Left for Dead: Hohe Tauern National Park

In the early hours of January 19th, 2025 Kirsten Gurtner died of hypothermia on Austria’s tallest mountain. Her boyfriend and climbing partner, Thomas Plamberger, maintains his version of events - that he left Kirsten behind to get help - but not everyone believed him. Kirsten’s death and the circumstances surrounding it launched a global discussion focused on the phenomenon of “alpine divorce”, and how trusting your partner can sometimes quite literally mean the difference between life and death. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodes For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials: Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdark Support the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to this week’s partners! Bilt: Download the Bilt app and join the membership for where you live at http://joinbilt.com/parkKa’Chava: Go to https://kachava.com and use code NPAD for 15% off your first orderQuince: Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Whatnot: Download Whatnot today and get $20 off your first live purchase. Terms apply. Mint Mobile: Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/npad Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Danielle LaRock?

  John Bodman hated his wife and his wife hated him back. Neither had mistreated the other, neither had been mean or cruel. Both of them were nice, normal people, and that was the problem. Under English law, divorce required a criminal act, and it wasn't a crime to despise your spouse. So the two of them were bound together until one of them died, which is how John hatched his plan. John announced a summer trip to Switzerland, and his wife packed her bags. They checked into a hotel beneath a great glacier. John knew the region from happier days. He had stayed there before and remembered a particular hiking trail behind the resort.

• 0:46Danielle LaRock?

  About two miles up, there was a point in the trail called the Hanging Outlook. At its edge stood a low, crumbling wall and a sheer drop-off of more than a mile. Best of all, the ledge was totally blocked from view. A ridge came between it and the hotel. John slipped out around four in the morning to inspect the point, and it was just as he had remembered it. His plan was flawless. After breakfast, he asked his wife to join him for a walk, and she said yes. They set up out the trail and barely spoke. As they neared the outlook, Mrs. Bodman stopped and shuddered. John feared that she had grown suspicious. Then she turned and asked a question.

• 1:31Danielle LaRock?

  "John, don't you think that if you had been kinder to me at first, things may have been different?" He dismissed her. With a quiver in her voice, she asked if he regretted anything, and he said no. "Very well," she replied, her voice returning to a calm confidence. "I was merely giving you a chance. Remember that." John was confused. What did she mean, giving him a chance? She went on. "I will show you, John Bodman, how much I hate you. I have told all my friends in England that I believed you intended to murder me in Switzerland." John frantically tried to backpedal, but she continued. "I have warned the people at the hotel,

• 2:17Danielle LaRock?

  and when we left, two men have followed us. Any second now," she said, "they would be here." And before John could do anything, she bent down to tear shreds from her dress, scattered them around the ledge, and said, "Tell them, if you think they will believe you, that it was an accident." And then she threw herself over the edge, screaming the entire way down. When the two men arrived, they found John Bodman alone at the top of the cliff. He knew then that no one would ever believe the truth. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 3:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Whoa, I'm so sad for this episode.

• 3:16Danielle LaRock?

  Well, that, uh, we'll get to it, but was not a real story. That was a made-up story.

• 3:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  What?

• 3:23Danielle LaRock?

  So, yeah, apologies.

• 3:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  What are you talking about?

• 3:26Danielle LaRock?

  Uh, yeah, it's not real. But it's going to segue into our episode today and our topic today. Um, but, uh, before we get there, we have a couple of things to talk about that are really important. And that is that, um, if you have not seen our social media posts or received our emails, um, we are postponing our Your Neck of the Woods tour, the remainder of the tour. Uh, we had a fabulous time, the first leg of the tour. Our shows were wonderful and great. And, uh, when we returned home,

• 4:07Danielle LaRock?

  I unfortunately, uh, got some pretty difficult news with my dog Chaska. He has been diagnosed with lymphoma. And for that reason, um, things are really, really uncertain right now. And I'm trying my best to deal with his diagnosis and be there for him and, uh, spend all of the time I can with him, make sure I'm doing everything in my power for him at this time. So for that reason, um, we have decided to postpone the remainder of the tour until we gain a little bit more clarity on what's going on with him. Um, yeah.

• 4:50Danielle LaRock?

  So thank you, everyone, for your understanding and kind words.

• 4:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, yeah. It's not the right time for us to travel, and that is okay. And when we get an update, we, you will all be the first to know. But as of right now, it is postponed. Our tickets, you should have received an email by now if you have a ticket. If you have not, um, basically what that email is saying that your ticket is valid for our upcoming show dates. You do not have to repurchase a ticket. If you are not able to make those dates, that is totally understandable, and we, um, completely understand. Those tickets can be refunded. You just have to reach out to wherever you bought those tickets and let them know that you would like a refund instead of a ticket transfer.

• 5:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Um, so, once we have those dates, you can kind of officially decide if you can come or not. Um, but just know that the tickets you bought are good for our next shows.

• 5:51Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, um, yeah. So, thank you again for, uh, your understanding and the outpouring of support for both me and Chaska at this time has been very appreciated. And, uh, I also, like, I've thanked you in private, of course, but just for your support and understanding of, you know, because this affects you too. Um, and I love you. Thank you.

• 6:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Chaska is so much more important. I love you too.

• 6:30Danielle LaRock?

  So, um, yeah. Well, um, I can't, I can't believe, can I just say, I am perpetually in awe of how many tears a human body can produce every day.

• 6:48Danielle LaRock?

  Absolutely crazy.

• 6:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, how many? The limit does not exist.

• 6:53Danielle LaRock?

  I'm like, it's gotta stop, right? Like, I have to run out? No. Um, yeah. So it's been really, really tough the last few weeks, but, um, Chaska's in good spirits still. And, um, as of this recording, and we're doing the best we can. I am not well. He's looking at me like, this again.

• 7:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  What's wrong with you?

• 7:15Danielle LaRock?

  This again.

• 7:18Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, well, now it's your fault. So, uh, it's not Ian, it's not blue with you. Um, but anyway, yeah. So we just wanted to address that up top, and we will be keeping people in the loop as much as possible when we have the information. There's just like, it's like a black hole of uncertainty right now, and we know that can be kind of difficult too. Yeah, but anyway.

• 7:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  We are actively talking to the venues and figuring things out in the back, um, behind the scenes, but it just takes a little bit, a little bit of time to get this all figured out. So just bear with us while we, while we figure it out and navigate it.

• 7:55Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Okay, so.

• 7:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  So you told us all a fake story.

• 8:00Danielle LaRock?

  I did. I did. Uh, back to that. I'm like, what was I saying?

• 8:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm thrown. I'm like, wait, I was so ready for this story. I'm like, what an icon.

• 8:11Danielle LaRock?

  Uh, that woman, yeah. So, right. That story is fictional. It was written in 1893 by a Scottish-Canadian writer named Robert Barr. And whether or not you've heard that story before, I mean, it was, um, it wasn't a super famous story, but it was pretty well-known for a time. So people may or may not have heard of it specifically, but I think people may be really familiar with the title of this story because of a flurry of social media stories and videos

• 8:56Danielle LaRock?

  that really came about in early 2026, so earlier this year, because he titled this story "An Alpine Divorce." And Alpine Divorce had a big moment this year, earlier this year, because of the story that I'm going to share today, which is very real. So.

• 9:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's so interesting. I didn't know that Alpine Divorce, that saying wasn't coined from this event and that it was actually something from a lot earlier. So that's interesting.

• 9:29Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, rooted historically at least. And it has been attributed not just to this particular story we're going to talk about today. And I don't know if you were online in that period of time or like that was your algorithm, but a lot of people were also coming forward with stories of their own, like Alpine divorce type of situation. So we'll get into that a little bit later, um, later on. But, um, for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term Alpine divorce, uh, essentially, it's basically when a couple goes hiking or climbing or out into the wilderness in some way, shape, or form, and their significant other, usually a boyfriend or a husband,

• 10:14Danielle LaRock?

  abandons the woman in the wilderness. That's generally.

• 10:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  With the intention for them not to survive.

• 10:23Danielle LaRock?

