Why You Feel Drained (a Different Take) | Iyanla Vanzant

Stop outsourcing your peace. Feeling better is an inside job. We often feel exhausted, not because life is so difficult (which it can be), but because our minds are full of old wounds, unresolved feelings, self-destructive stories, and subconscious rules that secretly run the show…and leave us empty. In this episode, Jonathan sits down with acclaimed spiritual teacher and 19-time bestselling author, Iyanla Vanzant, to explore a radically practical idea: spiritual hygiene. Drawing from her new book Spiritual Hygiene: A Practical Path for Clean Living, Inner Authority, and Divine Freedom https://amzn.to/4jtrQCc, Iyanla offers a grounded, compassionate framework for clearing emotional residue, reclaiming inner authority, and tending to your inner life with the same care you give your outer one. In this episode, discover: • The hidden inner rulers like fear, shame, and unforgiveness that quietly shape behavior, identity, and decision making. • Why we feel spiritually congested, and how constant reliance on external fixes keeps us disconnected from our own inner power. • What spiritual hygiene actually looks like as a daily practice, not a belief system, and why small, consistent acts matter more than dramatic breakthroughs. • How to reclaim inner authority without fixing, forcing, or bypassing pain, and why presence is often more powerful than effort. • A gentler path to healing that does not require perfection, years of struggle, or becoming someone new before you begin. This is a conversation about cleaning from the inside out. About creating space for clarity, honesty, and peace. And about remembering that your inner life is not something to outsource, avoid, or conquer, but something to care for with intention and respect. You can find Iyanla at: Website https://iyanla.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/iyanlavanzant/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/iyanla-vanzant-spiritualhygiene-innerauthority-spiritualawakening If you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Thema Bryant https://pod.link/goodlifeproject/episode/NjY5YTlmOTE2YTJmM2E1OTRkM2NjODlj about healing trauma and reclaiming your true self. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So we often feel exhausted, not because life is so difficult, but because our minds are full of old wounds, unresolved feelings, self-destructive stories, and subconscious rules that just secretly run the show and leave us empty. Today, I'm sitting down with Iyanla Van Zandt, the New York Times bestselling author of 19 books with more than 10 million copies sold, and the host and executive producer of the television series, Iyanla Fix My Life. Her newest book is titled Spiritual Hygiene, and we're exploring a radically practical idea. We talk about really daily, simple habits and practices that help clear emotional residue, how unseen inner rulers like fear and shame shape our choices,

• 0:45Jonathan Fields?

  and how to reclaim inner authority without fixing or forcing what hurts. We also explore why so many of us feel spiritually congested and what it really takes to clean from the inside out in a way that's gentle, honest, and sustainable. If you've ever sensed that something inside feels crowded or noisy, even when it looks fine on the outside, this conversation offers a different way in, one that restores clarity and agency and peace by listening more deeply to what is already there. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

• 1:32Speaker 01

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• 2:02Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 2:35Speaker 03

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• 3:05Jonathan Fields?

  I realize that you and I have an interesting shared background. In very past lives, we apparently both went to law school in New York in the late 80s, practiced for about three years. I think you were in the Philly Public Defender's Office. I was actually at the SEC in New York.

• 3:22Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 3:23Jonathan Fields?

  And then had this awakening that said, maybe this isn't the right path for me. So I'm really curious, what happened for you in that time that kind of made you say, this just isn't right for me?

• 3:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I was doing criminal law, so I was in and out of jail every single day.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  And I learned that I think the prison or jail is the one place on the planet where there is no love. There's not a frequency of love. There's not a vibration of love. There's nobody is loving anybody in the prison. And love just isn't there. So that was the first thing. So that kind of threw me off balance. But for me, it was really a spiritual directive. I went back to my office one day and I couldn't get the lights to come on in my office. And I told my, the secretary, I said, send somebody up to see about my lights. My lights won't come on. And she came in the office and she said, she flipped the switch. She said, something must be wrong with your eyes because these lights are working fine.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  And in that moment, I heard, leave here and never come back. And I did. I went on that day. I never went back. I didn't, I don't have, I didn't have my law degree, my honey, my tea, my pencils, nothing. I left and I never went back. Because it was clear to me that that was not a place where I could experience or give or share love.

• 4:49Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. Was it just crystal clear and you never looked back?

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Never looked back.

• 4:54Jonathan Fields?

  Really?

• 4:55Speaker 04

  Never looked back. You know, I was well into my spiritual journey at that time.

