Linsanity Is Dead. Long Live Linsanity: Jeremy Lin on the Finals, the Garden and the Healing Power of These Knicks

Madison Square Garden hasn't felt this alive since a little-known point guard from Harvard became the most popular person in New York City. On the occasion of his grand return, Jeremy Lin sits down with Pablo, who's been covering him since their dorm-room days, for a full-circle conversation about pressure, toughness, fleeting fame, the end of his run with the Knicks, squashing the beef with Carmelo Anthony and, yes, getting recruited by Kim Kardashian. • Take the PTFO audience survey https://forms.gle/i2K6FecAbvBqDxRK9 • Subscribe to Pablo's newsletter https://pablo.show/ • Subscribe to PTFO on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@PabloTorreFindsOut Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  I would've played for significantly less if that meant staying with the Knicks. Like, significantly less, because my heart was always here.

• 0:15Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 0:19Speaker 02

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• 0:49Speaker 03

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• 1:15Pablo Torre?

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• 1:59Pablo Torre?

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• 2:23Pablo Torre?

  Yo.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  How are you?

• 2:26Pablo Torre?

  Good, man. You need coffee, anything? You got it.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  Shoot.

• 2:30Pablo Torre?

  Caffeinated?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  I am hurting right now. Journalism and all that.

• 2:37Pablo Torre?

  What time did you get to bed last night?

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Dude, I didn't sleep last night till like 2:30.

• 2:44Pablo Torre?

  You're in the ESPN machine now, man.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48Pablo Torre?

  It's so funny to have you in studio.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  I'm very happy to be here.

• 2:54Pablo Torre?

  Dude, I saw you, I mean, I first met you when you were a senior.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00Pablo Torre?

  And you were, you were trying to set up your Xbox.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  I was nice at Halo 3.

• 3:06Pablo Torre?

  I was gonna say.

• 3:09Pablo Torre?

  The Halo, the Halo resume was a lot stronger, it seems, than, than your draft stock.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, there weren't too many weaknesses in my Halo 3 game. Uh, in my draft stock, that wasn't too hot.

• 3:24Pablo Torre?

  No, no. What was, what was it like to be there in person last night? We're talking on Tuesday morning. Last night was game three. What, what did it feel like?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  It was, so, I'm, I'm there hours before and I'm there like an hour before they even let fans in. And so as they start to let fans in, they're trickling into their seat, you know, an hour and a half, two hours before the game, I'm doing some media on the, on the Sky Bridge, I think it's called. And I'm walking and the people in the nosebleeds are seeing me and, you know, there's, you know, 25% fill because they just opened the doors. And they're going crazy and I'm like, this is insane. And then they give me that, that, uh, you know, the introduction.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  I didn't know, but apparently it was close to a standing O or a standing O. You know, I'm instructed to look into the camera, wave, and just stare into the camera and smile. So I'm not looking, I can't see the greater arena. And I don't know what's actually happening. I can't see it on the Jumbotron or anything. I can only hear kind of, oh, there's some highlights, and staring into the camera, and I'm just focused like this. It wasn't until after, when Scott Van Pelt told me, he was like, they gave you a standing O. And I was like, really? I did not know that. But obviously, just completely, completely blown away.

• 5:08Pablo Torre?

  There was a lot happening last night. The thing that I kept on hearing from fans, from friends, and of course, I have a particular vantage point on this, but they kept on saying, "We are most excited to see Jeremy Lin [bleep] back in this building." The whole thing about this Knicks team that I'm forced back into contemplating is you. Because the Garden hasn't sounded like this since you were playing in it.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  The exclusive interview with the man at the center of the biggest story in sports. His name is Jeremy Lin. He's the seemingly out-of-nowhere overnight star of the New York Knicks. The man who launched a thousand bad puns, like "Linsanity" and "Lindarella Story."

• 5:50Speaker 05

  Lin with the ball in his hands. Fans on their feet. Five, four. Win for the win! Got it! Jeffrey's another rebound. Lin for three. Bang! The Jeremy Lin Show continues here at Madison Square Garden.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  I've heard that reference a lot yesterday. I think the last time it was like this was when Insanity was happening. And I was like, really? They've had some playoff runs recently and whatnot. You know, but I haven't been back, so I don't know. But it was genuinely overwhelming, you know? Even when we were filming for, you know, the initial show, the pregame show, I'm seeing my shirts, my jersey.

• 6:49Pablo Torre?

  Oh, the city, people are... Like it's 2012.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  I appreciate it. And even at the game yesterday, you know, like you see majority is Brunson. But there's a little bit of my stuff sprinkled in there. And so.

• 7:03Pablo Torre?

  You see the number 17.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  I'm just like, wow, like New York, they really, they really got my back.

• 7:11Pablo Torre?

