Inside Dutch Intel & the Fight Against Russia | Tim Bosch | Ep. 374

Tim Bosch is the former Deputy Director of Operations for the Dutch Intelligence Service, where he served for 21 years. His extensive career journey included a shift from working in the agency's technical department to becoming a case officer, eventually rising to a top executive position. The interview explores his unique path, from his early life and military service to his current work advising on security sector reform and geopolitical issues with his company, the Bird Watcher Group. https://www.birdwatchergroup.com/ Today's Sponsors TrueWerk ⬇️ https://truewerk.com/house use code "HOUSE" for 15% off! For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 01:01 The Origin Story: Early Life 07:02 Transition to Intelligence Services 10:26 History of Dutch Intelligence 25:20 Intelligence Officer Training 31:07 Shift from Tech to Case Officer 39:29 First Overseas Assignment 42:53 Breaking Up Terror Plots 54:00 Transition to Management/Deputy Director 1:02:11 Retirement and Founding a Company 1:18:59 Top European Intelligence Agency Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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  The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 1:42Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. I'm Jack, here with our guest host, Jason. Our guest on tonight's show is Tim Bosch. He retired as the Deputy Director of Operations at the Dutch Intelligence Service. We're really grateful to have you on the show and for you to provide us with some unique insights into your part of the world.

• 2:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, hi. Very nice meeting you and thanks for having me.

• 2:09Jack Murphy?

  So, Tim, I kind of start off the show usually asking the person about their origin story. If you can tell us a little bit about growing up and how that sort of took you towards governmental service.

• 2:23Speaker 06

  Oh, that's a while ago, but what I remember. No, I think it was indeed an important part of being attracted to government work. I grew up in Amsterdam, it's like a little over fifty five years ago. And growing up in Amsterdam in the eighties was fun, lots of freedom. But at the same time, there were a lot of squad riots. A lot of people squatting houses and then the police reacting. And at a certain period, I remember when I went to kindergarten and then went to high school,

• 3:06Speaker 06

  that exactly at that same time, there were these riots in Amsterdam because the police were really fighting it and there was a lot of pushback and it became heavier and heavier. And at a certain time, there were even tanks rolling in the streets of Amsterdam. You really cannot imagine that, but it's, I remember a tram on fire. It was so heavy and, well, as a kid watching this is like, first is of course, my god, the whole town is burning. And at the same time, it's like, who are these people? What are they doing to this beautiful city that I grew up in? What is the anger? And I think that in a way already inspired me, but also fascinated me. So what are the motives of these people?

• 3:50Speaker 06

  What's going on that makes them so angry that they're burning down their own city? So that's growing up and then studied law in a very conservative, traditional student town. I also had a lot of fun. The only burning there was us setting things on fire, students. And then went into the military service. So that's in a nutshell, my Amsterdam and Leiden period.

• 4:20Jack Murphy?

  So I mean, I guess seeing your hometown burn explains going after a law degree. But how did the military service come into it?

• 4:31Speaker 06

  Well, it was a subscription at the time. I was, I think, the

• 4:33Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 4:34Speaker 06

  The latest one, so, um, everybody was trying to, to avoid it and maybe it was also always going against the current at the time, but when everybody wanted to avoid it, I, I thought, no, well, it's, um, for a year over a year, I stayed a little longer and uh, it's about sporting and about doing fun stuff and at the same time making a contribution to society. So I, I, I, I thought it was very good idea and I never regretted it, by the way, and specifically now in this day and age, it's still something that I um, um, dearly remember, um, but, um, uh, it was a subscription, so, um, I had to.

• 5:12Jack Murphy?

  Compulsory, uh, compulsatory.

• 5:16Speaker 07

  Uh, Tim, did, uh, growing up in the eighties in, in Europe, did the threat of the Soviet Union have any bearing on your childhood?

• 5:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's a good question because also there, um, well, my school was kind of on the left side of things, um, and, um, um, well, at least my father, my, my mother was, uh, um, quite a middle and, um, progressive liberal, but not to the extreme, but my father was a bit more on the conservative side of things and uh, I think in a way I listened to his ideas and I was influenced by them and he was a fierce Russian hater. He saw what communism did and what, what, what, what was neglected by everybody who said, oh, it's social, socialist, uh, free state and it's the highest performance of state that you can ever get and it's fantastic.

• 6:10Speaker 06

  Uh, there were a lot of sounds these days in, in, in Europe, also in, uh, specifically in Amsterdam, uh, and I was completely on the other side of things. So I was non-stop debating even with schoolmates and with, with, uh, friends about this issue and um, yeah, I, I never want to pretend that I was right, not at all because I, I missed a lot of things, but on this specific subject, I, um, I was a bit more fierce and, uh, uh, looking to, to the east as a kind of, um, uh, well, danger that we should not neglect.

• 6:42Jack Murphy?

  And I, I know we'll get into the history a little bit, but, um, before we move on, I want to ask you, you know, your compulsatory military service, what did you actually do while you were in the service?

• 6:53Speaker 06

  I hope that you were not going to ask it, but it was, um, uh, no, it was, it was a lot of fun. I went to the Air Force, um, but then I ended up in the, in the legal department. Um, so no.

• 7:06Jack Murphy?

  Because you're a degree.

• 7:07Speaker 06

  There were flying, but at, at the same time, it was, um, uh, going to court. Uh, a lot of, a lot of friends who immediately went to law firms and, um, uh, went into the basement to, to prepare herself for other lawyers. And, uh, at, at that time, because we were the last, we were also allowed to just plead in court. And that was fantastic because it gave a lot of experience in pleading and everything in court. Um, and at the same time, because they didn't really take us that seriously. So we had a lot of time to sport and to, to, to all these, uh, trips, uh, fly, um, um, overseas. Um, and I forget the moment that the F-16s were, um, uh, to tank.

• 7:48Speaker 06

  And then this big K D C ten was, uh, gassing, I would say that fueling the, uh, F-16s in air. That was a magnificent moment that, uh, I really thought, okay, this is a pretty cool, cool job to start with. Um, uh, so it was the Air Force.

• 8:04Jack Murphy?

  And as your year of military service winds down, what got you thinking about the intelligence services and kind of continuing your career, uh, in the government?

• 8:16Speaker 06

  I never realized that, but I, uh, the seed was planted in military service. Uh, also because I was in, um, uh, had to share the room with, um, a colleague officer who, um, worked for the police and for the military police for a long time. And he was assisting, um, the intelligence service at the time. And, uh, in the beginning, he never said anything, of course, about it. But then later on, he shared some stories and I was fascinated. By the way, he's, that's, I still remember that, that I think he was the first victim of the Afghanistan war because he was killed in action, um, by, uh, Malfunctioning helicopter in Afghanistan, so he was one of the first Dutch victims. Um, he was um, a great, great person.

• 9:02Speaker 06

  But he inspired me in, in, in, um, entering the world of espionage, although that only came like five years later because I had a start career in a normal uh, financial insurance conglomerate doing um, um, yeah, what kind of internet stuff, technical stuff, uh, project management, um, on, on payments on the internet, stuff like that. So the beginning was completely different and then at a certain point I thought, okay, that's it, I'm only helping people uh, that are complaining about um, uh, how to get richer and uh, it didn't um, inspire me, didn't motivate me, um, the, the whole environment. Uh, it was good to learn something as a, as a, as a young adult, but

• 9:44Speaker 06

  um, at, at certain point it was enough for me and I thought, okay, I'm now going to, to look for something that really contrib- contributes to society and then uh, the, the, I, I crossed path with, with somebody who worked for the, uh, for the security service and uh, applied for a job there and the, well, rest is history, but that's, I think it's another podcast, but so.

