511: Between Firefights and Faith, Lessons From Ramadi to Recovery. With Ben Sledge.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe From the chaos of Ramadi to the pain of losing his best friend, Ben Sledge recounts combat, moral injury, and how faith and storytelling became his path to healing. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 511 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  I slipped out the back and sprinted around a corner where I ran smack dab into a concrete wall. "Hey!" I screamed, pounding my fists against it. "We have injured, we have injured." There was no response, so I kept pounding and screaming, knowing time was short. I was in an unprotected area and the Haji had our number. Until the air force leveled the side of the mountain they were shooting from, we would take more casualties. "Hey!" I choked out in an almost frightened sob. The fear was finally beginning to grip me and my hands trembled. We are going to die.

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Where Cowards Go to Die, which is written by a man by the name of Benjamin Sledge. And Ben Sledge is a former Army soldier who served both in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And in Iraq, he served in the Battle of Ramadi. And he spent most of his time in combat, conducting civil affairs and psychological operations. And if you don't know what those are, you're about to find out. He's a recipient of the Bronze Star, two Army Commendation Medals, a Purple Heart. He's now a writer, a graphic designer, a web developer, a speaker, and a mental health specialist. And it's

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  an honor to have him here with us here tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned. Ben, thanks for joining us, man.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. It's an honor.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we got connected through the meetings that we are currently having for the Ready First reunion. So the 111 AD is having a reunion. And if you're listening to this and you were in Ramadi with the 111 AD, whether you attached the 111 AD, whether you showed up and you were doing some work, or you're a, you have a family member that was served there, Gold Star family, you are invited. And if you want to join us there, go to Ramadi reunion 20.com. It's January 16th and 17th down in Texas 2026. It's the 20. It's been 20 years, bro.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  20 years. I can't even believe it. It's uh, I mean, it feels like yesterday in a lot of ways.

• 2:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's really weird to jump on those calls and be talking about, you know, what, what types of meals we're gonna have and all this stuff because those, you know, those battalion commanders and the brigade commander Colonel McFarland, like I haven't had a, a, a, a meeting with all those guys since we were in Ramadi and when we were in Ramadi, we probably did, I'd have to go back, I'd have to ask someone because my memory has been off. But, you know, we, we did at least a meeting a week with the brigade and the battalion commanders. We're in there and sitting around the table figuring out what's going on, what's next. And so to go from that to

• 3:00Speaker 01

  No contact.

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no contact and talking about, hey, where would be the best place to have meals, meals and what kind of tables should we set up and what kind of music should we have? It's, it's pretty awesome, but it brings back some, some really, uh, really good memories, some really bad memories as well. But most of them are really good memories of working with incredible people. So if you were one of those people and you were in Ramadi with the 118, check out Ramadi reunion 20.com and sign up, register. We'll see you down in Texas. Looking forward to it. Um, now getting back to you. So the book, so you wrote this book.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I did. I actually wrote it. I didn't have a ghostwriter like everybody else.

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, not everybody else has ghostwriters. I haven't had a ghostwriter.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  I know you didn't. That's why I brought it up.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  It's tempting. And I'll tell you, when we first, when I talked to my, when Leif and I started going around talking to publishers, some of the feedback we got was, well, you guys should just get a ghostwriter. And, you know, when I go back and look at the first drafts of that first book, I kind of realized why, but you know, our writing wasn't just, wasn't good yet. And it takes a little time. Uh, but yeah, so that's cool that you wrote your book. Um, great title, by the way, where cowards go to die. And I'm sure we'll get into what, where that came from.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Um, but.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  The book, the book is, I mean, it's a great book. Uh, we're going to talk about your relation to EB Sledge, which is a distant great cousin or something like that. Uh, but very cool to read the book and it goes through, you know, you wrote it in a style and you, and we talked before we hit record, you were talking about you pulp fiction debt, which, which is a good way of saying it. So it jumps around, but it makes it a very interesting read and you're, you're, you know, much like pulp fiction, you're figuring out things as it goes along and it paints a really cool picture. Uh, but it does give you, it does give us the reader a little bit of background about how you grew up and I want to get into some of that right now and then you can add some context around it. But let's go to the book, Where Cowards Go to Die. It says, uh, "My father was a first in many ways.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  Long before people considered nursing an acceptable field for men to enter, he stepped into the position and was often ostracized, much like Ben Stiller's character in the movie Meet the Parents."

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  That is classic. And this is what in the eighties. So this is really ostracized.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it was weird. Like I, I just thought he was a doctor, you know? I was like, oh, he comes home and scrubs and, and everything else. And then when I found out he was a nurse and I would tell people that they were like,

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that stigs. Uh, and as you said, I never thought much about it, but kids would tease me because my dad was a nurse. When you're a child and your dad comes home and scrubs and overcoat, you assume he's a doctor. So when other kids poke fun at his position, sometimes it led me to scuffles on the playground. However, when your dad is a nurse in the AIDS wing during the early days of an epidemic that people believe is airborne, you might as well be a pariah. Once people at our church found out my dad was treating homosexual men and women, they looked at him with disgust. They wouldn't sit next to us for fear of contracting the disease or getting the sin on them.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was weird.

• 6:07Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  And where's this? Where you growing up? Oklahoma?

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Oklahoma. Yeah, it's also Oklahoma. It's like the buckle of the Bible belt. And I just, and my parents met at like a Bible college and everything. So we'd, we'd grown up in church and

• 6:23Speaker 01

  I remember my mom specifically, one day we were in the car and she was like, you cannot tell anyone the wing that your dad works in, like at all, because everybody believed, oh, you know, it was their born initially, or you could get it by kissing somebody. And so, and we knew the difference, you know, we knew the science behind it.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  What year? What year were you born?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Eighty-one.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So this is like prime, everyone's AIDS horror.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it's not just like the gay and lesbian community. It, it's like drug addicts too. So there's, there's a lot of stigma that goes along with it. But my dad had always just had this compassionate heart and he wanted to take care of, you know, the marginalized. And so his, he had a friend named Dan, who was one of the first people, and this is how wild the story is, one of the first people who started interacting with men and women who had AIDS and like, nobody knew what to do. So he was running literally a kind of a, it was a trailer on attractive land, treating these men and women because they just didn't know what to do. And my dad was so inspired

• 7:30Speaker 01

  by his friend Dan, then he was like, okay, I'll start up the first like AIDS wing in, in, in the hospital. And so eventually my mom was, you know, kind of standoffish. And then my dad brought her in and she eventually became friends with like a lot of the patients who were dying at the time and like even would hold their hands. And I found her one day crying in our, our kitchen because one of her friends had died. So it was just, growing up in that manner, it was, it was different to kind of see that. And it always led me towards being a little bit more compassionate, towards, you know, towards people, but also at the same time, it was difficult growing up because man, like,

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Dude, people just wouldn't, if they found out, they wouldn't sit next to us, they wouldn't talk to us. Um, you know, I write about this in the book that at one point, uh, my parents' friends were having a vote on whether they could stay friends with them.

• 8:27Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 8:28Jocko Willink?

  Breaking it down to a democratic situation.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, you, you mentioned that you, at one point, you know, you're a kid and you tell your dad like, hey dad, can't you just not help these people? Like, I want to be, I don't want to be ostracized. And your dad says, Benjamin, he said laying a hand on my shoulder if no one helps these people who will.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  That left a pretty big impact on you.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  It did.

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  Now, meanwhile, you're grown up, you know, church is a part of it, but this is the, this is like, uh, in the eighties, you have, uh, let's see, pastors of the nineteen eighties and nineties promoted wealth blessings, politics and the shunning of those outside the church. And, you know, you talk a lot about how you saw that. You saw sort of, hey, this is, this, these, these church people may not be living in a very Christ-like way.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh, another little, little influence you had in your world is Karate Kid Part Two.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Oh, man, saw it in the theaters.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  And you started, you started taking, you say a Christian karate class.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  What differentiates that from a regular karate class?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  So it, it was weird, my parent, everything, oh my God, okay, so let's back up here for a second.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna start throwing out, because we also have this thing that you started playing saxophone because you thought Kenny, you thought Kenny G was gonna get him chicks.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  I did, I, I literally legit, and dude, the sax is back now, man, they're bringing it like synthwave and, I mean, they're putting it in like metal stuff now too, like Sleep Token. I'm like, oh, man, I should have stayed with the saxophone.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  But, uh, no, I, so you gotta remember, I, and I'm sure you remember that, and people who are a little bit older, like Gen X and elder millennials will, will remember this, like, Satanic Panic was like big during that time period. I can't remember, um, I read about it in the book, but it's like Sixty Minutes or Dateline or somebody. They, they started linking like metal music to like the occult and I was a metalhead. And then like, I, I loved like all the things that were goth and, um, and you know, like the big four, you know, Megadeth, Metallica, Pantera, or not Pantera, Slayer and, um, and Anthrax, and I've seen all of them. Um, but it was just. When you were kind of like outside that like church environment, you were doing those

• 10:42Speaker 01

  things, you had tattoos or whatever it was, it was like this very standoffish like kind of time period in in the world. And so, um, you know, I grew up thinking like if you played a record backwards, like that, you know, you'd hear some hidden message.

• 10:58Jocko Willink?

  Back masking.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. I played a lot of my records backwards.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I did too. I was just like, where is it at? Are they saying to worship Satan now? Like, but they they would pick, you know, weird stuff like Journey, like, you know, Steve Perry, send her my love, or, um, you know, don't stop believing.

• 11:14Jocko Willink?

  Like a satanic type dude, right?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Like, and the belief was like, you were gonna do meth and like stab your parents and become this degenerate. And like, like Tipper Gore, Al Gore's wife, like started a task force against this stuff. So, and that's where we got, you know, the parental advisory stuff. So, like, a lot of my upbringing was masked by kind of this, like, I had the things that I loved, but they were not acceptable because of the church environment. And yet, at the same time, the church environment that I was growing up in, um, was very much about, there's this thing called like prosperity gospel and word of faith. It's like, kind of name it and claim it. And like, if you really have enough faith, then you're gonna be super loaded and rich and God's gonna drop a Maserati on your porch. And like,

• 11:58Speaker 01

  a lot of people still kind of believe that, where they get this like genie God character. And so for me, it was, it was very, uh, difficult to kind of reconcile the two. And I was like, I don't, I think this might be bunk at one point. So, yeah.

• 12:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You name the chapters in the book. Are they all songs?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  All metal songs.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're all. So, I recognized, I think, eighty-five percent of them. Uh, chapter four is called Freak on a Leash. You know, that's a great corn song. And you talk about church camps. Church camps were all the rage growing up. I'm not sure how many I'd been to, but in the mid nineteen nineties, I doubled up. Not wanting to be left out of summer fun, I joined a friend and some acquaintances at a Methodist church camp, despite attending a non-denominational church myself. We were, we young teens, however, were more interested in girls than experiencing God. So is that, is that kind of like the thing? Like, you're going to this camp and you're just thinking, well, it's gonna be a good place to meet girls.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:58Jocko Willink?

