What To Do When Someone Pulls Away

After 33 years of marriage, a woman called in to ask what she should do when her husband won't hug her—and becomes angry when she asks. And y'all, that question opened the door to some really honest conversations about hurt, loneliness, and what we do when the people closest to us don't show up the way we need them to. We also talk about how to deal with intentionally mean people, helping teenagers stand up to bullies, navigating estrangement with an adult child, rebuilding trust after addiction, and how to know whether something is truly wrong in a relationship or if you're simply questioning yourself. Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Dose. Save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to dosedaily.co/JEFFERSON or entering JEFFERSON at checkout. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Welcome to another episode of the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today, I get to answer more questions from the community. And y'all, there were some doozies. We got to talk how to handle hard conversations head-on. How do you prepare teens for conversations with bullies? How do you handle estrangement with an adult child? How do you handle people who are intentionally mean to you? And lastly, how do you handle people who continue to bring up the past even when it's painful? If you'd like to call and leave a voicemail, I'm going to put all the information down there in the show notes. Or if you'd like, you can leave a comment, wherever you're listening, because my plan is to answer those questions specifically on the next episode. It's going to be fun. I'm ready for it.

• 1:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's get into it.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  I have been married 33 years, and I continually ask my husband to hug me, and he doesn't. And I have tried and tried, and I would like to know how to get him to want to hug me and not be angry when he does it. Thank you.

• 1:56Jefferson Fisher?

  I'll give you a hug.

• 2:00Jefferson Fisher?

  You deserve a hug. Everybody deserves a hug.

• 2:07Jefferson Fisher?

  I have a really hard time.

• 2:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Even imagining

• 2:20Jefferson Fisher?

  what that must feel like.

• 2:24Jefferson Fisher?

  A person you're married to for 30-plus years, and you have to beg him to give you a hug?

• 2:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 2:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, I gotta...

• 2:52Jefferson Fisher?

  All right, I gotta get my head in it.

• 2:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Here's something that comes to mind if I go, "Okay, I gotta pull this in practically." Okay, what tools can we go here?

• 3:06Jefferson Fisher?

  We're talking about a hug.

• 3:09Jefferson Fisher?

  It's first,

• 3:13Jefferson Fisher?

  there is a root in this. When somebody doesn't want to do something physically, it's usually because it's tied to something mentally

• 3:27Jefferson Fisher?

  much deeper.

• 3:30Jefferson Fisher?

  And I don't know. And where are some things I don't know? I don't know if this is the way your husband has been for all time. I don't know if there's a certain

• 3:48Jefferson Fisher?

  event

• 3:51Jefferson Fisher?

  that

• 3:53Jefferson Fisher?

  created a different path that said, "I don't feel safe hugging anymore." Like, there's something deeper happening here than just not wanting to hug. Maybe, I mean, I know people who aren't people-people. You know, they want distance. They're not huggers. They're not handshickers. They might, you know, give you a tap of the... They may pound, give you a fist, but that's it.

• 4:23Jefferson Fisher?

  This doesn't feel like that. Hearing it in your voice, it doesn't feel like that. Your voice sounds really defeated. And that breaks my heart. And I don't like that.

• 4:36Jefferson Fisher?

  So my thought is, there has to be something deeper here happening. If he's somebody that does not like physical touch, that's one element, and that's to be respected. But more likely, you would have already known that. So my mind goes to, okay.

• 4:57Jefferson Fisher?

  What would cause somebody not want to draw close physically? I know when there are hidden emotions, like anger and shame,

• 5:10Jefferson Fisher?

  because that closeness means vulnerability. Invulnerability means something scary. And that can be really overwhelming. And they would rather keep that distance. Because there's something else deeper going on. I don't know what that is. I don't know that history.

• 5:34Jefferson Fisher?

  So that's the first thing that comes to mind for me, is, is there something else going on below the surface? Second is a question.

• 5:49Jefferson Fisher?

