Dave Ramsey: How To Create Financial Freedom & Become Your Own Boss

Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! In this powerful conversation, Dave Ramsey shares the emotional scars from his early business struggles that transformed into 35 years of success. From the trenches of entrepreneurial battle, Dave reveals at Ramsey Solutions headquarters how the hardest work you'll ever do is during a business's earliest days, when you're doing everything yourself and feeling like you're on an endless treadmill. With refreshing vulnerability, he recounts how his wife's intuition has repeatedly saved him from disastrous business decisions, and explains why building a company culture where negativity isn't tolerated creates an environment that accomplishes the work of four times as many people. Whether you're launching your first business or aiming to leave a legacy, Dave's practical wisdom offers a roadmap for entrepreneurs who want to build something meaningful without sacrificing their soul in the process. Dave’s new book Build a Business You Love: Mastering the Five Stages of BusinessDave’s book Total Money MakeoverDave’s book Entreleadership: 20 Years of Practical Business Wisdom from the TrenchesThe Ramsey Show podcastIn this episode you will learn:Why the first stage of business feels like a treadmill and how to strategically move beyond itThe three rules of business that apply to everyone: it takes twice as long, costs twice as much, and you're not the exceptionHow to develop the emotional resilience needed to handle the inevitable setbacks of entrepreneurshipWhy your first business idea is probably "an ugly gargoyle" that needs significant refinementHow creating a culture of trust allows Ramsey's 1,100 employees to accomplish the work of 4,000 peopleThe critical importance of taking your time with hiring decisions and why emotional competence trumps raw talentHow Dave structures his succession plan to ensure Ramsey Solutions thrives beyond his leadershipWhy Dave considers stewardship—viewing the business as God's, not his own—the foundation of his successFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1758For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Anas Bukhash – greatness.lnk.to/1753SCAnthony O'Neal – greatness.lnk.to/1738SCAlex Hormozi – greatness.lnk.to/1723SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  It's a beautiful day and I'm so grateful that you're here right now. Whatever you're going through in the world right now, I just want to acknowledge you for showing up for you today, investing in you, learning, developing yourself, motivating yourself, educating yourself, and being a part of this community at the School of Greatness. And did you know that your value appreciates every time you use your skillset to help someone else? I talk about this in my new book, that's a quote from my book, "Make Money Easy." Your value appreciates every time you use your skillset to help someone else. So if you feel stuck, or trapped, or stagnant in life, think about how you can use something inside of you, a resource, a hidden skill, a hidden talent,

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  a tangible skill that you have, and help someone today. When you do that, you appreciate in value because you're adding value and generosity to someone else. Again, you've heard me say this before, gratitude and generosity are the gateway to abundance, and your value appreciates every time you use your skillset to help someone else. So if you feel stuck, stagnant, trapped, overwhelmed, burdened, you might need a break. That's one thing. You might need to rest and take like five to 10 minutes to just breathe and actually not do anything. But if you feel kind of like, just like something's not breaking through in life, stop thinking about me and start thinking about how can I add value with my skillset? And I want you to do that to some person today in your life.

• 1:27Lewis Howes?

  Reach out to someone, be a giver, be a resource, be generous with your time, your energy, your talents, and add value to someone today. And someone who added value to me today was Dave Ramsey. I had a chance to sit down with him and have him on my show. I've been inspired by Dave as a human being for many years, and it's amazing to watch what he's built within his business. 1,200 employees in Nashville, an amazing facility that I was at for the entire day, doing some press with my book launch, but also interviewing Dave for the School of Greatness. And the man just has a presence about him. He just has a character about him. I'm not saying he's some perfect human being, but he has built something inspiring that has lasted and will continue to.

• 2:10Lewis Howes?

  Last for many years to come and it's powerful to watch how he's built a business based on values and character and it doesn't mean everyone likes it and everyone agrees with it but he has built something based on his values and those values attract the right people and those people he invests in them and they appreciate in value and if you're looking to build anything if you're looking to build a business a side hustle a side project your art your music and put it out into the world there are three rules of business that no entrepreneur is exempt from that Dave is going to be talking about and sharing from this in this interview he also shares some tactical things to do with growing your business and setting up the business the

• 2:53Lewis Howes?

  processes the people the product all these different things but there's one element of this interview that we kept coming back to and it's his secret weapon which is his wife and he talks about how his wife uses one skill to make some of the biggest decisions in his business and it's something that she's developed over time that is appreciated over time and he's tried to go against it and just go with his own gut at times and it's burned him but every time he has to make a big decision he leans on his wife and a superpower that she has and it's the critical difference between the success and really making things easier versus harder so I'm excited for you to dive into this today I hope you enjoy this episode with the one and

• 3:34Lewis Howes?

  only Dave Ramsey welcome back everyone I am excited to be here day I'm in Nashville at the Ramsey headquarters Dave Ramsey in the house so good to see you sir you too welcome back thank you it's exciting man around here man it's exciting man that seat right there I gotta come back more often you know maybe you'll find me back more often every couple of years I get back it's nice and the reason I'm back is because you got a new book and I'm excited about this I was able to dive into this build a business you love and I think a lot of people want to build a business they love but they stress about it they over they have a lot of overwhelmed they have a lot of stress they have a lot of anxiety they go into it thinking I have this big dream or I want to serve people in a bigger way But then they try to do it all themselves and it becomes this daunting thing that they,

• 4:19Lewis Howes?

  it's a nightmare. And I think small business owners have had a tough time in the last few years, obviously with COVID, inflation, political changes, just uncertainty, egg prices, all these things are kind of all over the place. And it's really hard for some of them to navigate how to manage a team and also manage their mindset while they're trying to build and launch a business. And for those that are struggling, are scrambling, are just trying to figure this out, what should they be thinking? Should they even be thinking that they can build a business they love in this season of life? Or what should they be thinking in the world right now in small business?

• 5:01Dave Ramsey?

  You know, it's so funny, those of us that are entrepreneurial, we're like, I want to work for myself. And then you find out your boss is a jerk.

• 5:10Dave Ramsey?

  You find out he's a slave driver.

• 5:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:13Dave Ramsey?

  16 hour days and cracking the whip and you're exhausted, you don't even know what you're doing and you're scared and you're lonely and you're, and you're, you know, you're stepping and fetching and you're leaving the cave trying to find something to kill and drag back and oh my gosh, it's hard. It's really hard. And then add a bunch of outside societal variables to it that are all yelling at you that you're going to fail. It gets scary, it's hard. And, um, and I've never met anyone that was the exception of that. The ones that think they're the exception of that scare me because that means they're getting ready to hit the wall. Cause their pride and they're good, they don't have any idea that if you're, if you're not a little scared, you're weird. And you should be a little scared. That, that if you're not a little bit lonely and a little bit overworked and a little bit stressed, uh, welcome to self-employment.

• 5:58Dave Ramsey?

  Welcome to running a small business. That's how it works. Uh, the good, that's the bad news. The good news is, is that it can get better. That, um, I distinctly remember those days. They're emotionally scarred into my brain from the old days, so to speak. And been doing this 35 years, you know, this Ramsey thing, 35 years. And so, but I remember those early days when you had to do everything yourself. And I would get home and I would lay down across the couch exhausted after 16 hour days. And my wife would say, what'd you do today? I have no freaking idea. But I did a lot of it. And I remember that. And that sense of feeling like you're on a treadmill,

• 6:42Dave Ramsey?

  which is the first stage of the five stages in business. It's a natural place to be. The good news is you don't have to stay there, that you can move on up and you'll face different problems as you go through the different stages. But you'll also start to get some relief. Because I think the hardest you ever work is when you first kick it off.

