The Man Who Made 5 Million Burritos (Reheat)

Is the perfect burrito a feat of engineering or art? We debate burrito construction and the Los Angeles/San Francisco rivalry with Jesse Thorn (founder of Maximum Fun and host of Bullseye) and Evan Kleiman (host of KCRW's Good Food). Matt Yglesias (cofounder of Vox Media and author of the Slow Boring newsletter) compares Chipotle burritos to iPhones. And then, Dan and cookbook author/YouTuber Kenji López-Alt take some calls: A wife objects to her husband's embarrassing food hacks, and Kenji explains the science of tomato storage.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship, full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frill seafood shacks

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:41Dan Pashman?

  Hey, it's Dan here with a two-part reheat for you. Two episodes in one. Part one came via request from a listener named Doug. He writes, "You had a great show about burrito places in California. I was able to go to Al and Bee's on a drive through LA during the pandemic. It was amazing. As I recall, you had a debate about layered versus stir-fried? Maybe it was San Francisco style versus LA style? I wanna try some of the other places." Well, Doug, we're gonna reheat that episode for you right now. And by the way, the refried beans at Al and Bee's in Boyle Heights in LA, best refried beans I've ever had in my life. So, I'm happy to revisit my California burrito odyssey. Then later on, another Sporkful episode to share when friend of the show, Kenji Lopez, Alt, and I take your calls and questions.

• 2:25Dan Pashman?

  We litigate a marital conflict involving loud burrito eating. See the link there? We'll discuss how to find a decent corn tortilla and we'll cover the right way to store tomatoes. Should they be refrigerated? That's a big one. Kenji will tell us the answer. And hey, learn from listener Doug. He sent in a request. Now he's going to hear the episode he wanted to hear. So thank you, Doug. And if you want to do what Doug did, drop me a line. We take requests. I'm at hello at sporkful.com. Tell me your first name, where you are, the episode you want to hear and why. Thanks so much and enjoy.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Burritos. As a native of San Francisco's Mission District, the home of the burrito, it is a food that has emotional resonance for me, much greater than any other food. You know, it's sort of like the equivalent of mom's pot roast for me.

• 3:17Dan Pashman?

  That's Bullseye host Jesse Thorne. He loves burritos.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  I grew up in Los Angeles, so my experience was formed by my Chicano friends, whose mothers would make them burritos when we would come home from school.

• 3:33Dan Pashman?

  That's Good Food host Evan Kleiman. She also loves burritos. But the LA burritos she loves and the San Fran ones Jesse loves are really different.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  The classic San Francisco burrito is, I'm going to say, nine inches long and pretty thick. I mean, the thickness of the top of a drinking glass, at least. It involves rice, which Southern California people don't care for. You get some avocado, you get some sour cream, you get some rice, you get some beans, you get some meat, you get some salsa.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  A beautiful flour tortilla.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Some great beans would be applied down the center, finely chopped onions and a very finely chopped chili. And then it was wrapped up and handed to me. So there was no rice, no guacamole, no sour cream. I never had a burrito like that until I went to San Francisco. I don't know, it was like, like four inches in diameter. And then I bit into it and there was all this stuff getting in the way between me and the beans. I just thought it was the weirdest thing ever.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  There is a thing called a burrito in Southern California, but I don't even count it. You might as well say that Philly cheese steaks are a New York food.

• 4:55Dan Pashman?

  Oh, snap. There's only one way to settle this. I gotta go to LA and San Francisco and eat burritos like it's my job. Because it is. So today on The Sporkful, that's what I'll do. Plus, when a burrito's fillings aren't spread evenly throughout, is that the fault of the burrito or the burrito maker? Jesse and I debate. And Evan and I throw down over whether a burrito is a type of wrap. Then later in the show, Vox's Matt Iglesias explains why a Chipotle burrito is like an iPhone. Stick around.

• 5:31Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Last fall, Nate Silver's site 538 did a burrito bracket to pick the best burrito in the US. And I want you to know, both the places I'm going to visit in California in this show made it to the final four. So let's begin where I began, LA. Evan recommended Al and Bee's, a burrito joint in Boyle Heights that's been there since 1966. It's now run by Al III, the founder's grandson. But it hasn't changed much. They got picnic tables set up in a little outdoor courtyard. While I was there, a street musician came by and I talked to some regulars.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  My name is Luis Abeta.

• 6:09Dan Pashman?

  Have you been coming to this place for a long time?

• 6:12Speaker 04

  They have been here since in the 60s. I've been eating here since the 60s.

• 6:17Dan Pashman?

  And what makes it better than other burritos?

• 6:21Speaker 04

  It's a combination of the sauce that they use, the meat, and the beans, of course. Not lardless.

• 6:32Dan Pashman?

  So give me some help here, Luis. So a burrito place, I mean, I'm sure it's not a very good one, but open near me in the New York, outside New York City on Long Island, not known as the burrito capital of America. And they're advertising on the window, "No lard." And I'm like, "That's not something to brag."

• 6:53Speaker 04

  Nothing at all.

• 6:54Dan Pashman?

  Don't brag about that.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  No. Because Mexican people are used to cook with lard. It's gotta be lard.

• 7:04Dan Pashman?

  Luis, I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a bit of a rivalry between Los Angeles and San Francisco burritos. Have you heard about this?

• 7:12Speaker 04

  Don't go to San Francisco.

• 7:32Speaker 05

  I've been coming here since I was five years old. I'll be 50 next year. And she's my daughter. She's been coming here since 1987.

• 7:42Dan Pashman?

  Wow, is that when you were born?

• 7:43Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 7:44Dan Pashman?

  Is this your son?

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 7:45Dan Pashman?

  So this is three generations here at Allen Bee's, right? And what's your go-to burrito?

• 7:51Speaker 05

  The bean and cheese with the red sauce.

• 7:54Dan Pashman?

  Your son is here, he's eating a hot dog. Does it concern you that he's not eating a burrito?

• 8:01Speaker 05

  Not yet, not yet. He's only two, so.

• 8:08Dan Pashman?

  Alright, so I would like one combination burrito, please. That's the shredded beef, right?