  Well, look, the whole, the whole thing of what the potential of the Garden is and how this team, obviously, making a finals run is, is meeting that possibility. It was, it was proven by you, just the idea of like, this could be the greatest building in sports. In my lifetime, that's, that's the thing that I felt. And again, I've been, I've been covering you for way too long. But, but that was the premise. And so watching this team for you, I mean, it's gotta be weird. Kind of just surreal on a bunch of levels.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  It's so nice to see what's happening for multiple reasons. One, there's always so much appreciation, but there's always going to be a part of me that was like, I wish everything turned out differently. In terms of the ending with my Knicks, I didn't see that time ending so fast. I was expecting and hoping and praying to be back for more seasons, to give more performances, to be able to help take us further. And, and so to me, there's always a little bit of like Knicks fans deserve more. And I wasn't able to do that for them. And I just hope that anybody will be able to give them what they want,

• 8:30Speaker 01

  which is to win, win big, and to turn the city upside down. So for me, I'm seeing this. And I, I remember yesterday, I was just like, this is overwhelming, the production of everything, the energy of everything. And then I saw, you know, a journalist who has been covering me for almost the same amount of time that you have been covering me. And she says to me, she's, she says, I want you to soak this in. Because you are now in the spectator seat. And that's what it was like when you were doing everything. And I was like, that hit me really hard because I was like, this is overwhelming seeing just how much is happening for this team and how like ablaze this city is.

• 9:33Pablo Torre?

  What have you been learning as you watch this team? But also think about what watching you must have felt like? Because I was there, I was at the Garden when you dropped 38 on Kobe and the Lakers. I was covering you for Sports Illustrated throughout that whole run. What are you realizing about what that must have been like 14 years ago?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  It's just, it's the feeling of,

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I can't wait to like jump out of my seat. And yesterday, there's multiple times, I cannot see, I cannot see the floor unless I'm standing. And even when it's like, you shouldn't be standing, they're still standing, you know? And it's like, they just can't wait for anything good or semi-good to happen. So they could just jump out their seats and just cheer and go crazy. And that's just like, that's the pent up, like yearning for Knicks success, which is decades long. And it's highs and lows, but really it's a lot of lows. It's primarily lows through the last, you know, 20 years. And the last 53 years when they won it, 27 years since they've been in the finals.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  But it's just the pain and the, if you look at the arc of the organization, it's the gut-wrenching pain that makes this that much more exciting. And don't even get me started on what the Knicks mean to the city, what the Knicks mean to the world, the brand recognition. It is a cultural institution. And so it is literally, it feels like when you're walking around the city, it's almost like I'm scared to. Even have colors that look like I'm rooting for the Spurs. And I'm like, wearing a suit, you know, so I'm like, black and white. And people were like, are you rooting for the Spurs? I'm like, I'm wearing a black and white suit, okay? It's just a black and white suit. They're like, you can't root for the Spurs. I'm like, don't worry, I'm not rooting for the Spurs.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  There's that like, level of, you must rock with the Knicks. This is a Knicks city.

• 11:32Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, watching like, Karl-Anthony Towns, watching Jalen Brunson, watching these guys, Mikal Bridges, watching them get to feel like they're levitating. I mean, the thing about the Garden, the thing that people need to appreciate, on some level, yes, I'm born and raised in New York. I think that the sensation of New York City, when this is happening, is unparalleled. In culture and entertainment, it's just unparalleled. But the perspective of being at the center of it and feeling like you are riding this high.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:08Pablo Torre?

  At the time, you felt, what?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  I know they're going crazy, but it's almost like you can't process it all, right? Like, you can't allow, you can't allow space to process it. You can't allow space to enjoy it. Because the minute that you do that, you start to lose your edge. And I think that's what we're seeing with the Knicks.

• 12:28Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Are they able to really process what's happening?

• 12:31Pablo Torre?

  That's why I ask.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  They know. Because the minute that you do it, and that's, that's the, that's the beauty of professional sports is, it is literally the, you know, 0.1% that make a difference. And so, you know, you see Brunson, who looks pissed off when they win, and has been pissed off this entire series. You see.

• 12:50Pablo Torre?

  Hart, Josh Hart's the same way.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  They're just like, they're angry and they're locked in, and they refuse to take in what is happening. And that's the only way to, because the spotlight is so big, that's the only way to stay focused.

• 13:03Pablo Torre?

  But also because, and this is where it sort of like speaks to your experience, also because there's an understanding that all of this is fragile.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:11Pablo Torre?

  That this is fleeting. Like, someone out there is gonna be asking themselves, is this for real?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:17Pablo Torre?

  Is this guy someone I can trust? Or is this gonna evaporate? And we're gonna all think that, man, was that a... What a weird dream.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:26Pablo Torre?

  We had.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Because, because I think, again, this goes to understand the context and the history of the Knicks, where it's like, I want to put all my hopes and dreams on you, but then there's that always like that cautious optimism of like, what's gonna happen? Like, I'm expecting the other, I'm waiting for the other, you know, for the other shoe to drop, like, kind of having that feel too. Uh, I'm just gonna enjoy while it's here. You know, there's just so many emotions that are coming out. It's, it's, it's intense and it's, and it's understandable.