• 10:05Jack Murphy?

  Uh, and the recruitment process really was like that, that, did you have to know somebody who was already in to get introduced at that time?

• 10:15Speaker 06

  Then yes, then absolutely, um. It was even worse, well, not worse, uh, depends on your view of course, but um, because the service came out of the resistance in the Second World War, um, uh, uh, they were not trusting anyone, so um, a lot of relative and, and, and uh, from a certain um, more Protestant um, religious circles. These were the people that were um, asked to apply and to, to, um, to join the service. But it was very mu- You never should talk about a colleague that you weren't sure if it wasn't connected in a family relationship or whatever. So many times you said, "Oh, that person, oh, no, that, he really doesn't do a good

• 10:58Speaker 06

  job," or she, and then it ends up being family of the person you, you, you, you spoke with. So it was completely in crowd all the time. So, yes, at that time, for sure, if you knew somebody, and then it helped that this was a person with some, some influence there, and he said, "Okay, yeah, well, if you want to join, I'll, I'll, I'll introduce you to some people and let's make it work." And then, then it went quickly, after a year of waiting, vetting, and, so, relatively quickly.

• 11:29Jack Murphy?

  And so, before we go a little bit deeper into your training with the intelligence service, I'd like to step back for just a moment to talk about the history of the Dutch intelligence services and sort of the historical and geopolitical factors that have shaped your country's approach to this.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it's, it, it, almost at the same time that it's, that the US OSS was founded, the, the first kind of organization out of the resistance was formed to go after the Nazis and the war criminals. And then it was reshaped in kind of a new organization also responsible for, for, for security and, and then the, the, the Dutch Internal, and at that time it was only Internal, they call it Beve De, that's sense for the Internal Security Service, only for, for,

• 12:28Speaker 06

  for the Netherlands itself, was founded. And, and the main task, main task remained counter espionage and later on, of course, specifically just before nine eleven, the whole counterterrorism and Islamic terrorism came into, to focus as well. But, that's, of course, with, with big steps through history, but foreign intelligence was never really part of it. On the, in, in...

• 13:00Speaker 06

  nineteen nineties, beginning of two thousand, then there was a project also to have a foreign intelligence service, um, our military intelligence service, so we have two big services here in the Netherlands, the military intelligence security service and, well, the military intelligence service and the Dutch one, the general intelligence security service. Um, the military, they had their own foreign uh intelligence task and so they had operations all over the world, but with a military focus. Uh, they they took that very broad, everything that was related to governments was also a potential um uh threat to the forces, so um, they had much more history in the foreign intelligence uh side.

• 13:43Speaker 06

  And um in the late nineties then, the uh general, the civil intelligence security service also uh were focusing on on foreign intelligence. Um, and only in two thousand four, if I remember correctly, then um it was incorporated in the uh the old domestic service and then it became the general intelligence and security service. So, um, now for some time, uh, it has two phases, so the external, like your CIA, um, and the internal only without the the the legal provisions that the FBI has has, but with this with the domestic uh task.

• 14:23Speaker 06

  Advantage, of course, that they can swap face very um um and focus very easily, so the times that there was a um terror threat in the Netherlands, it was more easy to move people to to this threat um um and to put some other subjects on a on a little bit lower stove. Um, um, but it has advantages and disadvantages, but that's in a in a nutshell, the the history of the uh the services. Now, by the way, a lot of things are combined, so together with the military service, so if you're talking about the big threats of today, uh, that's on, for example, um theoretically, Russia, China and some other subjects.

• 15:04Speaker 06

  More and more of these subjects are uh approached in a in a combined way and I I think that's a very good thing.

• 15:12Jack Murphy?

  And was it, I'm just curious of sort of what was the impetus, impotence to create foreign intelligence or make it more of a priority in the civilian intelligence agency? Was it that the war on terror happened and the Dutch became part of the international coalition? Was that sort of the start of it?

• 15:30Speaker 06

  Um, well, for a while, and I almost forgot to mention that, for a while we had a separate intelligence, foreign intelligence service. But with a couple of scandals and even the, the, the Brits, yes, there we have them mingling in our two affairs, it became a scandal too much and the prime minister stopped it. I think that was 1997 or something. So then the official foreign intelligence service that was completely standalone and separate was, was stopped. And because of all the scandals that, that they were involved in, for a longer time,

• 16:15Speaker 06

  nobody dared to touch it anymore. But I think generally indeed, the, the, the, the end of the Cold War, everybody thought, but then with new threats, so it's more or less around the time of indeed the war on terror, the subject got more importance and definitely after 9/11, for sure, then, then it was quickly decided to, not only to step into the, the allied forces, let's say, to, to, to seek for partnerships and to combine forces, but also to focus more on foreign intelligence. At the end, it's, it's some, when the streets of Raka decided also certain neighborhoods in the Netherlands, how to respond to certain calls and to, to Islamic vandalism.

• 17:00Speaker 06

  So it was, it was all connected. So it was a good thing that it, it came into existence again.

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• 20:33Jack Murphy?

  And I do have one sort of bureaucratic question to ask that a lot of people will probably find boring. But I've been reading this book that just came out called Covert Action that looks at maybe 20 different countries and how each country approaches this in their own way. And I'm just kind of curious to ask, you know, as that book asks, some countries like America have covert action codified into their law. Some countries even have it in their constitution. But then there are countries like Britain where it seems like it's much more about norms rather than anything that's actually written down. I was wondering what the case is in your country.

• 21:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think the Brits have, they have indeed a different code and a different, um, different form of, uh, of, of making laws and, and, and not writing things down. Um, I think that gave them fantastic, uh, opportunities, but also a lot of governments fell over that issue. Um, now here we, we are more like the French, so our laws are derived from, um, from, from, in a way, Bonaparte, the, uh, another, uh, little emperor, I mean, big in, um, dreams, but he wasn't, but anyway. Um, he, um, uh, and so our code civil, so our, our, a lot of our laws are derived from the French system. So we write everything down, so we have a law on intelligence as well.

• 21:57Speaker 06

  And so, um, it's, it says, it gives a mandate, it gives, um, so when people are hush, hush, what, what, what can services do? Um, the, the communication manager and the, the, um, um, PR people always had, quite simple to explain. Just look at the law, because it's all written down there, what services can do. And so with the latest version, there's even now an article, um, that gives the, um, services, so it's both military, um, as, as the General Intelligence Security Service, uh, described that they also have the authority to act, um, and to, um, uh, of course, with, with the idea that you sometimes have to act to stop something, so it's not about, um, um, just

• 22:41Speaker 06

  running around killing people and, and point to that article in the law and say, hey, yeah, it's, it's law, I'm the law. Um, but it's to give opportunities to a service, to, uh, and, and a mandate to, for example, if you're under cyber attack, that you want to destroy a certain infrastructure, you're allowed to do so by law. Um, and, um, uh, of course, there's a lot of mystique and reasoning behind it, because, um, in, in a way, it, the law is also written that if agents of the service are tested, um, the, uh, let's call them the bad guys, can never really test a person, because, um,

• 23:20Speaker 06

  by law, these people also are allowed to, um, uh, uh, pursue, how you say that, um, to, um, have it, make illegal deeds, so to, to, um, to, to also in a way break the law, so they're allowed by law to do that, so. Criminal actors or adversaries, if they want to test an agent, they don't know what the limit is of that law. So, yes, the law is very precise and very broad and gives mandate to really act and in that way fight evil as well.

• 23:56Jack Murphy?

  And does the intelligence service report directly to the PM or the PM's office? Or is there a parliament that you also have to answer to ultimately?

