derided. Robert Criscow, dean of American rock critics, he called Candlebox, quote, "post-grunge scene suckers", end quote. And all the other cool grunge bands in Seattle thought Candlebox were bandwagon ass posers. In the fantastic book, Everybody Loves Our Town: An Oral History of Grunge, written by Mark Yarm, came out in 2011. There's a whole chapter in this book about how Candlebox came along just a couple of years after Pearl Jam and Nirvana broke and grunge got huge. Then Candlebox got signed to Madonna's record label.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  And Candlebox sold four million copies of their self-titled 1993 debut album. And a lot of people in Seattle talked shit about Candlebox constantly. This chapter made me weirdly very sad. In the book, Candlebox frontman Kevin Martin says, quote, "We'd been a band for a year and a half, and some people felt that wasn't long enough, which never made sense to me. The biggest detractors, the young bands that weren't successful. Not Alice in Chains or Soundgarden. None of those guys were talking shit about us. It was Sweetwater, Green Apple Quickstep, Eazy, Satchel. They felt like we didn't really deserve it.

• 20:27Speaker 05

  We took a lot of shit in the city and nobody ever fucking stood up for us." End quote. In the event you've never heard of the Seattle grunge bands Sweetwater, Green Apple Quickstep, Eazy, or Satchel, well, none of them bands wrote anything half as catchy as the Candlebox song, "You."

• 21:01Speaker 05

  And we'd rock this song too in Todd's Saturn with the girls in the back, but ill-advisedly, all the dudes in the Saturn, we would yell, "Fuck you," along with Candlebox frontman Kevin Martin during this part, and we'd scare the girls. This phrase was not at all in vogue at the time, but I fear that we gave the girls the ick. You could just tell. Mistakes were made.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  Uncool. Yelling "fuck you" along with Candlebox in a crowded Saturn with visibly alarmed girls sitting in it is uncool, but Candlebox themselves are even more uncool, apparently. And I struggled with this notion as a teenager. My understanding was that Nirvana had annihilated all the uncool rock bands, that any rock bands with even a whiff of hair metal bonification had ceased to exist, or at least all those bands had ceased to be audible, and therefore, all remaining audible rock bands were cool now. That was my understanding. I simply could not process the idea of an uncool grunge band.

• 22:18Speaker 05

  Google Docs is very upset about my use of the word "bonification," by the way. Spellcheck keeps flagging "bonification" no matter how many times I hit the little X, right? Like, nah, it's cool. Google Docs is big mad about this. There are no uncool grunge bands in the enlightened opinion of teenage me. There are only grunge bands that are slightly less cool.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  Collective Soul. A slightly less cool, but still very cool, grunge band from Atlanta. Collective Soul are named after a phrase from the Ayn Rand book, "The Fountainhead." No comment. From their 1993 debut album, "Hints, Allegations, and Things Left Unsaid," that song is called "Shine." These fellas, Collective Soul, aren't critically beloved, per se. Robert Criscow, dean of American rock critics, called them, quote, "tuneful blandos," end quote.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  That's why he's the best. Nonetheless, I thought they were cool because all grunge bands are cool.

• 23:50Speaker 05

  Sponge. A slightly less cool but still very cool grunge band from Detroit. Sponge are named after a sponge from their 1994 debut album, Rotting Pinata. This song is called Plowed. Pretty great album, Rotting Pinata, but the true sponge heads know that their next album, 1996's Waxecstatic, is even better. The sponge song Waxecstatic, parentheses, to sell Angelina, is like sonic youth for teenagers who find lady bass players too intimidating. Just speaking hypothetically.

• 24:35Speaker 05

  I thought Sponge were very cool myself and not intimidating at all. Grunge as an overbroad musical category is already getting even more overbroad by 1994. Anything with crunchy, snarling, grouchy, ultra distorted, macho, but like enlightened macho guitars counts as grunge, in my humble opinion. How less cool can a grunge band get and still be cool? Let's find out.

• 25:13Speaker 05

  Oh, hell yes. It's 7 Merry 3, a slightly less cool than Sponge but still very cool grunge band from Williamsburg, Virginia. 7 Merry 3 are named after the call sign of one of the motorcycle cops in the late 70s, early 80s cop show Chips. Not Eric Estrada, the other guy. You can name your band after anything. From their 1995 album, American Standard. That's good. That song was called Cumbersome. Are 7 Merry 3 grunge?

• 25:43Speaker 05

  We've gotten overbroad of the point of meaninglessness. Also, these fellas have a remarkable psychic connection to hair metal. Perchance, are you familiar with the Seven Merry Three song, "Water's Edge"?

• 26:10Speaker 05

  I had to get that "I tell you, man" in there. "Water's Edge", also from the American Standard album, is a stormy murder ballad in which our meek but remarkably growly narrator witnesses a terrible crime but is powerless to do anything about it. You know who else has got a song like that? The Cherry Pie guys, that's who.

• 26:43Speaker 05

  From their 1990 album Cherry Pie, that is "Warrant", with a stormy murder ballad about a meek but remarkably yelpy narrator who witnesses a terrible crime but is powerless to do anything about it. And this song is called "Uncle Tom's Cabin", or, as I think of it, this song is called parentheses, "I can't fucking believe" they called this song, close parentheses, "Uncle Tom's Cabin", you telling me ain't nobody in "Warrant" had a library card? I will never get over this for as long as I live. Warren and Seven Merry Three ain't as far apart, musically or spiritually, as they appear. Genre is an illusion. Coolness is an illusion.

• 27:27Speaker 05

  And already by 1995, by the time Seven Merry Three blow up, grunge or even post-grunge will no longer suffice as a way to describe anything. We are building towards something new, or something quite old that feels new, something huge and terrible, and nonetheless somehow wonderful. But to get there, you gotta go through just a few more growly guys first. Are you gonna be ready to go, "Ohhh", when this guy goes, "Ohhh"? You better be ready.

• 28:13Speaker 05

  Oh, super hell yes. It's Days of the New from Louisville, Kentucky, with their 1997 breakout hit, Touch, Peel and Stand. That's Touch, Peel and Stand. No Oxford comma. Oh. There is a severe, snarly grunge energy here, for sure. A lot of Alice in Chains happening. But Days of the New are somehow both progressing and regressing as rock and roll goes. There's a distinctly late 80s knucklehead energy creeping into the mix. The line between what Nirvana killed and what Nirvana wrought, the line between cool and uncool is getting, what's the word I'm looking for? Ah, blurry.

• 29:11Speaker 05

  Puddle of Mud. Two D's in both puddle and mud from their 2001 major label debut album, Come Clean. That song is called Blurry and I Love It. Great song. Tone sincere. I was driving with my 13 and 11-year-old sons the other day, and I was listening to our rad, super macho, active rock radio station here in Columbus, Ohio, 99.7 The Blitz. And they played another Puddle of Mud song off that Come Clean album, and I could not decide whether or not to turn it off. I was paralyzed. I was like, this is a pretty good song, but it's a pretty uncouth. I turned it off before it hit the chorus, and it was the right call, like, parentally, and I still kind of regret it.

