24: The Delphi Murders: Did They Get the Wrong Guy?

Few cases have left a mark quite like the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Two best friends, just 13 and 14 years old, went out for a simple afternoon walk on the trails in Delphi, Indiana and never returned. What followed was a mystery that gripped the nation for years, filled with haunting audio, chilling images, endless speculation, and five agonizing years before an arrest was finally made. But the arrest was only the beginning. Since then, the case has unraveled into a storm of alleged confessions, leaked evidence, shocking jail calls, courtroom drama, and a divided public questioning whether the right person is behind bars. Today, we are diving back in to untangle the chaos, examine the evidence from every angle, and confront the unsettling question that still lingers: has justice truly been served?. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected].📚 Episode Sources ABC News | CBS Chicago | CNBC Television | Court TV | Fox 59 News | Good Morning America | IndyStar | KTALNews | Law & Crime | The Indiana Court of Appeals | The Indiana Supreme Court | WANE 15 | WAVE News | WISH TV | WLFITV | WLWT | WPTA 21Alive | WTHR ••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

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• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey Richmond, Mark Smith, Midas Richmond, 2026. We have been doing what we do for 29 years. Total car care, total community care. In 2026, we are donating $365,000. A thousand dollars a day to the nonprofits we've historically supported. Gooch and Care, Shalom Farms, St. Joseph's Villa, Ask, the Colonial Heights Food Pantry, everybody we've helped over the years. These are important things making a big impact in our society right now. Total car care, total community care, that is Midas of Richmond.

• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. It's the tangiest time of the year. For a limited time, head to McDonald's and get a McRib sandwich. Make it a meal by adding a medium fries and a soft drink like an ice cold Diet Dr. Pepper. So grab a McRib sandwich and embrace the tang. Save time by ordering ahead on the app. Participate in McDonald's for a limited time. Dr. Pepper is a registered trademark of Dr. Pepper, 7-Up, Inc.

• 1:24Annie Elise?

  Of all of the cases that we've covered over here on 10 to Life, there are very few that are more publicized, more controversial, or more heartbreaking than the case we're talking about today. And it is the case of the brutal murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Abby and Libby, they were best friends and they were only 13 and 14 years old when their lives were viciously taken from them. Taken from them when they were out on what should have just been a normal, happy walk along the trails in Delphi, Indiana. And one of the most shocking things about this case is how long it took for an arrest to even happen. Despite massive searches and despite intense public attention, I mean, it took five years before anybody was arrested.

• 2:10Annie Elise?

  Five years. I mean, that is a lot of time for rumors to spread, for people to start questioning the investigation, and also for some extremely sketchy characters to just like crawl out of the woodwork. Now, the last time that we covered this case, it was back in 2023, when a suspect was finally arrested. But since then, this case has literally exploded. There has not only been a huge trial, but a huge country or, you know, world divided. Because yes, many people believe that justice has finally been served for Abby and Libby, but others are convinced that the police, they got the wrong guy. And in the meantime, there's also been leaked photos, crazy

• 2:51Annie Elise?

  jail calls, recorded confessions, rumors about cults, alleged setups. I mean, it has been absolute chaos. Also, when I was out on my live tour last fall, one of the most highly requested cases that I reopen and reexamine is this case, the Delphi murders. Just because I think how controversial it is and how so many people do believe that they got it all wrong, that Richard Allen isn't the guy, that it's somebody else entirely. So today, we are reopening this case and we are breaking down everything. The suspect, the confessions, the trial, also the evidence on both sides of the argument. This case is incredibly complex and incredibly controversial. So my goal

• 3:35Annie Elise?

  today isn't to tell you to believe one thing over the other, but rather it's to break down all of the facts and really walk you through the arguments on both sides and determine what you think is true. As always, I encourage you to please do your own research, form your own opinions, come to your own conclusions, and please keep it civil in the comment section over on YouTube as well. The ultimate goal is always to honor Abby and Libby by telling their story. And I think we can all agree that that can't accurately and successfully happen when other people are just like attacking one another. So please keep it respectful, even though I know that there are a lot of very passionate opinions out there. Also, as a quick reminder, in these reopened episodes, we revisit the original deep dive and then we drop in every new

• 4:20Annie Elise?

  Update along the way. I also will jump on and give some hindsight as to previous things that I've stated or shared, or if my opinions have changed. So you may hear some differences in the audio just due to the equipment changing over time. But so, you know, also in one of my very first episodes, when I ever cover this case, I completely mispronounced Delphi, Indiana, and I called it Delphi, Indiana. So you might hear that a little bit, too. It is Delphi. So bear with me, bear with past Annie on that. Give her a little bit of grace. She doesn't always get the city names right. That was very, very early on. Like, that was even before 2023. I think that that was like, I don't even, it was forever ago. So anyway, with that said, we have a lot to get into today. So get ready, because this is a really complicated one.

• 5:04Annie Elise?

  I'm Annie Elise. This is 10 to Life, and today we are reopening the Delphi murders. Let's jump right in.

• 5:22Annie Elise?

  Abby Williams and Libby German were two best friends living in Delphi, Indiana. Abby was 14 years old and Libby was 13 years old. And Abby was apparently an absolute animal lover. I am talking, she loved everything outdoors. She loved all sorts of animals and just was, you know, one with nature. She lived with her mom full time and loved spending time with her grandparents as well. And Libby, Libby was described as just the sweetest and kindest little girl. She lived with her grandparents and with her sister Kelsey, who she was extremely close with. And she was just a pretty happy-go-lucky little girl. So the two of them were best friends and they went to middle school together and really just had all of the same common interests.

• 6:07Annie Elise?

  They were excited about the upcoming softball season. They were excited about playing the saxophone, which it's like, how hard is it to find somebody else who loves playing the saxophone at a young age like that? They loved photography, painting, really just everything. Any hobbies that one of them had, the other loved equally as much. So the two of them spent so much time together and they really were truly. Just the best of friends. Now Delphi, Indiana, let's talk a little bit about that location. Delphi is a very small town in Indiana. It's less than three square miles in size and has less than 3,000 residents, according to a census that was done back in 2019. So a very, very tight-knit community. And that's where they loved, that's where they grew up and

• 6:51Annie Elise?

  everybody was friendly with each other and it was just, you know, reportedly a great town to be a part of. But on February 12th, 2017, everything would just start to unravel and rock these two little girls' world and their families' lives. So on February 12th, the two little girls decided to have a sleepover at Libby's grandparents' house. The next day was actually going to be a school holiday from unused snow days. So they wanted to hang out, have a sleepover, and then spend the entire next day together. So they ended up spending that evening with Libby's older sister, Kelsey. They hung out with Kelsey, ate pizza, stayed up, and just had, you know, a typical girls' sleepover night. You're watching movies, you're talking about boys, you're, you know, messaging people, you're eating pizza,

• 7:36Annie Elise?

  just like an innocent, happy sleepover. But they had absolutely no idea what the next day would bring. The next morning, they woke up and they enjoyed pancakes for breakfast and they then just started their day. They helped Libby's grandma Becky actually with filing, some of her filing work because they wanted to make a little extra money, possibly go shopping later that day. So they did this, they helped with the filing, but then they decided that they wanted to head out and go enjoy the day outside. And they wanted to go to Monin High Bridge Trail. And this trail was essentially like the spot for teenagers to hang out at. We all had one. We already, we, everybody had one in high school and even in middle school. And here, everyone always wanted to hang out there and it was really well-known.

• 8:20Annie Elise?

  It was an old abandoned railway bridge and it had trails all along it. And it was just the spot that people would go to. So Abby and Libby asked Grandma Becky if they could go. And Grandma Becky told them that they could go, but only if they could find rides to and from the trail. She did not want them walking on their own. So Libby asked her sister Kelsey if she would take them. And Kelsey initially had said no, she had afternoon plans with her boyfriend that later that day, but then she ended up having a little bit of guilt for not spending a ton of time with Libby. So she says, you know, I'll take you guys and I'll drop you off if you can find a ride home. So then Libby decided to call her dad Derek, who happened to actually be taking photos of Grandma Becky later that day. And she asked him if he could pick them up. Her father Derek said that once he was done with Grandma Becky, he would pick them

• 9:04Annie Elise?

  up and that it would be approximately, you know, two hours in total. So now Libby and Abby had their rides. They were gonna head out to the trail and have a fun day out away from school. School was closed and they were just gonna enjoy the outside. So they all piled into Kelsey's car around 1:30 PM and Kelsey drove them to the trail. On the way, Kelsey had received a phone call from her boyfriend while she was on her way to drop the girls off. So she takes the call around 1:38 PM and then she was still on the phone with her boyfriend around 1:40 PM when she dropped the girls off at the entrance to this trail. So she made sure that both girls had their jackets and Kelsey and Libby told each other that I love you because their family always made sure to voice their love for one another.

• 9:47Annie Elise?

