Jonathan Fields’ Buckets For Living A Good Life

Some people exude a calm, confident quietude. Others exuberantly burst with exciting ideas. But it's the rare individual that combines understated self-assurance with a spark so powerful, it incites lasting positive change in all who enter his orbit. Jonathan Fields is one such human. His mission? To humanize and empower the process of creation. To help people and organizations conceive and build better, more conscious businesses, art, and lives in less time, with more joy and less effort. On a personal level, Jonathan is guy I can deeply relate to – a dad and husband who (like me) decided to leave the gilded, protective hallways of mega-law firm life and risk everything in search of a life path of greater meaning for himself and others. Reinventing himself as a socially conscious, serial entrepreneur and mindful innovation strategist, today Jonathan is an A-list blogger, award-winning author, speaker, and founder of Good Life Project –empowering people to live more engaged and connected lives via a global education and multi-media venture that encompasses video projects, his wildly popular podcast and super cool events like Camp GLP, his annual 3 1/2- day retreat that blends friendship, adventure and deep-learning with strategies and tools for accelerated personal and business growth. Beneath it all, Jonathan is a teacher. Brimming with empowering wisdom, I love his focus on process over results. His emphasis on the journey over the destination. His deep understanding that authenticity is everything. And that mindfulness lays forth the path. This powerful ethos is reflected in everything Jonathan does, from his writing and advocacy to most importantly, how he conducts his life down to the smallest details. Jonathan has been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, FastCompany, Inc., Entrepreneur, Forbes, USA Today, CNBC, CNN.com, PBS Nightly Report, Elle, Self, Fitness, Vogue, O, People and thousands of other websites that sound cool, but (in Jonathan's words) don't impress his daughter all that much. His first book, Career Renegade: How to Make a Great Living Doing What You Love*, was named a Top 10 Small Business Book by Small Business Trends and a Top 5 Summer Read by MSNBC. Fields’ second book, Uncertainty: Turning Fear and Doubt Into Fuel for Brilliance*, was lauded as the #1 Personal Development book of 2011 by 800-CEO-READ. This week marks the release of Jonathan's highly anticipated new book, How to Live a Good Life: Soulful Stories, Surprising Science, and Practical Wisdom*. I was lucky enough to get an advance copy (one of the perks of hosting a podcast) and ... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  What I'm fundamentally looking for is I'm on a learning quest. I wanna learn. You know, I'm beginner's mind always, a student always. No matter how much I know, I always consider myself a student. So I'm constantly on the hunt for embodied teachers, people who don't just write about and talk about ideas, but people who live it. People where I can actually look at the way that they're living their lives and say, oh, like, there's something about that that I wanna learn what's underneath that. You know, I wanna learn how that happened. I wanna learn how this person is in the world this way. And I'm constantly trying to get as close to the source as humanly possible.

• 1:40Rich Roll?

  That's Jonathan Fields, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:54Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:59Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What's going on? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to the podcast that bears my name. The show where I have the privilege of going deep and long form with some of the most interesting, some of the most provocative, paradigm-breaking, positive change-making minds all across the globe. And this week, I am very excited and proud to share a tremendous conversation, a very deep and insightful conversation with my good friend Jonathan Fields. But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 2:42Rich Roll?

  Jonathan is a former big corporate law firm guy like me, turned serial entrepreneur. Most of his ventures are very community-driven. He's an award-winning author. He is the founder of something called Good Life Project, which is a media and education venture, as well as a global movement, all oriented around empowering people to live more engaged and connected lives. I think if there's one way of describing what Jonathan does, I would say that he's a teacher in certain ways. He is a guru in the truest definition of that word, guru meaning teacher. He's somebody who helps people amplify their creativity and helps them architect better

• 3:24Rich Roll?

  businesses, art, and lives in less time and with more joy. And that's a really beautiful thing. Jonathan's been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company Inc., Entrepreneur, Forbes, USA Today, CNBC, CNN, PBS, blah, blah, blah, all those cool places, thousands of other websites that, in his words, "sound cool but do not impress his daughter all that much," which I think is really cute. Jonathan's got a new book out this week. It's called How to Live a Good Life: Soulful Stories, Surprising Science, and Practical Wisdom. And the book really offers a gateway to a life of meaning, of connection, and vitality. It's a really great book.

• 4:07Rich Roll?

  I had the privilege of getting an advance copy, and we talk about it today in the podcast. And I think you're really gonna enjoy where Jonathan is coming from. I started following him and his writings and his teaching way back, back when I was still a very unhappy, overweight, practicing attorney.

• 4:24Rich Roll?

  And I've always enjoyed Jonathan's very present, kind, patient, caring approach to the information and the wisdom that he imparts. This is Jonathan's second time on the podcast. The first time was way, way back in early 2014, I think, episode 74. You could tap that for more on his life story because this episode's a little bit more subject-specific. We talk about cultivating community. We talk about how to let go and be present, how to bridge that gap between inspiration and action. We talk about Jonathan's three buckets to a good life. We talk about the fallacy of balance. We go through Jonathan's morning

• 5:07Rich Roll?

  routines and the importance of embodied teachers. In other words, people that you can be present with, not just books that you read, or people who have imparted wisdom on the page who are no longer with us. In any event, I could sit and talk with Jonathan all day. I just love this conversation and I think you're gonna really get a lot out of it. So, without further ado, please enjoy this exchange with the extraordinary Jonathan Fields.

• 5:38Rich Roll?

  All right, we're rolling. Awesome. I know, for the listeners, we just geeked out for 20 minutes on podcast gear and we're gonna spare the audience.

• 5:49Rich Roll?

  Anyway, but it's a pleasure to see you, my friend. That's awesome. This is great. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time. Totally. We're here in New York City in your apartment that you've opened up. Jerry Rig does a podcast studio. I didn't have to bring my own gear. You have your own stuff, so I'm feeling very slid right in. I'm here to please. Yeah, it's great. And as I was riding my bike over to your apartment to do this, I was sort of thinking about like...

• 6:17Rich Roll?

  What is it about Jonathan Fields? Like, you know, what, what is it? What is it that makes this guy special? What is it that attracts me to him? And I was sort of contemplating like, for lack of a better word, your energy. Like you have really good welcoming energy. Like it's very easy to sit with you and feel at ease and not feel like you have to affect some sort of persona or try to impress you. And I have this sense that that, you know, your ability to kind of walk with that is magnetizing to your audience. Like it's, I think it's, it's one of the things that's allowed you to build this incredible tribe that you have because people feel

• 7:00Rich Roll?

  welcome and good about being part of this community that you've cultivated. Is that accurate?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  You know, it's, that's like asking someone, yeah, like who's inside the jar to read the label. It's like, I don't know. Has he just clearly articulated what makes me special? Yeah, it's really interesting because I've probably occasionally just kind of sat here and thought, why are people actually showing up?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Because I don't, I was not, I wasn't the kid who had a cult of personality. I wasn't the person who always had, you know, like, I'm a regular middle-aged guy, you know, like married dad, living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and just doing something that deeply interests me. And, and I wonder sometimes, I'm like, why do people show up? Why are people interested? And, and the only thing I've really come up with is that I tend to be, and I think it's, my guess is, you know, we've known each other for a couple of years now, that I'm genuinely interested in the people that I hang out with and that I have conversations with. It just makes it really easy to be natural, rather than trying to sort of conjure up some sort of thing where, okay,

• 8:07Speaker 01

  this person has a big name or a big following, so I should be interested in them, so let me get, and it's like, no, I mean, we're just, you know, like, you know, we've, we've hung out a couple of times now and recorded conversations and it's just, I love talking to you. I'm always learning from you.

• 8:21Rich Roll?

  Well, you're just, you're just easy to talk to, you know, I'm like, it'll be fine. I'm going to go over and talk to Jonathan. I'm not going to sweat the details because we're going to figure out how to make this great. You know what I mean? Because you're a very natural conversationalist. And I think it's because you are tapped in, like you have the ability to listen and you know, you make eye contact and you're paying attention and you're present. And I would imagine that it's also a reflection of the work that you've done and you know, the kind of journey that you've been on, the meditation practice, all the mindfulness and everything that you kind of speak to that you also practice in your own life.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I think my sense is it probably isn't outgrowth of that. But as you're speaking, something else popped into my mind that you and I share in common, which is the history in the law. And I remember really, really, really early, I started my career working for the SEC. So I was thrown in to the federal government, you know, like in cinder block rooms, taking investigative testimony under the cover of, you know, like secrecy with literally almost no training. And I learned really, really quickly that if I went in with a scripted set of questions and you know, all I would do was ask the questions and I wouldn't pay any attention to what was being said. I'm guessing you probably figured that out.

• 9:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, after doing, after my first couple of depositions.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:39Rich Roll?

  But that has made me a better podcaster, like taking a million depositions. Like you have to really get to the bottom of who somebody is.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  And that's where, that's where I was going with it. I'm like, you know, I think that training, realizing that at some point, you have to let go of the script and just be present. It makes, because that's where the amazing things in any conversation, I'm sure you've had the same thing with podcasts, the best part of the conversation happened on the tangents you never saw coming. When, when you actually notice them and then you follow them, you know.

• 10:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, if you're, if you're too wed to your question, like, you know, you've done this a million times. I'm sure you've done a million podcasts and there, somebody has their 10 questions that they got to get through and they're not listening and you say your answer and they say, awesome, and then go to the next one. Yeah, you should never strike. And I think that's out, it's, you know, on the, it's fear on behalf of the interviewer because they're afraid of dead air or they're afraid they're not going to know what to say next. But the truth is, if you just let go of all that and you're just there and you're paying attention, the next question is always built into whatever somebody is saying.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  I so agree with that. I had one, it was funny. A couple of years ago, I was, I was doing a segment on TV, actually, and they were, so they were interviewing me. But the, the person, it was a short, tight segment, you know, like typical three, four minute segment on TV. And, and the newscaster who's interviewing me was clearly just like, the next question was on the teleprompter and she was waiting for me to stop, just finish talking, so she could just ask the next question and get through. But it was so obvious that she wasn't listening to me or, or looking at me, that when they aired the segment, my community got really angry. And I, I was like, I had to jump in and calm them down. I'm like, no, no, no, guys.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  It's like, this is just, this is the job. It's a three minute segment. You have to go like really fierce and on pace and then, you know, it's, don't, don't be upset. It's just, it's the nature of this type of setting.

• 11:28Rich Roll?

  It's not a 90 minute podcast. You know, it's easier to do a 90 minute podcast than it did. I had to do a TV thing in Washington DC a couple of weeks ago and it's the same thing. It's like, you better like be able to spit your message out really quickly and concisely, because it's over before it begins. And that's just the nature of that form of medium.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  It is.

• 11:45Rich Roll?

  This is an antidote to that in many ways. And I think that the ascendancy and the popularity of podcasting is like a salve to everybody's, you know, kind of, you know, burned out feelings about watching, you know, canned nonsense on television.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  I, I think we're getting really tired of staying surface level. You know, I think there's so much of it around these days, um, that when you have the opportunity to actually have a real sustained, deeper conversation with people or sit in on that conversation, it's, it's something that I think we're, we're, we're missing that.

• 12:19Rich Roll?

  It's an intimacy that a lot of us, you know, are lacking in our own lives, I think.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:24Rich Roll?