  And it's a question

• 5:54Jefferson Fisher?

  that I'm going to put, that we're not trying to elicit a yes response, which is hard. I'm going harder. I want to elicit a no response. So in my head, this is the question I would ask to have this conversation with your husband. You said that without him being angry at you. I mean, he'll do it. He's angry about it.

• 6:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Anger is usually tied to a lot more grief and sadness and shame.

• 6:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Here's the question.

• 6:33Jefferson Fisher?

  I can't believe this is the question. Am I not worth a hug to you?

• 6:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Am I not worth a hug to you?

• 6:56Jefferson Fisher?

  You're gonna learn a lot in that answer.

• 7:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Am I not worth a hug to you?

• 7:11Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm going to assume you've already had the conversation around couples therapy, or therapy, or bigger conversations of the people around you. And this might not be something that's new at all, but you are tired of it. So you have agency and you get to choose what you're gonna do. Is this something that you're wanting to live with? Is this something that you've decided, "I'm not gonna be with anybody who's ashamed to hug me"? "I'm not gonna be with anybody that sees hugging me as something to be upset about, or a chore, or to ask for too much, for goodness sake." You get to choose that. So I'm gonna assume that's already taking place.

• 7:51Jefferson Fisher?

  The third, what I need you to know right now, is you are worth that hug.

• 7:59Jefferson Fisher?

  And if you're listening to me, anybody listening right now, in the comments, if this has hit your heartstrings like it's hit mine,

• 8:12Jefferson Fisher?

  just tell her that she's worth a hug.

• 8:17Jefferson Fisher?

  You need to know it. And that might be the most important thing you do today, is let her know that she's worth a hug.

• 8:34Jefferson Fisher?

  You're worth a hug. Thank you for the question.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Hello, this is Lisa. I was just wondering, how do you handle people who are intentionally mean? I tend to either be too nice, or go completely overboard, and go way to the other side, be rude. And I don't wanna be rude. Thank you, and have a great day.

• 8:53Jefferson Fisher?

  That's a great question. What do you do when somebody's intentionally trying to be mean? First off, thank you for asking that. And I hate that people have been mean to you. Give me a list of who they are, so I can...

• 9:05Jefferson Fisher?

  I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna keep a record of it. That's what I'm gonna do. Uh, how do you, how do you handle people that are intentionally being mean? Number one,

• 9:15Jefferson Fisher?

  ask them if they're intentionally being mean. You'll be surprised what they say. Maybe you're gonna go, you know what? I already know. I already know what they're gonna say. Sometimes I know can be one of the most harmful things you can think in your mind instead of I wonder. I wonder why they're being mean. I wonder what's happening. I wonder what's going on behind the surface there. That's a whole lot more telling. But let's put that aside for right now. If we're gonna choose to ask questions, then do what you don't wanna do. What you told me is I don't wanna be rude back because I tend to go overboard and then I'm really, really rude. So rather than serving it right back at them, we're gonna do something even more powerful. All right, we're gonna use a question that is gonna keep everything in their bucket.

• 9:59Jefferson Fisher?

  So when they say something mean, I want you to envision it as, as if something has come out of their mouth and just fallen to the floor. And you get to choose to take five to seven seconds of nothing.

• 10:15Jefferson Fisher?

  And you can look down as if

• 10:19Jefferson Fisher?

  you're not really sure if they're good with that. You can look down and look back up at them as if, is that what you're proud of saying? You're good with that? You see this face of like, did, you sure that's what you want?

• 10:34Jefferson Fisher?

  And if that five to second passes and they don't say anything else, that's where you get to say, I need you to say that again to me. I need you to repeat that. If that doesn't feel comfortable for you, then I'm gonna encourage you to ask a question of, did you mean? Did you intend for that to sound as mean as it did? Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound upsetting?

