How To Build A Personal Brand Quickly With Dain Walker

Building a personal brand can feel uncomfortable. You know putting yourself out there could open doors, attract opportunities, and grow your business, but self-doubt, overthinking, and the fear of being judged can make it hard to take that first step.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:45Speaker 00

  Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, like impressions. But then we don't see revenue. LinkedIn has a word for that: bull spend. Instead, you can get the highest ROAS of major ad networks with LinkedIn ads. Cut the bull spend, advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/MBAShow. Terms apply. I'm about to sit down with the branding master, Dane Walker. He is the author of The 90 Day Brand Plan and the host of the Agency Podcast, a podcast that absolutely has blown up recently with over 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube. We're going to talk about a lot, especially when it comes to how to develop your own

• 1:30Speaker 00

  personal brand, get out of your own way, and make sure your brand helps you with everything you do, including your marketing and your sales. He's worked with big brands like Nutrition Warehouse, Culture Kings, and the very funny Andrew Schultz. He's going to share with you the same exact strategies he used in helping build their brands so that your brand is better by the end of this episode. Let's jump right into that conversation with Dane Walker.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Welcome back to the $100 MBA Show. I'm your host, Omar Zenhome, where I deliver practical business lessons three times a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, to help you start, grow, and scale your business.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Hey, if this show has helped you in any way, it would be amazing if you dropped us a quick review on whatever app you're using right now to listen to this podcast. It helps me and my team bring you new episodes every week. And more importantly, more entrepreneurs will be able to discover the podcast so you can help someone else start their journey.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Dane Walker, so good to have you here, man.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Omar, good to see you, my friends.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  I love it. I love the fact that you're here in Sydney and you're so good at what you do.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Amazing. I want to start with the fact that you, to me, are one of the best people when it comes to branding. And I'm sure you get a lot of people that come to you that want to work on their personal brand, but they think they have a marketing problem. How many, in terms of like, give me a percentage, how many? You've helped thousands of people. So out of a percentage, how many people actually have a marketing problem? And how many people have a branding problem?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I think oftentimes, people look at branding, marketing, advertising, and sales and mash them into like one big Play-Doh bowl, but they're actually different colors of Play-Doh, if you will. I think when you look at branding, for me, branding is really the experience, the feeling you get in your gut, how something is perceived, how you associate it to belonging to something. Whereas, marketing for me is the framework or the structure to make something happen. So the best analogy I could really put together for people to understand the difference between all of these systems is that, let's say, you're driving down the road and you see a big billboard for a Mercedes dealership. And let's say there's a new C-Class car.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  That's an ad. The advertisement is out in the world talking to you. You might see the ad through Meta or Google or like Pixel Shop somewhere that says, hey, there's a product that exists that you should buy. In that advertisement, there are branding assets, colors, fonts, typography, logos. And those elements are there to create an association. So you might go, wow, that looks prestigious and sophisticated and cool. Whereas if you see a Red Bull billboard or ad, you might go, wow, that's like human potential pioneering and rebellious. Whereas even if you have the same product, let's take Virgin Airlines and Qantas. The associations I'd have with Qantas are heritage, national pride, and Australia's

• 4:31Speaker 01

  home.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  And losing your bags.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and losing your bags, of course. And terrible customer service. And then if you look at Virgin, it's the exact same product at the exact same location with the same color palette, the same, everything's the same. Like, it's the same plane and the same process and system and everything. But the brand feels totally different because the association with the logo and with Richard Branson is that this is a brand of entertainment, fun, and rebelliousness, and kind of youth. So these associations are carried through advertisements. That's brands. The advertisement itself is the frame where the brand's experienced, typically out in the world. Now, back to the analogy with Mercedes, if you go into the dealership because you see the ads, now you're in their marketing system, right?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  You walk through the dealership, even though it's a retail experience, it's a marketing system. You walk on the car lot, the product's sitting there with price tags, hoping that you buy the car. And maybe you ask a sales rep, take me for a drive in one of these cars so I can experience it. You're in the sales process in the marketing structure or system. So the fact you went to the dealership is because of the marketing system. The marketing is like the conductor that sits behind all the advertisements, that uses the branding to pull you in to buy the product. So whether you're Alex Hormozi selling books or seminars, or you're Mercedes selling cars, or you're an airline trying to get people to buy your ticket instead of the competitor's ticket, the thing that really separates people is the brand.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  So when you ask the question, how many people mistake marketing for branding and how they know the difference? You can't just rely on a marketing system devoid of branding and expect to win. You need these systems to work together like cylinders in a car engine. They all have to work together in simultaneous orchestra, if you will.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  So would you say somebody that's marketing their business, marketing their products, without even spending time on working on their brand, are they wasting their money?

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Not always. I've met plenty of entrepreneurs that make 10, 20, 30 million dollars without really making an effort to build brands. Sometimes people can be really great at logistics, or they have a really potent network, or they're in a market that has a deficit. So for example, if you're the only manufacturer that makes toothpicks and no other competitor makes toothpicks, maybe you don't need to build a brand because you're the only toothpick factory in the country. I think it's like glitter is, there's like two companies that sell all the glitter in the world. They don't really need to do a lot of branding. So there are these outliers where they don't do a lot of branding in the way we know branding. They still have a brand. They still have a reputation. People still trust these companies. But essentially, for the most of us, we don't have a logistical moat around our brand that allows us to do something that others can't.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  If you're in an industry where you're competing and other people are offering the same thing or near the same thing or an adjacent thing to what you're offering, if you're not investing in branding, you're not tuning your car to be as fast as possible. So let's look at this from the analogy of a racetrack. If you're building a vehicle which is representing your company, one would assume that you would want to have the most efficient, fuel-efficient, and fast, and maintainable, and secure and safe vehicle on the track. If your vehicle's not safe, you're running a risk of not even being in the race. If it's too slow, you can't keep up with the competitors in the market. If it's not cool enough, maybe the fans might not buy much and cheer the brand on. So let's imagine the racetrack analogy. Let's imagine you're building your own vehicle, which is your company.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Why would you not want to have a beautiful design? Why would you not want to have the cleanest vehicle with the best methods and the best processes? I think for me, if you want to build a company that's mature, that can fight in the market, that the customers care about, you should look at the design. Why? Because it's communication. If you want to sell as much as possible, it's really the art of communication. And if you think about a logo, that's a piece of communication. A color palette is a piece of communication. A tagline, even the font you choose. So imagine I had a piece of paper, and on that piece of paper, we use like old-school type, like a typewriter type. And I type out the words, "I'll be waiting for you."

• 8:43Speaker 01

  It might be like, oh, it's a poem. If I get a crayon and like scratch it on the page and create a different looking font and says, "I'll be waiting for you" in big, bold letters, now that's like a death threat all of a sudden, right? So like, just changing the font, that's an extreme example, but like if you just-

• 8:59Speaker 00

  No, but it's a good one.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Right. If you look at different fonts, like some fonts are a bit heavy and funky, other fonts are like slim and elegant. Fonts, typography, even like negative space, how you curate photography, these are all just signals that associate with people viewing it in an immediate heartbeat, like, hey, we're kind of rebellious, or we're kind of sophisticated, or we're kind of cool. Most brands don't really have a personality in their associations. They tend to rely on some pretty basic associations. So for anyone listening right now, what I'm about to say might offend you, so let's just put a big warning label on that. So these are the associations that everyone brings up in a workshop. So not to impress anyone listening, but to impress upon the magnitude of this.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  I've done thousands of workshops across the world for about seven years. And something I've noticed is that in a brand workshop, the same things get said in every workshop.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  I can't wait to hear this.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Right? And the associations are usually this. When I ask the client, like, who are we as a brand? Why should the customer choose us? Why are we fantastic? The resounding responses, almost always, well, we're trustworthy and we care about the client because we have integrity, and we're honest, and we're authentic, and we want to do innovation in this industry, and we have the best products. And it's, there's nothing wrong with any of those things.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  What everybody's saying.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but those associations are benign. They're not interesting at all. The problem with being benign is that people won't choose you if someone else is exciting. Okay, let's use an example here. So what's your team member's name again?

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Josh.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Okay, Josh. Josh is behind the camera here. Now, Omar, if you raise your arm and tickle your own armpit, is that funny?

• 10:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  That's pretty benign. But if Josh, if I got you to come over here and tickle Omar's armpit, that would be a violation, right? But the idea of it is kind of funny. If you actually got up right now, you'd be like, well, it's kind of inappropriate. It's kind of appropriate. You need your brand to not be benign and to not be a violation, unless that's what you're going for. It needs to sit somewhere in between. It needs to evoke an association.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Josh's got to use a feather.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, use a feather. Right? Yeah. If you used a feather, that would be kind of super weird and whimsical.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  But those associations will be different, right? But it's a weird analogy, but I think what people tend to do with these associations is they tend to just pick the thing that's kind of weirdly safe.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, vanilla.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And it's not interesting. And, you know, there's an ancient Chinese proverb that says if the nail that sticks out gets hammered. And people read that like a negative, but I'm like, well, you want to be the brand that sticks out and gets hammered with leads and attention. If you want attention, stick out.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  So, yeah, with these associations, what we spend our time doing is we work with clients to figure out, well, what other associations could we build? And there's a quick exercise, if anyone cares to do this.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Get these associations. Okay. So let's do it with your podcast.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Real quick. So number one is if this podcast were a car, what car would it be and why?

• 12:01Speaker 00

  That's a good question. Probably Lexus.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Lexus?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  What color?

• 12:08Speaker 00

  It would be black.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Black and what model?

• 12:12Speaker 00

  LX470, which is like the four-wheel drive.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Okay, very specific. I like that. And what message are you trying to send? Let's say you wrap that car in this brand. What would you hope people look at and go, oh, that brand is kind of what?