  Or with the intention, it's like wilderness ghosting. It's like, I don't care what hap- this is the end of our relationship, and I don't care what happens to you. It's like, yeah, that's essentially what's happening. So Alpine divorce became a sort of shorthand for the act of ditching a significant other in the mountains, using Mother Nature to end the relationship with no consideration for the other person's safety. So whether or not they were like, "I want you to die," I don't think is, like, it's, it's basically like, yeah, they just don't care. They don't give a shit, um, which is awful, obviously. But the start of this trend wasn't Robert Barr's short story. It was another story set in the Alps,

• 11:06Danielle LaRock?

  as far as the start of the Alpine divorce trend in social media. Yeah, it's not like, oh, yes, this short story from 1893, and everyone, it's having a moment. Um, so this time, it hit social media with this story, which took place in Austria, and of course, is very real.

• 11:28Danielle LaRock?

  On the night of January 18th, 2025, webcams pointed at Austria's tallest mountain could see two headlamps climbing the peak. But later, they only noted one light coming down. Today, I will be covering the death of Kirsten Gertner and the ongoing legal case deciding whether or not her boyfriend was to blame. So let's just get this out of the way right now. This is a story based in Austria. There's a lot of pronunciations in here. I'm not gonna slay, alright? Give me a fucking break. I'm going through a lot, but I'm gonna do my best, of course. I just want to say that now. So, let's begin by getting to know Kirsten.

• 12:13Danielle LaRock?

  She was born in the early 90s in Austria and grew up in the shadow of the Alps. By the age of five, she had stood atop their local mountain called Unstenberg and absolutely loved it. She was a child that was like, kind of born and bred in the outdoors and took to it very quickly. Kirsten's mother, Gertrau, remembers she was always very curious and a very outdoorsy child. Her ice-blue eyes sparkling with wonder and an awe of the natural world. If Gertrau warned her about anything in the outdoors, whether it was like, dangerous wildlife, or like, you know, just the stories that parents share, cautionary tales or whatnot, instead of being fearful, Kirsten would ignore the warnings

• 12:57Danielle LaRock?

  and go check things out for herself. So she wasn't easily deterred. As she got older, she took up trail running. As an adult, she took every available route up her local mountain, the Unstenberg Mountain, and all the different routes it had to offer that averaged about four miles long with 4,000 feet of elevation change. And let's just say, Cassie and I-

• 13:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Are not cut out for that.

• 13:24Danielle LaRock?

  Recently, we haven't told anyone, but we were humbled recently. So this is impressive to us.

• 13:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  We won't tell you why, but just know, we were humbled. We'll tell you why once we make our comeback, and we'll come back to the story. But I have a lot of respect for trail runners, especially trail runners that are running at this type of altitude and trail and level.

• 13:51Danielle LaRock?

  Well, one, one of the times, her mom had bragged about, you know, her, her daughter's ability and stuff. And she noted that one of her best times coming down was 38 minutes.

• 14:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Over four miles.

• 14:07Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, are you flying?

• 14:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 14:11Danielle LaRock?

  So anyhow.

• 14:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  Makes me that in an hour.

• 14:14Danielle LaRock?

  I, I was on pole. Okay. Oh, we can't talk about it.

• 14:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  We can't. You guys can't know this about us. Yeah, we want you to respect us.

• 14:26Danielle LaRock?

  It was not pretty. That's for sure.

• 14:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Just know, we have a trail tale of our own.

• 14:32Danielle LaRock?

  I'm gonna submit it anonymously, and just to like, temperature gauge people, you know? It's like, oh, anonymous wrote this in and see what people are like, oh my God, like, how embarrassing. It's like, yeah, wow. I wonder who that was. Anyhow, okay.

• 14:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wasn't us.

• 14:49Danielle LaRock?

  So Kirsten, of course, loves the outdoors. And in her twenties, she began working outdoorsy jobs. She got a job with a mountain town tourism office promoting hiking trails and ski resorts. She spent some time in a ski town too, but eventually she moved home to Salzburg and took up a job as a project manager. When COVID hit and Austria locked down, Kirsten spent time outside. Posts on her social media from those years are an endless scroll of stunning views, mountain lakes, snowy peaks, valleys, and tiny villages tucked in those valleys. Every once in a while, there would be a picture of a summit, like her first 3,000 meter peak. And in one post, she quoted the British mountaineer Sir Martin

• 15:32Danielle LaRock?

  Conway, who said, "Each fresh peak ascended teaches something." Clearly a fan of type 2 fun, Kirsten also got into trail racing, both as a competitor and a volunteer helping organize different race events. Trail running in the Alps is a brutal challenge, but according to her friends, Kirsten loved helping other runners push themselves and set personal bests. Unlike many mothers before her, Gertrau saw Kirsten's mountain adventures and suggested her daughter take some safety precautions. She asked Kirsten to buy a bivouac bag, essentially a lightweight emergency sleeping bag that mountaineers can use in place of a tent when they're caught out overnight. And Kirsten agreed, you know,

• 16:16Danielle LaRock?

  obviously, that's a great idea to have some sort of emergency supplies. So she bought herself a bivouac bag, a first aid kit, and some aluminum rescue blankets to just have with her when she went out. By 2024, Kirsten's outdoor adventures became more and more serious, and her social media posts reflected that with pictures of intense mountains and exposed ridges, along with some photos of her sporting a climbing helmet. In that February, someone new appeared on her Instagram. She posted a selfie from a ski area, ski goggles pushed up on her forehead to reveal her smiling face. The caption read, "Days like these

• 16:56Danielle LaRock?

  could last forever." And someone named Thomas left three heart-eyed emojis in the comments. A friend of Kirsten says the two met at a trail race, and Thomas later said that they had met online. But regardless, however they met, they bonded over a love of the outdoors and became a couple soon thereafter. Thomas Plantberger was 36 and a cook at a retirement home in Salzburg. He was also a hardcore mountaineer and a peak bagger. He'd climbed Mount Blanc and the Matterhorn twice, and he once tackled 11 Swiss peaks in just nine days. On Instagram, he wrote indifferent motivational mottos with hashtags like hashtag

• 17:41Danielle LaRock?

  passion and hashtag never give up. One of his favorite climbs was Austria's highest mountain, the Grosse Glockner. At 12,461 feet, reaching the peak requires crossing glaciers and technical mountaineering skills. By Thomas's count, he had climbed Grosse Glockner around 14 times. That spring, Thomas started teaching Kirsten to climb. He led and she followed, roped in from above. She called it her beginner's course in alpine climbing. The roots got bigger fast, like the 19 pitch climb on a wall called the Tristle Wand, after which

• 18:22Danielle LaRock?

  she admitted to being a bit proud of herself for tackling something so big so early on in her climbing journey. Then, that fall, the south face of the Doshtein, about which she later wrote, "1,000 meters of pure climbing bliss. I never would have thought that after just six months of alpine climbing, I would be able to climb this entire face." One of Kirsten's friends said she seemed happy after she met Thomas, and maybe even the happiest that she had ever seen her in a relationship, which is positive. But then, in December of 2024, Kirsten mentioned a new goal to her mother, the Grosse Glockner,

• 19:06Danielle LaRock?

  Austria's tallest. It would be her first attempt on the mountain, and they weren't planning to take the usual way up. Grosse Glockner is part of Houten National Park, which is the oldest and largest national park in Austria. And when I looked that up, I was like, oh, the oldest park. I wonder when? And it was in the 80s, 1980s, which is really interesting. Um-

• 19:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  That is interesting.

• 19:30Danielle LaRock?

  Anywho. At around 450,000 acres, it's home to more than 300 peaks taller than 3,000 meters or around 10,000 feet. It's a stunning park in the heart of the Alps, and it plays a big role in Austria's longstanding culture of mountaineering. Mountains cover about two-thirds of the country, and the Austrian Alpine Club claims over 700,000 members, nearly a tenth of their total population. And it's like, I get it. I mean, you're in the Alps, and it feels like most people are gravitate towards mountaineering when you are surrounded by beautiful mountains like that.

• 20:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  What else are you gonna do?

• 20:13Danielle LaRock?

