Resentment, Joy, and Why Moms Don't Believe They're Allowed Either

Most nights you replay the day and ask yourself one question: was my kid happy? Kate Bowler thinks that's the wrong question, and the right one might change how your whole day feels.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know that feeling when your brain is at full capacity, right? I mean, you have a reminder from the dentist in your email, a birthday party invitation on the fridge, and your kid just texted you about a soccer game they forgot to mention until that moment, and you just cannot remember one more thing.

• 0:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's where Skylight Calendar comes in. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google, Apple, and Outlook to help your whole family see the days and weeks ahead. And I really love the Tasks feature, which is designed to help your kid build routines around things like homework and chores. And when your kid can do those things independently, it's a huge win for everyone in the family. Skylight Calendar is so much more than just a calendar. It's something you can add to your routine to help your family work together. And right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/becky.

• 1:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T.com/becky for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. Myskylight.com/becky.

• 1:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Boundaries.

• 1:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Here's something I can't stop thinking about. We are a generation of parents who care so much about our kids' feelings. And to be clear, that's a good thing. We needed to do better than in the past. But somewhere along the way, I think we've overcorrected. We went from "kids' feelings don't matter" to "kids' feelings run the show." And those are two extremes, and we have to come toward the middle. Caring about your kids' feelings should not mean that their feelings are in charge of your decisions or your entire family. And I know how many families feel like that is the case. And I think it's one of the reasons why we're repeating ourselves all the time, negotiating everything, and honestly, just feeling so burnt out with this parenting thing, while our kids' behavior somehow feels more out of control than ever.

• 2:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We need boundaries. Now, not mean, cruel, harsh, punitive boundaries, not "because I said so" boundaries. Those aren't even boundaries, anyway. Boundaries are what lets you be connected to your kid and still, yeah, be in charge, because you should be as the leader in your home. This is why I built something totally new, perfect for the moment, right now. Boundaries for Behavior Change. It's a brand-new program, and I couldn't be more proud of it. It'll teach you exactly what boundaries are, how to set them in a way that actually works and creates behavior change that lasts. Find it at goodinside.com. I can't wait to see you there.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Always a good time to rediscover the sense that your life, before you were useful to anyone, you were already good.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Inside. Good inside. Good inside. Just reading all the branding.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  I did not ask her to add that.

• 3:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I just want my kid to be happy. Of course, we do. We want our kids to feel light. We want them to feel loved. We want them to move about the world with ease and confidence. But at the same time, maybe optimizing for our kids being happy is a little bit out of our control or has a cost to us or isn't actually good for them long-term, which doesn't mean we want our kids to be unhappy. But in today's conversation with Kate Bowler, I talk about happiness and joy, and I can tell you it gave me a totally different perspective on my days with my kid. I mean, I end most days thinking about how the day went. And I know I'm going to be asking myself different questions to assess my day because of this conversation,

• 3:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  and I have a feeling it's going to do that for you as well. Kate is a professor at Duke University. She's the author of so many amazing books. And she's honestly just a deep thinker who translates her thoughts into very practical, manageable ways to go about your life differently today. I know you're going to love this conversation. I think it's also going to lead to new thoughts and new associations and a new way of seeing your day.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  All right, here's where I want to start.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  You are only as happy as your unhappiest child. True? Not true? I think people think it's true, and it shouldn't be.

• 4:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Not that you want to, like, look into the eyes of your child and be like, "I'm thrilled."

• 4:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Sorry, having a bad time.

• 4:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is it the worst? Not for me.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  But I think this endless calibration of our own emotional worlds to the unhappiness of our children has, like, got to stop.

• 4:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, where, okay, so you're saying, "I'm so attentive to and perceptive of my kid's emotional state," which probably, I think, I've noticed is more and more common, right? Because there's maybe, maybe an overcorrection, but I think it comes from a good place, of feeling like, "Nobody looked at my emotional state when I was growing up," right?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  No one cared in the 80s.

• 5:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No one cared. No. And so I'm not going to do that.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But now, I'm so attentive, and you're saying, because your language was around kind of that being the barometer, now, my mood, like, I don't even know what my mood is until I've kind of assessed my kids.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And I think it starts with moms, in particular, believing that happiness is ultimately the goal. Like, and I know, we really share this deep in the biting hatred.

• 5:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But happiness has-

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Hatred of happiness?