• 12:24Speaker 00

  It's practical, it's reliable, and it's actually a little bit upscale and thoughtful.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of like a little sophisticated. Look cool, like how you dress, you're always dressed very sharp, very elegant, but there's a bit of an edge. You have a sneaker with a suit and a plain shirt. So there's a sophistication to you, but then there's like a down-to-earth, like relatable, not humbleness, but like a cool factor, right? You're a cool dude and you're funny and you're like with it. So there's a few associations. Let's do another one. If you were a drink, doesn't have to be alcoholic.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  If I were a drink, probably maybe like some sort of electrolyte drink, like a sports drink.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Okay, why?

• 13:03Speaker 00

  It has use, it hydrates you, you feel better afterwards.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Epic, okay. And then if you were a movie character or anime character or some fictional character or superhero?

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Jackie Chan.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Why Jackie Chan?

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Cause Jackie Chan's willing to do what it takes to get the shot.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Break the ribs, jump off a balcony.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  And lots and lots of reps. He's got like thousands of movies.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  And you do that and you're sure. You like to put in a lot of reps into everything you do. All right, we'll do one more. Let's say, okay, if you were a song, what song would you be in, why?

• 13:34Speaker 00

  That's a tough one, because I love music.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  So start with a genre, then maybe pick an artist and then come down to a song.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  This is a tough one. Cause I'm a huge Michael Jackson fan, so I have to go with Michael Jackson. And if I had to choose a song from him, it would be Man in the Mirror because it's self-reflection.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. So then if you put those analogies together, you can start to create a mood board.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  So we've got some photos of Alexis, got some photos of Michael Jackson on stage, Jackie Chan. We started thinking about Man in the Mirror. Like you start to put these pieces together. I know that sounds a little weird, but what we do in these workshops with these clients is we start to pull this material together and then they kind of reveal their associations. So when we ask ourselves, okay, what two, three words exist in this montage of material that explains who you are? It's not trust. It's not usually like honesty or authenticity. There's something else.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  So then we look at that material and go, okay, cool. Like, why isn't this showing up on the website? If this is the energy of the brand, if this is the aura, like, is this coming through the photography? Is this coming through the font? Is this coming through the content?

• 14:35Speaker 00

  On your social media feed?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, on the social media feed, in your emails. I want to see you like kicking a table over and like screaming. And then there's some music in the background and then you're saying something hilarious like Jackie Chan would. So I think if you think about, as silly as this is, if anyone sits down and just does this, if you were a car, what would you be? If you were a drink? If you were a character or a movie star? If you were a song? If you were a sport? If you were a place? If you were a hotel chain? You know, you could kind of do this with anything. If you're a household object, doesn't matter. Just write down six or seven of these things, write down the associations. And here's the trick with the associations for anyone who wants to take us to the next step is, are there any visuals, colors? Is there textures? Like, can you feel things? Is it grainy and textural or smooth and polished?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Is it bright? Is it dim? Is it daytime? Is it nighttime? Are there smells? Are there sounds? Is it loud? Is it quiet? Is it messy? Is it calm? So you just start to look for this material and then just look at your website and look at your content and go, it's not there.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So the client usually realizes in a moment of like 20, 30 minutes of doing these exercises, like, man, we're off brands. We don't have a brand. It's like, yeah, we need a personality. You can still do serious business and still be trustworthy and still do these cool things, but have some energy to it. Because if you look at a brand like Harley-Davidson, they're not trying to be trustworthy. People trust that they're like some of the best motorcycles in the world and everything they do is kind of rugged and masculine.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and freedom and open road. Yeah, all that.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Because trust is a result of you relating to someone.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  So you're a funny dude. If you meet someone else who's funny, you're going to have more trust for that funny person you met than someone who's maybe a bit stiff.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I have a hard time getting along with people that don't have a sense of humor.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  But I love that exercise because it takes people outside the mundane, day-to-day business talk.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  And gets them to think and be a little bit more playful and to just have fun a little bit. And that brings the personality out.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  And I love what you just did and I think that's an amazing exercise for everybody to do. Don't just listen to it, do it, guys. Take out a paper and pen and rewind and go through it because that's one of the best pieces of advice I've seen when it comes to branding.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yes. And this, you know, this is something that we find brings energy into the room. So there's a quote we have a rival and it's that, what does it mean to be creative? For me, the definition of what makes something creative, because some people think to themselves, I'm not a creative person for whatever reason. I believe everyone's creative, especially when we're children. It's just kind of beating out of us usually, right? You know, when you're a kid, you're imagining stuff and creating stuff all the time. So our definition of creativity is just intelligence having fun. So when people come into workshops and they're building a brand, it's serious. They're like, we need to make money. We need to go to Leeds. We've got to pay bills and do overheads. And it's like, yeah, but we can have some fun at the same time.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and why not? Why not do it and have fun? Because otherwise you're miserable. Why do you want to business like that? Awesome.

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• 19:01Speaker 00

  You've worked with so many companies and so many brands. One of the things I noticed on your website is that you have a testimonial from Andrew Schultz, the hilarious comedian. I want to read his testimonial because it's absolutely hilarious. He says, "The difference between a rat and a squirrel is branding. Dane will turn your rat into the most beautiful squirrel you've ever seen." What did you learn from working with Andrew?