  What else are you gonna do? Honestly, yeah. Mountaineering culture has traditionally been built on trust, experience, and respect for the environment. You don't need to check in or file a permit to climb in this national park. You don't need to hire a guide, and you don't need to file plans with a ranger. Anyone can climb in the park, which has been a part of the appeal. Yet Austria, like other mountainous regions, has reported a shift in their climbing culture. More and more climbers seem to be fueled by ego. Their trips outdoors are aiming to set personal bests for miles hiked or peaks bagged in a day. Some of this grumbling, I would imagine, is a response to the growing popularity of

• 20:55Danielle LaRock?

  the sport. Around 9,000 people summit the Grosse Glockner every year, and one of the most common complaints about it is how crowded it gets at the summit. But another element of this culture shift is the impact that ego-driven climbing can have on hiking parties. An Austrian hiking guide interviewed by The New York Times described a common scenario: "Experienced hikers, often men, pushing their partners and friends to go faster, to climb higher, to get over any concerns they might have. As a result, people find themselves in unsafe situations." And the guide referred to that type of scenario as "toxic alpinism."

• 21:38Danielle LaRock?

  The usual route up the Grosse Glockner is not the hardest technical climb out there. We've definitely discussed more rigorous climbs in episodes past, but any trip into the alpine zone can be dangerous. There are narrow exposed sections you cross snow and ice over, and the weather can turn on a dime. Over 20 people have died on the mountain in the last 20 years. But Kirsten must have felt comforted to have such a qualified partner. Although not a professional guide, Thomas had taken just about every route up this peak. I mean, he had climbed it about 12 times before. He's been up and down it a

• 22:19Danielle LaRock?

  bunch. The previous fall, he'd climbed the technical north face over snow and ice, and the year before that, he'd done an overnight ascent with his ex-girlfriend. In short, he knew his way around this mountain, or at least that's what he had said. And on top of that, the mountain itself is somewhat well-connected. There's good cell service all the way up the south side, which is the route that most people climb. And there are webcams throughout the valley pointed up at the Grossglockner 24/7. It's like a live feed. You can go check in on it at any time.

• 22:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's cool.

• 22:54Danielle LaRock?

  But the couple would make two decisions that would make Kirsten's first climb up the mountain significantly more difficult. The first decision was that they were not taking the well-traveled, normal route up the mountain. After the seven-mile approach hike to a warming hut, they decided to take a turn onto a much harder route called the Stulgrat. While the normal route offers a gentler slope and established paths across snowfields, the Stulgrat becomes an exposed granite ridge with a drop on either side. It's beautiful and can offer rewarding views, but it requires non-stop technical climbing for a third of a mile.

• 23:36Danielle LaRock?

  At the sketchiest spots, it offers bolts, iron stakes, and steel cables to help assist climbers along the way. Along the route, a big yellow sign offers a warning. If you took more than three hours to get here, turn back. Your life depends on it. In the summer, it takes most climbers around three to five hours to climb all the way to the summit via this Stulgrat route. Which brings us to the second decision that the couple made. They chose to climb the Grossglockner in the winter. On Saturday, January 18th, 2025, Kirsten and Thomas left the parking lot at 6:45 a.m. And for a January day, it was mild, blue skies, and only a light wind.

• 24:21Danielle LaRock?

  But January in the Alps is snowy. A nearby observatory records an average of almost 70 feet of snowfall every winter.

• 24:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow.

• 24:31Danielle LaRock?

  So they climbed that morning up snow. Kirsten was carrying a splitboard, a snowboard that can be split into skis for an uphill climb and snap back into a snowboard for a descent. As you know, you are a splitboarder.

• 24:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  I am. I'm a new splitboarder over the past two years. Excited to get back out there this year, though.

• 24:51Danielle LaRock?

  Well, it's a cool, it's a cool piece of gear, but it was heavier and slower going uphill than the touring skis that Thomas was using. Kirsten was also wearing soft snowboard boots, like the ones you would get, you know, you would rent at a snowboard shop or ski shop, um, or at a resort. Along the approach, Thomas and Kirsten ran into another climber. That climber later told the court that their pace was completely normal. Kirsten trailed a bit behind Thomas, but Thomas appeared to be keeping a close eye on her, calling back in to check in on her, you know, the normal type of stuff. They're not going to be side by side the entire time.

• 25:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Right.

• 25:33Danielle LaRock?

  It's not unheard of to climb Grossglockner in the winter. Clearly, there was another climber that they had run into. They're not the only people up there. An experienced few try for the summit every year, but Thomas and Kirsten's route and timing still raised eyebrows. Thomas later told a jury that they'd planned to reach the summit at 9:00 p.m. And when he said that, New Yorker magazine reporter William Finnegan watched several mountaineers in the courtroom glance over at one of, one another, like, kind of like, what?

• 26:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Why would you summit at 9:00 p.m.?

• 26:08Danielle LaRock?

  Why would that be your goal, like your plan? You know, that doesn't sound right. Darkness descends before 6:00 p.m. in Austria in January, and it's not common to plan to be on a peak at 9:00 p.m. in the middle of the winter. Even if everything went according to plan, that meant the two of them would have been climbing for 14 hours by the time they reached the summit. And then they would have the whole descent to go.

• 26:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, then you're, you're only halfway there of your day.

• 26:38Danielle LaRock?

  Right. There's also the fact that Kirsten brought her splitboard, which makes it seem like she thought that she would be snowboarding down. I mean, that makes sense, right? But there is no scenario that someone would be safely snowboarding down from the summit of Grossglockner in the dark, let alone someone who has never been up there before. She's never been there before.

• 27:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Danielle LaRock?

  That was the plan Thomas shared in court. We're not sure what plan the two had made in the moment, but we do know that around 10:00 a.m., Kirsten and Thomas reached the warming hut and that junction in the trail with the signage, warning. The other climber they'd met along the way turned right, following that normal route, but Thomas and Kirsten decided to turn left. What happened next was pieced together in court after Thomas came down alone. For context, it was by far the most dangerous climb Kirsten had ever attempted. And because they were doing it in the winter, all of the infrastructure that could have made it easier was buried in the snow, including those iron stakes and steel cables and bolts and things like that I described earlier.

• 27:48Danielle LaRock?

  She was also climbing with her heavy splitboard fixed to her backpack, making every step that much more difficult, and their progress was slow. One of the few landmarks on the way was the yellow sign that warned climbers, if it took you longer than three hours to get here, turn around. It had taken them five hours to reach there from the warming hut. Prosecutors would later argue that this was the point of no return, that Thomas, as the more experienced mountaineer, should have turned them both around. But they kept going and things kept getting worse. Beyond the warning sign, the route gets even more technical. Climbers rope up for multi-stage pitches and clip into bolts for safety.

• 28:32Danielle LaRock?

  In the winter, the rock was covered in scattered ice and snow, and Kirsten kept slipping. She was climbing in soft snowboard boots and borrowed crampons that didn't exactly fit properly. At one point while Kirsten was climbing, her rope got stuck, causing her to fall a short distance and swing into the rock below. Along the way, she got a little banged up and lost a glove. So Thomas gave her one of his extras, but that's about the extent of the extra gear that he brought himself. He later said that they had almost no food on the trip, just a couple bags of gummy bears and little to no emergency equipment.

• 29:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  For a 14-hour, one-way trek, they had no food?

• 29:13Danielle LaRock?

  In the winter.

• 29:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  In the winter.

• 29:16Danielle LaRock?

  Austria's highest peak. Yeah.

• 29:25Danielle LaRock?

  At 5:22 p.m., Kirsten's phone dialed 149. The emergency number for mountain rescue in Austria is 140. So it seems like she had tried to call for help with frozen fingers and missed the last digit. Thomas claimed to know nothing about that call, but it is on record. At 6:07, so shortly thereafter, Kirsten texted her mom. She told her that they were already on the way down. And Gertrude, now in hindsight, believes that her daughter just wanted to keep her from worrying because in reality, they were nowhere near that point. Now that was past 6:00 p.m., the sun had set,

• 30:05Danielle LaRock?

  which meant Kirsten and Thomas were suddenly visible to the rest of the world on that webcam with their headlamps. At 6:10 p.m., two headlamps appear on Grossglockner webcams, some mounted on nearby hotels to provide the year-round view of the mountain. Photos from that night show Kirsten and Thomas making slow progress towards the summit. Their lights inch upward past a landmark known as the pulpit, which was still hundreds of feet below the peak. But then around 8:00 p.m., the lights stopped moving. They seemed to be stuck. At the same time, the weather was getting worse. Winds picked up, gusting over the ridge at roughly 45 miles an hour.