• 10:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Did you mean, or maybe we can go into the intended effect. Did you want that to hurt me? Did you want that to upset me? And you'd be surprised about what they said. Maybe they're gonna double down on it. Maybe they're gonna go, you know what? I mean, you know, you always just, and they're gonna try and adjust it or capitulate in some way. But if they do double down and they go, yes, you know what? I did want that to hurt you. I did want that to be me. You get to take even more time and say, I thought so. Thank you. And you leave it with them. Don't take that home with you. You leave it with them.

• 11:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Because I would much rather you choose to do this than say something rude. And then when you go home, you're regretting that you gave them that power. I would much rather you be five years from now and say, I'm living a great life and I'm good. And they still have to live with the words that they chose and the words that I chose not to pick up. Because what they say, you do not have to receive. You do not have to attend every argument you're invited to. So feel free to RSVP. No, you can tell them Jefferson said so. Thanks for the question. This podcast is sponsored by Cozy Earth. And I have a very important question for you.

• 12:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Are you wanting to wear the most comfortable sweatpants you've ever worn in your life? Cozy Earth is your one stop shop. I cannot be more serious when I say that Cozy Earth, any of their sweat, like suits, whether it's the pants or the hoodies or the tops, sweatshirts, top quality. If you cannot see my hand right now, I'm giving you the okay sign. I mean, top stuff I wear all the time. They're awesome. And I never thought I'd be in a position ever to be like, these, the sweatshirt and sweatpants are the best ever. But they really are the best ever. I'm not joking. And I could probably make a whole episode on how awesome these sweatpants feel.

• 13:04Jefferson Fisher?

  So if you're like me and you enjoy being not just comfortable, but also cozy, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 20% off. cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 20% off. And now enjoy the episode. I have a 15 year old daughter.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Who was a freshman in high school. The problem we're having is the boys in her gym class are making comments like um during pickleball, if she misses the ball, well, you know, you should be used to that because it's like stirring um with a wooden spoon in the kitchen. That kind of derogatory term. We've gotten nowhere with the prin- the gym teacher or the principal, who both say they're taking care of it, but she's getting bullback now, other comments in gym class. So she's wondering, because I teach my girls with your content, what can she say to these boys other than, she's tried using your standard answers. Is that the look you're going for?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  What can she say to them to get them to back off? Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Bye bye.

• 14:14Jefferson Fisher?

  She's fifteen. Fifteen year old girls, fifteen year old boys. That is rough. That's just not, we've, having been fifteen.

• 14:28Jefferson Fisher?

  That in of itself is a huge challenge, just navigating middle school and high school and dealing with all that, let alone these not-headed boys that say stupid things.

• 14:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, so what if, if she was calling me and I'm speaking to her, and first off, good mom move to be able to be her support system like this. I know there are other people who wish that they had moms like you, who, you know, supported them in this way. So I want to give you props for good mom move. What would I tell her? All right. She's fifteen. Here's what I would tell her.

• 15:09Jefferson Fisher?

  In three years, you never have to see these boys again for the rest of your life. So that's one. All right. It's very easy to think that high school is the end all be all. And then you get into college and you realize, high school was nothing. No, or maybe it technical school, or maybe she didn't go to college. It doesn't matter. You're going to get into your twenties and thirties and realize you were just a kid. And you, she's probably hardly going to remember it. Or maybe she does. And here's where she gets to decide what she remembers it for. Right. And what I want it to be is she remembers it not for the time that these boys are mean. But here's the time where she found her voice. Okay, that to me is much more exciting. So let's say we're going to remember it for this. What I'm going to tell her is number one, remember, these boys mean nothing.

• 15:55Jefferson Fisher?

  In a few years, you'll never probably have to see them ever again. So realize, high school is very temporary. You and what you stand for forever. Okay, and you're going to do amazing things. And these boys can go kick rocks. Right. So I want her to have this sense of confidence of, do not give them the satisfaction of putting them on any kind of pedestal. Or feeling like at any time of their life, they are deserving of a microphone to be talking to you. Okay, don't, the only value you're going to give them is the value you're going to give them. So we're going to choose, say, you don't have any worth to me.