  And I'm sure you've had this experience when you meet people who listen to, you know, your show or just, you know, are part of your community. They feel very connected to you in a way that is sometimes surprising, you know? And I think that, that's a testament to the power of the medium. When you are, uh, you know, willing to, you know, take the time and be honest and be vulnerable and, and be open to, you know, what it is. Because people feel like, oh, they're They're listening in on, you know, like a private dinner party conversation. Like, there's an intimacy to it and a specialness to it that makes people feel included.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I totally agree. And I've gotten so many comments saying literally almost exactly that. Like, people saying almost, "I feel a little bit guilty." It's almost like I'm listening in to a private conversation between two friends.

• 13:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like they're violating.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Right. I'm like, "No, no, it's all good." Rationally, like, that's our intention to share it the whole time. It's cool, man.

• 13:15Rich Roll?

  Well, I've been following you. I mean, we've known each other for a couple of years, but I started following you many years prior to that, when I was still, you know, a practicing lawyer, kind of looking for, you know, the exit door and very unsure about, you know, how to do that. And, you know, struggling for many years, trying to figure it out. Um, back in, I guess, the first iteration of you kind of stepping into this online world was really career renegade. Is that?

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Well, like, that's when I first discovered you and started reading your stuff.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was... So, I stepped into the online space probably about a year before that book came out. Because... But I did it because I had signed the book deal. And I knew I was gonna start to make a shift into becoming an author and doing a lot of stuff. So, my first question was, "Well, where's the future of book marketing?" And it was just really clear to me that the future was gonna be all online. And I had been in business before that and built a reputation, had generated a nice amount of PR and stuff like that. But it was all traditional. And I had no relationships or no understanding of how the whole online world worked or digital media world. So, um, I just started playing and dabbling as a blogger. Um, and, and so that was the entree.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  And it just, you know, over the years, it has grown and morphed and changed to something else. But, yeah, originally, it was literally just to start to build a platform in anticipation of my first book.

• 14:35Rich Roll?

  Right. And I'm interested in that growth and that trajectory, because it has changed and morphed. I mean, you could have stayed like, "I'm the self-publishing guy." You know, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of be in this lane and, you know, develop a certain level of expertise and speak to those people." But you've grown out of that. And it's, so, to tackle, you know, bigger, you know, subjects, you know, basically, personal growth, which is, you know...

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Makes me a little nervous.

• 15:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is. And that's one of the things that I really appreciated in the new book, in the foreword, you know, where you kind of call out right at the beginning, like, who am I to talk about, you know, how to be a better version of yourself? And you had a really great answer to that. You know, I'm stepping into, starting to put together a next book that traverses similar territory, and I butt up against that. Like, I struggle with that. Like, you know, like, does anybody really need to read another one of these books? Like, what am I going to be able to say is different or new? But I loved what you had to say about that. Maybe you can kind of articulate.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's definitely, you know, it's a struggle on a couple of levels. One was actually only in the fact that, like, really at the heart of who I am is a deep exploration of human potential. And that while a lot of, um, do you want to wait for the siren?

• 15:47Rich Roll?

  No, we're in New York, man. It's part of the deal.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  It's just flavor. It's like, I'm used to it, but I know. You know, so for me, it was, part of it is getting comfortable with the fact that that's actually the guy that I am, deep down underneath, even though I've been writing about business and entrepreneurship and creativity and innovation, that fundamentally, deep down, what I really care about is how all of those things change the person within those experiences. And so to a certain extent, I do have a fascination with those processes. But I also kind of realize that it may be a little bit of me wanting to kind of hang my hat on these, you know, supposedly more legit, I'm making like air quotes with my fingers here, like legit pursuit, rather

• 16:34Speaker 01

  than just like stepping squarely into the space of human potential and personal development. Because my association with that space has been not the best one. And so the last book I wrote before this, Uncertainty, was named the number one personal development book by 800 CEO, which is this really, you know, very well-known and established business book thing, and it was an amazing award to receive. And when I got that award, I was like, really? Personal development? That's not me. And then I kind of said that, had a conversation with people who knew me, and they're like, no, actually, that is you. That's entirely you. You just don't want to own it.

• 17:09Rich Roll?

  You were, at the time, thinking of yourself as more of someone who was speaking to entrepreneurship?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and creativity and innovation and stuff like that. And, but, so with this book, you know, for me, part of the process has been How do I actually get comfortable with the fact that that is really who I am?

• 17:29Rich Roll?

  The audacity.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  I know, like, I need to redefine, sort of, you know, like, the space. And, and then, and then how do I get comfortable with the fact that maybe I have something to say? And, and the truth is, and this is what I wrote in the introduction to the book, it's like, fundamentally, when it comes down to the actual theories and strategies, none of us have a whole lot that's new to say. I mean, um, you know, the, the problem with us, like, the human condition essentially remaining largely unchanged for, you know, like, a zillion years, it's not so much that we don't know what to do. It's that, that what to do is not delivered in a way that, that is, is lands in, it's not told in a way where it's, it's simple, it's easily digestible.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  It doesn't require people to buy into all sorts of, you know, like, big, major disruptive shifts and changes.

• 18:21Rich Roll?

  Or a lot of dogma.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Or a lot of dogma, yeah, you know, and ideology where you, like, you have to bury yourself in this stuff to be able to say, no, I, I just want to feel better when I wake up in the morning and when I go to bed at night.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  It doesn't require a costume.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my, my goal was, was really be like, you know what, I'm a middle-aged guy. Um, and what, what can I write? How can I write this in a way where it's literally somebody who's in the middle of their lives, you know, can just immediately say, yeah, this really resonates with me. I don't have to struggle or work to understand it. I don't have to buy into anything. Um, and I can just, and I can sort of digest it in tiny little bite-sized pieces. And the other thing I say in the beginning of the book is, don't trust me. Don't trust anybody. You know, like, my, my only request, I, I'm not asking you to buy into anything. I'm just saying be open, you know? And most of the chapters in the book after the first one are these tiny little chapters, they're like five to eight pages.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  So I'm not asking, I'm not even asking for much more than, you know, like, 10 minutes of your time on a day.

• 19:24Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  And then it's like, just try it. And let your own experience validate or invalidate whether this is legit for you.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you definitely accomplished that. I mean, I would say, you know, much like yourself, I have a weird kind of like relationship with the whole self-help genre of books.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:41Rich Roll?

  Which is odd because I've benefited tremendously.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Right, so have I.

• 19:45Rich Roll?

  At any time, somebody hands me one, or I buy one, I'm like, come on, really?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 19:50Rich Roll?

  Am I really gonna read this? And I just, I have to overcome that barrier to get to a state of open-mindedness.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:57Rich Roll?

  And I don't know what, I mean, I don't know what that is.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  I mean, do you think it's that we were both sort of like longtime New Yorker slash lawyers who have been trained to just, you know?

• 20:04Rich Roll?

  Be skeptical.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. It's like, this can't, we're just looking constantly for what's, but I don't even think that's it, because I think, um, maybe it is, actually.

• 20:14Rich Roll?

  I don't know what it is.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  I don't either, but I know.

• 20:16Rich Roll?

  Because I'm not like, I am an open-minded guy, and, you know, I do all kinds of crazy out-there stuff, so it's not like I'm closed off to that. Maybe it's the, you know, like I said before, the audacity of it, or like, who, who does this person think that they are, that they have the answer, and now I'm supposed to listen to? Like, maybe that's a control, I don't know what it is, whatever, but my point being is that, you know, so here I am, I'm sitting, you've sent me an early copy of your book, and I, so I go through the mental gymnastics of that, but I'm like, I know Jonathan, he's my friend, I've been reading his stuff forever, I know where he's coming from, and he's got, you know, one of the biggest hearts of anyone that I know, and I crack the book open, and, you know, the thing about your book is, I can, I could tell, first of all, it's wonderful, congratulations.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:57Rich Roll?

  You wrote a great book.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Thanks, man, I appreciate that.

• 20:59Rich Roll?

  It's gonna be amazingly successful, I have no doubt about that. I could tell immediately that it is a very fine distillation of a lifetime of experiences and study, and teaching, and advocacy, and the million books that you've read, and all the different things that you've tried and practiced, um, are all kind of like coming together into this document that really is you conveying to, you know, the reader in very easily digestible terms, "Look, here's some simple things that you can do. I've divided it up into these three buckets, each bucket, there's ten little chapters, and I tell little stories, and I make it very easy with some practical things that you can like, implement very easily without disrupting your whole life,

• 21:41Rich Roll?

  or adorning robes, or going to some temple, or whatever, having to go, you know..." Get on a plane and go to retreat to make your life, you know, a little bit better and hopefully perhaps a lot better. Is that fair?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. Actually, that's, that is exactly.

• 21:56Rich Roll?

  So it's like, there's nothing intimidating about, you know what I mean? Like you could crack it. It's super easy to read, you know, and you don't even have to read it from beginning to end. You can pop it open to the part that you're dealing with or struggling with.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Totally cherry pick the chapters.

• 22:08Rich Roll?

  And it's like, oh yeah, of course I can do this thing, you know, and that will help. I, but the thing is I have to actually do it.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  And so it's that thing you kind of, you were tiptoeing around earlier. Um, that gap that exists between the inspiration or the, the information and the implementation of that.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yep. It is that, that's the big thing, you know, and what I found, so I'm, whenever I take any kind of strengths test or anything like that, love of learning always comes up at the top for me. So I'm, I'm the oddball dwarf that actually loves to just sit there and learn and learn. I devour knowledge. And I'm also wired in a way where I'm constantly running experiments to test and validate the knowledge, you know? If there's science, then first I'll read, if there's science, I'll go and I'll find the science and I'll deconstruct the studies and trying to actually talk to the researchers. And if there's not, I'll, I'll do an N of one and run it in my own life and see, is this legit or not? You're kind of the same way from what I know.

• 23:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Um, and I don't want someone to have, I realize most people aren't like me. So I'd rather kind of really distill that and just say like, here's something to try. Here's a really simple way to actually get into it and get out of it.

• 23:16Rich Roll?

  People are not like you in what way?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  In that I don't think most people want to go down that rabbit hole. So most people are just kind of like, just get, just tell me what I need to know and tell me what to do. Like really simple, short and sweet. I don't care about the background, the philosophy, the deep research. I mean, I had to, it's funny. I had to literally stop myself so many times when I was writing because I was starting to go really deep down like the, the science rabbit hole with this and share like this study says this. And then this researcher had like this add on. I'm like, no, no, no, this is fascinating to me. Um, and there is a lot of research behind it, but.

• 23:52Rich Roll?

  You could have footnoted every sentence.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Right. It's over complicating. It's just massively over. Most people want is tell me a story so I can understand how this really engages me. Give me a little bit of science, enough from my rational brain to say, oh, I get how this could work and why it really matters. And then just tell me what to do. Um, so I had to keep pulling myself back, you know, to just really focus on that and make it, make it almost deceptively easy um to move through um knowing that a lot of these, you know, like seemingly really simple little things or actions actually have a lot of science behind them and really move the needle in a lot of parts of life.

• 24:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an interesting kind of conundrum because when you put a book out like this, there's almost the expectation that you're gonna tell the secret that has yet to be told.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  And sometimes it's just, really, it's that again.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 24:46Rich Roll?

  It can't be that easy. Like, how can you take me beyond the velvet robe, you know, into the VIP room to tell me this, the top secret?

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 24:53Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  It is, and the secret is, there's no secret, man. The secret is, just do it. The secret is getting out of your head and taking action.

• 25:03Rich Roll?

