356. Georgia, Russia, and the fight for democracy - An interview with the President of Georgia

Will Georgia’s President accept the inauguration of her successor on the 29th of December? If she does, will Georgia be handed over to Russia? Is there a way back to Europe for the country? In this live interview, Rory and Alastair speak with Salome Zourabichvili to ask all of this and more. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy, a green electricity supplier powering homes across England, Scotland & Wales. Use referral code POLITICS after signing up for your chance to win a TRIP merch bundle. Learn more at GetFuse.com/Politics ⚡ Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ nordvpn.com/restispolitics It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Assistant Producer: India Dunkley Video Editor: Josh Smith Social Producer: Jess Kidson Producers: Nicole Maslen, Fiona Douglas Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:05Speaker 02

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• 1:35Speaker 03

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• 1:58Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to The Rest is Politics with me Rory Stewart.

• 2:01Alastair Campbell?

  And me Alastair Campbell. And we've just done something which I don't think we've done before, which is a live interview with a very, very interesting woman, the president of Georgia, Salomi Zurepichvili. She's interesting for lots of reasons. A French-born, French-raised woman of Georgian heritage who became a diplomat, ended up as ambassador to Georgia, then renounced her French citizenship and became a Georgian politician, rose to be president, but right now at the centre of a real battle for the future of Georgia. Whether to go down a European path as she wants, or down a pro-Putin Russian path as Putin tries to recreate the Soviet

• 2:44Alastair Campbell?

  Empire with Georgia as part of it. So Rory, big figure, big moment in her life.

• 2:50Rory Stewart?

  Big figure, big moment. And just to frame it, we are talking to her live, at a moment where there have been thousands of demonstrators out on the streets of Tbilisi. You will see them, many of them in traditional, almost medieval Georgian crusader costumes. You can see people doing an amazing swaying dance, demonstrating for Europe and for the election to be rerun. Because the elections that were held produced a staggering result, which was totally out of keeping with the exit polls, and which strongly implies that the Georgian Dream Party stole that election, and this has been confirmed by international election observers. So the demand is for new elections to be held, but we're interviewing

• 3:34Rory Stewart?

  her just on the cusp, where she's only got a few days left in office before the Georgian Dream, which is this pro-Putin party, as she says, taking the country on the path to being a new Belarus. Is about to try to topple her and potentially put her in jail. So an extraordinary moment to be interviewing her.

• 3:52Alastair Campbell?

  Because what's happened, just so people get the context, she was the last directly elected president. They then changed the system so that the new parliament, which she doesn't accept, has voted for a former, bizarrely, a former Manchester City footballer called Mikel Cavalcaville. And he's due to be sworn in in two days' time, on December 29. So Georgia really is at a crossroads. It's a fascinating time to be talking to. I want to apologize for a few sound issues at the start. It's a fascinating chat. I hope you enjoy it.

• 4:31Alastair Campbell?

  Madam President, I want to ask you first of all, what are you actually going to do on Sunday? How are you going to handle events when the new alleged president, the guy that Putin wants in there, is supposed to take over?

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Well, that is the one question I will not answer.

• 4:49Alastair Campbell?

  Is that for tactical reasons?

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Because the plans for Sunday have to be known, especially by the ruling party on Sunday, not before. So the most important to know about Sunday is that for me, because of these illegitimate elections and because of the unconstitutional way in which the parliament was convened twice, it violated the constitution in the convening of the parliament. These elections and hence the inauguration of the president is not valid. So I remain president and I continue to do my job.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  That's what everybody has to know. Now, the details of that will be known on Sunday.

• 5:42Rory Stewart?

  And Madame Présidente, just for international listeners, American, British, international listeners, would you just tell us a little bit about your earlier life before we get back into the politics of Georgia, just to introduce yourself as a person?

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Certainly. I think that what will be very clear for everyone is when they know that my family left Georgia. My parents were small at that time, but my family left Georgia in 1921, when Georgia was occupied by the Russian forces that then became the Soviet forces, by the 11th Russian Army, and that's why they had to leave and go to France, where I was born a few years, many years later. And so all my life I was living with this idea that Georgia was going to be independent.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  It was a firm belief of my parents and of all the people that I was raised with around me. So I was speaking Georgian in the family because we had to keep the language, the culture and the identity for the day when we would go back to Georgia, and that happened. And it happened when I went back to Georgia, becoming the first French ambassador to Georgia, and then the Foreign Affairs Minister in a very short time. So that's two lives.