• 19:21Speaker 01

  I love Andrew. Yeah, so three years ago, I got a DM from a comedian. His name is Mark Gagnon and he's a cool cat. He's based in Brooklyn in New York and he's like, dude, love your [BLEEP]. Can we connect sometime? I was like, sure. And I remember like getting on a call and I had blue light glasses at the time. These big, thick, cool, blue light glasses. And he gets on a call, he's like, dude, he's like making fun of me immediately. I can't remember what he said, but he was like roasting me. I'm like, man, this guy's rad. And he's like, hey, man, I edit the Flagrant Podcast with Andrew Schultz and Akash Singh. And he's like, hey, man, like we want to work on the branding for the show. And I was like, for sure. I remember asking him like, what does Andrew want?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  He goes, he just feels like YouTube has YouTube-iness, like where the thumbnails were kind of YouTube-ish. And he said that Andrew doesn't care if he gets less views, but he wants the brand to be cooler. And this is around the time, if you watched the Flagrant Podcast with Andrew Schultz, he went from the old set to the new set, like the subway station set. And they were like, we need to figure out like what the brand identity should be. Anyways, long story short, we started working with Andrew. He's a blast to work with, man. He knows exactly what he wants, the way he wants it, but he's just a funny dude. He came to Australia with Mark and I remember I bought tickets the first night. And I text Mark, I was like, hey, man, like great show. He's like, dude, come to the green room. And I remember like freaking out because I'd worked with Andrew online, but now it's like, oh my God, I'm going to the green room.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Andrew Schultz is going to be there. And I went in there and the dude's like super humble, came over to me, gave me a hug and was like, man, thank you so much for all the help on the branding, like it's sick. I gave him a jacket and then Andrew looks at me and goes, what are you doing now? I was like, uh, I don't have any plans. He's like, you come with us. So then I'm like hanging out with Andrew Schultz and his posse for the night and getting to know the guy a little better. And he said something really prolific to me that really stuck with me. He said to me, we're on this boat in the harbor in Sydney and we're hanging out, talking. And I asked him, I was like, hey, man, like what is like, what is comedy? Like, what even is it? Cause he's a deep, deep guy. So like you see him on stage, he's saying unhinged, like degenerate, like jokes non-stop. But then offstage, the second he gets into the green room, it's business.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Like his team huddle around him for about an hour and they're debriefing every joke, every beat, every minute. Everything has a meticulous feedback loop. And I was like, dude, these guys are executing. He's calling shots, he's telling his videographer what to edit. He's like, this clip needs to go out tonight. Like he's doing business. And then we're hanging out and then he's talking like this deep philosophy and I'm asking like deep philosophical questions. And he explained to me, he goes, Dane, when you're on stage. And you're a young comedian and you're bombing nonstop. What happens is you go out on stage and you're just testing stuff because you don't know who you are. You don't know what your jokes are yet. You're trying to figure out what's funny, what's not funny. Who am I? Am I funny? Can I make the career or not? This guy is drunk and hates me, but she's laughing way too hard. So he's like, it's just, it's just an intense environment.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  But he said, what happens is at the beginning, you're trying to make material that you hope the audience loves.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  And he said, inevitably the greats. And he said, not everyone gets to this point. They do what he phrases as finding their voice. So he's like, what you should do as a comedian, every time you go on stage, whether you're a content creator, a musician, uh, you know, a podcast or whatever. You should have the goal in your minds to poke another brick out of the metaphorical wall in front of you and reveal just a little bit more of yourself every time you go on stage.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  And I was like, wow. And he goes, eventually the wall comes down and you can just be yourself. And he said that that's been his experience in doing anything is if you want to be great at it, you have to go on this journey. But then he'll say the most unhinged insane thing, like the quote he's got from me, but he's deep.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  He's super deep.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Thoughtful and he has an interesting brain where he just knows how to recognize patterns. He knows how to teed a line to the very edge.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  I was gonna say like, he's so, such a good example of that branding thing you talked about where it's like, he's not vanilla, but he's also not going completely. He's, he's tight walking the line.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  He's right on the edge of violating constantly.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Uh, and sometimes he goes a little too far and he comes back and he fixes it. But I think that's where comedy has to live.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And I think that's honestly where any content creator needs to live.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  You gotta live on the edge of like, what's seen as acceptable because otherwise you're just gonna fit into the pack and you're never gonna have that moment where something's gonna really crack the, the internet.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  A thousand percent. And I always say the worst thing in business is being ignored. You know, most people, they live in the space where they don't offend anybody.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  But if you're not offending anybody, you're not really attracting your audience. You're not really showing people like, hey, this is who I'm for and who, this is what I'm against.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. And there's, there's a few things you can use to amplify your content. So if you want me to dive into that.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, please go ahead.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. So whatever you're doing, whether you're, you know, trying to podcast or you're trying to create a piece of material. Everything should be considered to be amplified using a couple of mechanisms. So here's a few of them. Number one is familiarity. Okay. So for example, we're talking about comedy because I know you love comedy.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  So like, you're like, dude, this is really relevant to me. This is familiarity. Like, I want to hear this story. Like, I care about these things. When you watch content on the feed, let's say you're a parent and you have a newborn and you're watching content of other parents who have newborns. That's just familiarity, just like we're in the same boat together, content. Then you have things like nostalgia. So like, remember when Nokia brick phones were a cool thing? We used to play.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Snake.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we used to play snake. We used to like make our own ringtones. You see that content, like, yeah, dude, I totally forgot about that. Then you have futurism. So this is gonna happen next and you'll see that happen with politics or marketing. There's always predictions of the future. Then you have inflammatory, people creating arguments, trying to trigger you or gaslight you. That's gonna get attention. Dangerous things, humorous things, weird things, mystical, esoteric things. Like you have to think if you're trying to get attention, you have to amplify it with a bit more than just trying to be trustworthy.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Humans like fireside stories. We like movies, we like music, we like drama. Like, put a bit of flair, a bit of theater into whatever you're doing in business. And that's all I'm saying. I, I understand that like business is about getting money. I totally get it, but like, you're gonna get way more attention if you understand the art of communication and how to make things interesting to, to consume.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, and lean into the parts of you that are a little bit different, a little bit unique. Whether it's your story, your background, your experiences, your failures. I think that that's a great advice.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  I want to shift gears a little bit. In the last couple of years, a lot of people have used AI to do their branding. What are your thoughts on people just trusting chat GPT or Claude to like come up with their logo or their branding kit?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I think there's a guest at my podcast who, who had the funniest way of phrasing this and his name's Frank Grief. And he said, um, you know, he calls it the AI slop cannon. And the unfortunate thing is if you put in a prompt and it spit something out, it's probably unless given really good instruction, it's gonna be a little benign. I don't have a problem with someone creating a logo in AI or using chat GPT or these systems to like build brand assets. I think it's a good thing that creativity is becoming commoditized and that more people have access to this. I like to think about, imagine someone logging into the internet for the first time and they're 18 and they want to build a business and they've got a little bit of pocket money and they want to create like, whatever the thing is that they want to create.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Get started.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Dude, awesome. Like they can punch a prompt in for free and get a logo and like, I've seen 12 year old kids do lawnmower logos and then go print the shirts out with their mom's credit card and then start a little lawnmower business. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like, kids couldn't really do this stuff like, uh, not too long ago. So I love the fact that creativity is becoming more accessible and people are utilizing these things. I think where it gets a little slippery is when big brands get a little lazy. Like if you've got a budget and you can build something like legitimate and you're trying to build a multimillion dollar business, maybe don't use AI.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Maybe just even if you use AI, like at least go talk to an expert or do some consulting because they might notice a few things about what you're doing that aren't that great. So oftentimes we get a lot of inquiries where someone's built a brand using AI. But the challenge is branding is so many skills stacked together. It's experiential skills. It's tactile packaging feeling skills. It's attention activation skills, marketing skills, copy skills. It's super difficult for most people to understand enough about these different art forms to curate a good taste, to then tailor something that the customer loves.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  So I don't want to sound like I'm bashing AI. I think it's cool.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  But it has limits.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  It has limits. And I think if you want to get the most out of it, and we use AI oftentimes behind the scenes to like help portray what a brand could look like for a client. We can do really cool stuff now with AI. I think you need to be mindful, like, how do you put more creative energy into something? So we call it soul crafting. When you're creating something and you're using intelligence, you're having fun, there's gonna be material. If you do anything, start there and then use AI.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Like use your own mind first. Like go talk to your own customers first. Go, go be a human and get something first to then give AI context.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Thousand percent.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Because then you'll get a better result and you'll probably get something that's a bit more curated for what you're trying to use it for.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. We, we talked earlier a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about the idea of like, AI does have a stench a little bit. Like you kind of can snuff it out.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  It's getting, it's getting better though.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  It is getting a lot better. But in the meantime, we're gonna play a little game. Okay. We like to play a few games here on the show.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  This game is called Spot the AI. So what we're gonna do is. Yeah, no worry about it all. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna show you a logo, a branding and we'll, we'll put this in post, don't worry. And you tell me if you think it's AI or it's human made.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Ready to go?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  I like it. Yeah, let's go.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  All right. This is a coffee roaster called Northbound.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  I'm going to say human.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Correct. This is an aerospace company.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  I'm going to say AI.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  It's actually human.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  That's human?

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  All right, one for one, it's okay. Or one win, one loss. There we go. Independent Australia, Independence Australia.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Independence Australia. This feels AI.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  It's actually human.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  It's just a bad logo. Wow.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  What about this branding kit going on?

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Definitely AI.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  It is AI.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  That's definitely AI. Very convoluted and trying too hard.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's over the top.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  And the last one, AI or human? This is a branding for a hot sauce.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Interesting. It feels AI to me again.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  You're right, AI.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, something feels a little off.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Not bad, not bad. Very good, Dean. It feels a little, you know, like doesn't have that personality.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Almost human.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love it. Thanks for playing along.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  We have another game coming up later, but I want to talk a little bit about when people are trying to build their brand or even like rebrand. Do you think it's easier to start from scratch or is it easier to rebrand?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  This is a really good question. I think it's always easier to start from scratch. Rebranding is actually hotter in many cases, especially if you have a really established brand. So, you know, two of the, probably three of the hottest rebrands, four actually, four of the hottest rebrands we did was Coach Kings. Simon was a star, like.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  He was so fun to work with and talk about someone who makes immediate decisions. I remember being on a call with Coach Kings, presenting a logo change, silence hits the room. Yep, sounds good. Let's lock it in. Okay. Like the brand had been around for 11 years and they're like, yep, let's move fast.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Let's go. But the challenge was like trying to make sure we understood everyone because in, inside their internal team, they had a lot of creatives and a lot of opinions. So that can always be difficult is when you go to an external company and say, hey, we have our own internal creators, but we want to outsource this. You can get a, some challenges with that sometimes. Yeah, when we recently worked with Mad Max, the entrepreneur who owns it, his name's Clovis, Cool Cat from California. And, um, he'd been around in the market for about 16 years, I believe. And they, they were really nervous to make changes because they're like, we, we don't want to go backwards. We want to go forward. So it can be quite a stressful thing for an entrepreneur to have retail frontage, signage, staff, employees, and then they're changing their logo.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  And they're adjusting their color palette and they're changing their packaging. So rebranding is always about what do we keep? What do we challenge the client to, to do away with? And what do we bring in? And the way we start the rebrand process is always, I sit down with the founder and I ask the question, do you have any sacred cows?

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  What are your sacred cows? Are we keeping the logo or are you open to changing it or are you opposed to changing it? He said, look, I think it'd be cool to explore it. And I'm like, okay, like, that's okay. We'll start there. Uh, what about the colors? Oh no, the colors need to stay. All right, that's fine. Fonts, yeah, we can change the fonts. All right, great. What about the mascot? Oh, we hate the mascot. Can we change the mascot? Okay, great. So you go through this list and you just literally ask them, is this a sacred cow? Are you open to changing it? Are you opposed to changing it? Are you excited to change it? Like, we want to get a, a rating on all this stuff. So then when we sit down and do a rebrands, it's a bit easier to go, okay, cool. Like stay away from the palette.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Maybe make a couple of suggestions sneakily. Uh, but let's start with the mascot. Let's get the client excited about the mascot. Then let's talk about fonts. So I think when you're doing a rebrand process with any company, whether you're working inside as a CMO or whatever, just make a checklist of literally everything and agree with it upfront.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  So then you're not working from ambiguity, you're working from a place of clarity. Building a brand from scratch is way easier than that. You basically sit down and go like, what do you want this to become? The challenge sometimes can be, well, we don't know.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  We need to work through that, but I'd find it a lot easier to build from scratch because you can kind of pull something that doesn't exist into reality. If you're good creatives and you've got a great team, that's a bit of an easier process than sometimes the bureaucracy or the internal structure or the belief systems of the team. Now, Nutrition Warehouse, this was the hardest one because I think thirty-eight odd staff members had the logo tattooed on them.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  What? That's a cult.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  So when we're like, we're gonna change the logo, the CEO was like, oh, man, people have this tattooed on them. I'm like, yeah, but that's kind of cool because they have the old logo.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  Legacy, yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Legacy, yeah, I like it, I like the phrase. And I remember him being really apprehensive about changing the logo, mainly because he was like, man, you know, this is gonna cost me like three point six million dollars in signage, right? I was like, yeah. He's like, you think it'll be worth it? I'm like, probably.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  He's like, all right, let's change the logo. So yeah, rebranding is tough, but I think if anyone's listening to this and wants to do it with a heritage brand that's been around for a decade.

• 34:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  You have to play homage. You can't do away with the past if people love the brand.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  You have to bring some of the essence forward. Otherwise, you can lose the respect of your clients.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  I love it. You remind me of a quote by Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods says, I can take somebody who's played golf all their life and make them a champion in five years. If I had five years with them, I can make them a champion. But if you've never played golf, I could do it in two years.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  And the whole idea is that you have to unlearn a lot of habits, a lot of things that you picked up along the way, weird thoughts or weird tendencies that you just inherited through the journey of your business and your brand. Do you ever have like a branding session and then they say like, pretty much everything's a sacred cow? And they're like, what are we doing here?