  Do a little Bible activity and then.

• 13:02Jocko Willink?

  Hang out with girls.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like that was the thing. I knew that all the girls from my like high school and other places that were going to these camps. And and that the crazy part too is like, we weren't really interested in like what they were talking about like. Most of the kids were like sneaking out into the woods to like hook up or smoke weed.

• 13:19Jocko Willink?

  So it was like a social gathering.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it it really was like, I mean, you have to remember like. In Oklahoma and Texas and other places kind of in that area during that time period. Like in order for you to be even be considered a good businessman, you had to be a church parishioner. And so it was something that your kids did. It was kind of like this status. Um, and so everybody would go to these things. I I I'll tell you this, I I remember, um, I went to school one time. Do you remember the WWJD bracelets? Yeah, you guys remember those? Okay, I'm sure.

• 13:53Jocko Willink?

  What would Jesus do?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I saw like everybody in my high school wearing them and this this one kid, he was like super popular. I was like, oh, I didn't know you're a Christian. He's like, oh, I'm not. I just saw everybody wearing.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  Just straight up, huh?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's like, oh, it's a fashion statement and like that's what it really was like during that time period. And so, yeah, it was because of my own, um, I would say core wounds where I was like, you know, that. The guy with long, I literally had hair down here and I parted it in the middle and my brother called it a butt cut because it looked like a butt crack. And then the middle of my head, because I wanted to look like, you know, the band. So and I'm wearing those flared Jocko jeans like as the style was and like the band T shirts.

• 14:37Jocko Willink?

  What was your gateway musical band that got you into, uh, you know, was it, did it open with Metallica?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was Metallica.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  Because the Black Album came out. That was a super popular album. People like me that were into Metallica since we were like since nineteen eighty three. And when that album came out, we were like sellouts. Like sellouts. What are you doing making songs that are less than seven minutes long? But it did exactly what what musical, the musical world thought it would do is it brought Metallica completely mainstream, completely mainstream. And then what happens is people start listening to older albums and then the next thing they figure out that there's other bands out there.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:17Jocko Willink?

  Like Slayer.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And like for me, I would honestly say the gateway was probably grunge like Nirvana and Soundgarden and that, you know, all those bands were influential. I remember when Kurt Cobain died and my first concert ever was Foo Fighters and it was shortly after he died and Dave Grohl had started it. So I knew like all the history and everything. And then that just led, you know, when the Black Album came out, I was like, this is awesome. And then I went back like you, like you said, and I listened, I was like, oh, these albums are better than the Black Album. I was like, Ride the Lightning is sick. So.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  And Korn, of course, which I was, I was an early adopter of Korn. I saw Korn before the album came out in New York City in a place like, that was probably a little bit bigger than this room that we're in right now. And I was like, oh, who the hell are these guys? This is epic. Bozak, John Bozak brought me to that show. All right. So, um, this is just, you're at one of these church groups. My problems began one evening during one of the mandatory church services in the middle of the speaker's message. He asked, how many of us like Metallica's new album? Excited that someone understood me, I raised my hand. Then he exclaimed in a booming voice, it's satanic.

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there you go. And then they had a straight up CD burning like fire.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Oh, these were huge. Like, that's just one instance. It used to be like every church camp. Like, talk, talk to some kids that grew up during this area. We all have these, these memories, you know, and there's, I write about this, like, there's always some dumb kid who's like trying to impress a girl. And everybody's like, kind of feeling, you know, the weight of the message because they're, to some degree, they're emotionally manipulating, you know, you know, being in the civil affairs and psyop community, you start to realize real quick what that looks like, especially years after the fact. So.

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  Especially when you're 15.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. When you're, you don't know it then, but as you grow older, you're like, oh, there was a level of emotional manipulation there. And so everybody's, you know, tossing their CDs in or cassettes and stuff. And I had bought three cassettes of the Black Album. And that's how much I wore it out in my tape player in my 1987 Honda Civic. With a stick shift skull shifter.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  But um, yeah, so some kid would always like want to impress the girl who was there. And I remember this one kid, he was just like, oh, listen to that. You can hear like the demons hissing. And it was just, it was plastic, like burning. It was just the fire. And I'm like, I, at least I paid attention in science class and know how this stuff works.

• 17:58Jocko Willink?

  But something, am I getting this right? In the book, you talk about how you, you come home from one of these camps one summer and you like, oh, you wanted to kind of basically be normal. Cut your hair.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:07Jocko Willink?

  And you kind of got a little less meddled out. Is that what happened?

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 18:13Jocko Willink?

  Am I getting that right?

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know if I put this in the book. Um, the Hanson's came out. Yeah.

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Lord.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they're from Oklahoma. So I had the long hair. And I looked like the oldest one, which everyone thought was the ugly one.

• 18:33Jocko Willink?

  Ouch. That's gonna sting.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  And so I would get stopped and they'd be like, oh my God, are you Isaac Hanson? And I'd be like, no. And, uh, and I was just, and so a combination of that, and then the fact that I, I even got kicked out of like, I was in with like the skaters, the goths, um, you know, the metal kids. I didn't really hang out with like the goth crowd too much, but you know, um, I got kicked out because it wasn't cool enough for them. And I was like, I thought you guys were the group that was supposed to accept everybody. And so I, I just realized like who I am is not acceptable to the world around me. So I have to change who I am. And so I, I literally went to my mom and I was like, uh, I want to cut my hair and we need to go shopping.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Like this was like an overnight change. I cut my hair from shoulder length. We have photos of this. And I asked her, I said, hey, can I get frosted tips too? Cause that was in style because I wanted to look like Mark McGrath from Sugar Ray. Cause Mark McGrath got chicks. Like you could see all the core wounds like festering because of just rejection and everything else. And like I, I bring that up because I, you know, working in mental health, you kind of realize like, what are the driving forces behind? Like why you do what you do? What's the trauma? And so for me, it was a lot of unresolved issues from my childhood that brought, you know, when I finally got into healing, that I, I realized I had to, to overcome. And so

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  So these frosted tips are deeply rooted in your soul.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Rooted in my soul now. So, and I started shopping at Abercrombie and Fitch.

• 20:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, it was, it was a really weird kind of trend.

• 20:09Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to Hot Topic?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yes. Hot Topic. And what was the other one? Sunpak? Was it Sunpak?

• 20:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, probably Sunpak. Check. And how did, how did the world accept you now that you had frosted tips and Abercrombie and French? Or whatever it's called?

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I got invited to a couple of things. I remember like, I got invited to this birthday party. And it was like, and I was like, why did they invite me? That's weird. Uh, and it was like the, the popular kids. And I went and I hung out and realized like, this isn't really what I want. And I ended up, uh, discovering some friends who were like into the same things as me. They were kind of fringe. But they looked cool enough. And so we would just go to concerts all the time together. And like, I, I swear, I don't think I lived at my house on the weekends at all. And even sometimes during the week, because I was just always crashing at my friend's house or they were, we were crashing at each other's and

• 21:04Speaker 01

  uh, going to concerts and, you know, having bonfires out in the woods and, you know, souping out our trucks and driving really fast, doing all the dumb stuff that teenagers do. Yeah. We were, we were total teenage boys, just fueled by like testosterone and anger. So.

• 21:20Jocko Willink?

  And then it sounds like you had like a final straw with the church scene when this pastor was like stealing the donations of the church while having an affair with one of the church assistants behind his wife's back.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Well, and his wife, they were swingers too. It got even weirder. Um, she was like addicted to OxyContin. Like what happened was is one of our family friends had, so my parents were like, we want you to find your own path, which I, I really respect them for that. And I, I do, I'm doing the same thing with my kids. Like I don't want my faith beliefs to transfer to my kids without them thinking critically through that. Uh, I think that that's such an important, and parents put too much pressure on their children. And I think there, you, you have a responsibility to raise them. You talk about it, you know, and the way of the warrior kid and, and everything. There, there's a responsibility there, but as far as like discovering their values and their identities

• 22:15Speaker 01

  and different stuff, you can help mold that. But the issue was is, and the thing that I loved about my parents is they were like, we want you to find your own path, your own faith path. They're like, try attending a church. And so I, I go to this church, it's like super popular. It's new and up and coming. This guy had been on TV. And, uh, so family friends started going there and one of our friends is a private investigator and he uncovers all this stuff. And I'm at, I'm at QuickTrip, uh, picking up like a soda and a like Bear Claw or something after work. And I see this homeless guy and he's asking for money. And, you know, I was thinking back to my dad, you know, who, who had a

• 22:55Speaker 01

  heart for the margins. And I was like, and I just, I was like, man, I bet my pastor would just probably walk up, flash some like slick grin and it's like power suit, shake his hand and be like, God's got you buddy. And then just like nail his secretary and a pile of cash. And I was like, all right, I'm out. I was like, this is all junk. This is like, I took that Karl Marx route where I was like, this is an opiate for the masses. I was like, who cares about this stuff? I'm gonna go do me. And, um, you know, and that's, that's when I was like, I gotta get out of Oklahoma. This sucks. And so I, I was like, I gotta join the military.

• 23:31Jocko Willink?

  And luckily you had, uh, some military history in your family, which is pretty awesome. Your, your grandfather had served in World War, both of them served in World War II?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Both of them, one stayed states, uh, stateside, but my great uncle, uh, stormed the beaches in the Pacific. His name was Charlie Applin Sledge. Um, and then my grandfather on my dad's side, uh, Emmett Shelton Sledge, he stayed stateside at Fort Bliss and they figured out that he could type. So he stayed stateside, whereas my grandfather, uh, Reginald Cortland Sledge, or, uh, Reginald Cortland Whitson, um, he was, went through ROTC and became, they were like, hey, do you want to jump out of planes? And he was like, that sounds cool. And so he became a paratrooper, uh, with the 82nd Airborne and then went over to the European Theater

• 24:20Speaker 01

  and, uh, and missed the D-Day jump because he got pneumonia, um, and was hospitalized. And then they transferred him to Patton's 3rd ID in Germany and he became Patton's Scotch supplier there. And he would always tell the story and I, I just remember, he even wrote it down before he died. So I got, I was able to pull that from his, you know, his own story.

• 24:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And by the way, I haven't said this yet, uh, I'm just like hitting the absolute wave tops. All that stuff that you just said, you got all those cool stories and here a bunch of details around that, uh, your family history. So get the book, everyone. It's, it's just a great read. It's, it's a great read. Yeah. It's, it's like part pulp fiction, part just life of a freaking crazy teenage kid in Oklahoma, which what, what, what kind of a awesome, yeah. And then, and then we get into war.

