Ruby Ridge Standoff | God, Guns, and Government: The Movement Shaping Modern Politics | 5

Sociologist Andrew Whitehead is a Christian worried about an influential force in modern politics: Christian nationalism. He joins Lindsay to discuss how the beliefs that shaped the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge are connected to the movement and how they’re fueling extremism and threatening democratic institutions today. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ http://wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 0:00Lindsay Graham?

  Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 0:21Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scandal.

• 0:44Lindsay Graham?

  In August of 1992, federal agents surrounded a remote cabin in northern Idaho. Inside was Randy Weaver, a former soldier and Christian fundamentalist, along with his wife, children, and a family friend. The Weavers had been living off the grid for years, preparing for Armageddon. But what began as a minor weapons charge quickly spiraled into a violent standoff. By the time it ended, three people were dead. To many Americans, Ruby Ridge was a disturbing example of reckless force used by the federal government. But for some, it confirmed a deeper truth: that the state was corrupt, godless, and on the verge of tyranny. In their eyes, the Weavers weren't criminals, they were prophets. Today, the ideas that shaped the Weavers' worldview, like apocalyptic Christianity

• 1:29Lindsay Graham?

  and a deep distrust of democratic institutions, are no longer confined to isolated cabins in the woods. Now they're at the heart of an influential political force: Christian nationalism, an ideology that has inspired violence in places like Charlottesville and Washington, D.C., and is increasingly shaping political platforms, court decisions, and campaigns across the country. My guest today is Andrew Whitehead. He's a professor of sociology at Indiana University and the author of "American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church." Our conversation is next.

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• 3:19Lindsay Graham?

  Andrew Whitehead, welcome to American Scandal.

• 3:21Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:23Lindsay Graham?

  Now, you define Christian nationalism as a cultural framework that idealizes and advocates for a particular expression of Christianity within American civic life. Let's break that down a bit. What is this particular expression of Christianity?

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is the really important part of the definition of Christian nationalism because it highlights that there are hundreds and thousands, really, of expressions of Christianity. So the Christianity of Christian nationalism, it does refer to some of the historic orthodox theological beliefs of Christianity that most of us are familiar with, but it also includes what I like to call cultural baggage, like a desire for traditionalist social hierarchies, a comfort with authoritarian social control, strong ethno-racial boundaries around national identity, and then also a sense of populism and conspiratorial thinking that... This nation is being taken away.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  And so what we find over and over empirically is Christian nationalism is focused on benefiting the us and the we at the detriment of others, at the detriment of the marginalized. And it's that cultural baggage that gets intertwined with the Christianity of Christian nationalism that really highlights this particular expression.

• 4:40Lindsay Graham?

  So turning to the subject of this series, The Weavers, would you say that their beliefs about things like the coming apocalypse, government betrayal, these sort of things reflect strains of Christian nationalist thinking?

• 4:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that even more so in the present day, we find strains of especially conspiratorial thinking really being present and rising up within the Christianity of Christian nationalism. And so when we look at specific cases like The Weavers and the conspiratorial thinking that kind of undergirds a lot of what took place and they were all about, we do find Americans that embrace Christian nationalism do align with that. So there are a number of studies that highlight folks that strongly embrace Christian nationalism are more likely to embrace various conspiratorial beliefs, that the government is hiding something about, let's say, the JFK assassination or the moon landing.

• 5:34Speaker 03

  But what we also find is that when we give folks a list of conspiratorial beliefs that they think the government might be hiding information about, and then we include a conspiratorial belief in that list that is made up by the researchers, so it's not something that anybody has heard of before, we find Americans who embrace Christian nationalism are also more likely to believe the government is hiding something about a conspiracy belief that is literally made up. And so this highlights that as new conspiratorial beliefs come on the market, these folks are ready and willing to embrace that the government or elites are hiding something about this, the susceptibility to suggestion where, you know, do we have evidence, let's say,

