How Do You Define True Health? Plus: Ruminations On Aging, Death & The Importance of Open Communication

I'm hitting a groove. Although I definitely have some sustainability concerns about posting two weekly editions of the show (have I said how much work this is?), I'm keeping my promise. So here we are again with another installment of Ask Me Anything — a twist on my typical guest interview format where we answer questions submitted by you, the listener. But this week it's a twist on that twist. In addition to entertaining a few listener inquiries, I gave Julie the latitude to raise a few issues and themes currently on her mind. I think the recipe worked — it's quite a revelatory exchange. This conversation explores: * Appreciating Diversity Among RRP Guests * How To Define True Health * What It Means To Live In Balance * Eating In Harmony With Nature * Perspectives On Aging * Mindful Ruminations on Death * Cultural Objectification Of Women * Successful Marriage & Open Communication The show concludes with Mother of Mine, written and performed by Julie (aka SriMati), accompanied by our sons Tyler & Trapper Piatt. I sincerely hope you enjoy our discussion. How Do YOU define ‘True Health”? Let me know in the comments section below. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Only you can tell the world what is locked inside your heart, what is yearning to come out. And, you know, eating plant-based and becoming healthy and understanding that you can clear yourself and connect with your authentic self by, you know, eating vital, vibrant, healthy foods and taking care of yourself is the beginning step.

• 1:26Rich Roll?

  That's Julie Pyatt, and we're back with another edition of Ask Me Anything on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:42Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:46Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the P-O-D-C-A-S-T. I'm your host, Rich Roll, back at you again. Another episode of Ask Me Anything. Actually, we're gonna do a little bit of a... Twist on the Q and A, Ask Me Anything. Are we not Julie Poyet?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna ask you anything.

• 2:02Rich Roll?

  Are you? Is that what you're gonna do?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna, we're gonna go off script.

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  We kind of are. Yeah, we're already like in our second edition of this since we announced we're gonna do two episodes a week and we're already varying on the theme.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  That's right. You made me come up with some very specific topics, but I'm actually gonna just rogue off of those and start asking you rent.

• 2:20Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, basically, I just asked Julie, I was like, why don't you come up with a couple of things that you would like to talk about? So it's Ask Me Anything from the Prism, you know, perspective of Julie as opposed to the readers, which is not a reflection on any kind of dissatisfaction with all the amazing questions that you guys have been sending in, although we could use some more. So keep, keep them, keep them coming.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, keep them coming, for sure.

• 2:45Rich Roll?

  Cause now, you know, look, we're gonna be cranking these things out, so.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  We need content.

• 2:49Rich Roll?

  Like every, every other blogger. No, we've got plenty. I've got a whole stack. I printed out all the questions here. We're not gonna run out of things to talk about, but I thought we could focus it a little bit by bringing up a couple of subjects that maybe are percolating in your consciousness today.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  I appreciate you wanting to know what's inside my, my mind.

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  I do. Thank you.

• 3:19Rich Roll?

  This is my only way of getting at it.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's good. It's great.

• 3:22Rich Roll?

  By broadcasting.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  I know. We get to talk again for the second time in one week.

• 3:26Rich Roll?

  In one week. Yes. Any parent who has a bunch of kids and there's a lot of chaos and running around, hopefully can relate to that.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  It's awesome. We always, we always say, if you want to increase the quality of your marriage, start a podcast. Together.

• 3:43Rich Roll?

  Well, but it's, it's sort of like, if you're having problems with your relationship, it might, it's sort of like, like, oh, having a kid is gonna solve your relationship problem. You know, it could just exacerbate it and explode it. Like, if you started a podcast with your spouse and you're forced to sit across from them and.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  I don't know. I would, I would.

• 4:02Rich Roll?

  Converse. It might just, it might just blow the whole thing up.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  No, if I had to bet on it, I would bet that it would be a positive thing because you are opening up a forum for communication. And I always advocate, in every situation, communication is king.

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, but I think inherent in that is the idea that, that you're, you have the willingness to.

• 4:24Rich Roll?

  Be open and honest because I think there's a lot of people out there who it's just like, "Hey, we're doing a podcast. Hey, what's going on with you, Julie? It's radio talk time, top of the hour. What's the weather like?" You know, it's easy to devolve into that. So I think it's actually hard to

• 4:40Speaker 01

  To be vulnerable.

• 4:41Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  It's hard for anybody to do that in any context, in a blog post, in a conversation, but doing it behind a mic when you know there's going to be a lot of people listening, that's a frightening, intimidating thing.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I guess it was easy for us because we were at an all-time, not all-time low point in our

• 4:58Rich Roll?

  We had nothing to lose.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  We had nothing to lose, so at that point it was easy.

• 5:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, it's kind of like the arc of, it's similar, not as, not quite as dramatic, but, but you know, what's interesting is the arc of Marc Maron and his WTF show because he started his podcast at a very desperate low moment in his life where he actually thought his career was over as a stand-up comedian, as a broadcaster, like he was unemployable and he had nothing going on, you know, and he started the show in his garage out of desperation and actually just not knowing what else to do. And he just spilled his guts into the mic in a very vulnerable and, and human way. And that's what captured the interest of, you know, the audience that has now grown to become one of the most popular, not the most popular podcasts.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  So people responded and now he just had President Obama in his garage.

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  Not only did he interview Obama, but Obama came to his house and sat in his garage, which is kind of the most amazing thing about it. And, you know, I listened to the interview, we listened to the interview and I got a lot out of it. I thought it was really cool that they had a conversation, but I just thought what was bigger than the conversation itself was just simply the fact that it was happening.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:11Rich Roll?

  And what that means to podcasting and kind of this shift in, in the paradigm towards, you know, direct to consumer media. And also, I actually enjoyed the episode after the Obama episode more because it's Marc's retelling of how, with his producer, Brendan, of how it all came to be. And you get a real sense of the flavor of Marc Maron and kind of the insanity of his mind, which I certainly relate to. Like I sort of identify with how his, you know, emotional body operates because it's very similar to my own. I think we have very similar demons that we combat, but. Anyway, if you haven't heard that, the Postscript episode is well worth checking

• 6:52Rich Roll?

  out, and I think it's why Mark is the best in the business and why I always say that I try to model this show in certain respects after, you know, kind of what he does. Like, I aspire to that level of vulnerability. And much like him, when we do these interviews on the show, I'm much less interested in making sure that I get the information that the guest is there to convey than I am in just having an authentic moment or a connection with that person, because I think that that is where the magic occurs. And that's why I don't do Skype interviews.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Right. And also, it's just, it's really beautiful that we have this medium available to us to actually, you know, speak honestly and truthfully and openly about, you know, topics that are important to us as human beings, and that there's nothing filtering that, or nothing between us. So it is very significant. It was a very amazing day, you know, when I heard that Mark was interviewing Obama. It is, it's amazing. It's a wonderful tool. And we appreciate everybody who tunes in and everyone who writes us and everybody who is supporting us in our own version of this expression, because it's literally changed our lives completely.

• 8:09Rich Roll?

  Oh, in every, in every possible way, yeah. It's been an incredible experience. And, you know, the emails that flow in, not just the Q and A emails, but just the fan support and the feedback that we get. And, you know, the connection that we have to you guys in the sense that, you know, it is being received positively and impactfully, and that it's, you know, been instrumental in helping other people, you know, make significant changes in their life is, that's why we do it.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also, I want to just, you know, give you a little shout out for the level of quality that you've upheld on the show and the amount of time and care and detail that you put into it. And also want to just note that You know, in order to present a wide array of perspectives and to keep things balanced and to keep it real, you know, you've made decisions to have, you know, certain guests on that, you know, may not have been the safest or may not be people that, you know, that are going to please everybody every time. But, you know, the, your courage and your commitment to just presenting a lot of different perspectives, I think is extremely

• 9:18Speaker 01

  healing because, you know, we all are together on this planet, having this life experience. And at an ultimate level, there really is no us and them. There's, there's only one. So every time we can bridge a gap, every time we can reach out and connect with somebody else, we're doing amazing work. You know, it's really not a black and white world that we live in.

