#439 – Craig Jones: Jiu Jitsu, $2 Million Prize, CJI, ADCC, Ukraine & Trolling

Craig Jones is a legendary jiu jitsu personality, competitor, co-founder of B-Team, and organizer of the CJI tournament that offers over $2 million in prize money. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep439-sc See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/craig-jones-2-transcript CONTACT LEX: Feedback – give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey AMA – submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama Hiring – join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring Other – other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact EPISODE LINKS: CJI tickets: https://lexfridman.com/cji CJI on B-Team’s YouTube: https://youtube.com/bteamjiujitsu Craig Jones’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/craigjonesbjj Craig Jones’s Instructionals: https://bjjfanatics.com/collections/craig-jones B-Team’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/bteamjj/ B-Team’s Website: https://bteamjj.com/ SPONSORS: To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts: Eight Sleep: Temp-controlled smart mattress. Go to https://eightsleep.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/eight_sleep-ep439-sc LMNT: Zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix. Go to https://drinkLMNT.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/lmnt-ep439-sc BetterHelp: Online therapy and counseling. Go to https://betterhelp.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/betterhelp-ep439-sc NetSuite: Business management software. Go to http://netsuite.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/netsuite-ep439-sc Shopify: Sell stuff online. Go to https://shopify.com/lex https://lexfridman.com/s/shopify-ep439-sc ExpressVPN: Fast & secure VPN. Go to https://expressvpn.com/lexpod https://lexfridman.com/s/expressvpn-ep439-sc OUTLINE: (00:00) – Introduction (12:20) – $1 million in cash (14:24) – Kazakhstan (16:49) – Ukraine (48:58) – Bali (56:18) – CJI (1:07:20) – Gabi Garcia (1:10:14) – The Alley (1:25:24) – Gordon Ryan and Nicholas Meregali (1:32:18) – Trolling (1:35:06) – ADCC (1:45:19) – Training camp (1:57:01) – Breaking legs (1:57:44) – Advice for beginners (2:04:23) – Volk (2:13:26) – Future of jiu jitsu (2:16:32) – Steroids (2:20:01) – Hope PODCAST LINKS: – Podcast Website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr – Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 – RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ – Podcast Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 – Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/lexclips

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, martial artist, world traveler, and one of the funniest people in the sport of submission grappling. While he does make fun of himself a lot, he is legitimately one of the greatest submission grapplers in the world. And underneath the veil of nonstop, sexualized Aussie humor and incessant online trolling, he is truly a kind-hearted human being who's trying to do good in the world. Sometimes he does so through a bit of controversy and chaos, like with the new CGI tournament that has over $2 million in prize money, and it's coming up this Friday and Saturday.

• 0:44Lex Fridman?

  Yes, the same weekend as the prestigious ADCC tournament. The goal of CGI tournament is to grow the sport, so you'll be able to watch it for free, online, live on YouTube and other places. All ticket profits go to charity, mainly to cancer research, so I encourage you to support the mission of this tournament by buying tickets and going to see the event in person. Craig gave me a special link that gives you a 50% discount on the tickets. Go to lexfridman.com/cji and it should forward you to the right place. They're trying to sell the last few tickets now. It's a good cause, go buy some. And also let me say, as a fan of the sport, I highly encourage you to watch both CGI

• 1:29Lex Fridman?

  and ADCC and to celebrate athletes competing in both. From CGI with Nicky Ryan, Nicky Rod, Rotola Brothers, Fion Davis, Mackenzie Dern, and more, to ADCC with Gordon Ryan, Nicholas Margoli, Giancarlo Boudoni, Rafael Lovato Jr., Mika Galvao, and more. I have a lot of respect for everyone involved. I train with many of them regularly and consider many of them friends, including Craig, Gordon, and of course, John Donahue, who I will talk to many, many more times on this podcast.

• 2:04Lex Fridman?

  And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Asleep for naps, Element for hydration, BetterHelp for mental health, NetSuite for business stuff, Shopify for selling stuff online, and ExpressVPN for privacy on the interwebs. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, there's a bunch of ways to get in touch with me. If you want to give feedback, go to lexfridman.com/survey. If you want to submit questions or videos or call-ins for me to answer on the podcast, go to lexfridman.com/ama. And there's a bunch of other ways at lexfridman.com/contact. And now on to the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle.

• 2:49Lex Fridman?

  I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too.

• 2:57Lex Fridman?

  This episode is brought to you by Asleep and it's Pod4Ultra. It is a pretty interesting mystery of what's going on in the brain while we sleep. Because it's not like the thing shuts off. It's actually a pretty active and dynamic process. It's also humbling that we need sleep. It is a little death. It is a thing like food that our body requires. And that, to me, is humbling. It's another reminder that we're mortal, another reminder that we're merely human, that we're merely a biological organism. In fact, it's a reminder that not just our organism, our body,

• 3:41Lex Fridman?

  but the entirety of human civilization is fragile. I've been studying a lot about both ancient civilizations and the modern civilizations that were driven by ideologies, especially the communist ideologies. And I'll probably do a few videos on those, certainly a few podcasts, just thinking deeply about the ideas that drive humanity. Anyway, all of these things I dream and think about when I'm laying on the extremely comfortable Asleep bed that controls the temperature and, boy, isn't needed on these hot Texas summer nights. Go to asleep.com/lex and use code Lex to get 350 bucks off the Pod4Ultra.

• 4:28Lex Fridman?

  This episode is also brought to you by Element, my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix. It is one of the most delicious things I consume in a day on days like this. So yesterday I had a really hard training session in jujitsu. I did, I don't know, 10, 11 rounds, maybe. And it's just all the water from my body is gone because I usually don't drink water when I'm training, not for any particular reason, but just because I don't want to take a break. I really want to go to a place where I'm exhausted. And so, once I'm done with training, the level of deliciousness that a cold water with

• 5:09Lex Fridman?

  a watermelon salt powder from Element is difficult to describe. It's really, really refreshing. And I found that if I don't consume electrolytes after training like that, like I start getting a headache and I just start feeling off. And so replenishing the electrolytes after is really important. And of course, I also make sure I drink Element beforehand as well. But yeah, all that is important to support the body when you're doing those difficult training sessions. And it is one of the things that allows me to escape whatever the turmoil that's going on in my mind. And the community, the art of it, I love it all. Get a sample pack for free with any purchase.

• 5:53Lex Fridman?

  Try it at drinkelement.com/lex. This episode is also brought to you by BetterHelp, spelled H E L P, help. They figure out what you need to match you with a licensed therapist in under 48 hours. I think in this episode Craig brings up doing a couples therapy with Gordon. You know, I'm a big fan of those guys, training with them and just the way they approach this really complicated art and their ability to achieve sort of world-class.

• 6:25Lex Fridman?

  Level and consistently innovate, I'll innovate everybody else. It's so fascinating to watch. So part of me hates that there's shit talking going on online. I understand it's part of the sport, but I do hope that there is, at least amongst the fans, more celebration of the athletes involved. And I'm now still working through the footage of the Olympics for Judo and wrestling. It's just, I love all the sort of one-on-one combat sports and all of the Olympics in general and all sports, but I love football and basketball. Steve Curry's performance at this Olympics is just like legendary. You can't look away. That guy was just on fire.

• 7:08Lex Fridman?

  I love it when an athlete steps up and it's their day and it's just perfection. Anyway, check out BetterHelp at betterhelp.com/lex and save on your first month. That's betterhelp.com/lex. This episode is also brought to you by NetSuite, an all-in-one cloud business management system. It is the machine within the machine of a business that provides a common language where the different modules of the business can communicate all the messy stuff. It really was fascinating to watch the rate of progress that XAI is doing and Tesla is doing on building up their compute center. It's fascinating to see the process of a business solving the puzzles and doing so

• 7:53Lex Fridman?

  rapidly and figuring out how to construct a collection of humans that is able to develop processes, simplify them, optimize them, and all of that together efficiently without any kind of bottlenecks. Or if there's bottlenecks, you remove the bottlenecks and doing so at a rapid rate and iterate, iterate, iterate, all of that. That's the difference between successful businesses and not, or not just successful, but revolutionary businesses. It truly is beautiful to watch. The art of cutting through the bullshit of bureaucracy really is beautiful. And yeah, you should have the right tools for the job and NetSuite is good.

• 8:35Lex Fridman?

  And NetSuite is trusted by 37,000 companies that have upgraded to it. Take advantage of NetSuite's flexible financing plan at netsuite.com/lex. That's netsuite.com/lex.

• 8:50Lex Fridman?

  This episode is brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great online store. Shopify is an exemplary sort of manifestation of capitalism, the good side of capitalism. I've been working on a video on communism, the history of communism, because a lot of people have been throwing around the word communism, fascism, and all of that. And I've been taking seriously the understanding of the history of these movements and ideologies, and taking seriously the words and the meaning behind the words, and the historical meaning behind the words, the economic system, the political system, implications of those systems, all of that.

• 9:35Lex Fridman?

  Just understanding the history, understanding the ideas, and explaining them and internalizing them seriously, and walking through the fire calmly. But anyway, Shopify is a platform where a very large number of people can sell stuff and a very large number of people can buy stuff, and they're free to do so. And the system is very low friction for everybody involved. So there is a small manifestation of the vibrant market of individuals, humans, interacting and flourishing together.

• 10:17Lex Fridman?

  So sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/lex. That's all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com/lex to take your business to the next level today. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. I use them to protect my privacy on the internet. Now, of course, on the topic of communism that I've been researching, and not just communism, but totalitarian regimes, often these utilize mass surveillance. And not just totalitarian regimes, but all societies, there's a temptation by those in centralized control

• 11:02Lex Fridman?

  to maintain power.

• 11:05Lex Fridman?

  To maintain leverage on the people. There's a temptation to utilize mass surveillance. And of course, the job of the people is to fight back. Fight for their privacy. Fight for their freedom of speech, freedom of thought, all of that. All of that that fights off the descent into the dystopian worlds of the 1984 ilk. Anyway, a good VPN is step one of protecting yourself. And I've always been using ExpressVPN. I love it. It's fast, works on any device and operating system, including Linux. My favorite operating system.

• 11:46Lex Fridman?

  Go to expressvpn.com/lexpod for an extra three months free. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, I invite you all to come to the pool with Craig Jones and me.

• 12:21Lex Fridman?

  When you brought the $1 million in cash on Rogan's podcast, did you have security with you?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  We had security, but only by Joe Rogan's request. Cause he said, you're really gonna bring it?

• 12:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Do you have security? I said, no. He's like, don't worry about it. I'll send my security.

• 12:37Lex Fridman?

  So you were gonna do without security?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna win. I thought, I mean, I was told not to tell anyone.

• 12:43Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  But I sent pictures of it to everyone I know.

• 12:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  So that was probably a security risk.

• 12:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So it's just you and a car with a bag of cash?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a company that sponsors me, shuffle.com. It was their friend, a friend of theirs. So a guy that's never met me before.

• 12:58Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Just took the risk to show up to a stranger's house with a million dollars in cash. To bring to Joe Rogan. It was a big risk of him.

• 13:04Lex Fridman?

  And you just put it in the car and drove it?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Drove it over there, yeah.

• 13:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Well, no security except Joe.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Except Joe.

• 13:09Lex Fridman?

  That's common sense.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  And then Joe said he'd never seen a million dollars before.

• 13:13Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  But I don't know if I believe him.

• 13:16Lex Fridman?

  That's what everyone says. That's what Pablo Escobar probably says also. What's your relationship with risk? Especially with the risk of death.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  I would say I'm very risk averse.

• 13:26Lex Fridman?

  You are. No, you're not. That's a lie.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  My relationship with risk, I like a bit of excitement. I like a bit of adventure. I'm more about the adventure, but I will not let the risk get in the way of it. And also, obviously, just got back from Ukraine. I'm happy to take a few risks if it's part of what the locals want me to do. You know what I mean? Like in Kazakhstan, we did some things that were dangerous. Like if the locals are like, come along, join in on this activity, I feel personally obligated to go with them.

• 13:58Lex Fridman?

  So it's not about the risk, like you're not attracted to risk, you're attracted to adventure and the risk is a thing you don't give a damn about.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:06Lex Fridman?

  If it comes along with it.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Sometimes the best adventures involve the most risk, unfortunately.

• 14:10Lex Fridman?

  Speaking of which, you went to Ukraine, like you said, twice recently.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Twice, really pushed the limit there.

• 14:16Lex Fridman?

  Including to the front?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  To the front.

• 14:18Lex Fridman?

  Tell me the, uh, the full story of that from the beginning. How did you end up in Ukraine?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  So we're in Kazakhstan, we're doing some filming in Kazakhstan and obviously Borats still a very traumatic memory for them.

• 14:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  And some of my jokes felt like they don't go as well in that neck of the woods. So we had some difficulty filming out there. So we filmed this horse game. Have you ever heard of Kokbah?

• 14:42Lex Fridman?

  Thanks to you, yes.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  It's a game, a very, very old game. They cut a goat or a sheep. I didn't get too close to look at it, but they cut its head and legs off and they use it as some form of bull. And then they'll have like up to a thousand guys on horses violently trying to pick this up and drop it in the other end's goals, basically. The goals used to be concrete. Now it's just a tarp, but local business owners will throw down huge amounts of money for the winners. And these horses have been trained from a very young age. The riders have been trained. I've never ridden a horse before. We wanted to film something that made it look like I was going to go into the horse pit, into the Kokbah pit. However, the drunk stunt man that we used.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Just decided that when he took my horse reins, he would take me straight into the pit instead of ending the shot there. So I was in there amongst, I guess, the horse riders, the cock by riders. And we weren't leaving. We just were in there for quite a while. And he was just, he could talk a little, he could talk English pretty well, actually. And he's like, oh, I thought you'd want to check it out from the inside. And then while we're in there, someone picked up the sort of carcass and a wave of horse riders came at me. I was quite concerned at that point. Cause they're bashing into each other and obviously they're angry they're seeing a foreigner in there. I was wearing like basically Biggie Smalls, Coogee, Gecko looking sweater. So I stood out. They definitely didn't like that I was participating in a game that they probably trained their whole life for.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  And that amount of money they could win is very, very significant. And there's me in there. They're also pointing out Borat, Borat, thinking I was making Borat jokes, which again, very traumatic memory for the people of Kazakhstan. Were you making Borat jokes? No, but I guess it's the same type of humor. But Sure. Just, I guess, I'm not pretending to be Kazakh. I'm just there being an idiot and enjoying the local culture. But we're over there in Kazakhstan, we did that, that was obviously a bit risky. Did they learn to love you? I think they learnt to love me and then to hate me again. So it was like a bit of a all encompassing relationship for the Kazakh people. But we, we basically abandoned ship. It was proven too difficult to film some things, some sensitive subjects over there. And I said, where should we go next?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And I just looked at the map and I was like, we're near Ukraine. Ukraine was a place that I'd been offered to teach a jujitsu seminar prior to, I guess, the war commencing, the full scale war commencing. And we're looking for a bit of adventure, something interesting to film, something following the news. Uh, obviously very controversial in the news, people have very strong opinions. And I was like, let's go over there, let's throw a charity event, let's do something, let's train with the people and really experience of ourselves. So we set up the seminar. Turned out to be the biggest seminar for jujitsu in Ukrainian history, which is wild considering obviously they are at war, but everyone came together to support it. And one of the soldiers there, one of my friends there, good friend now, who's on the front line, he made a comment on there.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  And he said, hey, like this is a seminar to donate profits to the soldiers, but we're on the front line. And I was like, you know what? I'll come to you. And he's like, listen, I can't promise you'll survive, but I'll promise you'll have a good time. And I said, that's all I needed to hear. So we connected and my friend Roman, we went really, really close. I think we were at the closest point seven kilometers from the frontline. Obviously, very surreal experience to be over there, seeing basically how the battles fought with all drones. How long ago was this? I think it would have been March or April. So we went there, we went, basically spent two nights up on the frontline.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Went back to Kiev and that was it for that trip. In terms of crazy stuff that happens, obviously just the people living, like you download the air defense tracker. So anytime there could be an air siren going off, an air alert on your phone, could be like drones heading your way, planes are in the air, missiles flying. And then those missiles will change direction and stuff. So the air alert, you don't know if it's heading a different direction, but they just sort of warn everyone. So you live under a constant state of of fear, basically. And then on that first trip, the heaviest moment was I was going downstairs in the hotel to work out, which is honestly a rare thing these days, doing something healthy with myself. You working out? Getting in the gym, pumping some iron. And this was divine intervention

• 19:07Speaker 01

  that a hypersonic missile was shot down by the Patriot defense system just like five minutes from the hotel. So the whole hotel and the attached gym just shook like crazy. And people start, some people started freaking out. Most people went to leave to go outside, which I don't think is recommended. But you want to see what's going on out there. This was in Kiev? This was in Kiev. So it got shot down and then some of the local troops actually took me to the site of where just part of the missile had landed in the ground and left this huge sort of indentation. They'd already cleared up most of the, I guess, shrapnel from the missile. I don't know if I should or if I was legally allowed to do this, but I took some of that missile back home with me. I don't know where I left it, actually.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  But I thought maybe that would raise some alarm bells and airport scans, but I took, I took it regardless. And that was basically the craziest thing that happened on that first trip.