• 6:19Speaker 03

  that the 2020 election was stolen? No, there is no evidence, but again, very open to the suggestion that there were improprieties or- There were voting machines that were being taken over. And even today, some of the leaders of that movement saying these voting machines are even controlled by Satan, which again is is not anything that can be proven or disproven, but open to that belief that there are these shadowy forces that are pushing against the real, the good Americans. And I think it's important to point out, too, that as we're looking at the current context of Americans that maybe strongly embrace Christian nationalism, they are

• 6:57Speaker 03

  and might be influenced by the stories and narratives and experiences of the Weaver family or others like them, who they believe are folks that were just trying to live their lives, but then were wrongly harmed, right, by the government or whatever else. And so now we have to get involved. And so even that story has probably shifted some of the narratives within Christian nationalism in the United States.

• 7:22Lindsay Graham?

  One of the founding fictions, perhaps, of Christian nationalism is, of course, the idea that this country was founded as a Christian nation. Where did that idea come from?

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it has a long history in American thought. And in many ways, depending on how we define Christian nation, we have varying levels of evidence for whether that's true or not. And so I think that's what makes it really difficult to nail down. Because if we're looking at Christian nation and defining it as are most of the people here generally Christian, well, then for much of the history of the United States and even today, yeah, a majority, over 50% of people are a part of some Christian tradition. But if we're talking about the founding documents are explicitly Christian, we don't have any evidence of that, as the Declaration of Independence never mentions Jesus, or the Constitution doesn't even mention God.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  But what we have over time is there are folks who are intent on creating that narrative and creating, in many ways, false representations of our founding documents or the founding fathers to create a narrative that appeals to folks that want that to be true. And so one example of this is David Barton and his group, Wall Builders, in Texas. So he's a Political operative and for years and years he has worked to create this narrative that the founding fathers, literally all of them, were evangelical, just like we see folks today, that the founding documents were explicitly Christian, all of these things. And that has become really powerful on the right, both politically and culturally.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  And so that narrative has, has really stuck with us. There are many folks that want that to be true, believe it to be true. And so they're willing to overlook what historians have found in favor of, again, this political operative that is telling them something that they would kind of want to be true. And so we know there are folks that are working to create that narrative and undergird it because they can build off of that and say, well, if this country was a Christian nation, then we need to push it forward towards these, again, quote, quote, "Christian ends" that we see for the nation.

• 9:33Lindsay Graham?

  This may be an unfair question because I'm asking you to elaborate on someone's motives. But for those people who do push this notion that America is a Christian nation, do you believe that there's a cynicism in it, that they have political goals that they are trying to achieve with this fabricated narrative? Or is it more an instance of perhaps wish fulfillment or motivated reasoning?

• 9:53Speaker 03

  You know, I think it's really both at work. And I think those circles overlap, but they're not one in the same as you're pointing out. I do think that there are folks that truly believe this narrative to be true. And some of it might be motivated reasoning because they want, you know, so much of their identity and history and past is wrapped up in this belief. To set that aside is really difficult. And I do think there are folks who are more cynical, where I don't think they're true believers at all, but they recognize the power of that rhetoric. They recognize what that can do for them in the political sphere to motivate folks. What they share, though, is that the outcomes generally align, right? They want a country that privileges a particular group of people, generally white,

• 10:37Speaker 03

  natural born citizens who align with a traditional social ethic around gender and sexuality. They want this country to serve those folks most easily and best, with other folks falling in line behind. But these are the people that should have their hands on the levers of power. And so I think whether it is true believers or more cynical users of the rhetoric, their end goal aligns. And I think that's what brings them together and makes them such a powerful political and social force.

• 11:07Lindsay Graham?

  Now, you mentioned the phrase "white, natural-born citizens." Going back to the Weavers, in the 1980s, they flirted with Christian identity, a religion of many white separatist groups that holds that Aryans are God's chosen people. Is race also embedded in Christian nationalism?

