Rhiannon Interviews Mahmoud Khalil

On this episode of Popular Cradle, (Rhiannon’s other podcast!), she interviews Columbia grad student Mahmoud Khalil, who was detained by ICE for more than 100 days earlier this year. You can find Popular Cradle wherever you listen to podcasts. Our Sponsors: * Check out Mint Mobile and use my code mintmobile.com/fivefour for a great deal: https://www.mintmobile.com * Check out Quince and use my code FIVEFOUR for a great deal: https://www.quince.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey y'all, it's Rhiannon. Just wanted to hop in here and introduce my other podcast, Popular Cradle, to 54 listeners. Popular Cradle is a podcast about Palestine and the struggle for Palestinian liberation from here in the far diaspora. I am dropping this particular episode of Popular Cradle into the 54 feed because I think you 54 listeners will really appreciate it because it connects directly with someone we've talked about on the podcast several times now, someone who is a real inspiration to me. I'm not going to do a duplicative intro here. You're going to hear all about it. I'm just going to say, run the tape, and I hope you enjoy this episode of Popular Cradle.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Salute to the free people of the world, the ordinary, all of us here who have given our times, who have given our lives to an extraordinary struggle, the struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Friends and comrades, welcome to the second annual People's Conference for Palestine.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Salaam, everyone. Welcome to Popular Cradle. This is Rhiannon with you today, and we are bringing you a special episode of the podcast, coming off of our time at the Second Annual People's Conference for Palestine in Detroit. This was a convening of the Palestine Movement hosted by the PYM over Labor Day weekend. We were lucky enough to go attend the conference and to record some of our time there. And so, this is going to be episode one of a series where we will be taking you with us to the People's Conference and sharing interviews we did with speakers and attendees while we were

• 1:44Speaker 00

  there. We're talking about organizers, labor leaders, lawyers, cultural workers, all sorts of folks. So in this episode, you're going to hear some of my own first impressions of arriving at the People's Conference, and then we will move into hearing from Mahmoud Khalil, the Palestinian Columbia University student who was detained by ICE for more than 100 days. Mahmoud Khalil was a speaker at the conference, so we're going to share some of his remarks to the crowd of thousands of people. And after his speech, you are going to also hear our exclusive interview with Mahmoud. So, let's start with day one of the conference.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  We are at the People's Conference for Palestine in Detroit. It is Labor Day weekend. I'm sure folks listening can hear the sound of the crowd in the background. There were over, I just heard the count, there were over 4,000 registrants for this conference. It's an amazing, massive group of people here. And for sure, all of these attendees, I mean, it's people from all over the world who are here, including from Palestine, people from the West Bank, and speakers from Gaza who are going to be virtually attending, virtually speaking on panels. It's an amazing collective. I'm a little bit overwhelmed, actually, at the number of people who are here,

• 3:13Speaker 00

  the energy that you can feel palpable right now in this massive hall. So as I'm looking out at this main hall, it is filled with dozens of vendors, people selling goods from Palestine, artists who are selling their work, organizers, bookstores. There's a VR station for experiencing what Gaza looks and feels like right now with Bisan from Gaza. I was really looking forward, I think, to coming to the conference for this exact feeling, which is being part of a collective, the proof in the masses of people who are here