• 8:12Speaker 06

  Shredded beef, beans, cheese, and green chili are most popular burrito.

• 8:16Dan Pashman?

  And I'm also gonna have one chicharrón burrito, because, I mean, when's the next time I'm gonna be back here? Let's go crazy.

• 8:21Speaker 06

  There you go. Very good, very good choices.

• 8:29Dan Pashman?

  Wow. The beans, holy cow. They're so rich and smoky, garlicky, creamy.

• 8:39Dan Pashman?

  They're like liquid gold of beans.

• 8:46Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man, those refried beans. They cook them for 16 hours. And yes, they cook them with lard, like God intended. Bottom line, those were the best refried beans I've ever had in my life. Next stop, San Francisco.

• 9:19Dan Pashman?

  Before we get to the Bay Area, there's one big burrito issue we need to discuss. It's especially relevant to the San Francisco-style burrito. That's the bigger one that inspired most of the burritos you find around the US today. This issue came up when I was talking to Jesse Thorne.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  There's this, there's a complicated system of layering of the ingredients that's very important because otherwise you don't get an equal distribution.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  What they do, if they're doing it right, is they put the tortilla flat and then they move left to right with, with layers of the stuff so that once it is wrapped up, if you're eating from the end, you're getting a little bit of each layer. Does that make sense?

• 10:00Dan Pashman?

  Yes, Jesse, I think that makes sense in theory. I just think that in practice, what usually happens is the burrito roller builds this big pile of stuff, puts the tortilla over the top, and then tucks with their fingertips. And somehow in that process, they shift the fillings. And those nice neat layers end up in these different pockets of emphasis. You've got a big hunk of cheese over here and a big hunk of beans over there. And it becomes really hard to get a bite with a little bit of everything. Wouldn't it be a lot better if you took all those fillings and mixed them together in a bowl and then wrapped the fillings in a flour tortilla? Wouldn't that ensure that you get a little bit of everything in each bite?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Let me ask you this question. Do you like apple pie?

• 10:39Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Would it be better if we just took a fork and just squished all the stuff in the apple pie and then mixed it up in a circle so that it's perfectly distributed?

• 10:51Dan Pashman?

  It'd be easier to chew.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  I think that if you're going to a real good taqueria that knows how to make a burrito, one of the distinguishing characteristics is to be able to take a bite and you get some, you get some avocado, you get some sour cream, you get some rice, you get some beans, you get some meat, you get some salsa.

• 11:09Dan Pashman?

  I arrived at La Taqueria in the heart of San Francisco's Mission District, where they also had a musician playing.

• 11:36Dan Pashman?

  It's a bigger operation than Allen B's. They have two burrito rollers working side by side all day long, and the line never quits. The pork, is it carnitas?

• 11:46Speaker 05

  Yes, tres carnitas.

• 11:48Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so I would like one carnitas?

• 11:50Speaker 05

  Taco, burrito.

• 11:51Dan Pashman?

  Burrito. Jesse's comments about filling distribution were fresh on my mind, so while I waited for my food, I talked to Miguel, one of the burrito makers.

• 12:01Dan Pashman?

  How long have you been doing this?

• 12:03Speaker 06

  About 30 years.

• 12:05Dan Pashman?

  30 years rolling burritos and tortillas?

• 12:07Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 12:09Dan Pashman?

  When you sleep, do you dream about burritos?

• 12:12Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, man. I dream every night. I can't sleep because it's too much people.

• 12:19Dan Pashman?

  Do you know, how many burritos do you make in one day?

• 12:22Speaker 06

  Well, like, um, 700.

• 12:27Dan Pashman?

  So you've made like, hang on, I gotta get my calculator.

• 12:34Dan Pashman?

  All right, how many days a week do you work?

• 12:38Speaker 06

  Five days a.

• 12:39Dan Pashman?

  Five, five days a week, okay, so.

• 12:43Dan Pashman?

  Miguel, you've made more than 5 million burritos.

• 12:46Speaker 06

  Damn, I didn't even know that, but now I know.

• 12:51Dan Pashman?

  You should go have a party or something.

• 12:53Speaker 06

  Definitely, yeah.

• 12:56Dan Pashman?

  Watching Miguel make burritos is amazing. It's like flick of the wrist, perfect distribution of salsa. Swipe of a spatula, perfect distribution of guacamole. You know, it reminded me of Patsy Grimaldi, that 80 something year old New York pizza legend I had on the spork for a while back. He flicks his wrist and it's like flour goes up in the air like pixie dust and settles perfectly distributed on the pizza dough. It's just an amazing thing to see, like the muscle memory in action. And it looks effortless, but in reality, it's the kind of thing you can only do effortlessly when you've done it 5 million times. Anyway, watching Miguel work, I was ready to eat.

• 13:37Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man.

• 13:41Dan Pashman?

  This is the best burrito I've ever had in my life. The ingredients, the flavor, the meat is so soft and tender. The guacamole is fantastic. The beans, oh my God. It's just everything. And arrayed throughout the burrito, so every bite gets you just about everything you want. No pockets of emphasis, no big giant ball of cheese and big giant ball of guacamole.

• 14:09Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man. I'm gonna come back here tomorrow.

• 14:22Dan Pashman?

  In the end, I made three trips to La Taqueria in three days. You know, for research. My personal favorite was when I ordered half carnitas, half tongue. That made it sort of salty and a little bit crispy from the carnitas, but also fatty and just ridiculously soft and tender from the tongue. Oh, man. I gotta go back there. Anyway, I gotta say for me, on most days, I personally would prefer the San Francisco style. I like the combination of all the flavors, but the refried beans from Allen B's, those things like haunt me in my dreams. And really, I don't think that one is objectively better than the other. Like, they're just so different. I mean, I can't imagine either one satisfying me when I was craving the other.

• 15:07Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Evan Kleiman does not like it one bit when I tell her I think a burrito is a type of rap.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  I really thought you veered slightly too close to the insane when you asserted that.

• 15:19Dan Pashman?

  And I'll take some WNYC Podcaster friends out for burritos. That's coming up, stick around.