  And she stayed watching the girls enter the trail before then driving off. At 2:05 PM, Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat story of the bridge. And then she posted another photo at 2:07 PM, just two minutes later, of Abby walking on the bridge. And at some point, Libby began taking a video on her cellphone through her camera roll app, you know, the video app. And in the beginning of the video, they were talking about, you know, typical teenage stuff, just girl stuff. But then in the video, you can actually see a man walking with blue jeans and a jacket on and he's walking along the bridge. But the angle of the video almost makes it seem like Libby took this video of the man behind

• 10:29Annie Elise?

  her. Then you hear the guy say, guys, down the hill.

• 10:36Speaker 04

  What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachael Demita, here to tell you about my show Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Katelyn Clark's unstoppable rise in the WNBA? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us. Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Oui et nah.

• 11:11Annie Elise?

  Now, since our last update, the entire video that Libby took has been released, and it really does give us more insight into the girls' last moments.

• 11:34Speaker 05

  See, this is the path that we are on.

• 11:43Speaker 05

  Um, there's no path going there, so we have to go down here.

• 12:03Annie Elise?

  So, who was this man? It seems as though she was purposely videoing him. Was this something that she was doing for her own safety to like video him to make sure he was on film? Was she doing it out of fear? Why was she filming this man? And more importantly, who was he? And why was he telling them to go down the hill? And this was the last time that the girls were ever seen alive. At 3:11 PM, about an hour and a half since they were dropped off at the trail, Libby's dad Derek called Libby's phone to let her know that he was getting close and he was going to be there to pick her up. But there was no answer on her phone. So he pulled into the parking lot at 3:14 PM, and then he called her. Again, there was still no answer. And the girls were also not at the meetup spot that they had originally agreed upon.

• 12:47Annie Elise?

  So obviously, her dad Derek is very concerned, because what teenage girl is not answering her phone or her text messages? Especially this day and age when teens are literally always on the phone. And we know that she was very active on her phone, on Snapchat, posting photos, taking videos, all of these things. So Libby wasn't the type of girl to just blow off family phone calls or texts either. So Derek decided he was going to walk these trails and see if he could find the girls, because something felt wrong here. Derek passed a man who was in a flannel on the trails and asked him if he had seen the two girls. Guy said that he did not, but that he did see a couple up there. Now, this area was an intersection of the trail where the 505 and 501 trail meet. So when this man in the flannel shirt, whose name has never officially been released,

• 13:32Annie Elise?

  said that he didn't see the girls, Derek decided to take one of those paths, the 505 trail, thinking that maybe they must have gotten on that one instead. But when he couldn't find them on that trail, he became much more concerned and knew that something was not right. He called Becky, Libby's grandmother, and asked her if she could try to get ahold of Libby. And Grandma Becky was actually with Libby's Aunt Tara at the time. So they began calling Libby, trying to get in touch with her, texting her, but they had no luck. They were completely unsuccessful. So then Derek, as he's continuing to search these trails, decides that he's going to check the Freedom Bridge Trail, and this was part of the area. But the girls weren't there either. And this was frightening.

• 14:14Annie Elise?

  He was extremely nervous, and this is when the family started freaking out. Nobody was answering their phone calls. Nobody was answering their text messages. He couldn't find them anywhere. It's beginning to start to get dark. This is a problem, and they are panicking at this point. Where were these two young girls? Something had to be seriously wrong for them not to answer their phones and not to show up at the meeting spot. So Grandma Becky calls Libby's Grandpa Mike, who left work to come and see if he could help. And Grandma Becky also called Libby's sister Kelsey to let her know that they needed help searching for these girls. So Kelsey immediately leaves her boyfriend's house, who she had plans with that afternoon. She called into work and she went to help search.

• 14:57Annie Elise?

  Everyone made their way over to these trails to go and search for these girls. Kelsey and her Uncle Cody were paired together, and they were searching the southeast end of the bridge. They were actually near a private property and spent about 20 to 30 minutes yelling the girls' names, just trying to search for them anywhere they could be. Kelsey also called Libby's phone, thinking that if Libby was there, she would hear the phone, since it was relatively quiet outside. And Grandma Becky spent her time calling AT&T to see if they could ping Libby's phone, to see if there was a known location. But of course, cellphone companies get very, very finicky about this kind of stuff. And, you know, legally, they're not able to give you the ping until they have a formal

• 15:39Annie Elise?

  request from the police, so this was unsuccessful. Grandma Becky even tried downloading certain apps like Find My Phone, things like that, but she realized that it wouldn't have worked because Libby didn't have those apps installed on her phone. So now hours have gone by, guys, and at 5:20 PM, literally over two hours later, the family decides it's time to call the police and report the girls as missing. By 6 PM, news had gotten around that small town, and people were obviously freaking out. It was a very small town, and how could these two girls just mysteriously vanish in such a small town where everyone seemingly knew everyone? And the big positive about living in such a small town was definitely the sense of

• 16:21Annie Elise?

  community, because everybody rallied together and started volunteering and searching for these girls, trying to crowdsource information, trying to hit the trails, trying to do anything they could to figure out what had happened. Police were paying so much attention to this investigation. They were not letting a minute slip by. They had Libby's grandpa, Mike, go back to his house and get every single electronic device from that house so that they could search it. They were also beginning to process that formal request for AT&T to ping the cellphones. So not only were volunteers and police on the ground searching, they had also pulled out drones, there were firefighters, there were even trained water personnel out there searching.

• 17:03Annie Elise?

  But by midnight, it became way too dangerous to continue the search, given how dark it was and given how woodsy the area is. So law enforcement called off the official, physical search of the girls with plans to resume the search the following day. And at this point, they had said that they did not suspect any sort of foul play, because at that point, they really didn't have much to go off of. But still, this is so scary. You're now closing out the day, you're calling off the search, there's two young teens out there missing, even if There isn't any sort of foul play to be suspected. You know something is wrong and then to just as a family member try to go through the night or sleep that night, which you're obviously not sleeping, but knowing that nobody's out

• 17:45Annie Elise?

  there searching it's that has to be just extremely devastating. The police continued working on pinging the phones, but at some point the phone had died, meaning that there were not going to be any sort of updated pings done or in the area or anywhere for that matter. And even though that official search was called off, it didn't stop the family, the volunteers or the firefighters, and they all stayed and searched throughout the night. And that is again, just a huge testament to the sense of community in this town. That morning, the search was called back on and more and more volunteers were showing up and helping with the search efforts. They were being split up into search groups and then they had a meeting at a command center that was set up to where everybody would go and then get distributed and then

• 18:30Annie Elise?

  come back and report back information. Well, at around 12:15 PM, footsteps led searchers to a horrible discovery. And it was the discovery of the bodies of Abby and Libby. A volunteer searcher had found a shoe of Libby's and when he looked up, there were actually two deer in the grass. As he got closer, he saw the two girls laying in between the trees in the woods. The girls were found on a private property near the high bridge and they were about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek, which wasn't far from where Abby and Libby had actually initially been dropped off. But it was also somewhere that they would not have wandered off and gone on their own. By 2:00 PM, law enforcement had a press conference stating that they did in fact find

• 19:13Annie Elise?

  two bodies, but they did not confirm that it was Abby and Libby. And from there, the FBI immediately got involved. Autopsies began on February 15th in Indiana and a positive identification was made on both girls and then the search was officially over. From there, this now turned into a double homicide investigation. On February 22nd, a press conference was held about the murders and law enforcement pleaded with the public to come forward with any information that they had. They assured the public that The investigation was just getting started so that they needed to be patient and that they would absolutely not give up and they would find whoever was responsible for these two deaths. They also released the audio clip to the public during this press conference.

• 19:58Annie Elise?

  In July of 2017, they ended up releasing a sketch of who they believed to be the suspect. Tips continued to come in, but no real leads were generated. For over a year and a half after that sketch was released, investigators combed through thousands of tips, but nothing generated. And on April 22nd, 2019, over a year and a half later, in a press conference, investigators replaced the original sketch. And this was a brand-new sketch, but who was this person in this brand-new sketch who looked entirely different from the person in the first sketch? It caused a lot of controversy and people were, of course, very, very upset by this.

• 20:42Annie Elise?

  And they were very confused, wondering how something like this could have happened. How the first sketch could look so much like one person and now it's being replaced with this new sketch who looks like somebody completely different? Had they been looking for the wrong person this entire time? Then, after years of essentially no new information, the case seemed to ramp up again after a new person of interest entered the public eye. Twenty-nine-year-old Keegan Klein was an internet catfish that would use various fake accounts to chat with underage girls. It was also discovered that he was actually chatting with Libby the day of the murders and had even told another girl that he was supposed to meet up with Libby that very day. Keegan was later arrested and charged with possessing child material and given 43 years

• 21:26Annie Elise?

  in prison, but since then, he has been ruled out as a suspect in the murders of Abby and Libby. Many people believed that the fact that an online predator just happened to be the last person to speak with Libby before the murders was too coincidental. Some thought that even if Keegan didn't commit the crimes himself, that he was somehow connected to the real killer. And some people thought that the real killer was right under the police's noses the entire time. It turns out- That Abby and Libby's bodies were found on property belonging to a man named Ron Logan. And Ron's history, it was not exactly squeaky clean. On March 8, 2017, law enforcement interviewed an ex-girlfriend of Ron's. The two of them hadn't spoken in two years prior to this interview that law enforcement had with her.