• 16:39Jefferson Fisher?

  That's not even the, not even worth the, the energy or the brain space for that. All right. Two, so it gets into some of the tools that I know you've already taught her. And that's the power of questions. So surprised you went with that.

• 17:01Jefferson Fisher?

  How did you want me to feel when you say that? How do you feel when you say something like that?

• 17:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Did you mean, did you mean for that to sound misogynistic? Did you mean for that to sound patronizing? Did you mean for that to sound absolutely idiotic? Like, this is where she gets to kind of use her voice to challenge it. So I want her to have very, a big confidence in, I am, I don't know her name, but this is who I am, and these boys are nothing. Okay? They don't get to say who I am or what worth I have. Second of all, I want her to use her voice in the power of questions of, "Did you mean for that to sound, did you mean for that to sound as dumb? Is it, I just heard it?"

• 17:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Use those questions to her advantage, and it's going to come really natural of what's going to feel right. Of all the things that you've already, already known. "Did you mean? Are you okay?" That's one I always really like. "Are you okay?" Like, that's a very easy way to kind of splash that cold water on somebody. The next I would encourage her, and this is ones I use often, is asking them to repeat that. "Yeah, I need you to say that again. I just want to make sure that what you said was exactly as patronizing or misogynistic as I thought it was. I need you to say that again." That's going to be very intimidating to a 15-year-old boy.

• 18:39Jefferson Fisher?

  I can assure you that. Lastly, is also to have, instead of a very serious attitude about it, I would tell her to have a very, almost playful attitude about it, as if you care about them this much. One time, and I would almost share the same advice, there was a girl who was asking me what she should say to some other, another boy that was saying kind of stuff with her, which was, it sounded really like he was kind of flirty. Like, he just was flirting really bad, because boys are dumb.

• 19:21Jefferson Fisher?

  And I told her to say, ask the question, "Why are you so obsessed with me?"

• 19:28Jefferson Fisher?

  And the mom came back and told me that that was one of the best questions I ever could have given her because she did that to the boy and he turned so red that he stopped talking to her for the rest of the year. So she could try that. That being said, if it doesn't feel comfortable for her, absolutely don't push it. Here's the thing, I want her to think and see that her, she has so much farther to go in life than this little moment right here. And I know it's gonna feel really big. And so here she gets to use her voice, not in a way that is going to match fire with fire, but to say, you are playing checkers, I'm playing chess. All right?

• 20:11Jefferson Fisher?

  And when you, she gets to that level of confidence, amazing things are gonna happen, and I'm excited to see it. So you're gonna have to let me know how it goes. Thanks for the question.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Hi, Jefferson. My adult son has cut me off from his life. He has a six-year-old child that he has taken me away from. How can I get him back or to respond to me reasonably to where we can have a relationship?

• 20:40Jefferson Fisher?

  I've spoken and with many people who call in or email, and they're dealing with estrangement. And it's almost always this case where there's a parent and an adult child, and there's some form of estrangement, where they don't talk anymore. And what's heartbreaking is not just the fact that that is your son, you also are losing, not just him, but you're losing a grandchild too, when he's taking that six-year-old in not late and you see him. And, and I need to tell you, there are way more people than you know fighting this battle every day. And if that's

• 21:25Jefferson Fisher?

  you listening, just...

• 21:29Jefferson Fisher?

  I want you to show Anne from Oklahoma some love in the comments, wherever you are, even if it's just saying it out loud or thinking out loud to yourself. Because this is hard stuff, y'all. And those who've been through it know, this is, any estrangement from a family member or a loved one, or even a deep friend is really, really hard. And there's nothing I'm going to be able to tell you that's just going to flip the switch. I wish there was. Believe me, I wish there was. Here's what I can tell you. There is, one, when I picked up, you said, "How for him to respond reasonably to you." That's telling to me.

• 22:14Jefferson Fisher?