• 3:52Speaker 00

  that we are part of a massive global majority that stands in solidarity with Palestine, that is focused and dedicated to Palestinian liberation, and that wants to see an end to this genocide. Not just an end to the genocide, actually, but organizing and pushing and fighting even beyond that for a free and liberated Palestine from the river to the sea. And, you know, when we're in our locales, whether we're organizing or we're just, you know, people going out into the streets and protesting, it can feel really isolating in this moment. And being at the People's Conference right now, I am feeling exactly like the power of all of us in one space together.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Obviously, not all of us, not everybody in this global majority, but to have an opportunity to convene with people who are in this movement alongside one another. But this proves, like, really, we are shoulder to shoulder in this fight together. Okay, so we're gonna take you into the main hall, where all of the plenary panels and the keynote, the keynote addresses are going to take place. This ballroom space has been renamed this weekend, NS Al Sharif Hall, of course, after the assassinated reporter in Gaza, NS Al Sharif. All of the meeting spaces, all of the speaking rooms, it's been renamed after a prisoner or a martyr of this genocide.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  And again, just keeping Gaza as the compass, so that in every step of the way, in every aspect of this program, we know that Gaza is what is bringing us all together, and Gaza is what we're fighting for. So as sessions are about to start, as this program is about to open, there's a really palpable energy for everybody here, looking forward to the program starting. So tune in, we are so excited to be able to bring our listeners along, to join us in what we will be discussing this weekend, the people that we're going to be able to talk to this weekend, and everybody in this mass recommitment to the end of the genocide in Gaza and to freedom for Palestine.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Our next speaker is one of the students that Hatem mentioned that refused to stay silent about Gaza.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  When the Trump administration tried to turn his immigration status into a muzzle, he continued to refuse. He refused to stay quiet, addressing us through many letters, addressing us through many letters from his ICE detention center where he sat for more than 100 days, Mahmoud Khalil,

• 6:43Speaker 01

  urged all of us to continue fighting for the people of Gaza, reminded us... Reminded us of what our struggle is about. What is important. The real-life people of Gaza. The concrete and actual stories. And all of those who are victims of the injustice that Gaza and the struggle against this genocide reveals. Immigrants and many, many others. A son of a Galilee and in a long tradition of Palestinian political prisoners who have provided our movement leadership. Please, brothers and sisters, welcome Mahmoud Khalil.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And if they think otherwise, what we tell them?

• 8:30Speaker 02

  We're not going anywhere.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I mean, Dr. Hatem really fired me up.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  I'm not sure how I can match that energy. But it's true. The student movement is the moral compass of this country.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  And I want to say to Abu Bakr, when he said that we give him hope. In fact, we get our hope. We get our persistence from the people of Gaza.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  This is our moral duty to speak up in a time of genocide. Palestine is the compass. But here's the thing, what does it mean?

• 9:38Speaker 02

  It cannot just be a slogan. It must guide us, how we act and how we build. It guided me in the refugee camp where I grew up. Growing up in a Palestinian refugee camp in Syria, where you are surrounded by the injustices, you see firsthand the struggle of your people. You see it in the eyes of your mother when she's asking neighbors for money to get by through the rest of the month. You see it in your neighbors. You see it in your grandparents' voices

• 10:23Speaker 02

  when they talk about their life in Tiberias, in Palestine. You see it in your brothers, who are struggling to get a visa to travel. But also, you see it in yourself, a young boy watching your people massacred on TV.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Every conversation in the camp was about survival, but also about dignity, where every children understood.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  When even children understood that our lives were tied to something bigger than us. And when I got detained, I had few options. One, to remain silent and just wish that the system may vindicate me. Another option is to focus on my case, to focus on my family, and appeal to the people's emotions.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  And another is to focus and to connect my case to the larger case of oppression against Palestinians.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I choose the latter. I chose that because I knew that I was targeted because I am Palestinian. Because I knew that by my detention, they want to deflect from the reality that Israel is committing a genocide, that Israel has killed and maimed over 100,000 Palestinians and is carrying out this genocide backed by billions of US dollars' money.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  That's what they wanted to do. They wanted me to just care about myself, just to care about my immigration status and to ignore the plight of my people. By being vocal, I took and taking now, I'm taking a huge risk and being put under a microscope by the US government. They want to intimidate me, they want to silence us, and in all honesty, it would be much easier and safer for me to remain silent. But silence is not an option and should not be an option.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  I will not remain silent in the face of a genocide. I will not stay silent when my people are being starved and massacred and I will continue to keep the focus on Palestine and its liberation.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  In organizing spaces, there were moments when such spaces felt heavy with tension. Disagreements, egos, ideologies, sometimes it felt that those things would pull us apart. In all these moments, every single one of them, I reminded myself and those around me that Palestine is the compass. Not our pride, not our grudges, but the liberation of our people.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Palestine and Gaza are the compass. It means to me that we build a national liberation movement whose compass is the liberation of land and people.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  A movement that's bigger than me, that's bigger than any one of us. It means building the foundations of a long-term struggle, an infrastructure that will outlast us as individuals. A movement that pulls in the largest possible base of people to fight for Palestinian liberation anywhere and everywhere.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Because the last thing that we want is when this genocide ends,