• 25:12Jocko Willink?

  So that's how you end up joining the army. You say, when I turned 18, my opportunity came knocking. The old posters on my wall reminding me to be all you can be convinced me there was an escape. Army recruiters courted me, often scaring my parents who insisted I become a mail clerk or take some mundane job to help pay for college we couldn't afford. On December 16th, 1999, I raised my right hand, swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and took the lowest rank with which you can enter the armed services, private.

• 25:39Jocko Willink?

  I didn't tell my parents I'd enlisted in the Army Reserve Special Operations detachment until after I'd been sworn in. Special Operations members often use uncommercial warfare methods due to their highly specialized training, which can range from language to warfare to diplomacy. I didn't know it at the time, I just thought special operations sounded cool. When my parents found out, they were not pleased.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  They were not pleased.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  Were they not pleased that you joined the Army? Were they not pleased that you did the special operations component? Or just everything?

• 26:07Speaker 01

  So originally, I wanted to join the Marines. So I was like, oh, they have a slick uniform, you know, you saw the recruiting ads. And so the recruiters came over and just scared the crap out of my parents. And they were like, nope, we don't want any of that. And I was like, this sounds awesome. And my grandfather started to play a big influence. And he, you know, he had been in the Army and he wanted both me and my brother to do the Army. And so that kind of made my decision, but there was this recruiter, this guy that I knew, he's since passed away, and he was like, telling me about special operations. And I was like, oh, that sounds cool.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  I was like, I bet girls like special operations, you know? Again, I go back to this, this is just how stupid and trite I was during the time period. But they, when he, he mentioned it, I was like, that sounds interesting. It sounds safe enough to where I'm not like doing Green Beret, or I'm doing, you know, Rangers or anything like that, where my parents are going to be too worried. And he was like, have you ever heard of the Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command? I was like, no, I don't even know what that is. And he was like, you're going to get trained in like, things like diplomacy and languages and, and, you know, reconstruction efforts and then, you know, human, like human gathering into, I was like, oh, this, you know, this could actually-

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  That's like the perfect fit for you.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Right. And it could further my career as I go on. And I go, this is a good skill to have outside of the military. So I was like, they'll probably like that, but all they heard was special operations, reserve unit. And just freaked out.

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  Check. Fast forward a little bit in the book. I began the Army's basic combat training in Fort Benning with Bravo Company 347 Infantry. My most vivid memory is of some other kid prior to our drill sergeants at Shark Attack telling everyone, hey, guys, let's stick together. If we stick together, this won't be so bad. That kid never had a chance and neither did I. The drill sergeants entered the bus screaming, tossing equipment and privates out the back door and everyone panicked. Outside, other recruits were already doing pushups, situps, flutter kicks or running in place. Some poor kid was told to beat his face and he began punching himself. Rather than laugh, the drill sergeant screamed even more, no private dumb fuck do pushups. Which I was like, yeah, that's, that's just where it's happening.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  And I know they don't do the Shark Attack anymore unless you're there in the Marines and I miss that, man. Uh, not in the Army anymore. They, they've kind of changed it. I think they're bringing it back.

• 28:38Jocko Willink?

  Brought it back.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  I hope they do. I think it works personally. Uh, I think you have to break down. So many people coming in the military with their individual ideas and trying to be this army of one or whatever. I think you have to beat that out of them and break it down so that they become a cohesive unit and fighting force. And if you don't have that, then you're going to continue to have those individual ideals and, and like, I want to be special. And I, I really believe in the basic combat training and I'm sure you know, like the more that they are just breaking you down. It helps you rebuild into this stronger element where you're willing to do anything for the people next to you.

• 29:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they have a, the new, they rebuilt like the SEAL training compound and it's really beautiful. But one of the things, they have very few things written up on the walls, you know, some of them are a lot of things that people have heard before, like no, the, the only easy day was yesterday, that type of thing. But one of the things that says, abandon self, embrace team. That's all it says. You're like, that's the point.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  That's the point.

• 29:37Jocko Willink?

  Like you, you as an individual don't matter. You have to embrace the team.

• 29:42Jocko Willink?

  Again, you got some good stuff going on in bootcamp and you say, the day I graduated, my family received the honor of sitting in the reviewing stand. My grandfather had approached the contrare, pulled out his old World War II military identification card, which you actually just showed me before we hit. That's just awesome. It blew the brass's minds that a paratrooper from the greatest generation was sitting in their presence, so they invited him to sit next to the Colonel. The Colonel then introduced him. There you go. Outstanding. If you're watching on YouTube, there it is.

• 30:08Jocko Willink?

  Was sitting in their presence, so they invited him to sit next to the Colonel. The Colonel was then introduced him as an honored guest and war hero. I beamed ear to ear, knowing my granddad was proud that I had survived the same gauntlet he'd been through. And so, that's it. Get done with boot camp and then you go back home and now you start going to college, right?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:29Jocko Willink?

  That's the deal?

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had, I had done the reserve to do, you know, go to college. My pa- that was the big goal. My parents wanted me to go to college. They had both gone to college. My, my dad went to University of Texas, El Paso. My, um, mom went to a small private college in like, um, Bull, uh, called Bull, no, I can't remember. It was somewhere in Michigan. But they were like, you're gonna go to college. In order for you to have a good job, you and your brother have to go to college. We don't got the money to pay for that. Join the military.

• 30:58Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Where are you on September 11th?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Uh, I am sleeping off a hangover, um, with my fraternity in my fraternity room. So, and, uh, my mom called, like, kept calling. And I'll never forget it. Like, she keeps calling, so I finally pick it up and I'm like, Mom, what? And we have these lofts and it, like, we lived in this double wide trailer that was like stacked and that I was a SIG Epsilon, so Sigma Phi Epsilon and, it was ghetto. It was like built in the 1960s. It was dirty. Like, we would party in the house, because originally we were a wet campus before it went dry. Uh, I remember like kegs being in the showers and stuff.

• 31:38Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it was like Animal House. It really was. So, I'm, I'm sleeping off this hangover and my mom's calling repeatedly and finally I pick up and I'm like, what? And she was like, turn on the TV right now. And so I go to the boxy thing. I climb down. I'm like, what? She, she's like, a plane hit the World Trade Center. And I was like, uh, and I'm watching the ticker on the bottom, right? I'm, I'm sitting there and I'm like, it's like a pilot air big whoop, you know? And as I say that,

• 32:09Speaker 01

  I watch the other plane fly into the tower and just goes. And at that point, I knew my life was gonna change.

• 32:16Jocko Willink?

  Chuck.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  And I was just, I ran down the hallway screaming. I was like, everybody get up, everybody get up, we're under attack. And people are like, what? Shut up, sledge, you know? Sure enough, they canceled like all classes that day. We're all just sitting around this TV just glued to it, trying to figure out what the hell's going on. And I was just like, this is it. And then September 25th,

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I'm, I find myself at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:47Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. This is a, a chapter called Down in a Hole. Another great lyric from the incredible band Alice in Chains. Uh, South Padre Island, Texas, March, you're, you're, March of 2003. So you're in college. And in this particular thing, the hole that you're in is a, a sand hole filled with vomit.

• 33:12Jocko Willink?

  And this is, this is, uh, normally I wouldn't tell an author this, but this was probably too much information for me. You said that the, the, the puke was made up of beer and Lunchables.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:24Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, that is not the detail I wanted here. Uh, and what had happened was you're, you're basically, your brother had also joined the army.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Right. He was a combat medic.

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  So both of you guys are doing this and now you're out in this party and all of a sudden, it turns out that we're invading Iraq and that's what, that's what, that's what you find out at this time. And so now you say, just a matter of time. I told myself over and over again, just a matter of time. The call came in the middle of one of my art classes. Three days later, I wasn't heading to Iraq as I'd expected though. I was off to Afghanistan, leaving in two months.

• 34:03Jocko Willink?

  And then you proceeded to tell us about the sledgefests.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 34:06Jocko Willink?

  You ever heard of sledgefests?

• 34:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. We, we used to have something, well, Echo, you said he's got a friend named Tim. And they used to do a party called Timbo Mania.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  No, so Sledge Fest was his version of Timbo Mania.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I like it. You got Timbo Fest, huh?

• 34:22Jocko Willink?

  So you guys would do these massive freaking Sledge Fest parties? And what were you using? You're getting beer money from like your uh?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  My GI bill.

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  From your GI bill.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  I would buy, I, you know, this is just hubris gone to extremes. Uh, to where I would, no joke, just use my GI bill money to entice people to show up to these parties. And, you know, cause I'm buying all the kegs. I'm like, there's gonna be eight kegs there, guys. And, you know, trash can punch and like all this other stuff. And they just kinda became the all-campus ragers. I threw one with another fraternity one time that got us sent to the university standards. Because we technically broke into the Oklahoma State Yacht Club. And like threw a huge rager there.

• 35:07Jocko Willink?

  What part of that is technically?

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Well, we get.

• 35:10Jocko Willink?

  You either got an invite or you didn't.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  We got a key from a member of the yacht club, but it got so big and so out of control, he had to have plausible deniability. So we got sent to standards and everyone was like, Sludge, you gotta calm down, bro.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys get put on double secret probation?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Not double secret probation, but we did get put on probation.

• 35:31Jocko Willink?

  So you're doing these parties and now next chapter fell on black days. What do we got? Soundgarden?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:40Jocko Willink?

  You'd now you're now you're in training, preparing to go. Uh, classroom to field tactics, drills, prepare us for quagmires we'd be bound to face. How do you know if the person you're speaking with is a terrorist? When is it a civilian? When should you use lethal force?

• 35:58Jocko Willink?