  That says, "You do have a line of communication, even though he's cut you off, says, 'I don't want a relationship.'" There is some kind of line of communication. And when that happens, there is a need, usually from the person who's being cut off, to chase, pursue, and it's exactly what causes the other person to push away even more. Mom, son, there are control issues at play. There are historical issues at play. There are a lot of complexities to this.

• 22:55Jefferson Fisher?

  If there is some measure of advice that I can give and recommend, is the next time you have the chance, in whichever way y'all are communicating, text message, voicemail, most likely he's not answering your call. So it's either in a voicemail or in a text. The first thing out of your mouth has to be, "I know." And it sounds like this. "I know things are not how we want them to be. I know I am not..."

• 23:26Jefferson Fisher?

  The mom you're you've wanted right now. I know things are hard for us. I know there's a big distance between us. I know things are not going well. It's you have to be able to call a spade a spade. And see it for exactly what it is, rather than talk as if it's something else in your mind. All right, you're gonna have to be able to face that reality. I know that you and I have struggled for a long time now. You gotta put that out there.

• 24:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, put that out there. The next is I'm not.

• 24:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Here is where you are sending the signal that you don't want to go into anything that could be a recurring theme. I'm not asking for an apology. I'm not trying to push you in any way. I'm not usually it's we were asking something from them. I'm not asking you to respond right now. I'm not asking you to agree with me. It's you're gonna know what is gonna be coming naturally for you. Okay, to to say, I I know, then I'm not. I'm not asking for anything. I'm not trying to push you, whatever that is.

• 24:52Jefferson Fisher?

  The last part of it is I'm ready. And I need you to hear me here. It's not I'm ready to talk. It's I'm ready to listen.

• 25:04Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm ready to listen.

• 25:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Whenever you're ready to share.

• 25:10Jefferson Fisher?

  It's not I'm ready to talk when you are. That most likely, there's been a lot of talking. Right, just not a lot of listening. Because this is stuff that estrangement is not something that happens usually in one cut. Let's say one fell swoop, you know, it's it's built up. It's built up. It's it's in and over time, it clogs your drain, or you're not gonna be able to it's it's not gonna be able to get out. So when you're able to communicate to him in a way that says, I know things aren't the way either one of us want them to be.

• 25:53Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm not asking you to do anything you're uncomfortable with. I'm not trying to change your life. I'm not trying to control. I'm ready to listen and learn more. Those are the kind of things that at least keep the door open. Hear me, that does not mean that the other person, that your son's gonna say, oh, my gosh, let me pick up the phone and call mom. I know you wish it was so. I wish it was so for you, but it's, that's not the way it's gonna happen. It's gonna take repeated just finding ways to leave the door open. Just leave the door open. That's how low the standard is right now.

• 26:35Jefferson Fisher?

  When you're dealing with estrangement, the standard doesn't become, how can we create the greatest relationship? You are fighting for every breath. In that moment, you are truly treading water for as long as you can to keep your head above it, because you know if you stop, that relationship is, that door is gonna close. So if you want to continue that door open, it can't be continuing to pursue and chase when they are not ready and they've sent those signals and boundaries and signs. That does not mean it's not gonna hurt. It's going to hurt. That's what I would recommend of knowing this is a, this is a long play.

• 27:20Jefferson Fisher?

  This is gonna take a lot of time and a lot of trust rebuilding. And that often means that it's gonna take a lot of time and small steps. And that's the opposite of what you want. That's what, that's what you have, all right? All of my thoughts are with you. Just keep, continue to keep the door open. Don't close it. Thanks for the call. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Dose. I have now gotten to the age where cholesterol matters a lot. You go take your blood work and you look and you look at your cholesterol levels and you kind of go,

• 28:02Jefferson Fisher?