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have had that happen, but we always come back to the reason with, which is like, well, why are we here in the first place? We're not cool anymore. And we had one real estate we worked with and we went through and they said, we're open to everything. Then we started pitching stuff and then they said, we're not open to any of this. And we sat back down again and said, hang on, why are we here?

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Well, we want to be cool. Okay, but your brand's not currently cool. We know that.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  We have to make changes. Yeah, but we're afraid. We have to let go of the past, guys.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  We have to embrace the future. People have this fear that if they change their brand, they're gonna turn into a werewolf and like scare away all their customers. If you do it right, what tends to happen when you do a really great rebrand is all your old customers lean in, they go, oh, this is a sign of something good.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Usually a rebrand is a good signal. It's a signal that like, we're innovating, we're adapting to the future, if it's done well, and people, you reintroduce them into the ecosystem, you repick their interest. Every time Apple redesigns their logo or Pepsi redesigns their logo, whatever, people lean back in. You do have legacy brands like Coca-Cola, I don't think would ever rebrand because they've just created something epic from the start. But it's important to have an honest conversation with the founder and challenge them on their beliefs and go, look, in service of what is the greatest question I've ever asked any entrepreneur is like, okay, we're changing the branding in service of what? Well, we want to be cool, want new customers, we want to attract better talent to the business. We want people to respect us. We want to intimidate the competitors.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Okay, well then, are there good enough reasons to do this? Yes. Okay, are your sacred cows that you want to hold on to helping or hindering this process? Oh, they're hindering it. Okay, what do I need to get in front of you to let go of these sacred cows?

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I want market research. We can do that, what else? I want to see more concepts. We can do that, what else? No, that's it. Okay, so if I can put evidence in front of you and I can give you more concepts, you'll be open to this. Yes. Now, here's one more trick for any strategist out there is what I call mild, medium, spicy. So get the new brief.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  And mild is exactly what the customer ordered. So let's just say you run a restaurant and a customer says, I just want three eggs and a little bit of salt and pepper. Just do that. Don't do any garnishes, don't do anything crazy. The first plate that comes out is like, hey, I did exactly what you asked. Here's three eggs, here's a little bit of salt, here's a little bit of pepper. I took a liberty and I made a second plate. The second plate is two eggs, one sausage, a tomato and a little hash brown.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And they're like, okay. So it's not crazy, but it's like, you sure you don't want to try this dish? And they're like, well, actually, I kind of like want to try that one. This one seems a little boring now. So this is what I call the mild, medium, spicy technique. Spicy is you bring something out and what I typically tell my team is, you became the CEO, what are you gonna do to this brand if you own a hundred percent of the company? Oh, well, I would do it like this. I'm like, go to town.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  So what I get my team to do is do the mild and then go absolute balls to the wall, go to town and then do something in the middle. So when we come back to the client, we go, here's mild. Okay, cool. Here's medium. Ooh, that's a bit better. Spicy might be like, hey, I kind of reinvented the breakfast. What you have in front of you here is a beautiful egg parfait and then next to it is a nice, beautiful piece of toast. And then here's a beautiful soup and whatever. You change the entire makeup of the dish. What tends to happen is the client goes, that's really exciting. I really want to try the spicy stuff, but I'm a little afraid that it's a bit too pompous or whatever. But what happens is we get a Frankenstein. So if you show them mild, medium, spicy, the client usually goes, hey, can I take two or three things out of the spicy thing? And like half of what's in the medium and like one of the boring things?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  And can we, can we recreate a dish based on those ingredients? For sure. Now the client feels in control, they're letting their sacred cows go because they've seen an array of options that stem from safe through to risky.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  And or from like benign through to violation. And you get to find out like if a violation's a ten and benign is a one, you're like, where, where do you want to go? Do you want to become a seven or six? So when we worked with Mad Max and Stone Real Estate, you know, Stone Real Estate were like, we want to be a six. Mad Max actually surprised me, like, we want to be a nine. I was like, all right. So then we allow the client to drive.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  They are spicy, so.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  They're super spicy. We allow the client to drive, but we want to make sure we do it in a way where they feel like they're a part of the creation process.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Two things on this, I love this, this example because I think you know Revolve. We worked with Revolve with our rebranding on our MBA.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  And he did exactly that. He gave us the three dishes and we did exactly that. Like, we really like the spicy, but can we have something between spicy, medium or yeah, the medium dish? It reminded me of something I just heard from Cliff, who's the co-founder of Canva. He was on stage at Stripe Tour last year, or sorry, last week. And he was mentioning that with Canva, AI prompts doesn't really work for design. Like, people don't really know what they want. They need templates, they need to see things to say, oh, I like that, I like that birthday card, I want something like that, maybe modify it a little bit. So that example you just gave with branding, that people need to see some choices.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  To say, that's more my vibe. They can't come up with this idea on their own, that's not their job, that's your job. So I love the fact that you give them a menu and you also like push the envelope a little bit so that they get a chance to see what it looks like to reinvent themselves, which is fantastic.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  And even if they don't want to choose it, it's like, this is what it would look like if we did do that.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, to the point about Canva, this is really important. When you're working with a client, even in the sales process, if you're selling something is like, you have to make sure that there's some structure or some framing to what they're looking at buying, right? And I have a bit of a controversial opinion around sales.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, tell me.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  And it's that the price is a myth.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  If a client says this is too expensive and the salesperson believes that, you need to retrain your salesperson. This is gonna get people in a lot of hot water. I've had debates with people over the years on this and I believe in my heart of hearts is four things that will get a sale across the line. In this case, I'm talking about like how to convince a client to pick something for branding purposes, right? How to lock in a logo or whatever.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  And it's in their interest.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  That's in their interest. Number one is the person. Do they like you, the person? If you, if they don't trust you, they don't like you, you give them the ick, you piss them off for whatever reason, they're probably not gonna listen to your opinion.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  But if they're like, man, I really like Omar, he's like a nice dude, he cares about me, he's invested, I'm not sure about this logo, but man, he really, he's a really good dude. So I'm gonna give you more brownie points for that. Two is the product. I have to look at the product and go, this is a good product. You designed something really good here, whatever your product is. Three is the process. Is the process fun or is it annoying? Like, did you enjoy getting presented with options instead of being told, tell us what you want?

• 41:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  It's kind of annoying if you're told all the time, like, what do you want?

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Like, imagine walking in a restaurant, they're like, hey, what do you want? You're like, is there a menu? Like, nope. You need to tell us what you want. You're the customer. You're like, whoa, man, this is kind of too much pressure. I'm just gonna go to the next cafe as a restaurant, right? You need a good process, you need a menu. And then the final thing is proof.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Like, what have you done previously that can bring to this equation? If you can go into any negotiation situation and they're like, I like the person, I really like the products, I like this process. This person has proof.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  The price is not the priority anymore.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  If you can light those four things up and have those four things like really exciting.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  People will go on a payment plan, they'll borrow money off their mom. Like I've, I've had crazy stuff where people have like sold their car, re-mortgaged their house. I don't ask people to do this stuff, by the way, to work with me. And it's because it's like, if you can tick those four boxes, man, you can move mountains.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  And they believe, yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  You can get a brand who's hell bent on not spending four million bucks doing their signage.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  This guy's kind of smart, like let's do what he says.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I trust what he's saying. And you mentioned something else earlier about giving people the options, like saying, hey, if you don't do this, this is what's going to happen. This is what the competitors are going to do in terms of your competition. One of the things that we used to teach, you know, we ran a webinar software a very long time and we used to run these workshops and the biggest problem that our users would have was I don't know how to transition from workshop to a sales pitch. And when I do the sales pitch, I don't know how to close the pitch so that people can buy my product or service. So we used to teach them this idea of like, you have to tell them what the options are, not the plan, A, B, C, this is what you can, you know, these are the payment plans or these are the tiers of our plan, but the option of, hey, you can end this webinar

• 43:37Speaker 00

  and you cannot take action and you can continue to get the results you're getting right now. Or you can go on our free trial, buy our product, get a result, change your state, change what you're doing and, and what you're getting out of it. That's your choice. You have to make a choice right now. But where some people just don't see it clearly in their head when they're being sold. They're kind of just like, oh, it's like buy or not, but they don't really understand the consequences of not buying.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  So I think that that's a really good tip that you gave where you, you talk to the client and say, hey, the consequence of not rebranding is X, Y, Z. Like you're coming to me for a reason. Things are not working.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  And I love that fact because a lot of people don't make it easy for people to see the choice they're making when they buy.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. I think you're, you're hinting at something else here, which is like, you have to believe it for the client. Right? If you're on a call and the client says to you, ah, this is kind of expensive and you believed what they just said, game over. You're not going to sell anything, right? And like just the amount of times I've seen someone pull into my office in a G-Wagon with a Rolex and a $200,000 handbag and sit down and tell my team, oh, we don't really have much money right now. My team are like, oh, okay. I'm like, did you not see the bag? And then what, like literally take the watch off your wrist and buy, build a brand.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  What's more valuable right now, building your company or the Rolex on your wrist?