  Tell us a little bit about about civil affairs, like what's your job going to be in this psyops? Like just to give us a, for someone that's a civilian, doesn't know what this, what this job is.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  Like what are you training for in these scenarios?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  So the thing that you have to understand is civil affairs and psychological operations were created out of a need that the Green Berets had during Vietnam. They had a lot. You're always gonna have civilian interference on the battlefield, correct? Like you were out there, you know, we're the guys that always have the TERFs, the interpreters. Some of the SEAL teams had it, but typically, most people would come out to us. And so, we're always outside the wire and always on missions. And I love to tell people, I was like, they're like, how was it? I was like, well, you either make a lot of friends or you get shot at a lot. So, so what civil affairs does is, in a lot of ways, and it depends on how much you want to get into that world, is you, you

• 36:51Speaker 01

  kind of become a geopolitical expert. And geopolitics is, is just a fancy way of, of saying, the way that geography, history, and demography, you know, population bell curves and everything dictates oftentimes the political landscape of everything. So if you look at Russia, for example, largest landmass, but most of it's not arable, and they cannot survive without the former Soviet states as a, as a barrier. You know, the czars really use that. So studying histories like that, and then also like knowing how, you know, Alexander the Great marched through Afghanistan and stopped there as far as this conquest, and what is the, the backstory and the history, and why are these people

• 37:33Speaker 01

  fighting these people groups? And, and what is their, you know, bell curve look like? So, understanding of like, their history, their culture, their background, and then at the same time, you know, they want us to do reconstruction efforts, to where you are effectively, what they always call it, winning hearts and minds, and everybody hated that, that context. But it was really true. If you think about like Ramadi, one of the things that I consistently said is I said, if we went in, like if the Chinese government came in and destroyed American infrastructure, and all of our creature comforts, of course you're gonna have a violent, you know, insurgency on your hands. But if you restore creature comforts, like water, sewage, trash, electricity,

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Most times, people aren't going to want to go out and shoot at you and different things like that. So there's that aspect of going, how can I influence, persuade, and change the populace to get them on my side? And so you're working a lot with a local indigenous population, you're understanding their culture, their history, their background, the occasion, what their needs are. And then at the same time, you have all these door kicking abilities because you're going out with infantry line units, other special operations units. Like, we worked with SEAL Team Five when we were in Ramadi. And so those key aspects help us change the face of the battle space, and especially get the civilian populace out

• 38:57Speaker 01

  of the way, so that Special Operations Forces and infantry line units can do their jobs, without having to worry, like, are we about to drop a JDAM on this house that is filled with civilians? Or are these good people that are going to give us the information that we need because we've established rapport with them? And so, a lot of people, like, thought during the GWAT that they could do the civil affairs jobs. I saw so many infantry officers be like, oh, we'll just throw money at this project, and like, we'll build soccer fields, because Iraqis love soccer fields. And I was like, this is the third one you've built, and now it's just a trash dump. Like, this is not winning the war effort, or the hearts and minds. It's not pacifying the civilian populace. And especially if you're

• 39:41Speaker 01

  not working with the tribal warlords, or the sheikhs and whatnot, you're gonna lose that war. And that's really what became the basis of the COIN strategy while we were in Iraq, especially under Travis Patrickman, who was the S5, and I'm getting ahead of myself. He was the civil affairs liaison to Colonel McFarland, who understood the civil affairs mission, and the language and the culture, history, background, and occasion of what was going on. And if you miss out on those things, or you do them poorly... You're gonna ruin the battle space.

• 40:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, it's gonna be a total disaster, a total disaster.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  And so that, that was my job and, and initially I didn't really take it seriously. Um, and then when I, you know, moved up in rank and hit, you know, my NCO, like my non-commissioned officer time, that's when I realized like, oh, I gotta get better at this.

• 40:31Jocko Willink?

  No, it's, you know, every line of operation that you're conducting, they fall apart without the other, you know? And that was a huge thing. Like there's some, there's some people that are, if you say, oh, we're just gonna win hearts and minds, that's gonna be problematic because the, because the insurgents will kill you and they'll kill the civilians. If you just say, oh, we're just gonna kill the bad guys, well then you're not, like you're saying, you're destroying infrastructure, you're gonna have collateral damage, it's gonna be a disaster. So you really have to work together to be balanced, to make sure that you're eliminating bad guys while you're supporting the local populace. And that was a huge part of, you know, for me, when I got to Ramadi and read, uh, FM3 Tac 24, which had, it was out in draft form and I was reading it, recognizing that we have

• 41:15Jocko Willink?

  to do something different. And, you know, the, the main thing that I thought and got out of that was secure the local populace. You have to make the, just what you just said, you have to make the local populace feel like they are safe and they can live a normal life. If you, if you allow the insurgents to abuse and kill and murder and rape them, they're, they're gonna cower.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  And if you have so much collateral damage, or you don't, or you destroy their infrastructure, they're gonna rebel. So it's a really fine line that has to be walked and, and actually Ramadi ended up being sort of the model for the way that is supposed to work. And like you said, we'll get into that, but let's rewind a few years. Uh, tell us about, uh, Sergeant Paul Gonzo Gonzalez, who plays a big role in this.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Uh, Gonzo is to this day, one of my closest friends. Um, and he, oh dude, uh, he, he's still in the army. Like, he's a, he was a Mustang like you. He made it all the way from E1 to E7, then switched over to the dark side. Sorry.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  And now he just got picked up for lieutenant colonel.

• 42:21Jocko Willink?

  That's outstanding.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and I was like, what do you want to do with your life, Paul? He's like, I'll probably go to Army War College and like, I mean, he's been in Army commercials and everything now. Like, it's ridiculous. But, um, Paul was the guy who took me from a dumb private and part of the E4 mafia, you know? Um, for those that are listening, the E4 mafia is like, when you get to E4, you just kind of become a jackass and, and you like sham out and do all, and you're kind of leading the other privates in like these very destructive manners. So I was like the king of the E4 mafia. I was like, how can we sham out? Oh, we're in the motor pool. No, we're not. Um, so I, I was kind of that ultimate shammer and what Paul did is he took me from this kid

• 43:06Speaker 01

  who was really afraid of going to war and he raised me up underneath his leadership and, and Gonzo like, it's kind of a bummer that he's a, he's a pasty Irishman. It's really funny, um, with the last name Gonzalez, but his wife is Hispanic and so is her, are his kids. So it's just even weirder. Um, but he's huge. Like he's a tall, big dude. And I, I wish he didn't have the last name Gonzalez because I would have nicknamed him the Iceman. Cause like nothing, but he's one of those rare breeds of soldiers that like, you can make him hump a million miles. Um, his feet will fall off and everything will suck and he'll never complain.

• 43:47Jocko Willink?

  But when your last name is Gonzo and, or your last name is Gonzalez and you're in the military, you have at least an 80% chance of your nickname being Gonzo. That's the way it works.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  So he was just Gonzo and, uh, and so.

• 43:57Jocko Willink?

  And he gave you a nickname as well. He gave you the nickname because you were ta- talking on the phone with your boys about some party that the frat was having. And, uh, he tells you, hey Hollywood, turn off your fucking phone.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:08Jocko Willink?

  So you got the nickname Hollywood. Even though you wanted everyone to call you Sledge.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I was like, Sledge is powerful and strong. Hollywood is, and I was, you know, I was this larger than life character who was just constantly doing dumb stuff and I, I was, you know, most people don't know how they're going to respond when you find out you're going to war. And I put on this kind of brave facade where I was like, oh, I'm going to go do my duty like my grandfather did and I'm going to. Um, I'm gonna show the world that I have value and meaning and worth because I'm a man now and I I'm went to war, but internally I was I was terrified. I really was and.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  How old were you?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  I was twenty one, I think. I was just about to turn twenty two.

• 44:55Jocko Willink?

  What were you scared of?

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Uh, so what had happened initially was when we were in our pre-mobilization training, we met with this old special forces sergeant. Whose team we were gonna be replacing.

• 45:10Jocko Willink?

  Don't die or the die brief, like you're all gonna die brief.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  You're all gonna die brief.

• 45:13Jocko Willink?

  So that scared the shit out of you.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it scared the shit out of me and Paul saw this like. You know, map on the wall of Afghanistan. He was like, where are all those stars in that area? And he was like, oh, that's where everybody gets killed. He was like, you definitely don't want to go there. And Paul's like, that's exactly where I want to go. Uh, and so it freaked me out. And so I started. Kind of deteriorating, uh, just call it spade to spade. I was deteriorating morale. Um, and tried to get move over to like a headquarters unit so that I could like answer radios and just, you know, stay safe on Kandahar airfield. And Paul got wind of it and and. For the first time in my life, I had a strong male figure do something.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  To where he actually showed me authenticity and vulnerability and he sat me down and there was this old area called Thunderdome. Uh, over near where our kind of like makeshift hooch was and it was all this leftover. Like scrap metal and stuff. And so soldiers would go in there and like beat the shit out of each other when they had issues. So I was like, oh no, he's gonna take me inside Thunderdome and just beat my ass. Um, but he sits me down on the bench outside of it and he just looks at me and he goes Hollywood, I heard you asked to stay behind. Can you tell me why? And like, I couldn't even look at him. And finally, he he just, he goes, hey, you look at me real quick and. He said, uh, I want to let you know I'm scared too.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  And he said, his like daughter had just been born. And so, you know, he's in newlywed. And he's like, I'm worried every day that I'm not going to make it home and my daughter's going to grow up an orphan without me. And he said, but, and I'll never forget this, he said, courage is doing the right thing even when you're afraid. And he said, tomorrow, we're all going to get on that chopper together and we're all going to be afraid, but we're all going to make it home together. And he just got up, squeezed my shoulder and walked off. And it gave me the courage and also the kick in the pants that I needed to step on that chopper and go out to the, the border with Pakistan.

• 47:24Jocko Willink?

  That's great leadership. It reminds me of Chris Cappy was on here and he, he was another reservist. And he like was, he went and saw the chaplain and said, like, I can't go, like, I can't do this. I can't go to Iraq. And the chaplain was like, hey, listen, think about it. Go home tonight. Think about it. You, you got this. But if you don't want to go, I'll, I'll take care of it. But think about what you're doing. And he went home and that night and thought about it. It's like, I can do this. So just good leadership.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you mentioned now you're, you're in Afghanistan, uh, chapter eight. It's called Cowboys from Hell. Dude, I just love these titles. This is a, you know,

• 48:04Speaker 01

  I'm so glad.

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  Pantera song. Um, so you're, you're in Afghanistan, your mission, what you, what your mission is, we kind of already touched on it, you know, whether it's an infantry unit or special operations unit, they're going out in the field, they're going to break shit. And you got to put it back together or you got to explain why shit got broken and figure out how you're going to get it fixed. How was your op tempo?