• 5:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hatred.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Quote, us, Kate and Dr. Becky, hate happiness. Is that the-

• 5:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  She hates it.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  I hate it.

• 5:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I hate it.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 5:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I think, well, because happiness has such a distinct psychological profile. It's supposed to feel like ease. And if you think about happiness as ease, and then suddenly, it's a woman's job to guarantee ease?

• 6:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  It's wild when you think about all the things that would have to fall under that list for that to be true.

• 6:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Do you, do you want a snack?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  No, my-

• 6:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is the temperature okay? Do you want a snack?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, it would take a thousand details to put everyone in your life at ease. Okay, we're going to come back to the first thing I said, but now I'm on to a second thing, so I'm just going to follow my thought, which is, "I just want my kids to be happy." But that swap is really powerful because it changes that sentence for me. "I just want things to be easy for my kid." Like, and then, like, oh, I have a little more dissonance. That, is that, do I really want that?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think you're right. I think we start with saying, "I just want them to be happy. I care so much about their happiness." But when you think about it like, "I want my kid to feel relaxed all the time. I want my kid to feel only comfort and no distress. I don't want my child to experience the gamut of human emotion and ever be uncomfortable." Then I think we start to realize how many things we would have to do to fill in a gap that maybe we should not be filling.

• 7:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Oh, my goodness. I mean, yeah, it feels less enticing as soon as I replace it with ease. But maybe because I know if my kid only experiences ease and comfort in their early years, when their body is being wired up for the rest of their life, then they're locked into a version of life where they should always be comfortable and that ease, even in adulthood.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Maybe even locked into a version of life where anything, even a little bit hard, feels this hard just because their bodies kind of experience like, "What, what, what is this? I never, I've never, I've never had this before." But also, nothing even about childhood is always comfortable and easy. So the other part of that that doesn't feel good to me is my brain goes to, "Oh, is that my job then to morph and to get ahead of something and to take away and to exit?" And that, it makes me think about how exhausting it can be as a mom in modern-day parenting. But maybe some of it is this, this is how I'm operating all the time.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  I think we feel like plugged in to everyone else's nervous system.

• 8:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And that feels, well, for a lot of people, like, very tight and anxious and kind of, and worried and noticy. And if that's, it's sort of, so then it creates two very distinct roles. The mom is the professional happiness manager, and the child as the, as the bubble-wrapped-