• 30:08Speaker 05

  This song is called "She Hates Me." That's the radio edit. La, la, la, la. What do we call this sort of rock and roll? Uncomplicated, uncouth, unruly, unapologetic, unafraid to slather the most knuckleheaded possible sentiments in the most radio-friendly gloss imaginable. Hair metal, no. Grunge, no. Post-grunge, no. Alternative rock, nah. You know what we ought to call this? You know what people called this? Butt-rock. I think that's worth a bunch more la-la-las.

• 30:57Speaker 05

  Why does the puddle of mud guy yell "trust" a bunch of times during this song? Butt-rock. Two Ts. Butt-rock. Yeah, I saw this article in the Houston Press, the great alt-weekly newspaper Houston Press, and it tried to argue that Butt-rock, that name, is a reference to 90s radio stations that proudly advertised that they played "nothing but rock." I think it was the Houston Press quoting urban dictionary.com, actually. And "we played nothing but rock." That's a very funny, that's a very clever explanation for where the name Butt-rock came from. But no, obviously no. Cleverness has no place in this universe. Don't overthink it.

• 31:42Speaker 05

  It's called Butt-rock because that's what it sounds like. Not a pejorative, even. It's just a fact. Butt, period, rock, period. This term, Butt-rock, has been around for decades already. You can find it. It's tangential to 70s, super-radio-friendly rock of the Foreigner, or Journey, or even AC/DC persuasion. It's tangential to glam rock. It's tangential to 80s hair metal, even. However, all caps now, Butt-rock flourishes, starting in the mid-90s. In the post-grunge vacuum, offensively simple lyrics, offensively simple riffs,

• 32:22Speaker 05

  shinier than thou guitars, great big dumb undeniable hooks, copious gratuitous radio play, growling and/or bellowing, triumphantly unenlightened lyrical sentiments, Nirvana without the angst, Pearl Jam without the pesky morality, testosterone, bonification, and uncoolness so absolute and all-powerful, it can heal the sick and raise the dead. It is 2001, it is time for a new world order. I meant to mention Creed somewhere on the way here, but I forgot it, it's too late. All rise for the Butt Rock National Anthem of Canada. Ladies and gentlemen, but especially gentlemen,

• 33:06Speaker 05

  let's get rocked.

• 33:18Speaker 05

  My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 15th episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, Cole and the 2000s. And this week, we are discussing "How You Remind Me" by the disreputable and absolutely massive Canadian rock band Nickelback. From their 2001 album, Silver Side Up, "Never Made It As A Wise Man," I love it. I do. Clearly, I never made it as a wise man either.

• 33:56Speaker 05

  "I'm sick of sight without a sense of feeling." That is an intriguing phrase to me. I do not ordinarily turn to Nickelback for intrigue, but that only makes me more intrigued when Nickelback intrigues me. If I don't do an ad break in the next 15 seconds, I'm gonna be shot. Hit the deck.

• 34:17Speaker 04

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• 34:40Speaker 06

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• 34:47Speaker 06

  So you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are, including these places.

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  Make this your most rewarding season ever with FanDuel. Age and location restrictions apply. Product availability varies by market. See FanDuel.com for eligibility. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

• 35:12Speaker 05

  Oh, I could just sense that you needed to hear someone else's voice for 30 seconds. You're welcome. Nickelback. Right, I know. Real quick, though, I need to tell you two important facts about my friend Todd, the guy driving the Saturn, the guy I spent 30% of my high school years with, driving around, the Nine Inch Nails, Tool, Marilyn Manson, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Crow, Soundtrack, Candlebox guy. Two important facts about my buddy Todd. Fact number one, eventually he stole my girlfriend. It's fine. It's fine. Of course, it's fine. Whatever. I'm over it. It's no big deal. It's fine. Sure. Get a load of the riz on Todd. You know, fact number two, and I do struggle to reconcile

• 35:55Speaker 05

  this with fact number one, but fact number two, Todd would occasionally play Def Leppard. He'd play the 1987 Def Leppard album Hysteria in the Saturn, but Todd's favorite song on Hysteria was not "Pour Some Sugar On Me." Todd preferred a little tune called "Love Bites." The extra, extra grandiose cheeseball powerball to "Love Bites," and Todd would sing along loudly, too loudly. Not a classically beautiful voice, Todd's, and Todd would change the words. Todd would change the words to "Love Bites," so it became a song about his

• 36:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yes, I'm bleeping that word out now. Arbitrary decision, inexplicable. Those of you familiar with this program may recall that I personally said the word

• 36:51Speaker 05

  like a billion times in the first 15 minutes of the Mr. Brightside episode. Very much unbleeped, entirely unnecessary. My mother was super pissed, but now suddenly I'm getting all coy and professional. Huh? Curious. What is the point of trying to clean up my act now? Oh, we're bleeping out that now too, eh? Why bother? It is far too late. Nobody associated with this podcast will see heaven. Here, now, and I'm sorry, but I wouldn't do this unless it was absolutely necessary. But here now are Todd's alternate lyrics to Love Bites by Def Leppard.

• 37:37Speaker 05

  My so big.

• 37:42Speaker 05

  It hangs right down to my knees.

• 37:56Speaker 05

  My so large. I trip on it when I walk.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  My

• 38:17Speaker 05

  so big. All the women scream.

• 38:33Speaker 05

  And then Todd stole my girlfriend. Unbelievable. It's fine. It's fine, but it is unbelievable. And that is how I became the man I am today. Nickelback formed in the mid 90s in Hannah, Alberta, Canada. A quintessential sleepy little farm town. As guitarist Ryan Peak describes it. Hannah's got a population of 3,000 or so, including three other guys named Chad Kroeger, vocals and guitar. Chad's older half brother, Mike Kroeger, bass. And their cousin, Brandon Kroeger, drums for now. A lot of drummers in this band. Don't worry too much about the drummers. They start as a cover band called Village Idiot, playing Metallica, Led Zeppelin, that sort of thing. They also play a lot of the tragically hip.

• 39:19Speaker 05

  It's Canada. In a widely reported origin story that I personally do not believe. Guitarist Ryan Peak is working at Starbucks. And a coffee costs a dollar forty-five Canadian. And so a customer would pay him a buck fifty Canadian. And Ryan would say, here's your Nickelback. And so Village Idiot changed their name to Nickelback. Yeah, sure. That sounds super made up, dude. But they tell that story in a bunch of interviews. And it also appears in Nickelback's online bio for their star on the Canadian Walk of Fame. So, okay. Nickelback debut in 1996 with a self-released EP that they record in Vancouver and call Hesher.

• 40:03Speaker 05

  They don't sound much like the tragically hip at all.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  And this song is called Where? Question mark. And here is Chad Kroeger. Nickelback frontman, primary songwriter, focal point, benevolent overlord, ex-husband of Avril Lavigne, boy, that was weird. And future target of much derision. I hear the phrase butt rock and this man's face just shimmers into my vision. Not a pejorative, just a fact. Chad grows up as somewhat of a fast-talking problem child. Chad's own mother quoted in the 2023 documentary Hate to Love: Colin Nickelback. She says, quote, "Oh Chad, he was always on his way to it or from it," end quote.