• 24:09Speaker 06

  So, just a funny, trivial thing is that he's now not anymore the Prime Minister, but he's the missionary because the cabinet fell. But he was a former Chief of Intelligence, so he was one of the heads of our service. So in a way, yes, there's this connection to the Prime Minister, but that's not the official line. So, no, because it was always a domestic service, the General Intelligence Service fell under the Minister of, let's call it, Internal, so the Home Affairs.

• 24:46Jack Murphy?

  Interior, yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 06

  Interior. And the military service is, of course, responding to the Ministry of Defence. But it's a bit more complicated because the tasks are generally formulated by the government and it's, that's kind of a secret operational directive whereby it's said, these are the subjects you need to tackle. And then it's divided which service is going to take upon which task. At the end, they all have to respond to this, that's called the National Security Committee. But if it's about warrant, if it's about wiretapping,

• 25:27Speaker 06

  if it's about, the real responsibility is in the Internal Ministry for the General Intelligence Security Service. And of course, the Prime Minister is very much involved and part of the Security Council, as we call it here in the Netherlands. So, yeah, there are a couple of lines, but there's only one strict chain of command to the Minister of Interior Affairs.

• 25:58Jack Murphy?

  You got anything, Jason, before we move on?

• 26:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, what would you say you're, in your opinion, I know you don't speak for your country, but your government, what would you say your intelligence services liaison relationship is like with US intelligence services?

• 26:16Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, also very intriguing questions because there's, we can read books about this history, specifically the last chapter is, that's part I'm no longer part of, unfortunately. I'm really asking myself every day, how is it right now because of all the changes in all the governments and of course also in administrations? In general, it's always been very good.

• 26:43Speaker 06

  Of course, there was, after the Second World War, this great feeling of gratitude of the liberation and the help, all the Marshall Plan and all the interaction at that time. I think a whole generation was building upon that, yeah, thankfulness and wanted to do something back.

• 27:13Speaker 06

  And so that, I think for a long time, there were a lot of believers in the transatlantic, in the transatlantic friendship and also standing on some giant shoulders makes you taller as well. Now, Dutch people are quite tall in general, but that was a magnificent feeling, if you're talking about cooperation, to be able to learn from very qualified and intelligent intelligence officers in the US. Of course, it had ups and downs. There's a rumor has it that at certain periods, of course, chief of stations were sent home,

• 27:57Speaker 06

  that would happen all over Europe, and things went on behind our back and sometimes it was necessary to call in people and say, okay, this is not how we treat friends or friends and friends. But in general, it was always a fantastic relationship and I can also say, no matter what kind of administration, so it was in a way apolitical, it was believing in the same. Causes, same mentality. Of course, a lot of these colleagues of CIA lived all over the world. So they had a kind of mundane and international view anyway. They knew a lot about cultures, difference in cultures.

• 28:42Speaker 06

  And so they were open minded already.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  So no, that in general and sometimes in particular, I have still have very good friends who served in the services there. There was this bond and believe in doing the right thing. So long answer for a short question.

• 29:08Jack Murphy?

  It was great.

• 29:09Speaker 06

  And it didn't really change. And I sometimes hear now, okay, now it's really testing the water and how does it work right now. But I think this mentality and still believing that you're working on, trying to prevent problems or to work on certain problems, that bond is still stronger than whatever political view you have. So I think we need a couple of administrations like now to widen, to really widen the gap in that way that there is no bond anymore. But that's my personal opinion. I was always a believer, by the way.

• 29:50Jack Murphy?

  So I'd like to jump into your training as an intelligence officer. Like, once you got recruited and they say, okay, you have the job or at least you're in the running for this job, what was the training process like?

• 30:05Speaker 06

  Well, of course, a lot of things that are not possible to explain because they're forbidden by law, but in general, I mean, there's so many books written about this

• 30:18Speaker 06

  even so many TV series made.

• 30:23Speaker 06

  So sometimes it's more boring than a fiction, but I have to say a lot of times it's much more fun and much more crazy than all the things that are written down and all the TV scenarios. In general, there are parts that you do domestically, there are parts that you do internationally. I had the privilege of working with, also my training with a couple of foreign intelligence services.

• 30:52Speaker 06

  And so they're ones who have a very militaristic approach and they're the ones who just throw you in the water and say, "Okay, you're on your own, good luck."

• 31:05Speaker 06

  I had the, really the privilege of working with some very old, very respected people in our, not old as in, as fossils, but as in, everybody looked up against them. And I had a couple of them and learned a lot from them, they were my mentors. And even after the training period, through the first approaches, the first, when you really try to recruit somebody, they were always there, tried to assist you if it was necessary.

• 31:42Speaker 06

  But the training was, I mean, again, coming out of the financial world, it was like, "Oh my God, this is fantastic, this is even better than I ever hoped for." So much fun and so much self-confrontation. I mean, even if you're arrogant, young, cocky guy, then being confronted with all your flaws and how difficult it is to really persuade somebody to do something that normally they don't want and how complicated the psychological techniques are

• 32:19Speaker 06

  and how much at that time I had to learn, that was, I think, the best insight ever. So, start all over again.

• 32:30Jack Murphy?

  Do you have a favorite story from your training that you're able to tell? Even, you don't have to say where it was or when, but...

• 32:40Speaker 06

  Um.

• 32:43Speaker 06

  Well, there's one moment that I'll never forget with an exercise, exercise somewhere whereby I had to. Um, um.

• 32:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's a fun story. I had to, uh, run into a certain establishment and, um, um, I think. The assignment was to get in there and, and one hour time to get as much out of one person as possible. Um, and, um, but that's exactly after one hour I had to leave again. So that was, if it was one minute late. Uh, you're out. So that's the end of it. Um, and, um, they, they told me which, which bar I had to be and, um. And I didn't really have a strategy. I just thought, okay, I run in there and see the first person that think that wants to make conversation.

• 33:36Speaker 06

  Uh, and of course I had suspicions that a lot of things could happen there, but I also thought, okay, um, I just wanna make conversation. Um, and I ended up, um, in the bar and I saw some tables, um, uh, with, with some. Girls sitting alone and some really pretty girls sitting alone and, um, but I also saw a man. Sitting on the bar reading a book and I, I don't, I blocked the girls and, um, decided to, to, uh, walk to the man with his book. Cause I thought, well, he's reading, so it must be easy to make a conversation with somebody who's reading just by asking. And, um, and I was lucky at the time because, um, uh, the, he was.

• 34:18Speaker 06

  Opening up completely, um, but he didn't, he was like telling me his whole life, everything and he became more animated, becoming more animated. And I did, what I didn't notice is that apparently the whole plan of the, the exercise failed because, um, uh, we were. Interrupted, sort of, by one of these ladies who even threw a glass half, half over him and, and disturbed and. And, and, uh, but she was apologetic and trying to, and he was like, no, no, go away. He wants to finish the conversation. And I was like. Go away, my target is sitting over there, so we were neglecting her as well. Um, and, but I think even after an hour, um, I tried to look at the watch, uh, and, and, and, uh, I said, okay, I have to, I, I used this bizarre excuse and I said, okay, I have to leave now.

• 35:04Speaker 06

  Uh, and he even wanted to join me to the next cafe and was like, okay, that's not, that's not how it's meant to be. And, uh, it all went fine, but afterwards I heard that, uh, basically the whole cafe was staged. Um, all the, uh, uh, ladies were part of the game, only the man wasn't, um, and I kind of ruined their whole, um, show. I couldn't believe that I just, the only one that wasn't their asset anyway. Um, it was, um, uh, it was beginner's luck, let's call it that way.

• 35:36Jack Murphy?

  And a- after your training, you went into, I believe, we talked about the tech side before you became a case officer?