• 7:01Lewis Howes?

  It's so hard. It's so hard. And people, they get excited about it. But then it's, you're not making money. You got all these expenses. You got customers who are upset with you and you're not sleeping. And then your relationships are going to crap.

• 7:13Dave Ramsey?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:14Lewis Howes?

  You're like, why am I doing this? Your health is going to crap, or relationships are going to crap. If you don't have boundaries for your life.

• 7:20Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah.

• 7:20Lewis Howes?

  If you don't have any type of stability, it can feel exhausting and overwhelming. But the treadmill phase is the first phase. Is that just kind of like everyone, you're doing everything all at once?

• 7:31Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah. And you don't even really own a business. You just own your job.

• 7:35Lewis Howes?

  Right. And you're not getting paid well.

• 7:37Dave Ramsey?

  Because, because if you don't come to work, the stuff doesn't get produced.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 7:41Dave Ramsey?

  And the revenue doesn't get produced. It's all the production of the good or service that you're in. And all of the, and all the revenue. I mean, so if you get hurt, or sick, or take a vacation week, you know, you just expect the revenue go whoop in the, and there's no widgets being made. And so if you're a veterinarian, and you're the only person there, no dogs are getting help. You know, if you're a dentist, you're the only person there, nobody's teeth's getting help, you know, and so on. And it's just, it's all dependent on you. And you know that. And that's what you signed up for. So it's okay. But you don't want to stay there because it feels like you're on a treadmill. And so the way to level up out of that is to start to talk about, okay, how do we get some team on board that can create some revenue, and that can make some of the widgets?

• 8:26Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:27Dave Ramsey?

  And can provide some of the services. And I've got to learn to manage my freaking time. Because you, you know, when you're in the treadmill stage, when I was in the treadmill stage, you're, you're running from crisis to crisis to crisis. You just wear a fireman's hat all the time.

• 8:43Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:43Dave Ramsey?

  And you're not doing any thought past the moment. All you're doing is living in the moment. And that just is chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos, chaos. The customers feel it, your spouse feels it, you feel it, and you don't feel like you're getting traction, cause you're not, you're on the treadmill.

• 8:59Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:59Dave Ramsey?

  And, and so you've got to start managing your time and going, okay, I'm gonna set out blocks of time to think about something other than the flavor of the moment, the crisis of the moment. And I'm gonna start talking about, how can I add team members, just a few key ones, just to get this off of my shoulders that are tired.

• 9:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:19Dave Ramsey?

  And, and that, that, that sounds very obvious, very primitive, very simple, but that is exactly how you level up out of, out of that and move on.

• 9:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Thirty-five years in doing this business, if someone was asking you, you know, Dave, I wanna, I wanna get, I'm excited to launch my own business. I wanna do this thing. I wanna try this out. I've got an idea. I wanna launch it. And you could give them three keys of really what to look out for before launching it, to try to set them up for some type of success and eliminate as much pain as possible, although they're gonna have challenge and pain and stress. But if you said, if you could do these three things when you launch your business, or right before you're launching, to make sure you do every day, or you set it up in the beginning, what will support them in getting to the best success possible?

• 10:06Dave Ramsey?

  Number one, know that the first thing that you try, you think it is a beautiful baby, and it is an ugly gargoyle.

• 10:16Lewis Howes?

  (laughing)

• 10:17Dave Ramsey?

  It's not, that's not, that, that thing's not gonna survive.

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 10:21Dave Ramsey?

  Prototype is not gonna make it.

• 10:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Dave Ramsey?

  And I know you love it, and I know you think it's your thing. And I know you think it's your first child. It's not. It's just a bad idea that hasn't told you yet. Oh, man. And so it's just you every that nothing, no one launches a per get gets their first idea. Very few people does that ever even get to market. Hmm. Uh, it never gets past test market or beta or whatever you want to call it. And uh, cause your customers look at you and go, you're an idiot. This thing sucks. And you go, okay, I gotta change that because I still want to do this idea. I still want this service to be provided, but the way I'm doing it, the model Mm hmm. Or the shape of the widget is not right. And so just get your little feelings hurt.

• 11:05Dave Ramsey?

  Go ahead and get ready because your little baby is ugly. And so, uh, you know, you just, it's hard. That's hard. Uh, the second thing is for God's sakes, don't borrow money. Mm hmm. Of course you knew Dave Ramsey's gonna say that. Mm hmm. But what happens is you're gonna make mistakes. We just talked about that. There's no one that's the exception of that. And when you borrow money into your mistakes, you magnify the size of them. Hmm. And so if you buy forty two thousand of that widget and go put it on a credit card, and then you figure out they all have to go in the dumpster, now you've got credit card debt. Mm hmm. And cause you know, but you know, the optimist in us, the the abundance mentality in us says, oh, it's gonna work. And it's not. Yeah. It it's a it's gonna work eventually, but it's gonna be its pretty cousin

• 11:50Dave Ramsey?

  Hmm. To the thing you thought was really pretty, and it's not really pretty. So don't borrow into it because you're really gonna, you're gonna uh hasten the end of this endeavor. It's gonna come down on you hard. Wow. Um, and then the other thing I guess is the old three rules of business, you know, it's gonna take twice as long as you think. It's gonna cost twice as long as you think, and you're not the exception. Those are the three rules of business. And that's true here today inside of Ramsey. We get ready to launch something. We got this little thing. It's coming out in two months. Yeah. Yeah, it's coming. No, and I sit down, I I talk to the tech guys, and I'm going, okay, we ought to be able to put this out in about what, a week and a half? And they're like, no, try six months. Oh, my gosh. And I'm going, no, I don't do, you know, I don't write code, but we're not waiting six months. Let's figure something out. But they're going, no chance your six day dream

• 12:33Dave Ramsey?

  that you can just end that right now. So we end up settling reality somewhere in between. But it costs twice as long or takes twice as long, costs twice as much, therefore, uh, even if you're building a digital product, because you got the man hours and the stinking thing. And you know, the, the, the team on it and, and so yeah, that, those are the things that pop into my head first when you ask that, but it's, it's still a great adventure.

• 12:57Lewis Howes?

  It is a great adventure if you can manage it. And speaking of managing it, how did you learn to manage your mind or your emotions? During the first kind of three to five years of launching the business, when things changed so much, when you made a lot more mistakes probably back then than you do now? When people came and go, when you had to learn about culture, like, how did you manage your emotions and your mindset around all of the crazy adventures of entrepreneurship?

• 13:23Dave Ramsey?

  The things I thought were going to kill me didn't. And so the little drama queen that lives inside my head, got smaller and smaller and quieter and quieter. The first person that left Ramsey that was on our team, I was emotionally devastated. Why would anyone want to leave? We're perfect. It's me. Why would they want to leave? And, and now, you know, we've got 1100 people, people leave every week and I don't even know some of them.

• 13:52Dave Ramsey?

  Not an issue. And I'm not mad. I mean, I'm not being, I don't flip and I don't want them to leave still. But the thing I thought was going to kill me didn't kill me. And, uh, you know, the, the, the, uh, the death of the prototype and the rebirth of it as a prettier version of it, uh, didn't kill me. It hurt my feelings though. And now I expect it more. Now I expect, you know, I'm probably about the only one here at Ramsey that's not going to leave.

• 14:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:19Dave Ramsey?

  Someday, you know, and I, so I kind of expect it. I hope nobody leaves today. I hope nobody leaves 10 years from now. I hope they stay with me until I'm gone. But the reality is that that's probably not so. And so I've just got to go, no, and, and we survived that. And we're sad, but we're sad.

• 14:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Dave Ramsey?