• 4:59Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  And so I, I could follow guidance. I was learning about obedience and I had three children and a cat. And no job.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  I, but I knew, I just knew. But what I had learned, Jonathan, and this was it. You know, in the days that followed when I'm really trying to figure out, oh my God, what have I done? Do I need to go back? What I got very clearly was, I didn't go to law school to learn man's law. I went to law school to do two things. To develop my mind, because I did not have a well-developed mind. And two, to understand the distinction between man's law and God's law.

• 5:42Speaker 04

  I got, that was very clear to me. And I didn't know what I was gonna do about it, but those two things were very clear.

• 5:49Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So when you wake up the morning after, you decide, I'm leaving this thing. The next morning, you open your eyes, you've got three kids, you've got a cat.

• 5:59Jonathan Fields?

  Do you have a plan?

• 6:00Speaker 04

  No.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  Who has a plan? Absolutely not. I had no plan. None whatsoever.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  And really, in that period, that's when I wrote my first book, Tapping the Power Within. And this is what happens. You know, when you're on purpose, Jonathan, things just line up. It's an elegant, graceful unfolding. So as any good author back in the eighties, I went to Kinko's with my book and self-published it.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  I went to Kinko's and self-published it. There was a woman who worked in there who helped me lay it out. It was amazing. So I self-published my first book and sold it out the trunk of my car.

• 6:44Jonathan Fields?

  That's amazing. And so tell me about what unfolded from that? I mean, was this a sort of a slow build? Did something happen that made a catch?

• 6:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I would sell it on consignment to small bookstores. I was living in Philadelphia at the time. And there were a number of them that would take 10 or 12 copies from me. And they would sell it and I'd go back a week or two later and pick up my money, you know, for my $10. And then they talked to some sellers in New York and New Jersey. So the book started moving. Someone, I don't know who, saw it, got it. And a publisher in New York called me and said they wanted to publish the book. Again, when you're on purpose, when you're aligned, everything unfolds. You can't orchestrate it. And they published Tapping the Power Within. That was in 19...

• 7:37Speaker 04

  I don't want to talk about it. Don't make me talk about it.

• 7:43Jonathan Fields?

  So as we sit here having this conversation, you're now 17, 18 books into your writing career? Is that right?

• 7:50Speaker 04

  Nineteen.

• 7:50Jonathan Fields?

  Somewhere around there? Nineteen, nineteen. Right, and I guess the new one would be. And having sold more than 10 million copies of books. When you first did that deal where you took that very first book and you signed with a New York publisher, in your mind, in your heart, was there any sense what would unfold over the next couple of decades would unfold?

• 8:15Speaker 04

  None whatsoever. I did Tapping the Power Within. And I put that out and I did some book signings. And then Marie Brown, the same agent, said that Simon & Schuster wanted a book to support people of color dealing with stress. Would I be able to write the book? Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 8:39Jonathan Fields?

  Have some experience there.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 8:41Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 8:42Speaker 04

  And so that they contracted me for Acts of Faith. Um, and I always write to the title. I learned back then, I get my title, I don't know what's going in the book. I get my title and then it just, it unfolds in me, through me, as me. So, and I, I still, I had no idea, none whatsoever. Um, I mean, I had so much help and support along the way from on high and personally. After I wrote, I think Acts of Faith was out. Dr. Dennis Kimbrough, who wrote, uh, Think and Grow Rich, A Black Choice. He inherited the manuscripts of Napoleon Hill. He was one of the people that Napoleon left his manuscripts to. And I met him, we were in the Washington DC Conference Center.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  He said, come here, come here. I didn't know him. He said, come here, come here. He said, I want to tell you something. Specialize. Specialize. Don't just write books. Specialize. Figure out, are you a teacher who writes or a writer who teaches? That's what Dr. Dennis Kimbrough said to me. And I, I, it blew my mind. And I said, okay. And I took that in and I worked with it, I chewed on it, I sat with it. And it came to me very clearly, I'm not a writer. Who teaches. I'm a teacher who writes. What I write is the curriculum that I'm teaching at a particular time.

• 10:07Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I, I love that framing. Um, and that's a question that I think so many folks who write and who feel like they have something to say. It's, it's such a powerful question because I don't think many of us ask that question.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:19Jonathan Fields?

  You know, um, like what's supporting what?

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Very often, and I get it all the time, I'm sure you do, people say, I want to write a book, I want to write a book. I said, okay, so sit down and write a book. But, but I want to know, I need, what do you need help doing? Do you want to write a book? Or do you want to write a bestselling, highly acclaimed book? What do you want to write? Okay, a bestselling, highly acclaimed book. Why? What's that intention? What's that motivation? And that usually sends them screaming from the room.