• 7:11Alastair Campbell?

  I first became aware of you because I saw you speaking in a French television interview, and I thought, my God, this woman speaks amazing French.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  What a best French.

• 7:23Alastair Campbell?

  So how did a French, a woman who was born and raised and educated in France and became a French diplomat, what was the path that led to you becoming a Georgian citizen and ultimately a president of Georgia?

• 7:37Speaker 04

  Well, that's what I was saying, that I was basically raised in two different cultures. The one that was formed by my family and the community of the Georgians in the immigration in Paris. That was very tight and where we learned everything about the history, culture, language, where singing and dancing Georgian. So the traditions were kept and what was kept even more was this idea that this country was a country that had been fighting for centuries for its independence, had survived these centuries among many empires that dominated Georgia.

• 8:18Speaker 04

  But that fight was not finished and would not be finished until Georgia recovered its independence from the Soviet Russia. And that is what happened. And when it happened and as soon as it happened and before it happened, in a way, I went to the diplomatic career in France because I was convinced that was the day when Georgia would be independent, what this small country would need would be somebody qualified in the foreign policy, in diplomacy for a small independent country. And that's what happened, which is maybe a coincidence or not.

• 9:00Rory Stewart?

  And Madame Prisnol, the story of Georgia after it, the Soviet Union collapsed and Georgia achieved its independence, was followed by a period of great optimism. During the 90s, early 2000s, people really saw Georgia as being a country like one of the Baltic States, like Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia, that was on a very, very positive path towards economic growth, democracy, integration with the West. What was that moment like and what then happened?

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, a lot of hope. One has to also see that this fight for democracy and independence did not start in the 19s, at the time of the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but was there during all the Soviet period and was there during the Russian Empire, when Georgia practically was insurrection after insurrection, small rebellion, big rebellion.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  In which, at that time, it was the aristocrats that was leading this fight. But then it continued under the Soviet, despite the repressions. The church was at the forefront of this fight, but also the intellectuals. And gradually, the Soviet regime managed to really decimate the intellectual elite and the aristocratic elite of Georgia. But very soon, as soon as the Soviet Union started crumbling in the sixties or seventies,

• 10:35Speaker 04

  emerged in Georgia, even a bit before the Baltic States, a new dissenting society, new intellectuals, and a fight for this independence that was very strong and that really encompassed a large part of the society. And I would say that what followed was, through different regimes, lots of new... Chevchenko started talking about NATO and Europe and about the gas pipeline.

• 11:09Rory Stewart?

  I'm going to interrupt for a second. So Chevchenko, again for international listeners, was the famous Soviet foreign minister who went on to become the president of independent Georgia. Sorry, back to you.

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Who had been the leader of Soviet Georgia for many years and not a very liked leader when he was the leader of the Communist Party. But then he had this change of, and became the leader of independent Georgia and the one that had some sense of geopolitics of that time and knew where would be the partners of the next decade for Georgia. Then came Saakashvili, who had this...

• 11:50Speaker 04

  New sense, but we had also the Gamsakhudia leadership before Chevalnade. And then Saakashvili, who had the new sense of reforms that were necessary for the state, which Chevalnade did not carry on, because he was after all a Soviet-raised person. So he could see the geopolitics, he couldn't see how you build a democratic state, which Saakashvili tried to do for at least half of his regime. But then the one party, the power, took over and he had his own deviation towards autocracy.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  And then came this new regime that started with really democratic and going towards Europe and putting in the constitution that the European and Euro-Atlantic integration was a duty of all the Georgian institutions. So very much the very right path that was supported by the very large majority of Georgia. But then again, after a while, we see the deviation towards autocracy, towards not giving away some of the power. But more than that, and that is what is really concerning, is that in the last two, three

• 13:11Speaker 04

  years, we have seen this Russian deviation of the powers that had never existed before. Even Chevalnade did not try to accommodate the Russians.

• 13:23Alastair Campbell?

  Can I, can I?

• 13:24Speaker 04

  That Georgian dream is accommodating.

• 13:26Alastair Campbell?