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Precious darling. Yeah. Who is, whose job it is to feel this, to receive love as comfort? Hmm. Well, another question for you. You said, is happiness ease? Is that, is that the correct understanding of happiness? Or do we misunderstand it? Yeah, happiness, well, it'll, it'll make you feel relaxed. But happiness is, um, I think our culture thinks it's just positive feeling. But it's really many things that are going your way at once that will cause you to feel like you can settle in. And so for me, it would be this delicious beverage, a conversation with a friend I love. You're welcome for both.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  A gorgeous setup, like things are, you feel yourself like it. In that way, happiness is much more like math than other things. It's small incremental tiny things that really on the whole, if you look at it, happiness is what luck feels like. Huh. That makes me think about happenstance though. Like, is it not fully in my control? Exactly. Just a lot of things happened to lined up, happened to line up. I'm sorry, I didn't know that's, that's where it came from. It comes from the Norse word hap as in happenstance. So happiness. Yeah. Happiness is what happens to us. But, but wait, then I'm thinking, I just want my kid to be happy. Is I just want to create a life for my kid where everything happens to line up for them?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yes, forever. Don't. Forever, forever though. Eesh. But, okay, your newest book, and tell me about this, isn't titled happiness anyways. Happiness, right? It's not. So what do we miss on, is there happiness, joy? Those are, those are different. I thought that happiness and joy were the same thing. Until I looked into happiness as this ease, this set of things going your way, a whole world built of small circumstances. And as someone who has had really long stretches in my life where I couldn't line things up. I spent a lot of my 30s with a stage four cancer diagnosis. Like, I've had long seasons where happiness was not always available.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  And so I just kind of went looking like, well, if it can't always be happiness, is there some other beautiful thing that we can really like still promise each other? Yeah. Even when times get tough. And it turns out the joy is, is like a really beautiful, unusual thing. Like if happiness is relaxed, joy is this big, bright, enlivening feeling. It'll make, it's like it startles you awake. So there's nothing relaxing about joy. In fact, some of the historical descriptions of it, I really liked the C.S. Lewis one. It was so funny. He said, you know, it's joy when you feel like you've been stabbed with longing. And I was like stabbed. It's a little excessive.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  But like, it makes you feel like it's out of nowhere. You, you couldn't have predicted, predicted it because it'll feel like two things. It'll feel like a surprise of temporary wholeness. So it's not like that slow math of happiness where everything's adding up. If you get a moment of joy, it's like in that one moment, you will suddenly say, even if nothing is okay, right now it is deeply okay. I'm thinking about myself in this chair, being like, oh, happy. Like that's happiness and joy makes me, it's activating. Like I want to get out of the chair and go do something or be some effervescence bubbly thing. Yeah, that's right. Cause it'll feel like your soul is saying yes.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  And what it says yes to is like, it is good. It's my life is good. It's good to be alive. So walk me through a situation with each of these kind of operating principles. I just want my kid to be happy and I just want my kid to experience joy. Yeah. Would those lead to different frameworks, perspectives with interviewing? I just want my kid to be happy would require like a full orchestra of circumstances where they're singing a whole song around this child's experience. So I just want my child to be happy. You would have to try to smooth the sharp edges of every circumstance.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Joy doesn't require a lot of things to go right for it to still come your way. I was very surprised to learn that joy doesn't just hit your dopamine and your reward system. It engages your stress system, which means that while you can't be happy and sad at the same time, you can be joyful and sad, which is a very neat trick. And I think what it feels like is you can have, say, a child who has maybe a more complicated life. They're not always experiencing school as a wonderful place. Maybe friends are great one day, bad the next. Maybe they get worried.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  You can have a child who really knows that life is not always going their way and truly believe that they have an enormous capacity for joy and that no matter what they're going through, joy can still find them. Okay, I'm, I'm, two different things are pinging in my brain. Tell me if this is fair. If my job as a parent is to kind of keep my kid happy, I feel like I'm in the category of needing to change conditions. Very, yeah, that's right. With joy, I don't need to change conditions. I, I think that's a perfect description of like the control that isn't required to still know that your kid can be a deeply joyful kid. Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  And there are a couple, because I mean, joy is, is a bit tricky because it is, because it's a surprise. It's usually something you can't orchestrate because you can't surprise yourself. Surprise. Have you tried? I know. It's like, yeah. It's like, it's like trying to tickle your own arm. You're like, this is boring.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  It does, it is something that happens to you, but you can be, you can like create a capacity for joy. And what's funny is kids have this unbelievable capacity. Like their compass will lead them there.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  If we can try to set up a couple. Yeah. I think like, I mean, in that case, there are maybe a couple of preconditions. Okay. But it's mostly following what they already do. Tell me about that. What kind of, what we can learn from kids about joy? Well, if the first one would be, like, everyone says, like, well, you have to stay in the moment. Well, what's nice about kids is like, they can't not stay in the moment anyway. Like, no one has to be like, guys, come back to the now. Come back to the now. I'm gonna start saying that. I want to see what my eight year old does.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  That's right. He's always in the now. That's why he doesn't want to leave. He doesn't want to, you know, anything. Exactly. I live in the anxious middle future where something might happen. Every kid has this wonderful like, huh, oh, huh. They'd be like drawing things and like just constantly making a world where they are. And what's so beautiful about it is it's, that kind of person, if joy is a surprise, that kind of person is much easier to surprise. Their head isn't in their phone. They're not totally stuck on a story of how it's going to be. Like that kind of person is open to like being visited by something lovely.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  So I think their quality of presence is, and I, I do that for myself. I try really, when, when I'm like, I don't know, I'm, I'm, I'm humming about something. I'm really too worried. I really try just to look at the look on my kid's face. Cause there's just like a, there's just his, this giant froggy eyes. There's just an awareness of where he is that makes me, that like brings me back to myself. So I think we can like definitely follow their lead in that way. The second thing that is so amazing about kids is you kind of have to believe in joy for it to find you.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Because you have to be able to quiet those voices of, of doubt or despair about the world or about your life that says nothing will ever get better. And if you, if, if you follow the lead of your kid, they will very likely believe already that the world is full of treasures for them to find. And I know that because my in-laws gave my son a metal detector. It's just a walking nightmare. Yeah. A beep, beep, beep, walking nightmare. Yep. So it is full of literal treasures for him. But when I watch him ruin my backyard with debris,