• 9:41Rich Roll?

  No, it's not. And yeah, there's definitely been some controversy as of late. You know, Tucker Maxx was definitely a polarizing, controversial guest that I had on recently. And I stand behind that interview. You know, we had a really interesting talk and, you know, we don't see eye to eye on everything, but this show is not about just having people on that I agree with on everything, because what is the point of that? So what's interesting is when you can sit across from somebody who has a different perspective or experience, at least attempt to find some common ground and mine from that, something that can be of service or helpful to other people. And it's not going to be, look, not every guest is going to be everybody's cup of tea. Like, I get that. And I'm willing to roll that dice and take that risk in the interest of trying to, you know, attract the widest audience

• 10:26Rich Roll?

  possible and bring, you know, a panoply of opinions to the, to the table to have, you know, interesting, compelling conversations.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And as, as listeners, you know, we have to be careful, you know, in our life, you know, I have a, I can compare this to my spiritual practices. You know, you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So, you know, not every guest is going to be exactly, you know, you know, you're going to agree on every single point. But we have to remember that it's about the overall content and trying to, as we used to say, you know, pluck, sort of... Pick the flower from each episode and create like your own garland that makes sense for you. Like, please take what is useful for you and then dump the rest.

• 11:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  But don't get angry at Rich because he had somebody on the show that you don't agree with one week.

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  And then you're completely bummed, you know, because he's like working his ass off for, you know, for the show and with really, really a true intent and integrity and commitment and everything. So, you know, we can't be so black and white about everything. We have to calm down and we have to, you know, take a breath and you're allowed to not agree with everything that, you know, we propose.

• 11:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I had an exchange with somebody who reached out to me after I posted the Tucker interview who said something along the lines of like, "I've been with you for the beginning. I've been like a diehard, I've read all the books and I've listened to all the podcasts, but you know, I just can't get behind this guest and like, I'm done with you. I'm unsubscribing. Like, it's over. Like, we're breaking up." You know, and I'm like, and usually I don't engage and I don't get like very much vitriol, like, you know, aimed at me on the internet. So, and I'm a sensitive guy. So, when it does come, like I-

• 12:08Speaker 01

  You are so sensitive.

• 12:09Rich Roll?

  I like can't resist the urge to engage and I just impulsively sent him an email back that was like, "Really? Like, I've put out 155 of these, like 350, 400 hours of like free interviews. I've written two books and just, you know, this one interview, now you're going to punt on me. You're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater and you're like completely done with me and I've lost all credibility. Like, is that really what you're saying? Like, if that's, if that is, then, you know, go on in your experience and, you know, I wish you well on your new path, but please, you know, maybe understand that, that, you know, I'm the one who's reading this email and, you know, I'm a human being

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  and, and I recognize and embrace the idea that you're not, that not every guest is going to be everybody's cup of tea, but like, come on, man. Give me a little credit. Like, you know, just maybe next week you'll like the person.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  But, you know, and so, it's so similar to sort of what we do as human beings when we get in relationships. It's like you meet somebody and you fall in love and you kind of project like your idea of who they are onto them. And, you know, a lot of that might not be, really be rooted in any reality. And so then, you know, when, you know, then when the person that we've projected this idea onto then steps out of that framework of what we think they are, then immediately, you know, we're like, "I hate you."

• 13:27Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the nature. I mean, that is like, you know, the essence of schadenfreude. It's, you know, especially in our celebrity-driven TMZ culture. You know, we like to pick a hero, put them up on a pedestal, and then as soon as they get huge, now it's time to tear them down, you know, because they're not doing something exactly the way that we would like them to do. And that's just, that's the nature of it.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, what we're doing here is we're not, you know, we're not participating in that paradigm, and we're doing something very, very different. So we're being very authentic, very transparent, and, you know, it's, it's not that energy. So be careful not to bring that energy into it because the person that will, that will lose the benefit is the person, you know, that makes the extreme judgment and then...

• 14:12Rich Roll?

  Or like, you mean like this sort of dualistic, like it's one way or the other way?

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, why does it have to be? I mean, we're trying to just say, okay, we know that there's a lot of differences in the world, and we're trying to bridge those gaps. And it's the same way with the Plant Power Way. It's like, you know, our cookbook, it's for everybody. We didn't make it for vegans. We didn't make it for plant-based people. You know, I had, we had our dear friends over for 4th of July. They eat meat, and I cook plant-based, and we all were together, and we're learning from each other. We're exchanging, we're experiencing life.

• 14:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think, you know, just to be clear, I'm fine with feedback. Like, if you have a critique of anything that I'm doing, like, I'm happy to entertain that and hear that. Like, I'm not against criticism. Like, I understand, I'm fallible, and I'm trying to do this as best as I can, and I have a lot to learn, and I can continue to get better. So I'm not saying that, I'm just saying, what am I saying? I don't know what I'm saying.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  You're saying, just, just understand that, you know, that you're going to be presenting as wide of a perspective as you can find. And if you find a guest that you, you find a morsel of truth in, or something, you know, redemptive, or something... Transformative in that person's journey, you're looking for people that have had transformation in their lives and that is over a wide spectrum of scenarios.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  I'm looking for, I'm just looking for anything that interests me about, you know, anybody like if somebody has something compelling to contribute, you know, and I feel like I can elucidate that if I can bring that out in a conversation, then that intrigues me now. I remember what I was going to say, which is that, look, not every guest is going to be the most amazing guest, like I can't hit a home run every single time, like I'm gonna try.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  You can't.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  I try.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  We expect you to.

• 15:55Rich Roll?

  I put that pressure on myself, but you know, what are we on 157 episodes or something like that, I think the track record is pretty good.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:01Rich Roll?

  But, but, you know, I understand that it's not a, it's not a, you know, an even keel, like, you know.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  It's just not black and, black or white, there's going to be different flavors, you know, there are different flavors in creation, different colors, different things people like, you know, and we had another, another letter along the same, the same, same lines and someone had wrote in and said that, you know, they didn't like the Daniel Pynchbeck, you know, episode, so she had made a decision to stop listening to the podcast and then she came back and heard the Q and A last week and it opened her heart and she was so grateful, but she was so sweet to, thank you for being so transparent and so honest with your process because we learned from that, so, you know, we're glad you're back and, you know, we're glad that you had that process and, and we're just, we're just happy that by sharing some of our experience, you know, it's giving you a little bit of support and a little bit

• 16:54Speaker 01

  of inspiration along the way.

• 16:55Rich Roll?

  All right, well, we didn't even plan on talking about any of that.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  I told you it was going to go off.

• 17:00Rich Roll?

  I know, but why don't we, why don't we like sort of kick it into gear and embark on perhaps a subject matter that, like we said earlier, is percolating in your.

• 17:14Rich Roll?

  The forefront of your consciousness.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  So can I introduce this one?