  Especially when somebody's key and that we love deeply and we've been with for a lot of years, but you're sad. And, uh, so, but again, that's just drama. It's like, cause you're like, oh, the whole thing's going, no, it's not.

• 14:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Dave Ramsey?

  No, it's not. And, and so the more I had things I thought were going to kill me didn't, or that I thought were the end that weren't. Then I went, okay, the drama queen really has to shut up. It's inside my head.

• 15:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Dave Ramsey?

  Really got to sit down and take a backseat back there. So I just practiced it and, and it's, you know, when I look back on the things, you know, 10 years ago or 20 years ago that we thought were the end. This is it. You know, and this, I don't know if anybody else has these thoughts, but that's the way it rings in my brain, you know?

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 15:19Dave Ramsey?

  And, and I look back and it's like, that's almost funny that I thought that, because that's so stinking small.

• 15:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:26Dave Ramsey?

  There's no chance that was taking us out. We were so much bigger and stronger than that by then.

• 15:30Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 15:30Dave Ramsey?

  And it's like, nope, not gonna take us out.

• 15:33Lewis Howes?

  But how do you, I mean, for me, um, I struggled with this early on in the first probably five, seven years of, of the business. Because I was like, I'm investing in this person personally, financially, you know, emotionally, spiritually. I'm investing resources, time, energy. And if they did something where they left, I was like devastated for a while, you know? And it felt like it would emotionally set me back and I, I guess my feelings were hurt or I was sad.

• 15:59Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah.

• 16:00Lewis Howes?

  And you're just like, so how have you learned, I guess, to be emotionally invested in people? And really lifting them up, but not emotionally devastated when they leave for whatever reason?

• 16:14Dave Ramsey?

  Well, you know, there's two things that happen when someone leaves, whether they leave on their own or whether we ask them to leave. Two things that happen. One is they go on and have a much better life.

• 16:24Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 16:26Dave Ramsey?

  And two is some of them don't. You know? But, um, uh, uh, but you know, most of them go on and have a better life.

• 16:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 16:38Dave Ramsey?

  And here's the other thing, the slot that they leave open. 98% of the time, God sends us an upgrade.

• 16:46Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 16:48Dave Ramsey?

  And so if they're gonna leave and the stuff I've taught them is gonna help them be a better version of them and they're gonna go out there and win somewhere else because of that and that's most of the time the case and I'm gonna get an upgrade in their slot, there's really nothing to be sad about.

• 17:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:06Dave Ramsey?

  Other than just the personal loss of not being in fellowship with that person on a daily basis, you know, that that

• 17:12Lewis Howes?

  Relationship, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:13Dave Ramsey?

  That relationship and that's real.

• 17:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Dave Ramsey?

  And that's sad, but um, you know, if you thought that when you let someone go, that their life was gonna be destroyed because you let them go, you would be really sad.

• 17:25Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 17:26Dave Ramsey?

  But the reality is after doing it for 35 years, most of them get an upgrade and most of the time the slot they left, we get an upgrade because it was done. It was either wasn't a fit to start with.

• 17:36Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:36Dave Ramsey?

  Or the season was over and God says, okay, next for both of you.

• 17:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Dave Ramsey?

  Everybody take a step up.

• 17:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I think that's, you know, something I've heard you talk about and read in your books before about really taking a long time to hire someone.

• 17:51Dave Ramsey?

  Loading, definitely.

• 17:52Lewis Howes?

  Spending a lot, I think it's like 13 or 15 interviews.

• 17:54Dave Ramsey?

  Used to be, we got it down to seven.

• 17:55Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 17:56Dave Ramsey?

  Cause it was out of control.

• 17:56Lewis Howes?

  Too much, yeah.

• 17:57Dave Ramsey?

  Still harder to get on here than the FBI, yeah.

• 17:59Lewis Howes?

  And just like, I don't know how long it usually takes, a months long process.

• 18:04Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, easy.

• 18:04Lewis Howes?

  For people to come and I think as an entrepreneur, when you're starting or when you have a smaller business, uh, you need to, you feel like you need to fill that position now because you're running on the treadmill.

• 18:14Dave Ramsey?

  Yep.

• 18:14Lewis Howes?

  And until you find that person, and so sometimes we as entrepreneurs might cut corners or just say, oh, they seem like a great fit after one interview and 30 minutes and no reference checks, so let's put them in the place. And then it's six months, a year of trying to make something work that isn't in alignment.

• 18:31Dave Ramsey?

  And you get to do it over because you did it wrong.

• 18:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Dave Ramsey?

  And it's kind of akin to, I've got a bunch of rental property and I grew up in the real estate business and so if you get desperate for a tenant. You'll put a cocaine addict in. I mean, you know, and, and then you'll go, oh, God, they're changing the Harley oil in the living room. I mean, it's, you know, and you're just go, cause I, cause I got, cause I got desperate, I got stupid.

• 18:53Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 18:53Dave Ramsey?

  And when I get desperate on hires, I get stupid. Slow your butt down. Slow down. Take your time. Uh, because you are going to expend a lot of energy, a lot of calories, a lot of, uh, money to get this person in and you're going to invest in them. And eventually someday they're going to move along probably.

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:13Dave Ramsey?

  But we want to have gotten an ROI on them and they want to get an ROI on the process too. And, you know, really, when you hire somebody, it's about six months before you make money on them.

• 19:23Lewis Howes?

  Right. Cause you gotta onboard them and train them and give them the culture.

• 19:26Dave Ramsey?

  You know, they don't even know where the bathroom is, you know, for two weeks. And so it's much less be productive at their job. And so it just takes a little while. Some people are able to get into the seat faster than others, but, but, um, this idea that, you know, that by Friday I'm going to be making money on this payroll. No, you're not.

• 19:42Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 19:43Dave Ramsey?

  Takes a minute.

• 19:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What would you say after 35 years in this business is the biggest mistake you've made in the last few years? And maybe it's, I know these principles, I teach these principles, but still sometimes I'm a knucklehead or I, ah, just kind of was rushed this thing and it, ah, what was I thinking? I knew better. Was there anything that, like that in the last few years?

• 20:03Dave Ramsey?

  Uh, there's always something. Um, I, I think what hap- the thing that aggravates me the most, and it's more of a we than it is a me around here because we do so much with collaboration, the leadership team these days. It's not, Dave is not the Lone Ranger doing hardly anything. Um, nor are any of our other leaders. They're all, they're not in silos. We're very much in pockets of people and we all sit down and go, what are we doing here?

• 20:26Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 20:26Dave Ramsey?

  And, um, but, you know, I think we all, I think we have revisited, um, and reset some of the, uh, things we say when we're hiring someone. And because we were, we were getting really high quality people in that were excited to be here. But they, um, they were not, uh, we, we had a drop off in Crusader. And our people need to be Crusaders for what we do. What, what does that look like? What does that mean being a Crusader? It, it means around here that, um, you're a hypocrite if you're working in this place and making a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year and you go rent a car. Or you go lease a car or go buy a car on payments. Um, you really have to live the message. We don't, we don't check your wallet. Right.

• 21:11Dave Ramsey?

  But, you know, and we don't come around saying, have you got a credit card? We don't do that, but, um, we're not big brother. But, but, you know, it's, if you're here trying to get people to get out of debt and do not borrow money on cars and do, live debt free the way we teach or be on a budget the way we teach and you're working on the every dollar team, uh, and you're not doing a budget. Hello. I mean, that's just kinda, you know, and, and it affects your work. Because now you're, you're doing a J O B. You're here to click to check and execute a task. That's, that's not, you don't fit in here. You're not living the mission. You know, we're missional, man. We're just, we're charging the gates of hell with a water pistol. You know, you gotta, you gotta load up the water. Here we go. Uh, that's what we're doing every day for thirty five years.