• 15:58Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it, and let me tell you, family

• 16:39Dan Pashman?

  of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear, All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. Make holiday hosting effortless with Boars Head Sweet Slice Uncured Ham. It's the perfect centerpiece for gathering family and friends around the holiday table. Hand-packed into netting, Sweet Slice Uncured Ham has the look of a traditional holiday ham with rich flavor worth of savoring. Slow-roasted and delicately smoked, boneless Sweet Slice Uncured Ham delivers classic bone-in flavor made for the moments that bring everyone together.

• 17:22Dan Pashman?

  Find Sweet Slice Uncured Ham at your nearest Boars Head deli. And for holiday entertaining inspiration, recipes, and more, visit boarshead.com.

• 17:32Dan Pashman?

  Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket, and it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket, and probably a new one because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear it in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 18:17Dan Pashman?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 18:40Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Want to watch me walking my dog while ranting about some food-related issue that's on my mind? Want to see what I'm cooking? Want to see what I'm eating? The best way to do that is to follow me on Instagram. My kids make occasional appearances. There's a lot of fun to be had. So please follow me on Instagram, @thesporful. Again, that's @thesporful. Thanks. Now, back to this week's reheat. Coming up in a minute, Vox's Matt Iglesias explains why the Chipotle burrito is like an iPhone. But first, as you know, I like to debate issues of language. When I met up with Evan Kleiman in LA, she took issue with one section in my book where I say that burritos are wraps.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Yes, and I really thought you veered slightly too close to the insane when you asserted that.

• 19:25Dan Pashman?

  Why? Why do you disagree?

• 19:27Speaker 03

  Well, to me, when I think of a wrap, I think of something that is kind of, I always think of it that it's going to be an insipid version of a filling that I could have on a regular sandwich in really great bread. And I've never understood why that would be appealing to anyone.

• 19:45Dan Pashman?

  Is it possible that your disdain for sandwich wraps and your love for burritos is creating this sort of...

• 19:54Dan Pashman?

  False association where you're like, I don't want burritos in the same category. I mean, isn't a wrap just a delivery system?

• 20:02Speaker 03

  No, because wraps are something that just came into be through marketing. I remember a time when there was no such thing as a wrap. You, of course, are quite young, so you probably do not remember such a time. But I do remember, and I think wraps only really came into being in the 80s. How could something that came to be in the 80s be actually considered having any merit to it?

• 20:25Dan Pashman?

  But I think what came to be in the 80s was really just a term and an American co-option of what has been a longstanding way to deliver food, which is to wrap it in some kind of a flat flour tortilla, whether it's a burrito, or whether you're talking about Peking duck or Mushu pork. There are a lot of different ethnic cuisines all over the world that involve something like a wrap.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  This is true.

• 20:52Dan Pashman?

  So I think it's always been there. You are conflating two issues. Your wrap is the American English word that we have, as I see it, for any food that is wrapped inside a single, usually doughy, structure. Whether it's a burrito, or you wrap up some Peking duck, it's a wrap.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  I want you to go tell that to some Chinese people.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  Tell them that their Mushu, their revered Mushu with that sort of gossamer thin pancake made with lard is a wrap.

• 21:27Dan Pashman?

  So you have this gossamer thin pancake. What word would you use to describe the action you now take to fold over, to put the whole thing together before you eat it?

• 21:39Speaker 03

  I would call it nestling.

• 21:43Dan Pashman?

  But what do you do with the pancake itself?

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Embrace.

• 21:51Dan Pashman?

  Well, after this interview, Evan, I'm going to give you a big ol' wrap.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  Let's go have a great tuna wrap.

• 21:59Dan Pashman?

  I thought you were going to say tuna embrace.

• 22:08Dan Pashman?

  Evan Klein hosts Good Food. It's a radio show and podcast out of KCRW in LA. So far, we've spent the show talking about some of the best burritos in the world. But I know that a lot of you don't have access to those burritos. Most of the time, neither do I. Which brings us to Chipotle. Vox's Matt Iglesias is a big fan. He wrote a piece for Slate in which he argued that Chipotle is innovating in the restaurant world the way Apple has in the tech world.

• 22:31Speaker 06

  You know, people tend to think of technology and innovation pretty exclusively in terms of gadgets, but you have innovators in other fields, including in food. And Chipotle, I think, is a real example of that. I mean, they use sort of interesting new technology in terms of how they're actually making their carnitas. They've innovated in terms of just how does a fast food restaurant look and how does it operate? And you're starting to see they have more and more influence on the industry, that Taco Bell has tried to move to a sort of Chipotle competing paradigm, that you see more and more chains using that assembly line style, creation of the food, and that, you know, just like in the high-tech world, in the food world, in the burrito world, you know, we see real innovation and change and dynamism.

• 23:13Dan Pashman?

  You got a lot of backlash to that column for your hailing Chipotle. You especially got backlash from people who are loyal to Bay Area burritos.

• 23:21Speaker 06

  Well, you know, the center of the sort of technology press in the United States is in the Bay Area, which is also the traditional center of the burrito industry. And so it was a, you know, sort of unfortunate confluence, people with strong feelings about technology and people with strong feelings about burritos, really let me have it. And so I was recently out in San Francisco and was able to sit down with a couple Wired writers who'd been on my case and go to their favorite place in the Mission District there and try out, you know, grassroots, authentic Mission burrito.

• 23:53Dan Pashman?

  You went to La Taqueria. I'm curious what your thoughts were on the experience.

• 23:57Speaker 06

  It's a mom and pop kind of thing. It's very different from a chain experience. It's homier, but you can also tell it's a less efficient operation. You know, they have sort of where the door is situated versus where the

• 24:08Speaker 02

  The line is versus where the menu is is all a little bit kind of haphazard, which is part of the appeal. It's part of the charm of a traditional establishment. But also, you know, as a business writer, I do always sort of admire the efficiencies that the chains bring to things.

• 24:22Dan Pashman?

  Right. What are some of the things that a place like Chipotle does with the situating the door and the line and things that we might not notice, but that make it run more efficiently?