  Can I jump in and ask you in relation to the Georgian, the Georgian dream? So you were at some point supported by them. You've since very much fallen out with them. But just tell our listeners and viewers something about the role of Bishina Ivanishvili. This is this billionaire who, you know, we keep reading essentially controls Georgian dream. But just explain to us how significant he is in this story that you're living through at the moment.

• 13:54Speaker 04

  Well, apparently, apparently, he is very, he is central to everything. He tried to hide for a long time behind the non-formal role. He was prime minister, then he left, he said, "I'm going out of politics." And then we refused to meet with everyone, including the president, because he was supposed not to be in politics. But he was very clearly the one that was dictating the decisions of the young group of leaders that were in Georgian Dream. It is important to know that the Georgian Dream, which supported me and which was elected with a very vast majority

• 14:36Speaker 04

  in 2012, was made of people that were really pro-Europeans, really pro-democratic, started democratic reforms, but then left. The Georgian Dream of today, it's not only a president that has left. I was never in the ranks, I was not a party member or anything of that kind. But many people from the party, from the parliament, that were the original Georgian Dream, have left disappointed, first by the autocratic turn, and then very radically by this Russian turn of Georgian Dream, which seems today, to answer your initial question,

• 15:16Speaker 04

  completely under the control of only one person, which is Mr Ivanishvili. Nobody else decides anything today.

• 15:25Rory Stewart?

  And, Madam President, just again, for international listeners, remind people why Georgia matters absolutely for the Georgian people, but also for the wider region and for the world. Why this is a key strategic area.

• 15:41Speaker 04

  Over these thirty years, Georgia has been really the place and the stronghold of our Western partners, be they European. British had interest in Georgia for much longer than that, during the time of the first Georgian independence in the 1918 to 1921, where even British troops were present in Georgia. If they had not left, that's a question that I always want to go back to one day, when I have time. If they had not left, the history of Georgia would have been probably very different. But they have left.

• 16:21Speaker 04

  And so this region has always been a strategic point, a stronghold. And Russians, the Russian Empire and the Russian Empire's generals were always saying, "Who holds Tchelisi holds the Caucasus?" And we all know now that the Caucasus today is the place which connects Europe to Central Asia, to very important resources. Even more so since Russia has been heavily sanctioned and that many of the routes are not going through Russia any longer, that means that it gives even more importance to the Caucasus.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  And many of the infrastructure, big projects of the European Union, of the Western partners goes through the Black Sea, and the fate of the Black Sea is a very important part also. Armenia has been looking, now again, it was a case and then no longer, but it's been looking towards Europe, has been taking very brave decisions since the war with Azerbaijan, and is really turning to Europe. But the turn to Europe of Armenia without Georgia cannot happen. And that's why it becomes really a wide picture, in which it's not a surprise that Russia

• 17:44Speaker 04

  is testing its new hybrid strategy on Georgia, on Romania, on Moldova.

• 17:53Speaker 04

  These are the countries that are the Black Sea coast beyond Ukraine. In Ukraine, Russia, and do not make any mistake, Russia has not succeeded into winning this war and into controlling Ukraine and its Black Sea coast. That was probably one of the important parts, especially since Crimea. So the Black Sea is very important for Russian strategy. And suddenly Russia has come to this idea that military intervention is something for it very costly, which it cannot manage very well. And it has not managed very well. It now needs Koreans, North Koreans, to help it out.

• 18:36Speaker 04

  And it has not managed very well in Syria. So the military aspect of Russia's strategy is a bit shaky these days. Mr. Putin is not so secure, but he's trying a new strategy, which is through elections, to overcome these democratic countries. Because democracy is democracy, so you have elections and you... European countries do not dare to say that the elections were stolen.

• 19:06Alastair Campbell?

  You have...

• 19:08Speaker 04

  ...the quality to say it.

• 19:10Alastair Campbell?

  Right behind you there, you have the Georgian flag and you also have the European flag. And when we watch the demonstrations of the people who are out calling for new elections, often they're waving European flag. Is this very much now a battle between Russia wanting Georgia and the Georgian people wanting the European Union? And secondly, secondary to that, how do you feel about what Rory and I both talked on the podcast? We sense a lack of support from European Union leaders. I mean, Orban is the only one who has been to Georgia since the election. And I just wonder how you feel about that, whether you feel you are getting the support that you need from the European Union?