• 41:01Speaker 05

  But Chad has a tremendously loud and strikingly raw singing voice with a serrated edge reminiscent of Kurt Cobain, but not, you know, too reminiscent. And Chad Kroeger has ambition, not necessarily ambition in the sonic, experimental, I want to redefine rock and roll in my own image sense. Chad is ambitious in the, "I want my band to get played on the radio more than any other rock band in world history" sense. Nickelback are a hard rock band. Meat and potatoes, no bullshit, no pretension, no prog rock wonkery, no DJ, no messianic

• 41:42Speaker 05

  nonsense, no particular lyrical or spiritual agenda, unless you consider chicks, am I right, to be a spiritual agenda? And no tights or mascara, but you'll still dig these guys if Motley Crue and Poison and other tights and mascara type dudes used to be your thing, or better yet, still are your thing. Mainstream is not a pejorative. Radio-friendly is not a pejorative. Middle of the road is not a pejorative. The Hesher EP is only streaming on YouTube. And a used CD copy will run you about $600 American on Discogs.com. Chad Kroeger, talking to the Canadian website Jam in 2000, describes Hesher by saying, quote,

• 42:26Speaker 05

  "We had no expectations and no experience and no idea what to do with these songs." He also says, "I'm trying to bury that album as fast as I can," end quote. And indeed, Chad Kroeger sings like a man already dreaming of the albums he'll make later that'll bury this one.

• 42:58Speaker 05

  Later in 1996, Nickelback released their first full-length album called Curb. And the band will allow this one to remain on Spotify and generally acknowledge its existence. But that does not mean that everyone loves it immediately. So this documentary called Hate to Love: Nickelback, directed by Lee Brooks from 2023. It's on Netflix. And per the title, the thesis of Hate to Love: Nickelback is that everyone loves to hate Nickelback. Everyone talks shit about Nickelback. Other rock bands talk shit. Critics talk shit. The internet talks shit. Lots of rude Nickelback memes that the members of Nickelback do not appreciate.

• 43:41Speaker 05

  Chad Kroeger is especially sensitive about the memes. Like a picture of Boromir from Lord of the Rings with the giant caption, "One does not simply like Nickelback." That's good shit. That's a solid meme. Right away in this movie, somebody in voiceover says that Nickelback were a part of cancel culture before we had a name for it, which no, no, that's not a thing. And Nickelback are not part of the thing. That's not a thing. My favorite Letterboxd review of the Nickelback movie, it just says, quote, "The shit I watched to get laid is obscene." End quote. Three stars. So are Nickelback the uncoolest band ever? Possibly.

• 44:23Speaker 05

  Are Nickelback the single biggest uncool band of all time? Yes. But what this very earnest and workmanlike and meat and potatoes documentary would like to convey to you is that Nickelback were uncool way before they got big. And they worked very, very, very, very, very hard to get big. They incessantly toured in Canada, a country that is A, very large, B, very cold, and C, not filled with very many people relative to its largeness. To underscore Nickelback's uncoolness, the coolest person in this movie by an order of magnitude is Nickelback's lawyer. Who is sitting at his desk, wearing mirrored sunglasses.

• 45:08Speaker 05

  He got the long hair. He looks like he just spent the night in his car. He looks like Colt, the villainous sniper guy from season four of Justified. That's a niche reference and I don't care. Nickelback's lawyer's desk is super messy and it has one of those long, dangerous nails that you see on the counter of like delis and Chinese restaurants and whatnot, where they can impale your order or your receipt. And like, what legal documents can be appropriately organized in this fashion? Nickelback's lawyer talks about how hard the band worked at recording and touring and hustling their albums to record stores and radio stations. And he says, quote, "Everybody pulled together as a team and sort of moved the ball down the field.

• 45:53Speaker 05

  So to those of you who see this band as some big corporate sellout, um, fuck you." End quote. Not bleeping that anymore. If I ever get sued, I'm hiring Nickelback's lawyer. This song is called "Fly" and it's fine, but I'd probably like it more if their lawyer sang it.

• 46:23Speaker 05

  But see, "Fly" gets a little radio play in Canada because Canada's got that thing where Canadian radio stations, by decree of the Canadian Radio, Television and Telecommunications Commission, better known and loved as the CRTC, 35% of the music on most Canadian radio stations has to be from Canadian artists. And there's a 2000 interview on the website antimusic.com with Chad Kroeger, where he talks about how lesser-known independent bands should send their music out to Canadian radio in the first quarter of the year. Because all the big bands will release new music in the third or fourth quarter of the year for the Christmas rush and so forth.

• 47:02Speaker 05

  So in the first quarter, Canadian DJs are more desperate for new Canadian material. And a rock star frontman talking about Q1 versus Q4.

• 47:14Speaker 05

  A CEO or something isn't very cool, but Chad don't give a shit because quote, "Radio gets you everything. You get played on the radio and instantly a club owner knows he can sell beer because beer and the music industry are extremely intertwined. If you can put asses in the seats and beers in their hands, you get to do that because you're on the radio." End quote. This is a song off the Curb record called "Just For" that didn't get played on the radio so much, but it's still my favorite. And if I heard it live, I would definitely buy a beer and then throw it at a passing car.

• 48:06Speaker 05

  They re-record that song later for the Silver Side Up album and it still kicks ass. All right, Nickelback get signed to Roadrunner Records, a metal label, a metal label best known for signing Typo Negative, Coal Chamber, Sepultura, Slipknot, bands of that nature. By comparison, Nickelback are way less metal and everyone gives them shit about that as well, but Nickelback make their label way more money, but not yet. We're still grinding. We're still uncool, but not big. In 1998, Nickelback put out an album called "The State" and we're closer melodically, thematically, architecturally. The double helix of Chad

• 48:47Speaker 05

  Krogers here, the crooner and the screamer, the CEO and the rock star, the myth and the meme. This song is called "Leader of Men" and Chad is one, whether he'll admit that or not.

• 49:13Speaker 05

  Did I mention that according to a 2000 interview in Billboard, Chad wrote this song under the influence of magic mushrooms? And quote, "A lot of lines in the song are about what you're going through while you're zooming," end quote. That explains a lot, actually.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  I was struggling to interpret that line about how it's so hard to swallow until I found out about the mushrooms thing. Okay, look, early Nickelback, pre-superstardom Nickelback, is not at all terrible, but nor is it especially revelatory. What you hear on these first few records is a young, hungry, and thirsty rock band that's getting better at songwriting, but getting even better at hustling, at grinding, at strategizing. When these dudes blow up, it's gonna seem like it happened out of nowhere. But often, where butt-rock is concerned, the more sudden it seems, the less sudden it actually was. Enjoy your anonymity for the next 60 seconds or so, fellas.

• 50:25Speaker 05

  I will say that when I first listened to this record, The State, I was still recovering from my exposure to the winger song 17, and I got to this Nickelback song called "Old Enough," and I went, "Uh-oh."