• 24:32Speaker 02

  Well, you know, they're very careful to make it so that if you go in the door, where you stand is sort of right where the line is going to be forming. At least they try. And so that while you're standing in line, the menu is very visible because the idea is they want people to come up to the front and know exactly what they want to order. Where I was at La Taqueria, I was kind of standing in line, which forms at the opposite side of the restaurant from the door. You're facing then away from the menu. So it takes until you get quite close, until you can really see what's on there, what the price options are.

• 25:01Dan Pashman?

  Okay. But logistics aside, which burrito would you rather eat?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I did appreciate that at La Taqueria, they made a more, it's a more mixed up burrito. You know, Chipotle tends to give you sort of layered ingredients, which again is faster. It's easier for them to put it together that way. But I think it tastes better with the things jumbled up. Now, my wife, I know, is a, she's a very sort of particular person. And so she actually sort of takes the burrito, stands it up, she gets her spoon, a small spoon, and as she eats, she constantly mixes and remixes so that each bite can have exactly the ratio that she prefers. I don't really have that level of fastidiousness in me.

• 25:40Dan Pashman?

  I do the exact same thing she does. I sit there with my fork and I, and I, I look at the opening and I see what ratios I have in this bite. And I, I will, on a bite by bite basis, I will manage the ratios, move things around to try to get equal proportions in every bite.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  See, I feel like half the reason you're going someplace, though, I want the other people to, you know, make my food for me and to make it well. And that was definitely something I appreciated about La Taqueria is that I didn't need to do any reassembly of the food.

• 26:10Dan Pashman?

  That's Matt Iglesias. He's the executive editor at Vox. His piece for Slate is called Chipotle is Apple. Well, friends, we have one more stop on our burrito odyssey. There's a Chipotle down the street from WNYC, so I decided to invite some of my fellow podcasters out for lunch. I brought Manoush Samarodi from New Tech City and Anna Sale from Death, Sex and Money.

• 26:32Speaker 05

  The worst is when your tortilla tears at Chipotle and then the server looks at you and goes, huh? As if like, is this okay?

• 26:41Dan Pashman?

  Right. Oh, my God.

• 26:42Speaker 05

  I'm like, no, it's not okay.

• 26:43Dan Pashman?

  No, like, the whole point. The whole point of what we're doing here is to encase the food in a single structure. Yeah.

• 26:53Dan Pashman?

  All right, I'm going for it. All right, I'm ready to order. I'd like a, can I get half chicken, half carnitas? White rice. Pinto beans.

• 27:05Dan Pashman?

  Half chicken, half carnitas. Just a little bit of rice, please, just a little. That was a lot.

• 27:12Dan Pashman?

  Half chicken, half carnitas. Yes, someone give me a hand here so I can hold the mics.

• 27:19Dan Pashman?

  Got it?

• 27:24Dan Pashman?

  I have to say that that was a little stressful. Manoush, was that stressful to you?

• 27:29Speaker 05

  Yes, extremely stressful. I need to leave. I try not to, I like, I'm overwhelmed. There was loud music, lots of people yelling at me what kind of rice I wanted. I'm, I need to go and sit quietly and eat.

• 27:41Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, getting through that line is very stressful. And I feel like they're rushing you. And I also felt like I told the woman just a little rice and she just wasn't listening and she gave me a lot of rice. So Chipotle was fast, but we left frazzled. And when we got back to the office, we realized the burritos weren't labeled clearly. All right.

• 28:01Dan Pashman?

  This one says C.A. Is this mine? Is this a chicken and carnitas together? I think that's just carnitas, maybe. So I think we may just have to start biting into some of these and see what happens. Is anyone sick? Producer Alex Goldmark's burrito was so huge, it came undone almost immediately. I wonder, like, what responsibility does Alex have for the fact that his burrito is so stuffed amid it fell apart? Look at him, he's taking me off.

• 28:28Speaker 05

  Unwrap the whole thing. You can't do that. You have to leave it in the wrapper, man.

• 28:31Speaker 07

  It's not, it's not, it's not my wrapping technique. It was my ordering technique that made me go wrong.

• 28:35Speaker 05

  What do you mean? Like, look, you took the foil off.

• 28:37Speaker 07

  I heard that we had a free burrito and I was like, I want to try everything.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  So you're greedy.

• 28:41Speaker 07

  So I put the guacamole on there, which I don't usually do because I'm not going to pay the extra. And I got greedy, so it got too overstuffed.

• 28:46Speaker 05

  You unwrapped the foil.

• 28:47Speaker 07

  From the first moment I held it, it lacked the architectural stability of a normal Chipotle burrito.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  But the foil is the corset. It's the corset that holds the burrito together. Holds everything in place.

• 28:59Dan Pashman?

  I think that Joanna is right, that you use the foil to help hold the burrito together.

• 29:03Speaker 05

  Everyone's eating there. In the foil, except for Alex, except for you, Alex. Don't call me a burrito, okay? I just want to put in.

• 29:19Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, that's a burrito, by which I mean, that's a wrap. Sorry, I couldn't resist. If you want to see a video of Miguel's amazing, ridiculous burrito-making skills at La Taqueria, go to sporkful.com. There's also photos from my adventures. Again, sporkful.com. Quick note, that I am aware that there is such a thing as San Diego burritos that we did not cover in this show. My apologies to the people and the burritos of San Diego. We hope to cover your burritos in the future.

• 29:52Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Kenji Lopez Alt joins us for part two of today's reheat. We take all manner of listener questions, calls, debates, and disputes. Things may get a little heated. Stick around.

• 30:04Dan Pashman?

  It's time to open up a can of advertisements.

• 30:12Speaker 06

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure you're ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully. While active ETFs offer the potential

• 30:57Speaker 06

  to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC. Fall never arrives all at once. A jacket meets a dress. An old cap finds a new scarf.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  You create it, layer by layer. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 31:27Speaker 06

  Oregon Vada Zona? Is that a word? In the 2026 Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid, it might as well be, because it can be one road trip. It's all about turbocharged power and hybrid efficiency working together. So you get the thrill of quick acceleration and the satisfaction of fuel efficiency. Book a test drive and keep the adventure going. Kia: Movement that Inspires. Call 800-333-4KIA for details. Always drive safely.