• 19:52Speaker 04

  First of all, yes, it's a battle between Russia and Europe. That was the case for the elections. That's why the Russian input in those elections through... It was very well planned long in advance. And the Russian law that we didn't understand why it was reintroduced after having been withdrawn, which made a lot of protests also at the time.

• 20:13Alastair Campbell?

  This is the Foreign Agents Bill?

• 20:16Speaker 04

  Foreign Agents Bill was part of the pre-election planning. It affected the non-governmental organizations that work there, many things. So that would be a long story too. But it was an election. It was in fact, and I said that before the election, it was a referendum between Russia and Europe. And hence, the determination with which this pro-Russian government and with the help of Russians, including directly Russian propagandists that were in Tigray at that time, were so adamant to win those elections against all odds. And after that, it continued with a decision by the Prime Minister

• 21:00Speaker 04

  to declare that he was going to cut short the discussions with the European Union and basically tell us that we were turning towards friendly Russia, who applauded, Mr. Putin and all his allies applauded these decisions of the Georgian leaders, ruling party.

• 21:19Alastair Campbell?

  And can I just jump in there? So the Prime Minister, Mr. Kovahidze, so he's been elected. You think the elections are illegitimate. But who does he answer to? Is he answerable to Ivanishvili? Is he answerable to Putin? Who's controlling him?

• 21:35Speaker 04

  He's answerable to Ivanishvili. What is the direct link with Putin? Whether they receive instructions? Whether they just apply in advance the instructions? When you want to be complacent to a strong neighbor? What is the exact, how to say, affiliation between those? It's very difficult to know and that we won't know now. What we can look is the objective picture. The objective picture is that Mr. Kovahidze... De facto Prime Minister goes in Iran for the funeral of a terrorist.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  That he goes and his government people go to every other day to Hungary. And they feel very close with Hungarians. They also go to China. And they have given some of the very important strategic, or at least it's in the process and some are signed, some are not. And we don't know exactly because it's not very transparent. But the main strategic objects in Georgia, the port of Anaklia and the second airport are under discussions with the Chinese, who are already very central on the infrastructure projects in central Georgia, the highway.

• 23:00Speaker 04

  So their affiliations are very clear. So what happens is that Georgia is protesting at the same time and concurrently, the elections, the stolen elections and the stolen decision by the Mr. Kovachidze to turn towards Russia. We do not want to become Belarus. And that's why people are out on the streets. If it were only a question of one government that is winning over another one and the elections are not very clear and there is some fraud, that would be very different. It's not a political question. It's really an existential one.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  And that's how the people that live on the streets really since one month consider that to be.

• 23:48Rory Stewart?

  And Madame Prisino, just to follow up on Alice's question.

• 23:53Rory Stewart?

  What more could the international community, Europe, the United Kingdom, the United States, do to support this fight, which is basically a fight between Putinism and Belarus on the one side? And a more western European patrol.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  I'm very glad that you asked the question. I think it's time for our democratic partners, whether they are European, British or American, to tackle this new reality, which is that Russia is trying to win over democratic countries that are linked to or part of the European Union or linked to European Unions through candidate status or other. They're trying to win them over through elections. That has happened in Romania. It was at the last moment overturned because they still have a constitutional court, which we don't have anymore. We don't have any institution left beyond that of the president.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  They are all in the hands of the ruling party, but completely in the hands. It's not just an overall control or just a chair control. It's completely in the hands. So that's the issue that is now set for the democratic countries, partners. They have to decide whether they will be always so cautious in declaring that elections have not been won, that they are not legitimate. If they are going to continue to use observing missions that are very important and the OACOD report that came out after the European Council, why?

• 25:36Speaker 04

  But it's very clear, except that it doesn't give a political conclusion. The IRI, the Republican Institute's report is even clearer, but they don't have either to make a political conclusion. The political conclusion is to be made by the governments. And for some reason, they have not yet come to the decision that this war, they have to look at it as a war, not as being overall too cautious about what they declare as legitimate, what they declare as illegitimate. Are you disappointed?

• 26:12Alastair Campbell?

  That none of the major European leaders have visited Tbilisi and expressed support for you and the people who are protesting with you.