• 13:55Pablo Torre?

  You know, I, I need to remind people that you used to be a terrible quote.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Thank you, I appreciate that. I love the honesty and you're so right.

• 14:11Pablo Torre?

  I, I remember like, covering you at Harvard was one thing and I was like, okay, he's a college senior, whatever, like, I'll give grace. But when you were going through this thing.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:21Pablo Torre?

  You know, it was, it was, it was palpably uncomfortable.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I probably just started to realize that maybe five days into it, every set I'm going to, it's like, oh, Lynn this, Lynn that, and it was just a little, a little overwhelming. You know, and obviously we've known each other for, you know, over a decade now. So you, you know my personality and when I was a senior in college, through the first two, three years of my career, if you put me in an interview, I would tense up, I would be like, starting to sweat and have like, you know, I, I have that, right? Like, when I used to walk into a restaurant and people started to recognize me, like, oh, that's Jeremy Lin. I would immediately like tense up and like, have goosebumps or like, duck my head.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  It, it makes me nervous. I don't crave the spotlight, it makes me uncomfortable. But at the same time, I am built for the spotlight in a sense of, I'm built to perform under the brightest lights and I am built to rise to the occasion of whatever it is. And, and that's been true in my basketball career from a young age. But personality wise, it's, it's tough, man, and. And so, yeah, I apologize for all the bad quotes and the horrible answers, the short answers, the, the, "I don't know why he's talking to me about this. I don't know how to answer it," or whatever, all that, that, and then you're going back trying to figure out, "How am I gonna craft this? This answer was so damn bad."

• 15:49Pablo Torre?

  I was, I was, I was pretty annoying myself, cuz I was the guy who was just like relentlessly badgering you. "What color was your brother's couch that you were sleeping on? What neighborhood was it? Will you write this book with me?" And it's just like, okay, we were all, we were all, we were all very young back then. But, but the thing of what you were like, I mean, in those interviews, I could hear you thinking, which was the opposite from you on the floor.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:17Pablo Torre?

  And I wanna explain to people, like, you growing up, right, from Palo Alto, you've told me stories about growing up, and of course, Asian-American parents. I got to know your parents when I was interviewing them. When you were in college, and the level of both trust and belief that they had, that like, yo, this, our son might be a basketball player. Can you explain for people who don't know, like, your mom, for instance, just what she invested into that possibility, which is opposite from what any caricature of an Asian-American parent?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mom grew up and she loved dance, but she couldn't pursue it. My dad grew up, loved sports, but couldn't pursue it, because their parents, my grandparents, wouldn't allow them to do that. So when they got married and had kids, the one thing they decided was, "If our kids have a passion towards something, we won't restrict them from going down that route." And so they've funneled so many resources into, you know, competitive basketball is expensive, and we're, we're an immigrant family, so we don't have that money, right? And so they're literally interventions with our grandparents and, like, my grandmother, and then also their friends, and they're like, "You're spending and wasting too much money on your kids playing basketball. Like, that's not, that's not okay. You shouldn't be doing that."

• 17:39Pablo Torre?

  That's a bad investment.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  That's a bad investment. Like, you're, you're messing up your future. And it's funny, cuz once I made it to Harvard, then these same parents came back and was like, "Wait, wait, so what other sports can my kids play? Like, fencing, or, you know?" But even in Harvard, it wasn't like, "You're gonna graduate and play professional basketball." They're like, "You got a Harvard degree. You're gonna graduate and you're gonna..." Use your economics degree and go do what people with economics degrees go do. We were financially in such a tough position. And when it really came down to it, when I was preparing for the NBA draft, my mom emptied out her entire 401K so that I could eat until I was full, so I could prepare for the NBA draft. And at that time, we had, we were very far in debt.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  We had already borrowed from the bank. We had borrowed from the house. We had borrowed from Harvard. We, no one would let us borrow anymore. And then we had to borrow from family. And so my mom is, and dad are like, they're in a very tough position. And then my mom just has a little bit left in her 401K and gives it all to me and says, you got two years, and if you don't make this work in two years, you gotta go use that Harvard degree. And so the point of all of this is-

• 18:54Pablo Torre?

  You weren't eating till you were full.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just, I mean, I was, yeah, I was just trying to save money. So I was just eating Subway every day because they had $5 foot long. And I was just eating, like, I was just eating until it was like 75% full. Because I was like, man, if I keep eating and eating, that's another $5.25. It was $5 and 25 cents, including tax. And I remember it to this day because-

• 19:15Pablo Torre?

  Because you're an economics major.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm an econ major. And I'm eating this every day because I don't have a choice. But when it really comes down to it, when it really comes down to putting money where your mouth is, my parents did that, and I don't think a lot of people will.

• 19:27Pablo Torre?

  No, I mean, this is the, this is like the hidden context for when you're making the NBA and you're in the, in the, what was then called the D-league. And you have this opportunity to finally get off the bench. This is the stuff that is fueling-

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:46Pablo Torre?