• 32:03Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back. Let's open up the phone lines and take your calls with my old friend, Kenji Lopez-Ault.

• 32:12Dan Pashman?

  Today on the show, we're opening the phone lines and taking your calls. And riding shotgun with me for this episode is our old friend, Kenji Lopez-Ault. He's the man behind the Food Lab column on Serious Eats and the author of the excellent cookbook, The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking Through Science. Hey, Kenji. Hey, how's it going, Dan? It's going well. And later in the show, Kenji, I'm going to put you to the test. We're going to have a lightning round. Are you ready for the lightning round?

• 32:35Dan Pashman?

  Sure. I'm going to ask you three questions, some from me, some from listeners. And you're going to have to answer them in three minutes or however much time it takes. Okay. And I should add, one of those questions will address a very controversial topic. Should tomatoes be refrigerated? Oh, man, this is a big can of worms.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Big can of peeled tomatoes.

• 32:57Dan Pashman?

  That's right. This is a big one. But first, let's take a call. Hi, who's this?

• 33:01Speaker 06

  Hi, this is Jackie in Plattsburgh, New York.

• 33:04Dan Pashman?

  All right, Jackie, what can Kenji and I do for you?

• 33:07Speaker 06

  I am looking for an impartial third party for an issue that I have with my husband. Basically, Sean has a really weird way of eating in general. He has like a lot of food hacks that he has invented for a more efficient way of eating food. And some of these hacks are kind of embarrassing and some of them are just kind of like weird to me and don't make any sense.

• 33:35Dan Pashman?

  Can you give us a couple of examples of the greatest hits of Sean food hacks?

• 33:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, the most embarrassing one is when he's eating a burrito or anything that has like moisture in it, any kind of sandwich, he sucks in. And I call this one the suck. Like with every bite, he makes this like audible sucking sound.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Like he's slurping up noodles?

• 34:02Speaker 06

  Kind of, except there's no noodles.

• 34:05Dan Pashman?

  Can you do an impression of the sound right now for us, please?

• 34:09Speaker 06

  It sounds like

• 34:12Speaker 04

  That is embarrassing.

• 34:19Speaker 06

  It's audible. It's not something subtle at all.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  So he does that like right in the middle of the chipotle?

• 34:24Speaker 06

  Every bite, with every single bite.

• 34:28Dan Pashman?

  And can other people?

• 34:30Speaker 06

  It's a little bit unappetizing. Other people can definitely hear it. I've never had someone come up to us before, but I'm sure they can hear it. And the biggest issue that we have is really like a legacy issue here because we have a two-year-old and he feels very strongly that she should be, you know, learning these pearls of wisdom.

• 34:53Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, so the idea is that is he doing it to cool the food down? Is he doing it to just prevent drippy things from coming out of his mouth? Or what's the point of that one?

• 35:03Speaker 06

  It's for the drips. Apparently.

• 35:05Dan Pashman?

  Okay, can you, I want to bring Sean in on the conversation, but can you give me one more example of a food hack, Jackie?

• 35:13Speaker 06

  Oh, there's so many. I'd say another one is when he, this is more of a drink hack, but if he has like a can of something, then he, and he's done this for as long as I've known him, it's been six years. So he makes a dent in the can, like for where his thumb would go to make it more ergonomical. I mean, it's not a problem for me personally to like hold a can out. I don't really understand why it's so necessary, but like he tries to get. But it is a problem for you when someone else dents their can. Well, and he also is very adamant about how his way is the right way to do it. Everyone else is holding the can the wrong way because they haven't done this to their can. Jackie, I know you came here looking for an impartial third party, but I just want

• 35:56Speaker 06

  you to know that you are sort of heading into enemy territory right now because you're talking to someone, Dan, who I do know that. lives on food hacks. You're talking to a man who tears his hot dog buns up into inch long pieces and uses them as a handle to eat his hot dog. Yeah, I might be in the wrong, I might be, I might be setting myself up to be ganged up on here.

• 36:18Speaker 06

  I'll, I'll, I'll try and be your advocate though.

• 36:22Speaker 06

  Okay. We'll see.

• 36:24Dan Pashman?

  Let's bring in your genius husband, Sean. Oh, man, I like the way you think, my friend. I like the way you think.

• 36:37Dan Pashman?

  Sean.

• 36:38Speaker 06

  This is tip of the iceberg, let me say. There's a lot more, there's a lot of hacks.

• 36:41Dan Pashman?

  All right. Before we get, before we get into more detail on the slurp or the suck as Jackie calls it, and the, the thumb dent in the can, Sean, just tick off, tick off real quick a few other of your favorite food hack maneuvers. The popsicle.

• 36:55Speaker 06

  The popsicle is one of the worst ones. The popsicle, I mean, listen, I can admit that the popsicle one is probably embarrassing to the onlooker. Uh, I wouldn't want to make eye contact with another human while doing this.

• 37:09Speaker 06

  But essentially, I put the entire popsicle

• 37:14Speaker 06

  in my mouth, like down the side of my cheek. Again. Between my cheek and my tongue, right? Because you get like the most amount of flavor that way. And you eat the popsicle evenly. There are no drips. I've never had a popsicle drip on my fingers. Just saying that.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  So are you, I mean, are you doing this with just those sort of single stick, small banana sized popsicles? Or are you going, are you also doing this with like your red, white and blue, you know, rocket shaped giant, you know, triple X Magnum popsicles?

• 37:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, like, let's say I were to have a giant red, white and blue popsicle. I'm fitting as much of that popsicle in my mouth as like, as I can.

• 37:57Dan Pashman?

  And Sean, it seems like there's something of a pattern that I'm detecting is that, that a lot of these hacks are partly to reduce mess.

• 38:08Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  If you're really doing the suck partly for the sake of neatness, then I think it's actually, might be in your interest, both of you, uh, as part of this debate, to actually test its efficacy. Get yourself a burrito, cut it in half.

• 38:21Speaker 06

  You don't want to cut the burrito in half. You want to.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  Okay, well then, easy, just get two burritos. One of them using the suck method and the other one just using a normal human being method. And maybe count the number of napkins required.