• 17:56Speaker 01

  what I'm learning from him every time is like, he'll take a little bottle tab, you know, like the end of an aluminum can. Yeah. And I'll be like, can we just throw this out? And he'll be like, Dr. Pepper, the best drink of the day.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Is it hoarding? Maybe. But in there is little like aliveness. It's his answer to the question, is it good to be alive? Yeah. And if I look at all the little evidence in his life, his answer is yes. Yeah. And I think having that kind of ability to be delighted is something that we lose pretty quickly as adults. How do we lose it? I mean, who has time? There's a lot of that. For joy? To what? What? You're going to ask me to love my life? I was planning on just living it. Thank you. Yeah. Some of it is that, some of it is, and I think, I think it kind of almost made me sad

• 18:57Speaker 01

  when I was doing this joy research, realizing how many particularly women and moms don't believe that joy is for them. They really don't. Like they would do anything to make their kids experience a beautiful moment. Yeah. They're going to run around screaming about core memories. Yeah. Until they die. They're going to buy expensive concert tickets a million miles away. Yeah. For like. For an artist they don't like, let's be honest. Very basic. To be in a Ramada Inn with three other people's children. It's like. It's really true. Anything for other people. Yeah. But if you ask them, what lights you up? What brings you delight? It will, nothing will come to mind.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  And that's because it's been a long time since we even just wondered if that was something we should expect from our, a day, a week, a year of life. Yeah. Aren't we just like treating life like a project we're trying to get done? Instead of wondering like, but is it good for me just to feel this alive?

• 20:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  How do I raise a kid who actually trusts herself? This is one of the questions I hear most from parents because we all want our kids to have a strong sense of self. It's why I'm so excited to partner with Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts gives girls a space that's theirs, where they can start community service projects, learn to navigate the outdoors, challenge themselves, and make new friends. Girl Scouts meets girls where they are and helps them grow into who they're becoming. And here's what I love as a parent. It's girl-led. Adults are there to support, not run the show. So, girls make the decisions, solve the problems, and build confidence along the way. In a world that puts a lot of pressure on girls, Girl Scouts is a space where girls can feel joyful and empowered.

• 20:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  If you have a daughter in kindergarten through 12th grade, you can visit girlscouts.org to learn more. That's girlscouts.org to learn more. Here's a question parents ask me all the time. How can I help my kid take ownership of their routine? I love this question because owning a routine is such a good way for kids to build independence and confidence. It's why I'm excited to tell you about Yodo, the screen-free audio player for kids. In the mornings, your kid can wake up with Yodo's alarm clock. When your kid gets home from school, Yodo has focus tracks, audiobooks, music, and learning content. One of my kids really likes to write and record their own stories with the "make your own" cards. Then at night, your kid can build a wind-down routine with Yodo's toothbrush timer, white noise, and nightlight.

• 21:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  With the right sounds, stories, and a bit of structure thanks to Yodo, mornings feel more manageable. Homework time feels calmer, and winding down before bed becomes something kids can run themselves, making the whole school year feel a little easier for everyone. Use the code DRBECKY15 for 15% off your order at Yodoplay.com. New customers only. Ends October 31st. Terms apply. Offer valid on select products only.

• 22:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And there's something about your description of joy versus happiness, though, that makes me feel more hopeful about getting that feeling back because you're saying, it doesn't have to be so holistic. You don't have to do stuff that lights you up all the time. Don't worry, people. But it does feel like, oh, just to have that all the time feels intimidating. And I wonder if that's where the selfish things, oh, so my life, even with all my kids, is just about me. And, you know, that's not even what you're saying. You're talking about the capacity to have moments, to be surprised by moments, to have a magnet for something that lights you up, that activates you, not in the anxious way we all get activated, but in a "that feels good, I feel alive" way.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, our desire to make it into horrible homework that we're already failing at is very strong.

• 22:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  That's our optimized culture.

• 23:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  But I mean, that's, I think that's the, that's probably the last and most important thing kids teach us about joy.

• 23:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is like, you, a child will, will not optimize. Like, if you've ever seen them put shoes away, you know, like, they can't, they won't.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, when have you seen them put shoes away? What are you doing right in your house?