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Israel would get away with its genocide, that everyone would forget about Israel's crimes against our people.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Palestine is the compass also means to me that we build a movement rooted in Palestinian voices and experiences,

• 15:07Speaker 02

  in all their diversity, a movement open to allies across the world.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  And let me tell you this:

• 15:19Speaker 02

  The Palestinian liberation movement is winning.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  The fact that I was targeted by the highest officials and levels of this country means that we are winning.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Means that we are succeeding in shifting the mainstream in this country for Palestine to be the mainstream.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  Also, it shows that our movement threatens the status quo, that it punctures the Zionist narrative and the propaganda that Israel depends on. Because Zionism only depends by portraying that Israel is a normal state, it's an ordinary state. But our work is to strip that facade until Israel stands exposed as a pariah state and to the Zionist genocidal project and the ideology of supremacy that it's built on collapse completely.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Because Gaza has shown the world what resilience looks like, what a truth looks like, what it means to refuse erasure. Even in the face of genocide, Gaza is the compass. Palestine is the compass.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  And as we march forward, not as individuals, but as a people, as a movement, as a revolution, until return, until liberation, until victory. Free Palestine.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  I believe that we will win. Thank you again, Mahmoud.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  So that was Mahmoud Khalil's powerful speech at the People's Conference. And I think what I was so struck by is that you hear this about Mahmoud Khalil, you know this about Mahmoud Khalil, but to see it happening in front of you is really something. And that's his insistence on centering Gaza, his insistence that we must be centering Palestine, the way he connects what happened to him to the bigger picture, which is the struggle for liberation. He talked about all these ways that this struggle is difficult, of course. Obviously, he was detained for more than 100 days. He has been a witness to suffering. He talks about difficulty and tension in organizing spaces.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  And still, he's always talking about, what is our duty? What are we building? He says, "We're building the infrastructure that will outlast us as individuals." So the way Mahmoud Khalil models giving of oneself, models the refusal to be turned into just a story of one person, the way he models commitment to a cause that is greater than the individual. I was so impacted by this in the moment. And this was just one of many things I was thinking about when I was able to sit down with Mahmoud one-on-one after his speech. So the next thing you'll hear is our interview with Mahmoud.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  It is an honor, this afternoon, at the People's Conference for Palestine, to have just a little bit of Mahmoud Khalil's time. Mahmoud Khalil, welcome to Popular Cradle and thank you so, so much for being here. It is an honor.

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you so much for having me.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  We appreciate it so much. So we have heard from you. You obviously have taken up this important responsibility to be talking with the press and the media. So we know a lot about the conditions of your detention and this kind of thing. We know you have ongoing cases even. I think what we're interested in talking about today is maybe how you have thought about this. Role of political prisoner, how it was thrust upon you and how you thought about your communications from detention. We, obviously, as Palestinians, we know there's a history, a tradition of our political prisoners in prison, not just for being Palestinian, but for what they represent, right?

• 20:36Speaker 00

  And the Zionist entity wants to target these people for what they mean to our people and what they represent for us. And then our political prisoners have done so much for our struggle, contributed so much to our energy to continue to take up the fight for a free Palestine. So you in detention were no different. How did you decide to publish your writings? You know, I'm thinking about Letter From A Palestinian Political Prisoner in Louisiana and also the beautiful letter you wrote to your son. How did you decide to publish your writing while you were in detention?

• 21:11Speaker 03

  So basically, as you've mentioned, the main target was, you know, because we're Palestinians, because of what we represent. And I knew from the very beginning that my targeting was part of an effort to chill speech in this country, to actually make an example out of me.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  So others wouldn't speak up for Palestine. And that Palestine was threatening them to that point, that they had to go back to like 1952 to dig Allah to come after me. So that was the main purpose. I knew that very, very well. And they had a few options when I was in detention. Like the first one, you know, like just be silent, you know, like, just like, don't make a big fuss. And then maybe that they will let you stay in this country. The other option was.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  To to just focus on my case at that point, you know, like I'm a recent grad, my my wife is American citizen. She's pregnant, so that would play well with like, you know, the American conscious and to focus that's it's a purely First Amendment, our freedom of speech like matter, which I refuse to. And the third option, which is I knew that my my case is is just a continuation of of the Palestinian struggle, that violence against Palestinians is is cross borders. It's not only it doesn't stop only like in in Palestine or in Israeli prison. It was way beyond that. And I I wanted to to take that opportunity to actually shed light