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we find over and over, as we survey the American public, Americans who embrace Christian nationalism, when they hear "Christian nation," and that word "Christian," it isn't, again, just pointing to orthodox Christian beliefs, but it is activating racialized views of who is the ideal American, a true American citizen. And so, when they're thinking of a Christian nation, in many ways, they're imagining a white Christian nation. And so, race is fundamentally intertwined with this imagination of a Christian nation. And we find over and over that the more we embrace Christian nationalism, the more likely they are to believe that certain inequalities, based on race across the United States,

• 12:07Speaker 03

  whether it's the criminal justice system, or access to economic mobility, or education, or healthcare, those folks that embrace Christian nationalism are more likely to say, to hold racist views in all those different areas. And so, again, when we look at it historically too, we see that as Christianity came to these shores, even before the founding of the United States, we see that these ideas of what is Christian and good, and the ideas of race and color of the skin, were really melded together to where a good American, or a good citizen, was Christian and white, but black or brown, whether the slaves that they brought with them,

• 12:51Speaker 03

  or the indigenous populations that they encountered and had to move off the land, these were folks that did not represent the good, did not represent Christian. And so, again, that underscored what they saw as their right to take control of this land and these people. It goes that far back, and has been a common thread in this understanding of what is a Christian nation, and who are good Christians.

• 13:13Lindsay Graham?

  In addition to their religious beliefs, the Weavers believe strongly in self-reliance and taking care of themselves and not relying on the government and in fact, being quite skeptical of the government. Do you see any of those strains in Christian nationalism too?

• 13:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, so when we look at Christian nationalism, there are elements of kind of economic views tied up with that, particularly this devotion to capitalism and neoliberal economic values. And it's tied up with this idea of Americans as individuals, as masters of their own destiny, and this desire to, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and do what is necessary to make your way forward. So, one example is the book written by Kevin Kruse called One Nation Under God. And he's looking at how, in his argument, corporate America created Christian America. So, we had these wealthy businessmen who were afraid of the New Deal and these,

• 14:08Speaker 03

  what they called socialist policies, that were going to harm their newspaper empires or business empires. And so, they lifted up these voices of Christians, like Billy Graham was a part of this, to say that capitalism is God's perfectly designed way for a nation to meet its economic needs. And so, we should be afraid of socialism or anything else that moves against that. And so, the Christian nationalism that we see come to the fore is really focused on this idea that you need to be a capitalist. And that led into the Red Scare of the 50s and this fear of communism. And so, as we look at Christian nationalism

• 14:49Speaker 03

  through the 20th century and even into today, there are economic principles tied up in that. And so, this underscores some of the discomfort that Americans who embrace Christian nationalism might have with any sort of federal subsidy or program that helps lift up those who are poor or in need of health insurance or anything else. Because they think that it is all about the individual doing what is necessary, rather than caring for all who are part of the collective.

• 15:19Lindsay Graham?

  So clearly, some aspects of Christian nationalism can be traced back decades or even centuries. But when did the movement of today really start to emerge?

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think the current iteration that we're experiencing around Christian nationalism really generates from the 1970s. And so there were political and religious leaders on the right who in the 70s were looking around and recognizing that there was dramatic social, cultural, and demographic change happening, really as a result of the 1960s with the Civil Rights Movement, the Gender and Sexual Revolution, all of those things. And so they were looking around them and they were recognizing that this country and their beliefs of what this country is and is all about were no longer taken for granted. And when that started to happen, they recognized, well, we have to insert ourselves into the

• 16:07Speaker 03

  political and social, cultural system to make a case for this is who this country is and has always been and where it should go and how we should get there. And that's where the current iteration of Christian nationalism with the rise of the Moral Majority and those groups really came on, on the hold.

• 16:26Lindsay Graham?

  So if the most recent version started in the 1970s, could you give us a quick history of how it's modernized to today?