  The secret is, is action.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's the simplest stuff on the planet, you know? It's like so much of what, you know, like you and your wife are about and your whole crew is like, you know, it's actually not that hard, you know, eat more plants when it comes to like the food side of things. Um, you know, there's, and there's a lot of nuance around it and you've got great ways to, but you know, fun, the basic stuff is there for us. We just kind of need really specific instructions to be able to do it. And that's why, um, I mean, so part of what we're looking to create around this is the book is sort of like a guide, but we're also, you know, looking to, and we've already built a substantial community, but there's tremendous research also around the fact that um, that the only road to success is just sustained action over a longer window

• 25:49Speaker 01

  of time. And if you don't have people to do the sustained action with, your chances of actually doing it over a long period of time plummet pretty quickly. So what we're trying to do is actually build community around the book also. And either with, within us, I mean, we've built a beautiful community with Good Life Project, so it's like, join us, or You know, really strongly recommending that people go out and just like find a couple of friends to do this with.

• 26:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  And that's not because I want to sell more books to a couple of friends. It's because your likelihood of succeeding at any form of sustained behavior change, just it goes up exponentially when you do it with people.

• 26:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exponentially. That just the accountability, the positive and negative accountability of being in a group setting, which gets to, you know, one of the buckets, and we're going to explore these buckets in a minute. But I love the phrase that you use in the book, which is, it's ripples, not waves. You know, in other words, you know, that can, it's the boring little thing. It's like, you know what? I'm not going to check my iPhone for my email the minute I wake up. I'm going to delay that, you know, 20 minutes, half an hour. It's like, nobody's going to write a blog post about that. It's not sexy, you know, but it's those things done consistently over very extended periods of time.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  That change your life. And, you know, when I was struggling with how I was ever going to get out of being a practicing lawyer and reading your stuff, the idea that I would be sitting in your living room doing a podcast, it's just like, it's insane, you know, like, I just can't even, you know, it doesn't make any sense at all. And it only happened because I was doing tiny little things every single day.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  So can I, can I ask you something though? Because I'm really curious about, I know we've talked about a lot of sort of like how you developed into like the massive super athlete that you are. Was when you were, because you also came back from a really dark place, where did you take sort of a really kind of like bite sized incremental approach over a long term to go from where you were, which, which was like really struggling physically, emotionally to being like astonishingly fit and healthy?

• 27:50Rich Roll?

  I think it was a mix of lightning bolt moments and tiny actions taken consistently. Like I had a couple line in the sand moments where I made decisions about how I wanted to live and didn't want to live anymore.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:02Rich Roll?

  And kind of removed the decision fatigue out of that by saying, stepping over that line and saying, I'm doing this now.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  But the actual change in terms of manifesting it in any kind of tangible, material way only occurred through that, you know, daily pressure. So the transformation from, you know, absolute disaster alcoholic to productive sober member of society was, you know, a 10 year period.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:26Rich Roll?

  And a transition from schlubby couch potato, 50 pound overweight guy to Ultraman athlete, that was a number of years too. And, you know, The, if you read about it on the internet, it makes it look like it all happened overnight.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:39Rich Roll?

  And that's just not the truth, you know? It was very difficult and it was painful and it required sacrifice and all that kind of stuff that isn't fun to talk about or write about, but you know, that's how real change happens. But you can't, you know, when we talk about that, that bridging that gap between information and action or inspiration and action, you know, there's, you know, what, what stands in between the success and the failure with that is willingness and willingness is not something that you can, you know, give somebody. It has, it's a self-generated thing.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  It is, there's, there's something deeper that it has to come from. But you know, it's, it's interesting. So I think, you know, you brought up like these lightning bolt moments, which I think a lot of people, those tend to be the things that kickstart people and launch them into behavior change, but they, they rarely ever sustain people unless there are a series of them.

• 29:28Rich Roll?

  Especially without that community accountability.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So it's like this, it's this blend of community accountability. It's a blend of sort of a, a, a series of continued awakenings. And it's also what I found, and this was really interesting. I had a chance to sit down with Kay Anders Ericson, who is the guy who's done all like the leading research on greatness, on world-class performance at, you know, Gladwell and so many others quoted and kind of correctly and somewhat incorrectly.

• 29:57Rich Roll?

  I have a Gladwell story that I want to tell you, don't let me forget.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:00Rich Roll?

  Keep going, sorry, I don't want to interrupt.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, and I was saying to him, I was like, cause he's like, look, you know, if you want to become really good at anything, it takes years and thousands of hours, you know, may not be 10,000, it may be 5,000 or 25,000, but, but it's not fun practice. It's grueling, you know? And the nature of the practice, and I, and I said to him, I said, you know, I've had this question for years. I've, I've known about his research for about a decade now, since he, I first saw it published. I was like, what keeps somebody doing that for so long if it's not fun? And this was the first time that he actually, we had a conversation about the role, the importance of a teacher or a mentor. And he said, Neil, a teacher or mentor isn't just to sort of like tell you what to do and what not to do and providing a regular source of accountability.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  It's that they can construct sort of like a learning process where it's hard enough so that you really feel like you're challenging yourself, but they kind of know that, you know, you'll have enough of these tiny little wins along the way. So that little moment of like, oh, hell, yeah, like, I just, I just nailed that. You know, it's enough of a feedback mechanism to keep you in it and to keep you like doing a little bit more. So rather than like hitting that place, you're like, I'm just done. I'm just not getting anything. I'm working so hard and I'm not seeing the growth that I want to see. A really good teacher or mentor will be able to tap in to that psychology in you and adjust

• 31:27Speaker 01

  sort of like the learning and the practice process so that it's, it's still really hard because it has to be, but they'll, they'll make sure that it's done in a way where you do continually experience these tiny little wins that serve as feedback mechanism to keep you in it and to keep it self motivating, which goes back to like Theresa Amabile and the whole, the research around like progress actually being the single biggest motivator for sustained action as well.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  That's super interesting.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:08Rich Roll?

  I'm just sort of thinking about how that's applied, you know, in my own life and in the lives of other people. Like I, you know, I'm thinking, you know, the Olympics just completed, so I'm thinking about Michael Phelps and like, you know, this guy's been participating in the Olympics for 20 years and he's had his ups and downs and like 2012 was kind of his low moment. He's so great, he could still compete, but you know, how did he bounce back from that? And when you were talking, you know, when you were sharing those ideas, I'm also thinking about. The importance of finding the love in it. You know, it's like he'll tell you that now, you know, his teammates and their success and the community of showing up for practice, you know, with his friends is equally as important in keeping him invested in what he's doing than his own personal success.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a huge part of it. You know, and this is something I talk about a bit in the book, but it's also just been a deep topic of curiosity for me is belonging. The role of belonging in our lives. And what's kind of funny, it's the backstory to this book, actually, is this is not the book that I sold to my publisher.

• 33:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah?

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:13Rich Roll?

  What was the original book?

• 33:15Speaker 01

  The original book was a deep dive into belonging, because it's been this years-long fascination for me. Because it turns out that we're physiologically and psychologically wired to have to belong. If we don't belong, we pretty quickly get unhappy and that moves into dysfunction on all levels and eventually we die. And, you know, it's very likely some sort of leftover from survival, because if you're outcast, if you're isolated from the tribe, you're busted. You weren't going to last long, so we have it wired into us that somehow we have to belong. And so, but the challenge, there are a couple of challenges with that. One is that most of the big institutions that provided this really big sort of like

• 33:57Speaker 01

  experience of belonging, either they're going away or they don't provide it anymore. And that's leaving us looking for it in places that aren't providing it anymore. And very often looking for it online, too, where we get like this sort of like surface level, you know, like diluted taste of it, but it's not totally taking care of that Jones. But we have to be in community if we're going to be okay. It's not just about goal achievement, you know, it's about flourishing in life. And I'm deeply fascinated by How we are trying to solve for that need right now and how we're going to solve for it down the road as the world becomes increasingly digital.

• 34:37Rich Roll?

  And addressing that need in business and entrepreneurship is very interesting. And you actually use the case study in your book about CrossFit. Like, that's a big reason why CrossFit has become such a, you know, a massive success is because it gives people that sense of belonging and community. It's not just going to the gym and anonymously, you know, running alongside somebody on a treadmill.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and as I kind of don't pull punches with the, so I had, you know, my first step out of the law.

• 35:05Rich Roll?

  You come from this.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Right, was, you know, I spent a dozen years in the fitness industry. So, you know, my, I went from, you know, doing really nicely as a lawyer to making 12 bucks an hour as a personal trainer, learning the industry, opening my own facility, growing it, selling it, opening another facility and growing that. And so, you know, like, and what I saw was just massive dysfunction. And, but one of those big sources of dysfunction is that, you know, most of the culture in a large club these days is, you know, you walk in, most people don't know your name, you key swipe in, there's never any human contact except for a brief glance up to validate that your membership is active and you don't have to like get sent to somebody to handle things. And then you're kind of on your way and then, you know, what's the first thing you do?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  You change into your clothes, you put on headphones, right? And A, because it's music and you just want to get jazz, but, but more importantly for most people these days because the rows and rows and rows.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  That way you don't have to talk to anybody.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Right, right. It keeps you isolated. And then all these rows of repetitive motion machines, which most people experience as as just horribly monotonous and boring to distract yourself from it. You plug into entertainment systems, you know, so you're distracting yourself and you're also even more now isolating yourself from even the possibility of community. Um, and so then along comes, you know, like a place like CrossFit or SoulCycle or there are a whole bunch of other-

• 36:27Rich Roll?

  Or even like Spartan races-

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Exactly, Spartan, Tough Mudder, all these things. Like, one of the things that's happening on the surface is people are reconnecting with nature and they're reconnecting with intense activity. But really, deeper under the surface, what's really, they're, these are places of intense community and belonging. Like, they finally have a place where they live. I mean, people will join CrossFit and pay, you know, like, four times more than they would pay at the local gym. And they would join the local gym, they would go for two weeks and keep paying for six months and never go back. They'll join CrossFit, pay, you know, like, a ton more and they'll go and, literally, you know, every single day, they'll be there. And if they don't go, everybody else is gonna call them up and say, "We're out here."

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  The problem is, they go too much and they get hurt.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Right. If anything, that, you know, the problem is, you know, trying to sort of like temper that. But it's in part because the modality is, you know, it's different, it's novel, it's constantly changing. But the bigger thing is that, you know, people find their people. Like, you actually, people quit, people quit, um, products and services and solutions and experiences. They don't quit communities unless something goes wrong in the culture of the community that breaks with the fiber of who they are and what their values are and their belonging is.

• 37:41Rich Roll?

  So how did your book morph out of this kind of singular idea? Because that's a very, you know, it's very specific.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  It is.

• 37:48Rich Roll?

  You know, it's sort of like, you know, Ryan Holiday writes Ego, you know, Ego's the Enemy. It's a very, it's a one specific thing.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:54Rich Roll?

  And you've kind of expanded into this to make it a much more comprehensive-

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:57Rich Roll?