• 50:48Speaker 05

  Nah, I do believe this song is about Chad moving to Vancouver with a young lady, but she's not that young. She's like 21. She's old enough. That's a relief. The grody Nickelback songs will come later. "Old Enough" did appear on the soundtrack to the scary movie Book of Shadows: Blair Witch 2 in 2000, so that's nice. The State still flops. Nickelback are concerned that Roadrunner is gonna drop the band, but Roadrunner doesn't. And so then Chad Kroeger does what Chad Kroeger does best. Which is keep grinding and write another song. And he takes that song to his guitarist, Ryan Peak's house. And Ryan Peak's wife hears the song and yells, that's a hit. And so Chad convenes the rest of the band in a remarkably unglamorous and Spartan and dingy

• 51:34Speaker 05

  and office complex type rehearsal space. And he plays the song for them. And the unglamorousness of this scene, as it appears in mesmerizing archival footage in this hate to love, Colin Nickelback movie. Well, the unglamorousness, the uncoolness is pure Nickelback. And the unglamorous uncoolness, in fact, is a crucial part of what's about to make Nickelback huge.

• 52:17Speaker 05

  How You Remind Me is a perfect song. It is immaculately constructed. If you don't believe me, then just go listen to the first several Nickelback albums, which are full of songs with the exact same elements. The crunchy guitars, the stiff in multiple senses, hard rock swagger, the basic but alluringly primal melodies, the medium soulful growl of our boy Chad Kroeger. All those same elements are present, but the songs just aren't quite as immaculately constructed. I believe it was Ed Sheeran, who said something in his own Rockstar documentary about how songwriting is like turning on a tap, a water tap, like an outdoor faucet.

• 53:01Speaker 05

  And at first, the water comes out dirty and gross. And in that same way, as an aspiring songwriter, you start out writing songs and those songs suck for a while, or at least the first songs you write aren't anywhere near as good as the songs you will write. And you just gotta let all the dirty gross water run its course and keep writing and writing and writing until suddenly the water is crystal clear and refreshing and delicious.

• 53:42Speaker 05

  Just an immaculately structured tower of meat and potatoes erected before our eyes and ears as "How You Remind Me" ramps up. Thirty or forty years of unabashed radio rock majesty culminating in this moment. The spectacular dynamics, the slow build, the maximum Canadianness. I had never quite focused on the way Chad Kroeger sings the word "sorry." Sorry, sorry, but he sings the word "sorry" exactly the way you want him to.

• 54:29Speaker 05

  All right, let's chop up the rhythm just a little bit here. Give all those air guitarists and air drummers a little signature "burp burp, burp burp" action. Nickelback's actual drummer is now Ryan Vicdall. Brandon Kroeger split and then Mitch Gwenden was their drummer for a while, but now it's Ryan. And Ryan won't be around forever either. Don't worry about the drummer. I bet this song kills at karaoke, too. And it's one of those deals where everyone laughs at the song choice, like, "Ha ha, Nickelback, that's hilarious. Ha ha, we're being cool and ironic." But then, within forty-five seconds, everyone is unironically super into it.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  "I've been wrong, I've been down, been to the bottom of every bottle." Pretty great lines. Clear, vivid, relatable, memorable, scream-alongable. But it is no insult to Chad Kroeger. I intend, rather, to pay Chad Kroeger a tremendous compliment when I tell you that the most important lyrics he will ever write are "yeah, yeah, yeah."

• 56:01Speaker 05

  And when the corny, endearing Nickelback documentary hits the corny but endearing part in every rock band documentary, when it goes, "And then they got super famous", these three words are screaming in my head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And suddenly, we are pumping our fists and flipping on the cigarette lighters nobody carries anymore and having more fun than anybody's ever had in the history of the world. The expert dynamics even here, too, the mellow "No, no" as counterweight. This is the very moment when 2001's super mainstream rock truly solidifies, truly self-actualizes, truly asserts its own identity.

• 56:45Speaker 05

  And "Butt Rock's" majestic presence sounds an awful lot like "Butt Rock's" very recent and not-so-recent past. And Nickelback have not so much reinvented the wheel as put ultra-shiny new 20-inch rims on the wheel, and that's the wrong analogy, but you get me. Whole song's basically the same four chords, by the way. Burn, burn, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's Butt Rock to its very core. "How You Remind Me" is Nickelback's first and only number-one hit on the Billboard Hot 100, four weeks at number one. Our friend Tom Bryan, the critic and author and genius who writes the number ones column for Stereogum, Tom did a column on "How You Remind Me",

• 57:27Speaker 05

  and Tom says, quote, "Here's one important thing about Nickelback: they are the last hard rock band, arguably even the last rock band, full stop, to top the Billboard Hot 100," end quote. I am not in an immediate position to dispute that claim. This song came out 24 years ago. This song has 1.2 billion Spotify plays and counting. If "How You Remind Me" is indeed the last number-one rock song of all time, well, that makes total sense whether you love Nickelback or hate 'em. Either these chuckleheads killed rock and roll forever, or they perfected it.

• 58:21Speaker 05

  Oof, sorry to throw you in the deep end there, but I do gotta mention that Nickelback also do their part to reintroduce a somewhat retrograde hornball lyrical vibe to mainstream rock radio. And Nickelback have company in this pursuit as fans of fellow butt-rock greats like Buck Cherry and Hynder will attest, but there is a specific flavor to Nickelback's hornballness. No, this song is called "Figure You Out", from Nickelback's next album, "The Long Road", released in 2003. And at least I'm not playing you the part where Chad likes the white stains on her dress, though my just saying that is arguably worse. Sorry, my bad, but it's gonna get slightly worse before it gets better, because now

• 59:04Speaker 05

  I need to remind you that in 2008, Nickelback put out an album called "Dark Horse", and they kick it off with a song called "Something In Your Mouth", I'm sure that's a metaphor for something.

• 59:29Speaker 05

  Of course, it's not a metaphor for anything. Butt-rock don't do no metaphors. Chad Kroeger, in that Nickelback documentary, he says, quote, "I'm not the first person to sing something a little risque in a song", end quote, and he leaves it at that. Chad also says, with regards to the whole uncoolness hatred thing, he says, quote, "I play Nickelback songs to Nickelback fans. They want to hear Nickelback songs, and I want to sing them, so I don't have to go out and try to win over someone who doesn't like my band. That sounds like some very strange form of torture, probably for both of us", end quote. Nickelback's best-selling album, 10 million copies sold in America,

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  this shit went diamond. Holy moly, their best-selling album came out in 2005 and is called "All The Right Reasons", and features the best song they ever did. Don't overthink it.

• 1:00:42Speaker 05

  This song is called "Photograph", and it's the second-best song called "Photograph" in rock and roll history, Def Leppard. And Chad's specific phrasing of the line, "What the hell is on Joey Zed?", always bothered me. But nonetheless, guess what's cool again? Extra, extra, extra grandiose cheeseball power ballads. That's what. The second-most-important lyrics Chad Kroeger will ever write? He's compressed his style even further. It's just two words this time. "Goodbye, goodbye."

• 1:01:32Speaker 05

  "It's hard to say it, time to say it. Goodbye, goodbye." I don't care much for nostalgia myself, but I find those lines genuinely moving in a fist-pumping, cigarette-lighter-waving sort of way. "Photograph" peaks at number two on the Billboard Hot 100, beaten out only by "Gold Digger", by Kanye West. I can't quite articulate why I find that so funny, but I do. Also, Daniel Adair is Nickelback's drummer now, and apparently forever, and he's cool. But don't worry too much about the drummers. But no, it's another giant-hit song on this "All the Right Reasons" record that really did my head in. It's like I woke up one day and God had flipped the switch from uncool back to cool.