• 22:11Annie Elise?

  And this woman had actually told law enforcement in this interview that she had left Ron because he became physically abusive. She alleged that he had actually gone so far as to drag her out of the car by her hair. She said that once she left Ron, he stalked her and he harassed her. And Ron's alibi for where he was at the time of the murders, it turned out to be really sketchy. On February 14th, the day that the girls were found, Ron called his cousin and asked him to tell the police that he had picked up Ron around 2:00 to 2:30 in the afternoon on the 13th, which was the day of the murders, more specifically, the afternoon of the murders. And he asked his cousin to say that he had picked him up to take him to an aquarium store in Lafayette

• 22:56Annie Elise?

  and that then they returned to the house around 5:00 or 5:30 that night. Now, what was Ron doing that he needed his cousin to lie for him and provide him with an alibi? When law enforcement searched Ron's phone, they found that at 2:09 PM, just two minutes after Libby posted the photo of Abby walking, Ron's phone made a call. They could not confirm his exact location, but the phone appeared to be in or around his property and around High Bridge where the girls went missing. He then sent a text at 7:56 PM, the night of the murder. The analysis of the phone showed that he was likely outside of his actual house and in the area where the girls' bodies were found.

• 23:37Annie Elise?

  He also received a text that night at 10:16 PM, that same night of the murder. And yet again, the analysis of the phone showed that he was likely outside of his actual house and in the area where the girls were found on his property. Perhaps this is when he was moving the bodies or was finishing staging them. But as compelling as that evidence was, Ron was never arrested or even named as a suspect. And that's because in 2022- Ron actually died from COVID. So as other suspects came to light after his death, many people started to believe that Ron had nothing to do with the girls at all. But other people aren't so sure, with some even claiming that Ron actually confessed to the murders. But now that Ron has passed away,

• 24:21Annie Elise?

  we may never know the full truth about whether he had any involvement. But honestly, I have to say, regardless of who committed the murders, it is pretty insane how many gross men these two innocent girls crossed paths with in like a single day. I mean, there was a known child predator actively trying to set up a meeting with Libby on the day of the murders. And then both girls are found on a property belonging to a man with a history of domestic violence, who was also lying about his alibi. So even if neither Keegan nor Ron was the girl's killer, it's crazy that these poor girls were even near them on the day of their murder. It's just such a scary reminder of how many dangerous people are truly out there hiding in plain sight. But with Keegan apparently ruled out and Ron dead,

• 25:05Annie Elise?

  the investigators were basically back to square one. And there was intense pressure from the public to finally find Abby and Libby's real killer. And then finally, on October 26th, 2022, more than five years after the murders, there was finally a huge break in the case. Police announced the arrest of a new suspect, a man named Richard Allen, a 50-year-old CVS worker from Delphi.

• 25:33Speaker 06

  So I do have prepared remarks, but today is different because I do not want there to be any confusion or ambiguity with what I will say. Today is not a day to celebrate.

• 25:46Speaker 06

  But the arrest of Richard M. Allen of Delphi on two counts of murder is sure a major step in leading to the conclusion of this long-term and complex investigation.

• 25:58Annie Elise?

  And as it turns out, the name Richard Allen, it wasn't new to the police either. Richard actually gave a voluntary statement to investigators just a couple of days after the murders. He admitted to being on the bridge that day, but he said that he was just there to walk around.

• 26:13Speaker 07

  Can you almost understand what was going on on Monday, February 13th? Can you kind of tell us what you were doing that day and every day the girls? Okay, on the trail. Good.

• 26:33Speaker 07

  I went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico, earlier in the day.

• 26:43Speaker 07

  I think my mom had had hip surgery back then or something, but regardless, my wife was working pro now there, but today, not today, I spent the morning with them.

• 26:54Speaker 07

  My sister would come over and they were gonna go eat lunch and stuff and I wasn't about that, so I went home.

• 27:05Speaker 07

  And I remember it was a fairly, fairly warm day, or warmer than normal, so.

• 27:12Speaker 07

  I think I just put a jacket on and went back out to the trails.

• 27:19Speaker 07

  Usually we had a, when we'd go, we'd walk down to High Bridge and walk back and walk down the other side and come back. I mean, it wasn't a ritual, but I remember walking down home to the bridge.

• 27:35Speaker 07

  The time, they believe.

• 27:39Speaker 07

  I left my mom, probably around eleven, eleven fifteen.

• 27:45Speaker 07

  So I think I would have been out there.

• 27:50Speaker 07

  Cause I didn't do anything else, it would have been around noon, I thought, is when I was out there. Walked down to High Bridge. Always went out just a little ways, a little way, went out a little ways and watched the fish.

• 28:05Speaker 07

  See if I seen any fish down there, cause I like fishing and walked back and sat on the, when you turn around and go down the other fork, there's a bench that overlooks and sat there for a few minutes and.

• 28:20Speaker 07

  Walked down the, walked back out and left. I think I was there probably.

• 28:27Speaker 07

  Around noon, it could have been a little before noon or a little after noon.

• 28:34Speaker 07

  Walked down back an hour, so probably.

• 28:39Speaker 07

  1:30, 1:45, depending on exactly what time it was that I got there that day. I just remember walking down the trail and I told him that when I was approaching the trail, the trailhead, I guess is what I call it, there was three girls walking off the trail. And I just remember it looking like one of them was probably watching, maybe, watching the other two because they looked a little younger. And they looked very similar. I don't know if they were sisters or whatever, but the other one didn't necessarily. But I remember seeing them walking off the trailhead. And I didn't really see anybody.

• 29:23Speaker 07

  I walked down, like I said, I looked at the water, I walked back and I sat, I mean, somebody had walked behind me, I guess, but I sat on that bench that overlooks the creek bed and all that.

• 29:36Annie Elise?

  But the evidence started stacking up against Richard pretty quickly. For starters, the clothes that Richard admitted he was wearing that day, they just so happened to match exactly what the man in Libby's bridge video was wearing. There were also surveillance photos of a black 2016 Ford Focus that had been parked outside the trails that day, the day of the murders. And it turns out that in all of Delphi in 2017, there was only one black 2016 Ford Focus. And it was registered to Richard Allen.

• 30:06Speaker 07

  There's a lot here that we need to get clarified. Okay? As you well know, we have pictures of an individual who was on the bridge. And to some great degree, you described that individual as wearing, yourself is wearing a blue jean, a jacket of the same color as that. He described a hat, hard to distinguish, but they're tan brown. Okay? And this is a picture was taken with the phone of one of the girls. Okay, I understand that. And the question needs to be, is that you?

• 30:47Speaker 07

  If it was taken with the girl's phone, that is absolutely, I mean, it's not me, but I never have met these girls before, so even if I thought it looked like me, if it was taken with the girl's phone, there's no way it could be. I've never met them. I've never seen them. This, this image, this person right here, he's wearing like a Carhartt jacket, just like you just told us. Okay. He's wearing the same clothing that you just told us. We, we just need to know what happened. Why? Sure. He, I mean, I said I was wearing blue jeans. Now, I think blue jeans is a pretty common thing that people wear. Sure. And I said I was probably wearing a black or a blue coat. It could have been

• 31:28Speaker 07

  a Carhartt, a zip-up with a hoodie in it. I've had black ones. I've had a blue one, or a blue one, and a black one. What, I guess, you know, pretending what I told you I was wearing and saying that that's me in it, so, so you're kind of, in your search, you literally want me to, like, that is a, you want me to say that's my car? We look at, we're no way to car. It matches everything. That's not, that is your car. Okay. Well, I'm saying that picture, it's like, okay, I. Yeah, no, that, that, they're zeroed out. Well, that's, I don't even, okay, that's fine. We're showing you what we have and why we need to eliminate you.

• 32:07Annie Elise?

  And then there was a witness who saw someone matching Richard's description walking along the side of the road on the day of the murders. They saw this person covered in mud and blood.

• 32:16Speaker 07

  They have people that saw you. Okay. Ricky said you were out on the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me. I mean, I'm sure I didn't miss that many people. They walked behind me, I guess. You said that you were out on the bridge, this bridge, yourself, that day around the time when this happened. No, I didn't. You said you walked out onto the bridge. When we talked to you earlier, you said that you walked out to about the first platform or within that area of that bridge. That's what she told us. So we know that you were on the bridge. Of course I was, okay. And with that, you know, we can, we can say that, is this person you? That's, that's the question. Is that person you? That's the question we have to answer. Sure, okay?

• 33:01Speaker 07

  So if that person is you, we know this person followed the girls all the way to the other side of the bridge, and then told them, go down the hill. The question is, is this you? No. Okay, so you're telling me that, uh, this person was out there on the bridge and wore the same clothing that you had that day? But you didn't see them. You can't tell that's a black carhartt coat, a blue carhartt coat, a pullover. I told you I could have been wearing this. But these, that, the two, the two kinds of clothing you said you wore that day was, uh, a, either a black carhartt coat or a blue carhartt coat. Okay, you said that. Oh geez, right, okay.