• 48:27Speaker 01

  It was high. Uh, you know, that's, that's the thing. I think a lot of people don't realize, like I was outside the wire every day. Um, I did, you know, Mike Litland's mic drop podcast not too long ago. And he was like, how many days did you spend outside the wire? And I was like, ah, like, I think like five hundred and something and he was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I was just outside the wire every day, man. Like, that's what I did. And so, cause everybody needed a terp or or we blew this this thing up and these people need to be paid or um can you go talk to this village elder and like that was the the thing that I discovered very quickly. When I was in Afghanistan, I actually had a beard.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  It was it was freaking cool. I was like, I'm one of the cool guys now. And I would wear like the little scarf and I I just wear a ball cap. Um, and go around and it was uh the thing that the reason that beards got popular in the special operations community.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  It it just became cool guy lore, but originally it did serve a purpose. Like in Afghanistan, if you didn't have a beard, they considered you a a male play thing. Um, and so they thought it was hilarious that all these Americans always had these shaved faces and they're like, oh, they're all man boy lovers and stuff like that. So um and out of that, like if you had a beard, they would come talk to you. I remember we had some general come in from Bagram and Gonzo and I were out there and they wouldn't even talk to him. They're like, this is general so and so. And they're like, I want to talk to the guys with the beards. They can give me what I want. And so out of that, a lot of it was just you know, in Afghanistan, it's very tribal. And so you had the the mullahs and

• 50:11Speaker 01

  the local warlords that you kind of had to appease and kind of work things out. And so the Americans, we wanted to build schools for girls. And the Taliban just kept blowing them up. And so we had to really work on like, this is why, you know, your women need to be educated. Kind of changing some thought processes and stuff, working with local families, figuring out who the bad guys were. We discovered a lot of caches. Uh, I literally have a photo of me rappelling into a cave from like the front of the Humvee. And I'm like in there with like a pistol and I'm like. This is like some tunnel rat Vietnam shit here.

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  I did not sign up for this.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was literally, and it was just, we found out it was just like places where like Afghans were going to hook up. So, you know, there's like a little cot down there and everything else. But, uh, yeah, it was, it was pretty wild as far as everything in the wild west. And, and a lot of times we would go on missions that were days long. Like, I remember the longest that I was outside the wire was 21 days in Afghanistan. And you stink after that point, like you'd like, your hands are black from just everything. I, I remember eating, you know, the Lembis bread, I call it Lembis bread in the M R E. It's like the soft cracker one, not the one that everybody tries to do the challenge with.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  I remember I'm eating this Lembis bread and it's like stained black from my fingers. And I'm like, yeah, fuck it. And that just kept going, it's just gross. Yeah. And so we would go outside the wire, we'd gather intelligence, we'd go to different areas. Um, patrol presences and trying to, to really figure out like during that time period. Um, you know, where the, the Taliban and the, and, uh, and Al Qaeda fighters are coming from. They're always coming from Pakistan. We knew exactly where Osama bin Laden was during that time period. Um, it was, I mean, like, we knew the whole time. It was just a question of when we were going to take them out.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  I remember getting briefings on it and, um, we were in this, um, if you've ever seen the documentary Restrepo, or you've seen the outpost, that's where my life was like, you had those bunkers. And, um, they would just attack the base. They'd just start lobbing artillery in 107 millimeter rockets. So we would get attacked like every other day. Um, and so out of that, it was just, it was kind of this, you were never safe anywhere. And you just kind of learned to live in that. And so it was like, I was outside the wire, but even inside the wire, things were just nutty. Um, so, so that was kind of my life there. And then same time, you know, you have to remember Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Um, leftover from the Afghan Soviet war. So like, there's just landmines freaking everywhere. And you're kind of dealing with that and like, do I walk here? Do I not walk here? And then the civilian populace will accidentally step on a landmine. They'll blow themselves up. We have to return the bodies to the families. So I'm dealing with like all this death and kind of destruction. People start to die around me and, and I was like, I guess this is it. I'm in it. This is war.

• 53:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And just a, a little thing I wanted to mention, but I didn't say it at the time, but you were talking about how in this job of, of civil affairs, you've got to kind of understand the geo, geopolitical strategic world. But then when you're in the field, what you have to start to understand is the micro political situation that's going on between these different tribes. And that's what you have to go out there and, and calculate and learn and understand and talk and communicate with people and, you know, ask them questions and figure out what's happening. And then you've got to take all these different elements and put it together and find out what's real and what's not. So it's a really tough job. And then on top of that, and you mentioned in the book, you're in a place that's nicknamed Rocket City. You know, this is sort of like

• 54:04Speaker 01

  They crossed out the sign.

• 54:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  When I arrive, I'll never forget this to this day. We, we show up, it's called Camp Harriman. It's, it's Oregon. And then I was in Schen, which was another, uh, small forward operating base before we, you know, called them cops and combat outpost. And but so we're in the small forward operating base and we land and the chopper's going. And I look and it says like, welcome to Camp Harriman. Somebody had marked it out and put Rocket City.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  And, uh, and so, and then I walk in to the, past the, the HESCO barriers for blast walls and everything. And there's these two, um, I'm guessing they're privates and they have their shirt off and it's like the movie Jarhead. They're stirring the shit. And, and they're burning, you wonder why we all have asthma and respiratory issues now, like burn pits. So we're all stirring our own shit with JP eight jet fuel, breathing in the fumes. And they're doing that. And one guy just leans over and vomits and the other guy points at him and laughs. And I'm like, is this my life now? So, yeah.

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  Bro, that is a, that is an epic scene right there. You showing up, the names crossed out, it says Rocket City. You walk in, there's two guys are burning shit. One of them pukes, the other one laughs at him. That is, that is. That is the, that is the life of an infantryman right there. That's freaking epic. Going to the book here real quick. We picked up a field grain officer we nicknamed Major Deathwish as a last minute addition. Our company had been lacking an officer for our team chief position and they weren't about to let Gonzo, a young promotable sergeant, run the team. Somehow Deathwish had been hanging around Fort Bragg, looking to join a team headed overseas. No one asked why or inquired as to the reason half of his paperwork was missing. They let that slide. We discovered those details when the first two weeks of arriving on base,

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  when members of his former unit halted in utter shock upon seeing him. We never called him Deathwish to his face, but always used proper military etiquette and addressed him as sir. Behind his back, we saw him as the source of constant dysfunction and utter ruin. Deathwish earned his monitor moniker from constant talk of death, absurd, absurd claims of planning to kill the enemy fighters with his K-bar, and unbridled incompetence, which we believed would lead us straight to the gates of the River Styx if he remained in charge. Just pointing it out, you know, there's, sometimes people think military leadership is all squared away and it's not. And you guys had an officer that was not too squared away.

• 56:33Jocko Willink?

  Another thing that you're doing, and I forgot to mention this, but you know, Chalk about in the book, Feed Him to the Pigs. What's that from?

• 56:39Speaker 01

  That is a Parkway Drive song. Parkway Drive is an Australian metalcore band.

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I didn't know him. That's why I didn't recognize it.

• 56:48Jocko Willink?

  Another thing that you're doing is when people get captured, when they come back to base, a lot of times the civil affairs people are either guarding them, but interrogating them, again correlating intelligence, putting it together. And one of the things you do is you talk about what those guys, what's going on with those guys? When the US military seized men for terrorist activity, they were flex cuff and burtled at bags placed over their head. What year is this? 2003, 2004?

• 57:14Jocko Willink?

  So this is early on.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  This is when enhanced interrogation was still.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  Cleared hot. Once they arrived at our combat outpost, they would be stripped naked, washed, doused with lye, and sometimes they have their beers, beards shaved off.

• 57:27Jocko Willink?

  This was under the guise of keeping lice and disease from spreading, but it was more done out of malice. Afterward, the men would be kept awake for three days while being fed a constant barrage of metal gangster rap and soundtracks of crying babies. There were beatings too on our small outpost and other FOBs. Central Intelligence Agency contractors, Delta Force, and other special operations soldiers ran cross-border operations. They were also on recon, recon missions run by Tier One, groups so secretive I'd never even heard of them. They had code names like Gray Fox and Prophet and played by their own rules. I was jealous they didn't have to put up with the big army bullshit. So any chance I had to load in the back of a Toyota Hilux with a group of operators Green Braz, I would. I was probably a detriment to their mission most of the time, given that my special operations training was

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  lackluster compared to their expertise. Still, the intelligence Gonzo and I could gather from locals through relationships and civil military operations went further when operators showed up with backpacks full of cash, asking for informants. Thus, they would bring us along once a blue moon to pick our brains on dirty tribal leaders poised against US operations. So this is what you're doing. This is what's happening.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was, it was interesting. Like, they would, like, some of the, I remember that some of the special activities guys would show up and they would just have backpacks full of cash. And they'd be like, okay, you know, who wants to tell us who's dirty? And this, you can get like thousands of dollars. And the thing that you, they did not recognize, and this is where we came in, especially understanding their religion as well, too. Like, for, for the listeners here, you have to understand that geographically, the Sunnis outnumber the Shia Muslims six to one. And so that's why Saudi Arabia claims to be like the, the center for all Islam. And you have to go back to the break with Mohammed, and

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I think it was Abu Baker, one of his sons or cousins or something like that. And, and then, whereas like Iran is Persian and Shia, and they control the Persian Gulf. So you have this split, but in Afghanistan, it's, you know, it's predominantly Muslim. So.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  As opposed to Persian, even though they're close to like Iran. And within that, um, the culture in Afghanistan and like Middle Eastern culture is, if you can pull a fast one on like a contract or your family or whatever, it's just good business. It's just the way that we do things. And so they would show up with these backpacks full of cash. And like some, an uncle who has a grudge against like his brother or whatever is like, yeah, that guy's a piece of shit. And next thing you know, that dude's getting puck, uh, flex cuffed, uh, puck is person under control. And, uh, thrown in the back of the Hilux and we're like, yo, yo, yo, no, this is not how this works. Like they're, they're just telling you this stuff. Uh, let us work our, our mission and everything.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  And so we were able to get a lot more intelligence that was beneficial to the operators because of our understanding of what was going on during that time period. And who the tribal warlords were, you know, what, uh, what were the issues that they were facing? Um, who actually controlled power and, and what was going on? But I think early on they just figured cash would talk and it didn't really work that way.

• 1:00:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, uh, something that I think everybody had to learn. I know we hit a target one time and this was in Iraq in like oh, three. And we know we get this target package. This guy's a financier, he's got a bunch of money, he's spreading around, he's causing attacks. So we go hit his house and breach the door and roll the guy up in the middle of the night. And it's a, and I'm, I go in there and I'm looking around, I'm like, what? This is a night, this is a guy is a serious financier because there's a lot of nice stuff in here. Not your normal, you know, it looked like a Western house, pretty much. China and the silverware and the whole nine yards. And sure enough, once I get back, because you know, you're doing it on a very tight timeline. Like, hey, we got this guy, we got this intel, go get him now. And we get back and, uh, you know, we start going through the intel that we, because we take, you know, paperwork and stuff off the target.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, this guy, oh, well, this is weird. It appears like he's a doctor. Huh. Okay. What are the interrogators saying? Yeah, they're saying that he's saying he's a doctor. Okay. Well, that all lines up. And so now I start going to the intel people like, hey, where did this intel come from? And I start pulling the string and sure enough, he had fired like a nanny. Like he had like a nanny and fired her and she was like, oh, really? Watch this. Then she went and told coalition forces and you know, that this guy was a terrorist financer. And sure enough, you know, we, you know, like, hey, man, sorry. Here's a bunch of money, you know, we'll give you a ride back out in town. This is terrible. That's, you know, so.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  We did the same thing multiple times. We'd have to pay people just because like we had gotten bad intel.