• 26:22Speaker 04

  I'm not disappointed because I know them from inside. I've been part of the French diplomatic service for almost forty years or thirty-five, so I know exactly how it works. And that's why I'm saying that it's a major, I think, reflection, thinking over how they deal with recognition of elections, not only in Georgia. That will affect tomorrow, European countries, as I said, it could have affected Romania and other countries that are going to have elections. If Russia finds out that its strategy in Georgia is successful, I can promise you that

• 27:04Speaker 04

  they will start and even make it more sophisticated for other countries in the European Union.

• 27:14Alastair Campbell?

  You said it was a war, and yet what it feels like is that if on Sunday, let's say on Sunday, whatever happens that actually, let's say you do get arrested, let's say you do get thrown in prison, and let's say that this footballer, this hard-right, pro-Putin footballer takes over, then Putin, Russia has won. And Europe has let, no, but if that happens, Europe has let that happen, because Europe has not really spoken.

• 27:42Speaker 04

  Even if that happens, that's not, it's not finished, because the Georgian population is on the street. It's a society that is much more democratic than its political elite, and that was what has happened over this past. This generation that was born after the independence of Georgia is a very different generation, and one that is very free, that has been travelling, studying outside of the borders of Georgia. And those people are not going to accept that they are stolen from their European future. The day before yesterday, we had one of the marches, because on top of the protests, the massive ones, we have marches from different segments of the society, and one of these

• 28:26Speaker 04

  marches was a march of all the ethnic minorities of Georgia, including those where Armenians and Azeris together. And that doesn't happen in very many countries, and they were all marching for Europe. So whatever happens to me, in a way it's only going to consolidate these people on the streets. And whatever the decisions of two slow, two cautious partners that we have, or maybe less so, the Americans, let's see what they're going to do, that won't change because Georgia has been used over centuries and centuries to be sometimes bigger but still a small country and to be fighting its own fights.

• 29:10Rory Stewart?

  Finally, for me, Madam President, how have you changed over the last few years? What have you learnt about leadership at a moment like this? What does this mean to you personally, this moment?

• 29:20Speaker 04

  Well, this moment, to me, is as existential as it is for the Georgian population and for the country itself. Because I came back to this country to serve as a foreign minister, and in a way it was revenge on my family that had to leave the country under Russian occupation. So I was coming back as a foreign minister in charge of accelerating the European path of Georgia. And I've always been pro-European, that has never changed. So sometimes they accuse me of having changed. No, it's Georgian dream that has completely changed and has changed the dream into a Russian tragedy.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  But, so for me, it's existential. If, after six years as a president of Georgia, I had to witness Georgia returning, becoming a type of Belarus, that would be a very big personal tragedy, together with the country's tragedy and the tragedy of my people. But I'm an optimist. I was always, and I think that this fight is not finished. I think Russia is much weaker than what the Europeans think.

• 30:35Alastair Campbell?

  Well, listen, thank you for your time. Can I just ask as a final question? When you were foreign minister, you spent a lot of time dealing with Sergey Lavrov, the Russian... Foreign Minister, I just wonder your sense of him as a politician, as a figure, how important he is within this, or is he a bit like Ivanish Vily, just somebody who is doing Putin's bidding?

• 30:57Speaker 04

  I think that Lavrov, when I knew him, and I've said that many times, he was a very high-level professional. Some people criticized me for that, saying that that was a pro-Russian, but it was nothing pro-Russian. He was a well-trained professional, as are many Russian diplomats. But certainly he was an executor of the decisions that were taken beyond him by Putin or by the leaders that were by Medvedev and Putin at the time when they were together. So he didn't have any, I would say, autonomy, or at least I couldn't see that autonomy, and certainly not today.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  Whereas Ivanish Vily has, I think, some form of autonomy towards... Certainly, he's taking this country in a direction that pleases Putin and is trying to please Putin, but I would not say that he is not himself somehow afraid of the support of Putin and whether that support is not a bit shaky when he's looking at what happened to Assad in Syria. So it's a different relationship still. It's not a pure executor of Putin, and he also knows by having lived a very long time of his life in Russia what Russian leaders do with people they do not need anymore.

• 32:25Alastair Campbell?

  One-word answer: will you still be president this time next week, and will Georgia ever join the European Union?

• 32:33Speaker 04

  I will certainly be president this time next week for the Georgian people, and that's what matters.

• 32:40Alastair Campbell?

  And European Union?

• 32:42Speaker 04

  We'll see.