• 22:51Speaker 03

  on on on what's what's happening in Palestine, how my story is is only, I think I I I describe it as as a drop in the sea of of Palestinian sorrow and and struggle. Because they they wanted, by by targeting me, they wanted like sort of to deflect the attention from what's happening in Palestine and to to to make us like just, you know, busy about our own survival.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  About what we like, you know, just like me as as a person separated from the movement. So it was very important to me in these in these writings to give hope to other people that despite all these miserable condition conditions, despite all these smear campaigns and and, you know, the targeting that no, we will not remain silent. We should continue to speak up. And I believe that was like a huge responsibility, just not to let them succeed in what they initially wanted, which is to silence us.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, silence, isolate, make people afraid of saying more. Yeah, I think, you know, you talked about the responsibility. I just want to say about the the power of these writings. I myself read some of your writings in front of rallies to groups of people. It was at a time when. Trump's, the Trump administration, everything, this repression campaign, people were really feeling it. And so to hear from someone that was the direct target, sacrificing so much and still speaking, it was so very important. I wonder if you were inspired by particular figures, loved ones, family members, our people's history and tradition, or just like experiences you've had. What did you know about like what it means to be a political prisoner?

• 24:45Speaker 00

  And like, how did you navigate it with so much conviction, so much intention?

• 24:51Speaker 03

  I was raised in a Palestinian household, connected to the Palestinian struggle at every conjunction, like at every, at every corner. And I could see the injustices that's happening to Palestinians now. Like, I don't have to read about like what it means for that. Like, I, you know, like extended members of the family or people around me who were targeted by Israel, whether like being in prison but also like killed. And, and I, you know, I was raised as so many Palestinians, reading Ghazan Kinefani, like reading Mahmoud Darwish, reading about like the different Palestinian struggles, whether it's in prison or outside of prison.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  And, and that what made me like more and more convinced. And then to have that conviction about like the importance of these writings and moving the global conscious about Palestine. And also, like, I must say that I was also like very much inspired by the youngest students in this country, who the majority of them are not Palestinians, who put their lives at risk, their futures at risk, being detained, deported, detained, expelled, suspended from their schools. A lot of them, they had, again, like nothing to do with Palestine

• 26:19Speaker 03

  as a home country. So that inspired me a lot too. And also just the struggle of Palestinians, like it's what's happening to them right now in Palestine. I remembered. Dr. Husein Abou Sofiya, of course, like being thrown into Israeli jails for doing nothing, for just being, for just being like a doctor who cares about his people. I of course remembered Basir al-Araj and his writings about the importance of not only being an intellectual, not only like being educated, because this wouldn't liberate you or your people and to actually take the step forward towards liberation.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  I went to, speaking of Basir al-Araj, I went to the global, the March to Gaza in Cairo over the summer. And of course, the march didn't end up happening, but I was in Cairo and I ended up meeting Gazawi families, recent refugees, and a few of them said that it's obvious that what's happening in Gaza, Israel not only targeting, you know, fighters or who they think are fighters, but also targeting intellectuals, our people's thinkers.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  This is what threatens Israel more than anything. They want to target those who advocate for the rights of Palestinians, who expose their crimes, because Israel, to a very large degree, depends on its propaganda, on its image as a normal country or as a miracle country in the West. And the fact that you have so many eloquent Palestinians and allies who are exposing these lies is actually threatening the foundation of Israel in so many different ways than what a frequent fighter is doing or the resistance is doing within the West Bank or Gaza. And that's why, you know, like they targeted Hassan

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Kinefani because of his speech, Najil Ali because of just like some caricature and paintings. This is also like... Again, like really fundamentally threatening to the Zionist ideology and propaganda.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  No, exactly. I have kind of like a big question, but you have taken up, you know, a struggle again without being given a choice, right? These things just happen to you. There's so much personally in your life that's at risk. You're a husband, you're a father, you know, a member of a family, building your life here in the States. So what makes this cause for you worth fighting for? You know, why is continuing to be part of the movement for a liberated Palestine, why is it worth such a risk?