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. Uh, so be very careful when you, and that wasn't the op that made me do it. That was a, uh, we hit another target one time where there was a red, you know, we got the target packages, a red X on a building. I'm like, cool. We go hit the target and we get in there and I'm like, looking around like this does not seem like bad people. And you know, even as a, look, you can't tell as well as a local can, but when you go in a building, you're like, hmm, this seems very normal.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Jocko Willink?

  And also insurgents, they have a certain way of acting, at least 70% of the time, they're like acting a certain way. And none of the people are, none of them are looking at mad dogging or they're all just looking scared and like, like they didn't do anything. And sure enough, you know, Terps are talking to him. Oh, you're looking for that guy? Two doors down. Cool. So we go ahead and we get the bad guy come back and I start the same thing. Hey, where did this intel come from? Where did this intel come from? Oh, came from this person. Okay. Go to that person. Where did this intel come from? And finally get down to, well, you know, oh yeah, I'm the one that put the red X on that map. Okay, cool. Wh- wh- why, why did you put the red X? And he was like, oh, it was the center of the area we were told that this person lived. It was just the middle of the, it was the middle of building. And I was like, cool.

• 1:03:15Jocko Willink?

  I will never do another, and that's when I never, after that, I never hit an op without like knowing where that intel came from specifically. So these are lessons that you kind of had an indication of because you're doing civil affairs, because they taught you some of the cultural things. And you know, even the special operations guy, just like me in the beginning of the war, we're just knuckleheads, you know? And we didn't put all that together. So good stuff. Um, now meanwhile, you're dealing with this guy Death Wish. You say the first couple of missions with Death Wish were disaster.

• 1:03:49Jocko Willink?

  And it just didn't look good. And every time he goes out, he's causing problems. He's getting jumpy. He's getting frantic. You two, you and Gonzo are trying to go out as often as you can so that you don't, so that they don't think everyone in your unit is a bunch of freaking knuckleheads.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Incompetent.

• 1:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Let's see. Gonzo was the first to notice our predicament. Oh, this is a new role. You're out on a mission. Yeah, you're out on a mission. You're walking. Gonzo's the first to notice our predicament. Don't freak out. Okay, Hollywood. I scanned the horizon looking for enemy combatants and dropped to a knee. Gonzo sucked in a quick breath and exclaimed, don't move. I knew immediately we were in a minefield. Fuck, man. For real? Gonzo nodded in reply. Well, this goes strictly against our don't die policy, I said, trying to add some levity to this situation. The don't die policy was something Gonzo would come up with when I expressed fear over dying and how we plan to make it home alive. His response was simple. Well, then don't die. Adopt that policy. Not exactly helpful, but it made me laugh and became a running joke.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  How'd you guys get out of that minefield?

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a tough story. So I wanted to write a book that showed war and like all of its ugliness. The things that people do and people don't do. And I've gotten lit up a few times, just because I was really honest. And it's funny because I've, I've talked a lot to other friends. I was like, did you do stuff like this? And they're like, oh, absolutely. I just wouldn't write about it because people would come after me. And one of the things that, so we're in the middle of this minefield. And so again, earlier, I referenced that Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth, especially during that time period. And so you have like all these leftover mines and whatnot. And so the locals, what they would do is they would stack rocks and paint them. And usually when

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  you're above like the tree line area, which we were that day, you know, that's, that's where they are. So we're above the tree line where it's just all rocks and everything. And I turn around and I look and sure enough, we're in a minefield. And I'm like, do we do like that scene in Rambo three where we're doing this? And our interpreter comes up in the way because we had scouted on ahead in front of the 10th Mountain guys and he he walks into the minefield and I'm like, hey, man, come here. Um, and so he just walks over to me. He he hadn't noticed either. I and he didn't even seem to care. I think he noticed the rocks, but I was like waiting for him to step on one and just pink mist everywhere. And so it was a failure of leadership and

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  everything on on my behalf, you know, um, but I was, I didn't want to die. And you never know what you're going to do in a situation where you think you're going to legitimately die. And unfortunately, sometimes that can lead to some very poor decisions. And that was mine. But nothing happened. And I just, we watched him walk back out. And then we just followed his footsteps. And then we immediately went to like, the captain of this column, and we're like, yo, there's a huge minefield up here. We got to be careful. And we need to take this area down. Because when we looked down, there was just rocks piled up everywhere. So there was like, one lane that you could go through. And part of the problem was is we didn't know that this was, you know, is this setting up for

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  an ambush or something? Did they mark this area so that we would take this path? And so, you know, word starts to spread. And then our interpreter, uh, we let him know, we're like, hey, we're, you see all these minefields? He's like, oh, yeah, yeah. And uh, the front of the column like halts. And this guy's like, you know, it is like, almost if talking or breathing is going to set off something. And he's like, there's a fucking mine in front of us. And so the whole column stops. And they're like, hey, will you get your interpreter? You know, he's local and everything. And so we come up to the front. And that motherfucker, I'm not kidding you, walks up, picks up a mine, and goes, this

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  isn't a mine, and throws it. And luckily, we we discovered afterwards that the the priming charge was missed. But it was a legit mine, just fucking chunks of mine. And that was the moment I was like, I probably deserved that for what I just did when I had him walk into the minefield. So

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  You used him as a mine clearance.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, he was in it. And like, people will make poor decisions in war. Like, you know, you hear about it even in the veteran community is just stuff, obviously going on with Benghazi and kind of the drama there. But, um,

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Nobody knows how they're gonna act until they're actually in that situation. And so I was like, I'm not gonna write it. I am gonna write it. I'm not gonna write it. I am gonna write it. And when I initially was writing everything, I I put Paul in a very, you know, Gonzo in a very nice light. And when he was reviewing the manuscript, he said, he goes, Sledge, you you made me look too clean. And he's like, I have all my own flaws and skeletons too. And he said, you need to write me the way that that I deserve to be written.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  So I was like, okay. So again, great leader because of that. Yeah.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that stuff, it stings to write. You know, it's the opening chapter of the book Extreme Ownership is like horrible, blue on blue, friendly Iraqi soldier killed. One of my guys wounded, a few more Iraqi soldiers wounded. Fratricide, like, yep, that's the opening chapter. That's me. Uh, it sucks to write, but if it gets the lessons across, then it's worth it.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. Gonzo and I had been compiling evidence of Death Wish's incompetence for a while. The final straw came on patrol one afternoon. His usual brand of paranoia was in full effect, but this time he kept the muzzle of his weapon pointed near the back of my head while we drove over rocky terrain.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Jocko Willink?

  I was panicked. He would flip his selector switch from safe to semi-automatic. With each bump over the harsh terrain, I cringe, waiting for a bullet to enter my brain. I suppose it would have at least been a quick death, but still killed by incompetence is hardly the story any parent wants to hear. The army probably would have given me a slew of awards claiming I'd gone out fighting.

• 1:09:53Jocko Willink?

  And you guys basically present this up the chain of command. And Gonzo like sends you out to uh, Skin.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Jocko Willink?

  To, just in case there's any fallout or there's any chaos breaks out. Cause it's a big deal, you know, having a mutiny in the field is a big deal. And it can have collateral damage. Luckily, in this situation, there wasn't really any collateral damage. And. He got relieved of command.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  He did. We we effectively relieved him of command. They brought him back under the guise of like, hey, he needed to go back and draw these things called SERP funds, which is just more fun for reconstruction efforts. And we had a really, really phenomenal

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  company commander. His nickname was was Maximus. That was his call sign. And he he looked like Winston Churchill, and he would always chew on these cigars all day long. But he was he was very, very, very, very competent company commander. And when he reviewed everything, he was like, this guy's got to go. And the reason that he had been hanging around at Fort Bragg was of his own incompetence and that like, he just kind of like, made paperwork disappear. And then saw that this team needed a team leader because they're on short supply of civil affairs officers. And so they they stuck him in and his team, like, they gave us the whole rundown as soon as we got there. And we were like, oh, we're in trouble.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  And so we just, we started compiling evidence. We got sworn statements from some of the infantry guys that we were close with that said, yes, he's a danger to the mission and everything. And when we compiled that and sent it up the chain of command, it was irrefutable at that point. And so what's crazy, though, let me tell you the crazy part of the story. This is not in the book. He ended up going to another civil affairs team, like a Bravo team that was there in Kandahar, ended up staying there even after they went home, the army had to go send somebody and forcibly remove him from country.

• 1:11:55Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:59Jocko Willink?

  That's freaking terrible.

• 1:12:02Jocko Willink?

  Again, military leadership is not guaranteed to be squared away.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. The girls' school we'd helped build with coalition forces was now a rubble heap. As I sifted through the debris, my eyes turned to observe Gonzo. He was conversing with a member of a special forces operational detachment, Alpha Team, ODA Team. They'd been the ones to start the school project and we'd finished it shortly after our arrival. I waited for them to finish speaking, then stood. I stepped cautiously through the seared paper, charred desk bits, and rock until I reached him. The whistle I let out before speaking was long. Gotta be pretty damn demented to blow up a girl's school. No bodies, though, so I guess that's good. Gonzo surveyed the destruction, looking at me. My daughter's only a few months old. You know that, right, Sledge?

• 1:12:54Jocko Willink?

  I nodded, uncertain where the conversation was going. People back home don't understand the importance of the away game. If we allow these ideologies to go unchecked, then mark my words, this will happen on American soil.

• 1:13:08Jocko Willink?

  I nodded in approval, but felt the weight of my hypocrisy. What's your hypocrisy all about?