• 30:50Danielle LaRock?

  The temperatures had dropped below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, and climbers who were on the normal route had already turned back and given up their summit attempt. Other people on the mountain had noticed the lights, and at around 8:15 p.m., climbers reported them to police. And the police sent a search and rescue helicopter. Around 10. Yeah, this is like, it's so heartbreaking because of what is about to happen. Like, people are very well aware that they're there.

• 31:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, and obviously very concerned if there's people who are just seeing their lights up there. It's very telling that the conditions and the location that they're in, all of the surrounding climbers were like, hey, this is bad news. You can't be up here. We need to... Not even, it sounds like not even knowing who these people were up there. They're like, no. This is not what you're supposed to be doing right now or where you should be.

• 31:44Danielle LaRock?

  Exactly. So around 10:40 p.m., the helicopter arrived over the Stulgrat and quickly found Kirsten and Thomas on the ridge. The two were moving slowly and had been hiking and climbing for now 16 hours. The helicopter made six separate passes over the couple. The rescue crew was looking closely for a signal from the climbers. They knew that in the mountains, two arms raised in a V means we need help. Or there's a signal to say we don't need help, which is one arm up and one arm down in a diagonal line. Kirsten and Thomas gave neither signal. They never looked up at the helicopter, and they kept moving.

• 32:29Danielle LaRock?

  Later in court, the judge would analyze the video captured from the helicopter. Kirsten was searching for handholds to move safely up the mountain. She moved less than a foot in five minutes. Like, they are crawling.

• 32:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Danielle LaRock?

  Thomas would later say that they didn't signal to the helicopter because they weren't in an emergency situation. He said Kirsten denied trying to call for help and insisted that she was fine. By midnight, the helicopter had returned from the mountain, but the Alpine police were desperately trying to get a hold of these climbers, of Thomas and Kirsten. Thomas's car was the last one left in the parking lot, so an officer named Matthias had been calling his phone for hours, leaving messages. And this would become one of the most disputed moments in the criminal trial to come. At 12:35 a.m., Thomas called Matthias back. The officer asked why they hadn't acknowledged the helicopter,

• 33:31Danielle LaRock?

  and Thomas replied, because everything was fine. You know, he's like, we're good. Like, why, we don't need a helicopter. Later, on the witness stand, Matthias described Thomas, assuring him that it was not an emergency call, saying, we don't need anything here. All is all right. Despite Thomas's dismissal, Matthias texted his phone after the call, "Do you need help?" with three question marks, like very relentless.

• 33:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, "I don't believe you. This is a bad idea. You shouldn't be up there. What are you doing? Like, do you need us? We are here."

• 34:05Danielle LaRock?

  Mm-hmm. He didn't receive an answer. And then he texted again, and another time as well. Still, no responses. And to that, Thomas says, well, he just put his phone on silent and stowed it away to save the battery, because he had given his answer. He was fine. He didn't want to keep going back and forth.

• 34:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  I mean, that's possible. There's a lot of times when I'm hiking where I just put my phone in my backpack and I don't look at it for a long time.

• 34:34Danielle LaRock?

  Right. I don't think it's, they're debating whether or not he truly did that. I think he did do that. It's just like, why the fuck did you do that?

• 34:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 34:43Danielle LaRock?

  You know? Um, anyway.

• 34:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't know if I would put my phone away if I actively had helicopters over my head and police calling me, though. You know, I'd be like, people are trying to contact me at this very moment. Maybe I'll have my phone on hand.

• 35:00Danielle LaRock?

  Or maybe I should listen to them. Like, I don't know. And that's where, we'll have this conversation at the end, I'm sure, but, you know, it kind of goes back to that toxic alpinism phrase that that, that guide had said of like, "No, no, everything's good. Everything's good. Everything's good. I can do this. I'm, can handle this," when clearly there are issues and you need to put your ego aside for a moment, because everyone around you is saying, "Hey, this is actually not good." But anyway, I mean, there's helicopters in the air. There's hikers that are calling it in.

• 35:41Danielle LaRock?

  There's police officers trying to contact you. Every, everybody around you is-

• 35:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, this isn't normal for a regular day out in the mountains. Like, people are very concerned. Something's wrong.

• 35:53Danielle LaRock?

  And they have no idea that, who, who they even are, what their skill level is. And that's, I think, even more telling.

• 36:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, that doesn't matter for the conditions you're in.

• 36:06Danielle LaRock?

  It's even more telling, because this could be like, one of the most skilled mountaineers out there, and they have, and they don't know. They're just like, it doesn't, that's irrelevant, you know? Let alone Kirsten's there. She's never been on this mountain. She just started her climbing journey, you know, a few months beforehand. And-

• 36:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  She's a mountaineer, but she's relatively new.

• 36:30Danielle LaRock?

  Right, right. Okay, continuing on. Just before midnight, in that phone call with Matthias, a blur of light had appeared near the summit of Grossglockner on the webcams. After the phone call, no headlamps could be seen at all. By that time of night, the nearby webcams actually slowed down their updates. They take new photos about every 30 minutes, instead of kind of like, round the clock. So it is 24/7. It's just slower updates, as in the early morning hours. At 1:30 a.m., headlamps reappear on the webcam about 50 meters beneath the summit. At that point, Kirsten had

• 37:12Danielle LaRock?

  suffered complete physical exhaustion and could no longer stand or climb. And here's how Thomas described that moment in court. He said the two of them agreed that he would go for help, because they both knew they couldn't survive the whole night up there together. At one point, he laid down beside her to share warmth, and she actually yelled at him and urged him to go immediately for help. Like, she was communicating, you know, "This is bad, and we need help, and I can't make it. You need to get out of here." He said that her shouting saved his life. Around 2 a.m., Thomas left Kirsten just beneath the summit. At 2:30, webcams show his headlamp moving down the

• 37:57Danielle LaRock?

  normal route on the other side of the mountain. Thomas said the descent was difficult, and he actually ended up vomiting a couple of times out of exhaustion, but moved as fast as he could, likely on his skis. He was aiming at a mountain hut that, while it was closed for the winter, offered an emergency shelter for anyone caught outside. There was no light left remaining where he left Kirsten. Sometime after 3 a.m., from the mountain hut, Thomas called Matthias, the police officer that had, was texting him and calling him earlier. Matthias initially believed that the call was good news at first. You know, when he got the call, he thought it was Thomas

• 38:40Danielle LaRock?

  checking in and being like, "Hey, know you were worried earlier. It's all good. Just wanted to kind of give you an update." So he kind of had that inclination when he was receiving the phone call. But Thomas told him that he had left his girlfriend on the mountain, and immediately, Matthias leapt into rescue mode and assembled a team. He also asked Thomas if he could go back for her. You know, "Are you in a space now that you've kind of recouped and recovered, and you can now go back and get her down?" And Thomas said, "No," and that he needed to rest, and he was near total exhaustion himself. Strong winds forced the first helicopter rescue attempt away, and

• 39:24Danielle LaRock?

  the second effort had to touch down almost 2,000 feet beneath the summit, with rescuers climbing the rest of the way on foot. They finally reached Kirsten at about 10 a.m., but it was too late. She was just 33 years old and had died on the mountain from hypothermia. Officer Matthias was part of the rescue crew, and he documented the scene, photographing details that would complicate Thomas's story in court. But one heartbreaking detail they found was in her backpack. Remember the bivvy bag and the emergency supplies that her mom was pretty adamant that she purchased?

• 40:04Danielle LaRock?

  Well, she did purchase them, and she had them in her pack, and they were still packed away and untouched. So she had an emergency blanket. She had a bivvy bag, hand warmers, and they were all in her bag.

• 40:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  So she was just sitting outside in the elements without using any of this gear?

• 40:25Danielle LaRock?