• 32:43Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, well, listen, thank you so much for your time, and good luck. I can't imagine what it's like at the moment, but you seem remarkably calm and relaxed and fresh, so I wish you all the best this week.

• 32:55Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.

• 32:57Rory Stewart?

  Thank you so much, Madam President. Thank you. Bye-bye.

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• 34:49Rory Stewart?

  Wow. Well, there we are, Alistair. Goodness. Um, before we get into the, um, the details, quick glossary for people who I'm sure are following all this, but just some of the key things. So, uh, she talked about Chevenant taking over after the Soviet Union collapsed and Georgia being an absolutely vital location there in the Caucasus, between Turkey and Iran, which is south of it, and Russia, which is in the north. And this is why these visits to Iran. From the newly elected, or depending on what you think about the election, but anyway, the de facto prime minister to Iran is really important. She then talked about Saakashvili, and Saakashvili, of course, presided over the Rose Revolution,

• 35:33Rory Stewart?

  which was this moment of great optimism in the early 2000s, where it really felt as though Georgia was accelerating on its path to being a Western democracy. And then she talked a lot about Ivan Shvili, who you raised, who is a man who made a colossal, a Georgian who made a colossal fortune in Russia as an oligarch.

• 35:55Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 35:56Rory Stewart?

  And this was a moment where people remember the, essentially, Russia decided to privatize its state-owned enterprises, and people, many, many of them with very, very strong connections to gangster groups, scooped up these shares at very cheap prices, started essentially gang wars between them, and ended up controlling huge swathes of the Russian economy, and he was one of those people. He then returned to Georgia, and his wealth, which was in the many billions, was a very, very high percentage of the GDP of the country, in fact, far more than the government budget, and began spending, people reckon, hundreds of millions, even billions, in building this

• 36:39Rory Stewart?

  party, winning elections, and then creating, and this is the final thing I'll say, and then back to you, when she talks about the choice being a choice between Belarus and an independent Georgia, to remind people, Belarus, which is obviously on the Western flank of Russia, is essentially a Russian proxy. It's an autocratic, brutal dictatorship, run by a man who essentially is a Putin extension, and behaves as though it's still part of the old Soviet Union. Over to you.

• 37:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I think it's very interesting that she's still very much a diplomat. She didn't particularly want to criticize European leaders. I think she has a lot to be critical about. She could be, given the considerable support they've given to Ukraine. She essentially is saying this is a different kind of warfare. She sees this as a different form of invasion that Russia has mounted. And, you know, as we said on the podcast at the time, Viktor Orban was straight on the plane to Tbilisi when the election was announced, congratulated Georgian dream on their great win, while she's out saying this is rigged, and a lot of the international organizations really just keeping quiet. Very good question

• 37:49Alastair Campbell?

  here from Mathieu Telemans, Rory, says, what do you suggest the EU and UK can do to support the Georgian cause? What can we learn from our approach before the invasion of Ukraine? Why don't you have a go at that?

• 38:01Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, I'll try that first and then back to you. So the first thing is to show moral support above all. The only European Union leader who's visited Georgia since this very flawed election has been Viktor Orban, the Hungarian populist who turned up because he believes in strong men, he sympathizes with Putin, and he wanted to embrace the eventual victory. All that needed to happen, and it's eye-wateringly astonishing to this and happen, is a Swedish foreign minister, a British foreign minister, some other third person, I don't know, from somewhere else in Europe, getting on a plane to Georgia and saying,

• 38:45Rory Stewart?

  we think that the serious concerns, and these are now documented by big international organizations, about these elections merit having a rerun of the election with proper monitors in place. That's all the president's asking for. That's all the demonstrators are asking for. And it's not a huge ask for Europeans that can see the importance of this, to back the international institutions that have pointed out the flaws in this election.

• 39:11Alastair Campbell?

  I did see, when I was researching for today, I went on the Foreign Office website and I didn't see any of this in our media. Last week, David Lammy in the Foreign Office put sanctions on five ministers and law and order security officials who were behind the crackdown on the protesters. I guess she would want more sanctions, but Hungary and Slovakia vetoed the European Union, trying to bring in tougher sanctions. And there is a real, I mean, it's why I'm so disappointed that Orban did say no to, you know, doing an interview with us, because he is such a powerful figure in a debate like this. He is the one who is blocking the European Union from doing things that perhaps he wants to do. And meanwhile, the

• 39:51Alastair Campbell?