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the fear is real and the exhaustion and the feeling of being unheard and, you know, like you're just one person and you should care about your family. All of that is very real and we should do that. But to me, you know, that when I feed Dean, my son, when I look at his face, I just remember the faces of the Palestinian children who don't have the luxury of being safe, of being fed. And they call it luxury and it shouldn't be. It's a mere right that any human being, regardless of who they are,

• 29:51Speaker 03

  should get. And to think that what's happening in Gaza and Palestine is far from us is wrong. The oppression is at our door and Israel and its lobby problem is our mere existence as Palestinian. Even if we don't say anything, just that you are Palestinian, that you're saying that you are Palestinian, they have an issue with that. And I don't know, like to me.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  You know, the the the cost of of remaining silent is is much higher than actually speaking up. Especially when when it's compared, and it shouldn't be compared, to the struggles of of Palestinians in Gaza and across Palestine, the miseries that they go through every day just to to to exist and to continue holding the the the cause, the Palestinian cause. And and I consider myself as a Palestinian who was born and raised in in a refugee camp.

• 31:08Speaker 03

  I consider myself one of the lucky ones who now here have this this luxury. That's what I call luxury of being here, actually being able to study, to learn, to read, and to advocate for for Palestine.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Has it changed your relationship with the US and Palestine? That you're making your life in a country that now all of a sudden is so hostile to you and what you represent?

• 31:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I've I've I've been all my life very, very well aware of the impact of the US foreign policy on on us as Palestinians since I was, you know, young, since I was in Syria. So that in particular did not did not change. Like, I I did not come here thinking that it's it's paradise. But at the same time, it's it's shocking to see the extent that the establishment in this country would go to suppress Palestinian voting voices and anything about Palestine. So it's not that like the Palestine exception did not did not exist in this country before, but now it's taking different forms. And it's it's it's you can explain it because.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  The movement itself also has shifted. In the past, they did not have to do what they are doing now. Because it was not in the mainstream. It was not like as obvious or in their faces as now. But over the years and like the very, the past few years, the issue of Palestine shifted from being just like an issue or a foreign policy issue, becoming a very mainstream matter in US politics that every single politician in this country talk about, that every university actually talk about. This meant that the state had to change its tactics to try to contain the movement.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  And this is what they're trying now to do with whether my targeting and whether in this conference by, you know, cancelling the visas and turning people away, all of that. And this shows us the limitation of the American democracy when it comes to issues that are, that goes against like the interest of the establishment. And again, they are fearing that because the American public is awakening. I think now we can say that the majority, or over 50% of Americans, they support Palestine, which is a huge shift, like a huge shift from a few years ago.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  But this means also another responsibility on us as Palestinians, as people who care about Palestine, to raise up also to the moment and step up our work and see what's the next step that would actually match the current reality.

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, what's called of us right now, yeah. Is there anything from your, from your time in detention that has stuck with you that maybe, you know, you continue to think about or a memory or the people that were also in detention with you that maybe, you know, when you're talking to media, it's so much about you, about Palestine, about free speech. But is there another aspect of your time in detention that maybe it doesn't get asked about much?

• 34:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, what stuck with me mostly is that there's so many injustices happening on US soil that a lot of us don't know, even if we.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Think that we are like, you know, like educated or or know a lot about like American politics. And and what exactly like really stuck with me is is the personal stories of so many detainees who

• 35:06Speaker 03

  who were verified, who were dehumanized on the media as immigrants as a whole, like criminals and and all these like vicious and horrible words like to describe them. But in reality, they're like, you know, they're just humans and they are here, you know, seeking better future for for themselves and and their their families. So this is like when you get shocked at where, you know, American rule of law, constitution stops. It's it's it's not, you know, that that thing that we we read about, like, you know, when when like America proclaims like freedom, liberty and

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Bill of Rights.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  All of that, which which should scare everyone. It should scare not only us as as people of color or us as immigrants or us as as different, but every single one in this country who who does not align with with power in this country.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  You've talked about how the struggle for Palestinian liberation, it shows us actually, it reveals that these struggles are not something happening far away, but actually something at our own doorstep, in our own country here in the US. Do you think that our movement, you know, is there a place where our movement can take up this intersection, right, with with immigrant justice? With, like you said, your your one drop in a sea of other detainees in Gina, Louisiana, even?

