The Sporting Class: Private Equity, Salary Caps and Whether Players Should Want a Piece

Franchise valuations are booming. How can labor benefit? David Samson and Domonique Foxworth consider the everyday union worker — from Aaron Rodgers and Kawhi Leonard to a fireman and his pension — in going up against the "monsters of capitalism." • Subscribe to "Nothing Personal with David Samson" https://pod.link/1483011704 • Subscribe to "The Domonique Foxworth Show" https://pod.link/1642566714 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  We're not doing a political debate where you have to spin bull that we all know is bull. We can be honest about this situation, David.

• 0:14Pablo Torre?

  Right after this.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star Trust Pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:46Speaker 03

  With a Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 1:12Pablo Torre?

  Ready to upgrade your PC? The Dell Top Tech Event is here. And you can skip the research because independent tech experts already did it. Dell has laptops, desktops, and monitors that have been tested, reviewed, and named a winner by the publishers you trust. So instead of spending hours researching, you get a short list that's already proven. Take the Dell XPS 13 Laptop. Built for those who want better. Whether you're studying, working, or just getting things done, its thin and light design makes it easy to take anywhere. It has a touchscreen you'll love using, a battery built to last through your busiest days, and impressive performance powered by Intel Core Processors. That's the thing about the Dell Top Tech Event. The experts already found the winners. All

• 1:54Pablo Torre?

  that's left is finding yours. While shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Shop the winners now at dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 2:21Pablo Torre?

  All right, this is what we gotta do. We gotta, we gotta, we gotta now all pretend that we like each other.

• 2:25Speaker 04

  We're all professionals. We're ready to go when you are.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  No, it's just as entertaining if I

• 2:29Pablo Torre?

  Okay.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  If I treat you like I don't like you.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  I do actually like you. That's why I'm still here.

• 2:37Pablo Torre?

  I appreciate that. I sincerely, apologies. We're now taping.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Start the show.

• 2:42Pablo Torre?

  Okay, we're rolling, we're rolling, we're rolling.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Start the show.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  See, technical issues happen. It's the communication that's bothering me.

• 2:48Pablo Torre?

  I agree. I am somebody who would love technical issues more if I could make it into content, and unfortunately, that is impossible because no one's gonna know what we just, we just did.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  All right, well then start it. And watch me and Dave pretend like we're happy.

• 3:02Pablo Torre?

  I hope we don't start with that.

• 3:21Pablo Torre?

  If you have ever woken up tired and sore, this one is for you. Because there are few things that set you up for success, like a good night's sleep. And the best way to ensure a good night's sleep is with a mattress fit to your own personal habits. Which is why this year, I decided to upgrade my setup with the Helix Dusk Elite mattress. And it has been a game changer. Since switching, I have genuinely noticed better sleep. I fall asleep faster. I stay asleep longer. And I wake up feeling way more ready for the day. And part of what made me pick Helix is that it is not one size fits all. They've got over 20 different mattress models. So you can really find something tailored to how you sleep. And they have a handy quiz tool on their website. So you can match a mattress specifically to your needs. So whether your issue is temperature, or back

• 4:06Pablo Torre?

  pain, or motion transfer, Helix has the perfect mattress for you. Plus, they offer a 120-night sleep trial and limited lifetime warranty. So rest easy with the Happy with Helix Guarantee. A risk-free, customer-first experience designed to ensure that you are completely satisfied with your new mattress. So go to helixsleep.com/ptfo for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/ptfo for 30% off your Helix mattress. helixsleep.com/ptfo. The reason I'm doing this episode of the Sporting Class with David Sampson and Dominique Foxworth is because this question that started almost as this joke that got dismissed by

• 4:48Pablo Torre?

  everybody around, could Kawhi Leonard get a piece of the team he signed with? When he was a free agent in 2019, he asked the Lakers for it. They laughed at him. And eventually, the NBA investigated it because Uncle Dennis Robertson said, I want a piece of the team. And everybody said, players cannot get pieces of teams. But then over time, we've seen lots of players repeatedly go back to that question. Jalen Brown asking the question to Bloomberg in January 2026, when can players ever get a piece of a team?

• 5:19Speaker 05

  I think players should be able to invest alongside in ownership groups and business opportunities. Like, I don't understand why that's ever been a thing. But it's like, your athlete and this, they make it seem like, you know, they can control how much wealth or growth that you could actually accumulate. I think that's wrong. I also think that, just like any other major corporation, like when you are, if you work for Apple, or if you work for Nike, or if you work for anywhere, like if you're a CEO, if you're someone that's been on the board for a large amount of time, you get equity in the company at some point. Like, you are a part of it. And I think athletes should be looked at

• 6:01Speaker 05

  in the same way. Like, you played for the Celtics for 20 years. Like, you should get, you should get a piece of equity into, because you helped accumulate the growth.

• 6:12Pablo Torre?