• 23:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  If you try to watch them for 45 minutes.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  I, it is this thing that we have in us now in our culture where we have metrics, we're measuring ourselves up against and failing. I was looking for my Oura ring when I was doing that. I was like, we are, we're trying to make ourselves into homework every day of our lives, but joy is not homework. And you can fully let go of the idea that you have to find joy, because it will find you. You just have to truly believe that you just living is a beautiful thing. Your just aliveness and, and eyes on the world is already enough.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  But hey, now that we're thinking about it, aren't there some things, some particular color blue, some way your kid laughs, that like, you just, you wanna like cherish in a way that opens up more and more and more space in your tired heart? That I would love for moms.

• 24:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And do you feel like no one can prescribe you how to get that? Like, your barometer of that feeling is, is the only thing? What gives someone else joy is not necessarily going to be the same thing for someone else?

• 24:36Speaker 01

  When I look back at some of the worst moments of my life, like, in the hospital, getting a diagnosis that I thought I was not gonna live through that Christmas to the summer, like, the end of everything I loved, I still had bizarre, beautiful moments of joy. And like, I would have told you that that's impossible. That's like, I'm not that good of a person. I can't engineer that. And I, you know, I am-

• 25:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Are you thinking about one now?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  There was just like, I felt so... When you're that sick, nothing can be okay, right? Anything anyone says just isn't that true. Like, of course it will be horrible, of course it will be painful. Like, the story is, well, nothing will ever be good again. And, but then for a moment, like, I felt deeply whole, like, loved, loved by other people, loved by God, just like, loved. It was like, but it was like a little, it was like a gift, and it came from outside myself. I couldn't have made it up. And then I felt, and I think this is the piece that I just think is so, like, important

• 25:54Speaker 01

  right now, is I felt carried by it because it like gives us strength to, to feel whole. And so, if you're going through a horrible time, like, I know it feels like we always have to crawl back out of the hole, crawl our way back to happiness, but like, just knowing that like, something as beautiful and temperate as joy can come find you in the dark and somehow convince a terrified and scared person that like, their life is still somehow deeply meaningful and beautiful? Like, I'm, I'm so grateful I can know that we can all have that. And like, kids can have that. We can have that at any stage of our life.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  And I just, I know despair feels very loud for people, especially when they're tired, and they just wish, like, no, no, just let me take care of everyone's needs, and then we're gonna be okay. And if it can't be like that, maybe we can renew a belief that the, the best parts of life are not gonna skip you and go find somebody else with better luck and more money.

• 27:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  They can still, they can still pick you out of a lineup and convince you that, that your life is beautiful.

• 27:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Are there things that block our potential for joy, even if there aren't things that give us joy?

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think huge joy blockers are, one is, is, is our, is our deep resentments. And I would love it if women felt very comfortable talking about their resentments.

• 27:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, it took me halfway through a book about joy to be like, am I very resentful?

• 27:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Were you?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  About the amount of happiness I've created for other people?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm pretty pissed off. How much happiness have I created? Your, your language was interesting, that you didn't say how much joy. So, you're saying, am I a kind of condition creator for so many other people that it's blocked my ability to experience joy?

• 28:03Speaker 01

  That's the perfect way to put it. That is exactly how I felt. And I, I had, I did not realize that I was, there was that much sort of just calcified frustration, especially because I had dug my way out of a tough situation and then tried to make it not just good for other people, easy for other people.

• 28:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What do you mean?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  I mean, every, I'll say this lovingly, every man in my life will never go without a snack, you know? I had to call myself on it the other day when I realized, realized I was opening chip bags for men on airplanes if they looked like my dad.

• 28:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Wow.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, ma'am.

• 28:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hold on, this is old. This is-

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Very old. My therapist would tell me to pause here.

• 28:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  This is going straight to therapy.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Hold on a second.

• 28:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  This stranger looked so happy. I looked so surprised. I was like, and there's something wrong with me.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  The amount of comfort that I'm very comfortable creating for the people around me is just is so ingrained. I'm so wired into everybody else's hopes and needs.

• 29:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're good at it.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  So good at it.

• 29:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Let's make it a compliment.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 29:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I was like, I will die of empathy. I will die this way.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But very practically, how do you unwind that? Or if it's in the name of trying to preserve conditions for joy to reach you?

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What's like a decision point? Like what? I feel like someone's listening, like, stop opening chip bags. Is that what Kate? Is that what I should do? Is that the thing?