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  So Rich asked me what I might like to talk about. And I was really sort of feeling what was relevant right now, at least in my life and what I've been hearing about, is the idea of what is true health. And I think that there's a lot of people, including us, who are talking about different kinds of diet, the plant-based diet, or paleo diet, or this kind of diet, or butter in your coffee, or whatever it is. And there's a little bit of an illusion that some diet is going to stop, or make you immortal, or stop any of the other conditions that happen to us as human beings to occur.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  So looking at what is overall health, is meditating on, of course, it's spiritual connection. We always say we're spiritual beings having a human experience. And it's also environmental, it's ancestral, it has to do with where you live in the world, what you're exposed to, what is your lineage, what is your genetic makeup? And all of these things can be overcome through spiritual practice, through a plant-based diet. And there are even more reasons why you should care about what you're putting in your mouth, because we're all subject to these other conditions that are happening. But I do have some friends around that are struggling with health.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I myself have struggled with health over the years and still am trying to sort of unravel this puzzle that is whatever is causing severe headaches within my physical self. And also, receiving letters and contact from podcast fans who are in a different kind of experience, like they're fighting for their lives. And they've discovered some sort of imbalance or disease, and they're in the middle of treatment. So I wanted to sort of talk about this, like what is real health? What is ultimate health? You know, how do we navigate through these experiences that life bring up for our review?

• 19:21Rich Roll?

  Well, certainly, it's much more comprehensive than the kind of conventional narrative of having, you know, a skinny waist and, you know, looking good in a selfie, you know, I mean, and that's why we always go back to the phrase beyond the kale. I mean, that's really what beyond the kale means because I think that optimal health certainly can and does for many people begin with what you put on your plate and what you put in your mouth. It's certainly the most kind of tactile, tangible thing that connects you to how you feel and how your body is functioning, but it's so much more than that. And like I always say, like, if you're like a crazy person in your relationships, or

• 20:00Rich Roll?

  you're unreliable, or you're a liar, or, you know, you're not, you're, whatever you're eating still is not working for you, or you're sick, or any number of, you know, a bazillion variables, those are all relevant to your health. Like, how healthy are you if you're eating, you can eat the most pristine diet ever, but if, but if, if, if sort of your food choices become so obsessive that it creates a lot of anxiety in your life, that's not healthy either, right? So, how do we strike a balance and attend to all the multitude of things that, that, you know, come into play in terms of our overall well-being?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Well, in, in, in, starting with food, I kind of want to discuss like kind of another level of awareness that, that came in for me personally, and that is that I have had severe type headaches, you know, since I was in my late twenties. And I've always categorized them to be migraines, but they're actually not migraines. They don't have the same qualities of a typical migraine, but they're very, very severe headaches. And for years, I was, I was explaining that You know, I'll wake up and I feel like something crawled in my spine and it's constricting from the top and the bottom simultaneously. And I also described for years that it wasn't

• 21:25Speaker 01

  just a headache that I was having, that I literally could feel it in my entire body. I could feel it in my spine. And so I would describe the feeling of these headaches as if somebody opened up the top of my head and screamed down my spine. And that would, that would sort of characterize the level of stress and panic and like almost I was completely shaken from the inside out. That's how these headaches sort of manifested for me. And so for years, I tried many different things. In the beginning, I went to see medical doctors. I got some steroid shots into my, right into my head, you know, which is interesting.

• 22:05Rich Roll?

  Well, you used to get prescribed that super hardcore migraine.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Well, I would have to for a long time ago. Like I haven't taken any, any prescription drugs for about 15 years. But before then, I would take, you know, the typical migraine medications like Imetrex, you know, I tried all kinds of different things. And early on, it would get really bad. And I would, I did end up in emergency a couple of times getting a Demerol shot. And then the more yoga that I practiced, then the less I could tolerate any kind of drug. And so just getting over the Demerol was just as stressful as having the headache. So anyway, I've tried to, to figure this out my whole life. And, and just recently, within the last year, I had a food sensitivity test, which is, is a, it's called

• 22:53Speaker 01

  an Alcat test. And, and what I did is I went in and got a panel done. And they, they usually come in packages. So you can pick, you know, a certain package that has all these different foods in it. And because I'm, excuse me, because I'm vegan, and because I don't eat a lot of those foods, I actually went in and checked and made a very specific custom list. And they checked, checked me for hundreds of foods, and then also for all these herbs. And when I received the results back, it's a blood test. And there, it's a three level sensitivity. So there's an extreme column, a moderate, and then a mild. And what I found from this test is that thankfully, I was only severely allergic to like five things.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  So in the beginning, I think to my, I looked on the extreme list and I saw lime juice was in that column and instantly I was like, that's, that's wonderful because if any of you have my cookbook, you know that I cook a lot with lemon and not as much with lime, like rarely with lime. So I was like, oh, okay, that's good. I have that handled. And then I eliminated those severe foods, eliminated the moderately sensitive foods and started rotating the ones that are in the mild column. And it took me another six months after I discovered that I was allergic to lime, that I eat Mexican food easy three times a week.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  And all Mexican food has lime juice in it. And so I have been poisoning myself with lime juice for all of these years. So now I'm at this other level of awareness with this test and I, you know, I just think to myself like, how, how much pain would I have saved myself had I spent the $400? It's like, it's a pretty expensive test. It's 400, 450, something like that, to get this test done so that I, so that I would know. But I can't go in the past. So anyway, I'm just, now I'm really exploring this and I, and I would like more people to know that this test exists because I think it could be a great service to anybody.

• 24:54Rich Roll?

  It's called ALCAT test?

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, A-L-C-A-T. And you can get it at, you know, any kind of lab that does any kind of blood work.

• 25:02Rich Roll?

  I'll see if there's anything online that I can put in the show notes for that.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  But, but, all right. So to bring it back to the original query, which is what is true health? I mean, how has this impacted the frequency of the headaches? And kind of what are you extracting from this experience that is applicable to that question?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Well, again, I mean, you know, I, I eat extremely healthy and I eat very vibrantly. Okay. So I wasn't in touch with, with the awareness that there could be something that was made in creation that I was allergic to. Like, I just wasn't in touch with that at that level. And when you're allergic to something, it's like poison to your system. And so now that I look back on how I describe these headaches. I see now why my spine felt that way, why it was in your whole body. So I think that, you know, it's not enough, you know, it's not enough to say, well, I eat really well. It's like, we have to keep searching, you know, at, at, you know, deeper and deeper levels.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  The other thing that I learned from, from actually this test experience is that I had made myself mildly sensitive to foods that I like by eating them too frequently. So, again, we have to understand that we need to vary foods according to season, according to region, so that you're eating in harmony with nature. You know, nature didn't expect you to eat peaches 12 months a year. You're gonna get a problem from that. You can't just say, oh, I love peaches and then eat them all, you know, every day. So I didn't, I wasn't really in touch with that on that level, because I just wasn't. It just wasn't in my awareness. And I was doing, you know, spiritual practice, like I've done, you know, tons of healing work to clear

• 26:44Speaker 01

  past life karma and this kind of stuff related to the headaches. And it has helped and it has shifted and changed over the years. But I was missing this other, you know, very specific connection.

• 26:56Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, solving this riddle has been, you know, a double decade.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, a long time.

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  For you of trying eight billion different things and, and thinking, oh, I think I've got it. And then something will happen and then you're, then it happens again. And it's sort of back to the drawing board. And I've noticed that when you're kind of out of your consistent yoga practice and you return to it and, and maybe you do a class that's a little bit overly rigorous, you know, given the lack of consistency, you know, in, in your current schedule, that you'll, that'll, that'll knock you out.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Well, it will.

• 27:29Rich Roll?

  So it's even, so that, that has nothing to do with lime juice.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  No, I mean, but lime juice is, and again, it gets complicated because we're complicated individuals. So for me, it's not just, like lime juice isn't the answer, begin, middle and end.

• 27:42Rich Roll?