• 33:44Speaker 07

  And I've had a comparison. Okay, so put yourself in my chair. I, I guess what I'm saying is I don't, I'm not gonna tell you I wasn't wearing a black carhartt that day. I told you I could have been. I don't know if that's a black carhartt, and if it is, it's not mine, it is.

• 34:02Speaker 07

  And you said you have a hat you normally wear, a skull cap that's covered. I said I carry one. So if I was wearing one, it would be like a skull cap or a smaller type of hat or something, okay? So this is the situation we're in, okay? Basically this. Either you were out there to do this to the girls, or you were out there to be able to introduce the girls to somebody else, okay? Good luck finding anything that points in that direction. I mean, it's not me, you're not gonna make me believe it's me. You're not gonna find anything that ties me to those murders, so I'm not really that concerned. You know, you, you went from trying to, I don't know what you want to say, get my.

• 34:45Annie Elise?

  After the initial interrogation, police got a search warrant for Richard's house and car. And inside, they found a jacket, matching the one seen in the bridge video, a huge collection of knives, and also over twenty different cell phones, which, why the hell would anyone need that many cell phones, right? They also found a gun, specifically, a Sig Sauer handgun. And this was a huge red flag, because an unspent bullet was found at the crime scene between the two girls' bodies. And according to police, that bullet was a perfect match for Richard's gun.

• 35:25Speaker 06

  I want to talk about the results of your handgun, okay? So, we took your gun, your forty caliber Sig, and we sent it down to the lab to have it match with an item that we located on February the fourteenth, when we found the girls. Okay. And that item was a forty caliber Winchester round. We found that at the scene. Okay. The extraction marks on that round match your gun. Okay. So... This is... Just, hear me out, I'm just trying to... I am. So, this is the round, okay? Those are the extraction marks. That's the best picture of them.

• 36:10Speaker 06

  There's actually three of them. That's the other, that's the similar round that we found, okay? And like I said, the methodology that they use is scientific, and they were telling me, and this is the report, you can read it, if you wish. I don't need to read it. Okay. Well, I'm just trying to help you. Let me tell you something. You know, the prosecutor and the other investigators, they want to, they want to see you lock, lock you up, throw away the key. I don't think you're ridiculous. Listen, just listen to me for two minutes. Let me explain this to you. I'm on your side. I talked to you a little bit out there on the scene. I know.

• 36:52Speaker 06

  I know you mentioned a couple times, you don't want to be the fall guy for this. You also mentioned to me the other day, when I was telling you, hey, I want to check the property out, make sure there's no damage, and you... You said, doesn't matter, it's over. You know, you made comments like that to me that really concerned me. Sure. Right. It's concerning. What I mean by it's over is that you've already started something here that there's no backing out of, so. You done, the damage is done, I guess is what I'm saying. That's what I would have been referring to. Okay, and I agree with that. We have started this. We've been working on this for a long time and all the evidence is clearly indicating you're involved in this. And listen to me, Rick, I don't believe you're the, you should be the fall guy.

• 37:32Speaker 06

  But all the evidence, you say you're out there, we have witnesses out there, we have your vehicle, we have experts. We have experts that say that's you on the video and that's your voice on the video. Okay. Experts, not me. I got you. Okay, and now we have your round. At the scene. Not on the bridge, you said you're on the bridge.

• 37:54Speaker 06

  I don't even know how my bullet would have gotten out there if that's my bullet. There's, it's without a doubt that this is very. Okay. Scientific. So let me show you a picture of this round where it was found.

• 38:09Speaker 06

  That's the round right there. It hadn't been out there very long. That is Liberty's foot. It's within six inches. Of, of one of the dead girl's bodies. There's no way. I'm telling you, there's not. How, how did, how did that round get there, Rick? I don't know how the round got there. What I'm telling you is if that is truly what you're saying it is. It's not my, it's not my round.

• 38:37Speaker 06

  The scientific experts are saying, I got a report saying that that round came from your. Okay, but understand this. You were on the bridge. I told you I was on the bridge. Listen, right now, like I said, I got a prosecutor and investigators right now, lock you up. And if you don't give us a narrative, if you don't tell us your side of the story, there's two sides to every story. Hang on.

• 39:00Speaker 06

  I'm trying to help you. I, I get that. The media is gonna portray you as this monster and you don't want your. And it's already gonna get there anyway, so. Yeah, so this is your chance to tell us exactly what. Unlike some, some people, most. People, I care what people think about me and. Then you do. You've already set that ball rolling. Yeah, but there's only one way to get out in front of it, and that's to tell the truth. What happened that day to? I can't tell you what happened that day. You can tell us. There's no doubt in my mind that the evidence clearly indicates that you're involved in this. Are you the, are you the? Mastermind behind this? I don't know. Mastermind, okay. Did somebody else set this up? I don't know, Rick. I wanna know. And only you know. The truth will set you free, that's it. Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 06

  The truth will protect you from the. Well, that's what I would have thought. Well, tell the truth. Tell me how this round got next to one of our girls, in between both girls. I don't know. You do know. And if you don't tell me, you're going down for this. Hmm, okay.

• 40:02Speaker 06

  Uh, the only person I think can explain all this is you, and you're not explaining it to me. I don't know what it is you want me to explain. What were you doing on the bridge? How did your round get there? And why did you kill these two girls? And why were you involved in this? What was your involvement? I had no. I don't think, Rick, listen, Rick, I don't think you're the one that, that, that killed them. I don't think you're the one that stuck the knife in them. Are you? I do. Are you that guy? Really? Are you?

• 40:33Speaker 06

  I, anybody that knows me knows I could never, even if I wanted to do something like that. That's not who I am. Then what happened? I can't tell you. How do you expect me to tell you? You want me to make up a story and, and? No, the truth. The truth is simple. You don't have to make that up. You just go back and tell me the truth. I, I told you. That this event has not been weighing on you for years and years and years. You're out there.

• 40:59Speaker 06

  I've told you that. I, I don't know what you want me to do at this point. I did not murder two. And I don't think you realize the severity of this. You, you realize the death penalty is on the table for this? You know what? I don't really care about living at this point. I've dealt with not wanting to live for seven, eight years now. It's been a long fucking battle. And with what you guys have done to me? Kill me, I don't give a fuck. You'll make my wife rich. So is there a reason why you have this?

• 41:29Speaker 06

  This round in your little keepsake box?

• 41:36Speaker 06

  You, what kind of ammo did you have for your Sig? I don't know. Blazer?

• 41:43Speaker 06

  I don't know. I'm telling you. At that time. At that time, you had Winchester.

• 41:50Speaker 06

  Okay. The round we found was Winchester. The, the, the ammo you had in your gun and for your gun at the time was Blazer. But this was a Winchester, said right there Winchester, same exact type around. We've been through this. I know, I'm just giving you an opportunity. Like I said, your wife's being honest. Please, please stop giving me all this. She says ever since two thousand seventeen, she's saying that you didn't want to go. She, you wouldn't let her go on the search party. She wanted to help. Oh. And she's saying that. I think I know my wife. Well, I'm just telling you. Want me to bring her in? Say some stupid shit. You want me to bring her in and tell you? She's telling the truth about what, what happened? You didn't tell her, but you've lied to her for years. She's like, oh, she feels right now.

• 42:34Speaker 06

  Because, and your depression is getting considerably worse since this incident, which is. This has been going on for seven, eight years now. But it's gotten worse since this. Well, it's gotten really bad. I could see why. If I killed two, two girls, I would. Oh, my God. I would have depression too. I would have mental issues too. I'm sure you would. Living with this. I'm sure you would.

• 43:01Speaker 06

  And that's why you are. Here's what I think, Rick.

• 43:05Speaker 06

  I don't know. Only you know, but here's my theory. You're out there, maybe somebody set this up, maybe they didn't. Maybe you're out there, maybe, we know you're out there. But that's, that's not a theory, that's a fact. We know you had a gun, girl sold the gun in there.

• 43:21Speaker 06

  We know you, we know you have anger issues, but your wife told us before that you have some anger issues and you have depression and you have, you know, those types of issues. And maybe this girl said something to you, I don't know, maybe you said, go down the hill, which we know. The expert say you said, go down the hill. You get down there and they, you know, they piss you off for whatever reason. You racked the gun, you didn't realize you racked that gun to scare them, and that round popped out. You didn't realize it. Because maybe, do you carry that gun with a, with a round chambered? Or do you not have a chambered?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  When I carry it, I would have a round chamber.

• 44:02Speaker 06

  Well, you were carrying it that day. Cause you're a saint. So if you have one chambered, and what I'm saying is if you, if I have a round chamber, which I do, and I wrap this gun right now around a fully intact round will pop out. Correct?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  I assume.

• 44:15Speaker 06

  Well, that's what's happened. You didn't realize it.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 44:18Speaker 06

  And that's why that round's there. Fundamentally. And this is your opportunity. And you say that, you don't want any of this and that.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Please stop giving me opportunities. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I did something I didn't do.