• 21:56Dave Ramsey?

  And we let our foot off the gas and started bringing in some high quality humans. They were nice people. They were good people, good values, all those kinds of things, but they weren't Crusaders. Interesting. And they, you know, they didn't like if Dave, uh, interviewed Trump or they didn't like if, uh, Dave said Jesus. Or there's something like that. And so, um, that you probably aren't gonna like it because I'm gonna do all that stuff, you know? And so, and I'm not mad about it, but you know, what did you think you were signing up for? But yeah, we were, we did a bad job. We let our guard down on that. And so we changed some of our, uh, discussion in the hiring process with the person to make sure that they know. This is what you're, this is what it's gonna be when you get here.

• 22:41Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:41Dave Ramsey?

  And then they can self opt out in the interview process, which is much easier and less painful for them and us.

• 22:48Lewis Howes?

  We're talking about your book today, Build a Business You Love: Mastering the Five Stages of Business. Uh, one of the questions I have for you about around this topic is I think it's really interesting because when a lot of people see your content and think of you, I think that they, that they think you don't make any mistakes essentially because, because, because of just how, you know, whatever Dave does, even if it's a mistake, he just keeps getting bigger and more successful and the business grows and more people come and he can hire anyone. So I appreciate you sharing like, you know, we, we dropped our guard a little bit. We just hired great people, but not the great fit. And maybe there were some challenges there that you had to face.

• 23:31Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah. I mean, you, you look crazy in the building. You know, that's what happens.

• 23:34Lewis Howes?

  I'm always fascinated by your spiritual, um, practice within yourself before you come into this place every single day. Because I know this is a part of your life in a big way and this is part of your values. Is there something you think about within your spiritual practice of an intention before you come here every day? Before you do a, a show, before you have a meeting, before anything, that really grounds you for what you're about to take on for the day?

• 24:05Dave Ramsey?

  I don't know that it is a, um,

• 24:09Dave Ramsey?

  like a little prayer list or something on my phone. It's, that's not what it is, but it's more, when we went broke all those years ago before we started this, um, I had met God on the way up. I got to know him on the way down.

• 24:21Dave Ramsey?

  And not only did I go broke, I was broken. I mean, I lost my confidence and I, I needed to be knocked down a notch. Believe me, I was an arrogant little twerp. And so, uh, but, but I mean, I was not just humbled, I was humiliated. And, um, a, and so.

• 24:40Dave Ramsey?

  I'm laying flat on my back, looking up and going, okay, I am not, if we're gonna open a business, I'm not going to do everything by myself. God, you're gonna have to show us what you want done. This is yours, we'll manage it for you. This is yours, we'll manage it for you, but this is yours, we'll manage it for you, but you're gonna have to speak. You're gonna have to show, you're gonna have to give us some answers to some of these equations through circumstance, through just a random scripture popping up and go, oh, that's the answer to that, or through whatever, through someone teaching us, or whatever it is. I don't care where it comes from, but we need to know what you, how you want your business run.

• 25:20Dave Ramsey?

  And that was at the foundational thing, that idea of stewardship, that I'm not the owner, I'm the manager. What was foundational. And so that is the undercurrent that runs through, you know, every morning I walk my little dog this morning, three miles, we go around the golf course and teaching her to, you know, do the commands, I'm working on all that. And the undercurrent, while I'm doing that and praying, and I'm just going, okay, what do you want to do today, God? Really? And what is it you got? And if I'm gonna be in there with my friend Lewis, and what is it that, that, that he needs? And how can we be helpful to him? And how can this book be helpful to people? And what do you want to do, God? And, and then, you know, I just come down here and it ends up working out okay.

• 26:02Dave Ramsey?

  So, but it's kind of a undercurrent, and it's not, it's not a special, like pump yourself up or something, because some days you come down and the day is a tragedy and it sucks. And you're like, okay, God, what are you doing?

• 26:16Dave Ramsey?

  Was the lesson. It's not fun. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, you get in the middle of some of this jeez stuff we get into when we're running stuff. And it's all this stupid butt stuff you deal with. But yeah, but, but that's the under thing and you go, okay. And but that also even in a tragedy day, in a, in a day that makes you angry, or your feelings are hurt, or whatever, and you're frustrated, and you come home, and you go.

• 26:36Dave Ramsey?

  Well, if it's God's and we're running it for Him, that's probably not the last day we're here. Probably we'll go back tomorrow and rejoice in your tribulations because tribulations produce perseverance.

• 26:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 26:48Dave Ramsey?

  And perseverance, character and character, hope. And so it just, you know, that this is called the, the method of success. People that are successful are perseverers.

• 26:56Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:56Dave Ramsey?

  They don't quit. It just because there's problems. And you gotta have a mindset to get above that because it hurts.

• 27:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Dave Ramsey?

  And you, you question yourself and you question your own judgment and um, I don't do that as dramatically as we said earlier as I used to, but it's still, I'm not, I don't have everything figured out.

• 27:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Dave Ramsey?

  Okay, what are we gonna do for the next 10 years around here? Ooh. I mean, I don't think podcast, I mean, are we all gonna be a hologram? I mean, what's coming next? You know what I mean? Are we gonna teach this stuff?

• 27:26Lewis Howes?

  What, I mean, you talk about perseverance. Uh, and I think God, for me, I feel like God has, I guess, tested me or put in me in challenging situations where I've had to have courage. I've had to develop the courage to be able to persevere.

• 27:37Dave Ramsey?

  Yep.

• 27:37Lewis Howes?

  So that I can take on more and, and steward different challenges. I mean, what is the thing you've had to persevere the most in the last few years? Either personally or professionally?

• 27:46Dave Ramsey?

  Really, really, really finally coming to grips with the whole idea that I'm not necessary for this place to win. And that's succession handoff.

• 27:55Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:56Dave Ramsey?

  Uh, we started that 16 years ago. We started working on succession and handoff and so forth. And uh, so I planned to be less important. And Dad Gump, it didn't work.

• 28:07Lewis Howes?

  It didn't work.

• 28:08Dave Ramsey?

  It did work.

• 28:09Lewis Howes?

  It did work.

• 28:09Dave Ramsey?

  It did work. And that's distressing.

• 28:11Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 28:12Dave Ramsey?

  So I mean, you know, the noble, the intellectual, the wisdom says that's a good thing. But the little boy likes to be important, okay? I like, I'm like anybody else. I, I, I wanna be, I, I, I wanna be a big deal, you know? And so I, everybody does. And I, I'm kidding a little bit, but not much.

• 28:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:29Dave Ramsey?

  As soon as some of those succession plans started working, I looked up and emotionally the ground started moving around under my feet. And so, you know, I took uh, six weeks off last year in a row for the first time in my life. And we have the Ramsey personalities on the Ramsey show. And uh, we've had the Ramsey personality on the Ramsey show for four years. And so, and everything's fine. We know what they, we know they can handle it.

• 28:50Lewis Howes?

  When you're there, but then.

• 28:51Dave Ramsey?

  No, that, even if I'm not there, we know they can handle it. And we know the audience likes them. And um, you know, we've worked through all the little kinks and stuff to get all that ready. And so I'm like, okay, I can take off and they can just do the show. And I did. And. The ratings went up.

• 29:06Lewis Howes?

  Come on, no way.

• 29:07Dave Ramsey?

  While I was gone.

• 29:08Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 29:08Dave Ramsey?

  Really hurt my feelings.

• 29:11Lewis Howes?

  You're like, we're making all this money, but no one cares about me, right? Wow.

• 29:17Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, you realize you're not the Messiah.

• 29:20Lewis Howes?

  So this is six weeks, huh?