• 20:00Lex Fridman?

  The Patriot defense system is incredible. It's an incredible piece of technology. And that's from the United States. It's expensive, but it's incredible. And then, so that's protecting Kiev.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  That's protecting Kiev, yeah. That was at the time where US hadn't voted to, I guess, keep funding the weapons over there. So it was kind of a tense moment because I think, I don't know, everyone was thinking like, when do those air defense missiles run out? So that was a heavy moment for me thinking, look at what it shot out the sky. Like, imagine if that didn't, they didn't have that. But we, yeah, that was probably the most surreal moment. But Kiev largely, life goes on most of the time as per normal. I was faced with crazy messages and comments, even just posting that video. Like I'm getting paid by Ukraine and stuff. And it's just like, people just don't understand that like life has to go on. Like Kiev's here, the front line's far away.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Like the cities have to largely try to operate as normal or just life. Life will not go on in those villages and cities.

• 21:04Lex Fridman?

  Well, it's human nature as well. It's not just Kiev, it's Kharkiv, it's even Donbass. Kherson, people get accustomed to work quickly. Because it's impossible to suffer for prolonged periods of time. So you get, you adjust and you appreciate the things you still have.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a baller moves out there. I love seeing like people that just crazy stuff's going on from the war and they don't even react to it. They don't go to the bomb shelter. It's like a baller move, like I'm not going to change my lifestyle. Actually, on that first trip as well, something else that I probably shouldn't have been allowed to do was go to Chernobyl.

• 21:37Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  So Chernobyl, I believe troops came through Belarus and there was some fighting going on in Chernobyl. I think the whole world got concerned at that point if any sort of radiation leaked. But Chernobyl as it stands, the troops backed down and it's completely covered in mines. Very, very difficult to go to Chernobyl. Basically, as a tourist or as like, I guess, an idiot like myself, should really probably not be allowed in a place like that. But we were able to get there. We passed like four security checkpoints. It took two attempts. First time we tried to go in, that was with the special forces guy. We cleared two security gates. Then they stopped us and basically threatened us with arrest.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I rightfully so, really have no business going to Chernobyl. We made a connection, I won't say this connection was, but he had heard about what I had done sort of with a charity event and opened some doors for us to be able to go to Chernobyl. So we got to see Chernobyl. We had some filming restrictions there just because it was a crazy military sort of conflict at one point. And we got to actually see Chernobyl. Chernobyl has always been a dream of mine to see because it's just such an interesting place. And to see it under these conditions, very, very strange.

• 22:52Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. What was that like? So there's no civilians there now?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  It's just completely empty. I guess it's kind of like the fantasy you have. I imagine people going tours of Chernobyl back in the tourist days when it was a tourist spot and it would be busy, full of tourists. We got basically a private tour. So we got to really feel that abandoned sort of vibes. I guess I was interested in it from playing Call of Duty and then

• 23:15Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Chernobyl series, all the documentaries and stuff, but very, very strange place to go visit.

• 23:20Lex Fridman?

  And it is now a minefield, like a lot of parts of Ukraine. That's one of the dark, terrifying aspects of wars, how many mines are left, even when the war ends. For decades after, there's mines everywhere because demining is extremely difficult. And that, that could continually kill people.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  I don't think it'll be a tourist spot for a very long time because if you were thinking about areas to demine when the conflict ends, an area where if you accidentally trigger a mine could cause a radiation leak, it's probably going to be very low on the list. So tourism for Chernobyl, who knows how long until that returns?

• 24:01Lex Fridman?

  Why do you think you were able to, to get to Chernobyl? Is there, why, why don't you think

• 24:08Lex Fridman?

  Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian soldiers don't see you as a threat?

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Maybe they were hoping I did step on a mine. Maybe my jokes didn't go too well there.

• 24:16Lex Fridman?

  So your connection was actually Putin. He was trying to get rid of you.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Putin, yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Now, I don't know. I mean, we felt pretty safe when we were there. There was an air alert went off. They were kind of more concerned with me dying just for the PR side of things. It's like Australian tourists.

• 24:32Lex Fridman?

  In one of your videos, I actually, you know, heard Ukrainian language. They were talking about, we don't want to lose an athlete. That's what they're saying as you're loading the rocket launcher.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, the rocket launcher. I shot a rocket launcher with the troops on the first trip, but the second trip I went back to, which was only maybe four to five weeks ago.

• 24:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  This time we went to some crazier spots. So we went to Odessa, which has been hit a ton.

• 24:58Lex Fridman?

  I really enjoyed the video of old man stretching and like exercising on the.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, what is that? Is that a local, local custom?

• 25:06Lex Fridman?

  Well, Odessa people are known historically to be wild.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  That was wild. It was abrasive to the eyes, but I appreciated it, especially a middle aged man in underwear with a beer belly doing a sundance at dusk. That would frighten many people.

• 25:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The battleship would turn around. Yeah. So where else?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  We went, yeah. So we went Odessa. We briefly went back to Kyiv. We, so I made a connection with the police chief of basically the entire country last time. And he had said to me that if I wanted to go somewhere sort of really heavy in terms of action, we could go to Kherson. And he's like, I'll personally escort you to Kherson. And I was just like, well, here we have an invitation for adventure. I think it's a great idea to go. And I thought, you know what? I'll completely lie to my cameraman and tell him it's a safe trip to go on so that he can pass that information on to his fiance.

• 26:03Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  And she won't have any concerns.

• 26:05Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  So we basically take this huge journey all the way down to Kherson. We switch at a city outside. I can't remember the name, but we had to switch to sort of armored vehicles. And I remember the guy that picked us up there said, hey, give me a phone number. Uh for someone to call to recover your bodies. Yeah. And he said that in a joking way, but I think he was serious. But I said, just leave it, you know? I'm not, I don't think they need, I don't think we much left probably if we get hit over there. But we go basically into Kursan. I think Kursan's population used to be like two hundred and fifty thousand. Now it's like basically all military down to fifty thousand. So we went into the police, basically stationed in the bunker underneath the top of the building was destroyed. And then one of the local guys just took us on a city tour.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Which again, we had some filming restrictions because obviously anytime something's hit. I guess the other side wants to be able to see what damage has been done. So if you take any footage of recently destroyed buildings, that's going to help them recalibrate. And target the next shot. So Kursan being so heavily hit, it's basically within range of every single thing Russia has, every form of weapon, drones. Before we took the tour, he put some drone blocking things on top of the car. Which didn't look reassuring. He also took a helmet out the back of the car, which I thought he was going to give to me. But he just threw it in the back of the pickup truck and said, oh, you you won't need this, you'll be dead anyway. And I was like, oh, I've made a great life decision with this little Kursan tour.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  But then we took a tour of the city and Kursan used to be kind of like a beautiful beach city by the Dnipro River. But basically it's just the river that separates Russia from, uh, well, I guess the Russian land they've they've taken from Kursan. So Kursan split across that river and there's just Russians on the other side of the river. And Ukrainians on this side. So very, very dangerous spot. Kharkiv makes a lot of press because of the long range missiles that hit, but Kursan's just being hit all the time. So we took this tour, we went along the river, we went to within one kilometer of the frontline. So that was the closest we got. After this point, we heard artillery strike.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  And because you're in an armored vehicle, it sounds further away than it is. Obviously, the sound doesn't get in. So I thought it sounded far away. We could see some smoke that actually appeared closer in the distance. The guy driving us took us to a point where a large building was blocking us from, I guess, the angle at which the missile would have came from. And I thought, well, I thought everything was cool. Thought it was, that must have been off in the distance. And then we heard two more strikes hit very, very close. They sounded really loud. And then I think he's radioing in to see if everything's safe, if we can leave this point. And then we basically raced back. But we started to realize we're in danger at any point where he really sped the car up or sort of took sort of evasive movements in the car.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  But we got out of there and I think I had someone translate it later. And basically, yeah, he was checking to see if the roads were clear for us to leave. Ultimately, it ended up being someone died and a few people were injured from that blast, which was less than half a kilometer from us. And basically, they were radioing, saying, end the tour, come back to the police station.

• 29:26Lex Fridman?

  Artillery is terrifying because there's just shelling. And it's the destructive power of artillery is insane.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's constant all the time. Yeah, and you hear that noise and you're like, is that coming or going? Very, very concerning.

• 29:40Lex Fridman?

  Right. You don't know.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:42Lex Fridman?

  You don't know. And just like that, it could be you. You're gone.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Last time the village we went to, basically, it was the day we left. So we stayed there overnight. The day we left, it just started getting extremely shelled. And the soldier we were with just took a selfie video of us. And basically, the location we were in, just hearing just artillery strike after artillery strike, just being like, oh, you guys left and the fun began. So they, they take it in good spirit. I was trying to use their energy to reassure myself, but I guess when they see it every day. It's they're kind of more adjusted to it. They're not like they're not freaking out every time something crazy like that goes on.

• 30:26Lex Fridman?

  Well, they have to, right? They have to be in good spirit. You have to be joking and laughing and.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, the guys are always laughing and joking. They were laughing and joking at me quite a bit, holding weapons, trying to shoot weapons and stuff. They got a lot of enjoyment out of me shooting the RPG.

• 30:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, they're probably still telling stories. That crazy Australian American that rolled in.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  They helped they helped me out, though, in my marketing campaign for the tournament. We were able to secure a Lada, classic Soviet Union car. We towed it, we painted it with the logos of the other event, the ADCC.

• 31:01Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  And we got to shoot some RPGs at it.

• 31:04Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Great experience, great fun.

• 31:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's a very creative marketing campaign.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Very dangerous one.

• 31:10Lex Fridman?

  I don't think like Coke or Pepsi are gonna do that one. So it's very, very innovative.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  It was a bold move. Luckily, they let me get away with posting it. But when we were there, it was at a basically at a shooting range and we cleared them out for a while. So we'd blown up the car, we'd set it on fire, we'd done all this sort of stuff. I remember we were trying to blow it up. It wasn't quite hitting. One of the missiles was lodged in under the car, so it was kind of risky. That could have gone off at any moment, but we needed to get it to ignite. We needed to get a shot where it was on fire. The logo of the enemy tournament was basically on fire. So we poured gasoline on it. We shot the gasoline tank. That didn't work. That must be a movie trick or something. And then we decided we had light on fire a rag and just throw it into the blown out back window. So I'm with this guy, a special forces guy, and we throw the rag in the back.

• 31:59Lex Fridman?

  Like soaked in gasoline rag?

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we start running. And he's like, stop, stop. He's like, it didn't go off. So we're sitting there quite close to the car, lighting it, trying to light more as we walk back to the car. And then we just hear the car ignite and he's like, run, run, run. So we came quite close to death already at that point. But we wanted to get the shot with some photos in front of the burning logos. But we had told the guys at the shooting range to basically give us 10 minutes or so. So we could take the photos. I don't know if they didn't wait the full 10 minutes or if we took too long, but they started firing at the targets anyway. And then the ricochets were flying very, very close to us over our head. One landed right by my leg. We're like, shit, we better get out

• 32:42Speaker 01

  of here. Obviously, not much safety concerns at that point, but we survived basically artillery strikes. We survived a bit of friendly fire with the bullets coming our way. But again, I was strangely calm because the other guys were calm. But then afterwards, they were, they said to me, they were like, oh, bro, if you got shot, we just have to dump your body at a hospital. We wouldn't be able to explain why you're here blowing up cars. Right, right. And you're American and athlete, international celebrity. They'd be like, what is, what is he doing on the front line? There's no real good explanation for it. But I mean, even through the jokes and stuff, it's good to like, highlight what's actually kind of happening over there, you know, it's obviously very, very bad.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  What's the morale of the soldiers like? Is there still an optimism? Is there still a hope? I mean, there's sort of the battle fatigue, you know, and as they say, like, all the heroes die early, you know, the guys that the real heroes that are willing to sacrifice themselves, they're the ones that are going to get taken out quick. Unfortunately, that's the reality from over there. But their thoughts are mostly that it's going to be a prolonged war. Like when I ask them about how fast the frontline moves, they're like, oh, it could take six months to move one, 200 meters. So it just feels like it's going to go on forever. And from the Ukrainian side's perspective, those guys talk to me about how when they hear radio intercepts of Russian

• 34:05Speaker 01

  soldiers marching to the same frontline spot is that basically they're marching into certain death at certain locations. And based on the radio transmissions, they know they're going to die, but they head forth anyway, straightforward into a Ukrainian position, which is just wild to me. I guess our World War II, they just keep throwing troops at it. And you see a ton of footage they take themselves, which is mind blowing. Obviously, some of this footage doesn't make it to the internet because it's got important sort of details in those conflicts. But like, they're showing first person perspectives of trench warfare. It's just crazy to see what some of these guys have have gone through.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  So I went to a lot of the same places as well, including Kherson.

• 34:55Lex Fridman?

  What was your sense of the place?

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Kursk almost like it was just so destroyed. I think at this point, most of the civilians are gone.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  I saw a lot of just elderly people left behind, especially a lot of old men. And I just think they're just like, hey, I've lived in my whole life. I'm just never leaving. So no matter the level of danger, those guys just remain. And then for the, it's largely just, I guess, military in Kursk. But that place felt very, very dangerous. I didn't realize until we got there just quite how destroyed it is.