  Apparently, Dominique, in the NFL, you may recall Caleb Williams, right? And his dad, they wanted a piece of the team that was gonna draft him. That was a big part of their request. And so Domonique Foxworth, for people who don't know, former president of the NFLPA, the player president, and then an executive, the COO of the NBPA. Was this a real desire when you were running unions?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Of course, it's a real desire to have some sort of equity. And I think you could make a lot of players and people will make comparisons to Fortune 500 companies or any company, startups. You often get compensation packages that include some equity in the business that you, where you work. And that makes sense. I understand that. I'm sure the players would feel the same way. The, the challenge, I think, here is that they frame it as an opportunity to get equity, but it's really an opportunity to invest, which then like, gets complicated and problematic, especially when you are collectively bargaining the compensation packages between the two. Like, it's a, it's a tangled web. And I'm not even sure it's a smart investment for someone like, I'm not some sort of investment

• 7:20Speaker 01

  guru, but diversification is important. It'd be weird to have all your salary come from one place. And then also, have all your investment be tied to the same things that impact your salary.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  It's very common, though, Dominique. That's how Wall Street, that's how finance works, where you get stock.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  I don't disagree with that. I guess the point I'm making is, there's a difference between being awarded it as a part of your compensation package, and what the NBA players have negotiated for is the opportunity to invest in private equity funds that then invest in the NBA. That's entirely different than being compensated by. And it's, it would be tantamount to someone getting paid a bunch of money to work somewhere and then taking a big portion of that money and using that to then invest in the place that you're working. It's slightly different.

• 8:12Speaker 04

  So this is where we, you may have lost me, Dominique, because I thought the rules were that players could invest in a private equity fund as long as the equity fund's investment in teams was not a control piece.

• 8:23Pablo Torre?

  As of, as of 2023 in the NBA, the CBA allows for this arrangement, which I want to clarify, which is NBA Players Association can buy a share of NBA teams through an approved private equity firm, which is separate, and an evolution, Dominique, from what the original, I think, demand was, which is I individually, Caleb Williams, Kawhi Leonard, Jalen Brown, I want a piece of the franchise.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Right. I'm just saying that that's not a win in negotiations. It's not an actual win in negotiations in a way that it's being framed. Being awarded a portion of the equity of a franchise as a, tied to like your compensation package is different from being allowed to give them your money. So you can invest alongside them. It's entirely different.

• 9:11Pablo Torre?

  David, have players that you've heard from in the past made that request? Give us a piece of the Marlins, which you were the team president of?

• 9:19Speaker 04

  When we're talking salaries with them, they're always interested in ways to make more money. In a non-salary cap league, we don't have the salary cap circumvention issues. There's luxury tax issues that I never had to deal with because I was never close to it. But when players ask for that, my answer was, league rules state that you cannot be a minority owner of a team. So if you want a piece of a team, then you have to stop playing. And it turns out that that was never a trade that any player wanted to make. Because they realized that they'd make more money playing for the team than by giving us money to, to pay other players. But if you're asking whether I think players should be able to

• 10:04Speaker 04

  own parts of a team that they play on, I have no objection to that. Because it would be a arms-length transaction where the owners would have a valuation that a player would have to agree to, as any limited partner investor has to agree to. And limited partners in general, under agreements, do not have power in who gets traded, who gets signed. They literally are just limited partners, mostly for tax reasons and cocktail party reasons. So if that is something that players would bargain, my position has always been, I would give that. Because I think that I would get a lot of other things that would be way more meaningful to me in a CBA negotiation. When it comes to the debt service rule, when

• 10:47Speaker 04

  it comes to the luxury tax threshold, when it comes to a salary cap, when it comes to pension, which is a huge issue that Dominique can speak about, that, that is mind-numbing, but is a critically important financial issue. But if I were to get wins on those, just in return for allowing a player to write a check to be a partner in a team, that's a trade I would make.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  I mean, you should make that trade without even getting wins. Like, if you get wins on top of it, it's a double win. Like, I do not view this as a successful option for the players. Like, players can find things to invest in that are just as attractive and as lucrative as investing in teams that they play for. And then you compound it by the, one of the challenges when I was at the basketball union was, the basketball players, there's such a big gap between who they are in the league and who they are in this world. And the guys that are at the top of the NBA, sometimes they feel like their interests align more with ownership. So it makes it really difficult to have negotiations when you're trying to represent an entire body.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  But there's a group, and not an insignificant-sized group, but certainly a disproportionately powerful-sized group, that sees some of these things and are like, yeah, actually, this over here, that's good for them, that's actually better for me. And now you can make it even more overt, where it's like, yeah, my franchise value that I now own a stake in through this private equity company, that franchise value is directly tied to the amount of salary I have to pay out. You know what helps push the salary down and push up my franchise value? If we negotiate a deal that limits the amount of money that players can actually make. And so it's a short-term loss, maybe I lose a little bit now, for a long-term gain because

• 12:41Speaker 01

  the franchise value goes through the roof. So I don't love it. I don't love it as an option. It doesn't feel like a win.

