“What’s at Stake is Everything”: The Last Columbia Protester in ICE Detention

You've heard about all the Supreme Court cases about how immigration law is different, about how ICE's powers are different, about how the Trump administration can do whatever it wants…on this episode, Rhiannon talks to Leqaa Kordia's lawyers about what all this means for a Palestinian woman in ICE detention right now. The good news is: our liberation is interconnected, and we can fight the good fight. Sign the Free Leqaa Petition: Free Leqaa Campaign https://secure.everyaction.com/6U1ygBt6eUK-Ycw0c-_bNw2?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGnV_iAtNqMcHkNolDi68OsA3HWcp_0jWpC3fwI32Y93lVJjK3PfYH_efzdZCw_aem_3fk_KUpxVS70vaPW_6BKlQ Follow the Free Leqaa Campaign on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freeleqaakordia/ Hear Leqaa in her own words: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/detained-the-last-columbia-protester/id207505466?i=1000735106793 New Yorker article: https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/the-last-columbia-protester-in-ice-detention If you're not a 5-4 Premium member, you're not hearing every episode! To hear this and other Premium-only episodes, access to our Slack community, and more, join at fivefourpod.com/support http://fivefourpod.com/support. 5-4 is presented by Prologue Projects. This episode was produced by Dustin DeSoto. Leon Neyfakh provides editorial support. Our website was designed by Peter Murphy. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chips NY, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations. Transcriptions of each episode are available at fivefourpod.com http://fivefourpod.com Follow the show at @fivefourpod on most platforms. On BlueSky, find Peter @notalawyer.bsky.social, Michael @fleerultra.bsky.social, and Rhiannon @aywarhiannon.bsky.social. Our Sponsors: * Check out Mint Mobile and use my code mintmobile.com/fivefour for a great deal: https://www.mintmobile.com * Check out Quince and use my code FIVEFOUR for a great deal: https://www.quince.com Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Hey everyone, it's Rhiannon. On this special episode of Five to Four, I interview two lawyers who represent Laqat Kordiyeh, a Palestinian woman currently in ICE detention. Laqat was one of many who showed up to protest genocide outside Columbia University in the spring of 2024. After that, she was surveilled by ICE and put in detention earlier this year. Despite a judge ordering twice that she be released, Laqat remains in detention eight months later. Her attorneys talk to me about how the government has used procedural tricks to keep Laqat detained, how Laqat's targeting connects to the Trump regime's repression of dissent, and what's at stake for all of us in Laqat's case. This is Five to Four,

• 0:50Speaker 00

  a podcast about how much ICE sucks.

• 0:59Speaker 00

  We are very, very honored, so appreciative to have a little bit of time today with some of Laqat Kordiyeh's lawyers. We are honored to welcome Amal Thabateh and Sadaf Hassan to Five to Four. Welcome, Amal and Sadaf.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for having us. It's truly an honor to talk about our favorite person today.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Yes. Amal is a lawyer with the Clear Project. Sadaf is a lawyer with Muslim Advocates, and they represent Laqat Kordiyeh alongside the Texas Civil Rights Project and the Boston University School of Law Immigrants Rights Clinic, as well as the private law firm Waters Kraus Paul and Siegel. And so, Amal and Sadaf are joining us today to talk about their client, Laqat Kordiyeh, the last of the Columbia protesters to still be held in ICE custody. You know, our listeners know a little bit about, for example, like Mahmoud Khalil, because we've talked about Mahmoud on Five to Four before, you know, the Columbia University graduate student, a legal permanent resident who was detained by ICE for over 100 days,

• 2:03Speaker 00

  missed the birth of his child. But Mahmoud Khalil has been released. And at the same time, Laqat Cordilla, who was arrested just days after Mahmoud, has not been released. She is still in ICE detention. So I want to talk to you guys about Laqat. And so maybe we can start, I'm gonna start by reading the first paragraph from a piece about Laqat that dropped a couple of weeks ago in The New Yorker, just to set the stage for us. "On a Monday afternoon in late September, a group of students and professors from Columbia University stood outside the campus gates, holding large printed photos of people whom the US government is seeking to deport. After two tumultuous years of protests, multiple waves of arrests,

• 2:47Speaker 00

  and ultimately, a $221 million settlement with the Trump administration, the university has returned to something resembling normality. But such gatherings remain commonplace, often with members of the faculty holding photos of Mahmoud Khalil and Mohsin Mahdawi, whose highly-publicized cases made them symbols of the government's crackdown on student protesters. That day, someone held the photo of a woman largely unknown to the public, Laqat Cordilla, who was not a Columbia student, but a "simple Palestinian girl", as she describes herself, who's been in ICE detention in Texas for the past eight months. So I want to turn it over to you all. Can you just help us understand? Tell us a little bit, who is Laqat Cordilla?

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Why is she in immigration detention?