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think one of the ways that it's really modernized is, again, highlighting this comfort with authoritarian social control, where folks are more and more comfortable setting aside what we've always believed to be these norms of democracy, of many voices at the table coming together. We see in this current iteration that as long as democracy was giving them the results that they desired, they were fine with it. But as we've moved into, and again, Trump coming on the scene, we see more and more that they're absolutely fine setting aside democracy and setting aside any kind of semblance

• 17:13Speaker 03

  of the right of all people in the US to vote, to take part in the democratic process. They're okay with setting that aside because, again, they believe that these outcomes that God desires, right? So this vision for the United States is legitimate. In the will of the Christian God, then nothing should stand in their way, even democracy. And so I think that's something that is quite new. I think the threads were there for a long time, but that's something that is quite new. And again, I think that's because of the growing social and demographic and religious diversity of the nation has increased. They recognize more and more that numbers in a sense are not on their side.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  And so if democracy in a pluralistic democratic society will allow them to enact this vision for the country, they're willing to set that aside.

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• 19:21Lindsay Graham?

  Let's talk about how influential Christian nationalism is today. It seems more prominent than ever, but would you say that these beliefs are becoming more mainstream?

• 19:31Speaker 03

  When we're looking at Christian nationalism and measuring it across the American public, what we find is that it is not growing. There are not more Americans embracing Christian nationalism now than ever before. In fact, what we find is probably shrinking slightly, that over the last 10 or 15 years, there are slightly fewer people who strongly embrace Christian nationalism than before. And so, looking at that, we might think, well, this isn't any more influential, it's actually getting smaller. But what we find is actually the rhetoric and the salience of this cultural framework is much more present. So, if we look at the first term of the Trump administration, and then while he was not in office during the Biden administration, and now back in office, Christian nationalism and those narratives have been at the forefront

• 20:16Speaker 03

  of Trump and others in his orbit, as they try to understand and make a case for who this country is and what it should all be about. It was always there with prior Republican presidents, but Donald Trump and those around him have leaned into that rhetoric even more. And then also, what we find is as this group actually grows smaller, as they recognize, you know, these beliefs of Christian nationalism are no longer as broadly held by other Americans, they recognize, well, this is what actually makes us different. And so, if we're going to protect this country, we have to ensure that we are the remnant that is doing everything we can to bring this nation back. And so, it's kind of this flip, where they may not be larger

• 21:01Speaker 03

  in numbers, but the salience of Christian nationalism is even stronger, and we find over and over that they're actually really politically engaged.

• 21:11Lindsay Graham?

  Do you think that's this increase in salience and engagement as an artifact of their decreasing size that allows more people to embrace the term "Christian nationalist"? A few years ago, many would have distanced themselves from that term.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think what it has done is it's kind of brought it to the fore where we see people feeling like they do have to place themselves on one side of the line or other. And so we have folks like Marjorie Taylor Greene, or Josh Hawley, right, folks that are serving in the US House or in the Senate, who are adopting the term for themselves and saying, yes, I'm a Christian nationalist. And I should note that they're redefining it in a way that suits them. So they're not using the empirically supported definition that social scientists like myself use. But they're saying, yeah, we're Christian nationalists. And all it means is that we love Jesus and we love this country. Again, that's not what Christian nationalism is, but they're adopting that term. But then we see folks on the other

• 22:06Speaker 03

  side who are saying, you know, I'm maybe even Christian, and I think Christianity is important, but I'm definitely not a Christian nationalist as it's been defined, or that we're showing what it is. And so we see folks, again, distancing themselves from it. So I think this has led to perhaps why we see the numbers of those that strongly embrace Christian nationalism declining slightly over the years, as folks kind of learn what it's about and say, no, I'm not about that. But then we have folks who maybe have always strongly embraced it, more willing to say, yeah, this is who we are, and this is what we're all about. And they're willing to identify with that term.

• 22:44Lindsay Graham?

  This is interesting to me, the adoption of the label, Christian nationalism, but at the same moment, redefining it so it seems innocuous. How else has the political rhetoric been influenced or changed to kind of nod at Christian nationalism?