  it's like that. Well, let me tell you, I've been using Dose now for probably, I don't know, six, seven months. It's delicious. What it does, it's a cholesterol support supplement that targets triglycerides, your LDL, I mean, I think your HDL levels. And I take it right after meal. It's like a two ounce, they call it, they say it's a shot. It looks like it's a shot, but I don't take it as a shot. I just drink it. It tastes like mango. It's delicious. And it's been something that I use. I know that it has helped my cholesterol levels and impact many of the people on my team now use it because I have been such a fan of it. So if you know somebody in your life that needs to help lower or support their cholesterol

• 28:45Jefferson Fisher?

  levels, look no further than Dose. Go to dosedaily.co/jefferson or use code Jefferson for 35% off your first month subscription. That is dosedaily.co/jefferson. And now let's keep going.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Hi Jefferson, this is Debbie from New York. I've been sober for 13 plus years. My children were in their teens when I got sober and despite my great success at living a sober life, I don't have my daughter's respect or admiration or forgiveness. She is in her adulthood now and is working and employed gainfully and still brings up things from the past that are things I'd apologized for and I still hurt from. Any suggestions how to move forward?

• 29:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you for sharing that. That is, that's huge that you.

• 29:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Even as a teen, when they were in their teens, you took back your life, you got sober, you stayed sober. That's incredible. So I don't want to dismiss that in any way. We now say, okay, what do we have? What do we left with? What do we do?

• 30:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Just because you're sorry for it doesn't mean they still don't feel the hurt.

• 30:05Jefferson Fisher?

  We know how that feels on the other end of it. Just when somebody says, I'm so sorry, doesn't mean all the pain just magically disappears like that. What they're telling you is one,

• 30:17Jefferson Fisher?

  if you continue to hear it, then you haven't heard all of it. So what I'd like to say is if I haven't heard the end of it, then you haven't heard the heart of it. Meaning there is more pain, more depth, more nuance that they haven't shared yet. Okay, that they don't feel like you've attuned to in some way. And I know you might go, Jefferson, I've done all that I can. Listen to me. If they were in the conversation with us right now,

• 30:49Jefferson Fisher?

  most likely there would be some type of feeling that or need that is unmet. I don't know what that is. And you don't know what that is either. But I hear you saying, they don't respect me? They don't respect it yet. Think one day they will. So I don't want you to think that that's never, ever gonna happen. These are, these are big things. So as much time as it took for you to get sober, you need to give them that much time to see that you're not the same person who you were. So you need to give that part of you just as much time as you did the addicted part of you.

• 31:32Jefferson Fisher?

  That's the, that's the time investment that you're in. And I, my gut says you already know this. But when it comes to your daughters, like that kind of conversation, you're gonna have to need to have a lot of tough skin without getting defensive. That means you need to be a safe space. And when they share things that are, that hurt you because they sting, you need to be able to take ownership of that. And then go, you know, you're right, I did do that. If they say, you know what, you were gone all the time. That's not the place where you go, no, I wasn't, I was there, I was present. Were you as present as you could have been? Maybe, maybe not. But here's where, instead of fighting it, you take ownership. You say it's gonna calm them down. You know what? You're right.

• 32:17Jefferson Fisher?

  I did do that. I did. Or I didn't. Whatever it is. You're owning that part of it. The second part, once you've owned it, is you need to say, what else? What am I missing? What am I missing? What else is missing? Be able to get them to talk a little bit more, if they can, if they're willing to, to be able to share something that's

• 32:44Jefferson Fisher?

  inside of them. But this is complex stuff. Maybe they don't have even processed what that feels like yet.

• 32:52Jefferson Fisher?

  I know this sounds like I'm team daughter. I'm not. I'm team repair. Okay? And that doesn't happen without you listening, without getting defensive. I want you to think of the phrases

• 33:09Jefferson Fisher?

  that get them most upset. Right? That they're gonna push back on. That's typically where the truth lies, where the most pain is felt. And so how do we do that? I want you to communicate with ownership. I want you not to get defensive. And I want you to continue to push of, what would it look like for me to gain your trust? What would it look like for me to be the mom you wish I was? Use that phrase. What would it look like? What would it look like for me? What would it mean for you if I were to do this, or do that, or admit to this, or admit to that? Right? That's what it's gonna paint that picture for you.