• 36:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, here, I think it's it's a very fine line between being in solidarity and to build the cross movement or solidarity and actually being co-opted by other movements, which is very, very, very dangerous, not only like to our movement, but also to other movements. And as as Palestinians, I see ourselves so much in places where we

• 37:09Speaker 03

  We feel the burden of actually talking also about other causes because of just the amount of injustice that we endured, that we feel that we should talk about immigrants, about LGBTQ rights, about immigrants, like about Palestine, like freedom, everything in this country, women's rights, everything. And to me, that's very important to maintain the solidarity, but also to maintain centering Palestine as Palestinians, maintaining, like, focusing on building a movement as wide as possible that would center Palestine, that would be principled on the solidarity with other movements, that doesn't forget Palestinians,

• 37:54Speaker 03

  that doesn't practice, what I would say, like purity politics or purity tests, where if you're not 100% like us, then you're not like us, which is very dangerous. And unfortunately, we can see it now in different parts of the movements, that you can see this fracture, that people are forgetting that why we are organizing, we're not organizing for the sake of organizing, we are organizing for a free Palestine. So I think that must be always like, yeah, we shouldn't be naive or, you know, like, just like, like, I wouldn't say like too nice, but like.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Right, it's not about holding hands.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  And this goes into the strategy of the movement and how can, like, to maintain, and this is a question I always like, that keeps me awake at night, like, how can we sustain the movement beyond the genocide? How can we ensure that we have sustained the pressure on the power structure of this country? How can we hold Israel accountable and get what's right for our people beyond the genocide? Beyond, like, you don't have to see people getting killed on your screens every day to act. Just the fact that there's occupation, the fact that there is this colonization project happening

• 39:22Speaker 03

  in that land should by itself enrage us and push us to do more and more for Palestine.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  It's worth our sacrifice. It's worth taking up a hard cause. Because something worth. Fighting for, right? The thing that is most beautiful as a reward, which would be liberation. Of course, it's going to be difficult, right? This is like the direct implication that it's taking up a cause, you know, requires this sacrifice because it's such a big responsibility. Maybe we just have one more question. I wonder if you're reading or watching or listening to anything that is inspiring to you right now. When you close your eyes and look into your future, what is something you're looking forward to?

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Well, I would be lying if I truly like I'm having a lot of time with with reading, watching, just like I have a newborn now, staking 100% of my time. In addition to just like all the things that's happening in my life with the legal case. And and to me, just like mostly like what keeps me inspired.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  Just like, you know, seeing the organizing, seeing the energy. That's that's taking place across the globe, not only in here. That's that's absolutely something like keeps me going. I'm reading now The Message of Tanahezi Coats. And I haven't reached the Palestine section yet. But it's also like inspiring, again, like going back to the cross movement solidarity. And within around around the world and actually going back to our roots and and start thinking from from there. And to think about how liberation is is is collective. It's not about liberating myself and subjugating others.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  It's actually about mutual liberation and collective liberation as a whole.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  Mahmoud, thank you so much. I cannot say what an honor it is to meet you, to have you share your time with us on the podcast. We are so, so grateful.

• 41:33Speaker 03

  No, the honor is mine. Thank you so much.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Before we end this episode, we should note that Mahmoud Khalil's case is ongoing. An immigration court recently ordered that Mahmoud Khalil be deported from this country. His legal team is appealing that decision, and another case in federal court is also ongoing. As of this recording, Mahmoud Khalil remains in the United States, as committed and vocal as ever.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Popular Cradle is made in partnership with the Palestinian Youth Movement. Thank you to the many people who contributed to the making of this episode. Our editor is Soraya Shockley. Our artwork is by Shen B. G. and Vivek Ben Khatraman. Our theme music is composed by Salma Talib and performed by Clarissa Bitar and Hisham Jarmakani. Follow, like, and subscribe to us on social media @PopularCradle. That's YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram @PopularCradle.