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely that. But also, what I did was I made a list of my resentments. I made it with my best friend. We thought it was hilarious, but it was actually quite deep because it is like when you when you can hear the stories that you're telling, this is, we started to create like rules for how to create this list. And one is just write down everything. Don't, don't, write down any moment that changed you, scarred you, you wish it could be another way. Don't make it pretty. Don't make a lesson. No. Name names. Someone didn't hurt you in general. It was Linda.

• 30:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yep. This is just for you.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sorry, any Lindas out there, but you've been named a lot.

• 30:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, write it down. Don't make it pretty. Just name the thing.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Because in an effort to spare our imagined listener, we usually won't say what it cost us. And if we want to get to a place of like, I think emotional openness first, maybe at least know that at some point you count the cost. And I, when I would kind of miss out on stories, I'd call my best friend and she'd be like, let's not forget the number four. So I made a big fat list.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I found in looking at it that I could tell almost immediately that there were things that I needed a little

• 31:04Speaker 01

  I, that I wanted to figure out a way through so that it wasn't quite so painful anymore. And a lot of this stuff you can't change. Like I was very badly misdiagnosed and treated poorly in the medical system.

• 31:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So there's a bunch of stories like that.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. I'm thinking about someone listening who thinks I was, I'd never received a cancer diagnosis. Does that?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Is that, is that the level it has to be to count? So what counts for this list? Can you be really practical?

• 31:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There, and problems don't have to be super problemy to be really important in the way that it changed your life. I think especially when it comes to like, does this count? If you find yourself repeating that story more than once or twice, it is very likely that there's something unhealed about that that is likely to make it difficult for you to believe that good and lovely things are still going to come your way.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And so fair to say, if you're wondering if it counts, just experiment.

• 32:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Experiment with it counting. Write it down.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay.

• 32:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think that's right. Take yourself seriously. I don't think women believe themselves.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 32:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So write it down and then just see, do you believe that it cost you? Because if it did, it did.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I just want to pause on that for a second. I always think the most confidence building words you can ever say to a kid are just, I believe you. That that is what confidence is. It's believing your own experience, right? And um, I, I don't think we were born not believing, not believing ourselves, but it was snatched, you know?

• 32:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's good.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I feel like at the end of the day, if I think to myself, because I'm happy or my kid's happy.

• 32:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Um, I'm oriented toward kind of the negative, toward the no, because any moment of like not happiness becomes proof that, oh, I guess I wasn't happy. And I feel like the opposite of joy where like, oh, was there? Joy is momentary anyway. Were there moments of joy? Like, oh, yes, yes, yes. It's so much easier to get to the affirmative.

• 33:11Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  About joy than it is about happiness.

• 33:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I totally agree.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  And I think it's also then such a relief to know that like, it wasn't that big of a deal. I didn't have to do very much for it to happen.

• 33:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I wasn't a better person. I'm fine, for the record. Not great.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Joy still happens to me all the time.

• 33:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  And, you know, like I was on this little trip with my family this weekend and it was, it was hot. There were a lot of non orchestrated moments of family togetherness I didn't enjoy.

• 33:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  But um, I started doing this ridiculous thing where I look over at my husband in a historical site and I realize he doesn't know where we are.

• 33:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  He doesn't know your world's biggest pistachio.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Well, also like we're at Versailles and he's like, who's Napoleon? And then I'm like, my desire to make fun of him is so strong, but instead what I started to do is buy the like four kids, who's Napoleon book at the gift shop? And what we do is we just do dramatic readings and now we're all in on the joke because now I'm like, dude, I don't even really know that much about Versailles. Whatever, wherever we are, I don't even know. Yeah. So we were at the Alamo this weekend and we realized that none of us had any clue why that was important. I'm so sorry. I'm from Canada. It just was not a part of our educational process. So at dinner, we were doing a dramatic reading of what is the Alamo? And we just like, it's just endless riffing and dumb jokes on jokes.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  And my husband took a picture and it's just like me being ridiculous, but my son, the way he's looking at me in the picture, he is like busting up. And I know that that was like a little snapshot of a dusty, unplanned, didn't go perfectly vacation, where what is the Alamo ended up being like a genuine experience of joy. Yeah. So it can be small and dumb and unplanned, but what a gift to know it's small and dumb and unplanned.

