Good Inside with Dr. Becky
Hosted by Dr. Becky Kennedy
Original podcast
Dr. Becky talks with a mom about the dilemma of raising kids differently when other people are intimately involved in the raising of your children.
8,353 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.
All right, it's January, it's a new year. It is that time a lot of us think about resolutions. And before we jump in, I want to share a little reframe that I've been thinking about around resolutions. Most of us, definitely me, end the year in December feeling overwhelmed, feeling like there's so many things we wish we did differently, feeling like we didn't get it right. And then we enter January, and we have the hope and the optimism and kind of the blank slate of a new year. But then you know what we do to ourselves? We do resolutions, and we do them in a way that we go right back to feeling the way we did in December: overwhelmed, less than, not enough.
We set goals for ourselves that frankly are unrealistic. Not unrealistic because we're not capable, unrealistic because they're based in some idea of perfection rather than in an idea of reality. So maybe we're going through a tough stage with our kids. "They are being really rude, there's a lot of disrespect, we've been yelling." We say, "I'm not going to yell for the month of January." Well, I don't know about you, but I can't not yell for the month of January. We say, "I'm going to start out every day, spending 30 minutes with my kid without my phone." Well, you know what? It might really help our kid to spend five minutes with them in the morning without our phone twice a week.
I'm not talking about lowering the bar. I'm actually talking about building momentum. When we set what I refer to as manageable moments for ourselves, we're able to keep those moments, we're able to watch ourselves be capable. At the end of the day, we can say, "I did spend those five minutes. I did do exactly what I said. I didn't yell from 8:00 a.m. to 8:10 a.m." And you know what that momentum does? It allows us to continue setting other manageable moments. We start to feel capable and hopeful and optimistic.
Which is the set of feelings we want to feel in January. And honestly, the set of feelings we need to cultivate to have bigger and bigger gains in our lives. And so, please join me this year. Out with resolutions, in with manageable moments. And as you listen to this episode, which is a classic episode about disrespect and rudeness and defiance with Myleek Teal, please think about the one manageable idea you can take to create a new, optimistic, hopeful, manageable moment for yourself.
We'll be back right after this.
Hi, Myleek.
Hello, Dr. Becky. I am ready to talk about one of my favorite topics of all kid time.
Can you name it and frame it for us?
Disrespect. Wow.
I've had a journey, I feel like, with disrespect. I think in the very beginning, I had so many expectations of how I felt my child should treat me. I am putting a roof over your head. I am feeding you. I am clothing you, and I have expectations of you, you know? And the more words they get, the more intense it starts to get. And then now, it's just engaging with other parents, family members, watching my child do what he does, and results in a conversation of like, it's just so disrespectful. I don't remember it being like that back in my day.
Yeah. I know one of the things we often talk about, right? It's just a kid does something, right? So there's a behavior. That's the fact. And then one of the things I often think about is there's so many ways, actually, that we could look at a single moment or behavior. There's so many frames, just like if we have a, actually it's perfect. You have a picture of something. There's infinite, in some ways, picture frames. You could put the picture in. And I think we all know, sometimes you put a different picture frame on the same picture and it looks different. It actually makes you feel something different, even though the picture is in theory the same. And there's a framework of interpreting a child's behavior through the lens of disrespect.
Yes.
And I just want to say as a start, I don't feel any pressure to say whether that's true or not true. Is it respectful? Is it disrespectful? Is it not disrespectful? To me, the thing I often like to think about is just, is it useful?
Hmm.
Is it effective? Based on where a kid is today and where we eventually want them to be, is the framework of disrespect going to get them with my help from point A to point B? Or might it get in the way of getting to point B?
I think the hardest part, and you and I talk about this ad nauseam, it's so hard not to see your child as 25 when they're four or five.
And you just think, oh, my God, if they do this at their job or in their college classroom, you know, what's going to happen? I have to stop this now.
Yes. Yes, that fast forward thought.
And actually, I know you talk about swim classes. And it is interesting, right? When we take our kids' behaviors, the hitting, the I hate you, whatever it is, out of that context. And I think about another way where we could have a fast forward thought, where my kid is five, let's say, and they don't, actually, my five-year-old isn't a great swimmer. He's really not. And if I think about him being 25 and being in, I don't know, some ocean with friends, like if he swims at 25 in an ocean, the way he swims today in a training pool, yeah, he would die.