• 10:50Speaker 04

  I never had an intention to write a bestselling book because I think by the time I wrote Faith in the Valley, which was my third or fourth book, I realized I wasn't even writing for the people, I was writing for myself. I was trying to heal myself. And if they got healed in the process, good for them. But I was really writing because that's my purpose. I'm a teacher who writes, and I needed those curriculums.

• 11:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, that makes so much sense. So as we sit here in this conversation, we're having this on the eve of your new book Spiritual Hygiene coming out. Let's talk about the phrase itself, Spiritual Hygiene, because this is interesting.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:28Jonathan Fields?

  Take me into this.

• 11:29Speaker 04

  People are spiritually congested, spiritually constipated, spiritually contaminated. Because we have been so programmed, conditioned, taught now to do everything externally. Everything is external. We look out for everything. Even if you want to get some information from my dear friend Professor Google, you gotta go out, you know? Everything is out. And so we are spiritually congested. And again, some people contaminated, which means that

• 12:06Speaker 04

  we are not aware of, aligned with, using our innate power as divine and noble beings of the Creator. We're codependent on something outside of us for everything. And I'm concerned. I'm very concerned that with the way things are unfolding and developing in the world, if people don't get back to their self, to their center, to their truth, to their power, that many, many people who have great gifts and things to share are going to perish because they don't believe they can do it anymore. I saw it during COVID.

• 12:52Speaker 04

  The way people were just, their hair was on fire because they had to be still for five minutes.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  And then what happened? I saw it just recently and the government shut down.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  The depth of despair. Because people's work experience had shifted. I had to tell a friend of mine, you act like that job is your source. That job is not your source. It's a vehicle. It's a way that the source gets to you. And people don't think like that anymore. It's so dependent on everything external. And that makes us kind of dirty inside. Because it's a practice. You know, we're committed to brushing our teeth, putting on deodorant, combing our hair. You know, whatever we're doing. We're committed to that and we do it.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  You know, people have their barber appointment every two or three weeks, their nail appointment, their pedicure, their, you know, wax the hairs off your chin.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  But they never stop to say, have I processed the upset I had with my sister five years ago?

• 14:10Speaker 04

  Am I really clear about how I feel about my father who left 20 years ago? Am I still hating my ex? And we've been divorced 10 years, you know? We don't process that stuff. We don't process. And now because of the language, everyone has a trauma response and that's where they leave it. Oh, that's my trauma response. You in the streets screaming at people on the highway like a park ape. You got to do something about that.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  You can't just say that's your trauma response and leave it. So that's what the hygiene part of it's spiritual because it's within, not without.

• 14:53Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is sponsored by Sequencing. So in midlife, we start noticing some of the things our parents carried and how they're showing up in their health and their lives and wondering what we're carrying too. Sequencing.com can help. According to Sequencing, most popular DNA tests read about a tenth of 1% of your DNA. Sequencing.com reads all 3.2 billion positions and screens for genetic variants linked to over 15,000 diseases, conditions, and traits. That can mean catching inherited risks early and understanding how certain medications may affect you so you can talk it through with your doctor. Just swab your cheek, mail it back, and their CLIA-certified, CAP-accredited US lab handles

• 15:38Jonathan Fields?

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• 16:21Jonathan Fields?

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• 17:06Jonathan Fields?

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• 17:25Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com/Bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 17:58Jonathan Fields?

  One of the things that you explore early on is this notion of us having an internal throne. Who sits on that throne for most people?

• 18:08Speaker 04

  Fear, the past, unforgiveness, unworthiness. For most people. We've acquiesced our throne to what I call in the book illegitimate rulers. Fear of failing, fear of not going to happen. And along with fear comes doubt, unworthiness, I don't deserve it, I can't have it. Unforgiveness, oh, Lord, unforgiveness. Those things sit in the throne because, again, we haven't processed out, cleaned up, the

• 18:49Speaker 04

  experiences attached to those emotions that give them permission to exist within us.

• 18:55Jonathan Fields?

  And I guess the risk here is that when they sit there long enough, they cause harm in all sorts of ways that we often don't associate with them sitting there. I mean, this also probably leads to the conversation around what you call spiritual smog.