• 38:35Speaker 06

  I would say that on average, I use zero napkins.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  Zero nap.

• 38:39Dan Pashman?

  You, you, you're telling me that because of the suck method, you can eat an entire burrito without using a single napkin?

• 38:46Speaker 06

  You heard me right, my friend. Zero napkins.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  You don't even do like the single, the single wipe to check that there's nothing, nothing there?

• 38:52Speaker 06

  I don't need to. I don't need to.

• 38:54Dan Pashman?

  Jackie, can you confirm that Sean can eat an entire burrito without using a single napkin?

• 39:00Speaker 06

  I don't want to, but.

• 39:07Dan Pashman?

  So I'll take that as a yes, you can confirm it. Now Jackie, have you ever tried any of these hacks?

• 39:16Speaker 06

  I haven't tried the sex. No, you tried one. I know you have. On principle, I haven't tried the dent, but I have tried the popsicle method.

• 39:25Dan Pashman?

  And?

• 39:26Speaker 06

  Surprisingly, it does make the popsicle taste better.

• 39:35Speaker 06

  I just don't want him to have the satisfaction of feeling like his way of doing this is better than my way. And then I don't want him to feel like he has an opening to like start, to start directing me in every other area. As you see, as you can see, we have a very healthy marriage.

• 39:54Speaker 04

  You know, there is, there is of course something to be said about Jackie's point about sucking down a burrito in a public place. Being embarrassing and maybe setting a bad example for your, for your daughter. My wife Adriana has, that is one of her biggest, biggest pet peeves is when people make slurping noises while eating. Which I can tell you was a big problem. We spent about three months traveling around China and other parts of Asia. And that was her biggest complaint while we were there is that it's, you know, it's just part of the culture to slurp while you eat. And I, you know, I grew up in a Japanese family and so I, slurping was never an issue for me. And if I'm eating noodles, I'll slurp. But since we've been married, I've tried to kind of tone it down a bit because I know that it, that it negatively affects her.

• 40:36Dan Pashman?

  Jackie, are you more worried about your daughter adopting these techniques because you're afraid that she will be ostracized? Or is it that you're worried that you'll be outnumbered?

• 40:49Speaker 06

  I'd say pretty even 50 50 there.

• 40:57Dan Pashman?

  You guys have been together six years total? Dating, dating and marriage, six years total?

• 41:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  This has been an issue that entire time?

• 41:06Speaker 06

  We went, we went through a honeymoon phase where Jackie pretended to ignore it, you know?

• 41:10Dan Pashman?

  Was there ever a point, was there ever a point Jackie, early in your relationship with Sean, that you thought it was cute?

• 41:16Speaker 06

  I thought the can thing was cute.

• 41:18Dan Pashman?

  Did you ever think the slurp was cute?

• 41:21Speaker 06

  No.

• 41:23Dan Pashman?

  Was there ever?

• 41:26Speaker 06

  The problem is, the problem is that you're proving my point that even if I slurp, I won't be ostracized because despite the fact that I slurp for our entire relationship, you noticed it early on, didn't think he was cute, yet still married me. True, true.

• 41:42Speaker 04

  Well, she's gotten the chance to become close to you and know that despite your eating flaws, that there are other redeeming qualities about you. But the person sitting next to you at the Chipotle is not going to get to know you other than you're slurping. Conversely, was there a time early in your relationship, Sean, that maybe you toned down? Like, the very first time you guys got a burrito together, did you go straight in with the slurp? Or maybe did you try, did you start with some mild suckling to test the waters?

• 42:10Speaker 06

  Honestly, like you took the words right out of my mouth. I recall specifically trying to tone down my... I never noticed it during that time.

• 42:19Speaker 04

  So that means that on some level, you do know that what you're doing is distasteful.

• 42:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I am a human, aware of myself in the world, I guess. Truth comes out. Truth comes out.

• 42:43Dan Pashman?

  Jackie, a lot of what I'm hearing from you is that you don't want to try these things, you don't want to acknowledge that they might be good because you don't want to give Sean the satisfaction, and because you don't want to feel like he is judging you and trying to control you.

• 42:57Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm, yep, I would say so.

• 43:00Dan Pashman?

  Are there other issues in your relationship where the reverse is true? Where, Sean, you feel that Jackie is trying to impose her way of doing things on you?

• 43:10Speaker 06

  Certainly. Yeah, we have a normal relationship.

• 43:13Dan Pashman?

  Sean, can you give me one or two quick examples of an area where Jackie thinks that she knows best and she's telling you that she thinks you should do it that way?

• 43:25Speaker 06

  Absolutely. So, we actually play music together in a band, and we are the two members of the band. Jackie plays piano and sings and writes all the songs, and I play drums and do other instruments. And I would say that in that situation, I'm extremely micromanaged. That's true.

• 43:50Dan Pashman?

  And Sean, when Jackie treats you that way...

• 43:55Dan Pashman?

  How does it make you feel?

• 44:00Speaker 05

  Good question.

• 44:01Speaker 06

  Uh, when Jackie treats me that way, it makes me feel, I would say, a little belittled.

• 44:07Dan Pashman?

  And Jackie, when Sean tells you that you're not eating something or drinking something correctly, how does it make you feel?

• 44:14Speaker 05

  I'd say the same. It makes me feel kind of belittled then, like he doesn't trust my own instincts on how to eat.

• 44:22Dan Pashman?

  This debate does hit close to home for me because Sean, you and I are definitely kindred spirits. And I am often trying to impose my way of eating onto other people in my house, both my wife and my children.

• 44:36Dan Pashman?

  And I get very similar reactions, both for my wife and my children. My wife is like, "Don't tell me how to do it, you know, leave me alone." And my kids think it's really fun and cool to play with their food and try new things, you know? They still think, you know, they're a little, a little older than your daughter, but still small enough to think that I'm cool.

• 44:56Dan Pashman?

  And so I totally get that tension and I think that, um, maybe you can both do a better job of being receptive to the other person's suggestions when you're the one receiving, and you could both do a better job of maybe having a lighter touch or picking your battles when you're the one giving the suggestions.