Yeah.
He would die.
But at the same time. I'm, I don't think coming down harshly on him for swimming. Hey, if you swim that way at age 25, you're gonna drown. You know that? Like, I don't think anyone would say, Becky, you, that is really helpful.
That is really useful. And so, understanding our kids' behavior in their developmental stage, understanding, well, what helps someone get from point A to point B? For swimming or for emotion regulation? And what is my role as the parent or really as the coach in either situation? To get them there is critical.
I'd like to add the black parent caveat because I know that a lot of black parents, we are feeling like we are wanting to save our kids' lives. And so, there's another layer of that where it's just like, I am so worried that if you say this to the wrong person at the wrong time, your life is on the line. And so, that is usually the big thing that I get if I'm out with like my peers or other black families. And it's just like, this is all fine and dandy, but how do you know that you're keeping your kid alive?
And I appreciate you adding that context. So you and I, as we parent our kids, we have different histories, we have different fears, we have different realities. We have very different realities for our fast-forward thoughts. Maybe I'm thinking, oh, I don't want my son to get fired from a job. And maybe you're thinking, I don't want my son to get killed when he's out and about. Right? I mean, those are different.
Completely.
Yeah. We're thinking of both, right? Like, I need you to stay safe and employed.
And so, Mike, you have any examples from your own life? With some challenging, could be interpreted as disrespectful behavior? Or should we just talk about other children?
Yeah, I mean, my son gives me so much content and material just by the hour. You know, we had a situation where we had some friends over, new friends that dad had made, and we are going to walk to the park from our house. And it's a little chilly and I say, it's getting late. We're all gonna put our coats on before we go to the park. My son says if he has to put his coat on, he's not going. And I say, you know, these are new parents and I'm just trying to keep it low. And I said, okay, you know, his dad said, I'll stay in with him if he doesn't want to go. So he goes inside, we start walking and I get a text from dad that says, yeah,
he says he's gonna relax by the fireplace. And so I kind of just say to the family, yeah, my son's not gonna come. And one of the parents said, the fact that he even has a choice, you know? And we started talking and it's just this idea that you don't get a choice. If we have new guests and they're coming, it's disrespectful for you to not come. And so that's one. And then I'll give you another one. That is, you know, my son has said, I'm gonna slap you in your face.
And I mean, that would have gotten me and anybody I know. That would have gotten them in a little bit of trouble. And then just because we're gonna have a third one just at school. I said, dad's gonna pick you up. Dad didn't pick him up. I walk in the class, Becky, you liar. You are a liar. And he screams at me in the class, all the way downstairs, out the door. And I think he told me the next day that someone, an adult who had witnessed it, said they were gonna make him write an apology letter. He's terrified. He goes, I can't even write a word. So it's like in the context of school building, new friends.
My home. I understand because I am consistently in this, working in the community with you and everyone else, but it's, it's not easy.
No.
And, and I, if you would have bet me over achieving my league, would you have a kid that would tell you they would slap you in the face? I would bet every dollar in my savings account, never. And here I am.
And here we are. So for some reason, the example of I'm gonna slap you in your face.
Is the loudest right now, but they're all kind of linked. So let's take that one.
Mm hmm.
Oh, mom, I'm gonna slap you in the face. So. The first thing I think that's just a good exercise. And everyone listening, I'm sure you have a kid who said something similar. Or maybe you're like, that's weird that my kid said those exact words to me this morning. So probably in one bucket or the other. If you're in neither bucket, then I don't know, keep listening. I think it'll still be useful. You will one day have a child who says those things. So I find when I say to myself, I'm picturing that as my son, right? My youngest would definitely say those words. And I just think, you're so disrespectful. How disrespectful? Like, as I say those words, Myli, and you can see me, like, my eyes get, like, glary.
Like, I am looking at my kid with the feeling, with the lens of like, you are an awful person and I basically hate you right now. I don't know. Does that, what about for you? When you think about the lens of disrespect, you're so disrespectful.
Yes, and I feel like there feels like hierarchy and power of like, to me, you are gonna talk to me. The person who does everything, you know?
Does it feel like he doesn't appreciate you?