• 12:46Pablo Torre?

  David, this is really funny to me because what I'm finding out is something I did not expect, which is that both of you kind of agree, which is that this is something in which the players are seeking "the win," quote-unquote, of getting to pay the owners' money for a share of your team. And the question, then, is why does it feel like a win to them? And Dominique is explaining that at the highest levels, a superstar might think, I need to be able to get what owners have. But David, your view on why players want that is what?

• 13:16Speaker 04

  I think there's some confusion here, and you'll help me here. When Jalen Brown talks about a equity stake in the Boston Celtics, I do not believe he was saying, what is the value of the team and I want 1% and I will put 1% in? What I think Jalen Brown is confused about is, does he want to be granted shares in a team? Or does he want to pay market value or have the right to pay market value for shares in the team? I was under the impression he wanted, as part of his comp, the ability, under the cap, to be awarded shares in the team. I did not think that he was crying out to buy at market value shares of the team.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  So there's two conversations happening. There's one thing that can actually be done and was negotiated in the CBA, and then there's another thing that it seems like I believe Jalen Brown and players like him would like. And so being granted shares as a part of your compensation, I'm all for that. That's fine. That's consistent with what people do in many businesses that you were pointing out. The other thing is the thing that they actually have the ability to do, which I don't think benefits them at all, is that they have the ability to give their money to a private equity firm who will then invest in these teams at what the fair market value is. To me, that's not a benefit.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  These leagues are looking to increase franchise value, and we keep finding that it's harder and harder for them to find pools of money big enough to buy their team. They'd be delighted if some of their money that they paid you in salary went back to supporting private equity firms that will then increase their franchise value. And then you compound that by, it also benefits the owners by, if the players are actively involved in their investment, they know that they have the ability to negotiate on the other side against the biggest cost. The biggest cost. So the biggest cost is the labor. It's the players.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  So if there is a player or there are players who recognize that their franchise value will go through the roof if they're able to limit the amount of money that the players can make, but they might make a little, a few million less this year, but their franchise value will triple, then they are incentivized in these negotiations to be like, eh, I don't know, I don't really care that much about that. That money's fine, whatever they offer is fine. Oh, you want to cap it? Yeah, let's cap it because I'll be an NBA player for 15 years, I'll be an owner of an NBA team for 60.

• 16:04Pablo Torre?

  What you guys seem to agree on, in the end, is that the granting of equity to superstar players is of less interest to both the union and the teams, which you both are representing respectively, Dominique and...

• 16:14Speaker 01

  No. No, no, no, no, no. You can reframe it the way that you want. Like, I don't think that it's of less interest to the union. I think it's super unlikely to be agreed upon on the team. Like, I think the union and the players would be happy to accept equity as part of compensation.

• 16:31Pablo Torre?

  But you think that it's very obvious that David would fight, and owners would fight so hard that it's not realistically worth bringing to the table above other issues?

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Right. Because here's the question. Think about this. If you're granted equity in the Celtics and then you get traded to the Sixers. So the way it happens when you trade a player now is that player's removed from your organization, and you then are added to the roster of the next organization. But if you have shares of JP Morgan, because you worked at JP Morgan, and then you leave JP Morgan, you keep your shares of stock in JP Morgan that have vested. So you get those shares that are part of your net worth, and then you move on to your next company. Sports, to me, is very different because when you own a share of JP Morgan stock, you are not in any way involved in anything once you leave.

• 17:20Speaker 04

  If Jalen Brown owned a share of the Celtics and is now an active player of the Sixers, I, as a team operator, would have an issue with that because he would have access, as a limited partner, depending on the agreement, he could have access to things about the Celtics that there would be a concern that would then be shared with the Sixers. There's just all sorts of conflicts that exist, and there's ways to deal with it in the Wall Street world, fewer ways to deal with it in the sports world.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Well, those seem like small hurdles that could be addressed. Like, those things, we could invent ways to deal with it. Whether it's worth our time to discuss, because I think we both agree that it's probably a pretty unrealistic possibility, but it's not hard to figure out mechanisms that would...

• 18:07Pablo Torre?

  But I think, to your point, the question really is, though, is Wall Street all that different from sports when it comes to how these businesses should be behaving?

• 18:16Speaker 04

  Yes. So let me try another way. There are pension plans, non-uniform pension plan in baseball and a uniform pension plan. The non-uniform pension plan gets no attention. It's a NUP for short, but that's the pension plan I'm in. And you vest over time, when you're in the league for 10 years, it gets capped, whatever the case may be. When you get granted shares of a public company, which are stock options that are given to employees, when you have an employee-owned company, what you're doing is not giving operational control of that company. You're not giving board seats of that company to your employees.