• 22:58Speaker 03

  What we find with Christian nationalism is that it operates at some different levels. So my colleague, Sam Perry, who I co-authored our first book on Christian nationalism with, he had an article that he published recently where he was looking at some of this politicized rhetoric around Christian nationalism. And he identified it as, in some ways, it does operate as a dog whistle, where folks that use it, the political operatives that use it, they know that the audiences who are most primed to hear these words as they want them to be heard, are going to be drawn to it, right? Maybe other groups might miss, but those they're speaking to are going to hear it. But he also shows and points out how this rhetoric also operates as a mating call,

• 23:43Speaker 03

  where it is out there and everybody knows what it's about. But this is the stuff that this group that they want to see activated politically is wanting to hear, is ready to hear, and that will draw them, you know, to their side and to get them politically motivated. And so I think that's where, again, we may have politicians that are true believers in Christian nationalism. We may have some that just recognize the power of the rhetoric, but the outcomes are the same. The words they use, the rhetoric they use, that is drawing in these groups and getting them motivated to get out, to vote, to again, defend their way of life, because they believe that the very soul of the nation is at stake.

• 24:22Lindsay Graham?

  I'm wondering if you could give us some examples of this specific rhetoric, because it runs the risk of being repugnant to the out group, even if it is a mating call in quotes for the in group.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there are, you know, a lot of different examples. You know, one that we see more recently and that folks are talking about, and that has kind of took place leading up to the 2024 election, is rhetoric around the idea that Christians are a persecuted minority, right? So we see Trump, who is speaking to groups of Christians leading up to the election, and then even after saying, you know, "America, the elites, the academics, the politicians, the media, all of these groups, they hate Christians, they hate you, they hate your way of life, and you need someone who is going to defend you." And he's, he's saying, "I will defend you, I will defend your way of life, we're going to defend God, we're going to defend Christianity, we're going to make it okay to be Christian again."

• 25:18Speaker 03

  When in all reality, Christianity is not under attack. The folks that embrace this worldview or this religion can live here freely, worship here freely, but they recognize that he's talking about a particular type of Christian, right? He's not talking about Reverend William Barber's flavor of Christianity, more progressive form of Christianity. He's talking about the politically- Religiously conservative expression of Christianity that aligns in many ways with Christian nationalism. And so that's an example of this rhetoric that is right out in front, that they know what it's about, who he's speaking to, but it carries with it all of this rhetorical

• 25:59Speaker 03

  weight because they can read into what he's saying about Christianity being under attack or persecuted and the fact that he's speaking to this group specifically.

• 26:08Lindsay Graham?

  So that's Christian nationalism as it's reflected in political rhetoric, but how is it reflected in political policy? What are some examples of Christian nationalist legislation you might see on local or national levels?

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we see a number of different aspects of this. In many ways, I think one of the more helpful guides to follow, and as journalists and others are tracking this, is Project 2025. And so this is, you know, a whole kind of roadmap for conservative political views of how the federal government should operate, the types of things that they should be doing. And there were a lot of groups that were a part of the writing of Project 2025. And some of the people and the groups were explicitly those that embraced this idea of Christian nationalism. One example is Russell Vought, who leads the Office of in Management of the Budget, did that in the first term for Trump and is doing that again.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  And so some of the things that they highlight, policy-wise, align with those cultural aspects of the Christianity of Christian nationalism. So for one example, looking at traditionalist social hierarchies, right? So this is the view that the United States should be ordered where men lead, women support and follow, marriage is heterosexual between a man and a woman, and they're committed to bearing children. So this is how society should be structured. And so when we look at Project 2025, or a number of the executive orders that Trump signed and continues to sign, they do focus on gender and sexuality, right?