Yes, yes, it does. I feel so unappreciated. Like, does everything that I do, do you not see it, you know? And I also think when you add this work that I'm doing of like, I've never hit you. I have never hit you. I have never said anything like that to you. Where the hell did you get this from? You're gonna talk to me like this?
You've never hit him. He is therefore, and this is multifaceted as I think about it. He's not as scared of you as he would be if you hit him.
Ah.
Is that, you think that's fair to say?
It is, and I don't know that I even thought about that.
Yeah, and as I say it, it seems like that can almost like be looked at. Okay, so if we don't, let's just say in a multitude of ways, scare our children through hitting them, through, I mean, there's also a lot of verbal, emotional ways we can like terrify our kids. If we are not using that as a prime parenting strategy, our kids are not terrified of us.
Right.
And I'm actually trying to think we could take it out of kids, too. Like, if you have a partner you're not terrified of, you probably feel much more free rein to express a wider range of things.
If you're terrified of your partner, if you thought your partner would hit you, that would really restrict movement.
Right?
Right. And conversation, or what I'm gonna talk about.
Sure.
And I mean, it's like, it feels very unfair, because I know for you, right? It's like, I'm working really hard around cycle breaking in that way. I'm working so hard, and my, so my reward is rudeness.
And I'm gonna slap you, and you're a liar, and I'm not going.
Yep.
Becky, are you saying my reward?
That's what I need to know.
Are those things?
Like, that is messed up.
Your reward should be, hey, you know, Mom, thank you for, you know, working so hard. Thank you for operating from a place of love and boundaries, not from a place of fear. I appreciate you so much.
That's what I, that's what I would like.
Yeah. Understandably. And so before we go further, I mean, it is interesting. I think we're both kind of struck by this at the same time. Like, if you're a parent, especially if you're thinking, I really am the first one
in my lineage.
To not hit my kid, to not spank my kid, to not really operate primarily from a place of fear.
My kid is going to express a wider range of behavior toward me.
That is the hard part. I think when you said that, he's not, he's not terrified. So I think about all the ways that I would behave, or what I might say, unafraid.
And then I'm thinking about this layering. I don't know why, like things like I appreciate my mom or my mom does so much for me or my dad, right, any parent. First of all, it's the same thing with us and our relationships. Even if we have access to those thoughts, which by the way, appreciation and gratitude are so sophisticated. Like you have to develop so much perspective to, to have those, which most like four, five, six year olds haven't even lived long enough. But let's even say they do. Same thing with us, like when we're feeling appreciative of someone in a moment that you're overwhelmed by like a core feeling of anger or frustration. That dysregulated feeling, meaning the feeling that just overtook you, kind of does cover
and block access to all of those kind of higher order level of thinking. Because I know for me, like I really appreciate my husband. He's a wonderful partner. Like, I don't know, when I'm really annoyed at him or I'm really mad about something he did, I usually am not in the moment, even me, and I'm like a real adult. I'm not like, you know what though? He's so great in these ways. And so let me balance out my anger, like my anger takes over me. Is it the same for you?
Absolutely, absolutely.
And so our anger and our frustration, I just think as humans, like when they overtake us, all the other feelings, they're in the backseat of the car. They're not anywhere near the driver's seat. And so I'm thinking about this moment, they say, I'm gonna hit you. You're like, what the heck? And you don't even know how lucky you are, basically, right?
Right, and I said that.
And here's the emotion regulation layer, okay? Because our kids learning how to manage, that's what regulate really means, how to manage anger and frustration, jealousy, disappointment, all those like dark, heavy emotions. It's so important in life. If you're an adult who doesn't know how to manage those feelings, ironically, you are the person who gets fired from your job for saying like something you just shouldn't utter to your boss or yell at your boss.
Because the feelings that you have just explode out of you because you've never learned how to manage them.
But in childhood, our kids have all of the feelings, right? We know they have none of the coping skills. And in the period of the many years we're hopefully helping them build the coping skills, we have to expect many moments where those feelings overpower the very little coping skills they actually have.
Question for you, because I know that someone may wonder this. What about when they say, well, when my kid's with grandma or grandpa or with their dad or with their aunt, they don't do any of these things. It's as if they have more respect for them.