  Yes. Soon after, Kirsten's memorial service was held at a funeral home in Salzburg. The invitation was signed by her family and by Thomas. The funeral home set up an online page for condolences, and they poured in from friends and from strangers who heard her story. But some of the messages weren't condolences. They were accusations against Thomas, blaming him for Kirsten's death. Funeral staff had to monitor the page closely, eventually adding a plea in bold at the very top of the page, urging people to "please refrain from accusations and assumptions" on her memorial page. Online, however, in different social forums, people did not refrain

• 41:10Danielle LaRock?

  from their opinions and thoughts on this situation.

• 41:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  I remember seeing all of that happening in real time.

• 41:18Danielle LaRock?

  Exploded all over the place, like just-

• 41:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  People had a lot of opinions on what went, what went down here.

• 41:25Danielle LaRock?

  Mm-hmm. And as this story spread, so did the phrase "alpine divorce." For nearly a year, investigators worked through the evidence, the forensic medical report, both climbers' phones and sport watches, photos and videos, witness interviews, and a report from an Alpine expert. Thomas, through his lawyer, denied any wrongdoing. It is exceedingly rare for mountaineering accidents to wind up in criminal court. People die in the mountains every year. Given the risks, hikers and climbers usually assume personal responsibility for their safety in the eyes of the law, but this case was different. On December 4, 2025, prosecutors in Innsbruck announced the

• 42:08Danielle LaRock?

  charge against Thomas, grossly negligent homicide, which carries up to three years in prison. Grossly negligent homicide refers to cases when someone caused a death by acting in a, quote unquote, "in an unusual and conspicuously negligent manner." Prosecutors listed nine alleged examples of Thomas's negligence in this case, and some of which, I'm just going to read kind of bullet point style here. "Taking Kirsten on a winter climb far beyond anything she had ever done before and without proper equipment. Not turning back at the warning sign. Not calling for help before dark. Not signaling the helicopter. Silencing his phone when people were trying to

• 42:51Danielle LaRock?

  reach out and help him. And leaving Kirsten around 2 a.m. without moving her out of the wind, without her bivvy bag or rescue blankets, and with her heavy pack still strapped on her back." It was a long list of all of the opportunities Thomas had to turn things around, and further fuel for the angry coverage of Kirsten's death online and in the media. But two weeks before the trial was set to begin, Kirsten's mother spoke up. She was angry about how the media was portraying her daughter as this silly little girl who had let herself be dragged up a mountain by

• 43:30Danielle LaRock?

  a man. Kirsten, and Ger, so Gertrude, Kirsten's mom, was very adamant about sticking up for her daughter and saying, "Kirsten trained really hard. She and Thomas, she and Thomas made decisions together in previous climbs and in this climb." And she believed that her daughter's death was the result of a tragic chain of events, but she didn't want the blame to fall squarely on Thomas's shoulders, which is what-

• 44:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  So she was kind of sticking up for him a little bit?

• 44:05Danielle LaRock?

  I think she was sticking up for him, but- From what I gather, I think her primary, like, just the way that people were painting the scenario was, yeah, they were like really going hard after Thomas. And it was like, kind of like a witch hunt-y feeling of like, fucking burn him at the stake. Like, it's all his fault. But also, I get the feeling that people were like, she was so, like, she was left to die and she was so helpless and like, she had no idea what she was doing. And it's Thomas's fault because it was like, she was so reliant on him. And I think

• 44:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, she was an incapable woman.

• 44:45Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 44:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Didn't know what she was doing or had any experience.

• 44:49Danielle LaRock?

  Right. So I think Gertroud was like, yeah, a lot of things went wrong and Thomas like, did make mistakes. But my daughter was not helpless and she was a capable person. And she, yeah, she may have never climbed this mountain before, but she is a very experienced outdoors woman and had a good head on her shoulders.

• 45:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  She didn't want the story to diminish how experienced and athletic and capable she was.

• 45:21Danielle LaRock?

  Right. Which is how it was starting to spin out of control.

• 45:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  I remember that.

• 45:26Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So I think that was like her biggest thing. And I mean, I think she also maybe felt bad for Thomas, you know? I, I'm not sure. But I think it was more so of like, just making sure her daughter wasn't painted as like a helpless victim.

• 45:43Danielle LaRock?

  And for the people online who were demanding justice for Kirsten's family and being like, hey, Thomas needs to, you know, pay for this. It was a complication because her family didn't think that Thomas was guilty. So it kind of left like people like, oh, it just was like a weird

• 46:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Are we barking up the wrong tree here?

• 46:07Danielle LaRock?

  Right. Yeah.

• 46:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 46:10Danielle LaRock?

  But in February of 2026, his fate was left up to a judge. Norbert Hoffer of the regional court in Innsbruck would hear the evidence and decide on a verdict. Hoffer was a mountaineer himself and a member of a volunteer mountain rescue team. Legally, he specialized in mountain cases like avalanches, ski accidents, and climbing accidents. Thomas, facing the judge, began the case for his innocence with an opening statement. "I am infinitely sorry for what happened and how it happened. I loved Kirsten." His lawyer, Kurt Jelenik, called it a tragic accident.

• 46:47Danielle LaRock?

  He said Kirsten was a strong athlete, that the two of them had planned this climb as equals, and that when she collapsed, she had urged Thomas to go get help. Like, Thomas didn't abandon her maliciously because he wanted to break up with her or wanted her to die or whatever. And Thomas described himself as a self-taught hobby mountaineer who had learned by watching videos. He claimed he wasn't in charge of their climbs, that he wasn't a guide, and he had no authority to tell Kirsten what to do. Like, he wasn't a hired professional guide that should be held liable. He's like, I'm just her boyfriend who had more experience climbing. I'm a self-taught climber. I'd never claimed to be a professional.

• 47:33Danielle LaRock?

  Then Gertroud was called to testify. The judge went through a list of the mountains Kirsten had climbed and noted there were no winter trips in any appearing on that list. No snow and ice like the Stollgrat demands in, in January. And Gertroud agreed that as far as she knew, Kirsten hadn't climbed in winter before, either there or elsewhere. She had never discussed with Kirsten how hard the Stollgrat would be or what boots she would wear. The judge asked whether Kirsten's strength ever suddenly gave out. "No," Gertroud replied, stating that Kirsten was a biter.

• 48:14Danielle LaRock?

  She never gave up, and she wouldn't have let anyone take her anywhere against her will. "I told her, you can always stop. In an emergency, you make the emergency call." And to the people judging Thomas from afar, Gertroud had this to say. "It's easy to be a hero from your own living room." Which

• 48:36Danielle LaRock?

  I understand.

• 48:39Danielle LaRock?

  Late in the day, a surprise witness walked in, which kind of is like, I think you'll remember this too, because this was like the, I think the fuel that really set this ablaze, at least online, from what I saw. Thomas's ex-girlfriend, a well-known outdoor athlete named Andrea. So to hear her put it, when things got tough on climbs, Thomas could get grumpy and he would tell her not to be such a baby or a wimp, like, kind of buck up. It's not that bad, type of thing.

• 49:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  I hate that.

• 49:13Danielle LaRock?

  And they had actually climbed Grosse Glockner together in 2023. And while it was in the summer and it was on a different route, so a different type of year, time of year, different area of the mountain, the climb also went through the night. And after arguing about which way to go, tensions were fried. They had been climbing for a while. Andrea was dizzy and exhausted. Her headlamp was dead and she cried out, basically screamed and signaled at Thomas, like, hey, help, I'm, you know, I'm in a bad situation right here. And she said, then suddenly, he was gone. She said that from there, she got herself down the mountain and never climbed with him again. So he

• 49:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  So he just abandoned her on the mountain?

• 50:00Danielle LaRock?

  Same mountain. And he totally, yeah, left her. That is like an Alpine divorce situation. Like, I know we're debating whether or not like this Kirsten-Thomas one was, but like, based on her testimony and her version of how this went, I feel like that's, you can't get more true to

• 50:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  To completely abandon your climbing partner on a mountain is so unacceptable.

• 50:27Danielle LaRock?

  When they're also actively screaming for your help.

• 50:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, and in any scenario, it sounds like this mountain in particular requires climbing gear and roping in, and it is intense and you need a climbing partner. It's not like you're climbing Pacman Adnok here in New Hampshire and you get mad at each other and one person goes down. Like, this is a this is very intense skilled climbing. You can't abandon your partner on the mountain in the dark with no light.