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just before starting, just want to uplift immense gratitude and appreciation for having us here today to talk about our client, Laqat Cordilla. We've had the pleasure and privilege of getting to know Laqat over the course of our representation during the past eight months in which she's been confined by ICE. Laqat is a young, 32-year-old Palestinian Muslim woman from Patterson, New Jersey. She grew up in the West Bank, but spent the better part of the last nine years living in New Jersey and has really deep roots there. Laqat is a daughter, she's a sister, she's a best friend, she's a coworker, and a really beloved member of her community.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Laqat is fiercely and unapologetically Palestinian. She has an immense amount of pride for her identity and culture and background. And this really comes out in any and every conversation that you'll have with Laqat. She's also a devoted Muslim, who's deeply connected to her faith. She's the granddaughter of Nakba survivors. And she's unfortunately lost nearly two hundred members of her family in Gaza. Leqaa is, uh, has a really warm soul. A strong demeanor. She's like a, a natural born leader. She previously worked as a waitress in a restaurant and in a clothing shop prior to being confined by ICE.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Leqaa wouldn't admit this, but she's a really wonderful writer and, and poet. She speaks and writes so eloquently. She's brought me to tears on several different occasions, just with her words. And she's written actually several moving statements and letters while confined. Listeners can actually read some of them on the Instagram page that is run by her loved ones. Um, at Free Leqaa Qoridiya.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  We'll link that in the, in the show notes for everybody.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Perfect, perfect. Leqaa is also really naturally artistic and creative. She studied fashion design in Ramallah. She enjoys tactile art such as painting and, and making pottery, really anything that uh, requires using her hands. She loves making things with her hands. And actually before her confinement, she was learning to play the oud in her spare time. She has really good taste in music and she's actually introduced me to like new artists I've never even, I've never heard of. And lastly, I think I would just add, Leqaa, like, like most Palestinians, is really family oriented. She keeps close ties with her family, both here in New Jersey and elsewhere in the US, but also abroad in Palestine.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  She speaks often and fondly of her mother, her brother, her sister, her cousins, her, and you know, extended family members. So I, yeah, I think I would just end on that note and sort of uplift how family oriented she is.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks so much, Amel. Yeah, I just feel like Amel so beautifully described Leqaa beyond, you know, what we see like in the headlines and I think it's really important for listeners to get like this clear and really rich glimpse into her humanity, which I, you know, I really feel like the government has tried to denied and tried to erase by designing this system of what we've been seeing with not only her, but with others of forcibly disappearing folks into, you know, the black boxes of ICE detention. And so, yeah, I feel like just humanizing Laqat is really important. And I think that's why we're here today, right, is to just make sure, you know, what the government

• 7:11Speaker 01

  has been trying to do to make her story disappear, that it doesn't. And by shipping Laqat thousands of miles away from New Jersey to Texas, you know, as Amel said, she comes from a really vibrant, beautiful Palestinian community in Patterson, and she's been confined by ICE for the last eight months, isolated from her family, her legal team, her community. And so I just wanted to uplift that this is all by design of the government to, you know, try to erase these stories.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  And just on a personal level, like, she's literally the most hilarious, sarcastic, down-to-earth, deeply spiritual, you know, person I've met. Amel and I have learned so much from her. And yeah, so I'm really grateful that we're here today to tell her story.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. So what is different about Laqat's story, if anything? She's arrested by ICE just days after Mahmoud Khalil is arrested and detained. She has been in ICE detention for that long. You know, she's, she's first in New Jersey, where, where she lives. And then all of the sudden, within hours of her detention, she is shipped to a, an ICE detention facility in North Texas called Prairieland. And, you know, she's never been to Texas. In some of the stuff that I've read, like, officers themselves, like, ICE officers are confused themselves, like, there's just cruelty and chaos at every point of this process. They're confused themselves about, like, what the case is about, who she is, and where

