What End-of-Life Dreams Can Teach Us About Living, with Hospice Doctor Christopher Kerr

BUY THE BOOK! "Death Is But a Dream" by Dr. Christopher Kerr https://amzn.to/4fHtrmv Oprah is joined by neurologist and hospice physician Dr. Chris Kerr to explore the mysterious phenomenon of end-of-life visitations. Through decades of research and his life-affirming book Death Is But a Dream Dr. Kerr’s work has sparked a profound paradigm shift reframing so-called “deathbed dreams” as very real end-of-life experiences. Dr. Kerr and his team have conducted more than 1,500 interviews with fully lucid patients nearing life’s end. Again and again patients describe vivid encounters with deceased loved ones that feel not dream-like, but strikingly real. Those who appear are often the people they loved most deeply—the ones who mattered most in their lives. In this episode you'll also hear from a woman whose mother experienced an “end-of-life awakening”—a phenomenon known as terminal lucidity, in which a dying person temporarily regains mental clarity and awareness, often using those precious final moments to say goodbye to loved ones. 00:00:00 - Welcome Dr. Chris Kerr, author of “Death Is But a Dream” 00:03:00 - Being present for the last breath 00:04:26 - Common end of life experiences 00:06:15 - Dreams close to death 00:08:15 - Definition of end-of-life experience 00:10:00 - Kids end of life experiences 00:12:10 - Dealing with end of life 00:15:30 - A dying patient describes her dreams 00:21:00 - Patients describe end of life 00:25:15 - Caregivers should know this 00:26:10 - Dr. Kerr’s dying father Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  You have witnessed thousands of people take their last breath. What are some of the end of life experiences or dream experiences that your dying patients have told you about?

• 0:09Speaker 01

  The most common thing they would dream about is seeing their deceased loved ones. They say this was a happy. Sometimes you actually get offended when you imply that it was a dream.

• 0:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Because it was a visitation for them.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very, it was very, very real. And they're not dreamlike, and it wasn't just anybody. It was those that loved and secured the most. There's almost this form of final justice. If somebody withheld love, one parent, they were excluded, but the one who nurtured and loved and secured was included. Maybe one sibling and not two.

• 0:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Do people show up who loved you the most?

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Yes, and had a pivotal role in the formation of who you were.

• 0:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  And in that sense, in the end, you're almost put back together by being brought back to family.

• 0:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, and welcome to the Oprah Podcast. We heard about a phenomenon called end of life dreams, which is when people are near their last days of life, they often have visions or visitations in their dreams. And those of you who've experienced this, you've had the blessed sacredness of being with somebody as they're passing, maybe you have experienced this with a loved one or will in the future. Dr. Chris Kerr is a neurobiologist and the chief medical officer at hospice and palliative care Buffalo, and his TEDx talk has 5.5 million views already, and he's written a book called,

• 1:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Death is But a Dream: Finding Hope and Meaning at Life's End. So what do you mean by that, death is but a dream?

• 1:44Speaker 01

  That there's a death that we see and we know, the physical, the objective, the physical lessening and the suffering, but then there's a subjective aspect of it. There's this inner world of dying, there's the patient perspective. And the closest nomenclature we have for that is a dreamlike state.

• 2:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Is a dreamlike state. It's not a dream, it's just a dreamlike state.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. When we actually asked patients in survey, about half of them said they were actually awake when these were happening, and we actually asked them to measure on realism. It was 10 out of 10 closest to being real.

• 2:19Oprah Winfrey?

  These so-called deathbed dreams are now being more fully understood as end of life experiences. Neurobiologist Dr. Chris Kerr is the leading expert on this mysterious phenomenon. He and his research team have conducted more than 1,500 interviews with fully lucid patients nearing the end of their life, and many of these patients describe vivid encounters with deceased loved ones.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  We were laughing, we were talking, we were eating. It was like a regular Sunday dinner night.

• 2:51Oprah Winfrey?