• 19:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. Spiritual smog, because after a while, you can't hear... Let me give you a classic example. I grew up as a chubby kid. At least I thought I was chubby. I grew up as a chubby kid. Well into my adulthood, I always thought that I was chubby. I always thought I was fat. I could not see myself. And you know, I'm in a size ten or size eight, twelve, whatever. And I'm still seeing myself as fat. Because I had never processed out what it felt like to be called fat chubby big as a child. So that was in my throne. And it became the filter through which I saw everything.

• 19:59Speaker 04

  Uh, my grandmother had a, a, a saying for me. She said, you were bad to the bone. You're just bad, bad to the bone. And so I grew up thinking I was bad. Everything was bad. And here's the, here's the, I call these cooties, these thoughts that are in there chewing on our brain. When that thought is in the throne and when it's playing out, you will do things unconsciously to make it right. You will engage in behaviors or practices, or you will behave in ways that make that thought accurate. See, I told you you were bad. See, I told you you were fat. So you go in the store and you have this beautiful dress and they have it in every size but yours.

• 20:44Speaker 04

  Cause you're fat, you know? Or you have a, a outbreak in, in the, you know, the church or funeral and everybody's looking at you like you're, cause you're bad. You're bad, whatever it is. We don't understand how those thoughts then become the filter through which we see and behave.

• 21:04Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and it becomes this self reinforcing mechanism that says whatever that negative message that you were passed that you associate with yourself, rather than just looking at the experience that we, that happens around us as neutral. Um, we just adopt the story that reinforces the negative message. And, and I guess the real risk here also is of, you know, you, you keep hitting repeat on that.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 21:29Jonathan Fields?

  And it turns from a story into identity.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  Yes. You got it. You must have read my book.

• 21:36Jonathan Fields?

  No. Who knew?

• 21:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And that's why we have to do the hygiene. Because so many of us now have a false identity. We're living way beneath the truth of who we are. And again, we're codependent on external things that really don't reinforce the truth of who we are.

• 22:01Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. So to get to the truth of who we are then,

• 22:08Jonathan Fields?

  we really need to start with being honest. You know, and this is the mirror that you talk about.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:16Jonathan Fields?

  So how do we do that? Because I think we've all heard, well, you know, the first step is to actually own the reality of where you are, own the truth.

• 22:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:28Jonathan Fields?

  But I think a lot of us, we've heard that. We probably nod along and say, well, yeah, sure. That makes sense, you know? If I've got a problem, first I've got to acknowledge I have a problem. Or if there's something, if there's a story I'm telling myself that's harmful to myself, I've got to actually acknowledge. How do we actually explore the act of self-honesty with integrity? And also not rationalize or minimalize or sort of spiritualize away hard things at the same time?

• 22:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. I think the step before we can be honest is to be aware. Some of us are not even aware of how crazy we are. And I don't mean crazy in a bad sense. I mean, you know, what our habits are, what our behaviors are, what our quirks are. We have to become aware. And you know how you become aware? The thing that scares the blazing bejesus out of most people? Be still.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Breathe. Just be still. Sit down. Ask a simple question and wait for the answer to come forward. That is so hard for people to do in today's world. Just be still. And then when it comes up, to be honest about it, not to excuse it away, not to excuse it, not to suppress it. Because all of us have the things we have to face about ourselves that we'd rather not see or know. The cooties. Everybody has cooties. You know, I have a saying, call a thing a thing. Call your ugly ugly. Call your mean mean. Call your anger anger. Call a thing a thing. Because everybody's got a thing.

• 24:07Speaker 04

  And then, once you see the thing and you call it what it is, you become aware of it, now tell yourself the truth about it. And one of the truths is it came to teach you. It really did. You have to ask. It came to teach you. Here's a thing. So I learned, and this was, I'd say maybe ten, twelve years ago. Whenever I'm feeling depleted, or, or empty, or, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm clear about those things. You know what I do? I spend money. I go shopping. And I buy stuff. Like to fill the void.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  So one day, I was cleaning out my closet, because I just had no place else to put nothing else I was buying. Jonathan, I had two and three of the same thing with the tags hanging on it. Had never worn them. Sweaters, jackets, two and three, not just one, two or three. I said, well, at least I'm consistent in my crazy, you know? And I had to sit down and ask, okay, what is this? What am I doing here? But I wasn't even aware that I was doing it. So I couldn't look at it and tell myself the truth about it until I became aware of it.

• 25:34Speaker 04

  And I had to come up with something else. And it was a simple thing. When I just go shopping without an intention, before I buy anything, I would stop and ask myself, why are you buying this? Why are you buying this? Do you want it? Or are you filling a void? And if I found that I was voided or overwhelmed, I wouldn't get it. I wouldn't buy it. I'd have to go home and do some work. Simple.