• 35:45Speaker 06

  Well, I started on the technical department, yes. Um, um, and, uh, helping with policy of, uh, new technical measures and everything. It was, it was fun and, uh, worked together with police and with, um, also with the defense. Um, but I, indeed, I, I noticed that, of course, there's a kind of a hierarchy and a kind of, uh, informal hierarchy as well. And I, I noticed that, I, I loved it. I mean, it's, it's a fantastic place to work. Um, but I also noted that, um, uh, made to, a way to make career is not defined by just going to management or, or be an expert, uh, but it's also about collecting stories. It's about, uh, uh, collecting adventures and collecting, uh, and, and knowing the real trade craft.

• 36:29Speaker 06

  And then I indeed decided to, uh, to become a, uh, a case officer and, um, uh, and I knew I was taking some steps back as in, as if it's officially considered, but I thought, all right, if I want to stay here and I, at that time, I really want to stay there, I have to start all over again and learn real trade craft and, and start as a case officer. And, and that's indeed what I, um, um, then did. And then all the training and everything started and, uh, I, I never regretted that. As in, uh, the only thing I regretted that at a certain point I had to, um, I, I, I, I, I moved on, but, um, I could have done it much longer, more longer than I did at the time. I really loved it.

• 37:11Jack Murphy?

  And can you tell us about your first assignment?

• 37:18Speaker 06

  Oh, that's difficult to talk about, but in general,

• 37:24Speaker 06

  it was more, there was this other person that really inspired me and he advised me to, because at that time, everybody was doing something with terrorism, that was of course, well, in a way cynical, but cool place to be, because it was very important, it was a high threat. But he advised me if you want to start, start with a different kind of adversary. And that was in the Netherlands, very well-trained, long history, that was more in the extreme left and in the animal rights environment.

• 38:04Speaker 06

  And had some fantastic trainings also abroad, but that was a perfect learning school. So, not to straight away start, of course, I did my counter-terrorism share as well, but to start with the subject whereby people were so well-trained and so good organization, trying to beat the governments, that was a great learning school for me.

• 38:27Jack Murphy?

  When you say, like, there were activists, were they like arsonists, setting fires or something like that?

• 38:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, so the standard, well, standard, so, yeah, so, like, animal rights activists, who really burned down, there's this bizarre story, it's all out there, in the open sources, but there was this British group who was so fiercely against the testing lab, that they decided that they dug up the grandmother, if I remember this correctly, the grandmother who was buried of a family who was involved in this animal testing, and bone per bone, they sent her back by mail. So that was kind of the...

• 39:16Speaker 06

  But also the the the in a way threat because of course it's this was so heavy and

• 39:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 06

  bordering terrorism as well or even at that time it was defined as terrorism. So it was also an enemy that everybody was like, okay, this is um we we need to stop these people as well.

• 39:37Speaker 07

  Jack, can I just a quick question along the counterterrorism path. I'm always been fascinated with this. Along counterterrorism path, how did you how difficult or easy did you find it for? This is gonna sound weird, someone who looks like you to go, especially when it comes to Islamist terrorism, to work against an Islamist target, against someone who doesn't quite look like you, might be darker skinned. How easy or hard was that? Because I've asked that question against someone who was blond haired, blue eyed, and they never had issues with it, whereas some people did, but most people didn't. Did you find that difficult?

• 40:22Speaker 06

  It's a good question also to explain in in how our system works, but I think it's similar in the US. It's so the case officers are the one who are recruiting the people trying to infiltrate in certain gangs and serializations. Of course, you know, but just explaining it that indeed me infiltrating in a in a in a Jabata Nusa. Well, no way I could ever pull that up, but recruiting somebody here in the Netherlands, who well speaks my language, maybe sees me as um happen sometimes as kind of almost

• 41:01Speaker 06

  yeah, the visor on a or shrink or or kind of somebody meddling in their head or some. But also there to to help them and to to to to support them. That that that was much easier most of the time. And of course, sometimes people are unreachable, and we try many attempts in trying to recruit people that that failed. But speaking the language, understanding, of course, it's all about empathy and and trying to to understand what their needs are, what their fears are, and the people in general. So I'm not talking, of course, about anything that is secret in the Netherlands, but in general. People that were recruited had their own doubts. Their religion was abused or hijacked.

• 41:42Speaker 06

  And they were constantly wondering, so what is the right thing to do? Should I stand up? Or should I be part of it? And when somebody taps on the shoulder and say, hey, I know you're in doubt. And we wanna, we wanna help you in that doubt. But also in doing something about it. Because your religion is at stake and it's not fair. That, that, that did, that, that worked sometimes. Well, often. Luckily enough, more worked than didn't. So, and by the way, there are great anecdotes. There's a Danish guy who was like, he was, he didn't have this red beard and everything.

• 42:19Speaker 07

  In Yemen.

• 42:20Speaker 06

  Exactly, yeah. And he pulled this off. And so, well, I, I knew one thing, Suge, that growing a beard was not my, my, my thing. So, I, I couldn't have pulled off that stunt. But being a little bit redheaded or something sometimes helped in certain Syrian environments as well.

• 42:43Speaker 07

  And I appreciate that answer because a lot of people who have never worked in intelligence, they usually go by what they see on TV. And so they're seeing you and they're saying, how is that possible? And I usually will try to explain to them, it's usually not the intelligence officer who's going into these ethnic neighborhoods and working the target. They're recruiting people from these neighborhoods to go into, you know, back in and, you know, work these targets. So, I appreciate that, that explanation.

• 43:16Speaker 06

  No, you're completely right. It's, but then you're getting into the head of the people that, that do have their doubts and that are able to. And of course, with Catholic nuns, you, you cannot find, find, find the terrorists. So, you have to have kind of a people sitting on the fence. And also, of course, our colleagues, and I had some colleagues that were extremely convincing in, in almost being part of that environment already. So, we all had our specialties and our different tradecrafts and our ways of getting to recruit people. But you know, you need a, a, a variety of people to, to be able to recruit. That was, I think, the best way of describing it.

• 44:02Jack Murphy?

  What can you tell us about your first overseas assignment?

• 44:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, then I was sent to Jordan to work for the embassy and I became a liaison in the Levant, so working in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, specifically the northern part of Iraq, the Palestine areas, and also Egypt for a while. So that was an eye-opener. Fantastic to live in that part of the world. Cannot emphasize enough how warm and hospitable

• 44:49Speaker 06

  these people were, these people, the inhabitants, of course, of these countries, and the way they were always welcome to foreigners. And of course, in a very troubled, this was in 2000, well, during part of the Iraq War. So there was a lot going on, also work-wise. It was fascinating. So it was a mixture of discovering traditions.

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• 46:46Speaker 06

  Cultures and religions, of course. And at the same time, it was at that time also the, well, one of the fronts of where the things really mattered, where you could really contribute to help diminishing or in a way, fighting terror as well.

• 47:10Jack Murphy?

  So would you say your main focus then was on trying to identify groups that are plotting attacks back home in Holland?

• 47:20Speaker 06

  So it was a lot about liaising, about cooperating with all kinds of services. So that's the only reason I can say something about it because it would be a clandestine task. I couldn't say anything about it, obviously. But so working together, not only with the local governments, and you cannot emphasize enough what, for example, the Jordanian government did to fight terrorism in their own backyard and how many initiatives they came up with and trying to contribute to everybody's fear and everybody's terror. So it was specifically working with these kinds of governments and with these kinds of services.

• 48:03Speaker 06

  Another group of people that stole my heart were the Kurdish people.

• 48:12Speaker 06

  And so working with them in all their challenges and all the threats around them, that was another fascinating thing.