• 44:30Speaker 06

  Okay, tell me.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  I'm not going to tell you I'm involved with something.

• 44:33Speaker 06

  Tell me what you did that day. Help me.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  I didn't. Two little girls.

• 44:39Speaker 06

  What did you do?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  I went for a walk on the trail and I went home.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Football season is here and the Fantasy Footballers are back to help you dominate your league. And this season, we're bringing you five episodes every week. That's more starts, more sits, more waiver wire wins, and more trades. From draft day all the way to your fantasy championship. We've got the rankings, the matchups, the news, and the advice you need to win. The Fantasy Footballers Podcast, five episodes a week all season long. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:23Annie Elise?

  Then Richard's wife Kathy was brought into the interrogation room. Now she is so devastated by the evidence that it is difficult to even hear what she is saying. So if you're listening to this episode on audio and you want to follow along with captions, feel free to hop over to the YouTube version because I know it could be a little bit difficult. But one especially crazy thing from this part of that interrogation is that apparently Richard originally told Kathy that he wasn't even on the bridge that day, which we definitely know was a lie.

• 45:52Speaker 06

  They're trying to tell me that you actually believe that I did that.

• 45:57Speaker 06

  And I just can't believe that.

• 46:03Speaker 07

  Trying to figure out why there's a bullet down there. I know. Do you think I'm not? And that's what I told them. I can't explain something I don't understand. I tried to explain to them that there's no way that a bullet from my gun was at a murder scene, because it didn't happen. I didn't even have my gun that day. I want to help.

• 46:35Speaker 07

  You know me.

• 46:39Speaker 07

  You know this isn't something I could do.

• 46:46Speaker 07

  And I know that you know that. You don't have to tell me that. I know.

• 46:56Speaker 07

  They really think I did this. And they want me to believe that.

• 47:05Speaker 07

  I know you know I didn't do this. I guess that's what I'm saying.

• 47:11Speaker 07

  I don't know what they're trying to do here, but

• 47:16Speaker 07

  I'm not gonna say something that's not true and I can't explain something that I don't understand. The only way for me to explain it is that I don't know. Because I'm saying it's not possible. There's no way that a bullet from my gun ended up at a murder scene. I didn't murder anybody. I didn't help somebody murder anybody.

• 47:42Speaker 07

  You know, I'm not even, I'm not gonna sit here and try to convince you.

• 47:47Speaker 07

  I know you know me.

• 47:50Speaker 07

  I know you know that I didn't do this, had anything to do with it. Talk about scheming or something.

• 48:05Speaker 06

  How did you have a bullet from your gun get out there?

• 48:09Speaker 07

  I don't know.

• 48:10Speaker 06

  Because they said it came from my gun.

• 48:13Speaker 07

  I know that's what they're, they believe you, that's what they're telling me.

• 48:17Speaker 06

  But how did it get there?

• 48:18Speaker 07

  I don't know.

• 48:22Speaker 06

  They said there was one in your box above your dresser.

• 48:26Speaker 07

  They showed me that picture too. I, I can't explain that. And I don't.

• 48:32Speaker 06

  I can't either.

• 48:37Speaker 07

  You know, it's for, I understand, me either, and that's what I'm trying to tell them. You wanna keep asking me and I just keep telling you, I can't explain it. I don't know

• 48:48Speaker 07

  how to explain something that isn't possible.

• 48:55Speaker 07

  But I know, this is what I do know. I know that no bullet from my gun

• 49:04Speaker 07

  was connected with a murder in any way, shape, or form.

• 49:09Speaker 07

  And there's no way a bullet from my gun would have been near Abby and Libby's murder, or, or anything else, because I never even seen those girls. Period.

• 49:22Speaker 07

  And I didn't even have my gun that day, so

• 49:27Speaker 07

  that's what I'm trying to say. I don't know how to make that any clearer.

• 49:31Speaker 07

  I don't know how to make that any clearer. I don't know how to make somebody understand. I get what he's saying. I, I don't have a way to explain it.

• 49:42Speaker 06

  And they're like, there's a witness that said it was you out there?

• 49:47Speaker 07

  I'm, dear, I, I don't know.

• 49:50Speaker 06

  How did they know it was you? So they said they showed her the thing.

• 49:56Speaker 06

  But I'm like, of course you were out there.

• 49:58Speaker 07

  If they seen me out there, they seen me out there, Derek, and I told them.

• 50:01Speaker 06

  Were you on the bridge?

• 50:02Speaker 07

  I told them I was on the bridge. I went out to the first trestle.

• 50:06Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 50:08Speaker 07

  That first thing that.

• 50:09Speaker 06

  Were you telling me that? You told me, so I told you weren't on it, but I didn't.

• 50:16Speaker 07

  It doesn't, hon, you're not in any trouble. You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything.

• 50:22Speaker 07

  Huh?

• 50:24Speaker 06

  I didn't know you were on it, I'm sorry.

• 50:26Speaker 07

  Well, don't worry about it. I, hon. Huh?

• 50:31Speaker 06

  You told me where, so I just wasn't.

• 50:33Speaker 07

  No, I told you that I walk.

• 50:38Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 50:41Speaker 07

  I love you, baby.

• 50:52Speaker 07

  I don't know what they're trying to do, but

• 50:56Speaker 07

  I know that that's not what I told you. I love you.

• 51:03Annie Elise?

  At this point, both Richard and the detective were getting very frustrated, and things really started to boil over.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Like, what should you do?

• 51:10Speaker 07

  There is no way that evidence is gonna show that I did this.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Right fucking here, Rick.

• 51:15Speaker 07

  You got one piece of evidence, and I can't explain it.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Multiple. I'm not showing you my whole fucking hand here.

• 51:21Speaker 07

  I don't care. I'm telling you, I'm done talking.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Now you're gonna drag your fucking wife and your daughter through this, because you're too fucking bullheaded to get out in front of this and you made a mistake. And whatever the fuck happened out there, we'll never fucking know, because you're too big of a fucking bullheaded. Go ahead.

• 51:39Speaker 07

  So tell you I did something.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Tell me the truth.

• 51:42Speaker 07

  Do.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  The truth, Rick. I don't wanna.

• 51:44Speaker 07

  I've told you the truth, and you don't wanna hear it.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  The evidence tells me otherwise. The evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this.

• 51:52Speaker 07

  No, it doesn't.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It fucking does.

• 51:54Speaker 07

  It doesn't. I'm telling you that there is no way that a bullet from my gun was used in these murders.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  And I'm telling you that we had this fucking round on February the fourteenth, two thousand seventeen, it's been secured in a fucking laboratory. And we've tested other guns that people that we

• 52:14Speaker 07

  I understand what you're saying.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  I want her to hear it.

• 52:16Speaker 07

  I understand what you're saying. What I'm telling you is, I can't explain something I don't understand.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Oh, the scientist explained it for you. The, the lab analysis and analysts have, have explained that for you. They're saying that this round without a doubt came from your gun.

• 52:32Speaker 07

  Then you're taking it from somewhere else then? Because it's not possible.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  I did not take it from somewhere else. It, it was what? And it was taking us photograph. You think we fucking went, stole a fucking round and threw it down by a fucking dead girl's butt?

• 52:48Speaker 01

  The same fucking TV. You're involved in this. You're fucking round shit, Rick. No, you see, you're getting pissed off. I understand.

• 52:56Speaker 07

  I am pissed off. Did you not see my wife?

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Did you not see these fucking two girls dead? No, that's what happened. You got fucking pissed off at them. You fucking dragged them down a fucking hill and you fucking killed them.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  You said for a reason, not because of that.

• 53:15Speaker 07

  Somebody.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  You're trying to tell me that, I'm not making this fucking round shit up, Rick. It is what it is.

• 53:21Speaker 07

  I'm done talking. Arrest me.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Happy to. Be fucking happy to, because I tried to fucking help you and you wouldn't fucking do it.

• 53:29Annie Elise?

  Despite maintaining his innocence, Richard was then indicted by a grand jury on the murder charges. With all the evidence against him, I mean, the bridge guy video, the car, the bullet. His lawyers really were scrambling to come up with a solid defense. And then in September of 2023, we got a look into their strategy, the defense strategy. And that was when they filed a 136-page document that basically laid out their theory of what they think happened to Abby and Libby. And they threw the blame in a completely different direction than anybody expected. Because what they were claiming was that Abby and Libby were sacrificed by a cult. Rumors from an alleged witness at the scene stated that there were sticks arranged on the girls' bodies,

• 54:12Annie Elise?

  which sparked the initial speculation of a cult's involvement from the very beginning. And the new documents State that there was actually evidence discovered at the crime scene that indicates cult involvement consisting of symbols resembling runes made out of sticks and constructed with tree branches. So, the defense is arguing that these symbols were clear signatures left behind by individuals in a cult called Odinism. They accused both prosecutors and several law enforcement officers of concealing information regarding the Odinist ties to the murders. I think all of us assumed that this crime scene was horrific and knew that going into it, but I don't think anyone would have been able to imagine just how heinous it actually

• 54:57Annie Elise?

  was based on the description. According to the document, Libby was found at the base of a tree with four branches intentionally placed in a very specific and arranged pattern on her body. Libby was positioned flat on her back, nude, with her left arm stretched above her head touching the base of the tree. Libby's hands were covered in blood. Blood spots and blood drippings were seen all over Libby's body from head to toe. Libby's right arm was placed along the side of her body. One large tree branch had been placed over her left shoulder. This branch was so long that it extended above Libby's head several feet and below her legs for several feet as well.