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Um, I had, you know, you start to get jaded in war sometimes, and it's easy to start looking at everybody like the enemy, as opposed to human beings. There's a reason, like if you've ever read the book on killing by Lieutenant Colonel Grossman, or understand the psychology of killing, it's, one of the things that they discovered was, like during World War II, most people couldn't pull the trigger to kill another fellow human. And so, the army and the military revamped all of that. And so, you start training, and you begin to dehumanize people. So, like you ask any infantry guy, you know, what makes the green grass grow? And it's blood, blood, the bright red blood makes the green grass

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  grow. You know, what's the spirit of the bayonet? To kill, to kill with cold blue steel. You know, why is the sky blue? Because God loves the infantry. You know, stuff, little trite sayings that we all know, just repeatedly. I literally asked my brother, like, you know, we've been in the military, and just one day I sent him a text, I was like, hey, what makes the green grass grow? He thought a beat, just bam. And so, you do, so you have these ways of training your soldiers to dehumanize people. It's, you know, in war, it's why we... We dehumanize like our opponents like so you know you have the Krauts and they weren't the Germans they were the Krauts you had the Nips um which were the Japanese during World

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  War II which was literally off of Nippon which was just a Japanese person we did the same thing while we were in Iraq and Afghanistan we called them Hajis um and that was actually Islamic term of endearment for somebody who made the Hajj to Mecca but we were just like oh we'll turn it into slur and just dehumanize all of them and so we've done this you know you had Charlie you had the Zips uh you all of it and from Vietnam on and the more that you're able to do that the easier it is to kill another human being as opposed to like actually seeing their humanity in front of them and so I began to become desensitized by all the death and destruction that I was seeing around me enough to where it even translated

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  over to the kids and I started being malicious to them and like kind of mean um and I realized that like I wasn't holding myself accountable I had this hypocrisy to where you know oh I'm supposed to be the good guy here but I'm acting in ways where I'm the bad guy and so Gonzo started I think he saw it but he did he wasn't one of those leaders who's just like knock it off knock that shit off instead he took the slow gradual approach and led by example and so when he would have these conversations with me it would reinforce kind of that aspect in the responsibility and what he was really doing was grooming me to become a non-commissioned

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  officer and so I began to see that own hypocrisy in in my world I was like you can't treat civilians like they just don't have a choice in the situation especially kids man and so that was really where I saw the level of me just growing more and more jaded um and a lot of it had to do with a friend of mine had died um you know in a firefight and I would go over to his hooch and stuff and we'd hang out and then um you know he came in on the litter and he was just gone man and that really jacked me up and I was just like he was here now he's not here now he's gone he's you know

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  That's it. And so I was just like, the Afghans are the enemy. And, um, and what I had to recognize over time was that I was becoming the same way that the people I was fighting against were like the Taliban. So.

• 1:16:57Jocko Willink?

  And Gonzo was leading with the indirect approach. Like, hey, man, you know how old my daughter is, right? Like, he's letting you know, man, you can't, without saying you can't think like this, which is gonna pro- might, might make you defensive. What are you talking about? That's, they did this. But instead, he's just taking that indirect approach, man. Great leadership. Um, meanwhile, he's also great leadership. He's also starting to see that, like, you're getting a little frayed around the edges. And he gives you uh, R and R.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:27Jocko Willink?

  In Qatar. And, you know, you were, you were basically, you know, you say in the book that it, you didn't recognize it at the time. And it wasn't until you read With the Old Breed, which is written by your, what, great, great cousin, whatever.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  Uh, E.B. Sledge, you know, and you, you quote his book With the Old Breed, you know, book that, one of the earliest books we covered on this podcast was that book, because it's one of the best books ever. Uh, to be under a barrage or prolonged shelling simply magnified all the terrible physical and emotional effects of one shell. To me, artillery was an invention of hell. The onrushing whistle and scream of big steel package of destruction wa- was the pinnacle of violent fury and the embodiment of pent up evil. It was the essence of violence and of man's inhumanity to man. I developed a passionate hatred for shells. To be killed by a bullet seems so clean and surgical, but shells would not only tear and rip the body, they tortured one's mind almost beyond

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  the brink of sanity. After each shell, I was wrung out, limp, and exhausted.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  I thought that was the most accurate depiction I had ever heard, and the way that I felt was from my distant cousin, you know. And it's weird, all the sledges came from this one guy, Thomas Sledge. And then he had two sons, Daniel and John Sledge, who are American Revolutionary War heroes, and their seven sons fought. And then we all kind of came down from there. And it's, it's funny, when I was reading E.B.'s words, I was like, that's exactly how I feel. How did he know that? Um, and, you know, with every rocket attack that came in, like, you would hear that whistle and that scream. And you would hear the impact, and you would brace for it, and you were just waiting. And if there was like no whistle, that's when you're in trouble like, cause that means,

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  sorry, it's landing right on you.

• 1:19:18Jocko Willink?

  The videos of World War One guys that have shell shock, that's, that's when you know it's a horror that you just can't comprehend those guys that they're just shaking uncontrollably. They're perfectly physically fine, but they can't even walk because they're just that messed up. And they would like show them a military item, like a hat, like a military cover and like show it to them and they just completely freaking break down because anything related to the military made them think of getting shelled. And so, but even, you know, I think, you know, you talk about the book that they basically had like every night they would rocket you guys around a certain time and like it shit wears on you.

• 1:19:59Jocko Willink?

  Gonzo eventually, so you go on leave Qatar, enjoy humanity for three days or whatever, normal life for three days, four days.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got to meet Tommy Boy's dad while I was there, Brian Denny, is that it?

• 1:20:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  You know, the one who's in the original Rambo?

• 1:20:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a beer with him while I was there.

• 1:20:14Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:20:16Jocko Willink?

  You come back from that, actually Gonzo goes on leave.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  And while Gonzo's on leave, I'm gonna go to the book here. "The deep divots in the wall accentuated, the blood spattered everywhere. It looked like a child had flung cans of paint across the room, which was soaked in color. Bits of human remains coated the floor. A few victims had been decapitated and someone had strewn his organs along the streets. The entire police force, along with 20 other people, were dead."

• 1:20:48Jocko Willink?

  Gonzo had returned from leave and we'd been in a briefing of briefing with the command of members of the third special force group when we got the word. Seventy to 200 Al Qaeda, Taliban and corrupt locals had launched an attack against the village of Burmel, Afghanistan. The report sounded like something out of a horror film and I was certain it had been exaggerated. It wasn't.

• 1:21:12Jocko Willink?

  So this is just a massacre.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Jocko Willink?

  And you guys, did you guys go on scene to assess the situation?

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  What's weird is like, and I've learned about this in my work in mental health afterwards is like, the brain does stuff to protect itself. And like my only memory still to this day is like pulling a human tooth out of the wall.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  But here's what, so I wouldn't have even wrote about it had I not, I, I kept a journal while I was there. Cause I was like, if I die, you know, at least people know what happened. And so I still have my journal and I went back when I was writing the book and I was like, this is crazy. And sure enough, like, and originally I thought Gonzo was not there. I thought he was on leave. And then he read the chapter and he goes, hey, Sledge, I was there too.

• 1:21:57Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  Uh, and I was like, oh, I was like, you remember it then? He was like, yeah, it was one of the worst things I've ever experienced. So, um, and you know, I don't know about the reports and everything. I just wrote what I had in my journal. I was like 70 to 200, that sounds a little extreme, but you know how sometimes intel comes in and they're like, there were this many people. And it could have been just like 20 dudes that went in and just wrecked this village. And we had just, we'd been doing reconstruction efforts and projects there and they just came in and killed everybody. So.

• 1:22:29Jocko Willink?

  You go and talk about the movie Starship Troopers and you know, Johnny Rico, how he's like gonna drop out of training. But then he sees that his hometown of Rio de Janeiro has been totally destroyed by the aliens. And, uh, yeah, he's getting interviewed. So this changes his mind. He wants to stay in. Then he's getting interviewed and you say, uh, his only word to the journalists are, I'm from Buenos Aires. And I say, kill them all. After the Bermel massacre, I became Johnny Rico. I stopped caring. I stopped feeling I hardened. I was Hollywood and I said, kill them all.

• 1:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Followed by the next chapter, which is called Symphony of Destruction.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  I thought about naming it Kill 'Em All.

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was close. And you know, there's a weird dynamic there because we got Kill 'Em All, we got the whole Metallica versus Megadeth, you know, drama between those two bands, but little, you went with Symphony of Destruction.

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  So that's what's going on. You know, you're conducting more operations, you're continuing with these, with this mission.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  And how long is this, how long is this deep into deployment at this point?

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't, I don't know.

• 1:23:43Jocko Willink?

  How long was, how long were you over there for?

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Nine months.

• 1:23:45Jocko Willink?

  Nine months.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Jocko Willink?

  At some point you get embedded reporters.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Jocko Willink?

  And they're embedded reporters from 60 Minutes, Gonzo said coolly. Colonel gave us, gave the staff a heads up the other day and reminded us to be on our best behavior. Any hijinks end up in the news and it'll be everyone's ass, so try not to do anything dumb, okay? Like hit on her? Exactly like, exactly like that dumbass. Within a day, we met the mystery woman and man accompanying her, it was Laura Logan, the chief foreign correspondent for 60 Minutes and her cameraman Jeff Newton. Laura and Jeff began accompanying us on patrols as we spent most of our time outside the wire speaking to locals. So now you got freaking reporter there.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and you know, Laura became a good friend of ours and I, I haven't talked to her since really a long time ago, but Jeff and I still stay, are close, we still talk to one another, so.

• 1:24:37Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I don't know her at all, but you know, everybody that I've talked to her, talked to about her said she was like, just epic going out on patrols.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  She was legit, she got blown up while we were there. So she came back, got hit, hit in IED and, well, it was a landmine, but bruise on her face, the whole nine yards. So she was, she was the real deal.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:02Jocko Willink?

  How did your guys' behavior change when she was around?

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Oh, we, we definitely were like.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  You had to cool out your freaking fourteen year old immaturity?

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. I have photos of her like kissing me on the cheek and stuff and I'm like, you know, and she spent, I was like, I'm gonna become best friends with this person. You know, I was like Burt Kreischer. I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna become best friends with her and she's gonna like our team. And that's what we did. I kinda like psyopter. And, uh, and she became friends with like our ETAC and because we were always close with the Air Force guys there. Our ETACs, uh, you know, JTACs, uh, ALOs, stuff like that. Um, the guys who called in all the airstrikes. We were super close with those guys and we spent like most of our time with them in the evening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, the whole nine yards. And she was there during kinda like the, the early, like November to December timeframe.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  And then left like right before, um, you know, I got injured, but we, yeah, it was like us just being, I, I don't know, kinda adolescent boys with a crush, you know? Gondo, you know, he was married. I was single, so I had a girlfriend back home, but I was just, you know, I was like, I'm gonna be that guy. So, so Hollywood was still alive during that.

• 1:26:14Jocko Willink?

  Hollywood was going strong.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was going strong.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  You just mentioned before I got injured, I'm gonna go to the book, December 10th, 2003, the small window near our room exploded in a shower of glass. The wood panel I kept in front of the glass landed at my feet with shards of glass peppering the floor. I stared at the shattered wood and glass for a few moments until the sirens went off. I scrambled and put my body armor on, thinking briefly at the cold December shrill, I might wanna put on warmer clothes than my stained brown shirt and black shorts. Unwilling to take that gamble, I charged into the open air where I found a medic frantically working on a young Afghan boy with shrapnel in his chest, gasping for air. I hovered over both the boy and the medic, uncertain if I should help. The medic flicked a large bore needle, preparing to jam the syringe into the kid's chest. I waited a moment longer, watching the blood pool in the silt below the child's back,

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  and then found my feet and ran. When I arrived at the talk and pushed my way through the bat wing doors, Gonzo was there to give me orders. Protect the locals, gather intel, and don't die.