• 51:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. After however many hours of climbing and it's like, I don't care how mad, I mean, it, it appears that they were probably in some sort of argument or disagreement or were pissed at each other. It doesn't matter. That does not, you can, you can, you can take up that argument later when you're both safe. But anyway. So about that, the judge later said her testimony had nothing to do with Kirsten's death and that he left it out of his reasoning. But it was the kind of detail

• 51:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Chose a pattern.

• 51:33Danielle LaRock?

  Well, and it was the kind of detail that the internet could never forget. You can't be like, hey, actually, that doesn't matter. It's like, it feels like it matters the most.

• 51:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  You just brought a character witness to show that this man abandons women on mountains. And then you're like, oh, this isn't relevant.

• 51:49Danielle LaRock?

  To this case where this man abandoned a woman on a mountain. Anyway.

• 51:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Connect the dots.

• 52:03Danielle LaRock?

  Then they brought in an Alpine expert to offer an audit of Thomas's mountaineering. He called Thomas extremely strong and experienced, but pointed out plenty of errors, including his rope technique and his communication. He called his communication with rescuers absolutely incompetent. And then the judge brought the attention back to Kirsten and the story that Thomas told about where he had left her. Thomas told Mathias that he had left her on a gently sloping ledge in view of the summit, that he'd secured her in place with her harness, and that at one point, he had cuddled up beside her for warmth. And that was when she was like, no, like, get out of here. You need to go get help.

• 52:45Danielle LaRock?

  Judge Hoffer pulled out a photograph of Kirsten as she was found because, remember, photographs were taken of the scene. And she was not curled up in a ball tucked away from the wind, like you may have expected, based on his portrayal or description of the scene. She was upright, pressed against a nearly vertical slab of gray rock on one of the steepest parts of the mountain. She was hanging from her harness, her back bent at an angle that no one would choose, with her face turned up towards the sky. Her feet hung free, her boots were unlaced, and her gloves were gone. Her heavy pack with a bivvy bag still inside was strapped to her back.

• 53:26Danielle LaRock?

  Officer Mathias also reported that there was blood on the rocks above her body. There was no room on that rock for two people to lay side by side. So Judge Hoffer said to Thomas, "I find it difficult to reconcile your version of events with the images that I have before me." And to that, Thomas didn't have an answer, so he just didn't reply. From there, the judge began to speculate. One hypothesis is that Thomas was telling the truth about where he left Kirsten. She had been closer to the summit, but when hypothermia set in, she became disoriented and tried to navigate down the dark slope on her own. Still clipped in, she fell and found herself hanging by her harness.

• 54:07Danielle LaRock?

  As for the blood, it could have been the result of the injuries Kirsten had sustained to her hands and hips after falling lower down the mountain. While online discourse would fixate on this particular detail, the judge didn't. Kirsten's cause of death was of hypothermia, and he focused in on that. The last explanation, which the judge offered himself, was that Kirsten had become too exhausted to climb the last pitch to the summit. Thomas, determined to succeed, tried to pull her up the pitch himself using a rope and her harness. Judge Hoffer suggested he may have tried for up to an hour and a half, judging by the headlight, the headlamp scene on the webcam and just like the progression of that.

• 54:50Danielle LaRock?

  But without formal search and rescue training and the knowledge of how to set up a pulley system, Thomas was unable to pull her up. And so exhausted, he left her dangling there as he went down the mountain. So he's suggesting like, hey, all this, like, no, leave me here, go get help. And like, all that never even happened. And he was like, like, she was in really bad, a bad way, way before. And he tried to summit regardless and was like, I'll just come back to her. And then when he came back, he was like, oh, fuck, like, she's either dead or dying.

• 55:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  And then just abandoned her there and didn't call for help.

• 55:32Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 55:34Danielle LaRock?

  So the judge put this all to Thomas, like all of these, the, the different scenarios and said, hey, do you have a better explanation? Cause this is what I'm seeing as options of, as to what happened, based on everything I'm hearing and seeing and examining.

• 55:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Danielle LaRock?

  Thomas was silent, you know, when he was asked for further clarification and his attorney requested a 10 minute recess. When they returned, Thomas delivered his reply. I understand you and the scenario you are considering, but I didn't leave Kirsten behind at that point. So he's basically saying, no.

• 56:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, you're wrong. This is what happened.

• 56:13Danielle LaRock?

  Even though it's like, I don't know. Why wouldn't you just say that? When he's like, hey, so it feels like maybe this happened. Do you want to elaborate and tell me I'm wrong?

• 56:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  And he's like, I need to talk to my lawyer.

• 56:26Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, okay, that's sketchy.

• 56:29Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 56:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  But, okay.

• 56:31Danielle LaRock?

  By the time the judge withdrew to make his decision, it was dark outside and snow was gently falling past the courtroom windows. Judge Hoffer came back in and announced his verdict and he took his time explaining, starting with something that surprised some people in the room. "I don't see you as a murderer," he told Thomas. He called him an excellent alpinist and suggested Thomas hadn't left Kirsten behind to die, but to find help. But the gap between Thomas and Kirsten's abilities was enormous. Thomas's inability to see that put them both in an incredibly dangerous position, made worse by an attitude the judge described as "keep going at any price." Had Thomas acted differently,

• 57:16Danielle LaRock?

  Kirsten could have survived. And then he delivered his verdict. Thomas was found guilty of gross negligent manslaughter. The court summary of the verdict listed the reasons for the conviction. Thomas had been the de facto leader of the trip with the responsibility that that comes with that role. The climb was poorly planned. It wasn't called off in time. No emergency call was made despite ample chances to do so.

• 57:44Danielle LaRock?

  Some of her equipment was inadequate or not utilized. The court found that Thomas concealed or downplayed how difficult the route really was and that he left Kirsten believing the summit and the hut on the other side were within reach and that pushing on was the only way to go. The court said Kirsten didn't have the experience to judge the situation, although they acknowledged she could have made an emergency call herself. And it's like, it seems like she tried.

• 58:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  It does seem like she tried.

• 58:15Danielle LaRock?

  With the 149, 140 thing. Yeah. And it was only one time. And so I'm not, who knows? Who, who knows what happened?

• 58:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  And it feels like maybe it could have happened while he was summiting and she was left behind. And she was like, this is, and tried, but she had already re-in, reached.

• 58:33Danielle LaRock?

  But that was at, so that was at.

• 58:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or what time did she make that?

• 58:38Danielle LaRock?

  Cause she made that, let me just refresh my memory. I want to say it was around six, but I want to be sure. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, no, okay. At 5:22 is when she had made.

• 58:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  That original call.

• 58:51Danielle LaRock?

  That emergency attempt, or at least the attempt. And then at 6:07, she texted her mom and was like, hey, all's good. We're, we're on our way down. But in reality, they weren't even close to being at the summit.

• 59:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 59:04Danielle LaRock?

  And then at 6:10, they, um, were seen on the webcams for the first time because it started to get dark. And then around eight o'clock, the light stopped moving. And then remember the helicopter was coming at like 10:40, 10:45 and was like, hey, do you need help? Do you need help? And they were, they witnessed both of them.

• 59:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 59:29Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So it seems like she tried to make an emergency call four hours, five hours before the helicopters came and witnessed both of them, like making really slow progress. So anyway, so that's kind of the timeline.

• 59:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  I wonder if at the point of the time that the helicopters were there, because you mentioned she only moved a couple of feet in a really long period of time. I almost wonder if while the helicopters were trying to signal them, if she was already disoriented and that's why she didn't make any attempt.

• 1:00:04Danielle LaRock?

  I believe that to be true.

• 1:00:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Because otherwise I would think that she would acknowledge them in some capacity.

• 1:00:12Danielle LaRock?

  It just seems to me that that was on Thomas. Not only because he seemed to be more with it, but because he was actively receiving, communicating, and then ignoring calls to his personal phone. Um, so, yeah. Well, the sentence called for nine months in prison. Four of those months were converted into a 9,000 euro fine and the other five months were suspended with three years of probation.