• 8:42Speaker 00

  she's going. She's initially told that she's gonna be in upstate New York, something like this, by officers who thought that. Then all of a sudden, she's in Texas. And then, you know, there is just the fact of her ongoing detention, when other sort of, it seems like similarly situated immigrant protesters have been released from that detention. So why is she in immigration detention? Like, what is the government saying?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think Le Kha's story is interwoven with all the stories you just said of Mahmoud Khalil, Ramaisa Az Turk, Mossin, Medawi, and others swept up in the ICE abductions that started in March during Ramadan. I think what connects all their stories together is the Trump administration's McCarthyian-era weaponization of immigration laws to squash organizing and free speech in support of Palestinian liberation. I think they're just to uplift, you know, why is she confined by ICE? I think there's kind of two main reasons why, and I think one of them, which relates to remittances that she's sent to family abroad, slightly, and kind of uniquely situates her story a little bit differently.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  But I do think all their stories are just, yeah, interconnected in terms of what the government agenda is at the moment. And I think those two things are, one, she attended a protest outside the gates of Columbia University, like during the 2024 encampments. And so it was really like a year later when the current administration began its crackdown on the Palestine-Saudi movement, that Le Kha was put on ICE's radar. And like so many of us, you know, she went to the streets to call an end to the genocide in Gaza and to advocate for the freedom and liberation of all Palestinians.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's actually not a Columbia University student, right? She was just attending a protest, like you said, actually outside the gates of the university.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  With hundreds of other people. And I think the other piece that is, I think, unique to Le Kha's story is, you know, once Le Kha was put on ICE's radar because of that protest she had attended a year ago, the government essentially went on a fishing expedition to find any excuse to paint her as a so-called danger to the community. And they've really outrageously latched on to these MoneyGram and Western Union remittances she sent. Quite literally just to provide humanitarian aid to family members abroad in Gaza and elsewhere in the Middle East who are trying to survive genocide, forcible displacement and ongoing occupation. And so whatever money like Laqat could send, she did to her family members in Gaza.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, what was the money? It was just to pay for medical expenses, rebuilding after Israeli military strikes in Gaza, to also just buy gifts for her nieces. All these like very normal things that immigrants do to send money abroad. And, you know, the government has basically tried, as it does in its normal playbook, to paint, you know, money that predominantly Muslim communities sent with suspicion and so-called danger.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just, just to quickly add, you know, I really wouldn't distinguish Laqat from the others who were swept up by ICE in March, right? We know in March, the Trump administration initiated a wave of repression. It started with Mahmoud Khalil's confinement and it ended with Laqat's, all with the intention of silencing the movement of Palestinian liberation, like Sadaf just mentioned. And Laqat's abduction was part of this wave. So while she remains the only one still confined and, and Sadaf and I will sort of, you know, talk about the reasons why and how legally the government has been, you know, using procedural loopholes and gamesmanship to, to keep her confined. While she is the only one who remains confined,

• 12:28Speaker 02

  I really wouldn't otherwise distinguish her from Mahmoud Khalil, Mahzeh Madawi, or Ramisa Oz Turk. You know, she is part of this wave of repression that the government initiated to scare people into silence, to distract us from our own government's complicity and, and involvement in the genocide in Gaza. And you know, maybe not shockingly, actually, this wave produced the opposite result, right? Like, we're seeing how it galvanized millions to speak out for Palestine with with greater conviction than ever before. Um, but with, yeah, with Laquart, unfortunately, it's just, it it's like, it's unequivocally clear that the government is doing everything in its power to keep her confined.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  They're exerting every effort and relying on gamesmanship so that she is the only one who remains still in confinement.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I want to talk about like some of those legal maneuvers a little bit, um, just to sort of like, you know, pull back the curtain, like the, these are the tricks, honestly, and the chaos and the fear tactics. And this is like the machine of the repression at work, right? And so I want to get into some of that, but before I do, I just wanted to talk about like, how all of this goes back to what you were talking about, Amal, which is like our own government's complicity in genocide. Laquart herself is like personally touched by the genocide. She has lost almost two hundred members of her family in the genocide. You talked about the money that she sends back to her family in Gaza, in the West Bank, you know, wherever they are,

• 14:00Speaker 00

  and how that money has gone to support her family in rebuilding. It's rebuilding from prior Israeli bombardment on Gaza. Her aunt lost her home, her home was destroyed in an Israeli bombing of Gaza in twenty twenty one. This is before twenty twenty three. And in total, you know, I read it's something like, this isn't huge sums of money, you know? Something like the equivalent of a few thousand US dollars that in total, that Laquart has has sent to her, to her family abroad. So I just want to highlight exactly what what y'all are saying about like how personal this is and how this attack is is targeted at at just human beings acting like human beings do.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  And so let's talk a little bit about these legal tricks and and the maneuvers, the gamesmanship, as you said. So I know that Laquart has sort of, um, Let's say like two simultaneous or parallel cases. There's a case in immigration court. LaCot has a claim for asylum in immigration court. But there's also this federal case, a case in federal court, that my understanding, and you guys can explain this more, is about the constitutionality of her detention. Is it lawful that she was picked up and that the government is trying to deport her in the first place? On that federal case, in federal district court, a federal judge recommended that LaCot be

• 15:24Speaker 00

  be released from detention while her case moves forward, goes through, goes through the system. And the government came back with another argument and obviously kept her in detention. Can you, yeah, talk about these tricks?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, you correctly identified the two parallel tracks in the legal case in which we are seeking, you know, her immediate release from ICE custody. So after LaCot was abducted, she was flown across multiple state lines to Texas, a forum that is conveniently favorable to the government in both federal and immigration court. And the government has been sending people like LaCot to jurisdictions like Texas or Louisiana because they think they have the best chances of winning there. It's the same reason why the Trump administration is trying to keep cases out of the federal courts and in the immigration system, where the immigration judges serve at the pleasure of the executive. So, you know, the two parallel tracks, there's the immigration case like you identified,

• 16:24Speaker 02

  which takes place before an immigration judge, in which she's actually been ordered releasable on bond, not once, but twice. And we'll explain a little bit more why that didn't stick due to ICE's games in court. And then there's the case in the federal court system before a federal judge. And that's where we filed the habeas petition. And I think important to note that there's a strong interplay between both her immigration and federal habeas cases.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  Federal habeas being like a case where you bring constitutional challenges to your detention, right?