• 29:22Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, I was gone, yeah.

• 29:23Lewis Howes?

  What would it look like to take three months off and have the personality? Do you think it would grow?

• 29:29Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, I think it will. Um, I, I think it, I think it's at that point now, and that's what we've worked really, really hard on for 15 freaking years, you know? Uh, and had a lot of false starts and a lot of problems, but we're, we've kinda got that part of it working. We got the leadership team working and I'm the CEO, my son Daniel is the president. We did that three years ago and he and I were carrying about 50, 50% of the load of running the place. And then we went to 60, 40 and we're at about 80, 20 now.

• 29:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 29:55Dave Ramsey?

  And, um, because, you know, I, the last thing you need is the old man showing up and throwing grenades, you know? The, uh, what is it, what do they call it? The, uh, uh, seagull management, you fly in and poop over everything, you know? So, you know?

• 30:09Lewis Howes?

  You talk about it in the book that there's six drivers of business. You know, the, the personal one, which is kinda the first one, which is you're both the problem and the solution. And I'm hearing you say that in this part, you know, by limiting your drivingness in the business down to 20%. Um, you know, there's, that's a solution for you, but it's also hurting you maybe that you're not as in control as you once were with your baby.

• 30:35Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, and, um, but the, the irony is, is that you kill things that you love if you don't turn this loose. I, I, you know, cause I, we've coached 10,000 small businesses and we've coached the 85-year-old dad with a 65-year-old son who still isn't in charge.

• 30:51Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 30:52Dave Ramsey?

  You know, he's been neutered.

• 30:53Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:54Dave Ramsey?

  I mean, that's just ridiculous. But the old man just won't let go because he's freaking control freak and the the first Gen one to Gen two is a hard head. It's that's emotionally the hardest of the succession plans. Because they have they Betch with their hands in the dirt. You know, which is true. But this thing of prying their hands off of it is it's just an emotional experience. And that acts oddly enough is the last stage of the five stages is the legacy stage. Mm hmm. Where you plan an exit of some kind. Uh succession is one version of that. Obviously, you could sell. Um, uh, you could sell to team members. You could, uh, let family come in, which is our case.

• 31:34Dave Ramsey?

  Uh, our fam- our the next generation of Ramses will be running this a hundred percent and will be the owners of it. Uh, if I died today, my wife does not get Ramsey. She doesn't. No, that she doesn't want it and she's not capable of doing it and it's not, it would bring her pain and everybody else involved. Right. So, no, I mean, that and that's been that way for a long time. Believe me, she's okay. Right. She'll get paid out. Yeah. Well, no, no, she didn't get paid out of this. Really? No, she but she we've got enough wealth. Yeah, you're doing all right. She's sharing gonna be okay. But the, um, and, uh, and she just is that makes her into the cheerleader for the for her children who will be aren't children, but, um, her adult children. Adult children. Yeah, yeah.

• 32:16Dave Ramsey?

  That that'll be the next generation of that. And, um, so we just had to work on that and you have to do it intentionally because too many people on that last stage of the five stages. Um, you know, they grab their chest and as they're falling back in the grave, they toss the keys out, you know? And the probability of that working is almost zero. Wow. Because it's there's so much that's left unsaid, undone. Nobody knows what's going on. Everybody's surprised. Um, and it's very, very difficult to turn that. Yeah. Processes aren't in place or whatever it might be for the transition. Well, trust is not there in the next, the person that catches the keys. Customers don't know them and trust them. The vendors don't know them and trust them.

• 32:59Dave Ramsey?

  The team doesn't know them and trust them. They just happen to be standing there because they were family and the keys came out of that grave and they're like, oh no. And everybody else goes, oh no. It's a problem. So the more gradual the handoff, the higher the probability of success.

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  I love that you always talk about your, your wife and the kind of the journey and how she's been a cheerleader and supported you throughout this and probably given you some tough love at different times as well. Maybe when you made some mistakes.

• 33:24Dave Ramsey?

  Every day.

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  I, you know, I'm wondering if you can share some wisdom for me. I just got married. And for those who are also business owners or entrepreneurs who are in a marriage, whether they've been married for a while and they're launching into business, or they're, they've had a business and they're launching into marriage. What advice do you have for either me or those in that situation on how to make sure you can have a thriving marriage while handling a business?

• 33:54Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, there's two possible scenarios. One is the spouse works in the business and two is they don't. The second one is what we've done. Sharon never one time has worked here. She's never been apart. She never had a responsibility at Ramsey. From the time it was a card table in our living room all the way to where it is now. But I did discover, and you and I have talked about this before, I'm looking for principles of success, financial and otherwise, in scripture because, you know, I'm flat on my back and I'm like, okay, God, you're going to run this. And one of the things I found was Proverbs 31, who can find a virtuous wife?

• 34:37Dave Ramsey?

  For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her, which indicates that virtuous part, she's trustworthy.

• 34:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Dave Ramsey?

  This is not a flake. This is not a high maintenance princess. This is a, this is a person that's solid. He safely trusts her and he will have no lack of gain. And so the way that what we translated tactically out of that was

• 35:05Dave Ramsey?

  that we don't make major decisions anywhere in our life anymore than we did before I went broke. I've owned real estate, Sharon didn't even know where it is. And didn't even know what happened.

• 35:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 35:17Dave Ramsey?

  And not because I was hiding it from her. She just didn't care and I didn't care to tell her. And I was getting it done. That's my job. Her job is to take care of babies and we're just getting it done and dumb. Really dumb. So we don't make major decisions for forty years.

• 35:33Dave Ramsey?

  Without both of us being in agreement.

• 35:35Lewis Howes?

  That's for the business as well?

• 35:36Dave Ramsey?

  Everything.

• 35:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 35:38Dave Ramsey?

  But major is defined by ratios, right?

• 35:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What is a major?

• 35:43Dave Ramsey?

  In the early days, buying a twelve thousand dollar phone system was a major decision.

• 35:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Dave Ramsey?

  There were ten employees. And so Sharon comes down and doesn't want to. She's out running around buying groceries. I'm like, come by here. You gotta meet this phone guy. You gotta look at this. You gotta. She, I don't know nothing about phones. I don't care. I want you to look at this. It's a twelve thousand dollar decision. Twelve thousand dollars is a lot of freaking money. And yeah, it is. Okay. Well, make sure. Help me. Just. I want you to just walk in the room. And then I don't, I, I learned pretty quickly. I mean, she's got a degree in home act and she's a full-time mom.

• 36:13Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:13Dave Ramsey?

  And she's, so she's not a, a sophisticated business person.

• 36:18Lewis Howes?

  But she has powerful intuition and.

• 36:19Dave Ramsey?

  And what she always says, she's real country fried. She says, I got common sense.

• 36:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Dave Ramsey?

  And she does have common sense. And so I'll, I'll ask her when we're driving away from having a meeting. I don't ask her what she thinks. I ask her how she feels.

• 36:33Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 36:35Dave Ramsey?

  And, and, and again, we always laugh because it's a seven syllable word. And she goes, oh, I got a really good feeling about him. Okay, we're hiring that dude.

• 36:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 36:45Dave Ramsey?

  Uh, or nah, something wrong. It's a bad feeling. And I don't even know what that is, but every time I go against it, it costs me ten grand. So I quit doing it.

• 36:56Dave Ramsey?

  I don't know what that means. I don't know how God, the Holy Spirit is using that little hillbilly woman, but it worked out good. I'm just saying. So. Yeah, we don't do that. Before we're given a big gift. In the old days, $500 was a big gift.

• 37:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Dave Ramsey?