• 48:23Speaker 06

  And of course, yeah, also working with a lot of US personnel because they were all over the place and you couldn't... Run a mile without running into some kind of American outlet or military base or just a very nice way of having some drinks or one too many. Also had a lot of fun there.

• 48:51Jack Murphy?

  As I was reading up on the Dutch intelligence service, I was reading that it's kind of known, I guess, publicly to have broken up a number of terror plots that were being plotted, you know, against Holland. Are you able to speak to that at all?

• 49:10Speaker 06

  Well, there were some that were in the media and some ended up in court and there were a couple of famous ones whereby it succeeded in infiltrating these groups. And so the great thing in general of a smaller country as the Netherlands is it's also relatively easy to work with other kind of agencies. So on a couple of these cases, it's all about who, of course, the real intelligence work is about being in the places where it's really hidden, where the conspiracies take place. But what great advantage of the Dutch is that the police

• 49:55Speaker 06

  here in the Netherlands also has an intelligence task for the general intelligence security service. So that was one of the changes we had at a certain time is that the police had their intelligence system, but they also had a kind of a public order task. So they were also responsible for hooliganism. They were also responsible for radicalism. But it was always a kind of, so what are they doing now? Is this a police task or is it an intelligence task? Because obviously, they carried guns and they could switch hats quite easily. It was recommended that they split these tasks. And at that time, that was around 2012,

• 50:38Speaker 06

  these intelligence units of the police were formed and they were only working for the intelligence service. And it meant that they were paid by the police. They were sitting in the police districts, but were tasked by the general intelligence security service.

• 50:56Speaker 06

  And these people, they they saw the the police systems, they saw the, they talked with their police colleagues, they listened to the stories, what's going on in the streets of Amsterdam or or the Hague. So, the fact that they, because they were in the veins of of society and um uh came up with a lot of relevant um uh in- information, intelligence, um and and then they were able to um to to to come up with the first um leads and the first signals. Then the intelligence uh system could take over and when it was about the specialists who were infiltrating and then planting the microphones and everything. So then, for a longer time, the intelligence service took over, uh security service.

• 51:40Speaker 06

  And and then when it was really a threat and everybody said, okay, this is going the wrong way, we have to intervene. And there was always a choice, who who's going to do that. Um but most of the time, it was given back to, well, in cooperation with the police. And then their specialized uh uh so they could work undercover. They could basically swap it from an intelligence um uh view to to the to to the evidence view, whereby it could stand up in court and and they could provide the evidence um um in a in a in a legal way. So this flexibility from, for example, a couple of these cases went exactly that way, from starting with the police, signaling, and then the uh security service took over,

• 52:23Speaker 06

  and then swapping back to the police and and and ending up with fantastic arrests. There there, not all the movies that uh that we internally saw were publicized, but some of them were, and then and ended up in court. And um um there's one where they tried to to to to escape and uh you see the police coming from all the sides, what was the one of the best moments in in in in horror service, because that that rolled up a whole terrorist plot. And they were really caught in the act and on camera, trying to to uh exercise with weapons. And um, you know, I think from what they, apparently they uh hit up the wrong uh person that was apparently not completely part of their gang, but maybe part of our gang.

• 53:11Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so from your operational years, any, what are some of your favorite stories that you're able to share?

• 53:20Speaker 06

  That's the thing, there's not a lot of favorite stories, but that's so.

• 53:23Jack Murphy?

  I know, you have to be vague.

• 53:25Speaker 06

  That's always an issue. Sorry?

• 53:27Jack Murphy?

  I know you have to be a little vague.

• 53:34Speaker 06

  So there were

• 53:38Speaker 06

  joint operations whereby

• 53:45Speaker 06

  if you, what I always admired of the people I worked with, and I still admire the mentality with these people is that, of course, it can be a bureaucratic nightmare and a lot of red tape and a lot of meetings about not only strategy but also

• 54:08Speaker 06

  boring stuff, a lot of it. But when, when there's something going on and when people are needed and there's a real threat, the creativity and the, and the, and the, the mission focus and the, and the, all the egos are put aside and everybody just wants to be, we had to call people when there was an incident, most of the time not to come because everybody is already running to the office, trying to be part of the team and we said, okay, there are enough people now. So that, that mentality, that was fantastic. So, and a couple of operations, that's why I'm smiling a little bit, but I have to be

• 54:47Speaker 06

  vague indeed, whereby the goal was clear and we had to talk to somebody and we had to have that same information. And I think for a couple of days in a row, attempt after attempt, just to get near to this person and to, I think if, if he will ever Understand what was going on in his life that um um that that there were so many people trying to befriend him, suddenly meet him, um, sit next to him in a train, um, um. Uh, if he knew that the what what what kind of people were were trying to get through to him, uh, he wouldn't

• 55:26Speaker 06

  believe his luck. Well, I'm not wasn't luck for him at the time, but um, um, um, so that uh, yeah, so really literally an elevator pitch, um, um, that that that was fantastic and and and something with with with another, um, that's one of my favorite stories, again, I have to be vague, but, um, they're working with a with a foreign intelligence service with a very friendly service, um, uh, we were also chasing somebody and I I was quite young at the time, um, as a case of, I thought, okay, I I never imagined, I I I knew the the Truman Show, of course, I knew things could be staged and that it could always be fake what you see.

• 56:08Speaker 06

  But I came to in this uh hotel, um, uh, it was not a room, it was a kind of a board, a meeting room with filled with tables and and literally, um, every table was centered around a player in that stage. So, um, it was really the Truman Show, walking behind the uh scenes and suddenly seeing that, uh, all the the friends of this high value target or the business associates had a whole team, um, somebody, uh, uh, psychi- psychologist, uh, uh, hand, two handlers most of the time, uh, somebody with a technical angle, and they were all in this big room, um, just because of this person, one person that we're chasing and, um, uh, and everything in his

• 56:52Speaker 06

  life, that's the only thing I can can, um, uh, reveal that was in him, was fake, everything. So all his friends and all his business partners and and, um, and there was this whole stage and walking into this this huge room with all these people and then somebody said, so, hey, uh, folks, all be quiet now, we have to go through. And then they all start structuring their little plays and their scenarios, where are we and what can we do? That was mind blowing. It was, uh, okay, this is dedication.

• 57:21Jack Murphy?

  Have uh, have you ever read the book, uh, I think it's called The Man Who Was Thursday by G K Chesterfield?

• 57:30Speaker 06

  Yep, oh, that's a long time ago. Yeah. The Thursday.

• 57:34Jack Murphy?

  I I I I mench I mentioned it because the plot of the book is about police trying to infiltrate an anarchist group. And what it turns out is that all of the people in the anarchist group are also cops trying to infiltrate the group.

• 57:48Speaker 06

  Right, right, right. Well, that was, well, I mean, it's, I mean, I'm sure that the first one on your show was going to say that sometimes it's a challenge as well. So we had internet for, so everybody trying to infiltrate at a certain point where I think ninety percent was a spy, ninety-five percent. So

• 58:10Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 58:11Speaker 06

  Everybody was spying for some service and was tipping off somebody, hey, there's this Canadian in your group. And then the Canadians said, okay, well, don't worry about him. Then we knew enough already because it was a Canadian asset. And so, so a lot of these internet for were completely filled with the with its books. And we once, that's a famous anecdote of, it was also written in the book, so I'm not revealing anything. But for a long time, we were quite good in infiltrating the Communist Party. And it was an operation, it was called Operation Mongol. I don't know why. And the Mao-Leninist Party in the Netherlands was also infiltrated, but at a certain point

• 58:53Speaker 06

  was so infiltrated that the whole board of this party was invited to Beijing to receive a very high reward given by the Chinese Communist Party. But what they didn't know is that the complete board of this party, because it was, of course, the operation started to to to to to break down the party. So they they they kind of agents provocateurs, so they tried to break one fraction. They ended up in debates and then there was another fight and then slowly on. So but the leftover of that party, so in that way it was very successful, were all assets of of of of the Dutch service.