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Exactly, right. So in April, shortly after her arrest and confinement, an immigration judge first held at a hearing that LaCot could be released on bond, which her family paid within less than 24 hours. ICE prevented her release by invoking a rarely-used provision called the automatic stay.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Basically like an automatic pause to her release. While they then would appeal the bond order to the Board of Immigration Appeals, the sort of like body that oversees appeals. We then filed a habeas petition in federal court. Challenging the constitutionality of her confinement and challenging the Trump administration's targeting of LeCot. On the basis that it plainly violates First Amendment protections that she has as a person in this country, citizen or not. It is clear that she was being punished and is being punished for her speech and advocacy for the Palestinian people and and and that's why we brought that claim. And so in the federal case, after a hearing in June this year.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  A magistrate judge recommended to the federal court that she be immediately released. Calling ISIS's use of the automatic stay that I mentioned earlier, likely unconstitutional. And so shortly after this decision came out, the government again shifted goalposts and asked the Board of Immigration Appeals. To change the automatic stay to something called a discretionary one. And the B I A agreed to this in less than a day without giving LeCot the opportunity to respond. So the government is was using these procedural loopholes to keep her confined despite the orders. And recommendations that she be released.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  So now, you know, the district judge handed the case back to the magistrate judge in federal court to issue an updated recommendation factoring these changes and developments. And we're on pins and needles as we await that new recommendation.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Is that expected like anytime soon or it's just like up to them? Is there any timeline?

• 19:07Speaker 02

  There is no timeline. It is. It is totally up to them.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  And, you know, at the same time, like while the baton is with the magistrate judge to release a new report and recommendation, LeCaut again was ordered releasable on bond by the immigration judge for a second time this past August. The judge found that the government presented insufficient evidence to keep her confined. And again, ICE played the same game by blocking the decision, using that automatic stay. And again, like emergency discretionary stay to keep her confined. So she's still confined because of their procedural gamesmanship, which the habeas case could really put an end to.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  I just want to chime in about the automatic stay. I mean, it's basically, the government just simply checks a box on a form to halt the immigration judge's release order. They don't make any arguments, they don't explain anything. And they're basically, you know, usually like, there should be like an individual finding about someone's danger or flight risk. And so the government just has like broad overreach authority to just, you know, check a box on this form and block her release. And they've done this, like Emily said, not once, but twice. Every time the immigration judge has ordered LeCaut releasable on bond, they've invoked

• 20:29Speaker 01

  this automatic pause on the immigration judge's order to release her. And then they've also combined that with requesting, as Emily said, something called the discretionary stay, which is just to, you know, essentially put together, like with the automatic stay and the discretionary stay, it's serving as indefinite confinement that's arbitrary, um, and that, uh, retaliatory at worst. And it explains why she's still confined eight months later, despite an immigration judge finding her releasable on bond twice. And so the kind of procedural loopholes and games that there, that the, you know, ICE has undertaken, we've seen, like Emily said, it's slowing down the relief that we're seeking

• 21:10Speaker 01

  in federal court, where we're trying to challenge the unconstitutionality of her confinement.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, five, four listeners just a couple of episodes ago talked about the difference between. Immigration law, procedures in immigration court, the rights that somebody has in immigration court, the differences there from the, you know, the rights that a criminal defendant has in criminal court, the constitutional protections that you have, which, yes, of course, in criminal court, in this country, it's not like it's just and fair and those constitutional rights are actually respected. But in immigration court, just honestly, the lawlessness, right? The way it's completely imbued, the process, step by step, with government discretion. You don't get due process. You don't get a hearing when the government accuses you of something, you know, accuses you of being a flight risk. The government is checking

• 22:01Speaker 00

  a box, right? There's no hearing, there's no evidence presented that you're a flight risk, you know, all of this stuff, and then stacking their discretion on top of discretion. The automatic stay, the discretionary stay, right? Like, they have all of these procedural tools, essentially to do whatever they want, right? And then immigration judges to just green light everything, rubber stamp everything, and that's the process. I want to make one more, one more note before we go to the next question, which is, we're talking about ICE, and that is the government institution that is doing this. I think that a lot of listeners, a lot of people, the public at large, when you hear ICE, you of course think about ICE officers, right? That these are officers, federal agents, you know, who are going out