• 18:59Speaker 04

  You are giving them potential sharing of upside and worth. Players are ready, get that. It is not the case on Wall Street or at your local rental car company that when the stock price goes up, if you do not own shares of stock, your salary does not go up in lockstep with the revenue of the rental car company. In sports, because of the union and the CBA, in a capped league, and even in baseball, frankly, as revenue goes up, salaries are going up in lockstep. And our view is always, that is a big enough concession where it is like players have a vested interest in the health of the underlying team.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  But they obviously don't.

• 19:43Speaker 04

  But I disagree.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  I mean, it's...

• 19:44Speaker 04

  They obviously do. Look at what, Jalen Brown will make more money in one year than Walt Frazier made in his career. So, and there's crappy players on the end of the bench in the NBA because of the salary cap. I call them the Concacs. The Concacs are players who are so overpaid because teams have to...

• 20:03Pablo Torre?

  You're referring to John Conchak.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  Yes. Listen, if you don't get the reference, Google it and just let's move on.

• 20:09Pablo Torre?

  A seven-foot-tall white guy who was a scrub, is what you're saying.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Hmm, so disrespectful.

• 20:14Speaker 04

  And he got a huge contract, totally overpaid. And in a salary cap league, there's a floor. And NBA, because of that floor, you've got end-of-bench players right now making millions of dollars more than they were previously because the salary cap has gone up so much. And that's been a huge benefit to a large part of that union, Dominique, in my opinion.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Right, I get it. And the salary cap is tied to basketball-related revenue. Basketball-related revenue is something that can be, that can be and has been manipulated in the past, and the growth of the franchise values is absurd, to the degree that it's not connected at all to the growth in the salaries of the players.

• 21:02Speaker 04

  Because players don't deserve a share of ego premium. That's just not something, employees don't get that either. If there is a value in a company that is...

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Can we stop for one second? When you start getting into "deserved," while we also are talking about something that is negotiated based on, like, power and leverage, it's like, are you saying they don't deserve it just like...

• 21:30Speaker 01

  It's like in the same way that you would say that I, as a football player, don't deserve baseball money, or you're saying they don't deserve it because they're not connected to it, which is where we disagree, is they are connected to the ego premium that other owners, that future owners are paying. They're paying in order to own these teams because these teams are cool because of these guys.

• 21:52Speaker 04

  Let me try another way with you, Dominique. When Disney does well, do you believe that it is your position when at ESPN that your annual bonus should go up in lockstep with Disney's share price or with their operating results? Do you go to that level and say, look at all the money that the company is making? I want to be paid more. Do you ever do that?

• 22:17Speaker 01

  No, because I'm not nearly as valuable to Disney as, you know, who does do that? Like a great filmmaker, when they come back, they're like, you know what? I'm not, I just made you a billion dollars in the last film. I'm going to negotiate for some level of ownership, some more control. Like they are in an uncapped system and it allows them to negotiate for everything that they want. The players are not.

• 22:43Pablo Torre?

  I think it's really interesting what David has said about ego premium, because it speaks to like why these teams are worth, in the Lakers' case, 12 and a half billion dollars. And all these records are being set over and over and over again. We're talking the same week where the Angels, the goddamn Angels, which went for $4 billion because Stan Kronke has connected, he's really collected all of the infinity stones. He has a team in every pro sports league now. And the question is why? Why are these things going up and therefore how can players, how can labor share in any of the boom that's happening? And so I want to calculate the dots here. When the NBPA in 2023 negotiates for the thing that Dominique is saying isn't really a win,

• 23:24Pablo Torre?

  as much as they framed it, right? Which is you have the right to buy through private equity a share of these booming valuations, ostensibly because they're booming, Dominique. It should be a win. But you're saying it's not because all you're doing is paying your boss the right to basically ride along without any of the control. Is that a?

• 23:45Speaker 04

  But you're getting it on the other side, though, when you're a player.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  I'm saying that, once you pay me my salary as a basketball player, I can choose to do whatever I want with that salary. There are plenty of investment opportunities that are as attractive or even more attractive than the NBA. And also it'd be wise for you to separate your investment, as far as diversification is concerned, to separate your investment portfolio from where your salary is coming from, just in case something goes wrong. All I'm saying is that is not a win. If you're looking at investment in the coldest way possible, as far as like rate of return is concerned,

• 24:28Speaker 01

  you can find other places that would have the same risk and the same rate of return, or a higher risk and a higher rate of return, or lower risk and lower rate of return. You can find all of these things without being able to get back into the NBA. I'm saying what they negotiated for is not really anything new or different. It's the opportunity to invest your money in a probably more risky situation by product of the fact that you are already getting salary from there. It's not a benefit. If you, if I forget that it's an NBA team at all, just take it out of my mind, and I'm investing based on the prospects that this will be successful.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  I can find some other business with the same like potential. This is not a benefit. This is a benefit for the teams.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  Well, hold on. I think you have to mention to people that when players have the right to invest in a private equity fund, that fund is not solely investing in a sports team. That fund has a diversified portfolio. You are investing in that fund to get your ROI that's based on all of the funds underlying investments, of which a team happens to be one of them. Really, that rule was put into place simply to open up a alternate, it's really called an alternative investment. You look at stocks, equities, bonds, fixed income, and then you've got alternative investments. And private equity is an alternative investment. And what the players were saying is, we're making so much money,

• 26:00Speaker 04

  which is their right, and I'm proud of them for doing it because it's so hard to do. We want to be able to invest in all three asset categories. And they previously had not been allowed to invest in that third asset category if that category had an investment in a team. All the NBA did is say, hey, if they happen to invest in a team, you're still eligible to put your hard-earned money into that investment portfolio.