• 45:17Speaker 05

  Oh, that was so good!

• 45:19Speaker 06

  That just felt like the minute at the end of the show with Jerry Springer.

• 45:27Speaker 05

  No, that's really good advice.

• 45:29Dan Pashman?

  I think we've had a real breakthrough here, guys.

• 45:32Speaker 05

  I think so!

• 45:33Speaker 06

  Like, I feel like I should pay you.

• 45:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, seriously!

• 45:38Dan Pashman?

  One quick addendum, which is that I think that the suck or slurp technique should be put in a different category from all the others. Pushing a dent in the can, like, who, no one's really harmed by that. The only harm is that Jackie's annoyed because Sean is smug.

• 45:53Dan Pashman?

  The greater world, no, no, no damage is being inflicted on the world at large. But the sound of the slurp in a restaurant, I can understand how that could be a little gross. So Sean, I think that one in particular, I would encourage you to dial back and pick your spots.

• 46:08Speaker 06

  Right, maybe go with just the gentle suckle.

• 46:11Dan Pashman?

  The, right.

• 46:15Dan Pashman?

  Exactly. And the others, I think Jackie, you know, you could take it easy a little bit more, and hopefully you'll find common ground. Okay. Yeah, we can do that. Oh, one other thing I wanted to add with regard to your daughter is that I predict, I can't say this for sure, but I predict what will happen is that she's going to increasingly pick up your techniques, Sean, because you're her father and she's gonna think it's really cool. And then if you continue with the suck or slurp at full volume, eventually she's gonna hit an age where she's gonna be, you're gonna be eating burritos with her and her friends, and she is going to be horrified. Yeah, deeply, deeply embarrassed. Right, and she is-

• 46:51Speaker 04

  She'll be totally ostracized in college.

• 46:53Dan Pashman?

  Right. Well, I think what will happen actually is that she will order, "You don't ever do that again in front of my friends. You are so embarrassing, Dad. You are the worst. Like, you need to sit in silence. Just don't." But then eventually, when she gets a little bit older, like when she's in college, even out of college, and she's older and sort of more self-assured, I think it's gonna come full circle. And I think that she's gonna tell her friends and her kids, "My dad was this weird eccentric who would eat his burritos in this way," and she's gonna slurp her own burritos and think of you.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  While she's counting the money she saves, I'm not buying napkins.

• 47:41Dan Pashman?

  All right. Well, Jackie and Sean in Plattsburgh, New York, we wish you the best with your music and your eating and your daughter. Thanks, guys.

• 47:59Dan Pashman?

  All right, Kenji, it is time now for the hot seat. This is where I'm gonna ask you three questions, some from me, some from listeners, and I'm gonna put three minutes on the clock, and you have gotta answer these three questions in three minutes, or however long it takes. Are you ready?

• 48:13Speaker 04

  I'm ready.

• 48:13Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm gonna go for the three.

• 48:15Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 48:16Speaker 04

  Hey, Dan, this is Simon in Las Vegas, Nevada. My wife and I constantly debate storing tomatoes in the refrigerator. She dislikes the idea of them getting warm on the counter and feels like, you know, like a lot of fresh food, they'd do better if they were stored cold. On the other hand, I think that they kind of fail to fully ripen and get to full flavor when they're in the refrigerator. She's a fantastic cook, aside from her questionable tomato-

• 48:39Dan Pashman?

  Maybe you can enlighten us on the proper ways of the tomato. Thanks, Dan. I once said, like, two years ago, I mentioned that I had put a tomato in the fridge and I got so much hate mail from Sporkful listeners. How can you put a tomato in the fridge? But I know this is something you've looked into, Kenji. Where do you stand?

• 48:55Speaker 06

  Actually, more specifically, Daniel Gritzer, the culinary director at Serious Heats, you know, I've done a little bit of experimenting, but he did a massive set of experiments a few summers ago. You know, we know on a scientific level that there are certain things that happen when a tomato is in the refrigerator, certain enzymes that get deactivated and certain flavor compounds that get destroyed. And those scientific studies are where people get this idea that storing tomatoes in the refrigerator is a bad idea. But those studies are generally for industry and they're meant for people who are deciding what's the best way to ship tomatoes and what's the best way to store them in the supermarket, for example. And so those studies don't necessarily apply when you're trying to answer the question of, is it better for me to take a tomato from the supermarket or from the farmer's market and put it on my counter or put it in my refrigerator?

• 49:38Speaker 06

  One of the things is that if you're buying it from the supermarket, those tomatoes have almost undoubtedly already been exposed to refrigerator temperatures. And so those tomatoes have already had those enzymes and those flavors destroyed, which means that subsequently putting them in your refrigerator is not really going to do much more damage to them. The other thing to consider is that when you're bringing a tomato home from, say, a farmer's market or even from your backyard, a perfectly ripe tomato that you store on your counter doesn't magically stop ripening. And in fact, it can start to lose flavor and start to lose texture as well. And what Daniel found in his experiments and a couple of the ones I did at home as well, was that even with tomatoes that you're getting fresh from the farm or fresh off the vine, in most cases, if you take two identical tomatoes picked off the vine the

• 50:22Speaker 06

  same day, put one on the countertop and put one in the refrigerator, in most cases, if you wait a few days and then taste those tomatoes again, making sure to let the one that went in the refrigerator come to room temperature before tasting, you'll find that people prefer the one that went into the refrigerator.

• 50:36Dan Pashman?

  What? That's a bombshell, Kenji. There's a microphone in front of your face right now. Are you sure you want to say that?

• 50:46Speaker 06

  The reason is the one that was left on the counter actually ends up over ripening, and that's detrimental to it. And it's more detrimental to it than what can happen in the refrigerator, in most cases. So, the real question you have to ask yourself is, when am I going to be eating this tomato? If you have this ripe tomato that you got from your vine or from the farmer's market, and you're going to be eating it within a day or two, then you're probably best off leaving it on the counter. If it's going to be any longer than that, then you're actually probably better off putting it in the refrigerator, with the caveat that you have to make sure the tomato comes back to room temperature before you slice it and eat it, because cold tomatoes do have a significantly reduced flavor, and also a sort of mealy or texture, that letting them come back up to room temperature can help alleviate.