• 22:43Speaker 00

  on the street kidnapping people, putting them in ICE detention, and then, you know, those are, you know, it's ICE, you know, officers too, who are, you know, jailers at these ICE detention facilities, this kind of thing. But when we're talking about in court, I just want to make the point that ICE has lawyers too. We're talking about lawyers making these arguments, and these are ICE attorneys. So it's not just kind of like, I don't know, I just want to make that point to just sort of illuminate, like, who ICE is and how this, how this system works, is that it's not just sort of like police officers. It's not just law enforcement out on the street doing this violence. It is turned around in this institution and by the government, and lawyers doing it too

• 23:27Speaker 00

  in court, lawyers who represent ICE.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  I think you're making really, really great. I'm so glad you're uplifting this. Just, you know, immigration court has a reputation of being called a kangaroo court, right? Immigration court. Sometimes tends to be biased, unfair, predetermined, right? To just deny cases even when folks have like really valid asylum claims. They've provided so much evidence to like prove up their claims rather than, you know, providing what you just said, like an actual fear hearing for really high stakes matters, right? These are folks who are like in terms of court trying to make sure they don't get deported or that they are able to get released from, you know, illegal ICE confinement. And so, yeah, I just wanted to uplift what you just said, just in terms of how it it

• 24:14Speaker 01

  is very different how immigration court functions as, you know, in stark contrast to like federal habeas, where we can make arguments about, you know, constitutional arguments about First Amendment rights and we are limited in immigration court to make those those same arguments. Just to go back in terms of like, who is ICE? I think, yeah, we what we see in the media is, you know, masked officers wearing plain clothing and, yeah, and are quite literally terrorizing our everyday community and neighbors. Not even in this moment, but honestly, historically, they have been doing this.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, for decades.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  For decades, but we're seeing just in the current, you know, authoritarian regime, a really heightened level of this, where even just ordinary US citizens who are protesting ICE in the current moment are facing threats of, you know, federal prosecution. And so, yeah, I think it is important to take a step back to be like, who is ICE? Yes, they have, you know, enforcement power to like arrest and and detain communities. But like you said, there also are attorneys in court who represent ICE and, you know, they're kind of doing that enforcement, right?

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Deciding whether folks should be deported or not in court. I don't know, Emma, if there's anything else you want to add?

• 25:28Speaker 02

  No, no, I think that I think that was perfectly said and I would just uplift something that Rhiannon mentioned was that they are part of, they work for a system and and and that's exactly what it is. It's a system. You know, it's not just a few lone bad officers or agents or, you know, like.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Or just Donald Trump.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly, exactly. Or just, you know, one president or one immigration judge. It's a system that's working exactly how it was designed and intended to work. And these agencies, these lawyers, these judges, they are simply, you know, they're they're carrying out the goals of the system.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Um, so I think it's helpful, that perspective.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  To center Laka in all of this, of like, how her case has been unfolding, I mean, I think the huge, huge injustice is just a disproportionate burden that has been put on Laka to prove she's not a danger or a flight risk in comparison to honestly, the little to no work the government has been doing to keep her confined, like we just said, checking a box to block immigration judges' order to have her released on bond. And they're quite literally just throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks in immigration court. And they've already have conceded, actually, in her second bond hearing, that she does not pose a danger to the community. And after, you know, Laka was forced to provide declarations from every single family member that she provided money

• 26:52Speaker 01

  to, to basically prove that she gave them money to help them survive all the different difficulties that we talked about earlier, they then abandoned that claim after, you know, wrongly insinuating that, you know, her attendance at the protests outside the gates of Columbia University and giving support to loved ones somehow implicated supposed danger. So now where we are, I mean, in terms of immigration court, after they've abandoned their claim that she's not in danger, is this very flimsy flight risk argument that was really a non-issue before, and that's what they're hanging on right now to keep her confined.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we've talked about the federal habeas and the immigration case, like, moving simultaneously. What's at stake in the immigration case? Like, what, if the government does what it wants to do, what happens to Laka?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  I think when I think about what's at stake for Le Cott and for all of us, right? I think my my initial like reaction, my my initial gut is to ask, what isn't at stake? For Le Cott, quite literally, everything is at stake for her, from her liberty, right? Her like her her right to live, her right to live freely, free from the shackles of our government, both physically and metaphorically, her ability to protest, her her ability to be reunited with her family and her community members, her ability to be reunited with her mother, who she holds so close to her heart, particularly after they were already separated for so many years after her parents divorce.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  You know, continued confinement imposes significant and and irreparable harm to Le Cott. Um, you know, not only just the continued loss of liberty and separation from her family and community, but thinking about how her confinement harms other people, like her family members, especially like her mother and brother, who she's the caretaker for. So just thinking about like months and months and months of confinement, lost time, this, these are things the government will never be able to give back to Le Cott, right? She was working like in the middle of starting her own business. She was learning to play the oud, she was, you know, spending time with family, friends, community. These are things that nobody will ever be able to give back to Le Cott.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  So that's everything that's lost and continues to be at stake for Le Cott. For us, you know, similarly, for everybody else listening, right? Like, why should anybody else care about Le Cott, right? Or her story or her case? I think first and most importantly, Le Cott's case is important to everyone because caring about Palestinians, caring about the plight of the Palestinian people is part of our shared humanity. That's first and foremost, and then and really the message I want to like center and uplift here, like you should care about Palestinians and about Palestine, and you should care about Le Cott because it is a basic part of our humanity.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Secondly, I would say like what the Trump administration has done and continues to do to Laqat doesn't just affect her, right? It doesn't just affect one person. It implicates all of us. Because we should all be alarmed by our government's willingness to punish and censor voices advocating for Palestine. Because while today it's Palestine, tomorrow it could be environmental justice. It could be labor rights. It could be voting rights. It could be any other movement for change. And while today it might be non-citizens, tomorrow it could be all of us. And those are reasons why everybody should care about what's happening to Laqat.