  -the level of desperation.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And God's timing is so crazy because I finally signed with the Warriors on a partial guarantee. Rookie minimum. And I kid you not, within four weeks, both my parents were laid off. Because this is when, you know, they're engineers. They're engineers in the Silicon Valley. That's when tech and apps and everything was booming. And so they started going with a lot of younger engineers. And the whole industry shifted. And my parents, who have been computer engineers their whole life, they got laid off within two weeks of each other. This is within four weeks of me signing with Golden State. And they could never find, and they were looking. They couldn't find a job after that.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  And they had, they were consistently looking and nobody would hire. I'm just like, God, how would we have made it through that stretch? If, if I didn't make it in, if I didn't make it in NBA? Like, what would happen?

• 20:41Pablo Torre?

  It's the thing that takes you from the Warriors to the Rockets. Again, part of the legend is you get cut on Christmas Eve by the Houston Rockets. And our good friend Daryl Morey.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:57Pablo Torre?

  And you land, you land eventually here in New York. And just the highlight reel, the montage, the stuff that made me laugh the most, that was also, I'm sure terrifying. I remember headlines, Kim Kardashian wants to meet Jeremy Lin.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  What's the weirdest paparazzi moment you've had? Stuff about me dating, you know, Kim Kardashian. I mean, I have no idea where that came from and all these other rumors. You don't think you're the Kim Kardashian type? Uh, no, I think, uh, no, I don't think I'm that type.

• 21:29Pablo Torre?

  I still don't know the origin of that.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  So this is what I've heard, and I don't know if it's true or not, but this is what I've heard. That request did come in to the Knicks, and that is a real request. I think basically she, at that time, was filming her show, which is, I don't know if it's like Keeping Up With The Kardashians or whatever show was happening back then. But I know that she was looking for kind of like a New York athlete.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  And so to kind of be on this show essentially. And this is all like, again, is this true or is this not, I don't know. This is what was told to me afterwards. Because the request came into the Knicks, they immediately declined it without even asking us. Because they're like, this is not, this is not, you know, we're not allowing our young, second year player to go down this route right now.

• 22:17Pablo Torre?

  They wouldn't let me interview you. That was how protective the Knicks were of you at the time.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I didn't even know that.

• 22:25Pablo Torre?

  What was the sort of most memorable or scary part? If you're just to look back and be like, oh yeah, that, that was part of my existence in the city.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  So I'm living on the couch.

• 22:42Pablo Torre?

  Your brother's couch, Josh's couch.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden, it's like, we have like 10, 15 offers from the nicest properties in Manhattan. Come stay at our penthouse suite for free, blah, blah, blah, blah. Come stay here for free, everything for free. I'm like, oh, so I move into the residences at the W. And they took care of me. I didn't have to pay for anything. And I was just like, oh, I'm glad I'm not on the couch. It's everything's furnished, it was great. And I remember because the paparazzi and the fans and everything was so crazy. I couldn't really leave unless it was like midnight or something and sneak out. You go out the back entrance, but there's a stretch where I couldn't leave without being followed.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And I remember I was always, I was on like, I don't know, the 35th floor or something. And I was, I would always look out the window and just see like, which cars are down there by the, by the lobby? Can I leave right now or will I be followed?

• 23:44Pablo Torre?

  But it reminds me that as much as you were like the most popular person in New York City, you couldn't actually explore the city at all. Like I remember learning that you hadn't, you didn't even like know what Times Square was. Like you were, you were sort of like going from place to place, sequestered secretly. And so the thing that you're getting to do now, 14 years later, is actually like, be in actually community with like people.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, yeah, I get to walk down the street and say what's up to the fans and whatever. And one of my vivid memories, and it's extremely vivid because when I come back to the city, I think about it every time I come back to the city was. During that stretch, this was after the season had ended. I had torn my meniscus and I was trying to rehab. And I remember like me and my brothers and my family, we went and walked to an outdoor park very late at night. And we were like shooting around and playing horse. And that was one of my most vivid memories from that year of, because I finally felt safe outdoors with my family. And it felt like I was a kid again. And it was in Battery Park. And that was one of the things I remember the most because I just wanted to feel normal again.

• 25:06Pablo Torre?

  Hello, it's me Pablo. We have been very interested in what you guys actually like about this show. And so in the show notes, there is a survey. You'll find it magically as a link somewhere down there. And you can tell us what you want more of, what you want less of, what annoys you about me and potentially all of my friends. We will use this to improve the show. It takes like 30 seconds, so please fill it out. And we will make this better, allegedly. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. With Apple Card, you earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases like groceries or merch or tickets to the game. Plus, it can be used anywhere MasterCard is accepted. No matter your team, no matter where you shop,

• 25:50Pablo Torre?

  Apple Card is here to help you tackle game day. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  With a Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 26:39Pablo Torre?

  The idea that you were trying to find something like yourself through this whole process.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:46Pablo Torre?