• 1:02:35Speaker 05

  Rockstar, one word. I distinctly recall being so confused the first time I heard this song, the first time I heard these lyrics. The girls, the drugs, the houses, the cars, is this what we all really want? Is this what we really imagine rock stardom to entail? Didn't Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder vaporize all this? I thought this song was Nickelback doing like a clever Civil War reenactor parody of what rock stardom used to look like and sound like and feel like. All those old jovial horn dog cliches that Nirvana killed forever? Part of me has never stopped believing that myth, apparently. But if there's one thing

• 1:03:15Speaker 05

  Nickelback aren't, very much by design, it's clever. And so I find myself confronted with an existential question. Are jovial pop metal tributes to girls who fortunately aren't underage, but unfortunately do look cuter with something in their mouths, are these sorts of songs suddenly cool and popular again? Hmm. Are Nickelback the rebirth of uncool but hugely popular rock? Or are Nickelback proof that uncool but hugely popular rock never died in the first place?

• 1:04:08Speaker 05

  To me, in 2005, this was a vision of the past. My past specifically is a Def Leppard-loving, MTV obsessive, in the 80s hair metal era. But also, I thought this was rock and roll's past broadly. Such was my perception at the time. And evidently, I found this perception, this quaint idea that Nirvana made rock and roll cooler permanently, I found this whole worldview harder to shake than I thought. But Nickelback disabused me of these notions for good. Coolness is temporary. Bonification is forever.

• 1:04:48Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Breaking news out of the North Pole. Santa and his elves are swamped with requests for vehicle floor liners. And although elves are terrific toy makers, their little hammers and chisels don't come close to the laser measured fit of a WeatherTech floor liner, cargo liner, or truck bed impact liner. Even Santa uses them. Cookie crumbs, glitter, a reindeer hitching a ride home? He just hoses them off. Visit weatherTech.com for all your holiday shopping today. It's all Santa approved.

• 1:05:23Speaker 05

  We have waited far too long to speak once again with our dear friend, Leslie Grace Streeter, a columnist for The Baltimore Banner, and author of both the memoir Black Widow and her upcoming novel, Out on My Birthday, May 13th. It's called Family and Other Calamities. Preorder to that action right now. Leslie, we missed you terribly.

• 1:05:44Speaker 07

  Oh, my gosh, I was so jealous. I was like, why don't they call me?

• 1:05:49Speaker 05

  We were waiting for an important episode. And we found it. Leslie, you emailed me my favorite line of rock criticism in recent memory. You said, I quite liked Nickelback because they were not trying. Please tell me exactly what you mean by that.

• 1:06:08Speaker 07

  Well, you know, having been a connoisseur of the 90s, that so much of the 90s was about trying while trying to look like you weren't trying. Right? It was authenticity that passed the smell test. It was about being serious about art. And all these things have have periods or question marks or, you know, exclamation points, serious about my art all the time. And all of these guys, as we know, 30 years later, were cheating on the wives and banging on banging groupies and all this stuff. But the thing about Nickelback is that they were doing that and wanted you to know

• 1:06:52Speaker 07

  poison and these do and were that they were happy to do it. And they were not upset about it. They were not conflicted about the spoils to which their money and their fame and their renown got them stuff. And I love that because they weren't trying to pretend that there was some. Some existential height of, you know, happiness or like meaning and pretending you didn't want these things. And I loved that about them. Loved that for them.

• 1:07:31Speaker 05

  I guess we should clarify that we don't know for a fact that Nickelback were banging groupies, you know, even in their prime, but they, they sung, they, they wrote and sung and performed that lifestyle. And that alone, as you say, sets them very far apart, you know, from the super moral, super serious, super credible, you know, nineties rock stars. You were drawn immediately just to the honesty about the horn doggery, you know, and that we want to be rock stars of this band. That's what appealed to you.

• 1:08:04Speaker 07

  It appealed to me. And I got to tell you, speaking of Canadians with scratchy voices, I'm a Bryan Adams super fan.

• 1:08:11Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 1:08:12Speaker 07

  And I don't care if it's cool. I'm 53. I don't care if it's cool. Um, I love that scratchy soundtrack anthem belting voice, which Shaq Krueger obviously has, and we'll talk about Hero in a minute. But I love.

• 1:08:29Speaker 05

  Robin Hood, et cetera. Yeah.

• 1:08:30Speaker 07

  Oh, my God, I love that stuff. And I love that. It's just like, I'm a guy who has a talent and people like it and I'm going to do it. And I got a check. Where's your check? I have a check. Because everyone got checked. Having been.

• 1:08:43Speaker 05

  They did.

• 1:08:44Speaker 07

  A Counting Crows and R E M fan, all these people who are like, and Pearl Jam fan. I don't care about the check. You care about the check, Eddie Vedder, because the check keeps going. And, and I like, there was something refreshing to me about Nickelback being like, we love this. We're good at it. People like it. And it's okay that people admit to liking it. And they don't have to pretend that they're better than other people for liking or not liking it. And there was a, an earnestness, you and I, you and I've had this discussion on your podcast and on mine about the weird disconnect between earnestness

• 1:09:24Speaker 07

  and art and pretending that you cannot be earnest if you're going to be important. And that importance is subtext and importance is, and, and value in art, artistic value is in subtlety.

• 1:09:42Speaker 07

  And whatever. So we call

• 1:09:43Speaker 05

  Subversion, cynicism. Yeah.

• 1:09:46Speaker 07

  Cynicism. And we call things cheesy if they just go, you know what? Screwed. I liked it. Yeah. And I, I love Nickelback because of that. Yeah.

• 1:09:54Speaker 05

  Hero, I, I don't, I haven't talked enough about Hero because I think that was the first, is that, that's a Chad Kroeger solo song, right? That's not technically Nickelback. It's a Spider-Man.

• 1:10:05Speaker 07

  And first, once again, it's my Bryan Adamsery situation. That song was back. Remember, children, a time that you don't know, where soundtracks were sweeping, where I'm, my, I, my bridesmaids in 2010 walked down the aisle to the love theme from Santa's effing fire. Okay?

• 1:10:28Speaker 05

  That's credibility right there.

• 1:10:30Speaker 07

  You know what? I'm an idiot. I don't care. I walked down the aisle to my, my friend, Lewis Johnson, who's, you know, briefly a rock star, playing that, "All I wanna do is grow old with you" from The Wedding Singer. I mean,

• 1:10:43Speaker 05

  Wedding Singer, Adam Sandler. Yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 07

  Yes. My wedding song, my first dance was "It Might Be You" by Steven Bishop from Tootsie.

• 1:10:53Speaker 05

  Was this the theme or are these, it was an all soundtrack musical wedding? I've never heard of this and it's wonderful.

• 1:11:01Speaker 07

  Which is why no one has married me since, but I got that one.

• 1:11:08Speaker 07

  It is my husband's like, I died and she got her wedding and it's all good. But yeah, I got my stupid eighty wedding in 2010.

• 1:11:18Speaker 07

  He was like, he's looking through the sound, through the playlist. He's like, what? I'm like, deal with it. He's like, what's happening? I'm like, just give me, I'm eighty seven years old.

• 1:11:28Speaker 05

  This is my day. That's right.

• 1:11:30Speaker 07

  My day.