• 51:25Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, you heard it here. Don't send me any more hate mail, people. Send it to Kenji, or Daniel Gritzer, if you don't like the conclusion.

• 51:32Dan Pashman?

  All right, Kenji, question number two. I love a good corn tortilla, but it's so hard to find a good corn tortilla. There are decent flour tortillas in the supermarket or in some specialty shops. I know they're not as good as homemade, but they're pretty good. But it is so hard to find a decent corn tortilla anywhere where someone isn't making it right in front of my very eyes, 10 seconds before I eat it. Why is it so hard to find a decent corn tortilla in the supermarket? And what can I do to improve a corn tortilla in the supermarket and make it better, if not less bad?

• 52:07Speaker 06

  Well, you know, according to Alex Stupak, you know Alex, he's the chef at Empaion Taqueria in New York. He had a great book called Tacos. According to him, the reason is because corn starches, when you first cook them, the starches gelatineize, they're fluid, they are pliable. Once they cool down, those starches retrograde, they re-crystallize. And unlike wheat starch, which can be re-gelatineized by heating again, corn starch, once it re-crystallizes, it cannot be re-gelatineized. So it retrogrades in a way that is unable, you're not able to save it again. So, if you think about a loaf of bread or a flour tortilla, it's great when it's fresh out of the bakery oven, you know, six hours later, or the next day, it's going to be stale. But you can sort of revive it almost back to its initial state

• 52:51Speaker 06

  just by throwing it back in the oven and reheating it again. A corn tortilla does not act- The same way. Once it cools down, it's impossible to bring it back to its original state again.

• 52:59Dan Pashman?

  Is there anything that I can do to make them a little better?

• 53:02Speaker 06

  My method for heating, for reheating corn tortillas, well, these days I use a little griddle that I have, that I have set on my countertop, but you can use a cast iron pan or even a non-stick skillet. You want to get it nice and hot, dip the tortilla in a little bit of water before putting it into the cast iron pan or the skillet. And as that water steams, it'll, the steam will work its way through the tortilla. It'll help it gain a little bit moisture. So you basically cook it on the first side until that first side starts to show little brown spots. Flip it over, char the second side. So you get some nice toasted flavors that can help add some flavor back to it. And then it also stays pliable because you're adding liquid to it. Then the real key, though, is that after you do that, you want to make sure you let the tortilla steam. So what I have is a plate with a clean dish towel set on it. As I reheat the tortillas, I stack them

• 53:46Speaker 06

  neatly together, wrap them up in that dish towel as I go, and then let them sit before serving them. And you'll find that allowing them to steam together is going to actually help them regain a lot of that sort of pliability. It's never really going to have the sort of stretchiness of a very fresh tortilla, but it'll at least be pliable.

• 54:01Dan Pashman?

  Okay, Kenji, you just got one more. Gus in Brazil asks, does frying stuff that has been frozen generally lead to crispier results?

• 54:10Speaker 06

  It definitely can. When you're frying something, what you're really doing is a two-step process. You're dehydrating and you are getting proteins to set. At the same time, generally when you're frying something, the exterior texture is going to be different from the interior texture. The exterior is going to be crisp, dry, and light, and usually the interior is going to be something moisture. So what you want to do is kind of battle against that moisture on the inside from making the exterior soggy. The question is whether freezing helps. Well, freezing can actually help in one important way, which is that as you're heating foods, you're causing moisture inside them to escape. So when foods are really hot inside, a lot of moisture is going to escape, and that's more likely to cause the exterior to become soggy. So if you can keep the inside of your food cold while you're doing the work of crisping up the exterior, you can actually sort of minimize

• 54:53Speaker 06

  the moisture that escapes from the center so that you end up with something that actually is crisper on the outside and is actually moisture on the inside. So in most cases, yes, freezing a food will actually help it fry up better. There are exceptions to this. So for something like, say, a breaded chicken breast, freezing it can actually disrupt the protein structure of that chicken. It can cause muscle fibers to puncture and tear, and it can actually lead to more moisture leaking out because that chicken breast has been frozen. For things like vegetables and smaller pieces of food or ground meats, then yeah, I would say in almost all cases, freezing can actually help improve crispness.

• 55:33Dan Pashman?

  Well, Kenji, you survived the lightning round. You answered all the questions in three minutes or some other quantity of time. Congratulations.

• 55:44Speaker 06

  Thanks.

• 55:44Dan Pashman?

  Kenji Lopez Alt is from Serious Eats, and he's the author of The Food Lab: Better Home Cooking Through Science. Thank you, Kenji.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, thank you. It's a pleasure. This was even more fun than usual, actually.

• 55:53Dan Pashman?

  I thought so. I thought so. We'll talk to you soon, buddy. Take care.

• 55:57Speaker 06

  All right. Thanks.

• 56:00Dan Pashman?

  By the way, as you heard, our callers in today's show, Jackie and Sean, they have a band. It's called Roan Yellowthorn. That's R-O-A-N Yellowthorn. Check them out. And if you have a food-related dispute that needs settling or a food science question for Kenji, drop me a line, [email protected]. And you could find yourself in an upcoming episode of The Sporkful. This show is produced by Anne Sannie and me. Editing help from Dan Charles. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Jenny Radelit. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  And this is Barbara Turtolo with the Spring Peepers in Skelleburg, Virginia. We'd like to remind you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better. But not the frog legs, please.

• 57:04Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 57:49Dan Pashman?

  Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 57:56Speaker 06

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.

• 58:39Speaker 06

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  Most homeowners have one. That bad window, the one that's drafty, sticks, or leaks. You'd love to replace it, but you may think no company wants a one-window project. Renewal by Anderson does. In fact, replacing your worst window can help improve your home's comfort and energy efficiency. Start with just one and see the difference for yourself. During your free consultation, we'll provide an exact price quote, even if you're replacing just one window. Visit renewalbyandersonhome.com. Only valid at participating locations.