  They report that these visitations don't feel like dreams at all, but as deeply real experiences that can bring comfort, peace, closure for the dying, and also those they leave behind. You have witnessed thousands of people, actually, take their last breath. Can you just share for us for a moment what that is like, and it never gets old, I'm sure?

• 3:16Speaker 01

  No, it's more anticlimactic than climatic. Dying is a state of progressive sleep and of letting go. It's very hard to die. In fact, if you're not physically comfortable as well, psychologically at peace, and so people get deeper in sleep and death happens in that state. And you usually see it coming, and there just usually isn't a next breath.

• 3:40Oprah Winfrey?

  So it's very hard to die if you're not physically comfortable and not psychologically also ready?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yes. So people don't die in a wake state, they die in the depths of sleep, and you can't get there unless you're comfortable. And everybody seems to have an understanding of that from a physical perspective, but psychologically, existentially, you also have to find peace.

• 4:01Oprah Winfrey?

  And here's what you write on page 13, I appreciated this. End of life experiences testify to our greatest needs: to love and be loved, to be nurtured and feel connected, to be remembered and forgiven. They provide continuity between and across lives. Based on the content of these dreams, it's obvious that the forgiveness and love that count the most come from family. And you've seen this over and over and over and over. What are some of the end of life experiences or dream experiences that your dying patients have told you about? What impact do they have on them and also on their family members?

• 4:46Speaker 01

  When we measured this with patients, and we'd give them a questionnaire every day before death, and they had a menu list to choose from, the most common thing they would dream about is seeing their deceased loved ones. And it wasn't just anybody. It was those that loved and secured the most. So there's almost this form of final justice. If somebody withheld love, one parent, they were excluded, but the one who nurtured and loved and secured was included. Maybe one sibling and not two. We even had people who had multiple spouses, they loved the second, not one and three, the second one appears. So it's very conditioned on that.

• 5:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Do people show up who loved you the most?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yes, and had a pivotal role in the formation of who you were.

• 5:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  And in that sense, in the end, you're almost put back together by being brought back to family.

• 5:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And also, it's so comforting.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Overwhelmingly. 88% rated them comforting. And in the dying process, it was fascinating, the closer they got to death, the more likely they were to see the deceased who had passed. And those were the ones, when they were measured on comfort, gave them the greatest comfort.

• 5:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  So there's this built in process as they get close to death, they're ever more comforting. Really, what's happening is the life gets affirmed, and none of these deny death, they just affirm life, and in doing so lessen the fear of dying.

• 6:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Your research shows that our dreams change as we near death.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And really, the question of that came because the nurses that I was working with at hospice were so able to predict or prognosticate.

• 6:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  And I had no clue. I mean, this is not something you learn in medical school.

• 6:28Oprah Winfrey?

  That's exactly what happened. When my father passed, the doctors were saying one thing, and the hospice nurse said, your father's going to leave this world within a week.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And the doctors were saying he had months to live, and other family members were saying, the doctors are saying, but the hospice nurse said to me, you need to stick around because your father is going to be gone within a week.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's where it propelled us.

• 6:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  It was humbling to be consistently put in my place, and it's the inability to recognize dying in totality. So in medicine, you think of dying in terms of organ systems and failure.

• 7:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  And people die in whole, not in parts. And the people at the bedside, the nurses, pastoral care, they could see this through what it was.

• 7:12Oprah Winfrey?

  They could see it coming.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, because she said, all the signs are there.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yes, very much.

• 7:16Oprah Winfrey?

  That he's on his way out.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And what are those signs? Actually, what we're talking about, when you start to have visions of people who have passed away, that's a sign that you're very close to the end.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So again, that's happening in the context of sleep, so you're sleeping more, and within the sleep state, more and more, you're immersed in these experiences.

• 7:37Oprah Winfrey?

  But isn't that a beautiful thing to know, that the people who have loved you here on earth come back and visit you through your dreams in order to help the transition to the other side?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  You know, it's a really better story, right? For being loved and having mattered, those things are still there for you. They're tangent to you, they're proximate, and time and distance seem to go away.