  Of generosity. Now it's got more zeros on it. And so we say, okay, and, and my daughter runs our family foundation. So often, if there's a large gift involved, Sharon and my daughter will go visit the people. And walk around and feel the air and the organization. And then we can come back and Sharon can say, okay, I got a good feeling, or I don't have a good feeling. And, and my daughter's done all the due diligence and looking into the, you know, operational part of it to see if it's

• 37:35Lewis Howes?

  Deal, yeah, yeah.

• 37:36Dave Ramsey?

  If it's a good investment for of God's money in this ministry, but, um, all that stuff. But, you know, same exact thing. So, you know, copy your paper. She's no longer involved in purchasing.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:46Dave Ramsey?

  But, um, and she has no idea what we spent on coffee here, which would blow her mind. I would 1100 people. I mean, can you imagine my coffee bill and stuff, that kind of stuff. So it's like stuff like that. But if we get ready to build one of these buildings.

• 37:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh, she's, she's checking it out. She's feeling it out, everything.

• 38:00Dave Ramsey?

  She sits in with the architect and with the builder and then we pull the trigger and we go execute it. But, uh, and she's like, I think that architect will be fine. I like her. She's sweet. She, and I think she's smart. And we walk away and we're ready to go. So, yeah, that's huge. That's how it works.

• 38:15Lewis Howes?

  So a lot of your business then, I'm hearing you say, is based on a feeling of your wife.

• 38:20Dave Ramsey?

  The big.

• 38:21Lewis Howes?

  The big stuff.

• 38:21Dave Ramsey?

  Single stuff. So no, not a lot of it. That would be 2% of it.

• 38:25Lewis Howes?

  Okay. The big, the big single stuff, yeah, yeah.

• 38:27Dave Ramsey?

  If something's big. In the early days, it was a hire.

• 38:29Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 38:30Dave Ramsey?

  Hire's a big deal.

• 38:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:31Dave Ramsey?

  You know, when you hire your first 10 people, every one of them's a big freaking deal.

• 38:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:34Dave Ramsey?

  And so we would go to dinner with them and their spouse before we would hire them. And, and just, and tell, and ask their spouse to pray about it. And, you know, is this guy, is this woman or this man gonna be, that you, you think they work with these people across the table from you? And y'all talk about it. Because this, if y'all don't believe this is gonna work and you're just collecting a check, it's not gonna work. And we've done that from, we still do spousal interviews as the final interview. Uh, but it's not me and Sharon. It's the leader and their spouse go with the person we're hiring and their spouse. And, and we're pretty much already hired at that point, unless somebody really gets a red flag and they shoot, shoot up a flare. And occasionally a spouse, uh, on the hire or a spouse of the leader will save us from making a mistake.

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  I mean, at the end of the day, what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like if something feels off in that final interview, it doesn't matter how good they look on paper, where they went to school, where they worked before, they're not coming here.

• 39:28Dave Ramsey?

  Nope. So at the end of the day, it's a Cause I've, I've, I've, I've talked her into it a few times. Like, you sure? Cause this one's really good. Well, I'm not real sure. It's okay. Whatever y'all want to do. And I'm like, she'll back off, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then I get, then I got drama for the next six months. Cause I hired somebody I shouldn't have hired, you know? Wow. So I don't, I don't go against it. And, and sometimes I'll tell you one that really happened in the early days. We had a young guy. He was like a little model. He looked beautiful and he was as sharp as a tack. It's like everything you'd want. We go to dinner with him and his wife. It was like Ken and Barbie. You know, it was ridiculous. And, um, Sharon, the guy's like everything you, you know, and we come home and she goes, woke up the next morning, she goes, I,

• 40:09Dave Ramsey?

  there's, I really feel dumb saying this, but I've got a bad feeling about this. And he goes, and she almost never plays this card, by the way, which is part of being virtuous. I mean, 5% of the time. She's not crying wolf every day. 95% of the time. Cause if she was playing the card all the time, that would be the You want to trust her? Be the definition of not virtuous. You know, I mean, we've done a lot of good work to get to this point. Uh huh. We've already culled a bunch of bad flavors, you know? So Yeah. Uh, anyway, she, she, uh, woke up and, uh, I called the guy and I go, hey, um, we don't know what's happening, but I tell you what we're gonna do. We're just gonna push pause. We may, we're gonna revisit this in a couple of weeks. I didn't just run him off. Cause I couldn't. I was, he was too good. Yeah.

• 40:51Dave Ramsey?

  And he called me back six days later and he goes, he was like in tears. He's like, I, I've never met any people like you people. Y'all are weird. And I went, yeah, that's true. We are. I'm sorry. I'm, and he's like, no, I mean, I don't know how this happened, but I got a job offer this morning for twice what you were offering me. And I'm like, see, you weren't supposed to come. Wow. Go take that dude. Yeah. And he goes, yeah, but how did you? I said, I didn't. I didn't. I called Sharon and she like told you. It's like, but it wasn't that he was a bad guy. It was God had something better for him than us. Hmm.

• 41:32Dave Ramsey?

  And he told us to, you know, he gave through her sense or her, her Holy Spirit, common sense, or whatever you want to call it. This intuition, you know, and that's hap, that kind of stuff has happened over 35 years enough that you go, yeah, this is a good idea. Just trust it. Yeah. Just trust it. Yeah. It was good for him. It's so interesting that, you know,

• 41:52Lewis Howes?

  That energy and that spirit is something that continues to guide you today like it did in the early days as well, and it helps build what you have right now.

• 42:00Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, you change processes, but you don't change principles. People that never change principles, or that never change processes and change all their principles are called bureaucrats. That's what they do in the government. But entrepreneurs, we iterate, we change, we make up a new thing every day. But you don't change the principles that guide you, the values, the system, you know,

• 42:26Dave Ramsey?

  okay, I trust my wife, that's a principle. You know, I don't borrow money, it's a principle. And I don't change that. But, you know, when we started, there wasn't even an internet. So obviously, you gotta change processes.

• 42:40Lewis Howes?

  You talk about these six drivers in business in the book, Building a Business You Love. We talked about personal, there's purpose, people, plan, product, and profit, which you say profit is making money with integrity. Has there ever been a time where you were trying to make easy money? That it wasn't integrity, it wasn't making money with the value, the principles that you have, you're like, oh, that's a quick, quick thing I could do right there, easy money, as opposed to...

• 43:09Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, I made the mistake in the early days on radio of taking some ad endorsements that I wasn't proud of.

• 43:18Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 43:19Dave Ramsey?

  And every time I did the ad, I felt like a jerk. And obviously, they didn't work, hello. And so, they're not there anymore, and they didn't last very long. But I was trying to make an ad sale, because I'm a salesman. I was trying to make a sale. And so, I made the sale, and I didn't sell myself. I just sold them.

• 43:42Lewis Howes?

  You didn't sell yourself in the product of the business?

• 43:44Dave Ramsey?

  Exactly, exactly. And so, in those days, we came up with the metaphor, and we still talk to our sales team about it to this day, is if I wouldn't be really, really excited to tell my best friend's mother...

• 43:59Dave Ramsey?

  To do this?

• 43:59Lewis Howes?

  Nah, I'm not doing it.

• 44:00Dave Ramsey?

  I'm not doing it.

• 44:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:02Dave Ramsey?

  Cause my best friend's mother would knock a knot on your head. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm talking, that kind of, you know what I'm talking, the, the, just put it in that rather than, oh, cause you can justify your butt away and your integrity too. If you're not careful and we didn't ever do anything like,

• 44:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:15Dave Ramsey?

  perpendicular, like we didn't sell credit cards or something like that. You know, but we, but we did, you know, I did bring on products that are like, eh, it was a little slimy, I'm not sure about that, it's, uh, but the money's good, you know, and so, but now we don't put anything on, even if it's not in our voice, even if it's not in a personality's voice. That, and, and we don't ask any of our personalities to say, you know, if you won't use this product, then don't, you know, don't put, don't put your voice on it.