  You know, look at satisf-, life satisfaction.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I did. So a couple of things happened. One was, um, I, I realized I actually wanted to talk about something bigger and, and I, and I realized that there were a whole bunch of other things that, that kind of probably need to work together. But the other was- There's actually a really substantial body of research around this idea around both belonging and isolation and exclusion and kicked off by Baumeister in ninety five. So there's a twenty year body of research, of academic research, which is good news, bad news. Good news is you can look at a lot of data. The bad news is it's still kind of all over the place. There's a lot of disharmony within the science. So the deeper I went down that rabbit hole, I'm thinking to myself, well, I have, I'm the geek who loves learning.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  This is really fascinating to me. But in terms of creating something that might be helpful, it's also likely going to be unsatisfying because I don't think we have enough to sort of create a really in-depth, comprehensive exposition on belonging quite yet. My sense is we need another ten years. So I actually went back to my publisher and I kind of said, here's what's going on. And I'm essentially going to have to agree with one side or another also on the research. And I have, you know, as much of a geek as I am, I'm not the researcher. So I don't have the valid basis to parse, you know, like, and I'll hang myself out to dry. And I'm not particularly looking to do that. And I just don't think it's going to be a satisfying read.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it would have been much more of an academic exercise.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, which for me is fun. But for your average person, not so fun. So I'll very likely just keep exploring that. But I kind of pulled back and I said, you know, I said, I don't think it's going to be, this is the right book to write at this time. But there's another book that as I'm researching this is starting to become clear as a book that I can and maybe should write right now. And I pitched up How to Live a Good Life to them, like, oh, my God, yeah, this is, this is awesome. This is what we want.

• 39:57Rich Roll?

  It's funny because I would have thought, well, you know, it's the Good Life Project, you know, of course your book is going to be called.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Right. So like, they're like saying to me, they're like, why didn't you sell us this book? They literally asked me that question. And I'm like, and my answer to them, so there was about a year between when we sold the first book and I came back to them, I'm like, I just don't think this is, this is the book that needs to be written. And during that year, I had been And starting to come, like, a lot of the ideas, sort of like the bigger framework, really started to come together in my head. And I started testing it with the different people in our different programs. And people were lighting up, saying, this works. It's like, I hear it once, I remember it, it makes sense, and I'm applying it because it's super straightforward. And it's really making a difference. So, so, because my publisher asked the exact same question. They're like, this is the perfect book for you and your brand.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  Right, like, what's wrong with you?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Right. And, and like, why didn't you just give us this one? I'm like, because, because it, probably a year before, it wasn't ready.

• 40:52Rich Roll?

  It wasn't fully.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but, but at that point, I was like, you know what? Now, the, the time was just, it was ready.

• 40:58Rich Roll?

  Well, let's break it down. I mean, you know, it's pretty simple how you've kind of allocated, um, you know, the different, uh, aspects of, of, you know, how to live a good life in the book. And doing it in this, you know, kind of three bucket methodology, which is really kind of cool and brilliant. I would, I'm assuming, and I'm, I'm trying to remember from the book, but I think this is something that you, you, you use with the people that you work with in your community.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 41:23Rich Roll?

  Developed out of that.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the idea was really, how do I take all this stuff that I've been geeking out on, fifty years of my own experiments? And now, like, years and years and years of sitting down with embodied teachers and actually learning from people who, a lot of people don't have the opportunity to sit down with.

• 41:39Rich Roll?

  And, and maybe even before, sorry to interrupt you, but like, even before we get into the buckets, like, what is that? Is, I mean, can you articulate what the, you know, basic strain or tradition of philosophy or, you know, spiritual history or science? Is there any one kind of tradition that predominantly informs us? Or is it really a synthesis of all these things?

• 42:01Speaker 01

  It's really, it is a strong synthesis of them, because my, my brain is wired, I'm probably skeptically or open. So, I'm open to phenomenon that I can't explain. I'm open to spiritual phenomenon. Uh, and at the same time, the first place I'm gonna go after I, I experience a phenomenon or hear about it is science. To see if I can actually find research that validates or invalidates or explains what's really happening under the surface. So, for me, it's this really interesting blend of, you know, okay, so I hear about, this thing happens to people when they're, so I taught yoga for seven years, right? I owned a large yoga center in New York. And there were all these claims about what happens to people when you're doing full immersions.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  These postures where you take your body and put them upside down and, you know, there are claims, everything from it cures everything that could ever go wrong. Then it makes you, you know, it gives you. You can never die and it makes you psychic. And I'm like, okay, so some of them are clearly out there, but some of these, I'm really curious, is there a valid basis? So I started to actually research what happens physiologically in your body when you turn your body upside down, you stay there for a little bit of time. And it turns out there are these things in your body called baroreceptors. And when you invert, in a very short amount of time, your blood pressure goes up, but then immediately it triggers these receptors to reverse that and it actually drops your blood pressure in your body. So that when you come back down, that actually sustains for a window of time.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  So if you're doing this regularly, there's an interesting argument that actually says that this actually may help to chronically lower blood pressure, which is one of the claims related to inversions would actually be a lot of the symptomological benefits of lower blood pressure. So I'm always sort of like, I'll start with something which is this, you know, comes out of classic Eastern philosophy and spiritual or even mysticism. And then I try and reverse engineer data or science around it.

• 43:56Rich Roll?

  It's kind of like Dan Harris did that with.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. Especially because, you know, part of it for me is just a deep fascination, but part of it is also there's a teacher in me. And I also know that for me to have an idea that's shared that people will then, again, I care less about teaching theory, I care more about people acting on whatever it is and you're actually doing the work. So for somebody to actually take action, somebody who's completely open and spiritual will be like, okay, cool, I just, I'll buy into the spiritual side. Whereas somebody who's more rational brain is going to be like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. So I need to be able to actually translate it into that language too, so I can have a broader spectrum of humanity, be able to say, okay, I get how that actually might

• 44:44Speaker 01

  make a difference and I'm willing to try. So that's part of what's going on there. That said, going back to your original question, I am very drawn to Eastern philosophy, to various paths of Buddhism and positive psychology, which is the branch of psychology that sort of grew out of Martin Seligman's work when he decided that actually there was value in exploring how to work with people to take them from baseline to flourishing, not just from sick to baseline.

• 45:17Rich Roll?

  The buckets.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:19Rich Roll?

  Let's break it down.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so three buckets. When you look at life fundamentally, I look at it as having three buckets. One is contribution, one is connection, one is vitality. So.

• 45:30Rich Roll?

  So how did you arrive at these three? Like, how did you decide three and not four?

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I kept bouncing around and at various points, there were probably between four and eight of these. But what I start to realize is, is a lot of them were really just the same thing, using different names. So, for example, at one point, I was like, well, let's make it four buckets and there'll be a bucket for state of mind and state of body. But then, like, it's so crystal clear that there is no separate state of mind or state of body. They're utterly integrated feedback mechanism. And you can't talk about one without talking about the other.

• 46:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was really glad that you put those into one grouping, you know, because we, naturally, we always separate those things. And we just, we gotta stop doing that.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's a fiction. It's a complete and utter fiction to talk about them separately.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  You know, it's so interesting, right? I remember when we were hanging out, so we were talking with you and Julie when your, when your book came out. I can't remember whether this actually aired on the conversation or whether we were just talking about this after the fact. But Julie and I both had something. So we had this, this cyst.

• 46:35Rich Roll?

  Pyroglottic duct cyst.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Right, in our throats. And it was so interesting to me, because, so I went to like the top guy in New York. And he was like, there's only one thing to do. You gotta have surgery and cut it out. So that's what I did. She went, you know, completely alternative.

• 46:48Rich Roll?

  The Ayurvedic route, yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Right. And they're like, no, no, no, like, you can, you can take care of this. And she, so we both end up in like similar end states without this thing in our bodies anymore, but like profoundly different ways.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  And why was I even bringing that up?

• 47:04Rich Roll?

  Uh, mind-body, you know.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Right, it's just, it's the fact that, you know, like, yeah, you can't separate, like, the way that you explore, the way you think about, and the way that your, your mindset profoundly affects the state of your physiology and vice versa, you know? So, the idea of, of separating those out, it just, the more I really thought about it, it felt completely foreign to me. So, you're like, when we talk about the vitality bucket, you know, that's, it's fundamentally, you're focusing on optimizing your state of mind and body. You know, so there'll be, you know, one, one day would focus on a mindset practice, you know? But if you develop, you know, if you sit. And you have a really gentle mindset practice one day. It's not just gonna be good for your state of mind.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  It's gonna change all sorts of physiological markers and inflammation markers and stress markers and disease risk markers and potentially the experience of pain in your body. You know, so it didn't make sense to me to separate that stuff out. So vitality is one, right? State, optimizing the state of your mind and your body. Connection is the other one, which is fundamentally, it's about the relationships between you and yourself. And most of us are pretty dissociated with ourselves. So really understanding who you are, you and anyone who's important in your life, you know, like partner, spouse, colleague, kids, family, close friends. You and a sense of source or something bigger than you that you belong to, however you may want to define that.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  And to me also, nature, the natural world. So these are things that are really important.

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  And what about these extended communities that are so much a part of everything you do?

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Huge, yeah. The bigger community also. And a community can be as small as a handful of people. Or it can be as large as, you know, like a global group of people who are doing something really substantial. And so these are all really, really important. And then the third one is what I call contribution. And that's fundamentally about how you're bringing your gifts to the world. You know, are you investing your energy, the vast majority of your energy every day in a way that makes you feel lit up? That's leveraging like the fundamental values and strengths and beliefs that, that, you know, like lets you feel fully expressed? Because if you're not, and most people aren't, you know, like that bucket runs dry really quickly. If you're not taking care of your body and your mindset, the vitality bucket runs dry really quickly.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  And so and the connection, if you abandon your relationships, that runs dry. And so what we know, so, so the idea is really simple. Life is through these three buckets. Vitality, connection, contribution. A good life is filling those buckets, is keeping them as full as possible.

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  And understanding that they leak.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:41Rich Roll?

  And don't just fill them and move on.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Right. It's, you can't just top them off and be like, I'm good. You know, that's the, the truth is, they all leak. So you have to constantly be filling every bucket a little bit every day, which some people might be a little bummed about, but the truth is, it's an amazing gift to be able to just keep doing things that are enjoyable and fulfilling and enriching to fill them. One of the interesting, so there were, there are three rules of the buckets. One, you know, is that they all leak. Two is that the height of any bucket is always capped by the least full one, which is counterintuitive to a lot of people.

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  It's sort of the idea that you're only as strong as your weakest link.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:17Rich Roll?

  Basically.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, yeah, pretty much. Um, and then the third one is that the buckets don't lie. Um, because we love to delude ourselves into believing that, no, no, no, this relationship will be fine if I ignore it for five years. Right? It's like, it's all good. I'm locked in there, right? It's a family, you know, like they can't, like, it'll be fine, or my health will be fine. Three more years at this job, right? And even though I'm working 113.9 hours a day and I hate it, it'll be okay. You know, like, three years, it'll be totally fine, not realizing that actually, no, actually, it's utterly delusional. It won't be okay. You know, and the truth is the buckets never lie. You know, we can delude ourselves, but at some point, they're going to tell us the truth and grind us to a halt and force us

• 51:03Speaker 01

  to either start filling them or die. It's that simple. There's no middle.

• 51:07Rich Roll?

  The, the basic premise behind all of this really is, is balance, right? Balancing, you know, all of these systems, you know, attending to these buckets. And if you can kind of make sure that you are, you have enough self-awareness, uh, and objectivity about your own life to understand when one of these buckets is starting to leak or drip and needs attention, that you can reach some kind of, you know, functional stasis that's going to allow you to then be more expressive and more actualized and more, you know, I hate the word happiness, but, you know, productive and, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Uh, satisfied, you know, in your daily existence, fulfilled, exactly.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's funny, I use the word balance. There's, oddly, I have this weird reaction to the word balance, maybe because most people use it in the context of work-life balance.