  It reminds me of finding out, I remember talking on the phone with you and your reps about the Knicks not matching the contract because back comes our friend Daryl Morey and he has this big offer from the Rockets and the Knicks had told you, "Go test the market."

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:04Pablo Torre?

  And you did and you got an offer and you're a restricted free agent and the Knicks said, "Congratulations on your new contract, but we're not matching this."

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:12Pablo Torre?

  But I just remember thinking like, "That's how this [bleep] book ends?"

• 27:17Speaker 01

  It's due time, I guess, to kind of close, fully close the book because I've always, the one thing I've always kind of maintained is what I'm most proud, one of the things I'm most proud of through my career is what I haven't said. It's not what I've said or what I've done, it's what I haven't said and the timing of what I have or have not said. And it's been hard because obviously I'm human and I'm okay if you tell me I suck. I'm okay if you tell me I can't shoot it well or I wasn't a good defender when I was younger or I couldn't go left when I was younger. Like you talk basketball and you criticize me, it doesn't bother me, that's okay.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  It's when you attack my character, that's what, you know, has historically been like, man, like it brings a different level of emotion. And so I think, you know, this trip coming back, shout out to the current Knicks because what it has done is their success has been healing for many, many people, for many fans, for many people. It has brought people together and it has also healed many things from the Linsanity Stretch because I'm having conversations, I'm in spaces that I haven't been in before and we're all doing this because the current Knicks are doing so well. Very recent news, but, you know, I was able to have a good conversation with Carmelo Anthony

• 28:42Speaker 01

  because of the current Knicks Stretch. And so we talked a lot about things that happened and we were able to have a very good clear the air discussion privately. And so I think now it's appropriate to, you know, share these things and. I was crushed when the Knicks. It wasn't just when the Knicks didn't match. And I still remember that very vividly because in my mind, I'm like, everything leading up to it is a three day period. But everything even before the three day period, I was like, there's no way they matched. There's no way they match. And that three day period felt like three months. Pablo is like,

• 29:18Speaker 01

  the longest three days of my life. And my agent is just telling me like, be prepared that they won't match. And I'm like, there's no way. There's no way. I gotta go back to New York. But, you know, I wasn't able to. When everything started, it was, yeah, it was, there was no contract. They could have offered me three years, nine million. But there wasn't even that offer on the table. And when the Rockets offer came in, the first question I asked my agent is, are the Knicks gonna match this? He's like, I don't know. And I was like, can you go back to the Rockets and tell them we won't accept this offer? We only want a lower offer. I tried to take less. I was like, I was trying to sabotage the Rockets offer.

• 29:59Pablo Torre?

  Good, good econ major.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, I don't like this poison pill, like, bring it down.

• 30:05Pablo Torre?

  It was designed, the contract was designed to be hard to match.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 30:10Pablo Torre?

  Because that's what the Rockets' strategy was.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I remember it, I remember it vividly as I was, I finished this, this lift, an hour and a half lift, and I, and I run outside. I call my agent back and I'm like, okay, the offer came through. Like, no, we have to, we have to get a less lucrative offer because I gotta go back to New York. And then finally, I'm like, can we just not accept their offer? And he's like, no, we can't not accept their offer because the Knicks refused to give us any offer. You have zero offers on the table. You have one option right now. There is no, there is no alternative. You have one offer and you have to accept it and leave it to the Knicks to, to match or not. And that's how badly I wanted to go back. And, and so,

• 30:52Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Obviously for me, it was, it was a kind of difficult just to see like, That people thought I willingly left the Knicks, or I did it for the money, or whatever. And I'm just like, man, like, I would have, I would have played for significantly less if that meant staying with the Knicks. Like significantly less, because my heart was always here.

• 31:15Pablo Torre?

  I didn't think I would see it happen, honestly. And the things you've been navigating that you're too diplomatic to say, it's like people accusing you of like, ah, he's greedy. He just wanted the money. He was, thought he was bigger than he was. I mean, that's, if you don't understand the backstory of your life, it can be insanely, of course, corrupting in terms of like what people think of you. And that's, and that, look, it takes us to what your career took you to, which was Houston, and then the Lakers, and then Charlotte, and Brooklyn, and Atlanta, then Toronto. And watching you from afar, it was watching someone try to find himself.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:59Pablo Torre?