  Right, so that's my point, it's a more.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a large part of the issue. It's a large part of the issue. And I tested it. So like when I was testing the cookbook. And I was testing the chia lime recipe. You know, I had a moment. This is a really delicious dessert and it has the zest of lime in the crust and the juice of three limes. So I was testing it. I wanted to know how it tasted and for a moment there, I was like, oh, I'm not really allergic. Like, how could that be? Like, how could I really be that allergic? So I ate a slice of pie and I literally woke up at three o'clock in the morning in lockdown. I could not move. So it was good because, you know, every time I learn, it's more information and I can apply that.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  But I'm just saying, if anybody has something persistent that they're having problems with that's in imbalance, you really should get tested for food sensitivity because they can tell if you're gluten sensitive. They can tell if they test dairy. They, you know, they test also all kinds of alternative herbs that you might be taking, you know, for other, for other things. So it's a, I think it's a very relevant test and it's very, very important and it will help you to get sort of a global on, you know, what foods are healing for you and what foods may be aggravating your system.

• 29:05Rich Roll?

  I want to get back to another kind of aspect of, of the original question, what is true health? And, and, and kind of delve a little bit into this idea of, of treating diet like it's some kind of life salvation. And, you know, in certain respects, you can make that argument, like adopting this way of eating for myself changed everything for me and set my life on a new trajectory. We just, last week's podcast, it was with Fully Raw Christina, and she was somebody who was very sick, you know, when she was a young person, discovered a raw vegan diet when she met some dude at the grocery store and that like changed her life and her trajectory. So there's millions of these stories.

• 29:46Rich Roll?

  And I think there's a temptation with that narrative to then say, this is the, you know, the panacea for every crisis that afflicts me in the world. Right? This idea that this diet, or whatever diet it is, it could be whatever diet in your experience, like solved your problem. And that comes in different shapes of forms depending upon who you are, but that this is the, the answer to like basically every single one of your life problems.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:15Rich Roll?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  So, and nor is that the case, nor does it make you a superior human being.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  No, it does not.

• 30:24Rich Roll?

  It might give you an experience that you can share in service to other people and, and part of that message may be in service to humanity and the planet and all those sorts of things, but, but again, this is not a, uh, this is a much more dynamic scenario than a dualistic situation of good and bad or black or white, right? And, and true health, to get back to the original inquiry, uh, is much more expansive than the food item that you're choosing or that you are advocating.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  That's right, and, and it's very specific and very individual. And how more individual could you be than, like, you know, I think also just having this test also put me in touch with even more deeply how every plant and vegetable has a specific blueprint. So, I'm allergic to lime but not lemon, you know, and if you are allergic to red, green lettuce but not butter lettuce. So, it's not like a lettuce is a lettuce is a lettuce.

• 31:22Rich Roll?

  And it's a very specific weird thing that is, I don't know how those, that, that Alcat test works or whatever, but how, how it works, but, you know, that it was pretty interesting to look at your results and I certainly should do it because I haven't done it yet, but, but, you know, a lot of people, kind of related to that, people ask me, well, what's my blood type, right? Because there's the blood type diet and this, the what kind of blood means you eat, what ba, ba, ba, but.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  But actually, Rich is an O blood type.

• 31:47Rich Roll?

  I'm O, which is the type that.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  It means he has to eat meat according to that diet, which is not correct for him.

• 31:52Rich Roll?

  According to that philosophy, yeah, I'm supposed to be eating meat all the time, which certainly isn't, isn't what I'm doing. But, you know, kind of taking a tip from that and saying, okay, so we're on the same page, it's not all about the diet. Well, then what is it all about? Like, where do you go from there? What are the other things that need to be looked at, addressed and given your, you know, dutiful attention?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Well, I think when you go back into Ayurveda, which is, you know, the science of medicine that assisted me in healing the cyst in my neck. And it's, you know, Ayurveda is so specific. It's for whom and when. It's like, at what time of the day? You know, it's so individual that it cannot be a blanket prescription for any one person.

• 32:39Rich Roll?

  For somebody who's new or doesn't know what Ayurveda is, why don't you quickly explain?

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's a science of Eastern Indian medicine, and it's basically been passed down from sages to student, guru to student for, you know, thousands of years. And it's about the science of healing the body. The belief is that the body is a divine organism, and that if any disease or imbalance comes in, they fortify the body to achieve its balance of perfection, rather than attack the disease. So it's totally different than Western medicine.

• 33:12Rich Roll?

  It's about correcting an imbalance to bring all of your systems into balance so that your body can do what it does best, which is, you know, function properly, heal itself.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 33:23Rich Roll?

  Is that correct?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  That's correct. So, and I healed myself of a cyst using this system over a two-year period, and I was diagnosed incurable, saved surgery from three different surgeons. And it's a very, very powerful practice, and it is using plants as medicine, which is largely, you know, what we're doing with the Plant Power Way and everything that has shifted Rich's life. But what we're saying is, you can't stop there, and you can't also have this blanket idea that what's good for one person is good for, you know, the next person in the exact same way. So, we're just saying that...

• 34:00Rich Roll?

  But I think, like, just to jump on that for a second and play devil's advocate, somebody could then take that argument and use it to say, "Well, you know, eating plant-based is great for you, but like, I crave dairy, like, I really like cheese, so it doesn't work for me." Like, it can be, I think it can be twisted or misconstrued, misused, to be a convenient excuse to not make a better choice for yourself.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. Well, I mean, anybody who wants to do it can twist anything. So, I'm not saying that eating meat or dairy is good for anybody. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying within the plant kingdom and within a life... People have different genetics and different things they're dealing with and different things they're going through, and I think ultimately, the responsibility relies within the individual. That is how life is orchestrated. Each being is coming in with enough energy to realize itself. And my enlightenment journey is not going to look like your enlightenment journey, right? There's, you can look for like signs and for inspiration and for posts

• 35:06Speaker 01

  like along the way, but don't expect your life to mimic another being's life. It's not going to. And if you, if you're looking out and you're wanting it to be exactly like another being, you're gonna miss your own journey. So again, it's this thing as humans that we, we want somebody to tell us the prescription, or to give us, to hit us on the head with a magic wand and have it all figured out. And again, it comes down to self-responsibility, self-regulating. Only you can tell the world what is locked inside your heart, what is yearning to come out. And, you know, eating plant-based and becoming healthy and understanding that you can clear yourself and, and, and connect with your

• 35:51Speaker 01

  authentic self by, you know, eating vital, vibrant, healthy foods and taking care of yourself, is the beginning step. And there's a lot of other layers beyond that.

• 36:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think what happens is, and I've said this before, you know, I don't wanna go into it too long, because I don't wanna be too repetitive, but essentially what you see, and I've seen quite a bit of this over the last couple of years of kind of traveling and going to a lot of like, you know, veg fests and things like that, where, you know, you tend to be sort of preaching your message to the already converted, you know, to the proverbial choir. And, and you see people that have had a transformative experience as a result of, of, you know, stumbling into this lifestyle, whether it's through health or, you know, a sense of advocacy for, you know, a political or environmental cause or what have you. But then it becomes all about that, right? Like sort of the growth

• 36:48Rich Roll?

  and the evolution is arrested. Like the, the individual evolves to a place to then find this lifestyle, have this transformative experience, and then, and then they stop. And then it's all about that. Like, and, and you see like, this fixation on the food, you know, as if, as if... It doesn't go any further than that, like what kind of kale is on your plate? Or, you know, obsessing about that to the extent of almost, um, you know, madness is too strong of a word, but like-

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Insanity.

• 37:19Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, it becomes like, it's like, dude, you know, I got, I got, like, I got sober so that I could have, have a good life, right? And I changed my diet so that I could repair my physical corpus and, you know, restore my vitality so that I could then channel that energy, that life force, into a new and more positive, more authentic direction for myself that could perhaps be of service to, you know, my family and to myself and to the world at large. But had I just stopped at the plate of kale and then it just becomes all about that, then I think you're missing the larger, you know, the larger path here, the larger-

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Right, the entire point. And, you know, no diet is going to stop you from experiencing life. And, you know, all of us are going to die. We're all gonna drop the body at some point. So, I mean, kale, kale is not going to stop that from happening, so-

• 38:17Rich Roll?