• 59:35Speaker 06

  So they ended up with a group and and so the the the top dog spy ended up with a reward

• 59:43Speaker 06

  I think it was even from Mao himself. So, yeah, all revealed in a book. So just to make even with my vetting issues, already revealed.

• 59:59Jack Murphy?

  And after this, you got, I assume, promoted into more of a managerial position and you got more involved in sort of the aforementioned red tape.

• 1:00:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, but it also, it's a way to contribute to the system, to try to improve the system. And of course, not everything worked, but indeed, this police development, I helped with and I was responsible for a longer time. So to set up the system of the police being tasked by the security service. And when I missed that a little bit, then I went back to more of the human intelligence desk. So that's where the people were working, who recruit people and try to set up the infiltration processes. So that's, I always

• 1:00:55Speaker 06

  swapped from the more, the transition kind of, the changing organizations, change management to the more operational side, indeed. Then at the end, also being responsible for more operational means as a deputy director of operations. And the latest thing was being responsible for, again, the transition of our service to be a little bit more future-proof. So it wasn't a budget cut or anything. It wasn't a, we have to do something because we're falling apart. But it was to be ahead of the game, to think about how to change

• 1:01:35Speaker 06

  an organization for the good, to be ready for the new era with more data, more, I think it's about the internet nowadays, about new forms of cooperation. Well, these challenges. But that's also a lot of fun to do.

• 1:01:51Jack Murphy?

  Talk to us about being the deputy director of operations, because now, is he like maybe the number three or number four in the building?

• 1:02:00Speaker 06

  No, no, no, so no, so it's a, it's a management team with a couple of directors.

• 1:02:05Jack Murphy?

  Um.

• 1:02:06Speaker 06

  And only, and so there were like four or five. Um, at the time, and then they all had their deputy. Uh, and it depends on what your view was, of course. Uh, I thought that the director of operations, the director of operations was the most important one. But there were, of course, even more people who thought that the director of intelligence were all the, um, uh, uh, let's, let's call it.

• 1:02:34Jack Murphy?

  The analysts.

• 1:02:35Speaker 06

  What is more, um, not the, the how, yeah, well, eminent, but it was more combined with the more all round team anyway. And only the dedicated, uh, operational specialists were, were, um, were, were in the, in the other, um, directed. Um, but so it, and it was never about the number one, two, three. Yeah, obviously there's one number one always, that's our director general. And, and, and, and he has a deputy, but for the rest, there wasn't a real ranking. So I, it was not like you had a number on your shoulder or anything, so.

• 1:03:09Jack Murphy?

  Well, what was it like doing this job?

• 1:03:11Speaker 06

  It was a fun job to do.

• 1:03:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Speaker 06

  That was the most important thing.

• 1:03:13Jack Murphy?

  I mean, you, you sound like you loved being a spy and now you're at a pretty high level getting to see how the entire machine works.

• 1:03:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, but also very distance from, from, um, um, from, from the actual work. Because one of the biggest mistakes you can make, and I've made that many, many, many times, is that, um, if you're a senior manager, then that you start mingling or, or steering on the operation itself. So, um, I, I wouldn't, I didn't want that as, when I was a case officer or a, or a more working level. So, uh, you, you know, you, you don't want that as, um, as a desk officer, case over analyst or whatever. So, um, but. The people who work there just love that kind of work.

• 1:04:02Speaker 06

  So it was, it was very difficult to distance uh uh yourself and to distance myself from that, from the, from the, from the actual operation and to give enough uh space and um and and mandates to, to let these people do their work, but without falling apart from boredom or, or, what am I doing here? I, I work here because it's, I love the spy business. So uh um, so it was always try, trying to find the, the, the right mix and of course, the more complex and, and secretive and, and uh risky an operation is, uh the, the better chances that it's even shared with High Europe or, or that there's a special task force, steering committee. So um, um, and that was also a lot of fun,

• 1:04:43Speaker 06

  all these special projects and the things. Um, um, I was also surprised how many, at the end, how many risks uh these organizations could take to, to uh, to prevent something uh really terrible from happening. Um, um, so it, it, I, I, I, these years, I, I, I love them as well. I didn't, uh, sometimes I missed the real operational work, but at the same time, uh, I, uh, uh, got more than enough, uh, uh, of the adrenaline and the doses of, uh, of, of, of good wartime stories.

• 1:05:17Jack Murphy?

  Anything, Jason?

• 1:05:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, just curious, uh, whether informally or formally, did you ever have the opportunity to train others, um, or even just daily pass on pieces of wisdom, you know, uh, young, uh, officers come to you and say, hey, chief, I have, uh, something I want to, uh, bounce off of you or things like that?

• 1:05:39Speaker 06

  Um, yeah, so, um, that happened. Um, um, of course, informally, um, uh, if you work, I worked there over twenty-one years. So, um, you build very strong friendship and certain relationship with, with, with, with, with people there. And, um, uh, and, and of course, in, in many periods, I was a mentor for somebody or, or I had a mentor. So it's all, uh, uh, these are not ten, twenty, thirty thousand size.

• 1:06:11Speaker 06

  People organization, these are relatively small kind of organization, a number of thousands.

• 1:06:18Speaker 06

  So it's also very informal and trying to help each other and of course. You have in certain positions, I also had a kind of a responsibility over a certain team or a management team. You have your own managers working with you and some of them needed more coaching than the others and some asked for it. But I think that's the beauty of the system and.

• 1:06:42Speaker 06

  Nobody, because of the kind of work these people do, it's a lot about introspection and about.

• 1:06:51Speaker 06

  Being open and critical to yourself and seeing what your flaws are and. I think it's different and I can compare both worlds a little bit. I think there was much more openness and reflection in general in these kind of environments than there was, for example, in the corporate life whereby. You know that if you gave, you admitted a mistake, but it could also be used against you and it didn't really promote.

• 1:07:22Speaker 06

  Vulnerability and trying to be honest in what you do. That's working with military colleagues and military people in general, I always loved that they're extremely hard, but. When it was about performance and about trying to help each other. Everybody opened up completely and you thought they were the biggest macho kind of people, but they opened up and they. Could be reached and try to improve themselves and I think that kind of culture was definitely also in my service. So yeah, so once in a while trying to help others, but many also helped me. I needed a lot of help always.

• 1:08:06Jack Murphy?

  So talk to us about retirement from your governmental service. You left about three years ago. What inspired your decision to leave the service and where did you land afterwards?

• 1:08:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I um, um, decided to leave the service uh when I came in, in a new kind of um crossroads and okay, what's, what's my next step? And at that time, I suddenly realized, and maybe it was just the 20 years that, that um made this happen, um, they realized I really did so much fun stuff and so much exciting uh work and um, uh so a lot of parts of the world.

• 1:08:50Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:09:05Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:09:16Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:09:21Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:09:27Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:09:48Speaker 12

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• 1:09:52Speaker 13

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• 1:10:05Speaker 12

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• 1:10:09Speaker 03

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• 1:10:17Speaker 06

  And then I thought, okay, will I do another round of these things? And what will it bring me? And it was for the first time that I thought, okay, there's also a world outside, of course, and I was inspired by some systems, like the US system, where it's very normal to retire early, not to stay there until your pension. A lot of Brits as well, they leave, well-paid by the way, so they don't have much incentive. That's different than Dutch system, as in you don't retire at that age, or at my age when I left.