• 27:45Speaker 03

  So there was one that was saying that gender means a man and a woman, and that's it. It's a binary, right? And so we can See that this is policy aimed at defining gender according to this desire for a traditional social hierarchy. We see executive orders that are banning transgender Americans from serving in the military. Again, that there are only two genders. There's only heterosexuality should be elevated and folks that do not align with that should not have access to the civil benefits, the opportunities available to others Americans. And so those are just a couple within one of the cultural aspects of Christian nationalism. But when we look at strict ethno-racial

• 28:26Speaker 03

  boundaries, right, we see them banning number of books from the US Naval Academy that are engaging with this idea of racial inequality in America and American history, right? So here again, we see them looking at the social context and discourse and saying that we want to align it all with this very particular view of what is a Christian nation and what should that look like?

• 28:51Lindsay Graham?

  Now, if there is a figurehead of the movement, by many metrics, Donald Trump is not a prototypical evangelical Christian, but he's been embraced by this group, even called God's Chosen Leader. How do we explain this dynamic?

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it actually is such a great example of the power of Christian nationalism as a cultural framework, because it isn't about the personal religiosity or piety of the leader like Donald Trump. In fact, whether he's individually religious or pious really doesn't matter. And we see this over and over in the words of those that are part of this movement, where they say, hey, we're not electing a pastor in chief, we're electing a commander in chief. We want a person who will punch the bully, right, on the playground, as they've said. They want somebody who will fight for them. And so it isn't about necessarily representing the dictates of the Christian faith. It's about gaining access to and maintaining privileged access to power.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  And if Donald Trump, however, he might present himself individually, allows us to have privileged access to power, then we are on board. And the extent that maybe he even cuts against some of these historic Christian beliefs about morality or piety is is fine, right? We are on board with him because again, he allows us to push forward some of the designs we have for this country, because we want power and that's what it comes down to.

• 30:19Lindsay Graham?

  Returning to the events at Ruby Ridge, they inspired infamously the Oklahoma City bombings and have become something of a founding myth for many far-right militia groups since. It seems like one of the primary lessons that militia groups took out of the events at Ruby Ridge was that violence is necessary and even justified.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  Yes, I do think that's true, and it's something that is also a thread that runs through Christian nationalism as we look at it historically, but also in the minds of Americans today. So in one of the books that I wrote, I highlight the three idols of Christian nationalism: power, fear or sense of threat, and then violence. And so when a group is intent on maintaining privileged access to power, and that aligns with this distinct understanding of us versus them, and the fear and sense of threat that they are going to come take our power or our rights as Americans, then violence is a natural result because the only way to defend our rights to power that benefits us

• 31:21Speaker 03

  is to enact violence on them. So whether it is, you know, the threat of violence or actually through violence, both of those are just fine. And many of the narratives align with this understanding of violence in the Christian scriptures, whether it's the Old or even the New Testament, where they're able to say, well, at various times, God or God's people have had to resort to violence in order to defend their rights of who they are. And so even as we, you know, survey the American public, we see greater comfort with different forms of violence, whether it's state sanctioned violence, like capital punishment for wrongdoers, or the fact that they believe true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to set things right.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  If an election does not go their way, they may have to work outside of the political processes, may have to just enact violence in order to make the right thing happen. So we saw that on January 6th, and we continue to see that as a significant thread in, again, the minority of Americans that strongly embrace Christian nationalism, but it is something that they are willing to engage in and with. And so I think that presents a significant threat when we look at the group as a whole across the United States, but then too within some of these right-wing conspiratorially-minded militia groups.

• 32:43Lindsay Graham?

  What's the extent of the overlap between these militia groups and Christian nationalism?

• 32:48Speaker 03

  It's a really good question. I think one that first, you know, I don't have really good, generalizable data for what we can see anecdotally at least. Let's look at January 6. We see some of these groups that embrace Christian nationalism there on January 6 or as they respond to it, finding common cause with some of those more militia-minded right-wing groups like the Proud Boys, where, you know, some, some of the Proud Boys and the speeches that they make maybe refer to this nation as a Christian nation, maybe not. But those groups that do see this nation as a Christian nation are willing to interact with and overlap with some of those folks because they believe that those right-wing

• 33:30Speaker 03

  or militia-minded groups are in common cause and see the nation as they see it. So, one example is a worship leader, Sean Feut, who, you know, was leading these worship rallies during COVID-19 against, you know, the orders of different cities and states. And he had Proud Boys who were providing quote-unquote "security" at those events. And so, they are different groups, but they see alignment in, in common cause in the desires that they see for who this nation is and what it's all about.