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  And my team are like, oh, that's kind of harsh. I'm like, no, it's like, if they got money to pay for a Rolex and a G-Wagon.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Like you have to believe that that person is going to give you money, but that you have to be the person and showcase the product and the process and the proof that they need to see at their level of altitude for them to give you money.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Because I think a big problem I see in the sales space is just the lack of belief of the salesperson believing in the client for the client.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  You know, when you get these questions where the client goes, oh, you really think I can do this? It's like, yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Of course. Like sign there. Let's go. Like how much more proof do you need? I'm afraid. Why are you here right now? Cause you have to talk about the consequences of not doing it. Some would say, well, that's peer pressure. I'm like, no, don't mistake pressure for passion.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  If you truly can see the light at the end of the tunnel for the client, it's your duty and obligation to take them to the light. Sometimes clients just won't go there. And some painful questions you can ask to exacerbate this is like, all right, like Mr. Customer, how long have you been in this situation of this frame of thinking? Oh, about two years now. So you've been dealing with this for two years. You're dealing with insomnia, you can't eat, you can't sleep on the weekends, you're stressed out, your team aren't listening to you. Like how much more pain do you need to go through for you to make this decision? You know what, man? Let's do it. And then they sign the contract. This can be uncomfortable for a salesperson, but so can marriage, so can being a parent, so can going to the gym. Everything's painful.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Helping your clients make decisions can be a painful experience, but if you believe in your products.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  And you believe in your company and you truly think your stuff is the best, you need to fight for it.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  And that's a perfect example of showing them the options. Like you can just keep suffering or you can sign on the dotted line and we can help you with all this anxiety, you know? I love that because you, you have to have clarity. You have to have a clear picture in the mind of the customer. The customer has to see that, what the after picture looks like. This is why the before and after pictures in like the health and wellness space work so much, because people see what they can be. So if you can't paint that picture for the customer in whatever you do and your service, your product, it's very hard for them to say yes.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  I, I like this, what you're talking about here is world building.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Are you familiar with like the, the branding, as I guess, like world building?

• 46:59Speaker 00

  No, tell me about it.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Okay. So essentially, let's say you're studying a fashion label. If you were to say, okay, this suit that you're wearing right now is a beautiful suit. If you were to say, hey, I got a beautiful suit, look at the fabric, it's made out of cotton, it's a hundred percent recycled, upcycled, whatever. It's good for the environment. I'd be like, okay, like fair enough. Like if I care about those things, I might buy it. What's more powerful than that is world building. So let's say you do a photo shoot and there's an aesthetic, you're in a place. So world building is like places and surfaces. So where are you? Oh, you're on a beach. Where? In Monaco and it's sunset and it's kind of like cool weather and you're wearing a pair of shades and it's reflecting off the shades. All of a sudden you have an aesthetic.

• 47:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  And the viewer is like, I kind of wish I was in that world. That's going to raise their ambition to click purchase now.

• 47:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Cause like, man, I really wish I look as cool as Omar in this photo shoot. Right? Then there's other things like objects. So are you interacting with objects? What are the citizens? So are there different characters in this world that look like they're having a good time in a certain way, right? So if you look at Red Bull citizens, they're all rebels, they're all human pioneers. If you look at Versace, Louis Vuitton, Culture Kings, Saint Laurent, like they all have these citizen worlds that they build out.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Ralph Lauren has like this nepo baby, preppy, New York kind of thing going on. It's useful and it's cool. And it's like, I look like I'm from a rich family.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Old money, yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Old money. So you see this aesthetic, you see these citizens, you feel this temperament and then all of a sudden you want to step in and buy the products.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  A lot of people forget that when you're selling a product, you're building a world and you're inviting people to come in and be a part of that world.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Whether that's the world of Canva or the world of Instagram or the world of TikTok or the world of, you know, this podcast, it's like you have to immerse people in these, in heightened senses to make them care about things.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  I love that you just said that because a lot of people have noticed like, oh Omar, you're dressing differently. I got a stylist, I got a personal stylist, Riri, shout out to you.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Shout out Riri.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Riri.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  I need to meet Riri, by the way.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's great. So Riri, when she would style me and try this on and she would say things like this, she would say like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is like George Clooney-esque. This is, you know, Milan Cafe, you know, old money.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Tom Ford.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  Exactly. I don't know why those things really allow you to feel the brand or feel the style.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Like, okay, instead of like, you know, navy blue looks nice on you. It's more like, you know, oh yeah, yeah, this is Ben Affleck in that movie, da, da, da, da, da. Oh yeah, I'm Ben Affleck now. I'm Batman.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  You know, so.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, these associations.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  The associations really matter. Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 00

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• 51:12Speaker 00

  I want to move into, you know, you have your personal branding, Walker, you have the agency podcast brand, I have the hundred dollar MBA, I also have my personal brand. How do you balance that? How do you know what to invest in when it comes to your business brand and your personal brand?

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so there's different realms for branding and I'm just gonna go through the realms and then talk to how they're a little bit different and then we can come back and maybe if you want to bone pick some of these things that you're looking for here. Okay, so there's five realms of branding. The first realm is your core, your family. So, real quick example, I was on stage with Daniel Priestley and Stephen Bartlett, November last year. And I remember coming home after this high of this trip, like, people were opening doors for me, private security, cars, like five-star hotels, first-class flights, like, I was treated like royalty. And then I come home and reality sinks in, because my partner Ellie, the second I come in the front door, I'm like, hey, baby, like, I had the best trip in the world, oh my gosh. And she's like, dude, can you please do the

• 52:08Speaker 01

  dishes? The kids are screaming, Joey needs a bath, and we gotta get these kids to bed.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, they don't care about Stephen Bartlett.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  They don't care about Stephen Bartlett. No one's opening doors for me. I'm not royalty anymore. So your core, it's not about like who you are in the world, it's who you are at home. You know, she just wants a partner to help her, my kids just want their dad. It's about character. That's the first world. The second, oh, the first arena. The second arena is your workplace. Okay, so you come to the workplace with Josh. Now, if you said something to Josh yesterday that you would, that he definitely needs you to get done today, and then you didn't do it, he's gonna be like, damn dude, like, I don't know if I can rely on Omar. Like, I wish he did that thing, because now my day's like thrown out because of that thing. So, or-

• 52:46Speaker 00

  He never played like you, like Josh. He never played that game.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  No, no, no, not once. He's like, I got you, man. But if you, on the other side of that, if you're like, I don't play that way, Josh always gets what he wants. Josh is like, dude, I got a lot of trust. So in your workplace, it's all about the transaction of like, promises and like deposit and withdrawal. So like, like, I need this done. Okay, cool, here it is. So it's very interactive and transactional in that space, right? So in your workplace, your personal brand is all about like, did you do what you said you were gonna do? Are you like fun to hang out with? And like, do I care about you or not? Or do you piss me off? So, they're the main things that tend to happen in that space. Move out another layer, then you have your community. So, are you part of a basketball team? I understand. Maybe you train at a wellness club, you hang out with your stylist. Like, there's communities where you're creating a place of belonging.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  It's not about transaction or getting things done anymore. It's about like, I wanna commune, I wanna hang out, I wanna talk, I wanna kinda let my hair down. That world's about fun, spontaneity, celebration, togetherness, conversation, insights, right? That's storytelling, that's where that kind of exists. Move out another layer, then you have your industry. Yeah. So then, okay, you have a podcast, I have a podcast, we're in the same industry together. So we can either collaborate or compete, or both. We can be frenemies, but I love you. So, yeah, I'd rather collaborate.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Buddies for life, yeah.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Right? So, so if you look at your industry, the personal brand's a little different, because you're either seen as someone who's worthy of being collaborated with, or someone who's worthy of destroying and competing with. Then you go out another layer, and then there's just the public and the general populace. So let's take a famous brand like Stephen Bartlett. You know, we know a little bit about his private life, and that's his core, and he's very kind of private about it. Then you know a little bit about his team, because he basically films a television show about him and his team. So you get to see all the interactivity around his team. So, if you watch Behind the Diary, he's building that arena. He's like, hey, this is where we work, this is how I work. And he's showing you that, maybe a curated version of that, but a very real, at the same time, version of that. Then, community. So sometimes you see little bouts of him doing collaborations,

• 54:46Speaker 01

  or, you know, going on the people's podcasts, or going on stage and doing keynotes and stuff like that. That's a bit more community-led branding. Then you see him partnering up with other celebrities, or doing a podcast with someone he admires. That's industry collaboration. And then there's the general public, where, you know, people can feel like they can get access to all these arenas. So back to your question about like, how do you build these brands? You have to ask yourself the question of like, what is each version of my brand in service of? So for example, my Instagram is in a service of education, a little snackable pieces of education. My podcast is about the guest. So it's in service of, let's get other people's stories, so that they can share their expertise. I'm launching another YouTube channel, which is me teaching, in 20-minute format. That's

• 55:30Speaker 01

  a bit more deep lessons that are a bit more tactile and tangible. So my question for you is like, what's the function of each of these versions of your brands?

• 55:38Speaker 00

  Right. That's a really good way to look at it, because they kind of feed off each other. The business brand and then your personal brand.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so then there's a flywheel, maybe. So let me paint the picture of my flywheel. So I have my personal brands, I make content on social media. That generates content that people can consume. If the content's good, it'll generate fans of the content. If that's really, if the fans are like, man, this dude's stuff is really valuable, they might look at my product brands or my company brands and go, hey, I might wanna work with Rival, or I might wanna like, download or buy Dane's book, or whatever. If that thing is purchased and then consumed, and then here's the next step, endorsed. Let's say they go, wow, that book was great, I'm gonna tell other people to go buy this book.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, or leave a review, or whatever, yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Right. So they're no longer a fan, they're now an advocate. An advocate is someone who's like spruiking your products for your benefit. And then guess what happens? The flywheel comes back to your personal brand. So if you have a cool company, that has proof and accolades and evidence of success, then all of a sudden, your personal brand's a lot cooler. And then the flywheel continues. So why is it that Alex Hamozzi or Gary Vee could put a 30-second video together, and they just say, hey, if you wanna have a great business, just go out there and hustle. Forty thousand comments, like 10,000 reshares, like, if I said the exact same thing, no one would care. Why do they get all this extra amplification? It's like, well, they've gone around that flywheel a million times. Gary

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Vee's gone around that flywheel 40 times a day for like 16 years. So then, he has a whole pass to kind of say other things, because he's already built so many advocates, so many fans, and whatever he shares gets like a secondhand effect of amplification. At the beginning, you don't have that same advantage. You have to kind of earn those fans and earn those advocates. Now, here's the conundrum, is if you're only making a 60-second piece of content a day, you're earning one minute a day per fan.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Not enough.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  It's not enough. So the game of entrepreneurship right now is like, how do I get more minutes per day? So that's where podcasting becomes important, that's where long-form content becomes important. Like, how else can people consume you? If it's just a 60-second snippet, it's not enough material to build a relationship. So the last thing I'll say to this is, do you know what a parasocial relationship is?