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  Because I want to talk about this.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I actually don't buy that whole thing. Um, but the, as soon as you said balance, the thing that popped into my head was like, not, for me, the, the word isn't balance, it's like fullness. Um, you know, like, I feel like I'm full as I move through the day, like, you know, like, when I think about my relationships, yeah, like, I feel full. I feel they're good. I feel that, that there's, there's a richness to them. When I think about the way I contribute to the world, like, I'm, I'm full. Like, the way I contribute to the world fills me up. Um, and the way I take care of my body and my health and my mind fills me, it leaves me feeling full.

• 52:30Rich Roll?

  I like that. I like that a lot better. You know, balance is, balance is tricky. It's something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  What are you thinking? Like, what's going on in your head?

• 52:39Rich Roll?

  I mean, the thing is, I'm fundamentally somebody who's prone to be out of balance. You know, I'm, I'm in recovery for addiction issues. You know, it's like, I like to go to extremes and it's very easy for me to believe, and I don't know if this is real or, or fabricated, but you know, a lot of the things that I've achieved in my life are the result of being quote unquote, out of balance. Like, you're not, are you in balance if you're training your body 25, 30 hours a week for a race? You know? Are you in balance if you kind of go into that hole to write a book or, you know, do these certain things? And it's like, for me, I sort of feel like maybe this is my, the thing that I need to overcome to be more, um, more full, which is to

• 53:23Rich Roll?

  understand that I don't have to suffer to write a book, you know, like,

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Wait a minute, if you, if you figure that out, I need to know that one.

• 53:30Rich Roll?

  But I was like, no, I gotta like isolate myself and just go deep and, and, and there, there, there is a kernel of truth in that. Like, you know how it is, like if you're starting to hit a groove and you get interrupted because a family obligation comes up, it takes you like two hours to get back into it. So I need like a very extended period of quiet time where I, you know, I can't have anything intruding on that. And that's how I kind of move the ball forward. Over an extended period of time, that's perhaps not a very balanced way to live, but that's how I cert, I, I have achieved certain goals in my life. So I have kind of a, a countervailing opinion about balance. Like in the macro sense, my life is in balance. Like I can't, I can't get so out of balance that my marriage or my relationship with my children, all these things start to, you know,

• 54:12Rich Roll?

  disintegrate or become imperiled. But I think it's okay to allow yourself to go out of balance for a certain period of time, as long as you kind of know what you're doing and understand when you have to snap back.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I pretty much agree with that, you know, which is why to me the notion It's like you said, you don't love the word happiness. I don't either. And, and, and the research pretty clearly shows these days that i- if you sort of make, you know, like attaining happiness, a goal, you end up pretty miserable. Um, and I think balance is the same thing. You know, because what you're assuming is that your life is fundamentally a pendulum that's not swinging. It's just static in the middle. Like, it's just, the goal is to make the pendulum static. It's a complete, an utter fabrication.

• 54:56Rich Roll?

  Nobody can live that way.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:57Rich Roll?

  And then you feel bad about yourself.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Right, so you start beating yourself up because it's this unattainable goal, rather than saying, look, you're like, what, what, what I do believe is possible and can, and can leave you feeling really full is I'm going to be intentional about the decisions that I make, about the actions that I take, and make agreements about why I'm doing them, how I'm doing them, and how it affects me and the people around me. And sometimes you get agreements back about how long we're all willing to, to like, do this together. You know, and have people sort of like pull me and have circuit breakers and triggers when I'm, I'm breaking those agreements, you know? So I can understand and I can, I can, I can constantly be like reconnect with being intentional. You know, so that I can, I, I'm not just falling into an autopilot behavior.

• 55:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  But the idea of, you know, like, life is a pendulum that just stays static in the middle is just, it's such a complete fiction that to try and make that an aspiration, I can't imagine it being anything other than like brutal futility.

• 55:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Rather than just owning the fact that life is dynamic and understand if you're investing yourself fiercely in something, why does it matter to you? What's it gonna take? You're like, if things go south, how will you respond to that? And what are the agreements that you have in place around it? And then keep checking in and be intentional about the way you're making decisions around that.

• 56:20Rich Roll?

  When somebody says, you know, everything in moderation, does that bring up the same sensibility in you or is that different?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably, probably.

• 56:28Rich Roll?

  It's kind of a similar thing.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Probably. That said, there's, um, I think it was the last book, um, I was interviewing Randy Comissar and, uh, and he had this, it was really funny because I, I remember this because I interviewed him, it was, it was a telephone interview. And, um, I was interviewing him, I was staying like in a suite in, in a casino in Vegas. And I'm interviewing a guy about sort of like, you know, like his Buddhist practice in Silicon Valley. And, and he, he said something to me and it was something like, um, Equanimity is a powerful muscle to flex when you step out into the ambiguous void. And I think for me.

• 57:07Rich Roll?

  Hold on, I'm trying to like, wait, say that again.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Equanimity is a powerful muscle to flex when you step into the ambiguous void.

• 57:14Rich Roll?

  I got you, okay.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Um, you know, it's about, balance and equanimity are different, and I think we confuse the two is what, what I'm trying to, to say here.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  How are they different?

• 57:25Speaker 01

  That, because I think balance assumes a, a level of just like staticness. Um, whereas equanimity assumes a level, assumes openness and adaptability to change. Equanimity assumes a state of constant movement and change, and the ability to adapt and respond to that dynamically, whereas balance assumes, um, that everything will be, will come to a point of stillness. Um, and then you try, like, your job is to lock that down.

• 57:53Rich Roll?

  Or stasis, not still.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, stillness is good, actually. Stasis, yeah, a much better word, yeah. Um, so I, like, my aspiration, if anything, is much more towards, like, the ability to be in a rapidly changing environment and still be able to touch stone.

• 58:09Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, and I would imagine that's a reflection of your meditation practice.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a huge part of it, for sure.

• 58:14Rich Roll?

  That's the, that's the superpower of like a well-honed.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you still, do you practice still?

• 58:20Rich Roll?

  I do, yeah, I do, yeah, and I, and I love it. Um, and, you know, it gets interrupted and, you know, I have to get back to it and it's kind of like, you were talking before about, um, we were talking about CrossFit and we were talking about, you know, the gym and how you pay and then you don't go and the power of community to reinforce, you know, sort of the level of engagement of whatever the activity is. And I think behind that momentum is a very important kind of, uh, invisible force that takes place that we all experience. And we know what it's like to, whether it's going to yoga or going running or going to the gym or going to CrossFit, when you're in your routine and there's a self-perpetuating kind of energy that makes it easy to go the next day and the next day and the next day. But once you.

• 59:04Rich Roll?

  You leave for Thanksgiving vacation to visit the relatives and you come back and then you just can't get yourself back to that place. And it's like, there's no logic behind that. You know what I mean? And yet, it's very, very powerful.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  I know. You're like, shouldn't I be better than this?

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  It's like, I've been working for years.

• 59:20Rich Roll?

  I've written a self-uplog.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Right. It's like, come on, man. When do I get a pass here?

• 59:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is that about?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  I, I don't know. We're so much like, as, as advanced, as developed as we get, we're fundamentally just like Pavlov's dogs when it comes down to it in the end.

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  Humans are insane.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:39Rich Roll?

  So, in, in speaking about like, all these people that you've affected and impacted through, you know, your, your tribe and your community that you've built, the Good Life Project and the camps and all of that, and I want to talk about the camps in a minute. Um, what do you think is like, the number one thing that holds people back? Or, you know, what is the strain or the thing that you identify in people that is perhaps the biggest limiter?

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. You actually used the word earlier, awareness. Uh, I don't think we're actually aware of how we move throughout the world. I don't think we're aware of, on a, on a deeper level, I don't think we're aware of who we are, what matters to us, um, what we believe, uh, is important to us and what we value. Uh, on a, on like, the next level, my sense is that we don't, we're, we move through each day very unaware of how we're actually making decisions. And in fact, most of us aren't making decisions. We're, we're maniacally busy from the time we open our eyes in the morning to the time our pillow hits the bed at night. And, which is not actually in and of itself, a bad thing.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  If your, if your day is filled with things that move the needle, that really matter to you, that are an outgrowth of, you know, like, who you are and your need to express yourself and, and step into your potential, um, that's not a bad thing. The challenge is that we're, we're reactively busy.

• 1:01:03Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Rather than being intentional about the way that we're filling our days, we're being massively reactive and sort of like, there's an autopilot sense to existence these days where... The vast majority of the way that we move through our days isn't being aware and intentional and then choosing and acting. It's being unaware and then just letting the like blended agendas of multiple people kind of drop into our laps and all of their agendas and all the stuff that they want done that's important to them becomes all the things that fill our days in our to do lists. And then we blink and the day is gone and we blink and the week is gone and we blink and the year is gone and blink again and life is gone.

• 1:01:58Rich Roll?

  And yet we think we're being productive.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  And then we're confused that we're unhappy. I mean, you have this great, I don't know, three or four page section very early in the book where you're like, tell me if you relate to this, is this your life? And you kind of go through from waking up in the morning to going to sleep at night. And it's just it's just an onslaught, like a series of just reactive behaviors. You know, oh, I check my email and then I check in and I go to Twitter and then I go to Facebook and then I go to Snapchat and then I answer the phone and then I call that guy back and I cross this thing off my to do list and I commute and I come home, whatever. And you your head hits the pillow at night and you're like, I did all this stuff. And then it's like, wait, you actually didn't, what did you really do? Oh, I don't even know.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Rich Roll?

  Because every action was a reaction to something.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Rich Roll?

  That you didn't choose to engage in. So there's no, there's a complete lack of intentionality about how you're living your day.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  And boundaries.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and and it all comes from like the fundamental lack of awareness. You know, so I think awareness, mindfulness, you can probably like pretty close words. Your mindfulness has become a huge buzzword these days and and I think there's a reason for it, you know, beyond the fact that, you know, it's a performance enhancer and all these other things where people are associating particular outcomes, particular, I just made up a word.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  I like that word, actually.

• 1:03:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, let's use that.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  All right, it's particular outcomes. Um, and, you know, but fundamentally, it's, it's just about being able to actually, um, pause it at a given moment, zoom the lens out and notice what you're doing and be able to ask yourself, why am I actually doing this? Like, does, does, is the way that I'm, is what I'm thinking about now is, is the story that I'm telling in my head? Um, are the actions that I'm taking in this moment, like, are they, are they legit? Are they, do they matter to me? Are they in some way allowing me to live well in the world and contribute to society?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Um, so you can't correct course and you can't be intentional until you're aware of the fact that you're not on the course that's deliberate.

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  But I feel, I feel like there's a relative level of awareness, like, this is the great plague of our era, right? Beyond like physical disease, like, this is something that we're all dealing with. Any professional person is combating this reactive tendency to be just, you know, wed to our phones and all this sort of thing. And I think we all know, like, this is crazy. Why are we doing this? And yet there's a certain powerlessness to, to shift that or course correct.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I had amazing chance to sit down with Sherry Turkle, who's MIT researcher, who's been studying like how human behavior reacts to technology. And you heard her whole thing. She's like, look, I'm not a Luddite and, and neither am I, neither are you. We're hanging out using technology to make this happen right now. You know, we all have smart devices. Um, and they're not going anywhere, you know, our apps and our devices are here to stay.

• 1:05:01Rich Roll?