• 35:28Lex Fridman?

  How did that experience change you? Just seeing war head on?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  How did it change me? I guess just realizing a lot of these soldiers are just like, you kind of distance yourself from them, thinking that they're something separate. But really speaking to a lot of the Ukrainian soldiers, like my friend Roman, he hadn't lived in Ukraine for eight years. He lived in France. He had a life. He's got a wife over there. He's got a daughter. He basically volunteered to come back to protect his mom and brother who still live there. So it's like, you sort of, I used to view them military guys because in Australia, and I guess in the US, they don't have this conscription ongoing right now. You know what I mean? Like whereas obviously there's guys like Roman who volunteered,

• 36:16Speaker 01

  but then there's a lot of Ukrainian soldiers that were conscripted into the war. So it's like, you just realize how a lot of these guys are everyday people. They're just in this crazy situation where Roman felt obligated to return to Ukraine. Like from my perspective, anyone in it from Australia or US, just, it's just a different perspective on like those, they feel different to the regular people fighting in Ukraine, from my perspective.

• 36:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's defending the land that is your home.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Japan was coming for Australia. I guess in World War Two, they attacked the North, but really there was no foot battle and there was no soldiers on the ground within Australia. I guess US too during World War Two. So it's like a completely different perspective. From our recent histories compared to like if you were Ukrainian and there's Russians within the defined border, their responsibility to protect their homeland and their family is just something you can't imagine. But also after having spent time with them, you can see why they feel such a strong sense of obligation to protect, uh, to protect Ukraine, protect their family and friends.

• 37:26Lex Fridman?

  And in a lot of cases, uh, the, the soldiers are using their own funds to buy equipment, uh, whether it's bullets, whether it's guns, whether it's armor. Is that still what you saw?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, in terms of the weapons, America provides weapons. So we saw a wide selection of weapons. Some of those would be old Soviet weapons, like obviously the RPG we shot and what we shot out of it is all Soviet. It's very old weaponry. And then you've got US weapons that have been given as well. But in terms of the basic soldiers' equipment, like if they want good quality stuff, that might be the difference between them surviving the winter or the summer, just in the extreme temperature range, like they have to pay for that all themselves. So they always joke about when foreign soldiers come over to train them or they, a lot of foreign soldiers come to learn about sort

• 38:22Speaker 01

  of the drone technology they've developed on a budget is they always joke with them about how like everything from most countries is basically supplied. All the good quality, standard equipment they'd need is just supplied by the government. But in Ukraine, obviously funding is very stretched. So these guys, they have the best equipment. They have to basically find money to pay for themselves and they'll do that by seeking donations. Best way to get donations would be to grow social media profiles. So that's when you see a lot of sort of social media warfare from a perspective of gaining fame to secure donations for their battalion, to be able to fight better or protect themselves. And also some of the social media warfare, I guess, is psychological warfare against the enemy.

• 39:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  You'll see like private Telegram groups where they're showing what they've done to the enemy, what the enemy's done to them. It's just cra- it's just crazy.

• 39:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's Telegram groups on both sides and it's basically, some of it is propaganda, some of it is psychological warfare. Some of it is just the human nature of being like. Of increasing your own morale and the morale of the people around you by showing off successfully killing other human beings, which are made other in war. And the nature of this war has evolved. So drones have become more and more prevalent. They're consumer level, cheap drones. Can you speak to that? Have you seen, have you seen the use of FPV, FPV drones?

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I mean, basically like a $300 to $500 drone. I think it's like carbon fiber, 3D printed, and they can address, attach different forms of weaponry to it, whether it's just dropping a frag, they could drop a mine out of it. I know they were talking about how they had a liquid that could basically burn through sort of a lot of cars and tanks. So the person inside would basically melt alive, which sounds horrible. But what's mind blowing to me is you could have like a $3 million Russian tank that could be destroyed by a $300 drone, which is just crazy how fast the war changes. I think they're kind of the world leaders in budget drone technology. They didn't, obviously don't have the budget

• 40:30Speaker 01

  for these crazy elaborate, uh, massive drones. I did see some higher budget, bigger drones over there, but for the most part, those FPV drones is really how most of the battles are fought. And you're seeing the, um, you're seeing the cameras on them. So you can see like basically kamikaze drone will chase someone down and they have that footage. And that's what the police chief said to me when he, he gifted me one of the drones they used. And he basically said, he's like artillery is scary, but a drone will follow you into a building. It's like kind of a haunting thing to think about. Like they'll see the drone, they'll hear the drone. They might try to shoot it down or they might try to

• 41:09Speaker 01

  run. But if it's a kamikaze one, those guys are pretty good at flying them. It's gonna chase the soldiers down. A lot of soldiers like. Pretending to be dead, it's really crazy. Some of the footage out there of those FPV drones.

• 41:24Lex Fridman?

  So it's a terrifying tool of war and tool of psychological war and used by both sides increasingly.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, both sides use it. I remember I was with Roman in Marseille and he had his break period. He was allowed to leave the country because he's volunteered, he basically volunteered to join the army. Ukrainian men can't really leave Ukraine right now. But Roman, I was in Marseille and this was a surreal experience for him. We went to the beach and there were some tourists there flying a drone and you just saw his instinctual reaction to that drone sound in the sky. Flashback to that.

• 41:58Lex Fridman?

  Currently, they're all, as far as I know, all human controlled, so FPV. But to me, increasingly terrifying notion is of them becoming autonomous. There's the best way to defend against a drone that's FPV controlled is for AI to be controlling that drone. Just have swarms of drones that are $500 controlled by AI systems. And that's a terrifying possibility that the future of warfare is essentially swarms of drones on both sides. And then maybe swarms of drones, say, between US and China over Taiwan.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  That would be wild because I mean, they do those crazy drone light shows where they do those performances with the lights and stuff. So they're already pretty sophisticated with sort of pre-programming.

• 42:43Lex Fridman?

  Those are pre-programmed, so the low-level control, flight control of those is done autonomously, but there's a interface between the choreography that's hardcoded in. But adding increasing levels of intelligence to a drone where you can detect another drone, follow it and defend yourself. Like in terms of the military on both sides of the Ukraine war, that's a, that's a technology that's like the most wanted technology is drone defense. Like how are you defending those drones on both sides? And anybody that comes up with an autonomous drone technology is going to help whichever side uses that technology to gain a military advantage. And so there's a huge incentive to build that technology.

• 43:23Lex Fridman?

  But then, of course, once both sides start using that technology, then there's swarms of autonomous drones who don't give a shit about humans, just killing everything in sight on both sides. And that's terrifying. There's civilian deaths. That are possible, they are terrifying, especially when you look 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, it's surreal. Like when we went to Kursk, and he was like, uh, the entire sky is just full of, full of drones. At any given time, they could decide to come and attack. So like just the, they could just sit there forever, waiting, waiting for you to come out of that building. They'll wait a long time when someone goes and hides inside, or potentially if it's open window, fly straight through the open window to get it, to get people.

• 44:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So you're not even safe indoors.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's nowhere to hide and they can wait for a very, very long time.

• 44:15Lex Fridman?

  And as far as I know, even politicians, like you're in danger everywhere in Ukraine. So if you, if you want to do a public speaking thing and doing outside, you're in danger because it's very difficult to detect those drones. It could be anywhere. So it's a terrifying life where you don't know if you're safe at any moment, anywhere in Ukraine.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Well, sure. I mean, it's crazy with what happened to Trump. I thought maybe the next attack on a public figure might come in the form of drone technology, some sort of, something along those lines. I wonder how they protect against that here.

• 44:49Lex Fridman?

  If that happens, just imagine the insanity that would ensue. Cause we understand the idea of a gunman with a rifle, shooting somebody. But just like a drone, just imagine the conspiracy theories, who controlled that drone?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Where'd it come from? Yeah.

• 45:06Lex Fridman?

  And now everybody, I mean, that will just cause chaos.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  And the range is ever increasing. One of the battalions in Ukraine, cause those FPV drones have short range, pretty short range. But they were able to attach it to one of the larger drones with a signal booster. So they could potentially go up to 30, 40 kilometers into the distance. So the drone that hits you could be flown by someone so far away from you. And if they did that domestically, that would be very frightening to think of the sphere of where it could have come from.

• 45:37Lex Fridman?

  Do they, when you've talked to the soldiers there, did they have a hope or a vision how the war will end?

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Not really. It just, I guess it just seems to everyone that it's sort of, there's going to be no middle ground.

• 45:52Lex Fridman?

  When I was there, there's a kind of optimism that they would be victorious, like definitively. And, uh, so is there still that optimism and also?

• 46:05Lex Fridman?

  Are they ready for prolonged war?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it would be a soldier by soldier basis. I know like um each of them had a different perspective. I remember I would ask him about like in terms of US politics and their fears because the first year I went there, US hadn't agreed to resupply weapons. So it was a very different feeling in the air there of concern over what was going to happen, but they still remained quite optimistic that no matter who got in, they felt would do the right thing. But in terms of prolonged war, most people think it's going to go for a very long time, like the children's hospital that just was bombed in Kyiv. Anytime there's a moment like that, that reignites everything. And I think it happens on both sides. So I know

• 46:52Speaker 01

  that there was an attack in Crimea. It was an attack on a beach, I guess. And I don't know if that attack on the hospital was retribution for that, but that's sort of the energy that is felt like they might have battle fatigue. But when something happens to civilians, especially kids on your side, kind of reinvigorates the energy to fight for as long as necessary. And in terms of a case by case basis, one of my friends, Dimitri, over there who trains jiu jitsu, owns a gym, he was very passionate about it just because of the history. Like he brought out documents of his grandfather being executed by the USSR. So I know that when the war started, he basically,

• 47:36Speaker 01

  he took a bicycle helmet and his AK-47 and went out into the streets. And he's like, I'd rather be dead than live under Russian rule again. So I mean, very case by case basis, sort of personal history for them, I think.

• 47:51Lex Fridman?

  Did they comment on US politics, whether they hope for Trump or for, in that situation, Biden now Harris to win the presidential election?

• 48:02Speaker 01

  I think they, most of the guys tried to keep it pretty positive. You know what I mean? Like, some people did think that maybe if Trump was elected, he wouldn't continue to fund it, but. They really try to stay optimistic. Most of the people I spoke to really tried to remain optimistic that they would be protected if if it comes down to it like, but obviously there was a nine month period where they weren't refunded. So as that stretched, obviously they're refunded now, but it takes a lot of time to get that equipment back to the points at which they need it. So I mean, if ammunition had ran out, Patriot Defense System had ran out, really, really sort of scary prospect there. I don't know what's all, I guess no one knows what's gonna happen there, but.

• 48:45Lex Fridman?

  Did you lie to people and say you were close to the president so they can be nice to you, like so they can convince you to continue the funding?

• 48:51Speaker 01

  I'm an Australian diplomat.

• 48:53Lex Fridman?

  Diplomat. That could be a nice way in.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would have been a nice side of the top. Luckily, luckily for me, most of the places I travel to, jujitsu gives me access to so many different individuals. It's super bizarre, like oligarchs, royalty, I guess tech wizards. It's just this, it's a strange group of people, like a cult around the world of just, I get strange access just for being good at wrestling, wrestling dudes.

• 49:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, martial arts, there's a, there's like a code and there's a respect, there means your respect, even if you don't know anything about the other person, if you both have done martial arts. I mean, there's similar things with judo, with jujitsu, with grappling, all that. I don't know what that is.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  It's like an inner circle. That's kind of like, cause this film project we're working on is kind of focused on that is because of the history I have in jujitsu and traveling and doing seminars and just getting access to strange experiences from the local, strange in a positive way and participating in those experiences. That's what I sort of wanted to focus this travel show on was the community of jujitsu people around the world kind of really has no sort of ethnic background, religious background, even level of wealth. Like it's, as cheesy as it sounds, kind of a good equalizer on the mats and that community camaraderie sort of knows no limits there.

• 50:15Lex Fridman?

  Including like mats, the shittiest mats and some. Small town in the middle of nowhere.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  100% even like Sheikh Tanun who started ADCC. I know when he went to the US and he studied there, he would train at a very simple gym. He wouldn't declare who he was. Like I, I watched a documentary produced about sort of the story of Sheikh Tanun and how he studied in America, basically in anonymity. The people at his gym didn't know who he was in his country and he trained there. He trained with them for years, cleaned the mats like anyone else. And then they didn't realize who he was until he said, hey, I want to invite you to my country. But he actually meant basically his royalty come. And then they realized who this guy was and the significance of him.

• 51:03Lex Fridman?

  That's gangster. That's great. One of the things I love about no geek jiu jitsu is like you don't see rank. So on a small scale, there's no hierarchy. That's that emerges when you have the different color belts. Everybody's kind of the same. It's nice.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  You get to like see the skill.

• 51:18Lex Fridman?

  The skill speaks, but there's just like a mutual respect and whatever. You can quickly find out who. I actually wonder if I would be able to figure out the rank of a person. You think you can, can you usually figure out how long a person's been doing jiu jitsu?

• 51:31Speaker 01

  I like to think with some of the aggressive clothing choices I've made and sold in the sport, that that should be a beacon, that that person

• 51:38Lex Fridman?

  Is a blue belt.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Has hopefully some talent because they're fearlessly provoking the other party there.

• 51:44Lex Fridman?

  Oh, it's, it's like in the jungle. Whenever there's like a insect that's red, that is like really flamboyant looking, that means they're dangerous.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It's a target. Yeah. The, yeah, being flamboyant. If you come on the mats with something pink, pink gi or something, people are circling in fast, especially in Eastern Europe.

• 52:03Lex Fridman?

  Okay. So, uh, yeah, you mentioned the project. Can you talk about that? I saw there's a preview that you showed Craig Jones going walkabout.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Going walkabout. Yeah.

• 52:14Lex Fridman?

  And, uh, so you showed a preview in Indonesia where you're both kind of celebrating and maybe poking a bit of fun at Hex and Gracie.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Hex and Gracie. Yes. I like to, to, uh, match looks from time to time in an homage.

• 52:29Lex Fridman?

  You look sexy.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  It's comfortable. I actually enjoy it.

• 52:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you should keep it.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Oh, only wear this now.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Well, where's for the Gabby match? I mean, yeah, we're trying to do a documentary series because the way I see it is I want to grow the sport of jiu jitsu. And every, this sounds funny to say now because I'm doing a tournament, but everyone tries to do it through competition. But as we know, most jiu jitsu gyms we visit, a very small percentage of people compete, let alone compete regularly. You'll go to gyms that could be brown or black belts that don't know many of the big name competitors. So my thoughts were, we're never going to grow this sport by competition. We're going to grow it by appealing to the large majority of people that do it, which are just people that enjoy it for the benefits it provides to them, whether health or psychological.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  And obviously, many people inspired by Anthony Bourdain. Basically, he was looking at what he did with food by showing the very interesting characters in the food culture, the food industries, especially with street food, and building around that. So I'm trying to look at jiu jitsu like a giant cult. Scientology isn't starting with Planet Zeno, it's starting with John Travolta and Tom Cruise. So if we can create a documentary travel series highlighting the diverse, interesting people that participate in the sport, in that sense, I hope we can grow up. But also doing some charity work along the way. Like as, we'll release the Indonesia Bali episode pretty soon. But as an Australian, I do do a lot of damage culturally around the world, so I'd like to

• 54:05Speaker 01

  do some good as well. We've, we've done a lot of damage to Bali, so give back to local communities. We have an Australian there that runs an academy, Academy Christos. He's one of the guys we're donating a portion of the ticket sales to from our event. But he basically went straight into a Balinese slum, started teaching jiu jitsu on a mat under a tree, and then slowly through donations, has built a gym. And his real focus is not just taking money from people and gifting it to them to help the community, but to teach them skills. So he'll take a lot of the disadvantaged kids and he'll teach them things like photo editing so they can get that work from the internet, really. Incredible guy.