  Right, I mean, every, actually, let's just talk about this for a second because, uh, you know, certainly, I think that so much of our, our pain and misery is rooted in our tremendous fear of death, right? But at the same time, we are, we are the, the biggest proponents of like, death denial of any culture on the planet. We all think that, we all intellectually understand that we're going to die, right? But on an individual basis, deep down, we all think that we're gonna be the ones that actually aren't going to. We're gonna somehow elude this thing that everyone else is, is, you know, sort of going to fall prey to. And we function, we, you know, our lives operate on that assumption in many ways.

• 39:02Rich Roll?

  And so it's no mistake that when you see these people that have these near-death experiences, that then they're in touch with, you know, life in a new and different way because of this experience of suddenly almost being robbed of, of, of life. Um, and again, we intellectually understand those experiences, but we have so much difficulty incorporating them into our lives. And, and part of that is so, is because of this cultural entrenchment of- Denying the reality that we are going to die and you see it everywhere, right? So Julie joked the other day, she's like, "I want to write a children's book and I'm gonna call it, I'm gonna call it, 'We All Die.'"

• 39:37Speaker 01

  No, everybody, everybody dies.

• 39:40Rich Roll?

  Everybody dies.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  You know the book, the book, "Everybody Poops" or something, remember? So, yeah, I was like, "Everybody dies." Who was I talking to? I was talking to somebody about the, just the hilarity of that whole illusion. I just don't understand it. I mean, I've been, I've been aware and focused and studying dying since I, since I can remember. And I don't understand people that spend all this time and they're like, "Whoa, you're so out there." I'm like, "No, I'm actually not," you know? And just the gripping and hanging on to it. I mean, I love life, I'm so happy to be here, I plan on being here. I'm here to live and, and just experience the most full that I can. And I'm also completely relieved knowing that there ultimately is no death and that there is only a transition into other forms. And to me, that's extremely freeing.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Like, that's like, "Oh, thank God, what a relief." You know, 'cause it would be so sad if it was just, we're gonna like, grow up, you know, get in huge debt, go to school, then leave college with huge debt, get a car, have kids, drive around, buy stuff, and then, then kick it and the lights are out and there's nothing else.

• 40:53Rich Roll?

  Well, how about like, you know, the idea that somebody is trying to pursue their dream, right? And the responsible thing at some point, when it doesn't look like it's working out is like, "Okay, well, you know, time to back out of that thing and, you know, just go get the cubicle job because, you know, you gotta pay the rent and all that kind of thing." But when you step back and you really embrace the idea that you're gonna die and it, like, whether or not you believe in an afterlife or not, like, this is your shot at like, sort of having this human experience. And let's, let's presume for the sake of argument that this is your one shot at that. You got one go around. We have this idea that like, "Oh, we'll just do it next time."

• 41:36Rich Roll?

  And, you know, that's a bizarre mental trick. Like, should you ever give up on your dream? If this is really the only go around that you have, why would you then sort of step back and say, "Oh, well..." You know, I guess I'll do this other thing that doesn't make me very happy for the next 25 years.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, I mean, I can't, I think that's a tragedy. I think that's, that's a, that's a human tragedy right there, for somebody not to realize themselves.

• 42:04Rich Roll?

  Right. And so a healthy appreciation of the, you know, of our inherent mortality, that we are going to die, is something that I think we could all benefit from. But we were joking when you were like, I'm gonna write this children's book.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Everybody dies.

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  And I was like, I was like, here's how it's gonna go. Like, you know, how did I start it? It was like, will I die today? Will I die tomorrow? Aunt Judy died yesterday. You know, like, you could do the sing-songy rhythm of like, a children's book, and how preposterous it is, because that book would never sell. Like, no publisher would ever touch that book.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Which is why

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  Because it's so terrifying.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Which is why I'm going to self-publish it.

• 42:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  No, I mean, the thing is, is it's just, it's

• 42:43Rich Roll?

  A children's book, laying in bed with your child, like, reading this book.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, it's, it's part of life. It's like, it's, you're born and then you die. Like, it's a part of life. Like, it's part of our birthright. It's part of who we are. And to pretend that it's not happening, this is what leads to, you know, horrific plastic surgery, and monstrous things that we do to ourselves to try to avoid that. And people looking at you like, oh, do you have the panacea? Like, the, you know, the ageless, the immortality. And it's like, yeah, I mean, spiritual practice will lead you to those things, you know, beyond the body. But to be focused in the media, and advertising, and, and drugs, and, you know, shooting botox into your pineal gland, so that you're brain-dead

• 43:29Speaker 01

  and you can't, you know, connect with the spiritual realms, because, you know, you're competing with other women that are younger than you are. What, all of these things that we generate, you know, we cultivate it in our culture. And it's totally backward. It doesn't make any sense.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  Well, our relationship with aging is incredibly dysfunctional. And I just, I have a stack of, of questions from audience members, and this one just happens to be sitting on the top, and it's kind of apropos to what we're talking about. It's from a guy called Philip, and he, he says a few things, but then he says, "My question for you is a little complicated, perhaps, but it is basically, how do you monitor, track, or observe the aging process in your own life? How does it come to play? And what is your relationship with aging in general? What is your attitude towards it? And how does it affect your body, mind, and spirit?" It goes on, but that's basically the idea behind it. And, you know, my perspective on it is I am, I acknowledge that I'm getting older.

• 44:30Rich Roll?

  Like, I'm gonna be 50 pretty soon. Like, I'm turning 49 in a couple of months. So I'm like, whoa, 50, you know? And like, 40 was where I kind of had the epiphany that began this whole thing. So I'm almost 10 years into that. And, you know, I can't arrest the aging process, nor do I want to. I want to embrace it in a healthy way. But I think at the same time, in many ways, you know, you have to define aging and how you contemplate that. Because I don't think of myself aging in the way that other people do. Like, in certain respects, aging is a decision, right? It's a mental construct. Like, my skin is going to become less elastic and I'm getting more gray hair. But beyond that, I can go out and train and keep my body physically fit, and it's doing

• 45:15Rich Roll?

  just fine. And my energy levels are good. And I relate to my children, you know, in a way that I, that feels less paternal and more fraternal in a certain respect. Like, I feel like a young person, you know? And as the boys mature into their twenties, like, they're my friends. And I feel like, I don't feel this sort of huge gap, like, oh, I'm the elder statesman. Like, I don't perceive myself as such. Like, I think it's a mental attitude about how I see myself. So that doesn't slow down the, you know, the, the, the calendar, but I think it impacts

• 45:59Rich Roll?

  how I, you know, approach my day, I guess. That was sort of all over the place. I don't know if that was a very concrete answer to that question, but I think my perspective on aging is, I don't really think about it that much.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you think about it a little bit. But I think that, I mean, I think for me, you're more attractive today than you've ever been in your entire life.

• 46:24Rich Roll?

  Because?

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Because you are connected with yourself, you're connected with your dharma or your life purpose, what you're supposed to be doing. Because you're physically more attractive, because you don't have the density of the processed food and of the fat and the extra stuff that was covering up your real essence. And because I happen to love men that have gray hair and that have a little age on them, it's actually extremely attractive to me. So you're very, very fit. I think, you know, you're, you know, at 50, which is so young, you know, it's so young really in today's world. You know, they're talking about lifespan now being, you know, over 100. And so, you know, there could be a lot of years left, you know, we don't know.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  But anyway, I'm very, very, feel very blessed to be your soulmate and lover and partner and wife.

• 47:17Rich Roll?