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• 35:10Speaker 06

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things

• 35:54Speaker 06

  that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 36:18Lindsay Graham?

  You write that ultimately, Christian nationalism is bad for democracy. Given its rise in influence, or at least prominence, where is this movement going?

• 36:27Speaker 03

  That's a really good question, and one that is always difficult to see. But I think there's at least one aspect that we know will continue. And so, as we gather data on Americans that embrace Christian nationalism, they are very committed and comfortable with this idea that democracy, as long as it returns results that they agree with or in line with their desires, is fine. But the extent that it doesn't, they're willing to set that aside. And so, I think what we're going to see in the coming years is a continuation of a lot more centralization of power within the executive branch, because we want to see our president being able to do whatever he wants to do. Now, obviously, if a Democrat

• 37:12Speaker 03

  was in office, they wouldn't want that centralization of power. So, that just underscores the comfort of changing The rules in such a way that benefits them in order to see the outcomes that they want, right? Or if we look at the separation of powers, as it's described in the Constitution, where Congress has the right responsibility to levy taxes and collect duties and all of those things. Well, we see in the current moment that Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House even, has said, you know, it's probably great that we just let the president do what he wants here. So again, it's an abdication of what the Constitution lays out to see the centralization of power where they desire. And so these are signals already of setting aside democracy

• 37:56Speaker 03

  and our constitutionally defined separation of powers in order to see the outcomes that they want. And so that is going to continue. And I think in many ways, it's going to come down to whether this is a nation that we define as for all people or to benefit only a particular group of people. And I think that's what's under discussion in the coming years.

• 38:18Lindsay Graham?

  But even as Christian nationalists become more bold in their aspirations of power, you've mentioned that their numbers are shrinking. How does this influence the future?

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I think what this highlights, though, too, is that when we look at, let's say, the breakdown of the US Congress, it is overwhelmingly Protestant and Christian, overwhelmingly male and white. And so even though across the population, we might see those numbers dwindling, when we look at those with access to power, they have more people in those seats of power. And so that allows the movement to obviously continue on further because it isn't just the size of the movement, but whether you have access to the levers, right, that continue to privilege and benefit your social group. And then I think, too, as Americans who strongly embrace Christian nationalism, they may shrink in size. That way of defining

• 39:09Speaker 03

  themselves, that identity becomes even more salient. So when they go to interact in their communities or to vote or to figure out who to support in another election or politically, they're thinking in terms of the fact that they are the remnant, they are the last reserves of this way of life. And so they have to act. They have to act now. And so that provides a lot of political motivation. And in many ways, we'll align them with whoever they believe provides them the best chance at defending that way of life. And so the size of the group is important, but what really matters is do they have access to the levers of power, which they do? And will they act according to it? And we're finding that they will.

• 39:50Lindsay Graham?

  You wrote your book, American Nadolatry, for Christians primarily. What do you hope they take from it?

• 39:56Speaker 03

  My greatest hope is that folks that read the book will see clearly what Christian nationalism is. And being able to draw historically the threads of where we are today and how those seeds were planted, you know, decades and centuries ago. But what I want them to see is that the Christianity of Christian nationalism is not the only option. That there are other expressions of Christianity that allow them to continue in their faith, but that don't carry the cultural baggage that Christian nationalism has when we're talking about diversity, whether it's racial or ethnic, or how we treat immigrants and those coming to this nation in search of a better life.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  That the Christian, Christian nationalism has a fear of those groups and wants to harm those groups into the future. But you can follow a Christianity that doesn't carry that cultural baggage. And so one of the things that I've learned even since writing the book, that I hope gives people encouragement as well, is that there are many Christians who are on this journey, right? Understanding that their faith is important to them, but they don't want it to be represented only by those who want to have power over everybody else and only see one way forward where they have all the power. But there are many American Christians who want to live out their faith and maybe have political disagreements as well among themselves,

• 41:18Speaker 03

  but want to do it in a way that doesn't harm or silence those around them, that they want to live in community with others and that we can all be pushing for a common cause and a common good where everyone in America can flourish. That this is a nation that really is for all its citizens and not just a chosen few.