• 54:47Lex Fridman?

  It's good to know that you see yourself as the John Travolta of jiu jitsu.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Many masseuses have accused me of the same thing, unfortunately. All lies.

• 54:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of similarities between the two of you. So you mentioned Anthony Bourdain.

• 55:03Lex Fridman?

  What do you like about the guy? What do you find inspiring and instructive about the way he was able to, as you said, scratch beneath the surface of a place?

• 55:12Speaker 01

  I just felt like he's very authentic, wasn't afraid. Like, this is something I had trouble with when we first started doing the travel show. It's easy to do a travel show if you only say positive things about a place.

• 55:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  You know? But he would find a very creative way to show what's good and bad, a very honest reflection of the place. So that's something I would strive to do. However, in some places, it's very difficult. You know what I mean? Like, for example, Kazakhstan. If I were to say something negative about Kazakhstan, they'd be like, who's this foreign idiot talking about our culture? And I think that was what was incredible about Baudin is he could talk about both the good and bad of places, and he would do it in such a way that it was tasteful and was respected by the locals.

• 55:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that's actually a skill that you're incredibly good at. You make fun of a lot of people, but there's something,

• 56:01Lex Fridman?

  maybe there's an underlying respect, maybe it's the accent, maybe, I don't know what it is. There's a love underneath your trolling.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  I like to think so. Hopefully, yeah. Gabby Garcia, there's a deep, a deep passion and love underneath the trolling.

• 56:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Speaking of which, let's talk about CGI. You're putting on the CGI tournament. It's in about a week, same weekend as ADCC. Three million dollar budget, two divisions, two super fights. Winner of each division gets one million dollars. Everyone gets $10,000. How do you even say that? Plus one.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  10,000 plus one, yeah.

• 56:42Lex Fridman?

  Plus one.

• 56:44Lex Fridman?

  Just to compete. So it's August 16th and 17th. Everybody should get tickets. Same weekend as ADCC, which is August 17th. Okay, so what's the mission of what you're doing there?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  The mission has always been, first and foremost, increase athlete pay. So ADCC has invested a ton into the sport. Obviously, I mentioned Sheikh Tonu. Sheikh Tonu's done so much for the sport of grappling, particularly nogi grappling. So he's grown it. He has funded this for a very, very long time. Well, we've kind of hit a point since 2017 where the audience, the crowd watching live and at home behind a paywall has grown considerably. We had things like Meta Morris, we had the Eddie Bravo Invitational, Polaris, all these sort of professional events that have also contributed to growing the sport. And obviously, people like Gordon Ryan have

• 57:40Speaker 01

  definitely increased the popularity of the sport. But the payment for ADCC has never gone up, despite, again, the growth of it. So what I did, a lot of fans were asking me earlier in the year, they said, Craig, you're going to do ADCC. And I said, that is a big commitment of time, energy, expenses on steroids to get my body ready for a tournament that I'll probably lose. And if I lose on day one, I make $0. If I lose on, if I lose in the final, which I have done a couple of times, I only get $6,000. I think third place is $3,000, fourth place is $1,000. So if you make day two, you get paid. But

• 58:22Speaker 01

  for me personally, seeing ADCC 2022, you're looking out to a sold out crowd of like 10,000 people. It's on Flow Grappling, which you know, paid quite a bit of money for the streaming rights. I can't comment on what that number would be. And then you go home, despite having put in all that effort with only 6,000, and they're basically, the argument is you're paid in exposure. But again, there's many ways to expose yourself. You know what I mean? That's just one of the platforms to do so. Yeah. My problem was that they announced that they were going to go from Thomas and Mack to T-Mobile, which is a jump in quality of stadium, but not a significant jump in sort

• 59:04Speaker 01

  of seating. So we've gone from like 11,000 seat arena to I think a 15, 16,000 seat arena. And I knew that Flo Grafton would have had to pay more money because now the sport's growing so much. And I can personally kind of track the growth of the sport through selling instructional DVDs, instructional online products, because that keeps growing. And we're targeting those white and blue belts vulnerable to internet marketing.

• 59:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  And that audience continues to grow. And those will be the people that largely watch ADCC events like this. So I simply said, in response to a lot of fans asking me, why are you going to do ADCC? And I just simply made a video saying, no, probably not, probably not. It'd be nice to make some more money. And then I listed a bunch of sports, such as Cock Bar, that you get paid more to win Cock Bar. In the villages of Kazakhstan, the payment structure is higher. And I received a very aggressive response, not from any of Shake Tanun's people, but from basically who runs the event today. One of those guys amongst giving me death threats said, hey, T-Mobile costs $2 million. You

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  don't know what you're talking about in terms of business and production. And he's probably right. But to me, $2 million is a waste of money for a jiu-jitsu event. I don't think we're at that level yet. Like, that's where the UFC host events, you know, $2 million. That's an expensive, expensive venue. So we argued a bit on the internet. And he said, hey, if you don't like it, why don't you go get $2 million and put on your own tournament? And I said, I might just do that. And one of my anonymous friends kindly donated a $3 million budget. And I actually messaged him before the show to say, hey, we won't reveal your identity. Because obviously, anyone that has money is going to get asked for more money, or asked for money from others. So he wants to remain anonymous. But he

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  basically just said to enjoy the trolling aspect of it, and also contribute to the sport of jiu-jitsu.

• 1:01:03Lex Fridman?

  Well, it's good to know that the anonymous funder appreciates you for who you are, Craig Jones.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  He sees my true identity, and he wants to provoke. It's trolling for a good cause.

• 1:01:14Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  But basically, we were able to find Thomas and Mack Event Center, which was their original venue. And it just so happened to be available that same weekend, which we're very happy about. So we booked that out. We decided to, ADCC pays 10,000 to the winner. We were like, you know what? We'll pay $10,000 plus one to show up. So to show up in our event, you're going to get paid more than to win ADCC. And not only that, we're going to broadcast it for free. So on Meta, X and YouTube, you'll be able to watch this event for free. That's amazing. It's very considerate to the Flow grappling streaming platform, I believe, to have also a free alternative on the same weekend.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  And the brilliance of this whole thing is I was largely criticized for not knowing anything about business. But the people criticizing me decided to host a tournament at 15,000 seat arena. They decided to take sponsors. They decided to use a streaming platform which sells subscriptions based on the athletes that would enter it, but not give any of the talent, the athletes a contract, which gave me this beautiful position to basically say, hey, what do you prefer? The prestige of an ADCC gold medal or money? And that's the fuse so far. And we put that, we put that out into the world. I didn't chase too many athletes down. Obviously, a lot of these guys really need money.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  So you throw a million dollars out there, people are jumping on board. So initially, we started getting, we got two local guys here in Austin, the Tacker brothers, they jumped in first. And they're great kids. They really legitimized the whole thing because if we pick certain athletes, like just B team guys straight away, it's already looking a bit dodgy. But we've got some legitimate athletes, especially the under 80 kilo divisions, full of minus two or three guys. That's the best people in the world in that weight division. And as we started to grow our roster here, what happened? I'm going to say this allegedly for legal reasons is that the first move ADCC did.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Was they matched the female pay to the men's pay. So the women always traditionally got paid less, I think $6,000 for first place. As soon as we had Fion Davies, the reigning champion, come across to do a super fight with us, bang, ADCC raised the prize money of the women's division to equal the men's. So me being a feminist activist throughout many of my years on this earth, immediately got women's pay raised in the sport of jiu jitsu equalized, basically, which went counter to everything the promoter had said because he said it was out of his control to raise money. He said only the, only the ADCC, I guess, coming directly from the Sheikh or the Sheikh's sort of guys could raise the

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  prize money. He got it raised. And then what happened was, once we started getting some of these big names here, so some of the best guys from ADCC would be in this division. We've got a bunch of champions or medalists or really the top betting favorites for their divisions there. They started, again, I can't emphasize this enough, allegedly paying show money, which has never historically been done before, to keep athletes in their show.

• 1:04:27Lex Fridman?

  So you're saying allegedly there were some under the table payments by ADCC. Do you have secret documents proving this?

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  I do have the documents. No, some of the guys obviously told me, you know how it is, you slap a billion dollars on the table, it looks great. That was me proving I had the money, which wasn't even my money to begin with. But it was basically me saying, hey, the money's real. Not, I don't know why, but strangely, a lot of people don't believe me when I'm telling the truth.

• 1:04:50Lex Fridman?

  I don't know why they wouldn't.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  But what logically happens is they're like, oh, look at how much money he has. We're going to give, like, give us more show money. So they're negotiating with me. There was one particular Brazilian businessman, manager, I won't say his name, but he looks like the thing from Fantastic Four. And he was a manager for some of these athletes. And he would take a massive 20% cut. So what he, and I've got to, I've got to pay respect to this, uh, respect to this because it actually caused trauma to the other team as well. But he would, uh, I would invite an athlete to CJI. He would go to the other organization and he would say to them, hey, what sort of deal could you give me to keep this guy? You want to keep him in your event?

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  And he would use CJI to leverage more show money for his guys, of which he gets to grease the wheels with 20% for himself. However, at CJI, everyone gets $10,001 across the board and a million dollars prize money. So there's no room for really negotiation for the tournament aspect of us. So he has a vested interest in putting his guys in ADCC because he can negotiate show money and he can basically take 20% of that for himself. But really, for the sport of grappling, this is incredible across the board because by us stealing, or at least borrowing a bunch of athletes from ADCC, ADCC had to fill their divisions. So they filled their divisions with many other competitors that

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  wouldn't have ordinarily had the chance to do ADCC. And really, although we've scheduled it the same weekend, ours is actually Friday, Saturday, ADCC being Saturday, Sunday, our day starts pretty late. So we start 5pm Saturday. So really, ultimately, it was a big marketing ploy to go head to head, pretending like we're making the fans choose, but the fans will be able to watch both events. You'll be able to go all day Friday. For us, you'll sadly miss the ADCC Hall of Fame ceremony where you'll see many of great speakers, public speakers, philosophers, tell their stories about hardship. Just like at the end of any jujitsu seminar, or beginning, if you're blessed like that, you might have a 45-minute

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  monologue about how they're more knowledgeable than doctors, lawyers, classic black belt technique, but you will miss that. With great metaphors about lions and... About lions, yes. About being a humble lion, most importantly. Humility is important. You can watch all that Friday, you could watch most of ADCC Saturday, and then Saturday night in Las Vegas, I'll be doing what many men have done before, and that is wrestling a giant woman.

• 1:07:32Lex Fridman?

  Can you speak to that? How are you preparing for this moment of violence on a Saturday night with Gabby Garcia?

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  So Gabby Garcia is the legend of sort of women's grappling. I think she's won more than anyone else. So between me and her, we would at least have 15 to 20 world championships, I'd imagine.

• 1:07:56Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  She's huge. I say that in an endearing way. She might be six foot four, six foot three. And her weight varies depending on what time of the day it is between 220 and 275 pounds. But she's going to be coming in quite big and strong. Me, I am about 179 pounds right now and a five foot 11. So I've got a significant size disadvantage. She has the credentials, but we're gonna, we're gonna scrap it out, scrap it out and see who's best, the greatest women's competitor of all time, or a guy that's never won anything.

• 1:08:33Lex Fridman?

  Has it added some complexity to the picture that, you know, there's some sexual tension in the room whenever you, the two of you are together?

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Lex Fridman?

  Maybe I'm being romantic, but it seems like there's, you've slowly started to fall in love with each other.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  It's been three years of seduction. It's been a long time.

• 1:08:49Lex Fridman?

  It's inspiring for, for many young men that follow you and look up to you. Just the, the, the romantic journey that you've been on is truly inspiring.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say it's a motivational message to the guy that keeps sending DMs to a girl on Instagram for years. That maybe after three years, it could also happen for you too.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  No matter, no matter her, her height and weight, I think persistence is the key here.

• 1:09:17Lex Fridman?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  And we do have a wager on the line.

• 1:09:22Lex Fridman?

  What's the wager?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  This might be the first wager of its kind, I would hope, in combat sports history. If she wins, I'll personally give her a million dollars. If I can footlock her, we're going to collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape.

• 1:09:41Lex Fridman?

  Did she agree to this?

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  She shook on it.

• 1:09:46Lex Fridman?

  You do have an OnlyFans channel. Is that still up?

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  It's after August 7th. It's gonna be fire.

• 1:09:52Lex Fridman?

  It's gonna be on fire. Wow.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  I think that, and honestly, when we talk about Sigurian Investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament.

• 1:09:58Lex Fridman?

  It'd be that successful. That'll be the only paywalled thing about this tournament is your OnlyFans.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, I mean, it's gonna be a spiritual experience for me.

• 1:10:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Wow. Uh, okay, I'm totally distracted now. Can you talk about the ruleset?

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  So we're using the angled walls inspired by Karate Combat. Karate Combat do those angled walls.

• 1:10:23Lex Fridman?

  Those are awesome. You're calling it the alley. That's really, really interesting. So the, it's like in a pit, I guess, and the angled walls are...

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yes, so Karate Combat have a square pit. We have a rectangular alley. We like the visual of just you're in the alley with someone, you know, you come, we both know what goes on in the alley. There's only a couple of things that could go on back there.

• 1:10:44Lex Fridman?