  Prime Minister, Kovaevic, he said at a press briefing last week, the President Zurobi Zhvili will have to leave office on December 29, that's in two days. Let's see where she continues her life, behind bars or outside. I mean, they, she was very, very calm considering that is the threat that they're making. They're basically saying, if she doesn't leave in two days' time, she's going to get nicked.

• 40:15Rory Stewart?

  I think the risk, of course, particularly in a world which is increasingly isolationist, and you can see some of this in the questions, in the comments on the, on the stream. You've got people presumably from the right saying, it's none of our business, screw them. And you can see people from the left saying, basically, we cause more problems than we solve when we try to support these countries. Meanwhile, the Georgians are being hung out to dry, because it's not a neutral situation. It's not somehow being resolved just inside Georgia. It's being resolved with massive influence from Russia, with Russia very strongly on one side of the balance. And again, I mean, just to, people will have followed this,

• 40:59Rory Stewart?

  but in Romania, Russia managed to back tens of thousands of fake accounts on TikTok in order to get a previously completely unknown far-right populist who presented himself, this is just a few weeks ago, presents himself as the Messiah, as Jesus, basically, to the Christians, as Stalin to the communists, as goodness knows what else to everyone else, and manages to come top in the presidential election with direct Russian interference. So the stakes are incredibly high. And, and I think, maybe this is the question back to you. In a world in which European leaders don't have much strength, you know Macron,

• 41:43Rory Stewart?

  Schultz, not very powerful, and Trump pursuing an isolationist policy, are we likely to just be in a situation where the West just gives up and Putin feels he can do this in Georgia, he'll be able to do this elsewhere in the Caucasus, he'll have a chew at Moldova, etcetera?

• 41:59Alastair Campbell?

  Well, if you go back to the interview we did just before Christmas with Bill Clinton, I mean, his view is that Russia successfully interfered in the first election, that Donald Trump's first term, when he defeated Hillary Clinton. Now, obviously, Bill Clinton is pretty biased in that debate, but there has been a lot of suggestion that that happened. Likewise, I see that somebody is asking on the question feed whether I've blamed Brexit yet. No, I haven't. However, I still don't think we've got to the bottom of exactly how the Russians sought to, and I think successfully to some extent interfered in Brexit. The point she's making is that when we think of the Russians at war, we think of tanks, we think of missiles, but they are conducting, I think it was Alex Younger when he was head of MI6,

• 42:44Alastair Campbell?

  who first made a speech, I think it was Alex Younger, about this concept of hybrid warfare, information operations, propaganda, involving yourself in elections, trying to influence elections. And she's saying absolutely definitively that both the parliamentary election that she refuses to accept and this new presidential system, because she's the last directly elected president. The new guy, the footballer, he is chosen by the elected representatives and a few people from from outside. So, and there wasn't even a single opponent, it was him. So I think, yes, if if if this guy wins, if this guy's installed and she is driven

• 43:26Alastair Campbell?

  out, I think that will give Putin the idea that he can do this elsewhere. And Moldova is why I think we should talk more about Moldova. I think Moldova is where he has his eyes set on next.

• 43:37Rory Stewart?

  Scott Stapley, isn't there always going to be an issue with the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are occupied by the Russians in combating Russian interference in Georgian elections? So to remind people of this, these are the, what the Russians used to call the Trans Caucasus, the South Caucasus, that the bit on the southern bit of this great Caucasus range, the three countries, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, are complex linguistically and ethnically, and they had autonomous states in them during the Soviet period within the bigger states. And Abkhazia and South Ossetia, so the Ossetians and the Abkhazians are part traditionally of Georgia, still recognised as being part of Georgia, but Russia basically backed movements

• 44:22Rory Stewart?

  from those people, which led, in the case of Abkhazia, to the ethnic cleansing of Georgians and then being pushed out. So part of the history of this, the back of this over the last 20 years, is literally Russian troops entering Georgia, supporting groups against the central Georgian government. And I think this will also be something that we can expect, which is the waters will be muddied very quickly. This always happens. If you think back to the Balkan wars, when you were working on Bosnia and Kosovo, people who don't want to get involved will say centuries of ethnic hatred, very complex, you know, there's a lot of different ethnic groups, not everybody in Georgia's on the right side, they did bad things in the past, there are

• 45:04Rory Stewart?

  two sides to every story. And you can hear a bit of that going on with the Russian interest in Ukraine. So trying to hold to the central, pretty straightforward line, which is that this was an election with such unbelievable irregularities, the most dramatic one of all, is that the exit polls, which are, most countries are the most reliable way of getting a sense of what actually happened in the election, were 13 points out of whack with what the government reported the results to be. Hence this demand for new elections and how important this is if we believe in democracy and we don't want to allow Putinism to triumph.