• 7:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  So you can be 95 years old, lost your mother when you were five, but it's her voice you hear, you smell the perfume, you're put back together. And again, this feels virtual to the patient, it feels real.

• 8:13Oprah Winfrey?

  You prefer the phrase end of life experience rather than dream when we're talking about that. Why have you come to believe that dream is an inadequate term for this or description for this?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think in part it's because our job was to translate the words and experiences of our patients. And what they tell us is typically, I don't normally dream, I don't remember my dream, no, no, this was different, this was a virtual, they say this was a happy. Sometimes you actually get offended when you imply that it was a dream.

• 8:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Because it was a visitation for them.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very, it was very, very real. And they're not dreamlike, and there's not symbolism, they're not metaphor. Very little is said between the person in the dream and the dreamer, but everything seems to be understood. And what I think's most fascinating, I've been doing it for 27 years, I've never had a patient ask me, what do you think this means?

• 9:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Ah.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  So there's no space for analysis.

• 9:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Because they know what it means.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Well, if you saw your parent that you lost as a child, you don't need that translated.

• 9:14Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right, you know what it means.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're not looking for answers to questions unanswered.

• 9:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And also, what's important that you write here and also just said here, is that it doesn't come to you in the form of symbolism.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Like tornadoes, and what does tornadoes symbolize? Disruption, chaos?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  The metaphors aren't there.

• 9:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Metaphors aren't there.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  The symbols aren't there.

• 9:32Oprah Winfrey?

  It's just real.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  It's based on real life happenings, real life people, it's recalled with absolute clarity, they have heightened acuity, they have insight into these experiences, and they know what it means without a translator. And if you think about it, and this is very different than near death experiences, they're actually dying, they shouldn't have to do the work of process, it just should be brought to them.

• 9:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  And it's understood.

• 9:55Oprah Winfrey?

  So are dreams or end of life experiences, these end of life visitations, are they different for a child? Because a child who is dying of cancer at six or seven or eight years old, hasn't had the experience of losing people in life who have gone to the other side or who've died?

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, children do all this differently, and we publish cases of this. They don't have to work through acceptance, it's just every day is a new, it is what it is. So there's a factuality about it. They don't distinguish between the imaginary and the real in the same way. They don't have language for mortality, finality, and they often won't know somebody who has died, but they will know an animal that's died, whether it's theirs, a neighbor's, or grandparents. And the symbolism or the meaning is the same, and the children have used the same language, which is that I'm not alone, and that I'm loved.

• 10:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Right. So the animal comes back, the pet comes back.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Comes back with the same meaning, and they see them in health, and they see them well. You know, the next thing that they really often have to address, the lesion for them really is a life without a parent. And in many cases, somebody else comes in that form. It may be a deceased friend of the family. And they'll often build a world. We had a young lady who made a castle for herself and she was in the castle. And when asked what it was, she said it was a safe place.

• 11:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  And the other thing is very clear from these experiences. It informs them in a way that we don't about their prognosis and what their understanding is. So they often have a very clear understanding that they are at the end of their life.

• 11:37Oprah Winfrey?

  When these visitations start to occur.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  And what's been fascinating several is they've known, but they haven't disclosed unless asked for wanting to protect their parents.

• 11:47Oprah Winfrey?

  What does it do for you and the people who work with you? First of all, I just think that, yeah, I said to you before we started this conversation, you're doing the Lord's work out here, Dr. Kerr. How does it enhance or impact your life to be around so much death?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  The opposite of what you'd think. I think when I started doing this work, I would not want to say this is what I do for all the responses that were given. And people either assume that--

• 12:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Those people assume, oh, that's so depressing.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Horribly depressing, or you're depressed. And in fact, if you came to where we are, you would find a work culture and a camaraderie that's remarkable, that's uplifting, that's full of humor. Of course, there's tragedy, but what people miss is we see the very best of humanity. We see caregivers who find remarkable strength and courage and love. We see people whose lives stop and have to go home and be a parent to their parent. So we see, we see a form of love that's just awe-inspiring. And so I think we're better for being witnesses to all this.