Yeah. I think a couple of things. First of all, I think sometimes when we say our kid has more respect for someone, we actually mean fear of them. Because if we define respect by a more limited range of behavior, which I have a feeling we do, I've never even consciously thought that, that a kid who's quote respectful kind of just means they stay in line behaviorally. Well, the more fearful you are of the person you're with, the more that fear will limit you. Now, fear, though, also means you are not developing any of the coping skills you actually need for life. So that's not great in the long run.
So I think that's one thing I would say is when we say they have more respect for this person, do we really just mean do they have more fear and they have a more limited range of behavior? And then the other thing I think I would add to that is we all express the widest range of kind of feelings with the people we feel safest with. We do. And it's very inconvenient to be that safe adult for your kid because hearing these words, being at that grocery store, it's one of the things I felt most unprepared for. It's just how inconvenient it is to parent young children. It is so inconvenient, so exhausting. They do so many annoying things. But all of those moments, I also believe if you're that safe adult for your kid.
You have the biggest impact on your kid's life. If you're the adult that they're with when they feel, let's say disappointed, jealous, anger, the feelings that are the hardest to manage even for adults.
You're like the coach with the most impact. You're seeing the most in practice.
I think this lens of seeing kids, quote, "bad behavior," we have these choices almost. Like, do we see it as disrespect of me? Or do I see it as kind of my kid having a hard time? And them kind of showing me the skills they need to build for the rest of their life?
Now, of course, you know, I have another, another one.
Challenge.
So I have, yeah. So someone, as I was talking about this topic, someone brought up the idea that their daughter said to them, "I want a new mom." And she said that that felt disrespectful. And so, I don't know, that's not necessarily bad behavior, but I know that it definitely hurts your feelings. And when I think about feeling appreciated, probably you want a new mom. You know? So what might you say to that mom who's just like, you know, she says she wants a new mom. I feel disrespected.
So in a way, that doesn't seem that dissimilar to me from "I'm gonna hit you in the face."
Really?
It really doesn't.
Okay.
Okay? And in both of those examples, I feel like we take our kids' words so literally.
And honestly, Miley, great. I'm sure you and I have arguments with our partners around this too. When we're like, wait, I didn't actually mean, why did you take that at face value? I didn't mean that.
So us two, we say things when we're overwhelmed with feelings. Our words are not the best kind of manifestation of what our needs are.
They're usually not. So if I think... I want a new mom. It can mean a lot of things. And I think one of the things, if we really want to help our kids, what we have to kind of learn to do, and it takes a ton of practice and so hard, is translate. What might my kid mean? If I said to my partner, "I want a new husband," you go with me, Maylee, what do you think I'm saying?
You may not be feeling seen. Absolutely, you're frustrated.
I don't know. Like, I'm saying this and I'm showing you something and you are just not seeing me or hearing me clearly.
Hundred percent. And escalations of words, to me, the more desperate the word, the more desperate your plea is to be taken seriously.
Although it can usually evoke the opposite, the more desperate a kid's words, the more a parent is prone, understandably, to respond with invalidation. That's such a ridiculous thing to say. "You want a new mom, I do everything for you." Which only then makes a kid kind of think unconsciously, "Well, I guess I have to escalate this further because even that didn't get seen."
So, first of all, I think like self-soothing is really important as a parent because if we look to our kids to feel worthy and respected as people, we're gonna lose. And I often think, "I like care way too much about my self-worth. It's way too important to put in the hands of my five-year-old." I'm not gonna give that to him. He's five. Like, I know what I know about the type of mother I am. I know what I know about the type of cycle breaker I am. And if I don't, then I deserve to give that to myself. I don't want to wait for my four-year-old to acknowledge that to me.
And then, if we're able to do that, this translation, almost always,
We can translate a kid's words too. Like, I feel awful. Can you see that?
Mmm.
Or, and I think in your situation, I want to feel powerful.
I want to feel powerful. I need to feel powerful. Like, I'm gonna hit you. I'm not gonna ever say I love you again. I'm never gonna clean up. You're a liar.
Right? I think all times when kids are saying, I feel so disempowered. And I need to feel powerful and important.
No, kids don't say that. Frankly, adults don't actually often say that either. Instead, they fight back hard too.
But not only do I think it's more accurate, I guess, again, the thing I'm often led by is I just, I think it's more effective to work on seeing our kids' tough moments through that lens. Because let's walk through this. Your son, my league says to you, I'm gonna hit you.