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, people feel like they're connected, even though they're not, yeah.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? So I remember being at LAX, I turned around one day, and there's like a seven-foot giant behind me, and it's Louis' house. And I turned around, and I was like, oh my God, it's Louis' house! And I freaked out, and I fangirled, and he got nervous. He's like, who the hell is this random dude? And I went straight for the dap, and he's like, bro, like, he's like, hello. And my mind was like, he's my best friend.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  But in reality, he's like, you're a complete stranger, I don't know who you are. So what was that? It's like, I consumed 10,000 hours of his content. He's never met me, he's at zero. So, when you're making content, how do you have that reaction I have with Louis, with your fans? Is you gotta give them enough material to consume? How much? I've, through my studies, found out it's about 150 hours-

• 58:49Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  -of consumed content is what is required to create a true fan.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's not an insignificant amount of time.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of time. But that's how you create a fan. A fan is someone who's gonna drive six hours or fly countries to come see you speak.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Totally. Yeah, yeah. And I actually witnessed what you just talked about. I was on holiday with Ramit Sethi, who's amazing personal finance guy, he's got a Netflix show. We're in Tokyo, Japan, and people are coming up to him, asking for photos. And I'm the guy taking the photo, right? And now it's like, and he was so gracious about it, but it's like, people just felt entitled. Like, hey, you're me, how you doing? Like, just take a picture, you know, like, and he's just trying to enjoy his lunch, you know? Like, I thought it was really interesting, because that's definitely a thing, the parasocial relationship.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  I wanna jump into another game.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  Let's go. Okay, so, this game is called Offer Tables. It's a game that we play here on the show, where I'm gonna give you an offer, and you tell me, deal or no deal?

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 59:50Speaker 00

  Okay, I'll just read them out to you.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  All right.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  All right. So, the first offer is, you get to spend a week on a yacht with your five biggest business heroes, but you can never talk about it. Deal or no deal? Will you take that deal?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Deal.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, yes.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  Next one. Your business makes $250 million a year, but you must only use Comic Sans font for everything for the rest of your life.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  You're a horrible human being.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Deal.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Deal, take it.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd be stupid not to, yeah.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  When I was making this, I thought, Comic Sans, Papyrus, which one's worse?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  I think Comic Sans is the worst, but I think the irony and the hysterical component of it would, I'd have enough capital to make it worth my while.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you'd make it your thing.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  I love it. Next one. No internet for a month, but you get an extra year of your life.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Has happened right now?

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Wow, man, that's tough, man. I'm thinking about my kids. Selfishly, I would choose the internet, but I love my children, so I'd have to choose. I'd have to choose an extra year of life.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  Okay, you'll take the deal. I like it.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  Next one. Netflix calls and wants to make a movie out of your life, but they want Vin Diesel to play the role.

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  You taking this deal?

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Which era of Vin Diesel?

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Modern day Vin Diesel.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, deal. I would love to watch that.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Watching Vin Diesel run brand workshops?

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  It's like Boiler Room, right?

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  And finally. You never need to sleep, but you must only wear purple every day.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  That's awful.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  I never needed to sleep?

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Deal.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  I just dressed like a wizard, yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  I love it. Thanks for playing along, Dane. That's awesome.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  These are great deals.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  They're all horrible, but I'd take all of them.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  So, there's something that we chatted about earlier. When it came to people dealing with imposter syndrome. This is something that you see people struggle with a lot when it comes to building their personal brand. You talked me through like how you guys go through it in the workshop, and I was like, hey, why don't you do it on the show? Let's get you to do it on the show. So we're gonna jump onto the whiteboard, and you're gonna walk through how people can get over that imposter syndrome through your exercise.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  So, this exercise is called the imposter syndrome check. And Dane's gonna walk us through how to kind of go through this. I'll be the subject. I'll be the person that will be embarrassing themselves. But if you're listening to the podcast right now, go ahead. If you want the full experience over on YouTube, just go to 100mba.net/youtube so you can watch and listen. But if you're in the car, don't get into an accident. Just keep listening and you can check out YouTube later. Dane, I'm gonna let you take over. Here you go.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  All right, let's go. So, yeah, let's go through one at a time. Couple rules. Number one is you have to be really honest.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  And imagine someone you care dearly is in the room and calling you out if you lie a little bit.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  That's true. Nicole's here, so she can do it.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  And number two, I want you to apply this generally. So, let's say half the time you do, half the time you don't do the thing. Give yourself like a five. Okay? So for each thing, we're going around the wheel here on, we're gonna give ourselves a rating on a scale of one to five, uh, sorry, one to 10. Let's use the red pen, because that might show up best. Yeah, use the big fat one. Okay, cool. All right, so what you're looking at here, if you're watching the video version of this, is there's a diagram in front of us about how you show up as a personal brand, and these are typically the things that'll show up when you feel like you're an imposter.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  So for anyone listening or watching this who feels like, man, I just, I wanna do this thing one day. I wanna build a personal brand, but I just, I feel like I'm not the person I need to be yet to be able to have the life I want.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Not good enough.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  I'm not good enough, right? So then, this is a quick thing you can do to audit yourself or anyone around you, and do it with love, but also make them be honest. Okay, great. So first on the wheel here, we have perfectionism.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Okay. Let's assume, one is that this doesn't show up in your life at all.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  You're never a perfectionist. Nothing has to be perfect. A five is, half the time, this is really a problem. Like, this is really showing up, and I'm trying to make everything perfect.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  The other half of the time, I don't care at all. And then a 10 is, hey, almost everything in my professional life is attached to perfectionism.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  And, you know, perfectionism might not be a bad thing, but we just wanna see how.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  It's a thing.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  It's a thing, right? So, okay, so if we're gonna rate your personal brands and your professional self on a level of one to 10 with perfectionism.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  A 6.5.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  6.5? Okay, cool.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Hold me accountable, Nicole.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  6.5, right?

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  So we'll just put a 6.5 there. Okay, let's say people pleasing.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Four.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Four. And if you're listening at home, you can play along. Four. Okay, let's talk about procrastination on a scale of one to 10.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  10 being it's a real problem?

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  10 being it's a real problem.

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  One.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  One? Okay. So just to cap these off real quick. Perfectionism often shows up where people are trying to make something perfect before they deploy it.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  And this can be something that sometimes connects to other things. People pleasing, oftentimes with imposter syndrome, is I'm afraid that other people are going to be pleased with my activity or my behavior. Therefore, I need to like finesse it before I come back and do it. So these things are all kind of joined at the hip. So let's say, yeah, perfectionism is 6.5, people pleasing is a four, procrastination is a one. You feel like you just get straight into the heated battle. All right. Periodic is about, are you really hot sometimes and then really cold other times? So you go all out doing a thing, then you get tired of it, and then you lose momentum or lose passion for the thing.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  If I'm up and down, that'd be a 10? Like, really up and down?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so really up and down would be like really hot, really cold, really hot, really cold. Five would be like, oh, sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  I'm not that periodic. I'm pretty consistent. I'm very careful what I choose to do, so I'd probably say a one or a two. Say two.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's say two?

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Cool. Let's say pessimism. Pessimism is about thinking, what's the point? It's not gonna work anyway. It's probably gonna break. It's gonna take forever. There's gonna be all these problems ahead. It's predicting kind of the worst case scenario always.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  I would say I'm a one on that. I'm pretty positive.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  That's good. Okay, great. Some of you at home might be really high on that. All right, projection. Projection, for me, is putting the blame on outside external factors. I can't build a personal brand because I don't have time. I can't build a personal brand because I don't have resources. I don't have a team. I don't have the knowledge or the skill set yet. It's, you're projecting, it's not me, it's this outside thing I need to do first before I can succeed at the thing.

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. If I'm being completely honest, probably more like a three on that one. Not completely free of that.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Not completely free? Okay. Posturing is not wanting to do something unless you look exceptional at doing it. So I've had students I've worked with that have done 100 million dollar, 200, 300 million dollar businesses. Then they wanna go build a personal brand, and they're afraid that they're gonna look stupid because they've got this big successful company, but now they look like an amateur again. So the posturing piece comes back in, because it's like, well, I need to show my car. I need to show my house. I need to show, you know, like, you feel like you need these things, these objects to make it, or vanity metric of followers to make something worth doing.

• 1:07:24Speaker 00

  One or two, maybe? Yeah.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  That's because you lived in poverty and you didn't care.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I failed a ton. I failed a whole lot. Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Okay, pride. Now, pride's a tricky one. Pride is the willingness and the ability to take on feedback and the stubbornness to go, no, I know what I'm doing. Everyone just needs to do it my way versus like, actually, maybe I suck at this, maybe I have an ego problem, maybe they're like, like, sometimes pride can be sneaky, and people can find this one tricky to answer, because almost everyone wants to say, oh, no, I don't have pride, but like, sometimes we do have egos. We do have things to get in the way.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  I do hold strong opinions, so I'd probably say I'm more of a 5.5 here.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  I can see your wife nodding her head in the back.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Okay, 5.5.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Okay, looking at this wheel, now you're very successful. You're a very proficient individual. For those of you at home, you might rank like an eight, nine, or a 10 out of some of these. The question I want you to ask yourself is, which one tends to feed the other ones?