• 26:02Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. We all have our version of that, right?

• 26:04Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:04Jonathan Fields?

  You know, for you, it might have been purchasing things. For somebody else, it may be eating. For other people, it may be substance. But you're tying it back to this notion of the first step is awareness, though. Right? Because you can't even know to ask that question until you have a mechanism to kind of stop and just ask the awareness question, which for you was, why am I buying this? For somebody else, it might be, why am I eating this? Why am I drinking this? Why am I staying in bed? Like, why am I? So it's an interesting prompt, I think, maybe just to offer out to everyone is to ask the "Why am I..." when you're doing something that may actually be serving as, on the one hand, a coping mechanism, but on the other hand, a distraction from you

• 26:49Jonathan Fields?

  sitting with something that is never going to be processed in a healthy way until you actually deal with it.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  And an even deeper question is, and I would ask myself this too, what am I feeling right now? And that's where people really get stuck, because most people are emotionally illiterate. They know happy, sad, they know angry, they know peace, maybe, but there is a wide range of emotions that people are totally illiterate about. We're emotionally illiterate. We don't know. We can't tell the difference between anxiety and gas. You know, you don't know what you're doing. So, what am I feeling right now? And then trace that back, you know, this thing that happened at work today upset me, or whatever it is.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  And then, if you ask the "Why am I buying? Why am I eating? Why am I laying? Why..." You'll probably get to "Because I feel so-and-so." Then you can take that feeling down. And the good news is that we're living in a time right now, I'm sure you know this, Shantanu, where it can happen so quickly. The energy, the frequency of the universe is moving so quickly. It doesn't take 10 years of therapy anymore. You don't need five crystals rubbing on your head. You know, you can affirm, you can decree, you can declare, you can choose, just that quickly. So that's the good news.

• 28:19Jonathan Fields?

  So when we hit that moment, and we wake up to the fact that, oh, like, this is, there's something else going on here, and we want to start to do things to unwind whatever it is that we're feeling, the feeling underneath the "why," right?

• 28:41Jonathan Fields?

  A lot of it is going to tie back in some way to, okay, so something happened to me, or I did something, or there's something in my past that has, that's staying with me. You mentioned earlier this notion of trauma that I think so many of us, the word trauma has been normalized, capital T, trauma, small t, trauma, to a point where we all feel like on some level, we're just walking around with various, varying bundles of trauma. And we probably are in some way, shape or form. The question though has always been for me, well, okay, so what do we do with that? You know, and how does the notion of spiritual hygiene help us process that so that we don't keep going back to the same other unhealthy coping mechanism over and over and over?

• 29:22Jonathan Fields?

  Often, as you referred to earlier, something external to deal with something that's internal.

• 29:28Speaker 04

  Well, one of the things we have to understand is a lot, trauma is a sudden, unexpected shock to the system, to the body, that leaves an imprint. And sometime there's recurring trauma, you know, whether it's physical abuse. In, in spiritual hygiene, I talk about poverty as a trauma, neglect as a trauma, hunger as a trauma, because some people have had those things that weren't even classified as trauma, and they're responding to it in a certain way in their life today because they've suppressed it. Some of the things we inherit, some of it's not even ours.

• 30:07Speaker 04

  And that can be guilt, that can be shame, that can be poverty, alcoholism. So what spiritual hygiene does, first of all, the committed daily practice or action of cleaning up the inside, simply with breath, with stillness, maybe journaling, maybe inquiring within, simple daily practice. It begins to loosen up the strings that, that keep those things in place. It begins to excavate the illegal rulers, the illegitimate rulers from the throne, and things begin to get clear. And again, you don't have to...

• 30:48Speaker 04

  You know, drag yourself through the mud anymore. It can be a simple sexual abuse, sexual abuse trauma, physical trauma. I had them both. Physical trauma and sexual abuse trauma, abuse trauma, negligence, poverty. I had them all. So I was a walking trauma factory, you know? And each of them motivated a behavior. So when I became aware of the behaviors, then I could address the trauma. And sometimes it was simply as simple as forgiveness. Sometimes it was just that simple. Sometime it took a little, something a little deeper.

• 31:33Speaker 04

  But we have the power to do that. We have the right and the inherent power to clean our spirit and our soul. And one of the things that I talk about in the, in spiritual hygiene is my daughter Nisa, who practiced very poor spiritual hygiene, because that's what I taught her. And that's what she inherited from me. And as I evolved and, and grew, I could see in how she was living that that was my stuff. How she responded to it was one thing. But I could see very clearly my stuff on her.