• 26:33Pablo Torre?

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card. With Apple Card, you earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases, like groceries, or merch, or tickets to the game. Plus, it can be used anywhere MasterCard is accepted. No matter your team, no matter where you shop, Apple Card is here to help you tackle game day. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 27:06Speaker 06

  Guessing is for game shows, not your business. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT, with AI grounded in your context to get work done and done right. It's a new workday.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  With a Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 27:52Pablo Torre?

  But just to clarify, because it's Caleb Williams, it's Jalen Brown, it's Aaron Rodgers, by the way. Aaron Rodgers, when he was a free agent, he apparently, according to Pro Football Talk in 2023, asked the Jets, hey, I'm not even interested in salary, give me equity. The reason, to expel it all out, the reason is because $1 of salary is less valuable than the percentage point equivalent of equity in a team because of the way that all of these teams are booming in value.

• 28:19Speaker 04

  It's actually, you have to understand, the number of people who could say that are only people who have enough money where they don't need cash now. If you do not need cash, it is always better to get paid in stock. Always. The people who end up getting taken advantage of, the employees who get taken advantage of, are those who need money to live, or money to buy their home, or money to pay their whatever, you know, debt they have, because they will take money, and then they don't want to share in the upside, because you have to give something up to share in that upside. And what you give up is current day dollars. So what Aaron Rodgers was asking for, it makes sense.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  Give me the equivalent of $10 million in the team as its value today. You don't have to give me 10 million in cash because I don't need it to live, and then I think the team will go up in value, so my 10 million will become more as though I had taken your 10 million cash and invested it in some other way that had the same rate of return as a professional sports team. That's all. It's just math.

• 29:25Pablo Torre?

  Even if it was the Jets, all of that is still true.

• 29:28Speaker 04

  All boats rise with the tide.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Well, only in these American leagues that exist as legal cartels. And part of the reason why the tide continues to rise is because the players do not have the freedom to negotiate for larger salaries that would maybe make some of the boats not rise.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  It's not right. They do.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  It is 100% right.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  They do have the right to bargain it. They just don't have the stomach or the career longevity to get it.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  It's like saying that you could dunk if you just really focused on it.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  No, I can only dunk if you lower the basket.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Literally, you have all the muscles that need, that you need to get it dunked.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  That's the only way I could ever dunk, or if you got me a ladder.

• 30:13Pablo Torre?

  Given that David Samson is currently sitting in a giant baseball glove, I think, I think he has a point.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So, fine, you could hit 350 in Major League Baseball if only you would concentrate. There's nothing about you that means that you can't do it. Other than in realistic circumstances is you do not have that ability. Like, it's the same thing. When you throw that out there, like, I know that's a talking point that, that owners and the, like, the management class use, but we all know, like, we all know it's not real. It's not, it's not real.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  You're simply asking for sympathy because there are certain things in collective bargaining that you know you can't get. There are certain things that I know on our side we can't get either.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  I'm not asking for sympathy. I just feel like we should have, I feel like we should just have an honest conversation. Like, if we're talking about what people deserve and what they need and what they should be able to negotiate for, like, we have to be honest about the parameters that exist.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  I've never been in a negotiation without parameters. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm the only one. Every time I negotiate anything, there are parameters that each side has. There are different objectives that each side has. There's different points of view. There's different investment horizons and strategies. It's always that way in a negotiation, and you come to an agreement or you don't. And with players, the reason why, more times than not, you come to an agreement that favors ownership is the same reason why airplane pilots and teachers and flight attendants and other unionized workers constantly say, we get the low end, the short end of the stick with every bargaining that we do with management.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  It's not just in sports.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  I get, I get that. But sports is unique in that when you named all those places, no disrespect to any of them, they are not as unique or as valuable as individuals as some of these players are.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  I love this argument. I love this argument.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  It's not an argument, it's a fact.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  We're players. We are so unique that we couldn't, you couldn't live without us. Teachers, screw them. We have 25 people ready to take your place, so we're not going to give you anything. That's not how it works.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  This is not, we don't, we're not doing a political debate where you have to spin bull that we all know is bull. We can be honest about this situation, David. Everyone in the world who's tried to play basketball, they're only... 300 of them at any given time that are good enough to be there. Like, this is a true thing. It's not the same thing for like, and whether we want to be, we can pretend that we value teachers as much as we do athletes, but we don't. Like, it's the, the revenue and you, someone who like defaults to capitalism all, uh, quite often as a defense for this, recognize that these players are generating an amount of revenue that teachers and autoworkers and other people aren't.