• 12:54Oprah Winfrey?

  And you write about, you know, patients and not only write about patients, but you filmed thousands of patients. Why did you film them?

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Because this work was originally meant for doctors. So it came out of frustration in trying to teach young doctors that the patients were having an experience. There's more to dying than what we were seeing. You know, you may not understand it, but at least you have to have reverence for it. And they would say there was no evidence. So we lived in an evidence-based time. So we started to do the studies for that reason. Then the concern was, well, everyone would think they're confused, they're drugged, they're feeble-minded, so we filmed them just so it was very important that people heard them in their own words and looked at them.

• 13:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, there is a patient you write about so vividly here, Dwayne. Can you tell us a little bit about him?

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:39Oprah Winfrey?

  And his reunion with his daughter and the desire to have forgiveness?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  So 88% of these were at work overwhelmingly comforting, 12 were discomforting. What we got wrong was the discomforting dreams were actually some of the most transformative. So you could carry this lifelong spiritual, psychological injury that got addressed at the end. And that was really the story of Dwayne. What happened to him was he had multi-generation substance abuse. He was imprisoned more than he was out of prison. He came into our inpatient unit because he couldn't sleep. He had head and neck cancer. And he thought that he was being stabbed where his wounds were by everybody he had harmed. He was a loving man. He was jovial. He was forward-looking. He had a life he couldn't look back. And then this started to happen.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  And again, he couldn't sleep, which makes it very hard to pass. And then he asked to see his daughter. And the daughter came to see him. And we were all standing there. And he dropped his walker and he hugged her and told her how much he loved her. And for the first time, he was honest and said he was sorry for all the things that he had done. And he broke down.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  I just want people to forgive me. And please know that I was sick at the time when I was doing certain things that was hurting them and their families. You know, that's all I want. I don't want, I don't want them to look at me as a bad individual because I'm not.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  And so he was released finally from all this that he had been carrying. And then he was able to sleep. She stayed at his bedside and he passed comfortably.

• 15:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and in that reunion, she said, I don't even care about all this stuff.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  She forgave him.

• 15:21Oprah Winfrey?

  She forgave him, yeah. A lot of people are still in the end looking for forgiveness if they feel--

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Yes, and it comes to them.

• 15:27Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's hard for them to pass without it.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 15:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. Dr. Kerr had a patient named Jean who he interviewed before she passed. And let's watch Jean sharing what happened in her end-of-life visitations.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Sure. I was laying in bed and people were walking very slowly by me. The right-hand side, I didn't know, but they were all very friendly and they touched my arm or my hand when they went by. And, but the other side were people that I knew. My mom and dad were there. Everybody I knew that was dead was there. And they passed and did the same thing. Boy, I remember seeing every piece of their face. I mean, I know that was my mom and dad and uncle and my brother-in-law.

• 16:25Speaker 04

  I have seen my mother recently more. I can't say that my mother and I got along all those years, but we made up for it, you know? When I told my family that I was happy about it, and that's what they asked. How does it make you feel? Well, I feel good about it.

• 16:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. Jean's daughter Julie now joins us. Welcome, Julie. Tell us more about your mother's experience. Hi, welcome.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  Hi, thank you so much for having me.

• 16:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for--

• 16:58Speaker 05

  Love to talk about my mom.

• 16:59Oprah Winfrey?

  We want to hear about it. So tell us more about that moment we just saw.

• 17:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, so about, about two to four months before my mother died, she shared with me that she had been having visions of seeing her mom around her apartment. And her mother had died 30 years ago. So in this particular situation, mom and I were sitting on the sofa, having a conversation. And she said, you know, Julie, I want to tell you something, but I'm afraid you're going to think I'm crazy. And, no, tell me, tell me anything, tell me anything. And she said that her mother was sitting in the chair across the room.

• 17:43Speaker 05

  And it was just a statement, not, I think she is, she might be, but nope, mom is sitting in the chair across the room. And she is waiting for me. And she wants me to know that she's going to be there for me.

• 18:01Oprah Winfrey?