• 1:10:53Speaker 06

  So I knew I had to also bring in some money, so either to work for a company, for NGO, for whatever, but together with also colleague at the time, and he also had a lot of experience on the military intelligence side, and he lived for a long time in Ukraine, worked for the advisory mission there for the Ukraine, for the reforming of the Ukrainian services. And in a split second, we said, okay, if we have these networks together and we have this mentality still, still the energy to do something at this age, why don't we start our own business?

• 1:11:37Speaker 06

  And like, first thing, we want to have fun. So it's not about we're going to set up some commercial boutique and try to sell ourselves to the highest bidder, whether it's an oligarch or a corrupt politician who needs some intel. That's not what we're going to do. We wanted to do the same, with the same kind of mission, working with the same kind of people. Well, we saw that there were a lot of out there who were willing to work with us. But we also said, okay, now we're out there, we can be quick on our feet as well. So we can, we don't have the red tape that these bigger organizations have, we don't have all the levels that we have to go through to discuss a certain possibility.

• 1:12:20Speaker 06

  So indeed, we at that time said, okay, let's try to do the same, of course, under a different law and a different mandate, but with technique changing so fast that it's...

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

  Sometimes more easy being outside of a building and, and working with all the new open source methodologies and techniques and trying to retrieve valuable intelligence. Um, um, so that's what we did. Um, then we started the bird watcher group. Um, um, and, uh, yeah, we, we, we had luck in, in the, in the first year. We saw that there were also governments who were, who needed advice and, and, and training, um, turning away from, from the Russian bear, um, um, or having experience with more KGB style training, KGB mentality, mentality. And they want to do, they want to restart or, or be

• 1:13:17Speaker 06

  trained. So we suddenly had a business there. So we are working, uh, the, the different countries in, in, in the eastern part of, of Europe. Um, so really on security sector reform. Um, uh, we also broker now in intelligence products or technical intelligence solutions. So when, when they ask us our advice or what's the best infancy catcher or, uh, where can we find a good OSINT platform, data fusion, uh, cell or, um, or, or even, um, the, the whole, uh, system of, uh, very, uh, monitored and, and, and, uh, and very well, um, uh,

• 1:14:01Speaker 06

  how to say that, um, um, legally arranged, um, uh, the, the, the, all the cyber defense systems. Um, um, uh, so we advise there as well. And we also investigate, um, with a, with a small team, uh, corporate espionage and, um, insider threat or, or even, uh, if it's, if it's about a huge fraud, um, but preferably with a geopolitical twist, then, then we also assist. So we try to, to do the same as we did, but then, um, uh, for, for a whole new set of, uh, uh, clients and countries.

• 1:14:40Jack Murphy?

  And do you want to tell people what that, uh, term means? Bird watcher, the name of your company, where that came from?

• 1:14:48Speaker 06

  But that's always when you invent a name that it suddenly has much more meanings than we ever realized, but it started with picking up the Spy Clopedia, the British version, and we looked through certain names that were connected to the spy business but also had a more general meaning, so that you're not all the time when we're traveling stopped and thinking that people because of them, or people think that you're some spy mingling into their affairs. And birdwatching is the British term for watching each other's intelligence officers. So that's specifically in the Cold War, they were nonstop watching what the other side

• 1:15:31Speaker 06

  was doing, and so that's where the term birdwatching came from. The owl is also a symbol, and all these stories followed later, but then we found out that the owl is the only bird that catches a bat in full flight, and the bat was the symbol of the Russian special forces misbehaving in Ukraine and thinking that they were invincible. So we used that symbol as well to, well, explain where we stand on that spectrum. And there are many other meanings for birdwatch as well, but one thing, Ian Fleming was an anthropologist, so the inventor of James Bond, he was an anthropologist, and so then

• 1:16:15Speaker 06

  the whole circle was round for us, and that's a perfect, perfect example for a company.

• 1:16:20Jack Murphy?

  Can you tell us about some of the things that their birdwatcher group does, you know, dealing with insider threats, specific countries you've advised?

• 1:16:28Speaker 06

  So we, the latest now, we were in a way involved in the elections in Moldova, whereby we investigated the disinformation and

• 1:16:48Speaker 06

  The mingling into the Moldovan affairs by the Russians. It's one example of the kind of work we did. Investigate where this information came from, the methods that were used, and also to be able to explain to the public what a hybrid war it is right now. So the paid protest. So we shoot some movies even. Some of our people who were out there of protest ended exactly after half an hour or after an hour. And they handed in all the equipment, all the flags

• 1:17:31Speaker 06

  and all the protest material that were collected like central by one person, exactly on the clock after one hour. Because then the time was over and they only got paid for an hour. So that's what they said. Well, these kind of things.

• 1:17:49Speaker 06

  Also, something we pointed out later, even on Dutch national television, is that the Russians abused the church. So they invited, this was already found by Reuters in a very fantastic documentary,

• 1:18:09Speaker 06

  that they invited the hundreds of priests of Moldova to come to Russia on a trip and then they sent them back with a wallet full of money

• 1:18:21Speaker 06

  with the assignment, with the task of

• 1:18:25Speaker 06

  trying to get voters to vote against the ruling party and in favor of the Communist Party. So all these tricks. And so these are the things we investigated. And yeah, that's more on a government level. And indeed, corporate espionage. So insider theft. If, if, if, if, if a company, um, note there's something going on that there's information suddenly leaking uh to the press or to the outside world that's not supposed to, um, and sometimes it's even uh in, steered by, by, by government and directed is in, um,

• 1:19:04Speaker 06

  that it's on request of a certain government, um, uh, I mean, uh, as you all know, the, uh, the, the Chinese have a, a long history in trying to steal uh intellectual property and, uh, specifically for a country as the Netherlands where we always say we have a very open economy, we, um, um, there's no way to protect our knowledge because we're proud of exporting it all over the world, so that's, that's, that's a positive thing, but the, the downside of it is of course that everybody is in a way very naive in, in, that there are countries who have a shopping list and they want certain, um, uh, high-tech industry knowledge, um, the, how to manufacture certain chips, uh, very famous company we

• 1:19:49Speaker 06

  have in the, in the Netherlands as well, chip making, um, um, machines, um, um, but of course also, uh, infamous examples in the past whereby one of our engineers, uh, helped, um, uh, exporting the, um, um, the, uh, the, the, the, the neutron bomb to, to, uh, to Pakistan and to, to make sure that, um, they got the atom weapons, um, uh, that they still have, all because of espionage in, in a, in a, in a university, technical university environment, um, so these are the things we either, uh, uh, assisting, creating

• 1:20:29Speaker 06

  awareness, giving training and make them better prepared, or we, um, uh, or we investigated this, the case itself and then we, um, uh, do that in co- combination with the company of course to, uh, try to find out what's going on.

• 1:20:44Jack Murphy?

  And then tell us about the resilience summit.

• 1:20:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that's the summit at the end of the year, first and second of December.

• 1:20:56Speaker 06

  Europe is already in a hybrid war phase, so it's... We're not warmongers, we're just observants. We, of course, my colleagues and everybody who's working with us with an intelligence or a security background, they know this already for a long time, that sometimes it's not what it seems, or that it's not as it looks. That knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes is now something we would put at work in trying to create awareness that the hybrid warfare stage is pretty much developed already, that the drone attacks are now everyday subjects. It might not be an attack, but disturbing flights or airports.

• 1:21:41Speaker 06

  And then there's a long range of things that are already happening over a longer time in Europe. The most bizarre story is still that the Russians tried to... They were testing this route through DHL, whereby they sent some packages that exploded in a warehouse in Germany. The package was meant to explode in the air in an airplane. Holy shit! We have a collective trauma here in the Netherlands of MH17, of course. That was one of the biggest war crimes, that was our 9/11.