• 33:05Speaker 04

  That's why they get paid so much.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Agreed. I agree. But they have a restriction that the other people don't. That's all I'm saying. And like they're, these athletes are closer to entertainers than anything else. And those entertainers who also exist in unions also exist in an uncapped system. That's all I'm saying. We don't have to argue it. I'm just stating a fact and you are making these kind of disingenuous arguments in order to undercut the things that me and Pablo and you and all of us actually know are true.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  I would just say, just because I disagree with something doesn't make it disingenuous.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  I'm saying the thing that we all know to be true and whether we want to admit it or not, us as a society. So like, you can all look at me and say, you're evil, mean person who believe this. I don't believe it. I look at the TV. I look at the bank accounts. I look at the behaviors of all of us. We all value the entertainer more than we do the service worker. Should we? Probably not, but we do. And they also provide, create, generate more value.

• 34:04Speaker 04

  I've always make the argument that there is a free market system and Dominique will say it's not free because it's so constrained by labor and by CBAs. But in a system where no one would pay to watch a teacher, teacher, a lawyer, uh, be a lawyer, people pay to watch athletes be athletes. And they pay to watch entertainers sing or act. And that's why they get paid more. But what you're missing is that there are a whole level of entertainers who do entertain, but don't get paid nearly. The difference in pay between the top and bottom in movies is the same as in teachers and lawyers. Where it's different is in a

• 34:46Speaker 04

  capped league like basketball, where the minimum salary is, is a life-changing amount for anybody. There, there are more people in SAG-AFTRA, Dominique, and you know this, who have to have three jobs because they don't make enough to live.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  I believe that you are accustomed to having too many conversations with stupid people. It's because like, we both know that there are a bunch of people in this world who play basketball or baseball or football at various levels. Those people don't get compensated. Like, the structure is, is almost identical to that of entertainers. The difference is, there is no cap on the top of the entertainers, which is fine. I'm just confused why we're having an argument on something that's a fact. Like, you and I don't have to debate whether a cap should exist or shouldn't exist.

• 35:42Pablo Torre?

  Separate episode, by the way, about the salary cap in baseball and everywhere else.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Whether you should be able to get equity in a team or not. We don't have to debate those things because they're facts. Like, you trying to create this argument as if you're gonna trick me into believing that these are somehow different. Like, is, that's confusing to me.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  I would never try to trick you, Dominique, so that, no, you're way too smart for that. But I was merely trying to point out that the sympathy, when Jalen Brown, I guess it goes back to Jalen Brown, he gets in front of a microphone and he proffers an argument that is totally self-serving, quite obviously. And it applies to maybe out of all the players in the NBA, are there 30 of them? Maybe one, 32, one, 14?

• 36:27Pablo Torre?

  Fewer, probably.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  Probably fewer. And, and what he's trying to do is appeal to the senses of the everyman who says, wow, that's not fair. You're right, Jalen Brown. And I'm merely giving you the other side, which is, I don't believe that he should be arguing that to a public who in general will watch that and then try to elicit sympathy for that. That's all.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Right. I, I agree that he's not gonna elicit sympathy. I'm not sure that he's trying to elicit sympathy, but I think that's an irrelevant conversation. Like, you and I both know what we're talking about. We don't have to talk about how other people are going to interpret it. And that's where it gets hard for me when you start saying that they like exist in a free market as if the draft doesn't exist, as if there aren't limitations on rookie pay. Like, even in the uncapped sport of baseball, there are limitations on the amount that you can earn.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Thank God.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  There are limitations on what you can earn. So let's not pretend like they aren't. Those limitations don't exist in other fields and they shouldn't. That's all.

• 37:25Speaker 04

  If the players' union cared, then that, it would be a bigger issue at bargaining.

• 37:29Pablo Torre?

  Well, so let's, this is, but, but, but.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  No, it's not about the players.

• 37:32Pablo Torre?

  No, no, no, no. But this is, this is why, this, the, no, but the reason this all feels like a political argument, and it all feels like a appeal to sympathy is because in real life, when these things are being bargained at the table and the threat of, well, we're not gonna work, we're not gonna play the games, and the audience has to say to themselves, wait a minute, is that real? Are we gonna lose our favorite thing? And will the teams that own these assets gonna say, then we gotta give the players what they want? All of that is happening in the public realm simultaneous to the private. And so that's why this all feels perpetually like it is about sympathy.

• 38:15Pablo Torre?