• 35:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. And I'm just thinking, it's such a more hopeful question. I just think about the parents listening who we do, we end our day in bed and we kind of review our day. And I think about, oh, my kid's still going through this peer issue and oh, maybe their body's changing or they're still hitting on the playground, whatever it is. And the presence of something hard kind of becomes proof to me that I messed it up, that I failed, that my kid's not really happy, maybe that I'm not really happy. But if I could think back and instead it's, it's asking myself a different question. Just were there moments of joy today? Like there always are and they're always in the messy situations. They're always in the ridiculous. They're when the milk spilled and yeah, you know, you were cleaning up and something funny happened. Or I remember one time

• 35:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  you get all this dry pasta and I can't remember which of my kids just threw it and all of a sudden like, oh, I guess we're having a pasta fight. And I say dry because with marinara sauce, it wouldn't have been as, it wouldn't have been as funny in our house, but it was so joyful. That couldn't have lasted forever. We, you know, like

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 36:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  In that day, and I don't remember the exact day, I'm sure my kids fought and I'm sure one of my kids got a bad grade in a test. I'm sure there were unhappy moments. But if, at the end of the day, I'm asking myself, was there a moment of joy and can I live in that for a moment?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It just feels so much more hopeful.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  I think, I think that thought exercise is so useful to be like, it can be

• 36:34Speaker 01

  that they'll, there doesn't have to be a perfect day to be a joyful day.

• 36:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  And then the companion thought exercise, and this is just for every now and then, is to remember a really, really difficult time. And then ask yourself, was there a moment where you felt the light kind of break through? Because then the next time you feel your life bottoming out, I always find I get this very scrambly scared feeling like I'm going down, and you can feel it when the bottom's dropping out on your life. But part of the panic, I hope, will somehow be slightly calmed by the knowledge that like wherever you go, joy will find you. Wherever you go, joy will find you.

• 37:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Kate, what is wrong with saying, everything happens for a reason?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's, it's one of those things that's very comforting to say.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Except that we don't usually know most of the reasons for why awful things happen. And it does become pretty cruel to look at someone whose life is coming apart and be like, just so you know, I know the reason.

• 37:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What do kids understand about joy that adults do not?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  They believe that the world is full and ready to be discovered. And that there are hidden treasures everywhere for anyone with eyes to see. And that is not only a fun and ridiculous way to see the world, but you'll also find a lot of things in their pockets later that you'll have to throw out when they get to the dryer.

• 38:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What do you say to a parent who's realizing, I have not experienced joy in a really long time?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  I think first acknowledging the sadness to that, that that probably meant that they brought a lot of joy to other people. Um, and that

• 38:26Speaker 01

  and that it's always a good time to rediscover the sense that your life, before you were useful to anyone, you were already good.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Inside, good inside, good inside. Just reading all the branding.

• 38:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I did not ask her to add that. We are just.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Spirit animals, sisters.

• 38:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay.

• 38:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  When your son is older and someone asks him, what was your mom like when you were younger? What do you hope he says?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Well, I like that he always says that I'm friends with strangers. And it's such a funny thing to say, but it's my feeling that the world is, is open, that there, that somebody will always have a funny story. And that, and that if joy is contagious, like I am very likely to be like blown away by someone else's ridiculousness. So I, I think it's my favorite compliment and I, I hope I still get it later.

• 39:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That you're friends with strangers.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Just friends with strangers.

• 39:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, that's how we started out.

• 39:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There we are. Well, thank you. You are just, you, you spark joy in so many, in me, every time I talk to you and your writing and your blessings and just your way. So thank you for bringing so much of it.

• 39:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So many things stick out about that conversation to me, but the one I'll keep thinking about is that if I ask myself, are my kids happy? Are my kids happy today? I'm so oriented to think about all the ways my kids weren't happy and then to say, no, my kids weren't happy and feel like a failure. If I ask a different question, was there a moment of joy today? It's so much easier to find the yes. It's actually so much more possible to kind of notice a moment and allow that to be meaningful without having one moment negate everything good in the day. Now I asked Kate to do something. You know, Kate is just so incredibly talented at writing practical, everyday blessings.

• 40:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I asked her to write a blessing for our listeners, for parents who, yeah, want the best for their kids, for parents who want their kids to be happy, but maybe also want a little bit more joy in their life. And so I'm going to link to that in show notes and Kate just has this amazing way with words. Trust me, it's going to be worth going there, clicking on it, maybe even printing it out or screenshotting it to save it. Now let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. Place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.

• 41:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Maybe as is right for this conversation, even as we struggle on the outside, remain capable of joy inside. I'll see you soon.

• 41:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 42:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 43:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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