  What did you think when she first told you that?

• 18:03Speaker 05

  You know, I am so glad that I didn't say anything at first because I didn't know how to react. But I took the cues from her. I listened and I let her explain more about it. And once I saw that it made her feel calm and peaceful and very good about the experience, then I felt good and my family felt good about it.

• 18:31Oprah Winfrey?

  How should we react? There are many of you who are watching us and listening to us right now. You're going to be in this situation where you are in the space with a loved one who has a visitation or has an end-of-life dream, as we're discussing here. And what should the reaction be? Just to go along with it and not say, oh, no, mom, that can't be?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  It's really part of the reason we did this work is that dying is isolating and lonely.

• 18:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  And there's some data that without validation, people keep this to themselves for fear of ridicule.

• 19:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Just like your mom said, you're going to think I'm crazy.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  So not acknowledging it and not normalizing it actually is just further isolating. So it comes, some people are enormously relieved when you tell them, oh, no, this is normal. And they go, oh, thank goodness.

• 19:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  But in her case, it's so fascinating. She was just so classic. It was vivid, right? Recalled in detail. And normally seen deceased people would be thinking of nightmares and she's perfectly at peace.

• 19:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, no, I saw them all. She said they were all right here.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  The other thing is, again, this idea of addressing an injury or a wound for having lived. In her case, there was some issue with her mother. And that got addressed towards the end within these experiences. And that gave her the peace that she needed.

• 19:52Oprah Winfrey?

  You believe, Julie, that your mom had an awakening before she passed, correct? What happened?

• 19:58Speaker 05

  Yes, about 10 to 12 days before she died, she went into a coma-like state. She was, she was unresponsive. Her, her body was shutting down. She hadn't had anything to eat or drink in several days. And family was around and we were just being with her and saying our goodbyes. And she woke up. It was amazing. She, she opened her eyes and she smiled, this beautiful smile, and--

• 20:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Was she alert? Was she alert?

• 20:36Speaker 05

  Yes. She recognized all of us. She was clear. She let us know that she loved us. At the time, she couldn't say a whole lot. She couldn't speak more than one or two words, but she, she hugged her best friend. She said goodbye to her sister. It was truly lovely and such a gift and blessing to our family.

• 20:59Oprah Winfrey?

  And how soon?

• 21:00Speaker 05

  And she died the next day.

• 21:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, that's what I was going to ask. Thank you so much for sharing and talking about your mother. Yeah, thank you for being here with us.

• 21:08Speaker 05

  And thank you for having me.

• 21:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Julie. So you write that patients describe this end-of-life experience as as one of the most awake and alert and present they've ever been.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the things you take away from watching is, one, the absence of fear, like you saw with Jeannie, complete absence of fear. The other is they struggle many times to find language for the clarity and the color and the vividness. And again, nothing said, but so much there, the detail seems to be very much alive and present for them.

• 21:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it feels virtual. And that's why I think I struggle with this dream. It doesn't seem distant and tangential, it seems near.

• 21:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Right, it's near.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  In her, in case she had something that's very well-known called terminus idity, where all of a sudden, somebody wakes up. And you know, one of the thinkings is that we can rekindle or unlock our memory with certain stimulus. For example, you're listening to an old song and you remember flashback to high school and a dance. So whether these sort of dreams are kindling memory and driving wakefulness and recall, and people will plug in. But again, she did what she needed to do to close her life, which was to say goodbye.

• 22:23Oprah Winfrey?

  One of the things that I read is that you believe that these end-of-life experiences help the dying to address life in its entirety. How so?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I just think, you know, we've all been harmed for having lived, whether it's regret or loss. Something's there. And I'm just so touched that so much of that in the process of living lingers, but at the end, it often comes around and gets healed. So the physical wounds aren't healed, but these kind of psychic wounds are tended to in remarkable ways. Women who've lost children, vets who've had trouble with survivor's guilt, very near the end of their life, you know, they're granted this kind of peace. Again, this idea of being made whole.

• 23:14Oprah Winfrey?