• 1:11:31Speaker 05

  So Hero, Hero evokes the golden age of movie soundtrack anthems for you.

• 1:11:38Speaker 07

  It's soaring and it's earnest and it has

• 1:11:43Speaker 07

  Has this, it's very tied in, just like everything I do, I do it for you, tied into a line from the, from the script from Marvel, who prints the thieves. This is about a hero who's conflicted, who's like, not sure he can do it like Spider-Man, like Peter Parker, man. But a hero can save us, I'm not gonna stand in the way. It's like, ah, you know, and his voice was perfect for that moment. It was perfect for that song because he's like, I'm gritty and I'm tired. I, it's like my favorite Marvel superhero of all time is Hawkeye. Because he's a middle aged dad who's tired, you can't hear, he's got cheering aids and he just wants to go fuck home.

• 1:12:23Speaker 05

  He's relatable.

• 1:12:25Speaker 07

  Hawkeye is the Chad Kroeger of Marvel.

• 1:12:28Speaker 05

  Okay, wow, that's, you did it. Chad Kroeger is the Hawkeye of rock and roll.

• 1:12:36Speaker 07

  He's just, he's just, he's there, right? And he's like, I might as well do it. I'm here and so let's, let's make it happen.

• 1:12:45Speaker 05

  He was there.

• 1:12:46Speaker 07

  Let's make it happen. I'm gonna flourish this shit.

• 1:12:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:12:50Speaker 07

  I got my, my arrows and my, my raspy voice, mixing metaphors, you know, I just, I, I like the utilitarian. And once again, it's not a twee, arty, over whatever thing. It's like, it's what, like, I love Green Day, cause Green Day was like those guys and other like, we're fifty and we love singing these songs. And I love that. My son's favorite band is Green Day.

• 1:13:18Speaker 05

  Okay, interesting, like American Idiot era or, uh, Dookie era?

• 1:13:24Speaker 07

  First, his godmother gave him Dookie and American Idiot on vinyl and a record player. And last summer, you know, she's great. We went to see Green Day, the opening of their tour at, uh, Nationals Park in DC is beginning of our vacation. I vacation, by the way, people, you don't know this, so being on the show actually got me a free pizza, cause we were on this vacation, we started. Yeah, I told you, went to New York and we went to Portland and we're in Portland and I ordered pizza, two pizzas, a vegan one for me and one for my kid. And the guy at the counter, what's my name? He goes, are you a writer? And I said, yes. And he said, you're on sixty. So I explain the nineties. Sometimes I go, yes.

• 1:14:07Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:14:08Speaker 07

  Here is a pizza and he gave me a pizza for free.

• 1:14:12Speaker 05

  That is a beautiful story. You deserve it. I would like a free pizza from this person as well, but, but yes, I'm glad you got it first.

• 1:14:20Speaker 07

  So everything is cyclical. Where am I going? And people will say like,

• 1:14:24Speaker 05

  Green Day. Yeah.

• 1:14:25Speaker 07

  Green Day. Yeah. So that they understand the assignment, as people say, they understand that who they are now.

• 1:14:32Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:14:33Speaker 07

  I don't know if you've seen the Nickelback documentary.

• 1:14:37Speaker 05

  I did. Yes.

• 1:14:39Speaker 07

  I loved it because it's just like, were these guys, yes, there were like changes in, in, in personnel and tragedy and whatever, but also we're just,

• 1:14:49Speaker 05

  They're just dudes.

• 1:14:51Speaker 07

  They're just dudes.

• 1:14:52Speaker 05

  They have wives. They have like wholesome family lives, except for Chad. And they're like, we won't even hang out with Chad. That's bad for our family lives. And it's like, okay. Convincingly normal chill dudes.

• 1:15:05Speaker 07

  And like this is, and they interviewed their parents. This is their parents and their brother and the people at the pizza place and just, you know, I just, I like them because it was just guys in a band who decided Depeche Mode was just guys in a band at some point. All of these people that later decided they were this other thing. And I love Depeche Mode. But Green Day was just dudes in a, you know, and so these are dudes in a band who remained dudes in a band for 30 years. And I like it.

• 1:15:35Speaker 05

  I never made the Depeche Mode connection, but I totally, I'll, I believe anything you say at this point. So you're, you're playing with house money after Hawkeye. Are you the sort of person, like the, the whole point of that documentary is everyone hates us and we're not cool. And like, we care a little bit, but basically we don't care. Are you the sort of person who reacts like almost a backlash? Like if something is, you're told something is not cool, you gravitate toward it? Do you care about critical opinion or like public, like meme opinion? Or do you go in the other direction instinctively and like something you're told you're not supposed to like?

• 1:16:11Speaker 07

  I think I sometimes err on the side of contrarian, but not on purpose. I think that there is, if you were told that the things you like are not cool, you tend to. Fine, I'll just be the utmost uncool person ever, but that's not really authentic either. So what I try to do in my life is be like, I like this thing. I like Bryan Adams. I like New Edition. I like all these things. And so, and there are some things I like, like, you know, Neil Finn. I love Credit House. I love, there are some things that love. Yes, some things critics love and some things critics don't, like Bryan Adams. And you just go, after a while, you become comfortable telling people to screw themselves.

• 1:16:54Speaker 07

  And because then you open yourself up and you can't make it about screw yourself, right? You have to make it about what do you like? Are you liking this ironic thing? You know, it's a whole yacht rock situation. It's like, we like it's because it's not.

• 1:17:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 07

  There are some people, I like that music because to me it was just like blue eyed soul. It was not whatever yacht rock was. It was just like white guys, they played on R and B stations. You could sing and I liked it because I liked it at its face value. I didn't have to create layers of irony to enjoy it through so people would enjoy it.

• 1:17:29Speaker 05

  That all came later, of course. Yeah, we sort of retrofitted a whole concept onto music that you didn't have to work very hard to like.

• 1:17:36Speaker 07

  No, you just, it was good or you didn't. And it's like, it's okay if you don't like it. But having to create a cooler than Zao situation through which you can enjoy it, like Rex Manning. Uh, you know, it's just Rex Manning reference.

• 1:17:52Speaker 05

  Good pull there. Yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 07

  Sometimes you just grow up and go, I can appreciate this thing. And certainly as a person who's written criticism for a while, you can appreciate things as they are. Like I don't like Rush as, as a artistic enterprise, not my thing. But I appreciate how long they were together and how I've seen them.

• 1:18:16Speaker 05

  I love that for them. Yeah, okay.

• 1:18:18Speaker 07

  I love that for them. I love that for their fans. I love that they were clearly enjoying. Being these three guys who played together for fifty years and loved each other. I loved all of it and I I loved that they had people, they didn't need me to love them or not.

• 1:18:39Speaker 05

  They would have loved you, I'm sure, but they didn't necessarily.

• 1:18:42Speaker 07

  I loved them and I I I don't like their music, but I enjoyed who they were because I could separate their music from the importance to other people and not go, this thing isn't important because I don't like it.

• 1:18:56Speaker 05

  Right, that's a undervalued skill.