• 1:22:13Speaker 06

  But to imagine that the Russians tried this again last year

• 1:22:18Speaker 06

  with a logistic flight. And that was just a test route for... The real goal was packages going from Europe to the US and tried to target US transport. And I think your government, this was, I think, all discovered or written down by New York Times, but it's a bizarre story that at that point, if you can believe the newspaper, that your government had to... Really draw a red line and to put and say, okay, this now it's this is not hybrid anymore. This is an active war. If you're continuing, uh, well.

• 1:22:51Speaker 14

  Yeah.

• 1:22:52Speaker 06

  Excuse my French, but shit hits the fan, then it's the end of uh, any normal relationship. So, but the fact that this took place and that it happened, uh, uh, and that they got away with it. And then, of course, the uh, the cables that were cut in the, in the North Sea, that's all Dutch uh, economic zone. The, the, the, the shadow fleet, um, that's just extension invasion. But if you map out the landscape of, of all the incidents, we are in a, in a code red hybrid warfare already. So, um, the, the, the summit, uh, the intelligence is all summit. And then the beginning of December is, uh, uh, to, to look at this from an intelligence perspective.

• 1:23:33Speaker 06

  So we invite some, some, uh, very experienced people with a, with an intelligence background or with a political background, but then right former prime minister, um, uh, uh, or with a corporate security background, been there, uh, seeing, uh, ransomware attacks, killing their business, uh, all with a state actor involved. So we want to bring together, um, uh, the people that, that really knows what it, what they're talking about, uh, to talk about the subject that should be on everybody's agenda right now. If you're on the C level, you know, on, on the board of a company, how to create a resilience against this hybrid warfare, as we said, how to disarm, uh, an invisible enemy.

• 1:24:16Speaker 06

  Um, um, so that's what we hope to achieve with this two day summit in, in December.

• 1:24:23Jack Murphy?

  Jason, you got anything else? Good, no, that's. Do we have any questions, Steve?

• 1:24:26Speaker 06

  Uh, no.

• 1:24:27Jack Murphy?

  Okay. Um, so Tim, I mean, thank you for this interview. We really appreciate some of these unique insights. Um, is there anything else that I haven't asked that you'd really like to talk about before we get going?

• 1:24:40Speaker 06

  Yes, that's, I know from my own interview techniques, that's, uh. That's the most dangerous question is. I had one agent who always ended his conversation that way, as in not exactly how you put it, but it was like, okay, was this it? And then we were all trying to, okay, now, okay, goodbye, see you next time. And we're almost ready to stand up. And then he said, I got this one little thing you might find interesting. And that basically, and that last second was always, it was every meeting with him was the same, that last second was was gold. Because we're all waiting for it. So, okay, now this is time to say, I have this one thing. But no, for I don't have anything else. So, thank you for for the conversation.

• 1:25:24Speaker 15

  We do have one question here. Tim, who blew up the Nord Stream pipeline?

• 1:25:32Speaker 15

  To the best of your knowledge?

• 1:25:34Speaker 06

  Wow, I I've been reading the newspaper nowadays with red ears, really like, because I if this is all true, then need the Ukrainian team to do it all by themselves. I was fierce from the beginning, said, that's not possible. There must be some double plot with the Russians one way or the other. But like, it now looks like what I'm reading in newspaper, that they shoot in their own food, big time, by doing this by themselves. And the big question is now, was it authorized by the Ukrainian government? Was it authorized by Zelensky or not? And I think that's the missing piece that's not written down. But the rest of it looks like it, one arrest after the other is made right now. So, there, I hope it doesn't distract

• 1:26:18Speaker 06

  them from from winning this war.

• 1:26:22Speaker 15

  One more question. What intelligence agents?

• 1:26:26Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:26:40Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:26:51Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:26:57Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:27:02Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:27:23Speaker 11

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• 1:27:45Speaker 03

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• 1:27:53Speaker 15

  See in Europe, in your opinion, outside of the one that you worked for for 21 years, is the best?

• 1:28:01Speaker 15

  Or the most competent, I guess. Or most up and coming, maybe. Maybe there's a country out there that's really stepping it up.

• 1:28:10Speaker 06

  Well, it sounds like trying to avoid the question, but I mean it in a way that it has an advantage of being younger service. Because there was this famous quote, I think it was last year in The Economist, whereby somebody, I think it was from SIS, so as everybody says, MI6, might have been five, said, okay, the best thing we can do now is shut down the whole building and the whole organization and rebuild it again. Because it's so difficult with all the legacy to connect the new systems and to adapt the newest technology. And then we're not even talking about the artificial intelligence. But the fact that there's so much legacy to keep on building on that, it's killing them.

• 1:28:53Speaker 06

  So this lady said, we can better just break it all down and start all over again. So there's some new services that are so now adaptive in new technology. And I think they are the ones who are promising new and quick on their feet. But also some, I mean. I have to say, I mean, I think the Brits invented this whole game and I still admire their their humor and also the creativity. But no, there's only competition in niches and

• 1:29:34Speaker 06

  for every service in Europe, I can think of something that they're really good in and took their niche. The Dutch definitely for sure took their niche in cyber for a while. We're really ahead of that game with some of the best hackers in the world. So, no, they're all pretty good.

• 1:29:56Jack Murphy?

  If there's, my two cents, if there's one up and coming that I think is very impressive, or not even up and coming, but the Polish intelligence service, AW, I believe they're called, Agencja Wawadu?

• 1:30:08Speaker 06

  Yep, yep. They're not only good because they're very clever, but they are now excelling also because they understand the Russian mentality. So they're basically educated by them and then not, as in they're the fiercest enemies. And they're motivated because I think nonstop they're thinking you might be next. So there's no service you can find in Europe that's better motivated and better equipped now also budgetary wise than the Polish ones. So yeah, your two cents might be the good one. Worth a lot of money.

• 1:30:53Jack Murphy?

  Thank you, Tim. And we will have some links down in the description for our listeners to the Birdwatcher group if you guys would like to go out and retain Tim's services and his teammates over there. So that'll be in the description for people who are listening to the podcast or watching this on YouTube. Anything else, guys, before we? Thank you. Roll out of here? It was awesome. Yeah, thank you, Tim.

• 1:31:15Speaker 06

  My pleasure.

• 1:31:18Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Shawn Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House, and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you, as social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once-a-week email, it'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week.

• 1:31:58Speaker 16

  It's really good, man. I'm checking it out.

• 1:32:01Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Go there, and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support, and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 1:32:24Speaker 16

  Where's the link?

• 1:32:26Jack Murphy?

  The link will also be down in the description, if you're looking for it there.

• 1:32:30Speaker 16

  And that's teamhousepodcast.kit, K-I-T, Kilo, India, Tango, dot com, backslash, join.

• 1:32:42Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:32:56Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic," in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:33:07Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 1:33:12Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:33:18Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:33:38Speaker 13

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast. A show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:34:32Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:34:43Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you are not alone.

• 1:34:48Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:34:54Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:35:15Speaker 11

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• 1:35:37Speaker 03

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• 1:35:54Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:36:08Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:36:19Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:36:24Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:36:30Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:37:44Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:37:55Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:38:00Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:38:06Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:38:26Speaker 13

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Ushkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:39:20Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:39:31Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:39:36Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:39:42Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:40:02Speaker 11

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• 1:40:26Speaker 03

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• 1:40:38Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast. A show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:40:52Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:41:03Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:41:08Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:41:14Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:41:34Speaker 11

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• 1:41:59Speaker 03

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• 1:42:05Speaker 00

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair,

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:43:05Speaker 13

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Crisp mornings, pumpkin spice latte, and it's the best time to cozy up and play Spinquest. They have over 1,000 different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 1:43:29Speaker 03

  Spinquest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 1:43:35Speaker 17

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