• 33:54Jefferson Fisher?

  When you can use that phrase, what would it look like for me? That is gonna help open them up a little bit more, to have those really harsh, hard,

• 34:05Jefferson Fisher?

  just really wide open conversations that are gonna feel really raw. But I know- Know that the same way that you're putting all that energy and have been to stay sober, you have all the more energy to bring those girls back and have the relationship you've always wanted. Thank you for the call.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  In the past relationship, I often noticed changes in his behavior that made me feel uncomfortable. When I tried to bring it up, he would tell me the words just in my head and had nothing to do with him. My question is, how can I tell if something is just in my head? Or if something is actually not okay in the relationship? And how do you communicate with someone who keeps dismissing your feelings? Instead of addressing the issue?

• 35:07Speaker 02

  For context, I tend to question myself a lot in those situations. And I'm not sure if I'm overthinking or if I'm just not being heard. I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you.

• 35:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Maggie, that's an awesome question. That's so good. What do you do when somebody is dismissing your feelings? What do you do when you're afraid that, is this really just all in my head? When somebody says, this is, you're just making this up. You're just crazy. This is all in your head. How do you handle that? Number one, the first words out of your mouth when somebody says, you're just making this up in your mind. This is all in your head. You say, I get to decide that.

• 35:53Jefferson Fisher?

  I get to decide that. Nobody gets to decide if this is just all made up in your head. Nobody gets to decide that other than you. Because then, you know who says the stuff of, you're making it all up in your head? That's the person who is trying to distract you. That's the very person who might also be trying to mislead you. Because rather than accepting the ownership and validating and affirming the very fears and needs that you have, they are pushing that back on you in a way to avoid that accountability or to be connected to you in some way. So first off, I want you to be equipped with the phrase and the mindset of, I get to decide that.

• 36:40Jefferson Fisher?

  I get to decide that. And that's a very empowering phrase, not to just say out loud, but also to think, to say, there's a difference between where you stop and I begin. All right. So that's, that's that first thing of I get to decide that. Number two.

• 36:58Jefferson Fisher?

  How do you get it out of your head? If you feel like you, you're really, these racing thoughts is to literally get it out of your head. I want you to get a pen and a paper and write out the very things you're afraid of. Write them all out. You need to see them stone cold. You need to see them black and white out of your head. And so the first question to ask is, what's the story I'm telling myself? Number two is, what do I know to be true? So in one column, you have, what's the story I'm telling myself? What are all the things that are in your head that you're, you feel like you're overthinking in some sense? And the next column is, what do I know to be true? What do I know to be true?

• 37:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Now, if there is an issue there, you go, I'm just really not sure what the truth is. That's when you get to have that conversation with somebody who says that they are in this relationship with you to say, I, I need to discuss something that's really important to me. And I need to, to know some things like where we stand, where I'm at, where you're at, so that we can find each other in this conversation. But you, you first have to get it out of your head. What's the story I'm telling myself? Get it out.

• 38:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Next is, what do I know to be true? And that truth is something that you get to choose. And nobody gets to choose that for you, remember? Number one is, I get to decide that. They also don't get to choose your truth. That's, that's yours and yours alone. Okay. Number three, if somebody is dismissing your feelings in some sense, I want you to understand that when they are dismissing the feelings, it's usually because one of two reasons. One, they don't have the capacity for it.

• 38:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Or two,

• 38:54Jefferson Fisher?

  They deeply are feeling

• 38:59Jefferson Fisher?

  too dismissive of it. So, big feelings might make them shut down. Big feelings might feel very scary to them. Or there could certainly be shame involved, where they don't want to accept the harm and feelings, or pain, or anxiety that they're causing you. So, whenever you feel like somebody is dismissing your feelings, I want you to be able to vocalize that. So, let me give you one of the quickest ways, to me, one of the fastest ways to be able to share that thought. Instead of that "you never, you always", I want you to break it down into what they call in therapy, or "when you I feel" statements.