• 1:18:59Speaker 07

  You know, as you know, my biggest problem with criticism is that it's the people who were established who then established the taste of the the time. And so if you were not that person. Yes, the gatekeepers. And so if you are a guy who's confused by how attractive Sarah McLachlan is, but you she's a chick and you like her music, which you can't reconcile it, you're weird about it and then she can't sell records. So like all of that. So the disconnect of the gatekeepers becomes the burden of the artist.

• 1:19:37Speaker 07

  And so if you're Nickelback, who once again are dudes playing music for chicks and dudes who like beer and sex and whatever. And I will say there's some depth, there's some real depth to some of their lyrics that nobody got because it was them.

• 1:19:56Speaker 05

  Okay, like what? What what jumps out to you?

• 1:19:59Speaker 07

  Okay, so rock star is and I it it rock star on its surface is, yeah, we just want to do whatever. But it it is also there's an ironicness to, you know, this is what this is about. You know that this is about, we all just want to be big, big rock stars and the whole like the hyperbole about a bathroom I could play baseball in. Everybody's got a drug dealer on speed dial. They're going to the height of the hair metal Motley Crue of it all and saying, this is what you all want and you know it and you know this is why you're here.

• 1:20:39Speaker 05

  Two thousand five. Right, right.

• 1:20:41Speaker 07

  You can admit it or not, but here we are. And I found that. Brilliant. Or like, how you remind me, um, which is, I think, so well-written, but people missed it because a dude had a perm.

• 1:20:55Speaker 05

  The perm does detracts from the critical acclaim. There's no denying a connection there. Yeah. Is that a perm? I'm not in a position to say. It is, it's very wavy. I'm going to defer to you entirely on how you would characterize Chad Kroeger's hair because I didn't really know. I don't have the vocabulary for this.

• 1:21:14Speaker 07

  It's blonde. It's obviously dyed. There's an effort that went into that hair. Because we weren't supposed to have effort, right? We weren't supposed to care.

• 1:21:27Speaker 05

  No, we weren't. Exactly. Yeah.

• 1:21:29Speaker 07

  And you have people like, um, oh my God, the Strokes. Who cared a lot while pretending they didn't care. And it just. Julian Casablanca's in his face, you know, um.

• 1:21:48Speaker 05

  I know, right? Yeah.

• 1:21:49Speaker 07

  You know what I'm saying? It was a beautiful face.

• 1:21:51Speaker 05

  I know exactly what you're saying.

• 1:21:52Speaker 07

  They cared very much at this, in the same time about, but they just could be cooler than thou. And pretend they didn't care. And Nickelback goes, we care. And they go, boo, don't care.

• 1:22:08Speaker 05

  Uh, how you remind me, how you remind me, you mentions, like, there's the line, right? Like, I've been to the bottom of every bottle. Like, do you hear the song primarily as about his relationship with alcohol? Like, I guess I took that line at face value, but the rest of the song is maybe about something else. But you think like, you know, overall, this is a song, at least in a large part, about drinking.

• 1:22:32Speaker 07

  Well, it's not, it's about what the drinking means. It's about the examination of a person who says, I'm looking at this relationship I have with this person I'm singing about. In totality. And I'm looking at where I've been and I'm looking at the things that I've been through and I'm looking at. How you remind me how I really am, who I really am, what I'm about. And I have to go back to the dark stuff too, because the dark stuff informs where I am now. Where I'm desperate for your attention, I'm desperate for your, your consideration. And so I'm telling you that I can't consider the heights if I don't consider the lows. And once again, it's a startling lyric in 2002, or whatever it was.

• 1:23:17Speaker 07

  It's a startling lyric. I think I told you, I had an editor at the time in York, Pennsylvania, who was like, cool dude, 40s-ish at the time. And he walked by me and he knows, he just wants to say something that only I and my cheese I'm gonna get. And he says, couldn't cut it as a blind man, never made as a blind man, couldn't cut it as a poor man stealing. Oh, and he walks away. I'm like.

• 1:23:43Speaker 05

  Good line. Good opening line. Call me Ishmael. Yes.

• 1:23:47Speaker 07

  Yes, and because it's about, like, I'm coming to you at the very ugly base of who I am. Rock bottom and you, in your truth, whether I want to or not, have exposed to me the thing that I am and the thing that I want to be. And to have the bottom of every bottle be a part of the chorus of a song that is played in early 2000s radio on pop radio, to me was very significant. Because I think people missed it, but it was like, it was a cutting over my chest and bleeding out.

• 1:24:28Speaker 07

  And you know, I love that shit. So, um, I was very struck, you know, I was struck by that because there is a... And because if anyone else had written that line, people would have said it was brilliant. If anyone else had written that and written this.

• 1:24:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:24:44Speaker 07

  If like, Dashboard Confessional had written that.

• 1:24:50Speaker 05

  Oh my God, I can hear that so clearly.

• 1:24:53Speaker 07

  You know, and Chris Carrabba is from, I've met him a couple of times. He's from Book Over Time, where I, I worked in Palm Beach County for a very long time. Talked to him a couple of times. Guy, but he wrote those kinds of songs, right? He wrote those like,

• 1:25:06Speaker 05

  He did.

• 1:25:07Speaker 07

  Cut my heart out, spilling it for you on the page songs. And I think that he's taken more seriously as a little acoustic dude on the guitar than Chad Kroeger plugged in with the perm going,

• 1:25:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, the perm, right. I was going to ask you if you ever attempted this song in your open mic night days? Or you heard anybody else do that? Cause I can hear that so clearly. That's sort of an extension of the dashboard confessional thing.

• 1:25:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, I have heard people do How You Remind Me, but I don't know if they, it's always a question of my, of my nights, right? Well, the, the difference between karaoke and art. Do you know what I mean? Like, are you interpreting it? Are you just playing the chords the way you heard them? And you're doing your pantomiming vocally, the thing that you've heard. But I've heard people do it. I was not ever particularly moved by anyone, like interpretation wise, but I've heard people do it. I have never tried that song. I would love to do that song. Um, if I ever leave my house again to do anything publicly performancy. Um, you know, it's, I'm old.

• 1:26:16Speaker 05

  Book tour, do it on your book tour. Just, just don't explain the, the relationship. That's right. I'm gonna, just gonna start off with a few tunes. Yeah, you gotta do it. Um, you mentioned like Rockstar. I agree with you completely on Rockstar, the honesty, the bracing, you know, welcome honesty of it. But like this is, this is a band with some dorky hornball action, you know, I, there's a song called Something In Your Mouth. That's just a fact. I, are you, are you, exactly. Are, are you drawn to or immediately revulsed by like horny teenage knucklehead energy? Or is this another thing that you're told not to like, but like there is some aspect of it that, that appeals to you?

• 1:26:58Speaker 07

  I was a dorky 16 year old black girl in Baltimore, Maryland in a pink sweater who loved poison. I don't know why.

• 1:27:06Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:27:07Speaker 07

  I just did.

• 1:27:08Speaker 05

  I do. The Poison are great. This is not something that requires.

• 1:27:12Speaker 07

  It is wonderful. And Bret Michaels, I enjoy mostly because he was this guy like in the 2000s where he was like dying every other week. And he would just show up to shit like go say, perfect example. So American Idol was doing these finales where like they would have people come on and they would, the kids would sing a song and they'd sing a medley. You're like, oh no, that person's gonna come out and sing. So I'm with my husband, we're at the Fox forty, uh, forty, whatever it was, Fox, whatever it was in, um, West Palm Beach. And I'm about to do the commentary and they start singing Poison songs to my husband. Bret Michaels literally had a stroke last week. This cannot be him. And he comes out and he's singing whatever. It's because he's that dude. He's like, they gave me a check. They wanted to sing my songs. I showed up where it is.