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so in my flywheel, I'm like a 10 out of perfectionism. Like, I get super stressed out about things being a certain way. Even in the car drive over here, my team are like, hey, man, like, you don't need a set to like film that thing you wanna do. Like, how about we just start filming it? I'm like, no, we need a set.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  And it's my perfectionism coming back in.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Because I wanna please my audience, and therefore I get to procrastinate about it, and I'm periodic because I'm gonna wait to do it later, and I'm like, well, what's the point in doing it anyways? So for me, what tends to feed my imposter syndrome is the desire to be perfect so I can please people.

• 1:08:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  That's my recipe. That's tend to what triggers me. Yours might be different. If you had a hunch as to what feeds your wheel negatively, what might it be? At times where you fly out of control and your ego gets the best of you and things don't go your way.

• 1:09:09Speaker 00

  I think what I've had to work on over the years is probably the prideful stuff.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:12Speaker 00

  I think it's the idea of like, I can always get better, getting the data to learn objectively what's going right, what's going wrong, having a team to correct me and not just rely on myself and say, hey, it's working, you know, let's keep rolling with it. It's that admitting to yourself that maybe you're not as good as you think you are.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Okay, so we'll put a little Pac-Man symbol here. So your feeder is pride, which is okay. It's not a bad thing. We're human beings, like, we're, you know, creatures of emotions and feelings. So if you were to ask yourself the question, would you wanna change these numbers? And if you're like, nope, these numbers are cool, wanna keep them exactly where they are, that's fine. But if you wanted to change some of these numbers, what would you like to change? We'll use a different color.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'd wanna change, like, what I'm working on the most is the prideful one.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  So I'd wanna like reduce as much as possible.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  And.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  What number would you like it to be?

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  Ideally, one.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  A one?

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, just like zero ego involved.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Okay. So what are things in your life showing up right now that trigger this, that bring this to the surface?

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  Things in my life that trigger this? Um...

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Or where does this tend to show up most? When people are trying to give you feedback, you're like, hey, I don't need feedback. I'm good.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  That's a good one. Maybe it's something I've been doing for a very long time, whether it's basketball. I'm open more to things I'm new at.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Like, for example, we're new at YouTube. I'm new at poker. You know, like, I wanna learn because I'm aware of it, but I'm...

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Maybe it's not showing up there. So where is it showing up?

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  It's showing up in things I've done for a very long time, like podcasting or business, and where I have the illusion that I know more than them.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Okay, where is that illusion showing up? Because that's very specific language.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  And your posture changed there.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  And your tone of voice changed a little bit, right? So this happens in our workshops where people's framing changes? And that's okay. But is it podcasting or business for you?

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  Probably business.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Okay, so business?

• 1:10:59Speaker 00

  Because I've been doing that for longer than broadcasting, yeah.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  All right, so when you said the illusion happens, what's the illusion?

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  I might not be immediately open to other people's perspectives when it comes to how to approach something in business.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, they might have a different perspective, a different angle, a different experience. And I need to be a little bit more receptive to that.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  So you want more reception?

• 1:11:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  To other people's perspectives?

• 1:11:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  This is really important, right? So this is real. Now the conversation's gone from, let's rank things to, okay, let's try to identify the problem. So for anyone listening to this, this might be different for you. This might be posturing, projection, pessimism. It's okay, it's not about attacking you or belittling yourself. It's about bringing the scary thing to the surface.

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  So there's this great quote from Grant Condon. He says, "He used his fear as a compass." So let's imagine right now that this isn't a flywheel of impulsive syndrome, but this is now our compass. And the compass is pointing towards pride and it's saying, hey, if we want to become a stronger, better, smarter, cooler business person, maybe. The illusion of I know what I'm doing and the lack of taking on other people's perspectives isn't a bad thing, but maybe it's blinding you to some learnings.

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Okay, what do you think could be learned if you were receptive to other people's ideas? Whether or not you agree with their ideas and their views. But the reception alone, what would that add to your psyche? What would that add to your business?

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  At the very least, I'd be more of a well-rounded entrepreneur. I would understand other people's perspectives and know how to approach them. Because whether they're giving me advice, that advice is coming from somewhere. Like there's other people that had those thoughts and those people could be my listeners, they could be my audience members. I think it would also allow me to experiment with new things and reinvent myself as an entrepreneur. I think primarily this comes from maybe people that are less experienced than me. I'm not as, like, if I read a book from like, you know, Phil Knight or something, you know, like the founder of Nike, then it's like, this guy's the boss, of course I gotta listen to what he says.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  Like if somebody's just been doing business for a few years and they say like, you know, you should be doing this, this and this. And it's like, I'm less receptive, but like, there could be some wisdom in there that I'm neglecting.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's a quote from, I think it's Abraham Lincoln. He said, "You can learn from everyone, most of the time what not to do." So even learning the thing that you definitely don't want to do, still learning, right? Okay, so when we do this exercise and we drill down into each wheel, we ask two questions. One is, therefore what? Therefore, if you were to do this, therefore what would happen?

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  I'd be better at what I do.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  You would be better? Could you be more specific?

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  I think I'd be better. I also probably think it would be more fun. It'd be, I would enjoy it more because I'd be trying new things.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Cool. Even if it's an uncomfortable thing to go, oh, I don't like this person's advice, right?

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Oh, I'll still listen to it. Okay, what is one action that you can repeat every day? That is going to start the process of this becoming a part of your business acumen?

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  It reminded me of something that Mark Manson has said before. It's like reminding myself that if I look back at my former self like 10 years ago, I probably would say, oh, that guy was such an idiot. Well, that probably is what I'm going to say 10 years in the future. So there's a good chance I'm wrong about my strong opinions right now. So it's a good reminder, just remind myself like, hey, there's a good chance a lot of things that I'm doing right now, I'm going to think was stupid.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  What's something that is one action a day? We can actively put in your calendar that you can track?

• 1:14:24Speaker 00

  Hmm, in my calendar? Maybe have a conversation with somebody that maybe differs in opinion of me when it comes to their approach in business.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Five-minute conversation, 10-minute conversation?

• 1:14:37Speaker 00

  Plenty, yeah.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Five minutes minimum?

• 1:14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Cool. So how many days in a row could you do that challenge?

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  I can do it at least for five days in a row, yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Five days in a row?

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  When would you like to start?

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  I can start September 1st.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  September 1st, okay. September 1st, you're going to make the challenge every day. And it has to be in your calendar, pre-scheduled.

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  A time where you find someone to have a conversation with.

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Could be a team member. How could you find people to talk to about this challenge?

• 1:15:04Speaker 00

  I mean, we've got a lot of businesses around here. I can go to the cafe, I can go to the restaurant.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  You can do like on-the-street interviews one day.

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  That's kind of interesting.

• 1:15:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  So then how do you turn this into a container that might be used for content?

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  It could be like a vox pop, it could be like interviews, like you said, yeah.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Yes. So what we found with our students in our program is that the thing that they're most scared of, how do we turn it into an actual problem? Then how do we look at the impacts of joy and enjoyment in your life? How do we make it a challenge? And then how do we make it a piece of content?

• 1:15:31Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Because then you're taking the scariest thing and you're making it part of your universe.

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  And you're sharing it in your community. And what we find is when people start to do this, they start to loosen up on everything.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Right, the feeder that kind of impacts the whole wheel, when they focus on the main one, all the other ones tend to come down and their enjoyment and satisfaction tends to go up.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, cool. Well, thanks for doing the exercise.

• 1:15:50Speaker 00

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  What we can do is maybe give you a PDF of this. And if anyone wants to do this at home?

• 1:15:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  You could download the PDF and do this exercise for yourself.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  Cool, we put a link in the show notes and, uh, don't judge me, guys, don't judge me.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  I tried.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  This is great, man.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  Thank you so much. Let's get back in there.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:16:10Speaker 00

  Okay, so that was a very confronting exercise.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  But I gotta be honest, and this is for everybody who's listening, you're going to get the PDF, you get to do it yourself. If you're honest with this exercise, it's going to be uncomfortable. And it was uncomfortable for me, to be honest, to admit those things on camera too. But I wanted to get the most out of the exercise and therefore I kind of had to be real about the whole pride thing.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  It can be really tricky. I think there's something really powerful about like honest self-reflection. And when you can truly sit there and ask yourself these hard questions, because in the PDF you download, there's like descriptions, there's a bit more of the exercise you can do as well. It's really about taking ownership of the things that are in the way.

• 1:16:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  When you think about impulsive syndrome, we try to externalize it as this outside thing that is preventing us from making content or producing a personal brand or chasing our dreams. Whatever the thing is that you're like, I need to go do the thing, these things in the way. And you're very successful. And I meet entrepreneurs all the time that are super successful and they sit down with this exercise and like, this kind of sucks. Like, man, I didn't realize this was showing up. So the same way pride's showing up for you, it's showing up for me a lot right now in business. Because we get to this point where like seven years into my business, I'm like, I got a lot of wins. And then I feel like I'm sitting down taking advice from like team members sometimes. They're like, man, you need to focus on this, you need to focus on that. I'm like, man, I'm kind of sick of taking advice right now. I think everyone should just listen to me. But again, that's ego.

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  So when you sit down with this exercise and you ask yourself these questions, it's uncomfortable and it should be. But there's something cathartic and powerful about getting it out of your head and writing it down. And Tony Robbins has this amazing quote. He says, "If you're in your head, you're dead."