  And is that what the dying are seeking? A wholeness and a forgiveness?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. And you know, we did an interesting study where we looked at-

• 23:22Oprah Winfrey?

  What if you haven't done anything? I don't know what I'd be asking to be forgiven for.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Maybe not.

• 23:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  But you might have, you certainly carry loss.

• 23:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  You've lost people who are lingering in your heart and they come back to you.

• 23:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  And so that's a form of healing. And we did a study where we looked at whether, looked at dying as post-traumatic growth to see whether there was positive changes in dying. And in fact, you are gaining insight and you are growing spiritually. The kind of take-home is you don't stop living because you're dying. And in fact, there's profound living within dying, like Jeannie experienced.

• 23:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I know you do, as I said to you, you're doing the Lord's work. You're handling, you know, multiple patients at one time. And so to take the time to sit down and write a book about it means you want to share it, this information in this book, Death is But a Dream. You want to share it because you want the world to know what?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Well, the intention has changed. It was originally to help doctors. And I was holding the wrong end of the stick.

• 24:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I don't see a lot of change in that direction.

• 24:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  I mean, medicine's ever more transactional. It's diluted, it's fragmented, and it's not whole-person care. But what has changed-

• 24:46Oprah Winfrey?

  You weren't able to get through to the doctors, so now you're just speaking to us regular things.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know, society, our culture, doesn't want the doctor's death anymore. They want their own experience, they want their voice to matter. They don't want a hospitalized death, they don't want an institutionalized death. They want to be with their loved ones, they want to be at home. So I think that the future patients, those of us who will be there, are having a different experience.

• 25:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Are having a different experience?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, one in which they have a say.

• 25:14Oprah Winfrey?

  And so for those of us who are in a position, there's so many people who are listening who are either caregivers or will be caregivers in their lifetime for end-of-life experiences for their family members, and you want them to know what?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Dying is progressive sleep.

• 25:33Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's- Dying is progressive sleep.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  And in that state, it makes sense. What matters to you from diagnosis to death is going to change. And it's natural that as you get closer to the end, you're going to reflect on what mattered most to you and our greatest achievement. And it's our relationships. You're going to return back to love, it's love that endures. And you know, the expression, you know, fighting the dying of the light, they're not fighting against, they're actually fighting towards. They're fighting towards trying to get back to those they've loved and they've lost.

• 26:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, and you realized later in life that you are in this work because of your experience with your father. Tell us about that.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the last time I saw my dad, I was 12. And he was in one of these states. And we fished every year up north in Canada. And he was getting me ready to go on a plane to go up north. And that's the last time I saw him. So I always had an aversion to this whole thing. And I ended up in this work, more or less by accident. I was just moonlighting at hospice while I was a cardiology fellow. And I'm seeing these patients, and the first time as a physician, I'm not allowed to sign off, I actually have to be a comforter and be present. And I saw what I had seen as a kid. And I didn't-

• 26:50Oprah Winfrey?

  From your father?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I didn't understand it. I still don't know where it comes from, but I don't know where love comes from. But I understood what it meant to the patient, and I certainly understood what it meant to their family. So again, I just learned to have reverence for it. And that's how I got to this point.

• 27:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you experienced the same thing with those patients that you'd experienced the last time you saw your father.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Well, Dr. Chris Kerr, thank you so much for being here.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 27:15Oprah Winfrey?

  And for the life-affirming work that you and all of your team members do every day, every day, and for listening to the nurses. Okay? Death is But a Dream, available wherever books are sold. We'll see you back here next time. Thanks, everybody. As always, I thank you for joining the Oprah Podcast. And if you're a caregiver at the bedside of a loved one, I hope you'll take a moment to acknowledge the sacredness, the holiness, and profound sense of living that comes with the dying experience. And if this conversation resonated with you, I encourage you to get your own copy of Death is But a Dream. The stories in this book will reframe your understanding of life's final journey. To buy a copy, simply scan the QR code that's right there on your screen.

• 28:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing, I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way, you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time, it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about, so thank you for watching and listening.