  Well, it is, the feeling is mutual. And I would say that you're pretty freaking hot.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Rich Rolden said, "I'm freaking hot on a podcast." That's pretty funny. No, but I would say, I want to, I want to share this honestly, and I would, I would say that I am a, I'm a designer and I'm a, I'm into aesthetics to a great degree, and I do pay attention to these things. And I'm very aware of my aging as a woman. And I think that there is definitely a double standard in our society for women and men. So it's very different for a man to go through an aging process than it is for a woman. And I'm hoping to rewrite some of these things along with some other women out there that

• 48:11Speaker 01

  are starting to transform and connect to themselves, you know, at this age. I am going to be 53 in two weeks.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  And, you know, the beginning, like, I used to think I would lie about my age, and I guess you can't now in the internet age, anyway, but I decided not to, so I was, I was open about it. I'm very fit, I feel great. I do every single thing that I can to take care of myself, and that includes taking care of my skin. And, you know, I'll do anything that I need to do that does not involve injecting my face with bovine toxins. So, I really think that we-

• 48:51Rich Roll?

  Or the rest of your body with any kind of, I mean, you haven't had any cosmetic surgery, just to be clear.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Just to be clear. We have to be very, very, very, we have to be conscious and we have to look at what we're doing. And, you know, it has to be everybody's personal choice, and there's absolutely no judgment or no projection, you know, on anybody's, anybody's choice in life in what they choose to do to their physical bodies, whether it's tattoos or piercings, it's all personal. But I just, if it's being driven because you're looking at a magazine cover and you're comparing yourself, we have to shift. We have to shift the way that this is experienced. And in Vedic teachings, you know, a woman enters her most creative phase after 50.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And so this is the time when the woman has given birth to the children and done, you know, all the service in the family, and this is the heightened creative time in a woman's life. And so I was very, kind of, sort of surprised when I learned that, when I, I had a meeting with one of my spiritual teachers, His Holiness Vidya Dushananda. And he was very clear to him that I was entering my most creative stage now and what I was going to be contributing to the world on this level. So, you know, that being said, I think it takes a shift from men and women in the way we're looking at women as objects, objectifying women.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And it's ingrained so much in the population, I don't even think we know how to not do it. So it's a it's a new day, it's a new age, and we'll have to see.

• 50:35Rich Roll?

  How to not do what?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  How to not objectify women. I don't really even know if we know how. I don't know if we have enough role models of women that are in their eternal radiance of their heart that are not, you know, also in a wet t-shirt.

• 50:52Rich Roll?

  Well, I think those women exist. It's just a function of whether the, you know, the mainstream media decides to pay attention to them, which of course they don't. You know what I mean? There's plenty of women doing amazing things that are in their power and, you know, working hard to change the world, but they're not going to be on the cover of Us Weekly. You know, it doesn't work that way.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think it's up to us and it's up to those of us that are, you know, cultivating the new media and doing podcasts to showcase those kind of individuals and people. And we need to acknowledge as a whole that we have collectively, you know, done a disservice to women. And it's there, it is time for it to change. It is changing and it will change. It's, there's some amazing changes going on, but we have to acknowledge that that that really does exist. We can't act like it.

• 51:45Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, do you think that we deny that that exists? I mean, I think we we know that that exists.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think it's so status quo and it's so ingrained. You know, same thing, use of pornography, like, oh, that's just normal, that's what guys do. That's not normal and it's not honoring to women and it's not honoring to yourself or to, you know, a healthy, really connected sexual relationship. And I mean, you and I have never used any pornography in our marriage, none. So, and we've been together for over 15 years, is that right?

• 52:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how do we do that?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Well, we have a very, very creative intimate connection. And it's like, you know, we are connected, looking in each other's eyes, like, it's a very creative experience when we come together to be intimate. And, you know, I think that that's a key reason that our relationship has developed the way that it has, because when you're looking at something as low vibration as pornography, you know, it's, there's just nothing good about it. And it's become sort of like, oh, well, that's just what guys do. No, that's not. That's actually not. It's actually something that has infiltrated the population and.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  It's not high vibrating and if you check into your heart, you know that. You will know that.

• 53:06Rich Roll?

  Well, it becomes something that desensitizes you. You know, and it becomes an impediment or a barrier to truly being intimate with somebody else.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Very well said. Yeah, very well said.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  So, so how have we stayed together for 15 years? Is it 15? I never know whether it's 15 or 16.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  This is our 12th anniversary coming up, actually, on the 12th of July.

• 53:29Rich Roll?

  Oh, in July.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  No, hi, August. Dude.

• 53:31Rich Roll?

  Dude.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  July 12th, honey.

• 53:33Rich Roll?

  That's right, it is coming up.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Remember the date?

• 53:35Rich Roll?

  What are we doing about that?

• 53:36Speaker 01

  I don't know, we'll figure it out. We'll do something spontaneous. Now, well, last year, we renewed our vows.

• 53:41Rich Roll?

  But we've been together since like 15. Like, basically from, yeah, like it.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  1999, was it?

• 53:48Rich Roll?

  2000, well, we met in 99, yeah. So, yeah, I guess 16 years.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a long time. Yeah, I mean, how have we done that? I think we've done that by having open communication. I mean, if I had to pick one thing, I think we share, we share a natural cadence for life. We actually like hanging around with each other. I think we enjoy our humor on sometimes, when you're humorous.

• 54:17Rich Roll?

  But I also think, you know, because now we're in this situation where our, like, family and marriage and professional lives are so intertwined, right? Like, we're working together, we're, you know, writing books together, we're doing this podcast right now, we're rearing children, we're married, all these sorts of things, that there's this idea that we're, we're sitting next to each other for 18 hours a day.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  We're the same person?

• 54:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, we just did a, when we were in New York City, we did a podcast, kind of, I guess you would call it a cross-cast with James Altucher and his wife Claudia. And we haven't aired that yet, and I think they're gonna air it on one of their podcasts, and we'll do it on ours at the same time, or something like that. But, basically, they work together, so we had an interesting conversation about, like, how they navigate, like, their marriage and raising kids, but also working together. And comparing it with kind of how we do it. And they, their experience is a little bit different because they're like attached to the hip.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  They're literally together all the time.

• 55:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that's not, I think that wouldn't work for us.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  That would not work for us.

• 55:22Rich Roll?

  So I think one of the, the keys that has allowed us to be successful is respecting each other's sort of boundaries and not needing to kind of control that. Like you let me like, hey, it's time for you to go do this thing. You go do that. I don't get involved in that. Right?

• 55:37Speaker 01

  We're kind of like, we're kind of like cats. We sort of do our own thing. We're kind of independent of each other.

• 55:44Rich Roll?

  That's too pejorative though, because cats are like.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Then when we come together to connect, it's, it's a big deal.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  We just sort of give each other space. No, we're very different.

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  Respecting, kind of having healthy, like allowing each other to have our own self-sovereignty and respecting that and not needing to control that. Right? Like I do things, it's like, you're not a runner. We're not going out running together.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  No, we're not.

• 56:10Rich Roll?

  We're not that couple. Like we have different interests and we, like you go do your thing and I go do my thing and that's cool and I'm cool with you doing that and you understand that I need to do these things for myself. And you don't try to manipulate or control that or undermine that. Like you respect that and understand, oh, this is who this guy is. This is what he needs to do. In order for us to be happy, I need to allow him that.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:33Rich Roll?

  And similarly with you.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, we enjoy our independence a lot and it's again, for us, it's never been about a lot of hours together, standing next to each other. So, you know, we, there's a lot of space in that. There's a tremendous amount of space, I'd say, is it in, on a daily basis. And then when we work on projects together, we still do it separately. Like I'm not, I could not sit next to you and do it. It's like we sort of, we sort of delegate tasks and then people go off and do them and then we come back together and we can, we show up well, I think, in a public forum or like when we made our movie together and we were shooting, like during the shoot. We do those things very, very well.

• 57:10Rich Roll?