  The thing, so it becomes more incumbent upon us to develop a more responsible relationship to them.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and I think that.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  The the superstructure for that, like the foundation for that is the oldest stuff in the world. It's like meditation. It's these really basic awareness practices that allow us to be like, oh, wait a minute. I've just checked my phone and, you know, like for the 396 time in the bathroom while I'm like, you know, like at a restaurant with people. And there's really no reason for me to be doing this right now, is there, other than the fact that I'm literally just addicted to the dopamine hit it's gonna give me by seeing if there's something new, like that I can heart or respond to or something like that. Um, and I mean, there's so many like places we can go with that, you know, there's

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  a lack of empathy and there's the disconnection. Um, but fundamentally, like that, you know, that the focus is the impact on your inability to be intentional and actually choose your thoughts and your actions in a way that that constructively builds a life that you really want to inhabit. Um, that is not possible unless you start to cultivate a genuine sense of awareness.

• 1:06:24Rich Roll?

  And so what is the first step to cultivating that awareness?

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, in my mind, I love practices. My practice is a mindfulness practice first thing in the morning. And it doesn't have to be, you know, so my practice, I wake up, I roll out of bed first thing in the morning and I sit for 25 to 30 minutes every day. And and that's my anchor. That's the thing that allows me to move throughout the day and hopefully make more choices rather than just receive whatever comes and respond from the time I open my eyes.

• 1:06:50Rich Roll?

  And what is that mindfulness practice specifically?

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So for me, it's a really simple breath oriented practice. So I literally sit and um, and I use a little timer on my phone, which is actually a really interesting moment for me first thing in the morning because I use an app that's a meditation timer and it chimes every three minutes just to kind of give me a sense of.

• 1:07:11Rich Roll?

  You're in the world.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And, and at the same time, right next to, you know, like where I touch to open the meditation timer app is my email icon. So, and it's funny because, you know, I've often thought, well, just put your email on the back page, you know, so you're not tempted by that first thing in the morning. And, and I haven't done it because in an odd way, I actually feel like that's part of my practice, is to see those two side by side and start my day by intentionally not choosing the email app. By like the first, like the first literally, like tiny little bit of, of willpower that I'll exercise is literally choosing a mindfulness practice over checking my email.

• 1:07:52Rich Roll?

  And the juxtaposition of those two things, literally millimeters apart from each other.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:07:57Rich Roll?

  Mentally and in the physical space.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that alone allows me to start my day having an intentional practice and also doing the seated meditation practice, where it's a really simple breath or into practice. I literally just, I start out with about five minutes of some yogic breathing and then I just, I'm sort of looking or observing the sensation of my breath as it's moving in and out of my chest. And it's really, much easier actually for people to start this for a much shorter window of time and also guided with audio. It's one of the reasons some of the things that we're creating around the book are these like guided audio.

• 1:08:31Rich Roll?

  But you have some of these guided programs, right? That are like, you're listed like hyper, like hyperlink in the book.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So there's, there's just one page where, you know, we're creating all these awesome resources and we'll be adding to that too. Because I know, especially when I was starting, it's just much easier if you have somebody's voice in your ears and it's three minutes or five minutes instead of, you know, like doing it yourself for 25 minutes. That's taken me years to build up to. But really, like a tiny little thing makes a really big difference, you know? So having a really basic morning practice like that, where you have an intentional act, you're starting to cultivate a little bit of stillness that just starts to move into your day. And that's the beginning for me. And then you can build with all sorts of fun other stuff from there.

• 1:09:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like it. I think that, that morning routines are having kind of a zeitgeist moment.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Rich Roll?

  Which is great because it really is all about mindfulness and, and being intentional about how you're going to start your day. But I also think it has the tendency to create like a lot of vertigo in people because much like researching nutrition on the internet, you're gonna find like, well, first you do this and then you have to write your gratitude list and then you're writing your, and then you have to journal and then you're doing the artist's way and you go on your artist's date and like all this stuff. And it's like, this is a four hour thing. You know, like, forget it and they just throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I think it's about like, just choose one thing and start with that.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  It's about keeping it really simple. And some people love big, complex routines. I mean, most, I write generally for, you know, like, we're in the middle of our lives and for people who are grownups and who have big, complex lives and a lot of stuff to do, we've actually created and are printing ourselves a companion practice journal to sort of take the, you know, the kickstart that you get from the book and actually turn it into a deliberate practice over a period of months. And the idea is that there's a really simple seven minute practice in the morning and a really simple five minute practice in the evening. So you don't have to think about it. We actually repeat prompts, like, they're really simple exercises. Most of them just repeat and they're super simple. And there are a

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  couple of prompts that kind of rotate through a 28 day cycle. But so for some people, that's great, you know, and for other people, you kind of have to just find your way into whatever the morning practice is that feels good to you.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  What is some bad advice that you hear getting thrown about in the, in the kind of, you know, world in which you now operate?

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Man, I so hesitate to answer that because it condemns anybody whose mouth it came out at the same time and that's sort of not my bent.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Maybe bad is the wrong word. Maybe confusing or less helpful or disconcerting.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  So here's, here's one thing that, that I've heard a lot of, which is that, you know, if things... If you're, if you, if you make a choice to walk a path so that you can step into and create life that you really love to inhabit, that anybody who, and that requires some change, and requires you to experiment and sort of like, and to grow, that anybody who's not along for that journey with you, you need to just jettison out of your life. Just, you know, like, they're no longer your friends, like, sorry mom, sorry dad, sorry uncle, sorry, like, partner in life and in business, sorry kids, sorry best friends. You're like, if you

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  don't buy into this journey that I'm going down, that's on you. Don't hold me back. And,

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  you know, so let's, let's, let's sort of talk reality here.

• 1:12:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's a pretty narcissistic thing, first of all.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so, so there's that.

• 1:12:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Right? But then beyond it, just like from a practical standpoint, if you're telling people that, you know, then you're setting them up to eviscerate a potential support system, to, you know, like, completely, like, short circuit the potential to actually have a series of intelligent, articulate conversations with people that may end up having them become, like, real supporters and maybe even go on the journey with you. And there are for sure probably some people who are just, you know, completely, probably shouldn't be around as you continue to grow, and they have no interest in growing, or really they actually want to take you down. There, for sure, there are probably some people where not a bad idea to just sort of grow out of those relationships. But there are other people where, you know,

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  like, they're my close family, you know, your close family, your closest friends since you were six, you know, so what if they see the world differently? There are people in your life where, A, they may not buy into it because they really care about you and they think you're going through some stuff that may be massively destructive, or they may be threatened. It makes sense to have a conversation with those people and to really create a dialogue so you can understand what's going on, and if there's any way to actually, you know, like, have a conversation that sort of like allows for their forbearance, and then eventually support, and then eventually potentially joining along with you. Why would you not have that conversation?

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  Well, it requires a level of emotional maturity, first of all, and I think it speaks to self-sovereignty. Like, if you have a good sense of your path and your direction, and you have surrounded yourself with some form of community that supports you in that, yeah, and perhaps you have other people in your life that don't see the world that way. If you have a good sense of boundaries and self-sovereignty, you can coexist with those people without it, you know, detracting you from your past. So it's about how much control and power are you giving to somebody else? Like, if they don't have that emotional or electrical charge with you, you can be in the same room and have a conversation with them. But if you don't, it's more about the work that you need to do to be able to do that, right?

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  I mean, if you think about your, thinking about your life almost like, you know, so sometimes I default to entrepreneurship because it's a world I know so well. And it's also, to me, it's just a stunning canvas for the development of the human being, right? So if you think about building a company, starting a company from nothing, and one of the questions you have to ask yourself is, who's the team? Who's my team that's going to build this with me?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  The thought of building a team where everybody just, like, has the identical worldview and the identical opinions from me, that is a disaster in waiting. And jettisoning everyone who doesn't see the world exactly the same way and doesn't agree with me. I want a diversity of opinions. I want a diversity of world. I want people who are open to the vision, who, like, understand what we're all working to create together. But I want difference. You know, like, we all benefit from difference in our lives. And if that means having intense, fierce, deep conversations that maybe move us off of plans because we shouldn't have been doing those things to start with, and there's a better, more intelligent way to grow and to get there, I want people who are going to actually be in my life, where I can have those conversations,

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  rather than just saying, "Oh, no, you need to go." I mean, it's lunacy. In the world of business and entrepreneurship, it's a disaster in waiting. So it's no different when you're trying to construct something awesome with the way that you live.

• 1:15:48Rich Roll?

  I think there's a nice allegory for that happening in, you know, culture right now, and particularly politics, as we sort of head into this election and we see ourselves quite divided and, and kind of decamping to our, you know, to our, our people that see the world the way that we see it. And that's just concerning to me that we're in this place where we can't, we can't have that kind of conversation.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It's a, yeah, it's a weird time in the United States. I'm sure you have a lot of international listeners too, and I sometimes wonder what they think of what, what's going on here also. But I mean, fundamentally, there's, there's a work of Robert Cialdini, who's sort of legendary in the world of influence and understanding how, how people make decisions. And 30 years ago, he came out with this book and one, he talked about something called the, the consistency principle. And fundamentally, what he said is that we are wired to feel a compulsion to, to say and act in a way that is consistent

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  with anything we've said or done before. So, and that's one of the reasons why we, when we get into a supercharged or a political environment like this, if somebody makes a statement that's completely outrageous, or just, they're just like sticking, you know, like a stake in the, the ground early on, they're wired from that moment on to want to continue to, to say things that support that and take actions that will support that an original thing. And the more you do that, the more deeply ingrained this pattern becomes. Even if at some point, you know, it becomes really crystal, crystal clear that this, you know, like the facts just aren't supporting a particular scenario, where literally we'll,

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  we will, it's not even that we ignore it, our brains won't see that at all.

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  Well, it's a threat to your very identity.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Rich Roll?

  When you start to become one and the same with that, with that notion, you know, that's something that I, you know, I, I think about that kind of stuff a lot because I'm like the, you know, the vegan athlete guy.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  It's like, well, you know, what if I woke up one day and just really felt terrible and felt like I needed to eat differently? What would that mean? Would that be a threat to, you know, how the world sees me, how I see myself? And, and, you know, it's, it's, it's important and it goes back to self-awareness, right?

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Rich Roll?

  You know, so, super interesting stuff.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  It is. We are weird beasts.

• 1:18:12Rich Roll?

  What are you, uh, what are you reading right now? Are you reading anything interesting?

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Um, what am I reading right now? I'm like looking over at my books, um.

• 1:18:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, the places you'll go, I see. Doctor Seuss.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  I have to tell you, I probably reread that every year.

• 1:18:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Um, it's funny, we, we would do these super high end, like training, like only like 10 month training programs for conscious entrepreneurs. And we'd give them a book list in the beginning. We actually would deliver a box of books, which were part of the curriculum. And of the places you'll go is actually mandatory reading.

• 1:18:44Rich Roll?

  That's great.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Because it, I mean, when you read it, you're like, this is an amazing guy. Like it just describes all of life and all of entrepreneurship and it's, it's so good. So yeah, it's like sitting on my bookshelf right there, right over like Steve Jobs biography. Um, actually a book that's sitting next to it, The Coaching Habit is, do you know Michael Bungay Stainer?

• 1:19:03Rich Roll?

  Uh-uh.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  I should totally talk to him. Um, he's an old friend of mine and he was, you know, years ago, he was known as like the leading coach in Canada or wherever it was. And he started a company called Box of Crayons and he's phenomenally funny, super smart and intuitive guy. He was a coach for a long time and now he's built a consulting company.