• 1:27:56Speaker 05

  If I need to be in a hospital bed, just point me toward.

• 1:28:00Speaker 07

  You know, and.

• 1:28:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:28:01Speaker 07

  And I've met him. He's a lovely person. He's a lovely person.

• 1:28:05Speaker 05

  I'm glad to hear that.

• 1:28:06Speaker 07

  Really just such a good dude. And I enjoyed, he was there for the sake of the music. And I think that that to me applies to things like Nickelback or like, you know, Warrant's Heaven. Or like, which is a heartbreakingly perfect song. It's perfect. Because it's just, it just is. And it just, or high enough. But damn Yankees. I mean, I disavow the.

• 1:28:37Speaker 05

  You've mentioned that before. That's good. Yeah. The Ted Nugent is rough, but yeah, it's still a good song. Totally.

• 1:28:43Speaker 07

  But there's a beauty in just the sincerity of like, I love Night Ranger Man. I sing Sister Christian in my car. I sing. Like Sentimental Street in my car all the time. It's just just like these anthems that just like crank it up and I. And I remember realizing that no one thought this was cool. That I love this music. People like, what is that? And like, and then you go through, well, I don't really like this. Go fuck it. Yes, I do. I don't care. And you do. And so I didn't so much embrace it to be contrarian. I embraced it because it's really what I liked.

• 1:29:21Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah, you can't love something like this ironically, right? You gotta actually believe yourself.

• 1:29:27Speaker 07

  Yeah. And there was like that whole thing 10 years ago where everyone was like doing macrame and wearing fringe bangs and like doing like.

• 1:29:36Speaker 05

  I think I missed that, but I trust you. Macrame.

• 1:29:39Speaker 07

  Macrame and everyone just being like super weird, ironic. It's just like, it's painful. It's like in the nineties when we were like swing dancing.

• 1:29:47Speaker 05

  We were not me personally, but we collectively were.

• 1:29:51Speaker 07

  I did.

• 1:29:52Speaker 05

  I'm sure you were. I don't doubt that.

• 1:29:53Speaker 07

  It was terrible and I loved it. I loved it.

• 1:29:57Speaker 07

  Jump jive and whale, bitches. Jump jive and whale.

• 1:30:01Speaker 05

  That's right. Uh, just to wrap up, I have this theory that we always need a huge rock bands. That like everyone hates, right? Or performatively, I feel like Imagine Dragons. Has this energy now. I think Maroon five somehow has this energy now, like Post Malone is a little more complicated, but there is that like, oh, not this guy. Sort of energy to him, like does society always require like a punching band, rock band or person?

• 1:30:29Speaker 07

  And everyone will look at it. He's not wrong, but look at Drake. Look at poor Drake.

• 1:30:37Speaker 05

  There's even more going on there, but I get you. I know. Yes.

• 1:30:40Speaker 07

  That he, he, once again, Drake is a fiction. Created by Aubrey Graham to play a character in cosplay. American urban blackness rap as a Canadian. Like child star and it is what it is, but the fact that, and he was doing fine, but then he couldn't stop him. Then someone like Kendrick who goes.

• 1:31:11Speaker 07

  Hey, and that that I read that thing that said, I wish I'd written this, that Drake bought a lawyer to a rap battle.

• 1:31:19Speaker 05

  There, that's a beautiful way of putting it. I did not expect us to talk about this, but I'm so glad we are.

• 1:31:25Speaker 07

  I'm just saying that there isn't pop culture.

• 1:31:27Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 1:31:28Speaker 07

  We're not in a big rock moment right now, so we're looking at whatever it is.

• 1:31:32Speaker 05

  We certainly are not and haven't been for a quarter century.

• 1:31:35Speaker 07

  A quarter century. When we look at whatever's popular, there's always a person that the cool people have to dislike. And that it's not artistic. There's no problem with Drake till he doesn't stop talking. And, you know, I'm not gonna speculate, but, you know, I refer you to the opening lines of Not Like Us. Um, anyway, um, with my sis, my son and I listened to on Thanksgiving in the car. We first listened to, um, Hot to Go, and I was like, we cannot listen to the song together. I'm sorry, we cannot listen to Chapel Road in the car.

• 1:32:07Speaker 05

  That is uncomfortable. That is, I play that song for my four-year-old daughter, and that's the only Chapel Road song I think that I could. I want to do casual, but I can't. It's, it's hot to go, or it's nothing. And even that, even that is.

• 1:32:21Speaker 07

  She's so, when he's 15, I'll say.

• 1:32:22Speaker 05

  Once again, I had no idea this was gonna happen. Yeah.

• 1:32:25Speaker 07

  No, it just happened. What I'm saying is that, yes, there's always a moment where people go, this is not a thing that you should like, and it's music, it's music, it's TV shows. This is like, this is like when Abbott Elementary came out and people were like, there should be a school shooting episode. It's like, why would we want reality to tread on that? Just let it be what it is. And I feel like Nickelback was like, this is who we are. Yes, people hate us, they don't hate us, and their fans are super devoted. And I love it. It was a great documentary. I'm not like a super fan, but I'm a fan of the stuff that they do.

• 1:33:03Speaker 05

  You appreciate them.

• 1:33:05Speaker 07

  I appreciate them. And like, I appreciate, you know, like he was, Chad Kroeger was briefly married to, you know, Avril Lavigne. And there was like that brief Canadian super couple poppy situation. And I, I don't know.

• 1:33:17Speaker 05

  The Royal Family of Connect Canada.

• 1:33:20Speaker 07

  You know what? It's not my business, but.

• 1:33:22Speaker 05

  I would stay out of that. Absolutely, yes.

• 1:33:25Speaker 07

  For one brief shining moment that was known as Camelot. You know what I'm saying? It was what it was. And. I appreciate that they're still at it. I appreciate that, like, watching the yacht rock thing and watching Christopher Cross, who I saw about 10 years ago at Sunfest, it was a festival in West Palm Beach, and he did like the Sunday morning thing, and they rocked that shit. He did some like jazzy stuff, and when he gets to, "All right, you're gonna make it." I'm like, "Yes, Christopher Cross!"

• 1:34:02Speaker 05

  Beautiful moment. It's a pure, it's a Nickelback moment. I am so glad that you are here.

• 1:34:08Speaker 07

  Like what you like, dude. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for letting me drone on about stuff, as usual.

• 1:34:14Speaker 05

  This has been absolutely phenomenal, as always. It is wonderful to talk to you, Leslie. You will be back soon. You will be back sooner. Go get Leslie's book. Thank you so much for being here.

• 1:34:24Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 1:34:30Speaker 05

  Thanks very much to our guests this week. Thanks to our producers Jonathan Kerma and Justin Sayles. Thanks to Olivia Creary for additional production help. Thanks to Juliana Ress for fact checking, and thanks very much to you for listening. And now, please, let's all go listen to How You Remind Me. We'll see you next week.