  Because we have complementary, you know, skillsets that are yin and yang. Like I do things differently than you, but when we're on a project basis thing, like your skillset fills in where I'm lacking and vice versa.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 57:22Rich Roll?

  But we don't, we don't, we don't approach like, for example, a writing project in the same way. Like your way of like. Kind of going through that is very different than mine.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  That's right, and if we tried to.

• 57:33Rich Roll?

  If we were to try to sit together, that wouldn't work.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  It would be, there would be a lot of fighting. And there still was some fighting going on.

• 57:40Rich Roll?

  Of course. But fighting, but being able to fight and, and you know, do it in kind of a healthy way where you can get to, you know, a healthy resolution, I think is an important aspect of being in a long-term relationship. You can't, you can't be in a long-term relationship and think you're not going to fight.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  No, that's true, and I think also one of our, one of our strengths is being able to know that we completely hate the action or the thing that the person did, but we know always that we love the person who did it. So the action is separate from the person, so, so knowing that that love is there makes it, you know, makes us able to, to get through the, whatever the disagreement is, or whatever the condition is, and somehow work it out to the other side. Because when you know somebody really loves you, then you're able to really express yourself. And sometimes that's not, you know, it's not maybe the

• 58:43Speaker 01

  most gentle thing, or the nicest thing, but at least it's true and it's real, and you know that the person ultimately is there for you.

• 58:50Rich Roll?

  Right, because that threat that they're going to leave is removed, right? Because I think that's the fear, like, oh, if I'm myself, then they'll realize that I'm not the person they think I am, and then they're going to leave me, right? But if you remove that fear of the relationship ending and provide that safe space to, like, if there's that confidence, like, okay, no matter what you tell me, we're, we're together, or I'm with you, or I'm your partner, then you can kind of create that space to feel comfortable with that level of honesty, right?

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much.

• 59:20Rich Roll?

  What else would you say to young, young couples out there that are trying to figure out how to move forward in a healthy way for the long term?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I would say just, you know, make sure you communicate. So communicating is key. You really need to talk. You can't hold things in, and you can't... You know, you can't harbor things and then keep score. Really stay in the moment and then really let it go and understand that in each moment, you can let everything go. You don't have to hold on that you had a huge fight last week. Okay. Or even yesterday, or even two hours ago. You can just let it go and the energy is very, very in support of moving that stuff along. So just drop it and go back to heart connection. And, um, and communicate respectfully and, you know, understand you can tell somebody,

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  you know, I love you, I love you unconditionally and I didn't like it when you did that action.

• 1:00:21Rich Roll?

  Sometimes it's really hard to drop it. I mean, you can give lip service to that, but actually truly dropping it is very difficult. And I think a powerful tool that can be helpful in, in kind of getting you to that place is, let's say you've had a fight or you have a resentment about your partner or something they did or what have you, and it's occupying all this space in your mind and destabilizing you emotionally. A great thing to do, and I learned this in recovery, is just to do some inventory around it, like write down your part in that scenario because you always have a part, right? It takes two for every sort of thing.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Even if you think you don't, you did.

• 1:00:57Rich Roll?

  And even if you feel like that person completely wronged you and they're completely 100% in the wrong, if you can kind of recount how that scenario came to be and just focus entirely on how, if at all, you have contributed yourself to that happening, then I think that will give you some objective clarity. And more often than not, when I do this, I realize that I'm basically the root cause of the whole problem to begin with.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Usually.

• 1:01:25Rich Roll?

  And certainly, that's not, that's not a comfortable thing to do, but being able to own that also will help you relieve yourself of that resentment, alleviate that resentment. And, you know, look, for me, resentment is poison. That's the thing that, that is, it's like death for me and I cannot afford to entertain resentment, although I find myself resentful quite often. My work is constantly and continually trying to, um, uh, you know, free myself from that and it takes a lot of work. But, you know, if you're feeling resentful, you're the one who's suffering irrespective of what anybody else did to you or what have you, you are the one who is suffering. And the only person who can, um...

• 1:02:08Rich Roll?

  Alleviate that is you, right, through the work that you're doing. So if you're angry at your partner because they did this and they did that, it doesn't matter if you're completely in the right. That resentment that you're cultivating is causing you to suffer, not them. So you have to figure out a way to get to the other side of that.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  That's right. It leads me to one of my favorite quotes from a beautiful realized Indian woman saint. Her name was Anandamohima and she said once, "Every man is right from his own point of view."

• 1:02:45Rich Roll?

  So what do you want me to do with that?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  No, it's just, it's something to like, understand, right?

• 1:02:50Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Because if every man's right from his own point of view, then you know, it's like you can have compassion and you can understand. And I mean, I used to get caught in that when I was a lot younger of, you know, you can either be right or you can have a happy marriage. Or you can be right and you can have a fulfilling life and connection.

• 1:03:09Rich Roll?

  Do you want to be right? Do you want to be happy?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Or you want to be happy. So it's like when you remember that, that beautiful, you know, truth that she said, "Every man is right from his own point of view." Then suddenly you're like, "Oh yeah, I can stop fighting." And you can also have your perspective, you know, you can have your perspective and still, um, and still be, you know, still be compassionate and still be forgiving. And, uh, you know, forgiveness is, is the, the greatest gift that you can give yourself. You think you're giving it to the other person, but you're really giving it to yourself when you make the decision to forgive.

• 1:03:48Rich Roll?

  And I think that when you're in the practice of doing that kind of inventory, and it doesn't have to be just with any dispute with someone you're in a relationship with, it can be over anything. When you're consistently in the practice of trying to break down the root of whatever resentment or fear that you're experiencing. You start to see patterns and the patterns that emerge are really your character defects or your kind of default behavior patterns that are leading you to these places. And the more clarity that you can get on those behavior traits, right? Character defects, whatever you want to call them, then the more objective you can be about how you're actually navigating the world. Like, oh, I noticed that when I'm in this situation, I tend to act like this because my button gets pushed and I react or whatever it is.

• 1:04:33Rich Roll?

  And I'm now noticing that every time I do that, this is what occurs and then this is how I feel and then this is what happens and none of this is good. So let's back it up. How can I try to act differently when these scenarios arise? And I think just that self-awareness, that self-knowledge is a great first place to start to reconfigure how you react in that given, when those sort of set of circumstances come up.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Great.

• 1:05:00Rich Roll?

  No?

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Perfect. Yes, I agree. Those are good.

• 1:05:04Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's like all recovery one-on-one stuff.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  And that's great. That's the beauty of recovery is it really gives you all those tools.

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  But the thing is, it's not about just mulling it over in your head. It's actually about getting a pen out and writing it down on paper. There's something about that, doing that, that tactile experience that is where the magic occurs for whatever reason.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Well, I've certainly been the beneficiary of the product of program recovery work.

• 1:05:35Rich Roll?

  But you've also been on the receiving end of some...

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Of alcoholism.

• 1:05:39Rich Roll?

  The negative aspect of me as sort of being active in my disease, not in a drinking or using drugs context, but just in the way that my behavior tends to kind of...

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Flare up.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Flare up.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Rear its head.

• 1:05:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like...

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I know, I mean, I know it's not you. It's not really you. It's not the really you. So, you know...

• 1:06:03Rich Roll?

  Well, you've developed this very kind of...

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Observer, witness consciousness.

• 1:06:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like I was gonna say compassionate, but it's not compassionate, it's dispassionate. Like you'll just kind of watch it and go, "Oh, look what he's doing. That's pretty interesting." Because you know it's not me and you're like, "Yeah, well, I'll let this play out and I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing." And you don't let it bother you because you are like, "Oh yeah, that thing is happening right now."

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:06:26Rich Roll?

  But that's probably after years and years and years of like going, "Okay, here he goes again with that thing."