  What's the second thing? Never mind. I got it.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  But why this is brilliant, why the angled walls are brilliant for grappling is because any grappling tournament, this goes without question, goes IBJF, ADCC. The reset is one of the most annoying aspects of the sport and one of the aspects of the sport that these, some of these sneakier guys take advantage of. There's guys out there that are brilliant at playing the edge. Open the ref will reset them or they'll shoot a takedown near the edge. And you might watch, and again, I'm picking on ADCC here, but you might watch an ADCC match where 90 seconds of a 10-minute match is the referee grabbing them, bringing them back to the center or trying to recreate something of a position that landed outside.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Not only is that sort of boring to me, it, and it sort of could be biased, you know, like, again, it's happened to be in events where like, I've, the ref's gone, stop, I've stopped, he's moved a little bit more and then there's an adjustment in the reset. I mean, it's cheating to a certain extent. It's just more of an annoyance. They bring it back. They reset it to the best of their ability in the center. The angled wall mitigates that. And it mitigates it in such a way that is a disadvantage to be pushed up against the angled wall. You're very easily taken down against the angled wall. You could use a cage like the UFC does or any sort of MMA organization. However, cage wrestling can be slow. You're obviously at the vertical

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  and it can stagnate there. Guys are very good at using split squats to really defend that position. So we, and for me personally, I don't love the cage for grappling. I'd like to differentiate it for grappling. What holds people back from using the alley or a pit-like structure is the viewing, the viewing angle. Cause if, obviously if you're one of the VIPs or you pay for expensive seat, that angled wall's above you. A cage you can see into an elevated platform sort of stage, you can see clearly into, cause yeah, cause it's basically flat, but the athletes could fall off and injure themselves. So if something happens, UFC five passes the elevated flat stage, it's kind of scary to be near the edge. You, you go, you go off,

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  you're gonna land on concrete. You might want to do that to the other guy if you that way inclined. But the, the alley, the angled wall solves all those problems. Very minimal referee interference. Again, the only thing that holds people back is the expense of building it. But again, when you're spending someone else's money, you will spare no expense in production. So we've spent a lot of money on the alley and we've really gone out of our way to create an experience that around the alley, we've elevated everything. So that the people watching will be able to see down into it. Cause that, Adam, your instinctual thought is, oh, it sounds great, but how am I gonna see in it unless I'm far up? Like you'd need like a coliseum-like

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  structure, which is basically what we've attempted to create so that you get both a perfect place to, to wrestle, to grapple in, as well as a perfect viewing angle for the fans.

• 1:13:49Lex Fridman?

  Well, I think it's an amazing idea. What about the jiu-jitsu on a slant?

• 1:13:55Lex Fridman?

  You've triangled.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:56Lex Fridman?

  Somebody on a slam. Is there like some interesting aspects about the actual detailed techniques of how to be effective using a slam?

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  I'll be honest, I competed for karate combat twice. Never once did I ever step foot into the pit. Just again, like you said before the podcast, if there's a right way of doing things, I'm probably doing the opposite.

• 1:14:15Lex Fridman?

  The wrong way. I actually no idea why you, people take advice from you, but they do.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  I'm mostly an inspirational speaker at this point.

• 1:14:24Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you and Tony Robbins are like this.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Same size at least, but in terms of the training for of, of obviously the athlete is very difficult. Some of these guys have gone out there and built their own angled walls.

• 1:14:35Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I saw that. There's a cool video of that.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  They're getting into that. That's a smart thing to do. There's a million dollars on the line. You should probably invest in that. But I also like a new surface that no one's competed on. No one's gamed it yet. No one's like, we're going to see it unfold. Like, like when UFC, when people start figuring out how to use the cage, we're going to see this unfold in front of our very eyes. How the strategies work for this. The other thing we've done too, is we're doing rounds. So qualifying rounds would be three, five minute rounds. The final would be five fives. Why I want to do that is to incentivize action. We're going to incentivize action through penalizing people. But we really want, I, I love a short burst, a break, and the guys can go hard again. I don't like a jujitsu match where

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  the guy takes the back early and he's like, oh, if I keep this position, I've won. And that's something that people that don't compete, don't realize is if you take, if you get a good position early, get up on the points. You just sit there and go, oh, let's ride this to the end. That's why I want rounds so that you might take guys back. You really incentivize to get that finish. And the way we're trying to grow the sport is to steal the MMA scoring structure, which a lot of people criticize. Cause they think it's overly complicated. They don't understand it. But to the mass audience, they understand a 10 point must understand a decision in that sense. Understand it being scored round by round. So we're trying to appeal to a broader audience here.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  But we think based on the structure, based on how hard we'll call stalling penalties, based on you wanting to finish your opponent quick. To have a better chance at a million dollars. Cause it's 10,001 to show up and a million to win. If you ain't first, you're last. There's no reward for second place. So I'm punishing the one position I've only ever been able to achieve in tournaments.

• 1:16:29Lex Fridman?

  Are you worried that because of how much money is on the line, people will play careful?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  A very generous friend of mine has provided this money. I'm like, unless you guys go out there and try to kill each other and put it all on the line, I just won't do it again. Like, I'm giving you guys a massive platform. We've turned down offers from streaming platforms that wanted to buy the rights to this event because the marketing's gone very well. We're turning down money to grow the sport. The ADCC promoter said he wanted to grow the sport. So what he did is he put it behind a paywall and he used the money from the paywall to buy a more expensive arena. I don't think that's how you grow the sport. I think you grow the sport like comedians do these days, like guys like Mark Norman will release a special for

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  free. Andrew Schultz did it first, released a special for free and it grew his audience massively. I think that's what jujitsu needs. We need an exciting show that's not behind a paywall, that'll grow the sport, grow the audience. And really, then ultimately, we can get to a level where it could be behind a paywall, but I just don't think where they are.

• 1:17:39Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I think a million dollars is a lot of money, but the opportunity here, because it's open and freely accessible by everyone, is to put on a show.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  And then you get a million every year. If this is a crazy, exciting event, the funding's gonna be so easy year after year. And the other aspect we're doing to it is, unfortunately, I'm not gonna make any money off this thing. It's a nonprofit and the money from charity.

• 1:18:04Lex Fridman?

  Except the OnlyFans, but whatever.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  That's the real cash cow. But that's the real work, too.

• 1:18:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And that's not for charity. That's for your personal bank account, the OnlyFans. Are you also?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  That'll be for the follow-up therapy, but that'll be an expensive gig for whoever takes that on board.

• 1:18:21Lex Fridman?

  Love hurts.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  That physically will, yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Take it proceeds to charity. So like, obviously, we've got the $3 million budget. We've got production expenses. We've got the team of staff to hire.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  But if we could sell this thing out, we could potentially donate a ton of money to charity. One of those charities is Tap Cancer Out. And what's great about this is Rich Byrne is a black belt from New York, who's in the banking world. He used to run an event called Kasai Grappling. He went through cancer. He basically had a very aggressive cancer. He had it treated. And now he basically has said to us that whatever we donate from the profits of the event, he's going to match dollar for dollar. And we've also had another guy who wants to remain anonymous, agree to match dollar for dollar as well. So the more ticket sales revenue we can create here, the more we can actually give back to charity. So it's really all around. It's going to be a great event.

• 1:19:20Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, Tap Cancer Out is great. And all the charities that the athletes have been selecting are great. What's been the hardest?

• 1:19:28Lex Fridman?

  You are wearing a suit, so you figured out how to do that, but.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  The tie was difficult, for sure.

• 1:19:32Lex Fridman?

  That was difficult. But you figured it out and congratulations on that. But you've never run a tournament. No.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  I've never wrestled a big woman either. Well, I have, but not in this form.

• 1:19:46Lex Fridman?

  Not in a competitive environment for OnlyFans.

• 1:19:51Lex Fridman?

  What's been the hardest aspects of actually bringing this to life?

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  The first one was people believing it was real.

• 1:19:56Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  That was quite difficult. And then communicating with the athletes. That's basically my responsibility is securing these guys, getting these guys to commit to things. They're very, it's very difficult. There's a reason a few athletes in every sport really stand out. And it's kind of professionalism, kind of the way they market themselves. And I think those two things do go hand in hand. So we're in a sport where there's enough money where a lot of these guys do have managers. I think in MMA, things would be a lot easier for the promoter because you're not talking directly to the athlete. You're talking to a guy who might, who's obviously taken a cut, but like. He's, there's a middle man. So in a situation where you're talking directly to the athlete can be

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  very difficult, can be very annoying, can be very hard to reach these guys. They can be very noncommittal. That for me has been one of the biggest challenges. The guys that I speak to that are like, I'm in. And then they're like, I'm out. I'm in like navigating this area. One other aspect is because we did this basically from idea to event will be less than three months, three and a half months. So it's like we're having to do so much in such a short period of time. Little things like of the show money we've given them, they're expected to basically secure their own flight and hotel to the event. We're cutting down on staff because that would be one of the, if I had to coordinate getting these guys flights, I would just jump

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  off a building. Like it's, it's hard enough to get them to agree to the event, let alone coordinate. Hey, what date do you want to come in? It's like herding cats. So really just the interpersonal stuff's been difficult. Obviously going up against ADCC, the legacy event has been pretty damn difficult as well. Well established, huge history. They've been selling tickets for two years. Everyone's known it's been coming for two years. That thing was largely sold out before we even announced the event. So we're going head to head with this event. So from a ticket sales perspective, very difficult.

• 1:21:55Lex Fridman?

  What's been, Reddit question, what's been the most surprising people who turned down your invite?

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, we can, we can name names. I mean, obviously, Kynan, he was a semi in semi out. His suggestion was actually to do a second and third place prize rather than a million. And I'm like, no, we want an all or nothing. It's all or nothing. Yeah. Well, that's a better spectacle, better entertainment.

• 1:22:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Probably more injuries, but it's all or nothing. Miki Galvao, the one that got away.

• 1:22:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  That's sad, but we got the Rotolos. The Rotolos, props to these kids because Cade's the reigning champion. These are two of the best guys in the sport. Allegedly were offered pretty significant show money to stay. But they hit me up and they said, hey, promise us one thing. We're on opposite sides of the brackets and we'll fight to the death in the final for the million. And we know, everyone knows that, well, we've seen them compete against each other multiple times. So that was not a surprise because I know they're good kids, but to basically turn down allegedly show money to do this event, to support the event, to me is incredible. Mika gave out, things would be more complicated there.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Like obviously Mika officially joined ADCC before he secured the Rotolos. Cade beat him in the final. Mika's personally motivated to face off against Cade. So he didn't know Cade was in our event before he agreed to ADCC. There's more to that story too, in terms of Mika doing ADCC because a bunch of the kids in his team, I think they're being flown out to do the ADCC kids event. So there's like his two teammates, well, at least one of his teammates will be doing the ADCC 66 kilo division. So his dad, his coach doesn't really want to split time between two events. That's a difficulty for athletes there. But obviously disappointing, we couldn't secure Mika.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Mika said he was about the legacy, so he wanted to be the youngest guy ever to double Grand Slam, which is basically win all the GEE events and win the ADCC that same year. My thoughts were, oh, if I was in his position, and I never was obviously a prodigy, a talent like that, is I thought he had a position to make a statement in the sport to kind of, as cheesy as it sounds, be on the right side of history, to have turned down a double Grand Slam to be in an event that supports athlete pay. Again, I don't overly criticize him, but I think in terms of your legacy and reputation,

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  to be at a point and choose to do that is much more memorable than him getting that double Grand Slam, which I'm sure he will win the ADCC 77 kilo division this year, but it'll be somewhat tarnished anyway. So I do feel bad for some of the athletes that win this year and potentially people will be like, oh yeah, but there was half the people weren't in the division. I feel bad for those guys, but at the end of the day. Most of these guys had an opportunity to be a part of an event that really there's no downside to. You'll have a chance to be paid more money than you've ever been paid in your life. You're selling tickets that are going to go to charity and it's not behind

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  a paywall. So anyone, anywhere in the world can stream this event, watch it, and there's no barrier to entry in terms of finances.

• 1:25:25Lex Fridman?

  Was there ever any chance that Gordon Ryan would enter?

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't think so.

• 1:25:32Lex Fridman?

  Is that something you tried?

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Me and Gordon don't text each other too often. I tag him on Instagram and things, but he doesn't respond.

• 1:25:39Lex Fridman?

  Tell me about your history with Nicholas Marigalli.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  My history with Nicholas Marigalli? Actually, it dates back to a time where probably he does not even remember, back when I used to wear a kimono. So I went to Abu Dhabi World Pro, I was chasing my gi dreams.

• 1:25:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  I lost in, I can't even remember, again, probably the final. No, me, I probably lost in the final against Tommy Langlack in the weight division. This was the last year they did the absolute. I went into the absolute. I made it all the way to the semis. Nicholas Marigalli destroyed me in the gi. I did hit a nice little reversal on him though. He passed my guard and I somehow reversed him from side control. That's the only part of the match I share, after which he swept me, submitted me.

• 1:26:22Lex Fridman?

  You reversed him from side control?

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Lex Fridman?

  Okay. So that could be like an instructional.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  That could, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 1:26:30Lex Fridman?

  But the right place, right time though.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  But then, years later, I left the team. Marigalli replaced me. So they brought in a more credentialed, handsome, doesn't speak as well, but they brought him in. He's my replacement. He's coming to the team. We face off at ADCC. I'm, I do a heavier division thinking, I looked at the names and I was like, that looks like an easier division. And I had two teammates at the time that were in my 88. And I was like, those guys will have to face off first round. I'll have to face one of them second round, the way they do the seeding and the structure of the bracket. So I was like, I'll do 99, I'll leave 88 for the boys. They both lost my division first round, unfortunately. So I faced off

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  against Marigalli beginning of day two. Lot of pressure because Danaher's used to corner me, used to be my coach. Now he's cornering. The Brazilians who we used to complain about as the enemy. And I'm like, what's going on over here? It's like Karate Kid stuff. I face off against Marigali. I go hard early because I think you can't defend leg locks. For the first three minutes, I'm just attacking legs, legs, legs. I ended up sweeping him, getting on top, no points before the points period. But I'm very tired, I'm very tired at this point. Marigali's big, like there's some guys that get juiced up to hit a certain weight. That's what I did to enter this division. You can't keep your gas tank. Marigali is just a big dude.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  I don't, who knows if he's on the juice or not, but he's just naturally sits around 230 pounds or even 225. When you're naturally that big, your gas tank's a bit better. Again, if you balloon yourself up on every substance possible, gas tank's surprisingly not too good. So we have a bit of a close one. Decision goes my way. Ultimately, finals next, I lose that. But that is sort of our competitive history. We were meant to have a match that had been pre-booked immediately after ADCC. So we agreed to this before ADCC. I was like, the price is right, I'm in. So I sign up for it and I'm thinking ADCC that we're going to face off soon after. Marigali chose instead to have some vacation time.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  He wanted to go on vacation, he wanted to relax, a bit of relaxation down in Brazil. So the match is scrapped. Flo hit me up and they say, can you do February? And this was about the time that Volks fought Islam in Perth. I was like, no, I can't do February because I'll be helping Volkanovski. That's going to take precedence over this match. Flo goes, you know what, we'll do, we'll announce it anyway. We'll sell those tickets anyway. We'll get the people hyped and then we'll just have you pull out. And I'm like, all right, do it, do it. I'm like, do whatever you want. That's fucking probably not a good idea, but they do that. And then people keep trying to rebook this match. But now I barely even train anymore. I'm busy being a promoter, traveling around.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  So now instead of facing him in competition again, which I would do if the price was right, they'd have to pay me very well. Two of the shows have offered me the match, but the money, terrible.

• 1:29:33Lex Fridman?

  What do you think is a number that would, uh, would convince you?

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  It would have to be, I would think, half a million dollars. Otherwise, I just can't be bothered.

• 1:29:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It has to be worth it because to put a price on a guy that takes himself as serious as Marigali, Marigali is a very serious man. He's talking about authenticity. He's talking about words he doesn't even understand. For me to give him the opportunity to live in a world where he had won the last match against me, it's hard to put a price on that. It's, you know, when people say it's not about the money, it's not about the money. It's about me waking up every day, knowing that he knows he lost to me.

• 1:30:11Lex Fridman?

  So you think you've gotten it in his head?

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:14Lex Fridman?