• 32:16Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I think probably any parent or anyone who's been in any sort of parenting role often sees that in the next generation. Because we're all just doing the best we can at any given time. Like, nobody's perfect.

• 32:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. Earlier, you said, you know, we want to know what to do. And I want to, I want to encourage people to first be with the thing. So you do, let's say you do the 20 minutes of writing or you have the awareness. Be with it. Don't try to fix it, don't try to change it. Just be with it. Hold the thought. Allow it to bring impressions and visions to you. And that will stir up in your body, everything associated with it, that you can then release, forgive, wash away. People would, would be surprised at how profound it is to wash your hands of something, literally. Put your hands in the water. Get you a little soap.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  And I am releasing the need to, I am releasing the habit of, I am releasing, and let that water run over your head. Unbelievable. Another one, this may be a little gross for people, but one of my teachers taught me this many, many years ago. When you sit down in your bathroom to do your business, put your hands over your head, palms facing each other, and I release. I release, you know, anger, I release shame, I release the need to defend myself. I release, I release. As you're releasing, release. Because everything begins with a word. Simple things that we can do.

• 34:03Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 34:05Jonathan Fields?

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• 34:47Jonathan Fields?

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• 35:20Jonathan Fields?

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• 36:05Jonathan Fields?

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• 36:12Speaker 01

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.

• 36:46Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, it brings up another interesting issue, and this is one of the things that you write about, which is when what we've been holding often for so long, for years or decades, becomes such a part of us and it becomes a part of our identity, even if it's causing us pain on a regular basis and we're in deep need of healing, it's a part of us. And if and when we come to that moment that you describe, where we first sit with it, we become aware of it, we sit with it, we create whatever ritual is right for us to start to release it, there can be this weird grieving experience. You know, there's a, there's a loss that we can feel, and I wonder whether there's

• 37:28Jonathan Fields?

  a voice inside of us that says, I don't want to feel the grief of losing this part of my identity, so I'm going to hold on to it even though I know it's causing me pain. How do we move through releasing and move through the grief that often comes through releasing something that we even, we know is, is not for us and is holding us back?

• 37:50Speaker 04

  I do a whole, I think, chapter and a half on grief. Grief is celebration, grief has release. Grief is such a holy process. It's an initiation, it is a clearing, it is a gift. Because the one thing that grief does, whether you're grieving a thing, or a person, or a situation, it teaches you how to love differently. Grief does that. So, we have to be willing, because most of us run from grief. We don't want to feel it. We confuse grieving and mourning. Mourning is a much heavier energy, where there's a lot of regret and remorse,

• 38:33Speaker 04

  and sometime resentment in mourning. Whereas grief is a natural, organic process. And it will come and it will go. But we don't want to feel that. We're adverse to... Because sometimes it's so deep, particularly when what you're grieving is a part of you. And I talk about that in the book. My different identities. That I had to mourn, I had to let go in what I was moving into. So, when we learn to see grief differently, when we learn how to handle it differently, approach it differently, you can release your old self. Your little girl, you can grieve that, your teenager. You can grieve that.

• 39:16Speaker 04

  So, I want to just invite us to see grief as an initiation and a healing process, rather than as this thing that's gonna suck us into a black hole that we'll never come out of. Because you'll learn how to love you differently.

• 39:39Jonathan Fields?

  Is there a question, or a prompt, or an invitation that might help us start to see grief, or process it differently?

• 39:48Speaker 04

  Well, there are a number of them. One of the things that I ask myself when I know I'm grieving something, or it's time for me to let something go, but particularly in grief. And I had to do this with my daughter, Nisa, when she passed. I had to ask myself, okay...

• 40:08Speaker 04

  What are you holding on to?

• 40:11Speaker 04

  What are you holding on to? And what I realized with her was I was holding on to the belief that I had done something wrong. I'm the mama, my baby should not be dying.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  I also recognized that I was holding on to the grief that I had failed her in some way. So those were things that I was holding on to that had nothing to do with her. That was my stuff. And I think sometimes if we ask ourselves, what am I holding on to? That will come up. I just did some work with a woman recently who had lost her mom. And she was holding on to the pillow that her mother laid on and and every time she saw it, she would cry. And I would say, okay, so tell me what those tears are. And she said gratitude. And I was like, wow. Would you tell your face?