  And I don't just mean like the different hairstyles, but I also kind of mean the different hairstyles. Just the idea of like, who am I? What am I in public? How do I figure that out? As all of the context for people maybe only knowing me for one thing, but not necessarily knowing what to make of me otherwise. Like that's, I was uncomfortable watching you be uncomfortable.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's palpable, you know? Like you, other journalists, other people, when they look back, they were just like, you were scared, you were overwhelmed, you were guarded, you didn't know what's happening, you were trying to find yourself. And that's all true, right? Like, the different hairstyles, what was that? That was me learning to be okay, being criticized and laughed at. I was criticized and laughed at a lot, especially when I didn't go back to New York. And then the performances of Linsanity averaging those stats started to dwindle. But I was, it hurt and it ate me up. But me trying different hairstyles was not because I thought they looked cool. They were horrible, they looked ugly. But it was just be okay being made fun of.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Be okay being criticized and be comfortable in your own skin. And it was so hard to find myself.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Because the world didn't even know what to do with me. And so there's this huge evolution of, how do I handle everything that came to be? And linsanity itself, the moment was so big. And it's like, that's not, that's not normal stuff, man. That kills, and that's why the Manzells and the Bieber's and the people who get that level of fame that quick or overnight or that young, like, my heart goes out to all of them. Because you will end up jaded and bitter or, and you will have to go through kind of the cycles of, you know, you're naive, and then you're on cloud nine. And then you start to like question things because people are changing and people you trusted are changing.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  And things, and you're starting to realize the reality of, of the world and how people operate. And then you go into this like jaded, bitter, angry phase. And then you start to lash out. And then after you do enough of lashing out and, and jadedness, then you start to have small moments of hope and gratitude. And eventually you evolve to get to a place where you can embrace and be grateful for all of it. And these are the stages of, you know, processing and, and all of that that I was going through.

• 34:32Pablo Torre?

  I, I remember visiting you when you were with the Lakers. And this is Kobe, this is the soft like Charmin era.

• 34:55Pablo Torre?

  This is you not wanting to even say the term linsanity.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:01Pablo Torre?

  It was like, I distinctly remember you like holding the term linsanity like, you know, someone would hold a diaper, just like away from you. And it's like, that's not, no, I don't call it, you kept on calling it when New York happened.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't even say the word.

• 35:19Pablo Torre?

  Why not?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I think it was just a shadow that I couldn't outrun. And.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  I think how I used to see it was, look, I'm competitive, I'm ambitious, so if you're talking about what happened in 2012, that means I haven't done my job as a player, because in 2013, I should be surpassing what I did in 2012. In 2015, I should be surpassing what I did in 2013. There should be new memories, there should be new stories, new chapters, a new legacy. And the truth is,

• 35:56Speaker 01

  you cannot top Linsanity. Like, I was the number one most searched person on Google. I was the most popular person on the planet. How do you top that? You cannot top that. And so for me, even if I went on, I was, let's say I was a starter and All-Star and I won a championship on another team, it does not top Linsanity.

• 36:16Pablo Torre?

  No.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  It's not New York City, it's not the story of what it was, it didn't come out of left field, I'm not sleeping on a couch.

• 36:22Pablo Torre?

  The city would not feel, I mean, no city could feel like what Linsanity was.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  It's impossible to top, and because of that, that crushed me. Because it was like, well, the trajectory arc of any young player is you get better and better and keep going higher and higher. And so, yeah, I held it out like a stinky diaper. And it was a shadow, and eventually, I realized this is one of the coolest things in the world. This was a life-changing moment for myself and for millions of others.

• 36:51Pablo Torre?

  That's the thing, is that as you were trying to prove that you were more than this peak all-time cultural moment, the people for whom this was a peak all-time cultural moment never stopped thinking that you were the guy.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:06Pablo Torre?

  And making peace with that, that you had different, that different demographics were responding to you in different ways, right? Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, the NBA, they're like, who is this, who is this guy who thinks he's bigger than we are?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:22Pablo Torre?

  And then there were the people who were like, thank God. That this guy is representing us

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:29Pablo Torre?

  At the highest levels.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's all of those combined, right? And making peace with every element of it. Linsanity essentially was a crash course, an accelerated course on these important lessons that I need to learn on life. And so when I was able to see it that way, I was actually grateful that I was able to learn that much in a short amount of time. Granted, there was a lot of pain and a lot of heartbreak, but I was learned a lot in a short amount of time and it very much shaped who I am today. And so I do feel like, man, Linsanity really grew me up and I became different. And why am I now able to kind of speak out and carry the mantle, not as a weight, but to carry it as a source of pride, to embrace being Asian American, to be able to speak up and do these things

• 38:14Speaker 01

  and to be able to say, yes, I was that player that started Linsanity and to say that proudly and to say, it changed lives, it inspired millions. That is all part of my evolution of being able to embrace it and see the positivity because there is just so much more positive than negative.

• 38:41Speaker 05

  State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier.

• 38:44Speaker 06

  We'll have room for fried cookies.

• 38:46Speaker 05

  OK, you'd never overspend on food. What's your deal?

• 38:49Speaker 02

  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy 837 5G for free and no activation fees.

• 38:58Speaker 05

  Free phone? Oh, sign me up.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Get that more for your money feeling only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available with Metro T-Mobile in the past 180 days.

• 39:12Speaker 05

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• 39:20Speaker 03

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• 39:58Pablo Torre?

  The thing that I don't know if you were ever able to appreciate was that you felt to so many people, me included, like the picture of confidence during that run.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:12Pablo Torre?