• 1:00:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  So no jail time at all?

• 1:00:44Danielle LaRock?

  None. In practice, Thomas was very unlikely to spend any time in jail at all. And the court took into account his clean record, the loss of his partner, and the toll of the public debate on social media that it had on him.

• 1:00:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh no.

• 1:00:59Danielle LaRock?

  It's be sad.

• 1:01:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  He has a good future. I don't want to ruin his future. He only murdered a woman.

• 1:01:05Danielle LaRock?

  Well, he didn't.

• 1:01:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  He didn't murder her, but.

• 1:01:08Danielle LaRock?

  Can't say that.

• 1:01:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Can't say that. I know. But like, it was only a woman who died. Don't ruin his future.

• 1:01:16Danielle LaRock?

  Oh my God. It's like, he was bullied online. He shouldn't go to jail. He's hurt, his feelings are hurt. What the fuck is that? Like, sorry, but that's ridiculous.

• 1:01:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Crazy.

• 1:01:30Danielle LaRock?

  That's over crazy reason. Like, just don't even say, just don't say that. Okay? Don't piss people off, please. Um, anyway, both sides, interestingly, appealed the ruling. Thomas appealed the conviction on the grounds that it should be overturned completely, maintaining his innocence. And prosecutors appealed the sentence because it was too lenient. They were like, hey, what the fuck? Um, someone died. Okay. So, and it is his fault and he's not going to prison for at all.

• 1:02:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or being held accountable, like pretty much at all.

• 1:02:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. It's like probation for three years. Okay.

• 1:02:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  And pays a fine.

• 1:02:11Danielle LaRock?

  And Kirsten lost her life.

• 1:02:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  For like littering.

• 1:02:14Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. It's just, do they?

• 1:02:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, there's fines for littering, not probation, but.

• 1:02:18Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. Well, yeah. Right.

• 1:02:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Littering in a national park.

• 1:02:23Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, yeah. So both sides have different complaints about the ruling. Um, but as of this recording, the conviction isn't final because it's going through those, you know, rounds of appeals. And, um, so it's kind of TBD on what is going to happen with that. But at least you have the information up until this point. But the case left awake in the media and online, catapulting the topic of Alpine divorce into debates on mountaineering forums and all over social media. Many alpinists condemned Thomas's actions, asking why he hadn't stayed with Kirsten and tried to survive together in her bivvy bag and emergency blanket. Some feared the repercussions of the ruling. Answering a question from the

• 1:03:08Danielle LaRock?

  BBC, one UK climber said, quote, "At 54, I know an equal number of climbers who have died climbing and I expect any one of them could have sued someone or other for their death. But the foundation of climbing and mountaineering is trust. You have to trust yourself and others and criminalizing these decisions would also be the death of trust."

• 1:03:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  I can see that. I can see that argument. And I've kind of been thinking about it myself as well, because when you go out into these, into these environments and mountaineering, you are accepting a certain amount of risk. And if we're prosecuting people every time a person dies, I think that it can get pretty murky there because you're going out there and you're with a partner and you want everything to go well. But sometimes, as we know, the environment isn't going to cooperate and, and true accidents happen. And I think it could create a lot of fear in the climbing community. Uh, however, that being said, in this particular circumstance, the fact that there were actual rescue helicopters meters

• 1:04:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  from them throughout this ordeal and the fact that he had access, he had a direct phone number to help and never called.

• 1:04:24Danielle LaRock?

  Direct line.

• 1:04:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  A direct line, you know, and, uh, and obviously he had reception because he was receiving them and responding, um, barely, but was. And I think that it does get a little different here, but I get that argument of we can't prosecute every single time a person dies because they are assuming a certain amount of risk when they go out there. Uh, but of course there are circumstances where I think that changes.

• 1:04:52Danielle LaRock?

  You know what this, uh, episode kind of reminds me of a little bit? It was a bonus episode I did years ago on Akankawa.

• 1:05:03Danielle LaRock?

  Remember the woman who, she was the only woman in a climbing party in South America? And she perished and there was a lot of questions around her death and

• 1:05:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  There was kind of that toxic alpinist conversation that was spoken in there where it's more likely where a group of men climbing are more likely to take higher risk than if women are part of the group as well. We had like a conversation with that.

• 1:05:37Danielle LaRock?

  And remember her body when it was found, because it wasn't found for years, revealed a different story than what they had said had happened.

• 1:05:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Danielle LaRock?

  And it was a whole thing. That story is crazy. So, and I still don't know really what I think happened, but if you're interested, it's a subscription story. But anyway, well, back to Alpine divorce and the sensation that it kind of exploded on social media. TikTok went viral of a woman sobbing and picking her way down a rock formation by herself. And she kept saying like, he left me alone. He left me by myself. And she's crying. And it gained a ton of attraction, like millions of views and likes and reactions.

• 1:06:25Danielle LaRock?

  And a ton of different comments of people sharing their similar stories as to what this video was depicting. A website called thedaily dot published a piece on Alpine divorce that connected the TikTok with the Austrian conviction, the story, as proof that this phenomenon was very real. The New York Times reported that the wave of posts appeared to have been triggered by this Austrian case of like, hey, actually, this has happened to me as well. More and more stories just like it spread across the media. The Guardian talked to a woman whose partner left her on Angel's Landing in Zion National Park, took a summit photo with her and then hiked down with a woman that he had met on the trail.

• 1:07:09Danielle LaRock?

  The woman didn't hike for a year afterwards, believing that something was wrong with her. Austrian guides and rescuers told the Times that they had seen versions of that type of thing for years, like an injured woman on an e-bike whose boyfriend had left her after an argument. But not everyone was comfortable with the framing. Alaskan writer and Iditarod racer Blair Braverman was quoted as saying, personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I'd be more worried for him than me. I think it's interesting that the term assumes that the woman is the one with less capability. Like when people are saying Alpine divorce, it's like, oh, a woman is being left behind and injured and scared and alone.

• 1:07:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  And she's saying, I'm the most experienced one on that mountain. And if someone's leaving me, Godspeed.

• 1:07:58Danielle LaRock?

  Good luck. Yeah, I'm worried for you. Kirsten's own mother had insisted repeatedly and publicly that her daughter was nobody's naive passenger. However, you feel about this discourse and whatever your personal experiences are with similar situations, it's worth revisiting the short story in the introduction. In An Alpine Divorce by Robert Barr, a husband plots a murder in the mountains and his wife plots her own suicide to implicate him in her death. These are premeditated, quite literally, in a storybook sort of way. And for some people, it is easy to see that kind of intent in Thomas Plamberger's actions.

• 1:08:40Danielle LaRock?

  He ditched a previous girlfriend on the same exact mountain once before. And with Kirsten, he ignored multiple obvious, even literal signs to turn around. And it's also worth acknowledging how amazing this is, but rescuers proactively and persistently sought them out. Helicopters flew over Thomas six different times. They found his phone number and called him, texted him, and practically begged him to ask for their help. Yet he did nothing. For some people, that is simply too much to explain away with the crime of negligence. But others point to a popular phrase, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Thomas saw himself as a climber and a good one at that.

• 1:09:26Danielle LaRock?

  He wrapped up a lot of self-worth in his capability in the mountains, his ability to climb farther and faster. And he was unwilling to see when he was out of his depth, unwilling to accept that he needed help, unwilling to turn around. And some call this ego-driven climbing or toxic alpinism. It's not fueled by the intent behind Robert Barr's short story, but it can have the same results. It can create a culture in outdoor communities to push yourself, to keep up, to stop whining. Success is measured in miles and summits. To give up is to fail. And you wind up with a lot of people in the outdoor world who are unwilling or unable to call it and to turn around, no matter what the cost.

• 1:10:11Danielle LaRock?