• 55:40Annie Elise?

  Two smaller branches formed a V where her legs joined her body near her pelvic region, with both sides of the V extending upward toward Libby's head. The last of the four branches extended across Libby's body in a line from her right shoulder to her left shoulder. This fourth tree branch also connected with the other three branches and was placed under both branches that formed the V. Libby's neck was partially covered by this fourth branch. There appeared to be no blood spraying or dripping onto the leaves or the tree near Libby's head, or near her sliced neck, making it likely that Libby had been killed at a nearby tree and then dragged to her final resting place where she was staged.

• 56:25Annie Elise?

  The murderers treated Abby very differently, though. She was found just a few feet away from Libby, placed at an angle with her legs a few feet from Libby's legs. Now unlike Libby, Abby was fully clothed. In fact, Abby was dressed in Libby's sweatshirt and jeans. No blood appeared on Abby's clothing either, meaning that she was likely murdered while naked and then dressed by the murderers after she died and after the blood had stopped coming out of her neck. Abby's hands and feet also had no blood on them. Other than the blood found around Abby's neck area where the murderers would have inflicted the fatal wound, very little, if any, blood was found anywhere else on Abby's body or clothing.

• 57:09Annie Elise?

  The murderers appeared to have gone to great lengths to keep Abby's body and clothing clean from blood. Abby was found on her back, however, her elbows were bent, with her right and left arms both placed on her chest. Abby's left hand and arm near the left side of her face and her right hand and arm near the right side of her face. Also, her left leg was straight while her right leg was bent at the knee. The murderers also placed her bent right leg under her left leg. Then, like Libby, those involved in the murder had placed tree branches in a very specific pattern on top of Abby. The pattern looks very similar to an asterisk, consisting of three tree branches, all joined in the middle.

• 57:53Annie Elise?

  At least one of those tree branches appears to have been cleanly cut by some sort of instrument, such as a saw, rather than being split or broken by a hand or a leg or something like that, indicating that this was a preconceived plan. Then, above Abby's head, there were smaller sticks that had been placed over her hair, crudely mimicking horns or antlers. The amount of blood that would be perhaps expected at this kind of crime scene based upon the location of the injuries of both girls was not visible at all. In addition to the unusual way that the girls were posed, including the stick formations placed on their bodies, another unusual marking was found on a nearby tree.

• 58:38Annie Elise?

  A symbol that looked similar to the letter "F" appeared approximately four feet above the base of the tree. The "F" was red in color, and later DNA testing showed that the "F" had been painted on that tree using Libby's blood as the so-called "paint." Additional blood spatter was found at the base of that same tree. All of the blood at the base of the tree appears to have been Libby's blood as well. The stick configuration on Abby resembles the rune called "Hagel." This rune is used to depict the word "Hail." Therefore, the combination of the Hagel rune found on Abby and the rune that was found on the tree, when combined, would proclaim "Hail Odin."

• 59:23Annie Elise?

  The defense team speculates that because of the lack of blood visible in the crime scene photos, especially the lack of blood concerning Abby, that the murderers may have saved the blood to be used in future rituals. But just as the defense was building their Odinism theory, a very serious wrench was like thrown into their plans by Richard himself. Because while in prison, Richard confessed to the murders. And I don't mean just once, or in a fleeting moment, or under pressure. He literally confessed over sixty times, in person, in writing, even in recorded jail calls with his wife and mom.

• 59:59Speaker 05

  Yeah. Are you there? Are you there? Yes, babe. Yeah, babe. What's going on? I just wanted to apologize to you. What's going on, sweetheart? I did it. You did what? No, I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't, Darren. Yes, I did. Don't say you didn't. I don't know why. No, you didn't.

• 1:00:37Speaker 05

  No, you didn't, dear.

• 1:00:43Speaker 05

  You're not feeling well. There's something wrong. They've messed up your meds or something there. No, I, I mean, I evidently did it. No, you didn't.

• 1:00:56Speaker 05

  Why would you say that?

• 1:00:59Speaker 05

  Because maybe I did. No, you didn't, dear. I think I did. No, you didn't.

• 1:01:10Speaker 05

  They are screwing with you there, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. There's something wrong. I just don't know what to do. They are messing with your mind. They have done something to your food, or they've done something to your meds. There's something wrong.

• 1:01:32Speaker 05

  Don't you ever say you did anything, because I know you didn't.

• 1:01:38Speaker 05

  I think I did. No, you didn't.

• 1:01:43Speaker 05

  Why would you say that? Because I think I did. No, you didn't, dear. No, you didn't.

• 1:01:53Speaker 05

  I wish I could say I didn't. I don't know. You don't know. See, exactly. There's something wrong. They're screwing with you.

• 1:02:03Speaker 05

  Trying to get you to say things.

• 1:02:07Speaker 05

  They're trying to mess with your mind.

• 1:02:14Speaker 05

  No, I'd be safer, I guess. You, there's something wrong. No, you don't.

• 1:02:23Speaker 05

  I just wish they would kill me or let me apologize to the families, at least. Dear.

• 1:02:34Speaker 05

  Don't talk anymore. Just don't talk anymore, okay?

• 1:02:45Speaker 06

  Need you to know that I did that.

• 1:02:48Speaker 05

  What?

• 1:02:52Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:02:56Speaker 05

  I'm good, dear. There's no way.

• 1:03:01Speaker 05

  There's no way, dear.

• 1:03:02Speaker 06

  Love me.

• 1:03:03Speaker 05

  Dear, there's no way.

• 1:03:06Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:03:08Speaker 06

  I hope you still love me.

• 1:03:10Speaker 05

  I always will go love you, honey, but no, you have not done anything.

• 1:03:18Speaker 05

  And I think you are not well.

• 1:03:22Speaker 05

  So you don't need to be saying you did something you didn't do.

• 1:03:27Speaker 06

  Well, hon, this is the first time I've been able to talk to you and...

• 1:03:33Speaker 06

  I've been trying forever.

• 1:03:37Speaker 05

  Were you just gonna allow to call me, or...?

• 1:03:40Speaker 06

  I don't know what's going on, hon.

• 1:03:42Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:03:44Speaker 06

  I definitely didn't lose my mind now, though.

• 1:03:47Speaker 05

  I don't, don't, don't.

• 1:03:54Speaker 05

  I'm supposed to be meeting Brad here for some reason, so...

• 1:04:00Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 1:04:03Speaker 06

  It's a personal visitation and that's not gonna...

• 1:04:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. I know, I know.

• 1:04:09Speaker 06

  Then it's taken me...

• 1:04:13Speaker 06

  It feels like it's taken me forever.

• 1:04:15Speaker 05

  You have one minute remaining.

• 1:04:21Speaker 05

  It's okay. Are you there?

• 1:04:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm here.

• 1:04:29Speaker 06

  Trying to be at peace with things.

• 1:04:33Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:04:40Speaker 06

  And I just, I had a dream that I needed to let you go and I didn't know how to let you go and...

• 1:04:46Speaker 05

  Well, then you're dreaming stuff again, okay?

• 1:04:51Speaker 05

  That's, that's all it is. You don't, don't be talking about anything on this phone. Maybe it's...

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  Okay?

• 1:05:00Speaker 06

  But I have to let you know that I did it.

• 1:05:03Speaker 05

  Dear, no you didn't.

• 1:05:10Speaker 05

  There's no way. They messed you up so bad.

• 1:05:15Speaker 06

  It's okay, honey. I did it.

• 1:05:20Speaker 06

  I did it, dear.

• 1:05:22Speaker 05

  Stop.

• 1:05:24Speaker 06

  I cannot stop.

• 1:05:28Speaker 06

  I've got something here listening to me right now, dear.

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  No, I did it.

• 1:05:40Speaker 06

  I, I don't...

• 1:05:44Speaker 05

  Oh, you did it, dear. There's no way.

• 1:05:56Speaker 06

  I killed out of anger, dear.

• 1:05:57Speaker 05

  No, you didn't. Stop. Stop saying that.

• 1:06:07Speaker 06

  I knew I was supposed to let you go. I was trying to let you go.

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  Just worried that you guys aren't gonna love me because of the fact that I said that I did it.

• 1:06:20Speaker 05

  Ricky, I just know you're not in a good place right now.

• 1:06:26Speaker 05

  And I'm praying for you and we will always love you.

• 1:06:32Speaker 05

  No matter what.

• 1:06:40Speaker 05

  But just saying it doesn't mean you did it.