• 30:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's no ceiling on this. There's no ceiling on repression. There's no ceiling on violence that is doled out by the government, right?

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  The, the, the ceiling has to be imposed, it has to be forced actually by the people. Because without a ceiling, okay, Laqat doesn't have due process. The government says she sent money to people we don't like, whatever it is, right? She poses a danger. And we're talking about this whole time that she doesn't, there is no like meaningful opportunity to fight that as they just make their procedural decisions over and over again. Okay, well, tomorrow, whatever organization you donated to, Ahmed, whatever organization you donated to Peter, my co-host on the podcast, right? The government doesn't like it. Okay, but this is why due process is important, right? This is why we should care about what's happening. Because there's no ceiling on it. It doesn't stop unless it's forced to stop.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  I totally agree with Ahmed, like in terms of this idea that, you know, our collective liberation depends on Palestinian liberation. Like every struggle against oppression and injustice is intertwined. As Ahmed just said, it's not about Palestinian rights today. It could be environmental justice. It can be labor rights. And I think the crackdown on Palestinian speech is, is at the tip of the spear. It's a testing ground for silencing dissent. And we've seen right now those floodgates already open in terms of the administration punishing.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Anything that quite honestly just viewpoints it doesn't like, you know, there is an executive order and all these presidential memos that have come out that have basically normalized punishing quote unquote hostile viewpoints. And it's really just anything that challenges the government's policies or authorities. And we've seen this quite literally in terms of labeling Antifa as a domestic national security threat to what I talked about earlier of just federally prosecuting ordinary US citizens for attending a protest against ICE. And so what we're seeing in the current moment is, you know, executive overreach, power grabbing in the form of terrorizing our neighbors and community members through active violence,

• 32:46Speaker 01

  you know, perpetuated by the military and ICE raids in our streets. And so I think just to take a step back and zooming out, you know, it's not only about Laqah. I think Laqah's case exposes the brutality of the government's broader agenda of mass confinement and deportation, a system that generates revenue, right? It's a for-profit system of immigration confinement. And so I think connecting the dots to, you know, to Laqah's story, it's not only about Palestine, it's also, you know, her Palestinian identity, the surveillance that happened as a result of that. And it has to do also with just zooming out the government's just really, really aggressive agenda of trying to mass deport and confine anyone.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, you just mentioned surveillance and, and that reminds me of like this other huge arm, this other huge part of the machine of the repression campaign of authoritarianism, which is that it's not just ICE, it's not just ICE raiding apartment buildings, it's not just ICE, you know, knocking down the door of a family, a neighbor, it's not just ICE, you know, pulling somebody literally off the street, but also a massive surveillance infrastructure that allows them to like hone in on the targets that they're wanting to target. Can you talk about like the surveillance process that, that happened in Laqah's case?

• 34:14Speaker 00

  And which is obviously like demonstrative of a much wider project?

• 34:19Speaker 02

  I appreciate that you bring up government surveillance. Because I think that it's had a really significant role and in LeKot's case, but not just LeKot, right? And many of the other organizers and protesters who are similarly situated and targeted by the government. But generally, right? Like, thinking about how our government in our country for decades historically has surveilled our communities, Palestinians, Muslims, people of color. And, you know, for LeKot, the same thing has happened here. And the consequences have included really invasive and abusive government surveillance, not just of LeKot, but of her community.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  So of LeKot, of her family, of her Palestinian community members in Patterson, New Jersey, they were all surveilled. Prior to her confinement, DHS agents, the Department of Homeland Security, visited her mother's home in Patterson. They took a photo of a sign that said Palestine on the family's front porch. And they actually used that as evidence in immigration court to the point of proving dangerousness. And in that visit, they interrogated other, you know, family and friends in Patterson. They questioned her mother.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Her mom is a US citizen, by the way.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Her mom is a US citizen, exactly right. And, you know, it became clear that they were surveilling and sort of, you know, tracking payments and transfer, like monetary transfer she had made. So, you know, LeKot's confinement is part of a broader government crackdown on Palestinian rights advocacy that follows extensive government surveillance of her and her community in New Jersey. And, you know, I think the government and administration is not targeting LeKot just because they want to repress speech it doesn't like, but also because LeKot's Palestinian. And I think government surveillance is sort of integral in that. It's no coincidence that, you know, in terms of the wave of protesters and organizers

• 36:15Speaker 02

  that were abducted by the Trump administration have included Palestinians. So like Mahmoud Khalil and Mosin Madawi. You know, I think, and including LeKot, they're all being used as ways to chill speech and to show like, this is what happens when you, you know, organize and speak up for your people.