  Not when a summit is that close. This kind of behavior results in a lot of close calls that don't make it to the nightly news. In Robert Barr's story, the truth goes over the wall with the wife and the husband is left standing at the edge, knowing that no one would ever believe him. On the Grußglockner, it's hard to say what the truth is. A court has given its answer and an appeals court may give another. Kirsten's mother has given hers, that her daughter was strong and that she chose to be there and that no one dragged her anywhere. The internet, of course, has given a million answers of their own. Gertrude has been dealing with her grief through skiing, visiting places where she and Kirsten once skied together,

• 1:10:55Danielle LaRock?

  looking up at the mountain Kirsten stood atop of when she was five. After the verdict, the Austrian Alpine Club put out a reminder to its climbers, there is always some risk in the mountains and honest assessments of your own abilities matters. And on the Stollgrat, there still stands a large yellow sign. It's written in German and in English for anyone who makes it that far. If you took more than three hours to get here, turn back. Your life depends on it.

• 1:11:28Danielle LaRock?

  And that is the end of my story.

• 1:11:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, I'm glad you told it because I didn't know a lot of these details. I kind of just knew from article headlines and a couple of readings here and there. So I'm glad you told it. I have complicated feelings about what happened because for my take, and again, I don't know, this doesn't, this doesn't mean it's fact. But from the way you told it, for me, it sounds like he didn't intentionally go up there to harm her. However, once they got up there, I think that he took her into rain in a place that he wanted to go, knowing she didn't have experience, thinking it was fine because he did, which was a mistake.

• 1:12:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Especially because she has no winter experience, I think is huge because climbing in the in the summer and climbing in the winter is very, very different. And very different elements. And I think once he got up there, it sounds like he probably got frustrated. Frustrated and annoyed based on his ex-girlfriend's testimony. It sounds like he disregarded her needs entirely and continued on. And probably an ego thing. And it eventually got to a point where he pushed it too far and things got bad. And he, I think he was negligent in this whole thing, whether it was intentional or not. I think he was negligent

• 1:12:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  and someone died because of it. And I think you have to be held responsible. I'm not sure he went out there to purposely harm her, but that was the result.

• 1:13:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, it's difficult, I'm sure, especially for her family, even though they are, you know, kind of sticking up for Thomas in a way. It must be difficult to reconcile with the fact of like, yeah, this was a series of unfortunate circumstances or whatever. She said a tragic chain of

• 1:13:35Danielle LaRock?

  unfortunate events or whatever. And yeah, we don't think it's, he intentionally did any of this, but he also didn't prioritize her.

• 1:13:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Not at all.

• 1:13:45Danielle LaRock?

  At all. And that's shitty, you know, in any, to boil it down even to the bare bones of any sort of relationship. And like in any circumstance, to totally ignore what's best for your significant other, even if she was like, I can do it.

• 1:14:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or I'm okay. Clear signs. There had to be clear signs before that. It's not like hypothermia kicks in in one minute or exhaustion kicks in. Suddenly you're great and then you're not. It's a slow progression. And I think that I can see how like maybe his family sticking up for him in the case where the internet is coming at him like Alpine divorce. You did this intentionally. You brought her into a place she wasn't comfortable. But this woman was a mountaineer and she was out here, but not having winter experience is huge. And I think

• 1:14:41Danielle LaRock?

  And even if she did, everyone could get over their heads and have things happen to them and all of that. So, I don't know.

• 1:14:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  I think mistakes were made left and right. I think he wasn't holding himself accountable. I don't think he was a good climbing partner. I don't think he was a good significant other. I think ultimately she went into the mountains with someone she thought she could trust. And it turns out that she couldn't and that he had himself in mind and not her. And it ultimately cost her her life because of that.

• 1:15:13Danielle LaRock?

  Yep.

• 1:15:15Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so um, tough, you know, really tough one. But I, it has been, I think, on all of our radars.

• 1:15:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  For sure.

• 1:15:27Danielle LaRock?

  Because it's so recent and it made the rounds everywhere, even beyond the outdoor community algorithm, you know, people who aren't climbers or interested in the outdoors caught wind of this. So I felt like it was time to do it. And I, I was kinda, I was kinda waiting to see like, after the appeals and all that, to try and give it like a complete, you know, bow on the end of the story. But um, yeah, I just want, I thought it was time.

• 1:16:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, I'll be keeping an eye out for sure. I'll be curious what the appeals courts do and what happens with the case.

• 1:16:09Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know. What are your feelings? And I don't know, like, if you have feelings on this or not, I do. But for, I totally understand the prosecution saying, hey, this isn't enough, like, we need more here. But for him, it's like, just take, just fucking Kirsten died.

• 1:16:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  He made out like a bandit.

• 1:16:34Danielle LaRock?

  He did. Like, why are you pushing it? Like,

• 1:16:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's pouring salt into the wound, I think. And what, because you want a clean record? Sure, whatever.

• 1:16:44Danielle LaRock?

  Or to clear your name? It's like, the damage is done, my guy. People have their-

• 1:16:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like someone died under your watch. End of story.

• 1:16:52Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, like, take what you got. Like, I think that, like, the audacity to even be like, actually, no. I'm, I don't agree with this. It's like, are you going to prison? No?

• 1:17:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  And for him to outwardly say, I wasn't a leader, I wasn't a guide, I'm not responsible here. It's of the two of you, you were the way more experienced climber here. You did have a responsibility here. You had a responsibility for each other when you went out. And I'm sure if the roles were reversed, it would have been different. You know, it's just, you had a responsibility to take care of this person and to watch out for them, and you didn't. And they died, and as a result, and you have to take responsibility.

• 1:17:39Danielle LaRock?

  And to that, I also say, or think, you know, he's saying that in court, like, I'm not a, it's like, I'm sure shit, he was making the calls and leading their decisions on the mountain. He, I'm sure he found, thought of himself as a guide and the one calling the shots and responsible boots on the ground.

• 1:18:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, and a climber saw him ahead of her, too.

• 1:18:02Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  So, he's clearly not lagging behind, or, and he's the one picking the route and making the first steps.

• 1:18:12Danielle LaRock?

  To Kirsten. He's not deferring to Kirsten, to make the ultimate decisions, is what I'm saying. So I just find it very rich, that in court, he's like, don't look at me.

• 1:18:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  I wasn't in charge.

• 1:18:24Danielle LaRock?

  I wasn't.

• 1:18:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, you made a lot of decisions.

• 1:18:27Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, okay. Well, yeah, I just wanted to kind of get your thoughts on that, but. All right, well, thanks, everyone, for listening and once again, for your understanding. While I navigate some pretty tough waters and I will be doing my best to show up as normal as possible for recordings and things like that, even though I had to bow out of the tour for now. And also, lastly, I have received hundreds of your messages and I just wanted to say thank you for sending them. And sorry, I can't get back to all of them because it's tough.

• 1:19:12Danielle LaRock?

  But I appreciate you sending them and they do, I do take them with love. So, thank you. All right.

• 1:19:22Danielle LaRock?

  Gotta get the fuck out of here.

• 1:19:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  All right, on that note, we'll see you all next time.

• 1:19:27Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 1:19:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Enjoy the view.

• 1:19:31Danielle LaRock?

  But watch your back.

• 1:19:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye, everyone.

• 1:19:33Danielle LaRock?

  Bye.

• 1:19:36Danielle LaRock?

  Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more NPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark. For more stories just like this one, with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.

• 1:20:15Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, hold on. Hold on, wait. I prepared. I have the pronunciation video right here. Is it Armin?

• 1:20:25Danielle LaRock?

  Like, how the fuck do you say that?

• 1:20:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Ho-ton?

• 1:20:32Danielle LaRock?

  Ho-ton? Like, I can't, my-

• 1:20:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Ho-ton?

• 1:20:36Danielle LaRock?

  Ho-ton? What? Doesn't even sound Austrian.

• 1:20:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:20:42Danielle LaRock?

  And the words, the two words, don't look like that. Ho-ton?

• 1:20:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Ho-ton?

• 1:20:50Danielle LaRock?

  Ho-ton?

• 1:20:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Ho-ton?

• 1:20:53Danielle LaRock?

  It's two words. I would say this, like, ho-torn, torn, ho-torn.

• 1:20:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Ho-ton?

• 1:21:01Danielle LaRock?

  H-O-H-E, space.

• 1:21:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  H-O-H-E.

• 1:21:05Danielle LaRock?

  Space. T-A-U-E-R-N. That's so weird.

• 1:21:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Buck.

• 1:21:10Danielle LaRock?

  I'm just gonna say, ho-torn. Consume me. Okay, um, okay.

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