  It was unapologetic. You were waving people off in Toronto on Valentine's Day. You were pulling up from three. You were spin moving in the lane against Kobe and the Lakers. It was watching someone be in bloom. And to know that that was who you are on the court and off the court, you were managing essentially like a version of sports puberty in front of everybody.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:36Pablo Torre?

  Is this paradox that explains why this story is still, it still feels unsettled, or at least it felt unsettled until this Knicks finals run.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:47Pablo Torre?

  Because one of the people who was actually, it turns out, going through something like puberty at the time himself, who was an enormous fan of you, was Karl-Anthony Towns.

• 40:59Speaker 06

  I want to give a shout out to Jeremy Lin because he originally made me a Knicks fan. And that made me at Modell's.

• 41:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, I have so much love for Jeremy Lin. He's one of my favorite Knicks of all time, one of my favorite players of all time. He made me so passionate about the Knicks. And it's crazy now that I'm in this position. I'm in this chair talking to you as a Knicks player. And Derek showed me the other day of Jeremy on social. And my outfit was going to be a Karl-Anthony Towns jersey. I'm a big supporter of that.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  But I definitely need to get his jersey.

• 41:29Speaker 06

  For him to even mention me was was kind of crazy because I the love I have for him and what he's done for me and my Knicks fandom is second to none.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  It's honestly incredible because when, out of the blue, he showed up like two years ago, wearing like a Lin Sanity shirt. And so I'm getting text messages and screenshots and I'm like, that is so random. Like, he's not, he's not part Asian.

• 41:58Pablo Torre?

  I was shocked. I was shocked that we were in community with Karl-Anthony Towns. I'm like, yo, I didn't know he was one of us.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  I didn't believe it, right? Like, the initial part was like, I don't know, like, he's not like, he couldn't really be a fan, you know? And and then I was like, but I think he is. He's rocking my shirt. So then we had a little bit of an exchange on social and whatever. A couple of years go by and then I'm like, I gotta show some love back. And so I'm, I get his jersey. And then this clip comes out and I'm like, when I'm listening to him talk, I'm really, I'm really like, no, I made a difference in his life. And that's, that's like, it kind of like, it's shocking for me. I'm like, I almost can't believe it.

• 42:41Pablo Torre?

  Well, we had to go and find his tweets. We had to dig him up because we have, like, the first one here is from February 23, 2012, and he says, having no school is awesome. Get to watch Jeremy Lin highlights over and over again. Then March 31, 2012, can't believe Jeremy Lin is hurt. Hashtag all caps, Knicks season over. And then July 5, 2012, nooo, all caps, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, Jeremy Lin is leaving my Knicks, exclamation point, exclamation point, hashtag sad day for the Knicks, hashtag need him as a knickerbocker. Those three tweets, insanity, your injury, the Rockets thing we just described, he was going through that in real time.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:26Pablo Torre?

  And when I think of Towns and I think of your story, what you just traced the arc of, this relationship you had with your parents and particularly your mom,

• 43:37Pablo Torre?

  and this search for identity and frankly, trying to prove your toughness.

• 43:44Pablo Torre?

  That's the story of Karl Towns, too.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:48Pablo Torre?

  Someone who lost his mom during COVID. Someone who, his, his, his voice, people made fun of it. This guy's trying to pretend like he's Kobe, like he's, like he's tougher than he is.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:59Pablo Torre?

  And I was thinking to myself, that is, whether you realize it or not, that is also your trajectory and your journey.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  The thing is like,

• 44:12Speaker 01

  what is toughness? What is strength? What is manliness? Like toughness is just different than what society really describes as toughness. And to me, it's like Karl-Anthony Towns is soft. Karl-Anthony Towns doesn't play defense. You can't win with Karl-Anthony Towns. But the guy is rewriting his narrative every year. It's just, are you paying attention? Right? Like, this is not the first time that Kat has risen to the occasion. He's done that in the past against the best players. Right? And, and he, his series against Jokic, there's been multiple bigs where

• 44:54Speaker 01

  when it comes time to it, he rises to the occasion and he's doing that with Wemby right now. But it's also him anchoring the defense. It's also him in the locker room and you're, or him on the, in, in the timeouts. And him and the soundbites that you are now getting to hear because he's mic'd up because of the NBA Finals.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  Until the offense catches up, we gotta keep playing defense this way. We're at 34% for them. We gotta keep playing defense this way. This will win us the game. Our offense will always catch up. It did in game one in Cleveland. We'll be fine.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  His ability to be able to do these things is very different than the super loud rah rah, I'm in your face. And the clickbait or social things where it's like, you know, I'm getting in fights and what, it, it's different, right? So he has this inner strength and this inner toughness and this quiet confidence. But that doesn't make him less confident. Then the person that's like, ah, that's more expressive about it. You know, that's what takes time to be able to see. Kat is extremely strong. Kat is extremely tough. And Kat rises to the occasion and he has been doing that. And that's why he's so successful. And now he's getting the credit that he deserves.

• 46:02Pablo Torre?