And let's walk through what happens when we see it only through the lens of, this is so disrespectful. Like, what would someone do next?
From that lens?
Oh, I'm going, I'm going to slap you in your face, is what he said. It's like, oh, you're gonna slap me in my face? You know? And then now, I'm probably thinking of what I want to do to him. Or now that he has said this to me, I want to say something to hurt his feelings, you know? If I'm not gonna hit him, or I'll show you. When I was coming up, if I had ever said that, I probably would've got slapped first. To like, oh, you think you're gonna slap me?
So now we're in this mindset. It's me against you. You're awful. I have to like, prove my power.
To you. And like, we are really against each other. You're gonna slap me in my face? Right? Like you said, you feel like punishing them.
I need to punish you. Okay. So.
Then what? Something has led to a kid saying those words.
And I think the hardest part as a parent is that it's like, for me, it felt like it was out of nowhere. Like, we are having a good day and you just, out of nowhere, decide you're gonna slap me in my face. It wasn't like, oh, I told you, we have to go somewhere. And I think that's the hard part when it comes to parenting, is that we want for one and one to equal two, but sometimes one part is missing and now we're here and I don't even know what to say. Um, like, how did we get here?
Which I feel like makes it harder because it's like, this isn't even a home with drama. We don't even do that. But yet you still
feel, and I don't know, this, I know this isn't, but I, it feels like violence. What are you doing? This isn't a violent home. We don't hit, we don't scream, but here you are.
And look, he, he saw the impact it had, right? Probably. Which it would to me too. And look, our kids all, they all have these darker impulses. As humans, we're animals. We're curious, at least, about how impactful I am. Could I hurt someone with my body? Could I hurt someone with my words? It's why kids play around with words, especially when they make parents upset. Even something silly like poop, poop, poop. Like, it's amazing for a three-year-old to be like, wow, all I have to do is say a word and my, my parents like unravel? Like, that's actually just like interesting. Like, they're like, I guess I'm more powerful than I thought it was, right? So, playing around with power is natural, is normal. And I would argue, it's something I'd want my kid to kind of quote, "play around with"
and figure out in their childhood, rather than have all of that at bay, only act up for the first time when my kid's 18, out of my house, and they have a much bigger body, don't have any of the coping skills to manage those urges, but have as many urges as anyone else. Like, that's scary.
I think a lot of parents think that by the time their kid turns 18, they are going to have this magical maturity that then it's like, oh, save all of this stuff because when you're 18, you're gonna know how to handle it. But you're not, you don't get to practice with me because you must respect me. Why should we not wait until our kids are 18 to start letting this happen?
Yeah. So, look, I'm a firm believer it's never too late. Like, if you're listening, you're like, I have an 18-year-old. I do not predict doomsday for you. Like, our body is always able to learn and rewire. And we know the body wires early. And what does that mean? We learn how to interact with the world and how to interact with our own feelings and urges during our earliest years. We literally are forming the circuitry that will then activate at 18. So by 18, you don't have a clean slate. You have the wiring that you developed in the context of your family home. And now that's the thing that will play out over and over.
So let's go back to this, "I'm gonna slap you," because I think this is really interesting, right? So first of all, when kids say something like, "I'm gonna slap you," or "I'm gonna drown you," or "I'm gonna push you out the window." Okay, like, kids say all these things, right? So one of the first things that I think is powerful to say back to them is, "I would never let you do that." And I'm gonna explain more. "I'm gonna push you out the window. I would never let you do that, sweetie, because my job is to keep you safe. And actually, I know you're a really good kid, and you're having a hard time, so I would never let you hurt me in that way." And that might seem, I get it. It's like, "Oh, really? Like, I can't just say, 'Go to your room,' you know? Because that's ridiculous thing to say."
Here's why. Because I promise, like, I am the least soft, like, even like the term gentle parenting, I hate. Like, please don't use that term with me. Gentle's so far down the list of adjectives I would use to describe myself. Um, okay. Is, our kids have an urge. An urge is like a want to do something, an urge to hit, an urge to hurt someone with your words, an urge to throw something, an urge to slap someone in the face. When our kids are older, they don't not have urges. Urges live in our body. They are human, they're just natural.