• 1:06:45Speaker 06

  Well... It does when I did.

• 1:06:50Speaker 05

  Rick, don't talk like this.

• 1:07:00Speaker 05

  I think they're

• 1:07:03Speaker 05

  just messing with you.

• 1:07:06Speaker 06

  No, Mom, they're not.

• 1:07:15Speaker 06

  I love you though.

• 1:07:16Speaker 05

  What are you doing? I love you too, hon.

• 1:07:24Speaker 05

  I just know you don't have it in you to do something like that.

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  Mom.

• 1:07:42Speaker 06

  I wouldn't sit here and tell you I did it if I didn't.

• 1:07:46Speaker 05

  Well, if they're messing with your meds and all that, yeah, you would.

• 1:07:51Annie Elise?

  But according to the defense, Richard didn't make these confessions on his own free will. They say that Richard was coerced into making them after being held in solitary confinement, after being given psychiatric medications against his will and also because he was threatened by prison staff. And according to Richard's lawyers, this was all because the staff was full of odinist cult members. Cult members who needed Richard to take the fall for the murders. They said that they personally witnessed guards wearing odinist patches and were the ones always seen with Richard. They claimed that the men wearing the patches on their uniforms were always within earshot of any of Richard's conversations and also always monitoring him.

• 1:08:35Annie Elise?

  They believed that they possibly threatened to kill his family, which caused Richard to ask over and over in every meeting with them if his family was alive, if they were okay, and if they were safe. It was like Richard was afraid that someone was going to kill his family, possibly the odinist cult. The defense also stated that after it came out that they knew about the possible Connection that the guards miraculously stopped wearing those patches. The defense further said that the conditions that Richard was kept in were so poor and the guilt that he felt after falsely confessing over 60 times was so intense that his physical and mental health both started to rapidly decline. And it's true. He lost a ton of weight.

• 1:09:19Annie Elise?

  He also refused to eat any of the prison meals and he refused to sleep in the prison beds. And it was weird. After each confession, his behavior would just get super weird. Like, he would start drinking out of the toilet. He would start eating paper documents from his attorneys. He even, at some point, was eating his own feces. So in light of Richard's declining state, his defense team quickly filed a request to have him transferred to a different facility. But the judge denied it almost immediately. And that was far from the only hurdle that the defense was up against. In October of 2023, private crime scene photos were leaked to the media. And they were leaked from the defense's own office. And these images included images of showing exactly how Abby and Libby were found.

• 1:10:04Annie Elise?

  And remember, Libby was found nude. So this wasn't just them compromising the integrity of the investigation or re-traumatizing the families. It was basically distributing sexual and violent images of a child. Now, the defense blamed it on a third party, saying they stole the photos from the lawyer's office. That's who is responsible. But whether or not that's true, I mean, it's just gross. It's disgusting and a huge violation to the girls, truly. And the judge in the case felt the exact same way. The same day as the leak, the judge announced that Richard's entire defense team was withdrawing from the case. And not because they wanted to, but because the court was basically forcing them to withdraw after this leak. But a month later, Richard appealed that decision.

• 1:10:49Annie Elise?

  He appealed it to the Indiana Supreme Court, arguing that by removing his original lawyers, it violated his right to a fair trial. And they actually agreed. And so his old lawyers were put right back on the case. However, the defense got an even bigger blow. After that, because the judge ruled that they were not allowed to bring up any single mention of odinism, rituals, any cult behavior, none of that was going to be allowed in the trial at all. Now, we know that that was the theory that the defense was working on. That was the theory that they were relying on. So when that happened, a lot of people were kind of wondering what they were going to say in Richard's defense instead now.

• 1:11:30Annie Elise?

  What were they going to use as his defense when the trial finally started on October 18th, 2024? So the trial began, and at the very beginning of the trial, the prosecutor laid out their theory of the case, and they also explained what they believe Richard's motive was. According to them, Richard intended to sexually assault the girls, but something interrupted him. So instead, he forced them down that hill before ultimately killing them. And according to the prosecution, in order to find Richard guilty, all the jury needed to do was believe his own words and his own confessions, which they argued were rock solid because those confessions included details that only the killer would have known at the time.

• 1:12:12Annie Elise?

  For example, Richard mentioned that a white van had passed by as the girls were forced down the hill, also that their bodies were covered with branches. Now, of course, we all know these things now if you've been following the case, but this apparently was not public knowledge at the time of Richard's confession. So in their view, the only way that Richard could have known those specifics is if he's the one who did it. But the defense, they fired back, and they said that Richard's admissions were all coerced and that they came only after he had suffered that serious trauma in prison, including being locked in solitary confinement for 13 months and being forced to take a very intense antipsychotic medication. They also showed the jury footage of Richard's treatment in jail,

• 1:12:57Annie Elise?

  including clips of him being naked and physically restrained despite having no disciplinary infractions on record. The defense also pointed out that Richard didn't just confess to this murder. He confessed to a whole list of things that just never even happened. I mean, we're talking about claims that he shot the girls, killed his own Family sexually assaulted his sister and his daughter that like a wide variety of things. Now, of course, we know that Abby and Libby were not shot. Also, no one in Richard's family was killed. Richard's sister and daughter also testified that they had never been sexually assaulted. So why would he have admitted to so many different things that were simply untrue? Again, this was the defense's arguments.

• 1:13:40Annie Elise?

  I mean, in other words, the defense was arguing that if someone is confessing to crimes that are completely false, that you can demonstrate are false, then how much weight should any of those confessions really carry? Especially when they're coming from someone who is under extreme psychological pressure. And then they went after the prosecution's case as a whole, arguing that it was botched from the very beginning.

• 1:14:08Speaker 06

  Football season is here and the Fantasy Footballers are back to help you dominate your league. And this season, we're bringing you five episodes every week. That's more starts, more sits, more waiver wire wins and more trades. From draft day all the way to your fantasy championship, we've got the rankings, the matchups, the news and the advice you need to win. The Fantasy Footballers podcast, five episodes a week all season long. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:14:41Annie Elise?

  According to them, evidence was mishandled. It was mislabeled, it was lost, some of it was even destroyed. For example, they said that several other suspects had actually confessed to the murders, but that those confession recordings were conveniently taped over. In another example, the sticks and the branches that were found on the girls' bodies weren't even collected as evidence by the investigators. Which honestly, I have to say, I do agree with the defense on that one. I don't understand how sticks that are laying directly on top of murder victims and sticks that are covered in blood wouldn't be considered evidence. And you wouldn't take those with you. I mean, to me, at the very least, that does show that the investigators made some serious errors when it came to handling the crime scene.

• 1:15:27Annie Elise?

  And finally, the defense pointed out that the prosecution's entire case and their timeline, it just doesn't work because that security video shows Richard's car leaving the trail before the murders even happened. The prosecution, though, they didn't seem too worried about the defense's arguments because they still did have some key testimony that they were holding up their sleeves, including no less than four witnesses who saw Bridge Guy on the day of the murders. First, there was Riley Veris and her friend Brienne Wilbur, who said that Bridge Guy glared at them as they walked near the Freedom Bridge Trail. Then, he was spotted by Betsy Blair, who said that she saw him on the high bridge,

• 1:16:08Annie Elise?

  which later, on her way back toward Freedom Bridge, she saw Abby and Libby. And Betsy's testimony was pretty solid because she also had a Fitbit that had its data to back up all of her statements and, you know, track her whereabouts and where she walked to at what time. So that was a rock-solid witness. And then finally, Sarah Carbaugh testified, and she said that she saw Bridge Guy walking along the side of the road and that he was covered in mud and blood. This was around 4:00 p.m. So all in all, it painted a pretty dark picture of Bridge Guy's movements that day. But the defense pushed back on all four stories. Riley and Brienne claimed to have seen Bridge Guy near the Freedom Bridge Trails

• 1:16:50Annie Elise?

  at around 2:15 p.m., yet Libby's video proved that he was almost a mile away at the other high bridge at that exact time. And Brienne also described Bridge Guy as very tall, which Richard definitely isn't. Plus, Riley, Brienne, and Betsy all described him as quite young, no more than 30 years old. But Richard was 44 years old at the time. And as for Sarah, the defense pointed out that her story changed several times. She had originally told police that Bridge Guy was wearing a tan jacket, which of course doesn't match Libby's video or what Richard was actually wearing. So there was a lot of push and pull and going back and forth with these witnesses. But to summarize, all four witnesses gave descriptions

• 1:17:35Annie Elise?

  that seemed to rule Out Richard as Bridge Guy. But you know what gets me? All of them do describe seeing the only man on the trails that day. Bridge Guy. So if the defense's story is true, shouldn't at least one of them have seen both Bridge Guy and Richard? I mean, it's hard to not start thinking that Richard and Bridge Guy might actually be the same person when all of these witnesses are confident that Bridge Guy was the only man on the trails that day. So then after all of this, the trial then moved on to discussing electronic data. And the defense pointed out that all of the devices in Richard's house, you know, those 23 phones, not a single one of them showed any communication to or about Abby and Libby. But the prosecution was kind of like, okay, well, hold up.