  Well, it reminds me, this larger point about like, there is toughness as defined by what someone overcame in their personal life, in privacy, that no one else from the outside ever knew or appreciated, because it is personal to them. Whether it's the death of your mother, as Karl Towns experienced, whether it's you overcoming the specific beats of your story that we've just outlined. I have a soft spot, I think, for people who others thought they could bully, they could push around, who not only end up being great on the court,

• 46:45Pablo Torre?

  but also emerge on the other side of it, super introspective and even more confident in what it means to be vulnerable. Like, that's the story of this team, too.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  I love Kat and what he's saying, too. Like, right now, how he's answering those questions.

• 47:04Speaker 06

  I don't want to sound sugarcoating or anything like that, but Shaq, you know, you would know what I'm saying. I don't know what it was, but I just felt a calm and a peace that, I don't know, had to become from the woman above. So I felt really confident about today. I felt good. You know, I felt like a kid. It felt like, it was just fun out here. This is something that, as a kid, you always dream about. You always hope that you just hope to be an NBA player, let alone to be in the NBA Finals. And all day, it was just a weird feeling. It felt like I was a kid getting ready to go play my Saturday AAU games and Sunday AAU games. And in a way, I felt like I was seeing her in the stands.

• 47:48Speaker 06

  And it was just, it was fun. It was really fun and it was really comforting.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  I'm just like, how can you not root for this guy? How can you not root for this guy? How can you not root for this Knicks team, too? Like...

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Brunson gave up $113 million. That's not a normal thing, guys. Like, that's not talked about enough, you know? It's like, he put his money where his mouth is to assemble a team of people that... You know, he could have better stats if he doesn't give up $113 million and he shoots even more shots, right? Like, I know he's getting a lot of shots, but I'm just saying, it could be even more. Like, Kat sacrificing his stats and his shot attempts and his points to be able to do that. Mikal Bridges had a bigger role in other places and was able to do more. And now he's kind of at the whim of when the ball gets swung to me and when I touch it. And last night, game three, I don't touch it as much, so I only get like, you know, four shot attempts. It's just, this team, how can you not root for this team?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  That is winning culture, that is winning stuff. Whether they win the championship or not is one thing, but that doesn't mean that they don't have winning habits and winning culture. And that doesn't mean that they're not... They're extremely, extremely tough, and I love everything about these Knicks.

• 49:02Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I love that you, without even you getting on television and screaming it, that you're also just a through line here, that you're part of the connective tissue that connected Karl Towns to this team as a fan that showed the Garden that this place can be better, it can be louder, it can be more intimidating. And now you get to actually be there in person. It's just, look, part of what I was always trying to do when I was covering you was figure out, like, what is the best ending to this story? And I think the one that you envisioned, the one that I envisioned, it had you staying here in New York the whole time.

• 49:46Pablo Torre?

  But what this is instead, in the way that, of course, none of us could predict, it's just poetic in its own way.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 49:54Pablo Torre?

  And it's cosmic in its own way.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 49:56Pablo Torre?

  I didn't realize, I've covered you since [bleep] 2010. And if you were to tell me that in 2026, this conversation would feel like it was meant to be in its own way, I would not have believed that either.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Would I have loved to stay on the Knicks? Yeah, you know, longer and blah, blah, blah, blah. There's a, there was kind of, as you said, our dream of what it would look like. But this is the perfect ending to that chapter in a sense of... Our lives are always meant to kind of progress and evolve. Can we go to places? Can all humans go to places and leave it better than when we first got there? And pass the torch? We were never meant to kind of just go to places, do things, and that's the peak and that's the end. Like, we all evolve. And so your goal is to leave a place better than when you got there and to continue to pass the torch. And everything in life is about loving other people, serving the next generation, preparing the world,

• 50:55Speaker 01

  and preparing the next crop of young people. There were so many Knicks legends that did what they did. They built MSG and the Knicks to what it was. I was able to be a very small part of that story. And hopefully, I left it better than when I got there. And now they're continuing to take this Knicks franchise further than we could ever have taken it. And because of that, we get to heal along the way. Like, it is extremely, extremely poetic. And in many ways, it is so unifying in a very divisive, hostile time in society, in this world. But when it comes to the Knicks, we are one. And that is beautiful.

• 51:32Pablo Torre?

  Jeremy Lin, I just want to thank you for being a way better quote than you used to be.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Thanks for the patience, man. Thanks for the patience. Thanks for being in my corner. It only took 16 years.

• 51:53Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.

• 51:59Pablo Torre?

  And I'll talk to you next time.

• 52:20Speaker 05

  State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier. We'll have room for- Fried cookies. OK, you never overspend on food. What's your deal?

• 52:28Speaker 02

  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free and no activation fees.

• 52:36Speaker 05

  Free phone? Oh, sign me up.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Get that more for your money feeling, only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available with Metro T-Mobile in the past 180 days. Guessing is for game shows, not your business.

• 52:54Speaker 03

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