• 1:19:20Rich Roll?

  Like a business coach.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, um, but he basically, he realized that, um, a lot of coaching is really very straightforward and that they're essentially, according to him, there, there are seven questions that if you understand these seven questions to ask, why to ask them and sort of the order to ask them in, not just for coaches, but for partners in a relationship, for parents, for whoever it is, these seven questions are so stunningly effective at guiding really, really constructive and powerful conversations that lead to, to, to outcomes, like legitimate outcomes where people feel genuinely heard and felt and changed and empowered. And so, so he, he put those seven questions in this book.

• 1:20:05Rich Roll?

  What are, what are, like, what's an example of one of the questions you know of?

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  So I don't remember if this is the exact language, but one of them is, "And what else?" You know, so we tend to ask somebody, so I think maybe the first one is something like, "Tell me what's on your mind."

• 1:20:22Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Right, which it's, it's so simple, but it's actually, there's so much nuance under there, you know, like, we're not, you know, we're just like creating this open canvas for somebody to actually really say what's going on. Yeah, and one of the other ones was, "And what else?" So normally, we ask a question, somebody gives an answer, we're like, "Okay, cool, let's get to this, let's solve the problem now."

• 1:20:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Right? And he's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." Like, that first thing, that's, that's the surface stuff that you kind of need to clear out first.

• 1:20:50Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  You know, and you keep asking, so like, "And what else?"

• 1:20:53Rich Roll?

  Getting the layers.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Right, "And what else? And what else? And what else?" Until you're like, "Oh, that's what's really going on here."

• 1:21:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  And we never ask that.

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  That reminds me of, Ira Glass always says this, one of his favorite questions in an interview, Ira Glass being of This American Life, you know, amazing interviewer. He'll say, "What do you make of that?"

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  When he's interviewing somebody, you know, which is so open-ended.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 1:21:19Rich Roll?

  But it's an open template.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  I'm gonna have to start using that.

• 1:21:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. "Oh, what do you make of that?" Right?

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I, one of the things that I've actually gotten to the head of saying is, "Tell me more about."

• 1:21:30Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Because I'm just kind of like, I just want to know more, but I don't want to define the parameters. I want to see, like, what is somebody gonna feel is important enough to tell me more about? Like, I want them to decide that.

• 1:21:41Rich Roll?

  What has your podcast journey meant to you? Like, you've been doing it, you know, it started out as a video series, and then, you know, you've gone to, gone to basically just audio, but you've been doing it for a while, and you've had the good fortune of interviewing, like, incredible people.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's been amazing.

• 1:21:56Rich Roll?

  I mean, you're very gifted at it, you know, I love the show, and I always get so much out of it, but I'm interested in what it means to you.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Thank you. And, and by the way, the same thing back your way. You know, the, it's been amazing just being able to listen to some of the conversations that you've been able to create. For me... Probably two things. One is, I think I used the phrase embodied teachers earlier, maybe not, but what I'm fundamentally looking for is I'm on a learning quest. I want to learn. You know, I'm beginner's mind always, student always. No matter how much I know, I always consider myself a student. So I'm constantly on the hunt for embodied teachers, people who don't just write about and talk about ideas, but people who live it. People where I can actually look at the way that they're living their lives and say, "Oh, like, there's something about that that I want to learn what's underneath that."

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  You know, "I want to learn how that happened. I want to learn how this person is in the world this way." And I'm constantly trying to get as close to the source as humanly possible. So, you know, it was interesting when I was in the yoga world, and there are bazillion workshops that you could take. And one of my criteria was always, how close was the person who's teaching this, how close were they to the originator of the idea, or the style of the approach, or whatever it is? Because I want to get as close to the source as possible. So part of it is, for me, it's this amazing learning quest to just find embodied teachers and sit down with them and ask them questions, you know, and just say like, "Ah, that's where this is coming from." And then, part of it is,

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  so there are three things, maybe. So that's one. Part of it is, as I get to turn around, like I said, I love to teach, or at least be in some sort of, you know, create something that has some sort of teaching value to it. So, we recorded, we started video, and now we do audio, and we release this into the world. And I don't know about you, I'm curious whether you've got this, but, you know, I've been in business a long time. I've created companies, I've done all sorts of different things, I've taught a lot of different things. I've written a lot. There's, I have not done anything that's gotten the level of response that this has given me. Have you, have you-

• 1:24:05Rich Roll?

  Without a doubt. It's crazy.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Rich Roll?

  It is ins- I mean, I started it with very low expectations of it being anything. And of course, I'm very proud of the books that I've written and all of that, but this is a very different thing. And it connects with people and resonates with people in a way I would have never imagined.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 1:24:25Rich Roll?

  It's just like, being in New York, like, I walk down the street and people are like, "Oh, Rich Roll Pot." I'm like, "What?" You know, it's like, it's audio. They don't, you know, like, why do you even know who I am? It's, and I think the thing for me is- Is that um, the most gratifying thing, I mean, beyond the fact that like it's, you know, the greatest scam in the world to be able to convince amazing people to sit down with you.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:24:47Rich Roll?

  And talk to you.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  It's like, I have a podcast.

• 1:24:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. And, and getting to share that with people, but then interacting with people who have been really, not just positively impacted, but like profoundly impacted. Like, I'm sure you get incredible emails from people. And they tell you very intimate details about their life and how their life has changed.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:07Rich Roll?

  That is, you know,

• 1:25:10Rich Roll?

  that is, you know, I, I can't think of anything, you know, more gratifying for me, you know, to do in my life. And in terms of like, you know, the, the contribution bucket, like mine is very full as a result of, of doing this show. And it, it feeds me and to know that it is, um, you know, providing that kind of value, uh, you know, to people I've never met is just, it's an extraordinary thing. And I'm sure you've experienced that daily.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Same thing. And it's, it's just amazing. Um, so that was the second thing. The third thing is it's just fun.

• 1:25:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  It's just straight up fun. I mean, you and I, we're hanging out right now. So, um, we're in my living room.

• 1:25:44Rich Roll?

  We're working.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  Right. You know, we've got like, I had an excuse to go and buy some really awesome audio equipment. So gear, hashtag yay. Right. And we're hanging out in my living room and this is, yeah, this is our jobs and just having a really enjoyable time. I mean,

• 1:26:01Rich Roll?

  And the thing is like, if we'd gone out to lunch, like it would have been good, but like, like we're, I, I know that I'm going to walk away from this conversation and I'm not going to forget it. And I'm like, we, we just had this really cool experience.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:26:12Rich Roll?

  On a very personal level, there's that as well.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's given me a lot. And then the interesting thing is like, then we go from here. And it's like you said, you'll walk down the street and, and people will, will like see you and say, oh, Rich. Um, you know, we hold these events and stuff like that. And it's, it's like when I step, I mean, when I step into one of those experiences, it's like there's a, a level of knowing and relationship where you kind of like, everyone just runs up and hugs.

• 1:26:40Rich Roll?

  They know you already. There's no introductory period.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Rich Roll?

  But there's also a projection onto you.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, true.

• 1:26:48Rich Roll?

  And an expectation like, okay, this is the guy, right? Like, so, and you're meeting these people for the first time. So how do you like weather, navigate that?

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm an introvert, um, too, which is always interesting. Um,

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  I I know myself well enough now to sort of understand how to set my own boundaries, when to lean in and when to step out socially. And also, um, probably I'm constantly sensing for assumptions about who I am and a level of connection that I might feel in any way is is off. It's very rare that stuff like that happens. We've been so blessed. I mean, our community, we have an astonishing community. Um, you know, like camp, we have 375, probably more than that, actually, people coming in literally from all over the world to to live communally.

• 1:27:43Rich Roll?

  375, wow. I didn't realize it was that big. So where is the summer camp?

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  This is, we rent at like a kids sleepaway camp 90 minutes north of New York City. And, um, and it's 130 acres, 160 acres, something like that. You know, it's like you see in the movies, this beautiful, a super awesome thing. And and people are living in bunks. And so it's intense.

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  Three days?

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, three and a half days.

• 1:28:05Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So what's the program?

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  So it's this, so it's everything. It's all the fun activities of like a kids sleepaway camp. So it's like bonfire and, you know, like, um, talent show and color games and like, you know, arts and crafts and all like, all the like stuff, right?

• 1:28:24Rich Roll?

  Except grownups are.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Right. And and and then, um, but also we're, and then we work in all sorts of really cool workshops and programs around entrepreneurship and making and things like that. So, um, and just sort of like living a good life, um, whether it's positive psychology to bookbinding to branding to all sorts of different stuff and like a full range of health and fitness and like morning activities and yoga and all this other stuff. Um, but one of the big parts of it, too, is just doing nothing. You know, it's being transported out into a natural environment, like withdraw yourself from your everyday environment, drop yourself into this sort of like beautiful place in the middle of the woods, surround yourself with with a decent number of people. And

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  what's what blows us away is that we figured, eh, most of the people would be from the Northeast or New York. Very few people are. We have people getting on planes, trains, and automobiles from the other side of the world, all over Europe, Australia, Asia, South America, Central America, Africa. It's unbelievable. So it's a really international community that all comes together and plays and it's this amazing sort of like cultural exchange. And and but we set it's like we create the container, we create the ethos, there's a share sense of shared values. So very often, even though there's a ton to learn about business and contribution, we kind of like focus on the three buckets. There's programming for each of the three. It is entirely possible to spend the entire

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  time there, like like having amazingly deep conversations with a small group of people the whole time and never having any clue what they do for a living. Because often it just doesn't go there, you know, and because I'm an introvert and I'm also sensitive to people's sensitivities, we also we create all sorts of ways for people to move into it gently. But at the same time, make sure that you know that because a lot of people come alone that you're welcome from the moment that you show up. So we like crazy things like the first night we've done, we call people bingo. So we'll have a bingo card, but instead of having, you know, like numbers and dots, it'll be like 25 boxes. Like, find somebody who speaks Italian, find somebody who's read two books in the

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  last like two months. So we're like Forcing interaction. Yeah, we're giving you an excuse to just walk up to random people and say hello. And there's something about just the shared the ethos of our community where it's the most like BS facade free, just cool.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  Uh, community people, it's just.

• 1:30:59Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the vibration that you're putting out. So you're going to attract, you know, people that are, you know, attracted to the kind of message that you're putting. I'm not surprised that, you know, that's the caliber and the quality of the person that's, that's going to show up for your camp.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  They're amazing people.

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  How many years have you been doing it?

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  This will be the third year.

• 1:31:14Rich Roll?

  Third year, yeah. And do you have like, uh, like other like people that are experts in different fields come in? Or do you just have a team you do?

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  No, we have like a big faculty, yeah, that comes in and does all sorts of stuff. So, yeah, just as people fly in to be campers, you know, people flying from all over the place to teach and to be a part of it. Uh, and, and we draw everything from, I have people, we have people on our team that were, um, that I trained as yoga teachers, like back in the day when I actually owned a studio and was teaching yoga to, um, one of my buddies from high school ended up being the, um, running his own sort of like DJ company and being like the sort of big local radio DJ in Woodstock, New York, which is like 20 minutes from where we do this. And so like whole come over and, you know, spin record, you know, like one night and just hang out. It's like, you know,

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  we're playing frisbee, um, in the middle of the field. And it's like, wait a minute, you know, like we're both 50 and, but it's literally, it's like, we're 17 years old.