  How do you think you would do if you were to face him for the, for the said 500,000?

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  For the 500?

• 1:30:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  I think over five minutes, I'd beat anyone in the world.

• 1:30:24Lex Fridman?

  You still think you got it?

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  I still think I got it. Gabby about to find out, too.

• 1:30:31Lex Fridman?

  All right. So you're gonna make a statement with Gabby, like that it'll be a match, it'll be a match you remembers.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, yeah, she for sure. I think the fans will remember it as well. I'm open to, like, if we do this match, I'm taking it very serious, but we'd be open to rematches. I've always said I would have a MMA fight with her. I wouldn't be afraid to hit a big woman.

• 1:30:56Lex Fridman?

  So unlike with Marigali, if you win, you're not gonna ride off to the sunset with Gabby?

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  I'm a bit of a romantic. I think she deserves a few finishes, you know? Not one and hit the bed that night.

• 1:31:07Lex Fridman?

  So you think, you think you can, you can actually beat Nicholas Magali?

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah. I think, I mean, you could throw a riddle at him before the match. That'd fucking complicate things for him for the next hour.

• 1:31:17Lex Fridman?

  Will you and Gordon ever get along again?

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  I think so. I think we need, the origins of MDMA was couples therapy in the seventies in Houston, I believe. I believe something like that for us could resolve these underlying issues.

• 1:31:30Lex Fridman?

  You're a man of Reddit because they suggested that you should consider ketamine therapy sessions.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Just imagine a therapist sitting down with him. They, they'd be like, clear the schedule for the next couple of weeks.

• 1:31:41Lex Fridman?

  With all due respect, Greg, I can't imagine a therapist sitting down with you. That, that would be a terrifying.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  I do have a therapist, actually. They prescribe me Vyvanse. He's, he's quite confident in my.

• 1:31:52Lex Fridman?

  Is this Madame Mabali or what did you?

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  It's a Russian, Russian website.

• 1:31:58Lex Fridman?

  It's the old Sean Connery thing. It's not a therapist. It's just something that's spelled the same.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Me and Gordon, a debate of some thought would be awesome.

• 1:32:07Lex Fridman?

  Like a political debate?

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, me representing Kamala Harris and him representing Donald Trump.

• 1:32:14Lex Fridman?

  So intellectual sparring.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  An intellectual battle, a battle of wits.

• 1:32:18Lex Fridman?

  Can you just speak to your trolling?

• 1:32:22Lex Fridman?

  Is there like underneath it all, is there just a respect, the human beings you go after?

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  For sure. They have to be worthy of being attacked. You know what I mean? Like if someone that's the thing. It's like you want a worthy adversary, not in a sense of I don't want to battle someone that has better banter than me because I'm gonna lose, but I want to battle someone with a profile large enough that it doesn't look like you're just.

• 1:32:48Lex Fridman?

  Who do you think is the biggest troll or shit talker in martial arts?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Panada Laranja.

• 1:32:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, well, you can't, you can't even put him in the, he's another other class of human being.

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  He's overqualified.

• 1:33:02Lex Fridman?

  Chael Sonnen comes to mind.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Chael's good.

• 1:33:05Lex Fridman?

  You versus Chael, who's a better shit talker? If you look at the entirety of the career.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Chael is better. I mean, I think if you can shit talk in MMA, because there's far worse consequences for you. If you're still willing to do it when really violent things can happen to you. I mean, I'm getting death threats, but like he, he has a certainty of violence against his opponents in MMA.

• 1:33:28Lex Fridman?

  So on Reddit, somebody said, you are a coral belt level troll and just happened to be good at jujitsu. So what did it take for you to rise to the ranks of trolling from white belt to, to black belt, to coral belt? What's your journey? We're talking shit.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  That's a good question. Hey, I think it would have happened after I moved to America. Because in Australia, like we just on a daily basis, say some of the worst things you could ever imagine.

• 1:33:55Lex Fridman?

  Like in private life?

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, we're just trying to ruin each other's day. In a way that's so blasé, you're going back and forth and the guy that actually gets upset and says some real shit, that's your victory. You know what I mean? Like you're like, oh, we got you. You're actually, that actually bothers you. All right. We'll take that as a victory.

• 1:34:14Lex Fridman?

  Right. So when you come to America and everybody takes themselves a little too seriously, those are just a bunch of. Victims you can take advantage of.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  An Australian entering American banter is like Neo, fuck getting his matrix skills. You're just like, whoa, I see everything coming.

• 1:34:31Lex Fridman?

  Do you ever look in the mirror and like regret how hard you went in the paint? At somebody?

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't think so.

• 1:34:40Lex Fridman?

  You see, you're proud of yourself?

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  I think what I offer is some balance. It's like I'm bringing some justice. Ultimately, it'll probably come back in spades to me.

• 1:34:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. I don't know. As a fan of yours, as a fan of Gordon's also, but as a fan of yours, I um, I see the love behind it. I don't know. It's always, it seems always just fun. The shit talking seems fun.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  I wish you'd buy it back. It does. It doesn't buy it back anymore though.

• 1:35:06Lex Fridman?

  What's your relationship like with Mo, the organizer of ADCC?

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  I mean, it's been a love hate relationship.

• 1:35:13Lex Fridman?

  Like with Gabby?

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  So like any good relationship, if you don't get blocked at the end of it, were you really in love to begin with?

• 1:35:21Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  That's my thoughts anyway. But so in terms of my friendship with Mo, me and Mo were really close friends for a long time. We'd talk a lot. He was instrumental in us moving Dana Herdes squad to Puerto Rico. He lives in Puerto Rico, spends most of his time in Puerto Rico.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  I've spent time with him in Florida, California. But in terms of our relationship, I'm trying to think of an exact time where it went south. But I guess in my, him being the ADCC organizer, in my attack of athlete compensation was taken personally, which is obviously gonna ruin whatever friendship you had.

• 1:36:09Lex Fridman?

  And that started around the time you were thinking about CGI.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  I mean, to be honest. CJI was a result of the response of my discussion of athlete compensation. So me and Mo had been close friends, even after the Danaher team broke up. We were still close friends for quite a while after that. But it does complicate things when someone is, for all intensive purposes, he as an ADCC competitor, and he runs ADCC, the event, he's in control of it now. He is your boss. So that does complicate our friendship.

• 1:36:47Lex Fridman?

  Have you had a conversation since you announced CJI?

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  Have we had a conversation?

• 1:36:53Lex Fridman?

  When did you get blocked?

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  I honestly didn't get blocked, I was just joking. Nah, honestly, we had a disagreement about athlete compensation. I said, let's do a podcast and talk about it because I'm a big fan of transparency. If you think I'm an idiot for thinking athletes should get paid more, tell me it. Show, show it to me. And I've made public statements, other people have asked why we don't get paid more money. You can both tell me and the world at the same time, the grappling world at the same time, but was not interested in doing a podcast. Again, maybe he thought I was going to hit him with some gotcha questions or something. But really, at the end of the day, I personally believe you've got nothing to hide.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  If you are confident in the business decisions you've made, then there's no gotcha moment that I could actually do. I could easily, I would have done the podcast if I looked like a complete idiot, would have released it anyway, because it would be a good message to where we are in the sport. But again, considering what I know about Thomas and Max Price, which I believe we're paying $200,000 for, and T-Mobile's $2 million. How do you justify no increase in athlete pay while we have a 1.8 million increase in venue cost?

• 1:38:08Lex Fridman?

  So you're saying there, there could potentially be poor business decisions, poor allocation of money that could be reallocated better to support the athletes?

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  I've never once thought this was some organization where Mo's like stealing money for himself. I'm just saying that. And again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So he might fully think that what he's doing is gonna grow the sport. I'm going about it in a completely different way. I don't think we need T-Mobile. I don't think we need a behind a paywall. I think we need cheap venue, still maintain good quality production, release it for free. If you want something to grow, present it for free.

• 1:38:51Lex Fridman?

  Is there a future where the two of you talk?

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. He keeps insisting on talking face to face. I don't have a problem with that, but my argument is this is a public feud. The public, like this is, this is a, we're having a disagreement. Let's settle the disagreement in a way that answers the question to the fans. Because if one of us is a complete idiot, then I believe the world of people following this story are entitled to know which one of us is an idiot.

• 1:39:22Lex Fridman?

  If you talk to him, would you be good faith? Like, would you uh turn off the, or turn the troll down from 11 to like a 3?

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even think I'd need a troll. I might just say, hey, why, like, like, show us the books. You know what I mean? Like, honestly, when our event's done, we're gonna be pretty transparent. Obviously, we are ran as a nonprofit. We're gonna be pretty transparent about everything. And I mean, obviously, ultimately, all the views we get, when Flow Grap, when an event's on Flow Grappling or Fight Pass or any other streaming provider, unless it's a pay-per-view, you're not gonna know how many people watched. So that's one aspect of what we're doing is, we're gonna have a visual sort of guide to how many people are fans of grappling.

• 1:40:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, transparency in all of its forms. That's what bothers me about the ILC with the Olympics. Is that there's this organization that puts on an incredible event, but there's it's completely opaque. It's not transparent and the athletes don't get paid almost at all. So it's usually from sponsorships and they they sell distribution, broadcast distribution. And so like, it's mostly paywalled after after the fact. It's very, unless you're a super famous athlete or a famous event, it's hard to watch. I don't know the the early rounds of the weightlifting or the judo or the all of the competitions where most of those athletes get paid almost nothing and they've dedicated their whole life. Like

• 1:40:53Lex Fridman?

  they've sacrificed everything to be there and we don't get to watch them openly. You can't, in many cases, you can't even pay for it. With with I O C, I've got to experience this because I'll have like podcast conversations with like judoka, for example, and I put like a little clip in a podcast and the Olympics channel takes it down immediately. So they have all the videos uploaded private, they're private.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  Oh, to flag the copyright.

• 1:41:21Lex Fridman?

  They just flag the copyright automatically. From the private videos they could release, they could release somewhere, even if it's paywalled, which I'm against, but paywall it, but make it super easy accessible. So the flow grappling model is still okay. I'm against it. But if you do a really good job of it, okay, I can kind of understand a membership fee, but like it should be super easy to use. But in the case of the Olympics, first of all, in the case of the Olympics, the whole point of the Olympics is for it to be accessible to everybody. So paywalling goes against the spirit of the Olympic Games. And I will say the same is probably true for many sports like grappling, especially for major events like A D C C, that I feel like that should be openly accessible to

• 1:42:02Lex Fridman?

  everybody, like on every platform. But you, what was the decision like for you to to make it accessible on YouTube and X and?

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, just because basically it's going to grow the sport. You know what I mean? Like it's if you have to subscribe to a platform to watch something you have a mild interest in, a mild curiosity in, there's a financial barrier there. So I want to open it up because again, we have. An investor who's contributing and is happy for it to be spent this way, happy for us not to be held hostage by these sort of streaming providers. And really, like, again, I'm not making accusations he's flow grappling a UFC five pass. They are making the right business decision by not providing streamer numbers,

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  because that's leverage that those people can use against the streaming provider. But for me, as an individual athlete that really wants to understand the metrics of how many people actually watch this sport, to leverage that in my own sponsorship negotiations, then if I'm in a position to have this out free and also give every athlete involved the same metrics and information, like you will literally be able to see the spikes when you compete. And you'll be able to take that and present it for opportunities for sponsorships, for businesses to say, look, look how many views this got. I was one of the most viewed moments of this event. So I want to put the power back in the athlete and take it away from the host.

• 1:43:37Lex Fridman?

  And it creates a lot of incentive for the athlete to make it exciting.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is your time. It might never happen again. I fully intend to run this every year. That's the goal. But again, it might never happen again.

• 1:43:50Lex Fridman?

  Is there a possible future where the 2026 ADCC is run by Craig Jones?

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Could I take over ADCC? I think from an ADCC perspective, it would make a lot of sense. I think it would make a lot of sense to wait to see if this event turns into Fire Festival first, before you commit to something like that. But I think a more modern approach to the promotion of the event. Again, I keep going back to the comedians. You know what I mean? If you're, if you want to grow your brand, whatever that may be, provide content for free and you can pay Waller. Eventually you can grow the audience, create the audience free. You know, I think the, again, if your goal is to create a huge sport here, then it's like, if we're already a niche sport

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  and competition aspect of that, is it even smaller niche? Then we need to grow that for providing this content for free.

• 1:44:47Lex Fridman?

  Well, having just chatted with Elon Musk, who fundamentally believes that the most entertaining outcome is the most likely, that to me, if the universe has a sense of humor. You would certainly, Craig Jones would certainly be running ADCC, which would be, I mean, it would just be like beautifully hilarious.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  It would be a poetic

• 1:45:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  ending. It'd be an underdog story from a man that could never win the event to running the event on behalf of the Sheikh Tonin.

• 1:45:19Lex Fridman?

  Uh, so I saw B team videos of the CJI camp, people training super hard. So you aside, who don't seem to do things in a standard way.

• 1:45:31Lex Fridman?

  What does it take to sort of, uh, put yourself in a peak shape, peak performance for, for a huge event like the CJI or the ADCC?

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  I mean, psychologically, it's really, really brutal. Like for me, anytime I'm leading up to any event of any meaningful significance, it's, it's horrible on a psychological level because you're always thinking about, are you training enough? Are you doing enough? If you feel any signs of sickness, injury, the stress levels increase, your sleep quality decreases. It's all those little subtle things that are so hard to mitigate. So like, whether you feel like you're training hard enough, you're overtraining, those to me are the most difficult aspects. And I think really those are an individual thing and that's really something where a coach can provide.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  What he thinks to you is the right amount of work, you know? And I think that's different for different people. I think Nicky Rod could do eight hours a day. You know what I mean? I think Nicky Ryan, eight minutes.

• 1:46:32Lex Fridman?

  I saw a video of Nicky Ryan, like with a trash can throwing up.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:46:36Lex Fridman?

  And, and the top comment is like, that's him doing the warm up.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  That is satisfying to watch.

• 1:46:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. But yeah, so you're supposed to train hard enough to where you have this confidence that you're prepared.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and it's an impossible thing to grasp. It's like, um, some of the best performances I've had, I've been called up last minute, or I've been sick, or my camp's been horrible. And for me personally, I've gone in there and thought, oh, relaxed, almost like, oh, well, you know, like you got called up a week ago. You're injured, you miss four weeks of your camp and I went in there super relaxed and accepting of the result and performed much better. Sometimes when I know three months out, I've got an event coming up and that event only happens every two years. It just, the stress of that alone, like I personally, on an individual level, more of a, I'd rather

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  wing it. I'd rather be in the stands and just roll down. Like Gunnar Nelson, I remember he had a brilliant performance in an ADCC absolute and he was out drinking the night before. He had no idea he was competing the next day. He was in the stands eating ice cream and they called his name out for the absolute and he went out there and I believe he got bronze. I believe he beat Jeff Munson. So it's like, it's different for different people. Obviously you don't want that to be the standard. You've got to be putting in the work at all times. But even now, in my crazy travel schedule, where I don't train anywhere near like I used to, as long as your game is technical and as long as your body's in good condition, I believe you can still train well against

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  world-class guys. You might not be able to do an hour straight, but if you're technique orientated, you're just losing fitness.