The best we get is developing a circuit where our urge to hit someone is wired next to a boundary that kind of stops that urge from acting out and kind of can channel the urge maybe in a different way. Now, we want over time for our kids to have the urge to hit and not hit. Of course, that's the goal.
Right. We don't want to get rid of those urges because I think sometimes we feel like we do.
Well, we can't, right? It's just like we can't beat our body. It's like asking an animal to like, can you just not want to fight back when you think someone is attacking your cub? Like, it's just like we are living in, you know, based on animal defense states, the urge to attack, protect ourselves in that way. This is evolution.
Right? And so kids say these things when they feel emotionally under attack. They do. Now, if we want our kids to learn how to stop their urges, here's actually how it works. They have an urge in their body. And before they can stop that urge from being acted on, they have to pair our boundary next to their urge. Because then what their body learns is, I am able to have an urge. And watch, it didn't get acted out. And then when we pair our boundary next to their urge over time, that's literally how a kid develops their own boundary.
Next to their urge. Our reactions to our kids' big feelings become their reactions to their big feelings. So, this is- Not a way of saying, I would never say to my kid who says, "I'm gonna slap you in the face. Oh, sweetie, feel your feelings. You're so amazing. Slap away." Of course not. But when I say, "Whoa, I would never let you do that." "You're a good kid. You're having a hard time. You seem to be having energy in your hands. You know what? Let's go bang on the floor."
What my kid is learning is I have this feeling of wanting to do something powerful and harmful. I'm watching myself not do it. And now I'm developing something else I could do in its place.
There is nothing more helpful to an, I don't know, a 30-year-old than saying, "I'm gonna go in my boss's office and I'm gonna really tell them off." Ooh, I'm gonna not do that.
I'm gonna pause. I'm a good person, having a hard time.
I'm gonna instead, maybe not bang on the floor, maybe write this down.
I'm gonna go outside and scream. I'm gonna go call my friend. That's what it ladders up to.
I think the thing that is sticking with me that you said that is vibrating for me is our reaction to our kids' big feelings becomes their reaction. And I think, you said something like that, but that's the thing that I think is hardest for us to remember in those moments of like, this is an opportunity for me to show them how to do this versus responding to exactly what they're saying. I think, I've talked to you about this, about those times when my son, my son actually did slap me in the face before. And I took a breath and I, I looked at him in the rearview. He's still crying. I know he's feeling shame.
He has, he punched me hard. And I said, "There is nothing you could ever do to make me stop loving you."
"You're a good kid and you're having a hard time." And you could just see, I felt like I could see just computing in his eyes, like, "I'm, I'm a good person." Like, I could see it. And I think just remembering in those moments, you know, that like I'm getting a chance to show them how things should go.
And could go.
Because let's go down the opposite road. Cause I think I see it too. It's like, okay, so kids have, I'm gonna slap you, or they do. And I, you know, I send them to their room and I say, you think about what you did and no iPad for a week and maybe, you know, give them the silent treatment for a couple of days. And I get it, but you're like, but, but that might also help them have kind of quote, good behavior. But here's what happens when they get older. They're not going to be scared of their boss, the way they're scared of you. The reason they're scared of you is because they need you at age five to survive. They literally don't get food, shelter, water, love without you. They literally need those things. So they're locked into a relationship with you. That won't even happen again after 18 because they're more physically capable of survival.
So the fear that might temporarily, maybe even block that behavior, even though for some kid it doesn't. It won't even be as strong of a blocker later on. So then that's just all the rage released. That's not good. But more so, I think a principle I think about of emotion regulation is we can never learn to manage feelings and urges. That we don't allow ourselves to have. If you don't think it's okay to have a feeling or an urge in your body. Then you have to get that feeling and urge out of your body. Well, bad behavior is literally just a feeling or an urge coming out of your body.
It is exploding out. It's like, get out of me. I don't have the capability of managing it in here. So it's going to explode out of me. So now you have a 30 year old who's mad at their boss. They have never learned to manage anger. Maybe they've encoded their anger next to punishment, next to shame, and next to the idea of I'm a horrible person. I hate feeling this way because I feel so out of control. I don't know what to do. Those are literally the conditions. For anger, volcano explosions. If you want to set your kid up to explode at their boss, then sending them away.