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  It's the witness consciousness. I just keep my awareness on you and see perfection and it eventually shows up.

• 1:06:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm trying to get you to react and you're not reacting and then I just kind of turn my head and leave the room.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  And resent me. You just turn and resent me for not reacting.

• 1:06:48Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  So, what I would like to talk about is, I would like to talk about a dear person in Rich in my life who actually is in need of some support and some care, who is going through some tremendous life challenges. And her name is Abby Scoville. And we met, I actually met Abby, I had just started recording my record at my Fred, Brad Swanson's engineering studio. And, you know, as most of you know, I received these songs in meditation and I actually became a musician with my boys Tyler and Trapper. And we were starting to record some of these songs in the earlier years, probably around 2008. And I really

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  wanted some strings on my song, actually two of my songs, "A Mother of Mine" and "I'm Here Now." And I asked Brad if he knew of a cellist and he said, "Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do. It's this girl Abby." And I said, "Well, let me think about it." And I went home and I was really conflicted because I really cherished and valued the fact that my boys and I had played everything and that it was just my family on the recording. But I called Brad back and said, "Yeah, go ahead and bring her in." And so, he brought Abby into the studio. When I met Abby, she's just the most beautiful, bright, vibrant, you know, just gorgeous. You know, we called her Abby Ferry because she has just such

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  beautiful energy. And I remember she went in to do the take and Brad had sent her the track ahead of time. It wasn't really working, it wasn't in the right feeling for me and I asked Brad if I could talk to her and I described what I would like her to play in emotion. So I told her, you know, longing, longing, tortured, you know, sweetness. This is how I spoke to her. And she said, yeah, okay, I got that. And she laid down these cello tracks that were just the most beautiful performances I've ever heard. It was basically one take. I put two tracks on top of each other for Mother of Mine and she created this amazing ambiance

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  on this track that is just extraordinary. And as the years went on, Abby actually came and lived with us at our home. She took care of the girls for a while and actually shared with the girls some of her trinkets from her childhood and fell in love with one of our dogs, Dogma. She wanted to adopt our dog for a while, but we weren't ready to do that. So, anyway, we've been calling Abby to play. Every single live performance I've had, I've called her, I've reached out to her and she's sometimes gotten back to me and sometimes not and just politely declined. And everybody else I know in LA has been trying to get

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  her to play on their stuff. And we just didn't know why she wasn't in touch with us. And I recently found out that she's been suffering from a physical disability for quite some time and she's in kind of a dire situation. Some beautiful friends set up a GoFundMe campaign for her. Charlene, who's a violinist in LA, created the website for her and we're going to be trying to raise funds for her, for her healing. She seems to have some kind of autoimmune issue. They think she may have suffered a stroke that's affected her brain cognitive ability. And she's, how old are you? She's probably thirty, thirty-five, maybe. I don't think she's that old.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  You don't think she's that old? She's maybe like thirty-one, thirty-two or something. Yeah. And she actually, I mean, she performed with James Taylor onstage in 1997. She's an extraordinary cellist, an extraordinary human being and...

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  She really needs help. So I'm going to be having a benefit concert for her actually at our house in the coming months. I think September, we're going to try to find a date. But in the meantime, there is this crowdfunding campaign. So we're going to put a link in the show notes. And at the end of today's show, we're going to include "Mother of Mine", which is the track that she played on. And for anybody that's listening, just if you have ever been touched by my music, or you've ever, you're a music lover, or you've ever enjoyed, you know, any of the content that we've given you, we really ask for everybody

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  to reach out and put our arms around this beautiful being and see if we can support her in coming back to health. They have some doctors lined up and, you know, some protocol lined up. So there is hope. You know, she's not, she's, she just can't drive, but she is walking. And so hopefully she'll be able to rehabilitate.

• 1:11:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she's a, she's a beautiful girl, an extraordinary talent, and somebody who at such a young age, certainly, you know, is someone you would not expect to be suffering so horribly from, from illness and disease to the extent that she is. I mean, it's, it's pretty crazy. So in any event, we'll put the link up in the show notes to the GoFundMe campaign and take a moment and read up on that and check it out and consider getting involved. And we'll keep you posted on the benefit concert for those of you who are in LA. Yeah.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it'd be great.

• 1:12:23Rich Roll?

  All right, cool.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:12:24Rich Roll?

  All right, that's it, you guys. Thank you for subscribing to the show. Thanks for spreading the word on social media. And thank you for making a habit of always clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. Super great, easy, fun way to support the show without having to spend any money because you're going to buy stuff on Amazon already, right? So why don't you just click the banner ad at richroll.com and you can You can bookmark that link and put it up at the top of your browser. So you don't even have to come to my site. It's always right there, convenient for you and a win-win for everybody. Keep sending your questions for future Q and A podcast to [email protected].

• 1:13:07Rich Roll?

  As I mentioned the other day, we are now officially doing two episodes every week. So you can feel free to just start sending tons of emails with tons of questions because we're going to be doing lots of these shows coming up. What else? I think that's it. We're ready to close it down.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:13:24Rich Roll?

  For all the rest of your plant power needs, you can go to ritual.com. Nutrition products, Julie's meditation program is there, Julie's music at srimati.com. And you can follow her on Twitter and Instagram at, it's Sri Mati, but if I say that, everybody thinks it's SH. It's S R I M A T I, right?

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:13:45Rich Roll?

  That's how you can connect with her.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Follow me on Instagram. I'm posting a lot of food photos there and inspiration.

• 1:13:51Rich Roll?

  That's true. That is very true. What else? What song are we going to close this out with?

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  We're going to close it out with "Mother of Mine."

• 1:13:59Rich Roll?

  Okay, because Abby, you can listen to Abby's.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Abby's on there. And also, I put, "I'm Here Now" was on the last Q and A, and she played on that as well. So those are her two. She's just so beautiful.

• 1:14:09Rich Roll?

  Right, very cool. And final thought, a lot of people who are listening don't know that we have an app.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Oh, we have an app, everyone.

• 1:14:17Rich Roll?

  I get emails every day, like, "How come there's only 50 episodes up on iTunes? I want to listen to the whole catalog." Well, the easiest way to access the whole catalog is, for free, is just to get our app, our mobile app for iOS devices, for your iPhone. Has the entire catalog on there. It's got the show notes and all that kind of cool stuff. So thanks for supporting the show. Tell a friend, leave us a review on iTunes, all that kind of good stuff. And we'll see you in a couple of days, right?

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:14:45Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. We're done.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  We're done.

• 1:14:48Rich Roll?

  Did we do it?

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  We did it.

• 1:14:50Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Sign off.

• 1:14:52Rich Roll?

  All right. Bye. Peace. Bye.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Namaste.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Golden pink blush home and wash away Won't you come in, chocolate steaming?

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Hold me in your arms and don't let go, mother

• 1:15:41Speaker 02

  Oh, mother, mother of mine

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Open up, silly, I'm coming in

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Why all the tears? Love is all around for you to share Come, my darling, let me kiss your head

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  I never wore so beautiful eyes, right now with you there

• 1:16:39Speaker 02

  Shining your light on my face

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  Sit down next to me and rest awhile I don't wanna leave you here It's not time, it's not time Stay a little while longer We can play that game The one you always let me win

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  Rock me in your arms and don't let go, mother.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  Oh, mother.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  Mother of mine.

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  I'm so lost, I don't know where to go, mother.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Oh, mother.

• 1:18:13Speaker 02

  Mother of mine.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  On the journey home, stars pulsing bright.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Can you see me here?

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  Love is eternal, and we are one. You already have everything.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  I never had to let you in, oh. Just look at you there.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  Shining, your light on the world.

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  I never had to let you in, no. Just look at you.

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  You are the beauty of life.

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  On the journey home, vast is the night.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  Can you feel me here?