• 36:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and as Palestinians and other immigrant communities know, this massive post 9/11 surveillance apparatus that was erected in the United States, it's now been used for decades to target people from countries that the US doesn't like, or people who are saying things that the US government doesn't like, for decades, honestly, even before 9/11, but more acute and constantly intensifying like since then.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. What we're seeing in the current moment is just added like a new touch, right? Of like a new element of like crackdown on like repressive speech specifically on Palestine.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, we know it well. So we mentioned that Laqah is currently held in an ICE detention facility in North Texas. Do you know anything about like what it's like on the inside? What these conditions are inside that detention facility?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  The kind of conditions that are in, you know, at the detention center where Laqah is, I think it's not unique to her. It's a system designed to essentially break the human spirit and to wear people down. So I think for the listeners, just, you know, you can imagine what it would feel like to be abducted by the government and to be forced into an overcrowded detention center, thousands of miles away from your family, from your community, along with hundreds of other women, in Laqah's case, who are all trying to make sense of their future, right? Anxieties are off the roof about not only being possibly deported to a country that you've actively fled, but now in this administration,

• 38:06Speaker 01

  the risk of being put on a plane to a third country where you've never even lived in, where you could face harm, including death. So now, add to that the conditions of confinement, where it's freezing cold, it's hard to sleep, you have zero privacy, there's barely any nutritious and healthy meals, you're isolated from your family and friends, you don't really have access to the, you know, the tablets, which is how, you know, you're able to speak to people on the outside, and you're just stuck in a place where you only get a small window during the day to take in a little bit of sunlight. And so- I think what's been um really humbling to see, right, in terms of seeing how the

• 38:47Speaker 01

  conditions have been really difficult for her is just this seeing spiritual resistance as liberation. Laka is a really, really deeply spiritual person. Even, you know, when she turned herself into ICE after being surveilled for a week, she didn't take anything else with her that day but her Quran, which she still has to this day. And so I think in terms of, you know, obstacles she's had, like in terms of her religious liberties and inside, it's because ICE knows that, you know, prayer is a really core source of strength and survival for folks. And so I think for Laka, it's been, yeah, just really inspiring and humbling how that's been like the constant for her, right?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Despite all the difficulties, every kind of prayer and moment of spiritual connection that God is able to carve out for herself is an act of liberation. And so um I think that piece is really important, just of how she's been trying to survive the really difficult of uh difficult conditions of confinement. And then also just watching her advocate not only for herself but for other women in the inside, right? She's recognized and she's told us that because she speaks English, it gives her a special access and privilege that other women don't have. And she's used that to uplift the dignity that they and honestly, all of us have. And so I think Laka's experience reflects um the cruelties that defined carceral systems

• 40:12Speaker 01

  generally and that warrant their abolition.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  I've never met Laka, obviously, and I am so proud of Laka. And she is so representative of a Palestinian spiritual and and political resistance, I think, to oppression, which is that.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  You oppress me, you confine me, you detain me, you do genocide on my people. I am insisting in front of all of that, that I am a free person and that I am a person with dignity and I am a person with autonomy and I will exercise it in whatever conditions you put me in. And I don't want to cry.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Oh, you make me emotional too. Honestly, yeah, it's, it's waterworks when.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Every conversation with her like moves me.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  And, um, and so it makes me so proud. Um, it makes me so proud and, um, so honored. And I'm deeply, deeply honored to have both of you on Five Four today to speak about La Quat, to talk about the work that you're doing. It is so, so important. True freedom fighters in, in the legal sense. So thank you so much. But before we go, I want to turn to, you know, we talked about why people should care. Like, why should you care about La Quat, this, this one person who is in ICE detention right now? And I think we, I, I think you, Amal and Sadaf too, like really illuminated how La Quat and others are canaries in the coal mine, right?

• 41:57Speaker 00

  They tell us something about the society that we live in, the government regime that we live under and what problems, what problems we, we face and, and should be organizing to resist and, and overcome. And so you should care about La Quat as someone who is showing us all of these things, but you should also care about the Canary itself and just caring about our, our shared humanity. So for the people listening who care about La Quat and, and care about these issues, are there, is there anything that they can do? Do you have any calls to action to, to share with listeners to advocate on behalf of La Quat?