• 41:10Speaker 04

  That you're grateful? That you have this memory? Because otherwise, the fact that you've tied this gratitude to the fact that your mother's not here, you won't even recognize the the blessing of the gratitude that you have. You'll think it's something dark and bad because she's gone. That's gonna pass. That's gonna pass. The the physical missing in your, it will pass. I know people think it won't, but it does. But ask yourself in the midst of that, what am I holding on to? Even when it's a part of you. What am I holding on to?

• 41:47Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's a powerful question. You you also brought up in that story of your daughter, this notion that you were asking yourself. You know, like you sort of like took on the blame. Like, what did I do wrong here? And and this is one of the things you write about also is this notion of spiritual responsibility. Like, where is the line between what I legitimately take ownership of and what is actually not mine to own?

• 42:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:15Jonathan Fields?

  And even of the things that I do own, how do I do that without shame?

• 42:21Speaker 04

  Hmm, good. That's a good one. Yeah. Well, when you own your stuff, you know, when you take it on and you own it. No blame, no shame, no regret, no remorse. And the way to cut through all of that, what was I learning? What was I teaching? And again, all of this stuff takes us back inside. You can't get these answers outside. What was I learning that supported this behavior? This choice, this way of being? What was I teaching that supported this choice? This way of being? What was I teaching? What was I learning? Simple questions that we ask. And when you do, things begin to come.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  The cleaner you are on the inside. So if you're doing your daily breathing, your daily stillness, your daily silence, your stretching, bending, whatever it is, drinking water, whatever it is that you're doing, the answers will come clearer and they'll come quicker. You know? Because once you own it, as a mom, for example, and I talk about this in the book. I'm very clear, certain things I passed on to my children. Poor spiritual hygiene was one of them. Poor spiritual hygiene and a low self-worth, a self-esteem. And then as I shifted and tried to give them the information, it was not my responsibility that they did it or took it on.

• 43:49Speaker 04

  It was their responsibility. And I think sometimes, particularly as moms, we want our kids to get it because we got it. And that doesn't mean that it's for them to get. And we have to be okay with that. I write about in the book that I didn't even go to my daughter's funeral because my grandson was just unsafe for me. To make that choice, to take care of me first, as opposed to following the tradition and I got, no, I don't have to be there. I do not. I'm not going to put myself in harm's way. And I had to own that part of the reason he was the way he was, was because she was the way she was.

• 44:34Speaker 04

  And I owned my part of that, but I wasn't going to stay stuck in it.

• 44:39Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, complimenting that also, for you to be able to actually own that is also a sign of you understanding your own center, a clarity around like, this is who I am. This is the ground that I stand on, and this is the spiritual space that I inhabit, the presence that I inhabit, and also this is who I am not and what I am not open to bringing into that center. And again, these are things that you've spoken about and you write about. Something where, again, somebody hears phrases like that, find your center, like find the thing that keeps you steady, and everyone nods along and says, well, sure, that makes a lot of sense.

• 45:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:22Jonathan Fields?

  And then, and then some version of, I wish I could do that, too. How do I do that? How do I do that? Like, if they can't wrap their head around, how do you actually make that real in your life?

• 45:31Speaker 04

  You know, my father, with whom I had a very tenuously dysfunctional relationship, gave me a lesson that has held me up. And at the time he gave it to me, I didn't receive it as a lesson. I thought he was just being his normal old wicked self. He gave me three things to do, and once I started doing them, my life changed. Sit down, shut up, and listen. That's it. That's how you find your center. Sit down, shut up, and listen. Within. Such

• 46:11Speaker 04

  a simple thing. Now, when he gave it to me, you know, he was in his upset with me. But it has become a prescription that I use quite often. If I've got a big decision to make, if I'm confused about something, if I'm feeling out of balance, I'd sit down, shut your mouth, and listen. And do 20 minutes of expressive writing.

• 46:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, we keep coming back to this theme, right? Of just creating the space to sit and to be with silence and to listen, not to listen for the voice of others scrolling on your favorite social app, or the advice of others from the outside. And this is your invitation over and over, right? It's like, okay, so sure, there may be times where it makes sense to actually get the input from others outside of us who know us and love us and have the expertise to help. But so often, we subjugate our own inner knowing and understanding. And you keep inviting us in this conversation to just create the space. Like, before you want to go out and do something, sit.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  Be.

• 47:21Jonathan Fields?

  Pause, yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:23Jonathan Fields?