• 1:48:25Lex Fridman?

  So is it possible to out-cardio Craig Jones? Like, is your game fundamentally a technique-based game?

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure. Yeah. I've never wanted to win anything bad enough to train properly for it.

• 1:48:36Lex Fridman?

  Right. But isn't that the secret to your success? Being lazy?

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  I think so. I think that's the, can I, can I, the only logical explanation, you know? And I also use it as mind games too. Like, I, again, no one knows whether what I'm saying is true or not.

• 1:48:50Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  And I'm not saying this story to say anything bad about my opponent at the time, but I booked two matches in two consecutive weekends and I'd been traveling. I think I just got back from.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  One of my trips, I'd been international, so I didn't even know where the fuck I was, but.

• 1:49:09Lex Fridman?

  You're in Texas right now, by the way, just in case you forgot.

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  Texas, just for you.

• 1:49:13Lex Fridman?

  Thank you, man. It's an honor.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  But I hadn't really even trained. I couldn't train. Like, I was traveling, just had no ability to train. I trained for like a a week, had the Phil Row match. And I said to myself, I was down in Mexico City. And I said, you know what? If you win this match, you got to face Lovato next week. Don't go out and party. Don't celebrate the victory. But as a 32 year old man at the time, hitting a flying triangle submission, I thought that deemed a worthy after party.

• 1:49:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  And we got out of control that night. And it wasn't till the next day I woke up, I was like, oh, I have Lovato next weekend. But I'm also, people don't know whether I'm telling the truth or not, but it's also, I'm almost too honest because I'll be like doing interviews saying, yeah, I was out partying, I barely trained. The opponent looks into that and they question it. Is he telling the truth? Is he baiting me? Is he really that unconcerned? You know what I mean? It's almost a psychological battle in and of itself, but for the most part, it's true.

• 1:50:12Lex Fridman?

  So to you, being psychologically relaxed is extremely important, just not giving a damn. I wonder what that is?

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  Not too much pressure. I don't want, I don't like the pressure.

• 1:50:22Lex Fridman?

  But you like the pressure when it comes to internet shit talking?

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, you get to silently sit back and think about a good response, you know?

• 1:50:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. How important is it to just go crazy hard rounds leading up to competitions like that? You said, sort of, Nicky Rod, but like, on average, for like athletes at world class level, do you have to put in the hard rounds?

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you have to put in the hard rounds. It depends at what point in your career you are, you know, like, I think like, someone like Nicky Ryan might almost train too technically, too often. And when he comes to competition, it's a confronting experience when someone hits him hard and he feels that pressure. So I think different people require different things. When Nicky Rod, when Nicky Rod is breaking the spine of a 37 year old father of three bus driver, it might be time for him to train in a more technical manner. So it's like, you got to cater to what they need. And again, depending on the opponent, it's a game of strategy, you know, like, for me, when I was more active. I look at an opponent that I want, that I could steal some clout from, of which the

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  clout you can make money. And I think to myself, what's the best rule set I can beat him in? That's the strategy. And then how would I beat him in that rule set? So there's so many strategic layers to, to go above and beyond just the training for me. But nowadays I like to, if I train, short duration, high intensity. That's the best of me. I don't like this six or like 10, six minute rounds, whatever. Like, I don't like this long training. I don't like, it's, it's, for me, it's too much toll on the body. I think, um, I go to the gym, we bang, maybe the first round slightly light, and then just bang it out. Two hard rounds tops, little bit of problem solving, get out of there. Cause you want to feel the, a little bit of

• 1:52:14Speaker 01

  the competition intensity. That feels the best on my body.

• 1:52:18Lex Fridman?

  Uh, when you're traveling, you're doing seminars and you're just doing jiu jitsu with folks. Are you training with them? I'm sure there's like, from everything I see, people would love to train with you.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, they wanna, they wanna, I mean, I don't know what it is. Obviously,

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  you, I guess you, it's like, it's like people want to play basketball with like a basketball star or something, you know what I mean? But, uh, I guess if you played one on one with a basketball, uh, there's no great risk of injury, you know?

• 1:52:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  That's, that's, that's the real problem is like, uh, if you don't roll at your seminar, the seminar participants don't feel like they got the full experience.

• 1:52:59Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  But there's snipers at these seminars. There's these sharks that are circling wanting to attack you. And you have to look at it, you look at it from both perspectives. I think you should provide excellent technique, excellent question and answer time. And I think you should roll a little bit. For the most part, these days I'll just roll 30 minutes straight. I'll just do 10 guys, three minutes, no break, 30 minutes straight. I might even get the guy to pick. Cause again, if you, some of these guys come in hot.

• 1:53:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's terrifying, man. Because the thing is, like with Anthony Bourdain.

• 1:53:33Lex Fridman?

  Sort of analogy here, like you're exploring all parts of the world. You just wanna be there in the culture, teach good techniques and just socialize. You don't wanna like, there's just a bunch of killers that are trying to like murder you.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, to them, they're like, I get to test myself against a world-class athlete today. And to you, you're like, oh, I'm in Odessa, I'd like to get to know the people.

• 1:53:59Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Try some food, have a couple of drinks and enjoy the place. But to them, it's time, it's time to go. You've got to rope it open a bit, you know, like if I, if I meet pressure with pressure, I get tired.

• 1:54:11Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  But if I don't provide resistance where they think there should be resistance now, it slows their pace down, they get shocked a bit. But 100%, if I'm at a seminar and someone's rolling too hard with me, if I feel like I might get hurt, I will 100% rip a submission on them. You, you know what I mean? Like, it's like where you're confronted with a threat.

• 1:54:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  You have to meet it with a threat. It's like, uh, I've spoken about this with Ryan Hall. Ryan Hall give him a warning and then gone. And I think it's perfectly acceptable. Like I won't endanger them for no reason. But if you're coming hot, you better tap fast. If I feel a threat, you better tap. I'm not gonna break, break it for the sake of breaking it. But if you're, if you do some crazy shit and that might potentially hurt me, and I get a submission and I'm tired. If you're fresh, you can catch a heel hook, hold it tight. The guy tries to wiggle out, you got it.

• 1:55:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  If you're tired and you've been nice with a heel hook, and then they slip out and club you on the head, then next time is gonna be the last time.

• 1:55:21Lex Fridman?

  Well, last time, see, you're another level. You and Ryan Hall are just world-class, but like.

• 1:55:26Lex Fridman?

  For me, I'm trying to find navigate through this because I'd like to be able to roll, you know, like 10 rounds for fun, for cultural like.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  They're coming for you too.

• 1:55:35Lex Fridman?

  And unfortunately, ripping submissions are like, you know, Neon Belly is some kind of dominant position. People don't like hear the message at all. Or if I let them submit me a bunch of times, they don't calm down either. So it's, I've been trying to figure out how to solve that puzzle because I'd like to keep rolling with people across the world for like for many more years to come. But it's tough.

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  You can't do it. If you, if you've reached any level of notoriety, whether it's in the sport or just as a celebrity, you're better off to just have three, four trusted training partners and train privately. That's the sad situation. People used to say, oh, you could be such and such a good at any gym. No, those days are over now. Now, if you show up and you have any sort of name, they're coming to kill. You better, honestly, you're better off. It's so much safer. Training is about trusting. Trust is built from safe rounds.

• 1:56:35Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  Strangers are scary.

• 1:56:38Lex Fridman?

  I don't know. I'm trying to develop the radar when I look at a person. Trying to like figure out, are they?

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Are they from Eastern Europe? I'll tell you what, the most dank.

• 1:56:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  That's a good one. You know what? Anyone that wears a pit bull sports rash guard.

• 1:56:52Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  Or anyone from the country of Poland, be ready.

• 1:56:56Lex Fridman?

  Oh, Polish people go hard.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  People go hard. I've never had a flow roll with a Polish person.

• 1:57:02Lex Fridman?

  Somebody on Reddit asked, how many legs did you break in Eastern Europe?

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  Three or four.

• 1:57:08Lex Fridman?

  To send a message or just for your own personal enjoyment?

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  I don't enjoy it. You know, they.

• 1:57:13Lex Fridman?

  You don't enjoy the violence?

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  It is humorous after the fact, though. Because I mean, it's just like, hey, like, bro, I'm jet lagged. I'm tired. I'm here for you guys. Why are you trying to hurt me? You know, like if I get a submission, tap, don't hesitate at all. Don't hesitate. You know, like, it's like, it's, I mean, Jiu Jitsu is dangerous. It's a dangerous thing. And when strangers going crazy, it's their show. They think they're getting an invite to CJI if they tap me. This is wild.

• 1:57:43Lex Fridman?

  So speaking of which, just for the hobbyist, for a person just starting out, what wisdom can you provide? Like, say you, you were tasked with coaching a beginner, a hobbyist beginner.

• 1:57:57Lex Fridman?

  How would you help them become good in a year?

• 1:58:03Lex Fridman?

  What would be the training regimen? What would be their approach? Mental, physical, in terms of practice? In jujitsu?

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, picking safe training partners and trying to understand the positions and not just freaking out. Like, you might escape if you freak out, but you also might be stuck in something and you injure yourself. So it's like, I think if you can, it's, it's just about longevity, you know, like, if you can train, find a pace to train at, and a like sort of intensity and the right people, you could potentially train five years without injury. It's really about how you move. If you are always moving in an explosive way, eventually you're going to do that from a position in which you can't move and then something's going to tear. And you also want to be able to trust training partners

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  to not go too crazy and inflict too much pain. You know what I mean? It's like,

• 1:59:00Speaker 01

  yeah, I think I've managed to avoid a lot of injuries because I just never roll too athletically explosively. I think I'm probably incapable of moving at that rate of speed.

• 1:59:12Lex Fridman?

  So that's part of it is you, the way you move, but I guess you also don't allow anybody to put you in a really bad position in terms of hurting you?

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  I let them put me in bad position, but I try to stay relaxed at all times. You know, that's the, that's the key here is like, I mean, yeah, obviously you got the cheesy, keep it playful, but it's like, you, if you really keep, if you can remain calm in bad positions, that is a skill. That's your confidence, not in yourself, but that the other guy's incapable of submitting you. That's the ultimate confidence. You can give them whatever you want.

• 1:59:43Lex Fridman?

  So the thing you want as a beginner is to focus on minimizing injury by, by relaxing, by not going, by not freaking out?

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  Yes, keeping it at a pace so you can understand what just happened.

• 1:59:53Lex Fridman?

  The thing is, like, how do you know if you're freaking out or not as a beginner? It feels like a

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  If you're panicking.

• 2:00:00Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, if you're, that's a good, if you're, I mean, I see a lot of beginners kind of breathing, starting to breathe hard, their day turns up. That's probably underneath that is panic.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you can make someone panic, you fatigue them. It's the same. It's like if you're, even if you're higher level and you're worried about getting your guard passed, it's the panic that leads to fatigue in your guard retention. But if you're, if you're so flexible, you remain calm. I think it's because you're not panicked.

• 2:00:26Lex Fridman?

  Fear is the mind killer. But also, you have one of the more innovative games in jujitsu history. How'd you develop that? How do you continue throughout your career? How are you innovating? What was your approach to learning and figuring positions out, figuring submissions out?

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  I mean, financial motivation. If you can hit moves that no one else knows how to do,

• 2:00:50Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  you can sell those instructional. But also, it keeps it interesting because it's like, I mean, it can get stagnant and boring, you know, like a lot of people get to Blue Belt, they're good at one thing, they only do that one thing. I think it's finding creative ways to beat people. And sometimes creativity is in how they respond to it. So if you can find a humiliating move to do to someone, well, not even necessarily humiliating, but a move that is unexpected. When you get with someone you don't expect, I think that is sort of really one of the most fun aspects of it. You know what I mean? Like, you train to stay better than the people you're better than. That's what keeps you in the game. And finding creative ways to beat those people is some of the most entertainment.

• 2:01:35Lex Fridman?

  So that's just something that brings you joy is by doing the unexpected.

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, trying to, if you get swept with something that you don't think should work, I think that's fulfillment.

• 2:01:49Lex Fridman?

  So your game is even a bit trolly interesting. So like, but what's the actual process of like, like with the Z guard, all the innovative stuff you've done there? How do you come up with ideas there?

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  I mean, you're just studying tape, just study, study tape and try to reverse engineer. Like if I see a, if I see something or I train with someone and it feels You know, when you have those moments where you're like, oh, I don't even know what they're doing here. And if you can put someone in a position, they don't understand, that's also where they panic. So it's like creating different ways to make people panic. But also, I mean, just innovation, like having fun with it, you know, like, I guess the artistic aspect of it is fun. You can be creative in how you can beat people.

• 2:02:29Lex Fridman?

  Did you say artistic or autistic?

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  Both.

• 2:02:32Lex Fridman?

  Okay, just checking.

• 2:02:36Lex Fridman?

  What's like the most innovative thing you've come up with? What's like some of the cooler ideas you've come up with on the mat?

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  I don't think I've come up with anything, but I've popularized things, you know, like certain styles of leg entry. I definitely didn't invent them, but I popularized them. Octopus guard, playing more from turtle, sort of the pinning style of game, like you could, like as a, because of my jokes online, put me in a position of power in the sport so that when I post content, it can popularize a move or at least an instructional popularize a game. But it's still, I'm not trying to sell inauthentic products. I'm still, I want the technique to work, be functional.

• 2:03:16Lex Fridman?

  But put some humor on top of it, like power bottom, their instructional names are pretty good. And B, you changed that one. I saw the name of that.

• 2:03:23Speaker 01

  I mean, unfortunately, Meta, the ads, we're not appreciating some of that humor. So we had to soften, soften the titles a bit.

• 2:03:31Lex Fridman?

  You got a, you got a phone call from the man said, change this.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  I didn't allegedly, the company hosting it.

• 2:03:39Lex Fridman?

  Right, right. What do you think about Zuck in general, like the fact that he trains jujitsu? Have you got a chance to train with him? Cause you're training Volk.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  I haven't trained with him. I met him when Volk's fought earlier. We've spoken briefly, interesting guy for sure. Loves jujitsu, loves MMA, is really intending to compete in something, I think.

• 2:04:03Lex Fridman?

  Competing in jujitsu, intends to compete in MMA, has a beginner's mind, is humble about it. It's interesting. Was he ever in consideration for CJI as a?

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, we would love to have him, would love to have him, but he is coming off of ACL surgery. I think he's returned to sport is August, so I think he'll be back training again soon.

• 2:04:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. What's your relationship has been like with Volkanovski? Like, what have you learned about martial arts, about grappling and different domains, just training with him?

• 2:04:33Speaker 01

  I mean, for me personally, what's so interesting about Volkanovski is his, I guess where he came from, you know, like, it's like you have pre-existing ideas of what a UFC champion is. Again, I would say it's similar to when I've started training jiu-jitsu and I first traveled to America and got to train with some really famous people, you realize how relatable they are in some aspects. Volkanovski trains a freestyle and it is humble beginnings, humble origins. Like, it's like, it's a small gym in a small sort of beachside city. They're running puzzle mats, you know what I mean? When you think UFC champion, you don't think Puzzle Mat Gym, you know what I mean? Like, he's not training at an American top team. He's not at one of these big gyms.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  So to me, it just shows what you're capable of through hard work and sort of self-educating in such an isolated place. It's insane to me that he's still considered probably the pound-for-pound best featherweight ever, in my opinion. And he's basically come across and started late from a rugby background. But also in terms of what I've learned, on a technical level, I've picked up a lot of stuff from him in sort of grappling exchanges, how to get back up, obviously wall wrestling.