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  Woo.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  If it's in your head, you're just game over. Write it down and sit there and read it. And then you kind of, you know, you'll read this tomorrow and you'll laugh at yourself. You're like, yeah, this is a problem.

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  Like, I'm kind of excited about this, but you know, how do we have fun with these things? So that's why I said to you like, therefore, like, how do we make it a plan? That's something you can do every day. And then how do we turn it to content? Make it fun and then share it. And then other people are going to see that content and go, hey, this is kind of spicy content. This is real. This is something that's coming from a real place with a real problem that Omar has. Even if you don't post it.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  You'll find that there's material in that and an honesty about being vulnerable. Now, one thing with personal branding that I learned from Chris Do, and this is really powerful. And he teaches this notion that you should wear and expose your vulnerabilities publicly. And he did this exercise where we wrote down a list of things we're really strong at. And on the other side, we wrote down an opposing list of all the things we're vulnerable at, right? And for Chris, he was explaining this to me. He said, "Dane, my biggest weakness is I'm an introvert." He's like, "I'm such a painful introvert. Like I go on stage and I shake for 10 minutes. I meet someone who is cool and I get intimidated and I get flustered and my heart palpitates and my hands shake and my brain goes foggy."

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  And he's like, "It's just happened my whole life." That's his great vulnerability and he's embarrassed about it. He feels like sometimes he can't control it.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  So endearing because it's Chris Do, you know, Chris Do is the man.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  He's the man, right? So then he goes, "Well, what am I great at?" He's like, "I'm really loud. I wear loud outfits, I have these loud ideas, I'm opinionated, but I'm cool once I warm up." So he essentially taught us that if you take a really cool strength and a really like embarrassing vulnerability and then you put those two things together, you create what he calls a two-word brand. And his two-word brand is like, "Hi guys, my name's Chris Do." So when he walks out on stage, the first thing you'll notice Chris Do says is, "What's up, guys? My name's Chris Do and I'm a loud introvert." And people will usually laugh, they're like, what, what do you mean a loud introvert? And he goes, "Can I get a hell yeah from all my introverts in the house?" And everyone laughs because no one puts their hand up, right? And he's like, "That's my point," right? And it's a joke and it's a nice intro.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  And I think we need to take ourselves less seriously sometimes. And when we do these exercises, we're finding these vulnerabilities and we want to hide them. We want to look perfect, we want to make sure we look cool. The coolest thing to do, I think, is honestly exposing that you're a real human. If you look at all of our favorite TV characters, movie stars, they always have flaws. They always have vulnerabilities and we love them anyways. Why? Because it's way more relatable to look at a human who's a bit of a mess, who's also winning and figuring it out, kind of.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I kind of relate to that way more than I relate to Messi or like this perfect like superstar.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Um, so for you, man, I think it's about like, how do you converge that part of you that feels a little bit like, ooh, how do I put this out on stage and make content about it?

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  I love that you bring up like characters and stories and shows and movies. I immediately thought of Walter White in Breaking Bad, where the whole time we're watching this series, this guy's getting darker and darker. But people still empathize with him because you feel like he's doing this all for his family. People hate his wife more, even though he's a drug dealer killing people. And you know, like, his wife is like sensible, trying to tell him like, you know, like, maybe you should stop killing people.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  And we're all like, shut up. Yeah. Let him get out, back out there, do more violence.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  But then when you look at that perspective, it's like me sharing that, you know, I'm a bit prideful when people give me advice when they're less experienced. It's not as bad as being a murderer, you know, like, it's fine. I'm going to survive sharing that with the world. So I love that. We've covered so much today, Dane. You've given so much great value and helped our audience. Here at the $100 MBA Show, we're all about being practical, taking action. What is one action you want our listeners to do as soon as they finish this episode?

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Ooh, one action. If there were one action each viewer of today's episode would be is what I'm about to go through right now. Like, give yourself a minute to go through this metaphorical exercise. We can do this right now. So Amar, like, let's, and viewers, close your eyes. I want you to imagine you're in the cockpit of a Boeing 747. And you're looking around at this beautiful ornate dashboard and all these dials. You've got this cool headset on and it's just you in the cockpit. And behind the door, behind you, is your whole family onboard. And you know, at the end of the runway, you're going to take off and you're going to fly to the destination of your dreams. Now, I want you to think about, what is that place?

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Think about that place. It's three to five years from now. And when you arrive, who's there? Where are you? How much money's in the bank? What are you doing? What are you wearing? Do you have a business? People working for you? Like, just take a moment to, like, think about what that place is. Then you look at the windshield on the dashboard of this Boeing 747 and the window's painted black. And you need to take off. And what happens is all the fear comes up. Well, I can't see the runway. Am I flying straight? I don't really know how to fly a plane yet. What happens if we crash and burn? What happens if we die? What happens if it doesn't work? Well, what happens if you don't take off? So every time you want to build something, it's like flying down that runway. There's only one way to do it.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Foot to the gas, to the floor, and get as much speed as possible, and then yank that joystick back. There's only one way to get altitude, and that's speed. Speed in the right direction. Now, the metaphor here is, as that plane starts to take off, what does a plane need to take off? It needs resistance.

• 1:23:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  It needs winds. If you want to succeed in business, you need resistance. You need winds. You need headwind. You need things to push against you so you can create lift. If nothing's pushing against you, you're not learning anything. You're not growing. You're not adapting. You're not twisting and contorting yourself to fit the market. You need resistance. Then, as the plane starts to take off, the windshield paint starts to strip back. You start to see a crack. Like, oh my God, there's clouds ahead. I don't know what clouds they are. I don't know where I am compared to the ground, but I'm not running toward a tree line anymore. I'm at least looking at my goals. The hardest thing in business is to start. If you look at the equation of fuel economy on a flight, it's between 30 to 40% of the fuel is burned, getting to altitude.

• 1:24:02Speaker 00

  Ooh.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  So most of the fuel, by the time, the next time you're in an airport and you get on the plane, get to altitude. Let me just imagine, 40% of the fuel tank's empty, gone, just to get to altitude. And you're still flying over the city. Yet, you can fly from, like, Sydney to Dubai, or New York to London, on the remaining 60% of the fuel. Almost on autopilot. And guess what happens after all the resistance lifts you up to altitude? There's nowhere near as much resistance and you can kind of cruise. Occasionally, you get turbulence. Occasionally, you think you're going to die. But every now and then, you're like, course corrects and the car comes back out and you can eat another Mars bar or get another wine or some cheese and crackers. Business is like this. Like, business is tough. The thing you know you need to be doing, like, start. Like, all-out war.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  Like, pedal to the metal and pull that joystick, because, like, it's you in the cockpit. No one else is flying the plane. No one's on the radio trying to help you. Your family, depending on you, your kids, your wife, your spouse, your colleagues, your team members, they're all looking at you to go, I hope he doesn't crash the plane. That's what it feels like to be an entrepreneur, a content creator, somebody who creates something different. But you have to get comfortable being the pilot. You're not the co-pilot. You're not a passenger on this journey. You're the pilot. You're choosing your destination. Now, what happens if you fly 13 degrees in the wrong direction? Course corrected.

• 1:25:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Mid-flight. So many people spend their journey trying to get the right direction before they hit the runway. The runway usually only puts them one direction, and sometimes it's the wrong direction.

• 1:25:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's loop around.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  You can loop around, but like, take off. Like, my business, my first business was like a content creation agency, which I hated. I flew in the wrong direction. But like, when I was at altitude, I was like, well, I got money in the bank. Those clients will like me. Let's just turn the plane in the other direction. And let's do branding instead. People just need to start. Like, if I could let anyone do anything, it's just like, just hit the gas, man. Like, take the chance.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Take the risk. In the worst case, crash into the trees, get back out again. You're not going to die, because it's a business.

• 1:25:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  It's just content. It's not a real scenario.

• 1:25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  And then get on another plane and do it again.

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Life is way too short not to go for it. I love it.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Speaker 00

  I love that exercise. I got a couple of other pieces of homework for everybody who's listening, watching. Number one, check out the Agency Podcast by Dane Walker. It's an amazing podcast. It's got over 1.5 million subscribers on YouTube. Number two, download the exercise we did on the whiteboard with the imposter syndrome, so that you can do that as well. And number three, you got to pick up Dane's book, The 90 Day Brand Plan. I was introduced to this book about a year ago when I met you in Manly at the Dane Martell's and Taki's event. And you did some of the exercises in this book on the whiteboard. And I thought they were, like, really practical. And like, wow, this is so good to do, even for branding a new product that you're coming out in your business. So, awesome, easy read. Give it an order on Amazon.

• 1:26:51Speaker 00

  Dane, it's been amazing to have you on the show.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:26:54Speaker 00

  I had a lot of fun. And thanks for playing along with us with all the games.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you, man. You're a ton of fun. I appreciate you so much, dude.

• 1:26:59Speaker 00

  Love it, man. Take care.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Bye for now.

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  If you found today's episode helpful and you want more practical business lessons to help start, grow, and scale your business, subscribe to the podcast. All you got to do is hit subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app, the one that you're using right now. By hitting subscribe, you get our next episode automatically. It's absolutely free and it's a way for you to commit to growing your business. I'll check you in the next episode.

• 1:27:29Speaker 03

  What do I gift my mom and nieces?

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  Walmart has top brands you know, like Ninja, Disney, Lego.

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  Sonos can bring his songs to life with sound that hits just right.

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  And my coffee-obsessed bestie?

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  They love his brews coffee right for mornings extra bright.

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  All those great brands at Walmart? Who knew?

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  We knew, now you do too. Shop gifts, no love at Walmart.