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, you know, we, the legal team were fighting hard for La Quat's liberty in federal court. And, you know, her immigration attorney likewise similarly is fighting hard for her liberty. And, you know, we are seeing the role of the courts as particularly crucial in a climate like this to, to curb abuses of executive power. But we know and acknowledge and recognize that the law alone is not the only vehicle for seeking justice and accountability. And so if Laka were here right now with us and we were to ask her, you know, what should people do to support you? What should people do to uplift your story and uplift your case? She would have one very clear answer. She would say, take to the streets. Protest for Gaza.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Demand an end to the genocide. Advocate for freedom and liberation of all Palestinians. She would tell all of us to do what she has been wrongfully prevented from doing for the past eight months. She would ask us to raise our voices and to stand in solidarity through action.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you so much, Amel, for uplifting that because I think that's just core to who Laka is. She's always, whenever we talk to her, wanting to use her story to center her people, what's going on in Gaza, the ongoing occupation. And so if the call of call of action was to come from Laka, it would be that. From the legal team end, right? I think like, um, Amel said, you know, the law alone doesn't save, well, it won't save us. And so we have to use all the other different types of strategies together. And one thing that we've been doing very closely, um, you know, is combining the power of organizing and collective action

• 44:20Speaker 01

  um, with organizers who are embedded in like the Free Palestine Movement, the Abolish ICE Movement. And so, you know, Laka has a relentless community of organizers and allies, not only in New Jersey, but all the way to Texas. And so for the past few months, we've been working really closely um, in trying to combine our legal strategy with organizing on the ground. And so one concrete call of action that we've worked closely with, um, with the organizers is policy advocacy. Right now, we need to keep pressuring our friendly political electeds. So there's a Free Laka Campaign Petition Letter that's circulating at the moment for elected officials to act in New Jersey and Texas to publicly call for her release.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  We're trying to get at least 10,000 signatures, but already at 3,000 after just releasing the petition. Um, you know, we've been seeing local phone banking campaigns happening, which has been really inspiring of folks just calling their representatives to demand her release. And so I think together, like the petition, um, alongside the phone banking and just calling the elected, it shows strength in numbers regarding public pressure. And so we need all these things to happen at the same time. We need people to keep protesting. We need folks to keep putting pressure on electeds. And we need people to keep amplifying her story. And so I'd also just put in a plug, you know, like she has, um,

• 45:47Speaker 01

  on Instagram, the Free La Caordia page, which again, has some of the beautiful statements that Amel said in terms of like her writing. And I think just in terms of, yeah, amplifying her story. I think that's also another way for folks to plug in and to learn more about her.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, and we will definitely link the, the Instagram page, the petition in the show notes. If everybody listening right now to this interview signs that petition, it will be far past 10,000 signatures. And so I am asking 54 listeners, if you are listening, you click the link in the show notes, you sign that petition. It takes 15 seconds and we will be past that campaign's goal of 10,000 signatures on that petition. So Sadaf Hassan, Amar Thabate, lawyers on the team for La Caordia. I cannot thank you enough for joining us today. I cannot thank you enough for the work you're doing. I'm so very grateful and honored. Thank you for joining us.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, if I could just end with some words from La Ca, which I think really capture her. It's something that she said to us, which is, we are Palestinian. We find joy in everything.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Dude, I'm on my period. I'm sorry.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Girl, shut up. Even if you weren't on your period, you would be allowed to cry and it would be okay and totally valid. You do not need a reason. She's such an inspiring person, honestly. Like, um, she's, yeah, she's, she's amazing. She, she gives me strength and I'm not the one in confinement. Like, like we're supposed to be a strength, a source of strength for her. And it's like often reversed.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Don't tell my homies I'm soft.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  All right, folks. Thank you for listening. We are going to put some links in the show notes of this episode for you to check out, for you to sign that petition. You can follow the Free Le Qua Cordia campaign on Instagram, @FreeLeQuaCordia. That's Free L-E-Q-A-A-K-O-R-D-I-A. And definitely hit the link for signing her petition down in the show notes. We are also going to share a story in the show notes as well, a story that NPR recently did in which you can hear Le Qua, in her own words, talking about what's happened. Next week,

• 48:16Speaker 00

  a very relevant case, DHS v. Therasa Giam. It's a case about the habeas rights of immigrants who are subject to removal proceedings. It's an old case, but it has a lot of implications for today. Follow us on all social media, @54Pod. Subscribe on Patreon, patreon.com/54pod, all spelled out. Free Le Qua Cordia. We'll see you next week.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Five to Four is presented by Prolog Projects. This episode was produced by Dustin DeSoto. Leon Nefok provides editorial support. Our website was designed by Peter Murphy. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at Chips NY, and our theme song is by Spatial Relations. If you're not a Patreon member, you're not hearing every episode. To get exclusive Patreon-only episodes, discounts on merch, access to our Slack community, and more, join at patreon.com/54pod.