• 39:44Jefferson Fisher?

  "When you do this, I feel this." Instead of "you're dismissing my feelings", I want you to say, "when you walk out in the middle of me sharing something important, I feel like you don't care about what I talk about, and my feelings don't matter to you." You hear how you're taking it away from the defensive "you", to a more controlled "I", "when you I feel." So, that to me is a very first, basic building block, because what you gave me was a lot of information, and what you're dealing with is not easy. But I need you to know that you're not crazy. All right?

• 40:25Jefferson Fisher?

  I can't even say that. Nobody gets to say that, aside from you. That's yours, and yours alone. All right? Thank you for the call. When I was a young person, I was in trouble, ended up in prison, lost my kids, spent many years there, got out, got a college degree, got my kids back, moved forward with my life. I'm almost 70 now. The problem is that often people in my family bring up my past. And it's upsetting to me. I just don't know how to address it with them and tell them that I'm, don't want to hear it anymore. It's over. Holy smokes. Congratulations, first off.

• 41:09Jefferson Fisher?

  What a story, a testimony to say, look at what all I've been through and more. And to now be at the age you are and overcome so much. Cause I know you just hit the highlights. I mean, there's so much more depth I can tell to what you just said. How do we deal with people who keep bringing up the past when it's not part of your present?

• 41:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Here's the first thing I want you to consider.

• 41:42Jefferson Fisher?

  We don't get today without all of that. We don't, we don't get this without all of that. You don't have your present personality, all of that. That those, that pain, those troubles, that period, that is part of you. You don't, you don't get you today without all of that. All right. Because it's, it's led you to who you are today. So I want to put that there. That doesn't take away from the fact that, yeah, I don't enjoy talking about it. I don't enjoy being reminded about it. I understand that's separate. I just, I want to make sure that you know, deep in your heart, that you don't get this without all of that. That's, that's part of you. And I want you to take that as a strength rather than something to hide.

• 42:28Jefferson Fisher?

  I want you to be, you don't have to be proud about it. But you do own it because you get to live it. And I think that's your honor and your privilege and your blessing to be able to say, yes, and.

• 42:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, and you want to look at my past? Yes, but let me tell you about my victory. Look at, look at where I am today. That's incredible. Okay, not everybody gets to tell that kind of story. Now, let's move to two. Man, it doesn't feel good to bring up when somebody keeps talking about it. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. If I were you, I would not like it either. So what do we do? It's going to require a separate conversation, not when it's happening. We're going to get through it. It's a separate conversation with that individual. Okay, and that conversation needs to sound like, I need you to stop bringing up this. Be very specific about it.

• 43:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Because the past is part of you. You need to be very specific if there's an element that really bothers you. Because it's, it's easy to talk about stories or life, because that's probably some of their life too. And it's, it's, it overlaps and it's difficult to, because it bleeds into everything, right? So the more specific you can be, the better it's going to help them. To say, when you, when you bring this up, it really has a negative impact on me. Okay, I need you to not bring that up anymore. So this is, this is, let's put it in a boundary phrase. All right, let's move to, let's, so number two is, you need to talk about it with them in a separate conversation. So let's go into three of,

• 44:08Jefferson Fisher?

  how do you have that conversation? We're going to put up a very quick, easy, simple boundary.

• 44:14Jefferson Fisher?

  And it goes, it would go like this. I need you to not bring up, let's just call it my past for right now. I need you to not bring up that moment in my past. If you continue to mention it,

• 44:29Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm not going to be able to come to this family function, or I'm going to need to take a step away. You need to decide for you, I can't decide it for you. You need to decide, what's going to be the consequence of them continuing to bring it up? It could be harsh, it could be easy. Whatever it is, you need to say that. Thanks for the question.

• 44:49Speaker 04

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