  This episode is brought to you by ONNIT. You know those days where it's back-to-back meetings, a deadline you're already behind on, and somehow you still have to be present for family time after work? That's basically every Tuesday for me. And on days like that, I reach for AlphaBrain. AlphaBrain is a daily nootropic formula designed to support cognition, memory, attention, focus, and mental clarity. It's not about some artificial jolt. It's about helping you tune out distractions and actually get into the zone when you're deep in a task, whether that's plowing through emails, finishing a project, or just trying to stay sharp through a packed day. What I've noticed is that it supports flow state,

• 38:59Pablo Torre?

  that feeling when you're locked in, fully engaged, and things just click. Plus, it helps with quicker reaction times and everyday concentration when there's a lot competing for your attention. And on the more stressful days, it supports AlphaBrain wave activity to help take the edge off. If your days look anything like mine, juggling work, workouts, kids, whatever's next, AlphaBrain is built for exactly that kind of day. Shop now at ONNIT.com. That's O-N-N-I-T dot com.

• 39:35Speaker 06

  State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier. We'll have room for fried cookies. Okay, you'd never overspend on food. What's your deal? What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy 837 5G for free and no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling. Only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro T-Mobile in the past 180 days.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 40:37Pablo Torre?

  So, in this last part of the show, when you're at a vending machine and the only difference is there's a sticker on it that has the NBA logo, I can't think of a better metaphor than what NBA Europe is than that. We're talking about this other thing that players, the NBPA is now saying, we wanna share in the revenues of. Because we, here in America, don't get it, but in NBA Europe, you're putting a sticker on a vending machine, and guess what? That sticker is actually our faces. You don't admit it, but that's us. So we should get a share of that.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  So just think about two things. One, if the fee they're saying is up to a billion dollars in some of the markets, and that fee is going to be paid, it is worth bargaining, and I assume it has been bargained, whether or not those fees that go to the NBA are in any way part of the revenue calculation that is shared with players. But there is a person who will invest a billion dollars to have an NBA Europe team in Paris, let's pretend. I can assure you that revenue that comes from that NBA team operating in Europe, broadcast deals, ticket sales, sponsorship sales, that's not gonna be shared with the

• 41:52Speaker 04

  NBA until they get to recoup their investment, that they get a return on their investment, that they are cash flow positive. Because NBA Europe, it's already come out that maybe three years until we're break even, as though they're celebrating that. Like with the WNBA, just because of the existence of Caitlin Clark doesn't make the league profitable overnight. Because to be profitable, you have to look at the history of the asset. You have to recoup your losses. So we are so far from NBA Europe actually impacting in a way that people are thinking in terms of NBA domestic revenue calculations.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's fine, and that's, could be true. I don't know, the insides, like, these leagues and teams have not always been honest about their projections. I don't know whether it's true or false. I don't think that matters.

• 42:46Speaker 04

  We're audited, Dominique. You know that. You have the audit right. It's so funny to me when the baseball union, I don't know about your union, so I don't wanna say, the baseball union, they have access to our financials. It's like a joke when they come out and say, that team's not losing money. I know that they're printing money. They've got our numbers. Sorry.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't speak to like, how much access the baseball teams have. Having someone audited is not the same as having the ability to see, like, there are, in your financials, there are categories, and in those categories, there are things. We don't get the ability to see everything in the category and what is actually represented. So like, that.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  There's, there's no, in an audit statement, which I know you've read, there are notes.

• 43:29Pablo Torre?

  But hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I, I, I, I think if I've, if I've.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  This is in the weeds. Sorry.

• 43:35Pablo Torre?

  So just on that, if I have learned anything from how it is that financial organizations and the people who run them. Keep track of where the money is going. I think there are quite a bit of things you can do to make it so that your auditor is just like...

• 43:50Speaker 01

  That's all I'm saying.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  Don't impugn the auditing community, Pablo.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no, forget it. That aside...

• 43:56Speaker 04

  Especially because our argument was when an auditor left Aspiration, it was a big deal. There was something afoot.

• 44:02Pablo Torre?

  Okay, hold on. I am always in favor of auditing the auditors. I just fear that we digress, Dominique, so please proceed.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess I was just saying that in order to set up this point is the performance of the franchise doesn't matter for the argument that I think the players are making. The argument that the players are making is that you're essentially using a value that we helped to create to launch a new endeavor. So like, either that that value should buy us a piece of that endeavor, or you should pay us for the value that we created. Like, that's what they're saying. It's like, up until this point, we thought that all of the excitement and interest and drama that we

• 44:49Speaker 01

  and athleticism and sacrifice that we were using was being used in order to sell this product here and make money that was considered basketball-related revenue. You're now looking to launch something else that's, you hope, will make you billions of more dollars on the backs of the things that we helped to create. We deserve some compensation for that. That seems fair.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  I'm only smiling because I'm picturing a franchisee of a McDonald's. When a new franchise opens, that the franchisee would call McDonald's and say, "Hey, Ray Kroc, it's because of my cooking of Quarter Pounders and how well my franchise does in Des Moines, I want a piece of your fee for opening a franchise in Albuquerque." It makes me laugh.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  You're not, you're not, you're not good at analogy. What you're saying right now is to pay money back to the franchise. Like, you're a franchisee, opening a new franchise in Europe. And the players are saying, the reason why this, why you want to open this new franchise in Europe is because this American one is so awesome. Why is this one awesome? Me. Like, that, that seems like a reasonable leap to make. It's like, hey, the only reason you can do that is because of what we did here. I deserve some of that. That's very different from McDonald's being huge and amazing in one little franchise in Des Moines saying, "Hey, guys, you know why you're so popular now across the world is because we killing it here in Iowa."