And adding shame and blame to their worst moments is probably the best way to do that, but that's not usually a parent's goal.
Yeah, I, small detour, the silent treatment, because I, I experienced the silent treatment my entire life, and I know parents who use it and find it to be more effective, or, well, I'm not hitting them, and I'm not putting them in their room, but I'm not talking to them for a couple of days, and I just would like for you to tell us why that's not a good idea.
Yeah, you know, and again, I'm empathizing first with all the parents. Like, I think the thing I haven't said yet in this conversation, there's no job that's more important and more challenging and more ongoing than parenting. It's not even 18 years, we know that, but let's even say it was.
Okay, let's say we're done at 18, which we're not. 18 years, nonstop, because we know the job is overnight, okay? 18 years, nonstop, like hardest, most ongoing, most important job in the world, that we are given no training, no education, no support. That is messed up. The system is stacked against us. So, any parent who's listening and thinking, "Oh, maybe I haven't done a good job," or "I'm not doing what they say," or "What's wrong with the silent treatment? At least I'm not hitting my kid," like, I know Myleek and I both have just tremendous empathy.
Complete, yes.
Right? So, I just, I just want to, want to state that, okay? So, what's the issue with this, with the silent treatment? You know, the silent treatment truly is psychological abandonment. Maybe it's not physical abandonment, so most people I know aren't saying, "Well, my kid has really acted out, so I'm putting them in a forest and driving them, driving away for, you know, three days." But, physical abandonment, psychological abandonment, they're really tied together for kids, because kids depend on attachment with caregivers to survive. They're helpless.
You know, in the animal kingdom, humans, like, we remain helpless for so many more years than any other species. So kids know in their bones, I need my parent, I need their attachment, I need their proximity, I literally need their love and connection to survive and thrive. So the silent treatment, it really leaves a child feeling deserted, usually in the very moments that they are actually in desperate need of a caregiver. So they're in need of closeness. Instead, they feel ignored and alone.
And so what does a child do in that moment? Well, the only thing they can really do is fill themselves with self-blame. And this is one of my favorite quotes of all time. Fairburn wrote, right? "It is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than live in a world ruled by the devil." So what a child does at a young age is they preserve the goodness of their parents and take in all the badness. "I am so bad. Something is wrong with me. I am unlovable. I make bad things happen." Because they need to internalize fault to believe that their parents and really the world around them is safe
and good. And so what does that do more long-term? Well, it wires, kind of circuits in our body that say, "I am only lovable when I please others. When I struggle, I cannot need other people. My vulnerability will be met with rejection." And if we think about how those play out in adulthood, none of that is adaptive in adulthood. It's not, we know when we struggle, we need others. We know, so many of us are working away from all those people-pleasing tendencies and saying, "Wait, I'm allowed to want things and need things and ask for things even if other people are upset? I'm allowed to be vulnerable? That's how I'm close with people. That's how people actually get to know me." But the silent treatment
actually wires kind of the opposite of all of those life lessons.
I think that's what's so extraordinary about, I don't know, being in the community with Good Inside, is that the things that we have learned Like that we should be doing in these moments. If we knew like the result, you know, it's like the result of like, what are some of the results of some of the things I've been taught to do? Might I do something different? And that is why I just wanted to ask that question. Like parenting is hard. It is overnight. It is decades long. But you know, I just think about a person who experienced the silent treatment, like I said, all of my life. And it's just, it's tough. You know, and I, and you, you said this and it's just like, okay, in those hard moments, it's hard to remember that in those harder moments, that's when they really are needing
us because it doesn't seem like it. They're calling us liars and saying they're gonna hit us. And it's just remembering they actually need us in those moments.
They're out of control. It's why they need a boundary. So when our kid is saying, I hate you, you're the worst mom, I need a different mom. What, again, like you don't say to, oh, let's like have a tea party together. Like, no, it's like such a, you know, awful match. But I may say, you know, I'm gonna carry you into a different room. I'm not gonna let you say these words in front of our whole, you know, extended family. Not because I'm embarrassed, but actually because like, you're just gonna feed off that out of control energy. Like, this isn't a good look for you.
So I'm going to help you.