• 41:38Lindsay Graham?

  I'm glad you mentioned the majority of Christians who don't participate in Christian nationalism. But what we haven't talked about is any opposition, organized opposition to Christian nationalism. Who are some of the people and groups that are fighting this movement?

• 41:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there are a number of groups and people that are part of this. So we have scholars and academics like myself who are writing this. We have pastors, like a pastor friend of mine who is in Arizona with a group of pastors. He's surrounded and brought together where they're trying to think of and see Americans who embrace Christian nationalism as a mission field. And they see folks who have embraced that as people that they try to reach with the gospel, even to say that there are different ways of being Christian and even patriotic and that you don't have to embrace this. We see groups like Christians Against Christian Nationalism that are on the floor and working

• 42:34Speaker 03

  towards that, Boat Common Good, which is a group in Minnesota, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. And so there's a number of groups that are engaged with this work and saying that there are better ways to be American citizens, to engage in your faith or no faith at all in the political process and to be active as a citizen, that essentially are trying to defend this idea of we are a country of many different types of people. And it isn't just the boundary lines of our nation that make us Americans, but this commitment to an ideal that even though we may have different beliefs that we hold dear, we value each other and the human dignity of everyone to be able to participate and play a part.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  And that commitment to a pluralistic democratic society, I think, is key. And so these are some of the groups, and there are many others that we see coming on the floor and are pushing for that type of future.

• 43:30Lindsay Graham?

  Andrew Whitehead, thank you so much for talking with me on American Scandal.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  It's been really great talking with you, and I really appreciate it.

• 43:38Lindsay Graham?

  That was my conversation with sociologist and author Andrew Whitehead. His book, American Adolatry, is out now.

• 43:49Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, this is episode five of our series on the Ruby Ridge standoff for American scandal. In our next series, at the height of the Vietnam War, American soldiers launched an assault on a suspected stronghold of their communist enemy, the Vietcong. They found no soldiers, only hundreds of civilians, but what followed was still a brutal rampage that lasted for hours. At first, this war crime was covered up by the US Army, but whistleblowers and reporters eventually revealed the truth, and the world learned the full horror of the massacre in the village of Mie Lai.

• 44:28Lindsay Graham?

  American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com.

• 45:02Lindsay Graham?

  American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham for Airship. Audio editing by Christian Paraga. Sound design by Gabriel Gould. Supervising sound designer Matthew Filler. Music by Thrum. This episode was produced by John Reed. Managing producer Emily Burke. Development by Stephanie Jens. Senior producers Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. Executive producers are William Simpson for Airship, and Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Aaron O'Flaherty for Wondery.

• 45:39Speaker 07

  Dr. Seuss's Cat in the Hat and Fish are back for a whole lot of wonderfully whimsical fun. What happens when you switch bodies with your best friend? Discover a caveman frozen in ice? Or make an alien so angry he threatens to destroy the planet? Find out in Season 2 of the Cat in the Hat Podcast. The Cat and Fish are traveling the world in the great catastrophic cacophony cruiser, meeting genies, clown professors, cave trolls, and extraordinary characters along the way. With clever wordplay, imaginative rhymes, original songs, and stories celebrating curiosity, empathy, and creative problem-solving, every adventure brings something new to discover.

• 46:21Speaker 07

  It's a world of wonderful words, big imaginations, and plenty of heart for the whole family. Listen to the Cat in the Hat Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all 20 episodes early and ad-free right now.