• 46:14Speaker 04

  I don't want to keep doing analogies with you, but I can, I have 10 more, but let me give you one last one. If you're good, if you create value in something because you're an orthopedic surgeon and you're part of a hospital, and that hospital does research and ends up being a worldwide leader in curing cancer, do you think the orthopedic surgeon, because he was so helpful to his hospital by being the best orthopedic surgeon, that he would definitionally get a piece of the "we just cured cancer" credit or financial pie?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  No, but if he was integral to them discovering that, there is no cap on what he can negotiate in his next deal. The next time he negotiates, there's nothing that says you cannot make any more money. He can go to all the different hospitals and say, "I'm the cancer curing guy."

• 47:05Speaker 04

  Because to you, you, all you do, and you accuse me of the same, so it's, it's good. You just go back to the cap. Everything to you goes back to the cap, which is fine.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know where else, if we're talking about money...

• 47:16Speaker 04

  I can give you 10 economic arguments. Let's give you one economic argument why the capped league, why are franchise valuations in the NBA and NFL so much higher than that of baseball, in your opinion?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Well, I mean...

• 47:29Speaker 04

  Because they're better sports?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Not, not, not only because they're better and more popular sports, but I do think that the existence of the cap probably being, being able to lock in cost structure for a period of time matters, yes.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  So you're locking in percentage of revenues, yes. And why franchise valuations are higher is because of the cap, among other reasons. And so in baseball, when they want a cap, if they get a cap, which I think they will, they will be able to show players that total player comp will be higher under a cap than it was without a cap. And your whole argument is, in an uncapped system, everybody will make more money. And we have just not found that to be the case.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  That's not my whole argument, and you know what I guess? Is I guess that if you believe that to be true, you would not be looking. So you want me to believe that these monsters of capitalism are looking for a system where they end up paying more money, right? That's how, that, that's, again, king of analogies.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  There will be more, listen, I'm telling you, with a cap and a floor, no matter where they agree to the cap and the floor, there will be more teams that have to spend more money to get to the floor than teams who have to spend less money because they're over the cap.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  So I'm looking at total player comp, not just one team's player comp.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  I just, I just want to make sure that we got this clear. And I don't, I don't even want to refute it. I just want it to be clear that you are trying to convince me that the owners of professional sports teams are looking to create a system where they pay more salary to players.

• 49:16Speaker 04

  They're looking for certainty.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Right, so...

• 49:18Speaker 04

  That's the difference. Cost certainty is different than cost cutting. It's, it's certainty. It's why players sign pre-arbitration deals. They want to take the uncertainty away.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  But it's more, right?

• 49:32Speaker 04

  The math, as it currently sits, would be more. That's not a talking point by the owners, that's just a math number.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. But, in the long term...

• 49:45Speaker 04

  Oh, in the long term, we got your ass, man. I mean, of course.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  That's all. That's all. That's all.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  If the clock weren't ticking, I wouldn't have delivered that to you, but it was just too important to get it out.

• 49:59Pablo Torre?

  I love you guys.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. The truth is always important to get out. We don't like, we don't like you.

• 50:08Speaker 04

  I do love Pablo, not today, though.

• 50:10Pablo Torre?

  I think if you play it out, if you play it out long enough, you both come back to liking me.

• 50:15Speaker 04

  We don't have that kind of...

• 50:17Speaker 01

  There's a love cap for me. There is a cap on the amount of people I'm willing to love. And you, yeah, you, I can't pay the luxury tax for you.

• 50:25Pablo Torre?

  David Samson, Domonique Foxworth. My affection for you, of course, as always, is constrained by nothing but the time we have together, and we're out of it. So, thanks for doing it.

• 50:44Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello. Studio engineering by RG Systems, sound design by Andrew Bersik, digital strategy by Bailey Carlin and Andrew Northern, theme song, as always, by John Bravo.

• 51:06Pablo Torre?

  And we'll talk to you next time.

• 51:19Speaker 07

  State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier. We'll have room for fried cookies. Okay, you'd never overspend on food. What's your deal?

• 51:27Speaker 06

  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy 837 5G for free and no activation fees.

• 51:35Speaker 07

  Free phone? Oh, sign me up.

• 51:38Speaker 06

  Get that more for your money feeling only on Metro by T-Mobile. Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available with Metro T-Mobile in the past 180 days.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  With a Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 52:13Speaker 06

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.