Big thing that I learned is that, that I have like in bold in my notes, I think you helped me better clarify what boundaries mean with my kids. He said, boundaries don't require our children to do anything. And sometimes when I throw that out, people are like, what? It's like, yeah, no, they don't require my kids to do anything. It's what I'm going to do. I am not going to let you slap me. I am going to move this out of your way. I'm gonna move this. I'm not going to let you hit me.
You know?
I'm not going to let you talk to me like that.
Exactly, exactly. And then, again, even though it goes counter to how so many of us were raised, there is probably a safer way to express the urge or the feeling that they're currently expressing in not the best way. So kids say, I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna drown you, right? Like to me, I hear a five year old who's saying, I wanna feel powerful. I wanna know I have impact in the world. So maybe later in the day, I don't know, I'll make sure to say things like,
Uh, what do you want for a snack? Do you want pretzels or, you know, uh, chips? Please don't say chips. Just don't. Oh, chips. Ah. Okay, you say chips. I guess I have to get chips from the drawer, right? I'm just giving my kid here and there ways to feel more powerful.
Ah, yes.
More impactful, maybe in pretend play.
I might say, hey, oh, you're the dragon. Oh, dragons are scary. I'm scared of the dragon. You're so big. Oh, you're so big. And then maybe I say to him, I said, what should I do now? What should the, oh, oh, oh, the dragon is gonna get even scarier. Should I look scared? Oh, I should look scared, okay? So we're kind of both in on it. Okay, I'm so scared. And I'm allowing my kid, which kids need to do, more opportunities to play around with their power, with their impact, which means actually they're less likely to need to express it when I'm picking them up from the classroom.
Why do kids need to feel powerful, Dr. Becky? Why, why do they need this? Because I could see someone saying, I don't really want that, you know? Or I don't think that's what I want. Why do, why do they need to?
Our kids need kind of periods of feeling powerful, meaning feeling in touch with who they are, feeling like their own independent person. Feeling powerful is very linked with having self-worth. I'm not talking about kind of toxic power, but if we want our kids to become adults who feel like they have a sense of self, who feel like they can speak up for themselves, who feel like they can set boundaries, who feel like they know what they want and they can express what they want, that comes from feeling powerful. And we can't raise kids from a place of subservience and then expect them to have assertiveness and self-worth 18 years later after we've wired them the other way. So that is why.
That, I'm like, my drop, boom. That's because it's, I know people, I don't, I don't know that I want my kid to feel powerful. And it's like, but I, I do. I do today and tomorrow. You know, it's like, I don't want them to wait until they're 21 or 18 to, to quote unquote, find their power, step into their power. It's like, it starts, it's now.
That's exactly right.
Yes. So I appreciate those ways that we were able to do that.
Yes. Any last thoughts or kind of caveats or kind of, you know, again, I'm I think we're both aware of this when we talk. We come from such different families. We have such different lived realities in America.
I've, you know, come into this conversation with a lot of privilege around my race and the way I'm viewed and the lack of fear I have for my kids. And so I'm wondering even if there's anything on your mind now that you're like, you know what? Let's add a little asterisk, Becky, for some of the things you said that, you know, even for you, you're like, yeah, that doesn't apply to me as much.
Yeah. You know, I think when we, we kick this off, this idea of like, keeping our kids safe, like you said something during this podcast, you know, like my job is to keep you safe. And sometimes I know that when we are thinking about keeping our kids safe, it's just, there's that added layer. And what if we're not there? And I need for you to be respectful and just, you know, there is this policing of black kids with like, respect. Like even when we're out at the birthday party yesterday, I just see this, I see a black dad and I know why he's doing this. It's like forcing manners. I need you to say, excuse me, you know? And, and I grew up that way. And so I know, you know, if there, if there are parents of color listening, there is
that asterisk. But I think something that's so important that you have said that has really helped me on my parenting journey is that I, I want my kids to be powerful and exercising their power. And there is a way that they can do both and in a way that I can keep them safe and that my home should be a place where they get to practice and they feel safe. And my, my home cannot mirror the world. Like I know you are going to experience people who will treat you differently because of the way you look. And I don't want to duplicate that at home so that you get practice. And I think that's just the big thing that I want for parents to know and to hear from
me, that you can do both of these things, you know? In your home, your home can be safe. Your kids can practice with you and be safe in the world.
Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast. You could also write me at [email protected]. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Knapp, and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.
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