• 44:44Lewis Howes?

  That's great that you guys do that because I think a lot of companies would just say, make as much money as you can, take whatever you can get. And, you know, at School of Greatness, there's a lot of stuff that I won't do. I don't, I've never been, not this is bad or wrong, but it's just against what I do. I've never been drunk or high, so I don't do any type of drugs or pharmaceuticals or things like that for me. Just cause it's not what I believe in for me.

• 45:05Dave Ramsey?

  Right.

• 45:06Lewis Howes?

  I don't do gambling stuff, I don't do any of those type of ads.

• 45:09Dave Ramsey?

  We don't either, yeah.

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  And it's just, um, a lot of money there though. A lot of people throw in a lot of money.

• 45:14Dave Ramsey?

  I mean, you know, the freaking sports betting, they, they'll write you big checks.

• 45:18Lewis Howes?

  Big checks.

• 45:18Dave Ramsey?

  For anything that's on the air, they don't even care who you are.

• 45:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:21Dave Ramsey?

  They've got an unlimited budget, I think.

• 45:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, we don't, we don't do, I mean, sports betting's a huge problem with our audience.

• 45:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's why they go into debt.

• 45:29Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, it's, it's breaking up people like crazy, it's a huge addictive issue.

• 45:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:34Dave Ramsey?

  And so now we're not gonna have so and so sports betting either. It was the same thing, I mean, that's one we would not have had in the old days either. But this is more like, okay, you know, this company, food's not really good at that restaurant.

• 45:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:49Dave Ramsey?

  But we're gonna send them over there anyway. You know, it's like, it's a restaurant, they got food, you know, but yeah, you know, but no, I, I don't, we don't do that. That, that, and that hasn't happened in 25 years.

• 45:57Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 45:58Dave Ramsey?

  But in the early days, I was, you know, trying to get some cash in the place and pay payroll.

• 46:03Lewis Howes?

  Of course, of course.

• 46:03Dave Ramsey?

  You know, and it's, it, that, I think that's when you're most likely to cut a corner.

• 46:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, when you're trying to survive or just stay afloat. How do you, um, I don't know, maybe this is a weird question for you, but, when you're making money with integrity, which you talk about in the book. And you say no to money, essentially, like someone's trying to give you a sponsorship endorsement deal, whatever might be an advertisement, and you're like, no, that's just doesn't doesn't feel right. How do you think about that spiritually for you about how either God is going to set you up for something greater, or you're not missing out on the opportunity? What is the spiritual mindset you have in that moment?

• 46:39Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, usually those things have real good short-term feeling and a horrible long-term feeling. Yeah. We had a major retailer that everyone knows, talked to us about 15 years ago. They wanted to take some of our, in those days, CDs and books and stuff and build a Ramsey package custom for them, which was really exciting. And the order was going to be 10 million dollars. And it was really exciting.

• 47:10Lewis Howes?

  It's a lot of money.

• 47:11Dave Ramsey?

  There's good margin, not great margin in it, but it was decent margin. And it was, the other thing was, it was really good branding, because we're going to be on major shelf position all over America in this major retailer. And people walk in and go, oh, look at that, so-and-so says Ramsey, yeah, Ramsey says so-and-so, okay, yeah. And that, so that had a, the shelf positioning had a value, unquantifiable, but, but it had a value, like buying a billboard, you know? And so, we're looking at that, looking at that, and we get really excited about it. We got way down into it, got into the contract negotiations on the final thing, and, and they said, we were printing packaging and re-recording stuff that was only for them, had their name on it.

• 47:54Lewis Howes?

  So you're already doing that work?

• 47:55Dave Ramsey?

  I was, no, I was going to do that in this deal. That was how the deal was set up. And then they come in and go, okay, yeah, and we have full returns. And I'm like, you want me to put your name on 10 million dollars worth of crap and send it over there, and you can send it all back if your eight-dollar-an-hour stock boy don't get it on the shelf and it doesn't sell?

• 48:14Dave Ramsey?

  Uh-uh, we're not doing, because what happens is I got 10 million dollars worth of stuff in the dumpster and I'm out of business. Uh, and so, we walked. You know, we talked about it, they said, "Well, that's our, that's our, that's our policy. Everybody does that." And I said, "Well, now you can't say that, because you found somebody that doesn't do it." So, I, you know, if you want to take some of our existing stuff, that when we take it back, we can repurpose it, we didn't print your freaking name on it, yeah, we'll do 10 million dollars worth of that with full returns, all day long. I can figure that part out, I can absorb that blow. But throwing it all in the dumpster, because it's useless, because you've got somebody's name on it that didn't want it anymore?

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:48Dave Ramsey?

  We're out of business with 10 million dollars. So, we had to walk. And, you know, that kind of stuff falls right in that category. That's the bucket for me, is you gotta go, "Ha, ha, ha." Uh. You're like, "Ah."

• 48:59Lewis Howes?

  Pull it back, yeah.

• 49:00Dave Ramsey?

  Ah, dead gum it.

• 49:01Lewis Howes?

  I know, right? One of the drivers of, of business you talk about in the book, is people. And for whatever reason, when I think about you, and the Ramsey brand, I think about culture. That's just the thing that I hear a lot. Every time I come here, I feel it, going back to feelings. Walk in, you feel like you're home. You've just got an energy here, and a presence of the people. I'm sure every now and then, people are off, or whatever, but, in general, the culture here, uh, is a beautiful feeling, going back to your wife's word. And, you see it. You know, the, just the inspiration, the quotes, the scripture, the, the attitude, the energy, the effort that people bring here, you know? People show up, they're, they're on time, they're organized, and they're positive, right?

• 49:46Lewis Howes?

  Uh, and it doesn't seem like people are overworked, or exhausted, or just like, "Ah, here 12 hours a day." They're, they have structure, and they have organization, but...

• 49:54Dave Ramsey?

  We go home at five, yeah.

• 49:55Lewis Howes?

  But, you gotta be in every day, and you gotta do your job, and you gotta get results. And you gotta be a good person. Um, and I feel like, that's where a lot of people struggle, is building the culture and the team. What would you say is the, the main things that have allowed you to continue to thrive culturally? If someone hasn't, is never gonna be able to come here, what does this place have, that most places don't have, that allow you guys to continue to thrive?

• 50:19Dave Ramsey?

  It's, it's very weird, but um, it does come down to, we don't tolerate. Um, and I don't want that to sound like a bully, but we don't tolerate it to be otherwise. Mm hmm. And so if someone does come in late, we're gonna talk about it. What's wrong? If someone's um, negative and grouchy to each other here or customer, what's wrong? Hmm. What's going on? Cause that's not who, we don't do that. And if you wanna be a we, we gotta fix this. Mm hmm. Otherwise, you don't get to be a we. And so, uh, cause the people that work here, they're, they're on it. They're game on and they're on time and they're excited and sometimes they have bad days or sometimes they go through personal stuff. Yeah.

• 51:03Dave Ramsey?

  You know, their, their spouse has cancer, they've got a sick kid, uh, you get a pass. Yeah, of course, yeah. That's great, okay? But, but we're gonna ask you, what's your problem? Wha- wha- why, what's going on? And why are you late? And uh, you know, wha- wha- well, the kid's sick, okay, I'm sorry, what's wrong with your kid? How can we help? Hmm. Okay, now we can, you know, but, but that's a temporary and a fixable thing. Uh, I chose not to come to work on time, isn't, you know, you get about one of those and. Really? You know, we're, we're not mean about it, but it's like, come on, man, I mean, really? Uh, act like you own the place. You know, the people that work here care and you know, can't be a J O B. You stand out like a sore thumb in this place. It, it's like, bing!