• 1:32:12Rich Roll?

  Did you go to summer camp when you were a kid?

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 1:32:14Rich Roll?

  Or so this is all about like you recapturing this thing that you didn't get when you were a kid. Yeah. Now I'm getting a very clear picture of this. Yeah. That's beautiful, man.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:32:25Rich Roll?

  I love it.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  It's amazing. And, and I, I mean, I mean, I can't, I can't talk about without also talking about my wife, Stephanie, because she really runs camp and she's, she's my partner in business, my partner in life, and so much of Good Life Project, everything having to do with it flows from who she is as a human being, just like radiating, you know, like kindness.

• 1:32:44Rich Roll?

  And she's full, like full-time works with you now, right? Like, and that's, that's a relatively new development.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  It is. The last two years or so.

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so how is that? I mean, because I work with my wife too. Like how, how do you, how do you, you know, what are the pros and cons of that? And how, how do you deal with stuff that comes up around that?

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, we're really fortunate in that, uh, we love to be around each other. Um, we have. Pretty different skill sets. Um, and they're two different skill sets and they're, they're all really needed. So we started working out together, at least in this business where we were doing a lot of events and retreats and programs. And she's amazing at actually coordinating on the ground experiences and delivering just like astonishing levels of detail and delight and creating these um, levels of touch that are incredible. Um, and so we just started doing it more and more very organically. It wasn't a plan like, okay, now is the time we will start working together. So we just started doing that more and more because I'm, I'm more wired to um, you know, like create content and media and experiences and do the front forward facing stuff and

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  the branding and speak and things like that. And um, and even though we work, we have very different modes of work. Um, they still complement each other and, and the, the things that we do are very different and they complement each other. So it just happens to work really well with us. The, the challenge is probably that we both really enjoy working with each other. We're both somewhat maniacal about if we're going to do something, we're going to do it at the highest possible level and we want to set the bar for whatever it is that we're doing. And um, so that can lead to scenarios where we're working a lot.

• 1:34:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're not, you don't know, there's no off switch.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:23Rich Roll?

  That's the biggest thing.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you find that also Julie?

• 1:34:26Rich Roll?

  Well, it's very similar in that we, you know, Julie and I have very different skill sets like, and, and I'm very similar to you, like the speaking and the writing and the content creation is like kind of where I excel and she's, she knows how to produce, you know, a big event or a thing like, like she can get a macro vision and she can multitask and I tend to like, you know, be able to just do one thing at one time. So all of that works really well, but it is like, when we go out, you know, if we're going out to dinner, it's like, okay, is this a date or a business meeting? Like, what are we doing? And, and like trying to have some, you know, intention, you know, behind what that is becomes, you know, something that you have to be paying attention to.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that, that, that I think is the, the one big thing is that it's just because you really enjoy what you're doing and who you're doing it with, you know, doesn't mean you can't actually have too much of that too. You know, so, so sometimes we just have to kind of say like, okay, let's step away from this a bit.

• 1:35:16Rich Roll?

  Well, on the maniacal attention to detail, you know, I'm gonna blow some smoke up your ass. I will say this, you know, you're, everything from how you laid out your websites to, you know, the content that you create is always, you know, is and always has been of like a super high caliber, and I've always appreciated that. And I think, you know, we're in this world where there's a lot of, you know, uh, sort of, charlatans is the wrong word, but there's a lot of, you know, people in this kind of self-help space, and, you know, the internet has allowed, you know, created an amazing mechanism and vehicle for people to be helpful and to create communities, and all of that is an amazing thing. But, um,

• 1:35:58Rich Roll?

  it's, sometimes it's difficult to figure out, um, you know, separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, especially when there's kind of a culture of sales funnels and, you know, email lists and, and, you know, webinar, all this, it's very easy to get lost in all of that. And I feel like you're somebody, I've always been attracted to you because I feel like you've figured out how to really maintain a level of honesty and integrity um, in, in what you do. And it, and it's not lost on me, like, I'm very aware of those conscious decisions that you've made around that.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Thank you. I appreciate that. And, um, and same thing back your way also. I look at everything that you do, and I'm like, wow, this is beautifully executed, and it's really compelling, and, but at the same time, it just feels real. It feels like, uh, there's actually, like, I can feel the human beings behind it. Um, yeah, and to us, you know, it's interesting, something happened, actually, the genesis, one of the genesis of, of Good Life Project was that, at the end of 2011, I started writing a blog post. Um, and it was supposed to be my year in review, which I would do every year as a blogger. Turned into this 40-page, like Warren Buffett-style-designed annual report. And, um,

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  And in there, I teased at the end, this thing called Good Life Project, and I didn't really know what it was gonna be, or if it was gonna be at the end. But I sort of shared these ideals, and I spent a lot of time and energy designing this and really writing something. And the response to that was tremendous. It got shared all over the place, and then these Ten Commandments of Business, Conscious Business got shared. It kind of woke me up to the fact that the number of years before that, I hadn't been operating on the level that I was capable of operating. You know, creating something beautiful, really going deep and investing my time, and not just kind of like making it good enough, but actually saying, "No, I want to create something that's really good." It reminded me of what I'm capable of doing. It reminded me of the joy of not just shipping,

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  but actually, like, you know, it's important to get your stuff out into the world, but really, trying to do something exceptional. You know, like, if you're gonna do it, just like, do the hell out of it.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  And it brought me back. And when I saw the response, and I remembered that I had that in me, I was kind of like, you know what? I don't want to do anything, again, that doesn't rise to this level. You know, I want to serve on this level. I want to delight on this level. I want to solve on this level, and I want to create on this level. And so, I, and granted, I drift away from that sometimes. You know, sometimes I get distracted. I'm kind of like, "Oh, it's good enough." And then I try, but I try and catch myself and be like, "No, that's not what I'm here to do." Like, "Good enough" is not what I'm here to deliver.

• 1:38:40Rich Roll?

  I think that's a beautiful place to wrap it up.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Rich Roll?

  But I can't let, I can't let you go without maybe imparting a last, you know, word of wisdom to, you know, somebody who's out there, who perhaps is feeling stuck in their life. Maybe they're looking for the eject button out of their cubicle, or whatever it is, and just can't figure out that first step. You know, what would you suggest is, you know, an initial action that somebody could take that's, that's simple, that's digestible, that could perhaps shift their energy and start them, you know, reconfiguring their trajectory?

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  That's a really good question. A lot of directions I could go with that. I want to keep it simple.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  I would, so to me, there's a precursor to action, especially when it comes to career and on the contribution side of that, and that's always self-knowledge, self-discovery. So thinking of a single question you could ask yourself to start to know, get to know yourself better. And it's really, it's a question, it's asking yourself, what's important to me? You know, and take out a page of, piece of paper and just free write. There's no right or wrong answer. Define important however you want to define it, but just on the top of the piece of paper, write down what's important to me. And just start to, like whatever pours through your mind, don't do it for anyone else to see.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Assume nobody will ever see this actually, and just start to free write and see what comes up. And you may surprise yourself, you may laugh, you may cry, you may get back in touch with something that you thought you had lost in a long time. That's the seed. That's the seed, you know, because that guides what the next action will be.

• 1:40:26Rich Roll?

  I think that's, that's beautiful advice, and that's advice that I've taken in my own life. And I would, I think I would just add to that, that, you know, you might have to write for a little bit before you can crack your core and get into whatever is really going on. And if you can't think of anything to write, then write, "I can't believe I'm writing this and I hate writing this journal," until, you know, an honest thought comes up that might, you know, spark some insight that could then shift your energy.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes it takes a little time.

• 1:40:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, or a couple of days, or a couple of weeks, or whatever, but start with that first sentence.

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 1:41:01Rich Roll?

  Thanks so much, Ben.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:41:03Rich Roll?

  I'm, I'm, I'm so psyched and happy for all your success. It's well deserved. You're a beautiful guy with a great message, and you're impacting lives in a, in a really tangible and profound way. And I wish you only the best and wind in your sails, my friend.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:41:18Rich Roll?

  So the book is How to Live a Good Life. It comes out October 18th, right?

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:23Rich Roll?

  When do you want me to post this?

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 1:41:25Rich Roll?

  It's August now.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:41:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Actually,

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  I can post it on, I post every Monday, so we can figure it out whenever you want.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the Monday before would be awesome because we have some like super cool preorder stuff where like we partner with a tree, a tree planting foundation. Actually, we're planting a tree for every book preorder.

• 1:41:45Rich Roll?

  That is the best preorder incentive I've ever heard. That's phenomenal.

• 1:41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'm like, you know what, let's just, let's do something that's not just good for us. Let's, well, let's do something that like actually makes a difference on a bigger scale.

• 1:41:57Rich Roll?

  That's really cool.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sorry.

• 1:41:59Rich Roll?

  Well, best of success. Have a great time at camp.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:42:02Rich Roll?

  All right. Peace. Plants.

• 1:42:07Rich Roll?

  What a delightful gem that Jonathan Fields is. I really appreciated his openness, his candor, his vulnerability and his contemplative nature throughout the course of this conversation. It was really great. I hope you guys got a lot out of it. Please make a point of picking up his new book, How to Live a Good Life. You can do that by clicking through the Amazon banner ad at ritual.com. I would also suggest checking out his podcast, Good Life Project. You can find that on iTunes. And also, it began as a video series, so you should check out the Good Life Project YouTube page. Some of those videos are really cool. I actually was fortunate enough to do an interview with Jonathan on video back in the day, and you can find that there as well. As always, please make a point of checking out the show notes

• 1:42:51Rich Roll?

  on the episode page at ritual.com. We've got tons of links and resources and tools where you can do a deep dive on Jonathan and Good Life Project and learn a lot more about him and who he is and what makes him tick. So check that out. And thank you so much for sharing the show with your friends and with your colleagues around the water cooler and on social media. I appreciate it. Thank you for leaving a review on iTunes and also for subscribing on iTunes. If you have not subscribed to this show on iTunes, what are you waiting for? It's one click away. It really does help us out a lot. And again, I appreciate everybody who has made a habit and a practice of using the Amazon banner ad on my site at ritual.com. It really does help us out a lot. It doesn't cost you

• 1:43:33Rich Roll?

  guys any cent extra. It's just Amazon kicks us some affiliate change and that really allows us to do what we do here and... It does not go unnoticed. If you want to contribute even further, we now have a Patreon page. You can find a banner for that right next to the Amazon banner ad on my site. Also, have you subscribed to my weekly newsletter? It's called Roll Call. It's a free, short, weekly rundown of just a few tips and tools and resources, things I've enjoyed over the course of the week, five or six quick things. It's really short, no spam. I don't share any of this info on my blog or anywhere else, so if you want in on it, you have to subscribe. And I'm never going to spam you. It's no big deal. You can subscribe. There's tons

• 1:44:18Rich Roll?

  of places on my website where you can fill in your email address and all that kind of stuff. For all your Plant Power merch and schwag needs, go to richroll.com. We've got signed copies of Finding Ultra, of The Plant Power Way. We've got Plant Power t-shirts. We've got Tech Tees. We've got all kinds of sweet schwag and merch. Mad love to Jason Camiolo for his audio engineering wizardry and production on the show. Sean Patterson, who does all the graphics and makes it all look super pretty and cool. Chris Swan for production assistance and for help compiling the show notes. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. Thanks for the support. Keep sharing the show with your friends. I love you, and I will see you soon. Peace. Plants.