• 45:46Alastair Campbell?

  No, I think it's really interesting. I think that there's a, I just want to read out this comment from a guy called Andro Zalishvili. Thank you very much. I'm listening from Georgia. Thank you for inviting our president. It's crucial for us to ensure attention from Western political media. I don't think this, one of the reasons I was very, very keen to interview Salomoz Zurbachvili, I don't think that Georgia is getting the attention that it needs because it's protest, because it's, you know, quite a small country, three, under four, four million people. But the reason, you, you asked the question about just why is this so important strategically? I thought she gave a, a very good answer to that. So I think the, the UK media should be covering this more. And I also think that the, the

• 46:28Alastair Campbell?

  British government can be taking a lead in this. I'm glad that David let me announce those sanctions last week, but I'd like to hear a bit more publicly about the support for the people who are out in the streets of Georgia.

• 46:39Rory Stewart?

  Well, Alistair, thank you very much. We both worked hard to get that, but you were the final one who secured it. So above all, a thank you to the president because it's an incredibly big thing for her, right in the middle of this, with two days to go for her career on the line, facing prison, to take time out to do this interview.

• 46:58Alastair Campbell?

  I'm trying to think of it. Can you think of any other example of where somebody has gone from one country with one nationality as a diplomat to another and ended up as the president? We had questions, by the way, about how much actual power the president has. Don't think of a President Macron situation here. They have a lot less power than American or French president.

• 47:18Rory Stewart?

  And it was, and it's even more confusing because the president was very powerful under Chevenant's. And then they set out not long after she got in to try to dilute her power. She still does have significant power. So it's not one of these simple situations where the president's powerless and the prime minister's got all the power.

• 47:33Alastair Campbell?

  She did say that she's the last bastion of independent, non-Georgian dream power, which is why if she does go, this is a, you know, you're essentially looking at another little mini Belarus, which is why I think she made that comparison.

• 47:46Rory Stewart?

  I suppose we have talked about this a lot, but it's the theme of the last 20 years, which is the way in which authoritarian states build themselves by hollowing out institutions.

• 48:00Rory Stewart?

  And there's a classic playbook that was first developed in Russia, but popped up in Bangladesh, popped up in Pakistan, has popped up in a lot of Africa, Uganda, for example, which involves taking on the NGOs first. You pass an NGO rule and you say all the NGOs, all the charities are foreign agents and they can't operate anymore. You then begin to change the civil service rules. So Georgia's had this big rule now saying you don't need any qualifications to be a civil servant and they can be sacked on will. So that's effects getting rid of a permanent civil service and bringing in your own political civil service. Then you go after the courts. So we've seen that in Hungary, we've seen that in Poland, go after the media, shut down the newspapers. It's a kind of playbook.

• 48:41Rory Stewart?

  And Georgia is well, well down that path. And when you're seventy, eighty percent of the way down that path, there's not much democracy left.

• 48:49Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. Final thanks. Thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you for watching. Thank you for your comments. Thank you to Taco Jabava, who is the press secretary who helped us get the thing over the line. Thank you to the president. Also want to thank somebody called Alice Halligan, who's the, she's a journalist out there who gave me all the numbers I needed to finally make it happen. And I'm glad that we did. And I hope that, uh, I, well, I wish the president well.

• 49:14Rory Stewart?

  Thank you. And, uh, also an encouragement, as, as I often say, to read my friend Gerald Knouse, who's been writing furiously about this on ESI. And for more, a more, um, serious, deep historical look, amazing work by, by Thomas DeWalle, who's written an extraordinary book on the Caucasus and is, is, is tweeting at the moment about what's happening day to day in Georgia, if you want to get the real expertise on this.

• 49:38Alastair Campbell?

  See you soon.

• 49:39Rory Stewart?

  Bye bye.

• 49:40Alastair Campbell?

  Bye.

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