• 51:41Dave Ramsey?

  If something's off, it stands out and someone that, you know, we had a guy a, a few weeks ago blew up and, or a few months ago, rather, blew up in a meeting and started cussing at. Really? At two or three people in there and we're like, hey, I don't know where you think you are, but you're not in that place. Wow, yeah, yeah. You know, we sat down and he's like, well, I've just had it. You people don't know what you're doing and the leaders, yeah, I say, yeah, I guess you have. See you later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and sorry, man. And, you know, he, he just, um, he, he didn't, he, his spirit had left the building, he forgot to take his body with it. Hmm. You know, and so, um. And you made sure his body left as well. Yeah, and we helped him. Yeah, well, you. You know, but yeah, we're not, we're not mean about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on, man, I mean, this is.

• 52:28Dave Ramsey?

  The people love working here because we don't do that.

• 52:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:31Dave Ramsey?

  And we were not, you know, we don't mind arguing with each other. We argue all the time about which play to call to win the Super Bowl. But not about you're calling me a jerk or you start calling my mother names or something. We're not doing that. That's just nuts. But that's normal in other places.

• 52:46Lewis Howes?

  What about if someone's really talented and they're actually driving the business growth? But they got a nasty attitude because undertone, they kind of, they got a.

• 52:55Dave Ramsey?

  They can't.

• 52:56Lewis Howes?

  They're just frustrated. They're kind of disgruntled. They're just.

• 52:58Dave Ramsey?

  We've got to, we gotta fix it or they can't stay.

• 53:00Lewis Howes?

  Really? So how important is attitude and energy?

• 53:04Dave Ramsey?

  It's more important than talent.

• 53:05Lewis Howes?

  Really? And over results?

• 53:07Dave Ramsey?

  Because what you're doing is you're shutting down all the other talent. You're shutting down everybody else. Everybody else is like, I don't want to, I'll do anything to keep from being in a squad with that guy.

• 53:15Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 53:15Dave Ramsey?

  I don't want to be with it. He's just, he's really good at what he does, but he's a complete flipping twerp. I just don't want to deal with him. And that stuff happens, you know, that happens at Ramsey and sometimes it happens because someone has just, again, their spirit left and we joke about that, but they really, their, their season is over and they didn't activate. They, they became disillusioned for whatever reason, and that can happen.

• 53:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:39Dave Ramsey?

  Um, does happen. And, um, you know, they, they, they get tired of my personality or whatever. I mean, that's okay. I understand that.

• 53:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:49Dave Ramsey?

  I mean.

• 53:50Lewis Howes?

  Don't be here then.

• 53:50Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, it's just because that kind of goes with the package. You know, it's like, so, you know, it's just that, that, but people, what happens is you get what you tolerate.

• 54:00Lewis Howes?

  Mm-huh.

• 54:01Dave Ramsey?

  Um, you know, and you get what you allow and Maxwell says, don't sanction incompetence.

• 54:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 54:07Dave Ramsey?

  And behavior incompetence is just like being incompetent at the actual task.

• 54:11Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 54:12Dave Ramsey?

  And so, uh, and that can destroy culture. And let me tell you, culture creates trust and stuff moves at the speed of trust. So this 1,100 people in Ramsey, we get the work done of about 4,000 people. Because the speed at which, because you don't have to look over your shoulder all the time because there's not a dagger coming at your throat.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 54:31Dave Ramsey?

  You know, and we, we, we bust it. And it's like, but it's like a team that's in a flow, a team that's in a zone where, you know, the quarterback knows he's okay to throw the ball because he's not going to get his knees taken out on the blind side. You know, that guy, that, that left guard's got him or that right guard's got him, depending on which way he's throwing, right? And so, uh, he, once he knows that, it makes his efficiency go up and it gives the guard that's making him, protecting him great pride and dignity because we say that guy's more important actually than the quarterback because without him, there is no quarterback.

• 55:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 55:06Dave Ramsey?

  And, you know, and we just, you know, the guy that ships books here, you know, when you ship a book at Ramsey, you probably could, could have saved somebody's marriage. You could have led somebody to God with that book. You definitely could have gotten them out of debt. They might be millionaires because you put that book in an envelope and shipped it out of here today. And you did it on time and the, the spirit on that envelope was fun and smiling.

• 55:27Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 55:28Dave Ramsey?

  Uh, not, I hate my job and I don't want to come to work today.

• 55:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow. The, the positive energy.

• 55:33Dave Ramsey?

  It's, it's there. I mean, that's God's spirit.

• 55:35Lewis Howes?

  Final, I, I have one final question, uh, because I'm, I'm running out of time here. Before I ask the question, uh, I want people to get the book, ramsysolutions.com slash build. You can go there and check this out or you can go to ramsysolutions.com. You can see the book. The book is called, Build a Business You Love: Mastering the Five Stages of Business. Um, and there are really kind of six drivers of business that you talk about on how to master as well.

• 56:00Dave Ramsey?

  Now, the six drivers push you through the five stages.

• 56:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 56:03Dave Ramsey?

  And that, this becomes the baby steps for small business.

• 56:05Lewis Howes?

  Ah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. It's, uh, really inspiring. I love the, uh, the golf stories and the golf analogies in the beginning as well, but, uh, if you guys are looking to launch a business, you're in a business that's not getting to the next level, make sure you pick up a few copies today, uh, and support the man here, Dave Ramsey with this book because it's really going to help you. Um, this is the final question because I know we're, we're hitting our time here. Uh, if you could have.

• 56:32Lewis Howes?

  We're talking about the emotional incompetence, I think you said Maxwell was talking about. Would you rather have someone, I mean, this is a, you probably wouldn't want either, but if you would, would you rather have someone who's emotionally competent, but lower level talent versus someone who's the highest level talent and just a little bit emotionally incompetent or a little bit of a bad energy?

• 56:52Dave Ramsey?

  Well, like you said, the answer is obviously to get both.

• 56:55Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 56:56Dave Ramsey?

  And to just solve for that in the interview and the recruiting process. But I'll choose, you know, the emotionally competent C-plus player because they'll get to A-plus when they're running with a bunch of other thoroughbreds.

• 57:09Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 57:10Dave Ramsey?

  You put them in the, put them in the stable with a bunch of thoroughbreds and they all like each other, the other horses will get them up, they'll get them moving. And, um, but if you put a donkey in there, um, they don't, them thoroughbreds don't like donkeys.

• 57:26Lewis Howes?

  Is there anything else, uh, is there any final words you want to say, Dave, for, for this conversation?

• 57:30Dave Ramsey?

  Yeah, I think that I, I am a huge small business guy. I, 54% of the gross domestic product in America today is created by companies that have 500 or fewer employees.

• 57:42Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:43Dave Ramsey?

  Small business mathematically, with arithmetic, is the backbone of the American economy, the free enterprise system, the ability to get up, leave the cave, kill something and drag it home and believe you can do it. The people that fight through the pain and the insecurity and the ADD and the dyslexia and the stuff that we all fight through to get to be who we is, uh, those are the heroes in the American economy. So anything we can do to help those guys, that's what I want to do.

• 58:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:12Dave Ramsey?

  Because I'm one of them.

• 58:13Lewis Howes?

  We appreciate you, Dave. Thanks for always coming on and, and sharing your wisdom and, and being so honest and vulnerable. Appreciate it.

• 58:18Dave Ramsey?

  Appreciate your friendship.

• 58:19Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate you. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyleasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money. This moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness.

• 59:01Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 59:45Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.