  And listen from within, not waiting for somebody from the outside to tell you what to do next.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  There's a line in A Course in Miracles that I absolutely love, and it really is a teaching foundation for me. And it says, "I must have decided wrongly because I am not at peace." So whenever you make a thought about something, a decision about something, if you're not at peace with it, then you have decided wrongly. And so many of us, "I'm gonna get them told, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that." And they run this script in their brain, and they talk to other people. But you're not at peace, baby. So that's not, that's not the right thing for you to do. You must have decided wrongly because you are not at peace. And when you're not at peace with something, that's an invitation to sit down.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  As my daddy would say, "Shut up." You know, today would be, "Be still and listen." No, daddy didn't say that. He said, "Sit down, shut up, listen." So if we would just do that.

• 48:28Jonathan Fields?

  I want to tease out a distinction here that I think is important for us to surface. Because if somebody hears, like, "Sit down, shut up, and listen," there may be somebody who's joining us that says, "Well, part of what I'm dealing with here is, I am currently, or I have been, or I repeatedly find myself in positions of abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse." You're not saying, in those moments, to be complacent. You're not saying, "Sit down, shut up, and listen, and just don't do anything."

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Oh, no.

• 48:59Jonathan Fields?

  I want to make absolutely clear, and I think we understand that, but for anyone who's potentially translating it as that, let's make clear that this is not the message that you're sending, especially for that person.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  Well, before they can get to that message, I want to tease out the deceptive intelligence of the ego that will also have that person say, "Oh, but you don't understand my situation. You don't understand. My situation is different. You don't understand." You know, that's the deceptive intelligence of the ego that's going to give you an excuse to stay in whatever it is. If you're in abuse, if you're in a dangerous situation, it doesn't have to be, you know, great danger, grave danger. It could be danger to your emotional self, your physical self, your spiritual self. Sit down, pause, and listen for what is my next most appropriate step.

• 49:56Speaker 04

  Sometimes, as a woman that lived in domestic violence, it's not that you can just decide, "I'm leaving." You've got to have an exit plan, an exit strategy. You've got to have things in place, you know? The issue here is, what is my next most appropriate step? That's what I'm listening for, my next most appropriate step. And, B, never underestimate the ruthlessness of the ego to give you an excuse to stay in suffering and sorrow and tragedy by causing you to believe that there's no other way. Oh, absolutely, there is.

• 50:37Jonathan Fields?

  I think it brings us around to this idea also that when somebody is at a moment where they're struggling, they are in some way in need of resolution, of healing, of integration, and then they find some set of practices, and/or a path, or a teacher, or... And there tends to be this thing that says, "Oh, I finally got it. Now I just go step one, step two, step three, step four, boom, done."

• 51:04Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:05Jonathan Fields?

  And the human condition doesn't work that way. Like, and this is one of the... I love towards the end of your writing, "You invite people to expect messiness."

• 51:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 51:15Jonathan Fields?

  And I think that's so important to set that expectation.

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. We want to be mindful not to substitute somebody outside. You know, my students, I have students all over the world, people who have studied with me. And one of the things one of my elders taught me was, "A master is not one with many students. A master is one who creates many masters." So for me, a master is, "Come get what I have, and take it out and do something with it. Don't sit up under me." You know, so don't replace, you know, the... Don't use the teacher, or the book, or the practice, or the whatever, like you said, to think it's going to be a narrow... It's not. It's not going to be a narrow path.

• 52:02Speaker 04

  It's not going to be a one-size-fits-all. And when you realize that this thing is no longer feeding you, leave. Leave it. Put it that... You know, I respect teachers that I've had years and years and years ago, and I always knew when it was time for me to move on. You know, I got what I came for, and it's time for me to go. So I want people to be able to do that also. And at this moment, this spiritual hygiene may speak to you. It may be exactly what you need. Don't marry it. You know, when it doesn't fit you anymore, don't try to... Go on to something else. Because, you know, the universe is always spinning and moving.

• 52:48Jonathan Fields?

  I love that. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase "to live a good life," what comes up?

• 52:59Speaker 04

  To live a good life...

• 53:03Speaker 04

  Be clear about, aware of, diligent about the rulers of your internal throne. Always know who is ruling in the throne of your mind, at the altar of your heart, and in the temple of your spirit. To live a good life, make sure the right rulers are in place. Thank you.

• 53:33Jonathan Fields?

  Hey, before you leave, if you loved this episode, you will also love the conversation we had with Kama Bryan about healing trauma and reclaiming your true self. You can find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did, because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor. Share it with just one person. And if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too.

• 54:17Jonathan Fields?

  But just one person even, then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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