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  In terms of how hard he trains, how hard he works, the cardio aspect is insane. His cardio workouts are absolutely insane.

• 2:05:59Lex Fridman?

  So he's the opposite of you?

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  Complete opposite of me, probably publicly and privately. As an athlete, yeah. The amount of work he puts in and just his sheer sort of mental willpower. I remember, there's been a couple of times where I've watched him do weight cuts where like, that's horrible, you're watching your friend, you know, obviously we started as. Like basically, I would help him in certain jiu jitsu aspects and then becomes a close friend of yours. But the whole process of the MMA fight is horrible, especially when you care about the person fighting, because some of those weight cuts you see are awful. Like you're basically seeing guys' eyes roll back in their head, like him just powering through

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  a five kilo, 10 pound cut and just constantly talking about how easy it is. But while clearly, I mean, these guys look like they're dying, you know, like to push through that and then to push through some of the moments in his, in his fight, to watch him be completely relaxed until like five minutes before the fight. And then he starts talking about, you're never going to take this belt away from my family. Like he's thinking about his family before he fights his kids. You know, you see the character change. It's just absolutely insane to watch. On the other side of that is obviously watching the ups and downs. There's been so many ups, the last two have been downs. So you see in the full spectrum of the highest

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  highs and the lowest lows.

• 2:07:29Lex Fridman?

  How's he able to deal psychologically with, with loss?

• 2:07:32Speaker 01

  I don't know. Obviously, still hungry, still motivated. Obviously, I thrive in a losing environment, but him, him on the other hand, I'm not sure. But I, we, we don't talk too much on that level. Obviously, we check in his friends, see what he's up to, see what he's planning. Yeah. Uh, we were trying to get him a grappling match at CJ. I won't say the reasons it fell through, but we were setting one up with Mikey Musumichi, but we couldn't get it done.

• 2:08:02Lex Fridman?

  And you can't say the reasons why.

• 2:08:04Speaker 01

  I'll tell the reason, but it would have been, would have been awesome.

• 2:08:05Lex Fridman?

  You think you could have set that up if you had more time, like set something like, like part of the challenge here is for some of these gigantic matchups. I feel like it takes time.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that being the promoter, tournament, not as bad. The super fights, really, really difficult. I don't think we could have set it up with more time, that particular match, but that was the dream. That's what we're hoping to do.

• 2:08:30Lex Fridman?

  But there's a lot of other interesting matchups you could have possibly gotten through if there's more time.

• 2:08:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd love to see. I, I mean, personally, I really want to see Volks and Ortega have an actual grappling match. Because we saw him get out of those deep submissions and apply a ton of ground and pound, I'd love to see him just have a grappling match. I'd love to see more of the UFC stars have grappling matches, especially if they've had any head trauma in a fight. It's like, hey, let's keep him busy because as you see, some of those guys go crazy if they can't train. What about the fights against Makachev? You think Volk can beat him? I think the first fight showed he could beat him for sure, showed it's possible. Even in the second fight, when he reversed the grappling exchange, I wish he'd tried to take Makachev down. I really think he has a huge strength advantage against Makachev,

• 2:09:19Speaker 01

  and I personally believe he has a fence wrestling advantage. You might not see it in a sense of the technical hip tosses and things like that, like really, but I do believe Volk's one of the best, if not the best cage wrestler in the world. Could you think wins in a grappling match? That would be interesting, right? Be interesting. The problem is to almost to, while you are champion like Islam is, you could just never book him. You could never get it. What do you think makes the Dagestani wrestlers and fighters so, so good? I mean, I think personally, those guys are just like, they just love it. It's just about like, it's how they train. Like, it's a fight to the death. You know what I mean?

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  Like, it's just built in them. They don't want to concede an inch ever. I think for MMA and wrestling, that can be very, very good. I think sometimes when those guys come over to Jiu Jitsu specific events, they get leg locked, they fall into traps, overly aggressive or overly evasive. But I think the way they train just is perfect for a fight. A fight, they can just forward pressure, eat some shots, grind a guy against the wall. Fence wrestling is technical. Jiu Jitsu's far more technical. There's way more things you can do in a grappling scenario from top and bottom than I think against the wall. So a grinding nature of how they train works really good to walk a guy down and take him down against the wall. And then obviously with

• 2:10:48Speaker 01

  ground and pound, very good to hold a guy down. So I think just never conceding an inch in training is just. They've done that since they were born, basically.

• 2:10:58Lex Fridman?

  So you learn how to grind somebody down?

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, like they're just trying to break each other at all times, trying to have some dominance over other, over their friends and who they train with.

• 2:11:09Lex Fridman?

  But you think in the grappling context that that will not always translate?

• 2:11:13Speaker 01

  No, not when you can pull guard and submit from your back. I think that sort of negates some of that grinding pressure. I think that has to be met with more slow, technical, lateral movement. I think that's the way you like, well, that's, that would be the dream for me is a guy just comes straight forward into my guard. So that grind, that grinding approach works well if he's taken me down and got already close to me. But if I'm laying flat on my back and he's standing and he has to engage, he has all that danger at range.

• 2:11:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:45Speaker 01

  But if he can connect to my body before we go down.

• 2:11:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:49Speaker 01

  Now we're in his world again, I think.

• 2:11:51Lex Fridman?

  I wonder if it's like, you know, at his prime could be versus you, for example. Who do you think wins there?

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  Buggy choke for sure.

• 2:11:58Lex Fridman?

  Buggy choke? No way. I know you're joking.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  We get him with a buggy, I reckon.

• 2:12:04Lex Fridman?

  Really? So you, you can get a buggy choke on, at the highest, at the highest level? Can you educate me on that? Like, if that legitimately can work at the highest level?

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  Buggy choke for sure, yeah.

• 2:12:15Lex Fridman?

  Really?

• 2:12:15Speaker 01

  Catch anyone.

• 2:12:16Lex Fridman?

  Really? Okay.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  You're not a buggy believer.

• 2:12:21Lex Fridman?

  I'm not, I'm not a buggy hater either. I'm just.

• 2:12:26Lex Fridman?

  I'm agnostic on the buggy choke.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Khabib would go to sleep for sure.

• 2:12:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah?

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no way he would tap to a buggy choke. I try, who was it I faced recently? I faced Russian guy from Qatar. I couldn't buggy him. I had, I was trying to close guard one though, sort of like a, it is harder to pull off. But he, I had to put him to sleep twice at the end of the match with a triangle, but he was just willing. Like, I don't know, Eastern European guys, it's like, what, like, they're fighting, they're treating it like a real fight, you know?

• 2:12:54Lex Fridman?

  Have you ever, like, gone hard with a Dagestani person? Like grappling, wrestling? Any of the fighters, any of them MMA guys?

• 2:13:04Speaker 01

  Have I, have I, have I? I mean, they do train hard, they do train hard. When I did the seminar in Odessa, it was at a school, but another school in the city brought like ten Dagestani guys. All of them went insanely hard.

• 2:13:18Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  I was like, guys.

• 2:13:20Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  I would tell you, it's a small sample size, but they all wanted to be broken.

• 2:13:26Lex Fridman?

  What do you think, you as the wise sage of jiu-jitsu, if you look 10, 20 years out, how do you think the game is going to evolve? The art of it?

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  The art of it? I mean, I think obviously people are going to keep innovating, perfecting certain things, throwing out information, bad sort of techniques, bad sort of. But I mean, it's so hard to predict. It's like, that's the game of making money off the instructional is predicting where we go next. It's so, so difficult.

• 2:13:52Lex Fridman?

  What do you think is going to be the most popular submissions, CGI, ADCC this year? Is it going to be foot locks or rear naked?

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  I think, uh, actually CJ, I, I think there's going to be a lot of guys that don't tap, that take injuries.

• 2:14:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  A small concern is that a guy wins the match, but is so injured, he's can barely go on to the next match.

• 2:14:14Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:14Speaker 01

  But win the battle, lose the war.

• 2:14:16Lex Fridman?

  We are going to see that, aren't we? People refusing to tap.

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  We're actually, we did the walkthrough yesterday and we were like, one ambulance is not enough. Get a second one here.

• 2:14:25Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:26Speaker 01

  Cause if they take one guy injured to hospital, we can't continue until an ambulance comes back. So these guys are, are going to go, everyone will be Dagestani for a day.

• 2:14:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:37Speaker 01

  That's what I think this tournament will achieve.

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  But progression, it'll just be the integration of wrestling into jiu-jitsu. You know, I think that would be the most exciting way this sport could progress is basically. Folk style wrestling, but an integration of submissions from a standing position too. If you just follow the rules of you should always be fighting to get on top, whether that's a submission that leads to a sweep or a sweep, and you should be trying to avoid being pinned. And as long as the game revolves around that and guys engage each other offensively on the feet, that would be the most exciting, best way to watch the sport.

• 2:15:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, when I show the sport, as you just said, the most exciting stuff is whenever both people want to be wrestling, scrambling wrestling, they want to both want to get on top.

• 2:15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:28Lex Fridman?

  That looks like fighting versus guard stuff.

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  I'm a guy that totally agrees with you, but if I think the guys are going to wrestle, I will concede. You know, like, it's like, that's the gas, the hard part.

• 2:15:39Lex Fridman?

  But then the whole, the whole crowd will then mock you ceaselessly, as they should for conceding.

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  That's what the million should be. We should have a tournament or a round robin thing where it's like, the million goes to the most exciting man.

• 2:15:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  Who took the most risks.

• 2:15:53Lex Fridman?

  I mean, in a way, that's what's going to happen because this is quite open. So the benefit of being exciting is you're going to be glorified on social media. And if you're going to be boring and stall, you're going to be endlessly sort of willified.

• 2:16:08Speaker 01

  And forget about medals. Social media glory is all that matters.

• 2:16:12Lex Fridman?

  Well, in a sense, on a basic human level, yeah. I mean, not what all that matters, but it's, you're not gonna, if you're gonna stall, you're gonna become a meme, I feel like, especially with CTI. And so is there, are the refs gonna try to stop stalling?

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna penalize them hard, hit them hard, get that boring shit out of there.

• 2:16:32Lex Fridman?

  So what percentage of athletes would you say are on steroids? Does it 100%?

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Anyone that's ever beaten me.

• 2:16:41Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  They're taking more steroids than me.

• 2:16:44Speaker 01

  I don't know. I wanted to test them, but not to do anything bad, but just in the name of science to see what people are running, you know? It's so hard to say, cause you like, you train with people and they don't even tell you what they're on. I tell the world what I'm on and they go, look at you, you're not taking any steroids. So it's like, it's like such a secret, secret thing. I personally think it's almost impossible to say, but occasionally you look at a guy and you're pretty certain, you know?

• 2:17:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, the looks of it. But it could also go the other way. Certain people are genetically built and they look like they are. And then there's probably others like yourself.

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a self-defense mechanism because you'd rather assume that that guy was on steroids than his genetics is so far superior to yours.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  You're like, no, it must be steroids.

• 2:17:35Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that's the part of accusations of people being on steroids that I hate. It's like without data, people are just like, it's a way they can say that somebody's cheating without, because I like celebrating people and sometimes people aren't on steroids and they aren't cheating and they're just fucking good.

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  What about Gabby Garcia?

• 2:17:55Lex Fridman?

  I think she's beautiful, strong, and you're a lucky man to share the mat with her. You should be honored. And I have, I'm betting a huge amount of money on her, so.

• 2:18:07Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:18:09Lex Fridman?

  Either way, you're gonna get paid.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  She's paying 11 to one.

• 2:18:12Lex Fridman?

  I bet on love as well. So we are aligned in that way.

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  Love will prevail.

• 2:18:17Lex Fridman?

  Okay. You put Alex Jones to sleep, just to reflect back on that.

• 2:18:25Lex Fridman?

  What was?

• 2:18:26Speaker 01

  He was too woke. He needed it.

• 2:18:28Lex Fridman?

  So you, that's you fighting the woke mind virus or whatever?

• 2:18:30Speaker 01

  I think he was on the pills too much.

• 2:18:32Lex Fridman?

  What was that like? I didn't, I didn't see the, the full video. I just saw a little clip.

• 2:18:36Speaker 01

  I thought he was dead for a second, but I, for some strange reason, couldn't stop laughing.

• 2:18:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:40Speaker 01

  I don't know. I was like, please wake up.

• 2:18:43Lex Fridman?

  There's something, there's something funny about it. Yeah.

• 2:18:45Speaker 01

  I was like, his blood pressure's higher than mine. I hope that didn't cook him.

• 2:18:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that would be quite sad.

• 2:18:50Speaker 01

  It's so crazy. He's.

• 2:18:51Lex Fridman?

  Murder somebody?

• 2:18:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's probably the most just entertaining human being ever. Off like, just, just, he just says the crate, like off air. He's always on. It's like, that's just.

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  He's always ready to, to say some wild shit.

• 2:19:09Lex Fridman?

  The craziest shit possible. What's it like going to sleep? I somehow have never gone to sleep.

• 2:19:15Speaker 01

  I went to sleep one time. Lachlan Jones was demonstrating a technique on me, but I woke up straight away. But for 10 seconds, I didn't know who I was, where I was, what I was doing. But that's it. That's the only time I went out.

• 2:19:24Lex Fridman?

  So, Annie.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  Didn't feel good, though. Some people say it feels good, did not feel good.

• 2:19:29Lex Fridman?

  Cause you were like, what panicked? Lost?

• 2:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just, I just didn't know what was going on.

• 2:19:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And then you load it in. That's a cool, that must be a cool feeling to load it all back in, like realize where am I? I feel like that sometimes in a hotel when I'm like traveling. It's like, where the fuck am I again? Like when you wake up? Maybe that's what it's like.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  Some people push it too far. David Carrion, you know?

• 2:19:48Lex Fridman?

  What? What?

• 2:19:51Lex Fridman?

  I'm, I'm too, I'm too dumb to get that joke.

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  What erotic asphyxiation?

• 2:19:57Lex Fridman?

  Oh, good. Thank you. Thank you. Now I know. So, given all the places you've gone, all the people you've seen recently, what gives you hope about this whole thing we got going on? About humanity? About this world? We start war sometimes. We do horrible things to each other sometimes. Wow. I missed all that. What gives you hope?

• 2:20:20Speaker 01

  That you can still make fun of anything. As long as it's funny. That's what I'm, that's what I'm fighting for. People talk about cancel culture. I just think the joke wasn't funny enough.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  Had poor delivery.

• 2:20:35Lex Fridman?

  Well, thank you for being at the forefront of making fun of everything and anything. And thank you for talking today, brother.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.

• 2:20:44Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Anthony Bourdain. Travel changes you. As you move through this life and this world, you change things slightly. You leave marks behind, however small. And in return, life and travel leaves marks on you.

• 2:21:09Lex Fridman?

  Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.