• 1:18:20Annie Elise?

  That's because the one phone that actually mattered was conveniently missing in all of this. Out of all of the dozens of phones that Richard hoarded, the one that he used back in 2017 has never been found, which honestly is a little bit suspicious for a guy that like hordes phones and has so many of them. Like, where's your main one? Then there's also the fact that Richard originally told investigators that he went to the trails that day to browse a stock trading site. Yet there was no evidence of his cellphone accessing that site on any of the nearby towers, which is really weird because we know that the trail received at least some internet connection because Libby's phone kept pinging. And that's really not the only suspicious thing that Richard did around the time of the murders.

• 1:19:03Annie Elise?

  Shortly afterward, he also changed the description of himself on his own license. He added two inches to his height and he took off 15 pounds from his weight. Which, look, I mean, a lot of people want to be taller and skinnier. I get that. I think I even am a few pounds lighter on my license. But is it, was it an innocent change? Or could this have been another tactic to try and throw off the police? Then multiple days of the trial were dedicated to discussing each side's theory about Richard's gun and the bullet that was found between the girls. The prosecution's firearm expert said that the bullet and the gun were definitely a match. She explained that three different parts of cartilage, the ejector, the extractor, and the chamber face of the barrel were analyzed.

• 1:19:46Annie Elise?

  And that they matched to Richard's gun. But the defense really questioned how valid her comparisons were. For example, the firearm analyst took Richard's gun, fired it, and then compared those bullets to the one found at the scene. But remember, the bullet that was found at the scene wasn't actually fired. It had only been cycled through the gun. So the defense said it makes no sense to compare a cycled round to a fired one. We also learned that all firearm testing has at least a 2% rate of false positives. Which that means in at least one out of every 50 cases, a bullet is identified as a match to a gun when it actually isn't. And that's kind of scary to think about. I mean, it's not a huge chance, I get that, but it definitely is possible.

• 1:20:31Annie Elise?

  And all you need is reasonable doubt. So finally, it turns out that before receiving Richard's gun in October of 2022, the prosecution's own firearm expert had already received three other guns for comparison to the bullet. And she was not able to exclude any of them as having produced the bullet. And to me, look, I'm going to be honest. That's pretty damning evidence against Richard's gun being a definitive match. I mean, how strong of a match can it really be if a bunch of other guns could also have fired that same bullet? Right? If she couldn't exclude them, that means any of them could have fired it. But that still leaves a big question. If the jury is supposed to believe that Richard didn't do it, who did?

• 1:21:13Annie Elise?

  Remember, by this point, Keegan had been cleared, Ron was dead, and any mention of a cult was completely off the table. So instead, the defense put forward a two-killer theory. They argued that there is no way that one person could have killed both girls without anybody noticing. Especially because Abby was killed so carefully that no blood was even left behind. Now, according to the defense, Bridge Guy and another person assaulted the girls at the south end of the bridge, then loaded them up into a car and drove away. Then, about 12 hours later, they killed the girls near Deer Creek and dumped their bodies. Now, I know, as far-fetched as all of that sounds, the defense Did have some evidence to back it up.

• 1:21:58Annie Elise?

  For one, the medical examiner agreed that it was possible that multiple weapons could have been used to kill the girls, which makes more sense if there was more than one killer. Plus, the backside of Libby's legs were covered in debris. So this added weight to the theory that she was killed off-site and then dragged for a little while to the spot where she was eventually found. And there was one more big detail that supported the defense's theory. Well, I should say that many believed supported their theory. According to the prosecution's timeline, the girls were killed sometime around 4:00 PM. But it turns out that headphones were plugged into the audio jack on Libby's phone at 5:45 PM on the day of the murders.

• 1:22:41Annie Elise?

  And they stayed connected for five hours before being unplugged, which really makes it seem like maybe somebody was messing with the girls' phone, if not the girls themselves, much later than we originally thought. Now, could she have just left her headphones plugged in the whole time and then somebody unplugged them five hours later after they were done with everything? Possibly. It's, you know, for you to decide. But when it was all said and done, it was finally time for closing statements. And the prosecution highlighted their key evidence. Bridge guy video, the bridge guy audio, witnesses placing Richard at the scene, the bullet found between the girls that matched Richard's gun, and also, of course, the dozens and dozens and dozens of confessions, which, according to the prosecution, those confessions

• 1:23:25Annie Elise?

  included details that only the killer would know. The defense, on the other hand, they argued that the prosecution's evidence ultimately doesn't point to Richard. There was no DNA, no fingerprints, no murder weapon, and no real connection between Richard and the girls. The witnesses who saw Bridge guy also described somebody young, tall, and wearing a tan jacket, which definitely doesn't sound like Richard. They also claimed that the prosecution's ballistic analysis was pseudoscience and that all of Richard's confessions had been, like I said, "coored." So with that, justice for Abby and Libby and Richard's fate, it was in the hands of the jury. Finally, a November 11th

• 1:24:06Annie Elise?

  2024, after four days of deliberations, the jury reached a decision. They found Richard Allen guilty of the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. On Friday, December 20th, 2024, Richard was sentenced to 65 years for Abby's murder and 65 years for Libby's murder, both sentences to run consecutively, ultimately putting him away for 130 years. And during sentencing, the judge called Richard one of the most heinous criminals in all of Indiana. After the sentencing, prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLeeland thanked Abby and Libby for helping catch their own killer, saying that Libby had the wherewithal to realize that something wasn't right and pull out her phone.

• 1:24:49Annie Elise?

  Now, since Libby's phone was found under Abby's body, he said that Abby had the good sense to try to hide the phone from their killer, so that law enforcement could eventually find it, saying that even during the most terrifying moments of their young lives, the girls managed to provide the single biggest piece of evidence to solve their own murders. Despite this small bit of solace, the pain for the families is endless. Libby's grandmother Becky says that she still struggles with the guilt of letting the girls go to the trails that day. Libby's mother Carrie says that even though Libby would now be in her 20s, the family can't even bear the pain of celebrating her birthday anymore.

• 1:25:30Annie Elise?

  Abby's grandmother Diane said that Abby's last words in Libby's phone were, quote, "Don't leave me up here." So because of those words, she didn't even allow herself to leave the trial, even during the graphic testimony. She honored those words for herself. And sadly, the heartbreaking journey for these families and for everybody who has been affected by this, it was far from over. In December of 2025, Richard's defense team filed a 113-page appeal outlining why his conviction should be overturned. Their main points were first, that the search of Richard's home was unconstitutional, so anything found during it should be thrown out. Second, that the confessions made by Richard while he was in jail should not have been

• 1:26:12Annie Elise?

  played during the trial because he was clearly in a psychotic state. And third, that they weren't able to present a complete defense at trial because they weren't allowed to mention any of the odinism or cult theories. And while I do agree with some of the defense's points, I also think that it would be pretty wild if after all of this time, after all of the suspects and after the whole trial, if everything were to come undone because of an appeal. I've seen crazier things happen, but who knows? Overall, this case is really complex and it's hard to know what to think. There is so much evidence that seems to point in every single direction and overall, I don't really know what to think. At first, I thought that the bullet evidence was kind of like the nail in the coffin for

• 1:26:56Annie Elise?

  Richard, but now that we know that the ballistic analysis is kind of a question mark, it has me second guessing a little bit. I mean, then again, the confessions, those really are damning in all of this, yet still there is no direct evidence tying him to the girls. So I don't know. I see both sides of the argument. Both sides have made compelling cases. I don't know. It's really hard to say. Like I said, my goal here was to lay out the facts of both sides without too much drama or bias because I know that this is a very controversial case, but I'm really curious to know what you guys think. Do you think that they got the guy that Richard Allen is the one? Or do you think maybe somebody else is responsible out there? That this wasn't Richard? I mean, regardless what you think and which side of the argument you're on, the saddest

• 1:27:41Annie Elise?

  part about this case that we can all agree on is that two beautiful young girls with their whole lives ahead of them, their lives were taken from them while they were scared, confused and in pain. And that is just absolutely heartbreaking. And it's heartbreaking to think of all that they had to go through and all that their families have had to go through. So I really hope that by reopening this case, I've been able to shed some more light on their stories and what they experienced and hopefully maybe have you question a few things. Maybe if you were on the other side and you thought he was innocent this whole time, now do you still think that? Or if you thought he was guilty, now are you questioning that? What do you believe? Let me know in the comments. Before you go, don't forget to hit subscribe on YouTube and follow the podcast on your podcast app so that you don't miss future episodes.

• 1:28:26Annie Elise?

  I'm Annie Elise and as always, thank you for tuning into another episode of 10 to Life reopened. Stay safe. Bye.

• 1:28:39Speaker 04

  What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel D'Amato, here to tell you about my show Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Katelyn Clark's unstoppable rise in the WNBA? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments? Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us. Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Oui et ah.

• 1:29:10Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair? Done well. Kitchen sink install? Done well. Deck upgrades? Done well. Electrical upgrades? Done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at angie.com.