• 1:27:15Jocko Willink?

  Little did I know that day would change everything.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Jocko Willink?

  I opened my mouth to ask for more information, but a loud, short whistle screamed over the talk with just enough time for someone to yell, "Incoming!" I flinched while Gonzo stood tall, unimpressed by the attack. He pointed to the door and gave me my orders. "You got this Hollywood, now move." The problem with war movies is they're sort of accurate. Everyone's yelling and you're hyper aware of your own breath. Nobody has a clue what's, what he's doing either. You make it up as you go, the muscle memory from training taking over. As I rounded the corner from the talk, a short shriek shrouded, sounded overhead. Before I had time to duck, an explosion sent bits of shrapnel whizzing through the air. I slowed down and my body slammed against the wall, then covered my eyes against the waning sunlight. The impact had hit the outer gate perimeter close to a bunker where the other soldiers had taken cover. Before I could

• 1:28:07Jocko Willink?

  move, another rocket slammed into the bunker, sending shrapnel and debris into its walls. Then we pressed our bodies against the side of the building and braced for impact as another zip tore over our heads. The impact shook the building and above me, a voice rang out from the radio tower. "Get me goddamn air support. They're, they're getting the talk. They're targeting the talk." Without a word, Max and I sprinted to the adjacent buildings and burst through the screen door. Once inside, we discovered most of the local Afghans huddled next to an oven in a corridor just to the right of the door. "They're getting closer. Spotter probably. We should move into the kitchen area." Lopez gestured down the corridor and made his way into the crowd of Afghans just as Max returned to the room, sipping a Dr. Pepper and grin, and grinning. "Jackpot," he said, "take a sip."

• 1:28:51Jocko Willink?

  I laughed once more, standing with my back to the main entry, just as I was about to turn and walk toward the kitchen hallway. I thought, I thought I heard the faintest whistle. Then it went dark. The great thing about our incoming artillery is that when you hear the whistle and the whoosh, you're far enough away from the impact. The shorter the noise, the better the chance you're in a kill zone. When there's little to no noise, you're dead. In my case, the rocket impacted a little over seven feet from my position. I poured my body into the wall for support and continued to wave off the scared Afghan man who's trying to help. The loud buzzing in my ears made it impossible to comprehend anything. And each verbal command I gave sounded like I was ten feet underwater. Confused, I stared at my bare arms and saw they were peppered with flecks of translucent

• 1:29:36Jocko Willink?

  black material. Absomotically, I rubbed at them, trying to move the strange material off my arms until I noticed trickles of blood forming on my hand. I stared dumbfounded, then glanced at the main door. The blast had blown out the glass windows. I was rubbing broken glass and shrapnel into my arms. Almost whimsically, I began to take stock of my surroundings as the ringing continued. I glanced around the room a few times, sluggish and still leaning against the wall. Then I realized I couldn't find Max. The only remnants of his presence were a Dr. Pepper can and splattered soda on the walls and floor. Feeling groggy in my head didn't help, which led me to conclude the shelling had vaporized him. "Max!" I yelled, as I found my footing and grabbed my right ear.

• 1:30:17Jocko Willink?

  The buzzing was subsiding, but now throbbing grew more intense. "Max, where are you? Where the fuck are you? What the fuck was that?" I moved toward the splattered soda and saw that the screen door separated our corridor from the main dining hut had been torn off the hinges. The screen netting hung limp. Inside the room, tables and chairs were flung about as if a small child had been throwing a tantrum. Streaks of blood snaked across the floor. It was reminiscent of a zombie flick, where the undead dragged their bodies against the ground and leave bloody smears in their wake. My eyes traced the blood trail to a corner where I found Max. He was sheet white, rocking back and forth and holding his arm. I could tell he was mumbling something over and over, but with my own hearing muffled, I couldn't make it out.

• 1:31:02Jocko Willink?

  "You hit!" I yelled loudly as I rushed to his side. Max continued to rock back and forth, clutching his arm. "Arm? Let me see." He shook his head in response, so I pressed. "Let me see." He reluctantly released his arm and I saw the bloody mess above his sleeve. Inwardly, I cursed. "My elbow, he said, I think it's broken." This was the phrase he would continue to repeat for the next several minutes, sometimes peppered with profanity. Not wasting my time, I pulled a black steel dagger from my body arm and sliced to open the sleeve. Above Max's elbow was a sloppy mess of muscle, tissue and fat. The wound looked like a pop can had exploded in his tricep. Of one of the greatest gifts of my military, the military can give you is muscle memory.

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  When you practice the same drills over and over, instinct takes over. So I knew two things about our situation. One, Max was slipping into shock and two, I had to get him to a safe place and patch his wound. My many years of training kicked in and I put his other arm around my neck and began to lift him. "We gotta move, we're gonna get blown up again, they got us zeroed," I told him. The panic in my eyes was evident as the red stain on Max's makeshift bandage spread. His skin turned a sickly white and his breathing was labored. I was heaving under the weight of body armor and my hands continued to tremble. I was still trying to still the tremors, I clenched and unclenched my fists while staring into his glassy eyes. Next to me Lopez crouched, a look of concern and puzzlement on his face as he examined the wounded soldier.

• 1:32:30Jocko Willink?

  He abruptly stood then pointed at the front door where Max and I had received the brunt of the Chinese-made artillery shell. "We can reach triage that way. Get the medics?" My hands continued to tremble. I'd been in combat before, so why was the fear gripping me so intensely now? I gave into the cowardice, eking its way through my body and directed Lopez. "Your turn to get blown up, bro, I'll stay with Max." Lopez hesitated, boots shuffling on the dusty floor. I imagined he was having the same psychological argument in his mind that I'd had. Then he nodded and ran out the door.

• 1:33:09Jocko Willink?

  I continued to talk to Max, whose head lulled like a drunk's hoping medical aid would arrive. This time, where was he hit? Where's he hit? Two medics entered the room huffing and sweating despite the winter chill, Lopez in tow. Before I could respond, they spotted the bandage and blood smears. Max's head lulled to the side while he went in and out of lucidity. "He's gonna die, he's gonna die, he's gonna fucking die." The record track in my mind was cruel as I loomed over my friend. In the distance, a low rumble began to build, and each man's head perked up like a prairie dogs in response. Our salvation was at hand. Helicopter. The medics had already began packing their equipment. We have to get him to the LZ. He has a medevac now and he needs it.

• 1:33:54Jocko Willink?

  Sledge, shaken from the trance, I ran to the room where we got to work creating a litter to carry. Max, whose clammy skin made him look more like Casper, the friendly ghost in humor. Last thing I told him before we carted him off was the same thing you tell every dying man. You're gonna be okay. Promise.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  Gonzo found me after I watched Max's helicopter fade to the dimming horizon. I clutched absently at Max's rifle for a long time, the emptiness filling me.

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  The base medic diagnosed me with a concussion, and once my hand swelled, he splinted the arm and requested another medevac. I protested and tried to argue that it was nothing more than a few bumps and bruises. They disagreed.

• 1:34:36Jocko Willink?

  I was to be sent to Kandahar. My tour of duty had ended.

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  So that moment that you reflect back on a lot in the book is the moment where you tell Lopez, like, you guys need medics. You're all in the same room. And he looks at you like, hey, get medics. As if you, Ben, go and run and get us some medics while we're getting bombed. And you looked at him and said, it's your turn to take the freaking risk. You go.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Jocko Willink?

  Um, and you've, you know, when you reflect back on that, you feel like you are, you didn't behave the way you would have wanted to in that moment.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, human nature is this, you know, you're, you're either gonna fight, you're gonna flee, or you're gonna freeze. And people freeze up in combat. You know, I think one of the things that I really loved about the movie Warfare is they showed that. And I was like, it happens to the best of us. Like, you just don't know. And I had been in a couple of firefights before that, you know, I'd been shelled, and I was fine. I knew, I knew what I was doing. But like seeing your friend wounded and bleeding out and and initially, you know, I I was had that huge adrenaline dump and that's why I ran out the back door and I hit that wall. And that wall was like the same wall that just shut me down mentally because we had erected

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  this barrier for for blasts and uh you know, I'm pounding on that wall just screaming and then I sprint back and that other rocket comes in knocks me to the ground and that's when I burst through the door and I'm just like that's that's when like all the fear took me. And so I was like, I'll stay and patch him up. It's your turn to get destroyed dude. And Lopez really was. He was the hero, man. Um, you know, they they put us both in for Army combination medals with Valor Devices, which the top brass in um.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  Bog some air conditioned talk.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it fun fun fact, you know who downgraded him? Lloyd J. Austin.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude. He signed my Purple Heart, but downgraded my my RCOM to just uh an Army combination medal. So it reads really funny. Um, I have a friend who's a Black Hawk pilot because I live on the footsteps of Fort Carson. I'm on base and he came in and I I have my citations in my office and he was reading it and he goes, oh, man. And I go, what's wrong? He goes, I have an RCOM. And I was like, that's awesome, dude. What'd you do? And he goes, I just got it for flying a helicopter and doing my job. And he's like.

• 1:37:18Jocko Willink?

  Just so everybody knows, you can get an RCOM for like filling out the right supply forms. You know, you can get an RCOM for like for, you know, doing good on the uh on the uniform inspection. You can get an RCOM. So the fact that you got an RCOM for that and I'm an RCOM with V is is pretty freaking crazy.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, I mean.

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Especially when you're getting a simultaneously getting a Purple Heart. That kind of indicates that you're in the shit, at least some level of the shit.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  The way that the citation reads is so ridiculous. Like, one of my Marine Corps buddies came over, he was in Ramadi with me and uh and he goes, for meritorious service while getting injured? He was like, he was like, yeah, because they train you for that. Like, um, but yeah, so when I when I froze up, I was just like.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Honestly, I think Lopez was the real hero in there, but I don't feel as bad as I do about it now because like when the medics came in there, they were so frazzled, none of us could start an IV, their hands just kept shaking. And they just kept trying to approach and everything keeps blowing up and they're just, you know, every, and I'm like, let me try and I can't do it. So finally, like, once we had the nine line in, that's when, you know, and, and the kid, for those that are wondering, he survived too. He, he was on the, the deal and Max survived, like, and Max and I are best friends to this day. Like, he just moved back to Colorado. He finally retired out of the army. He joined, uh, clandestine,

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  like, special operations unit out of the, out of JSOC, Joint Special Operations Command. So that's not his real name, so don't go looking for him. Um, he has like no digital footprint either. Um, so he's, he's just one of those guys and we've, we've remained best friends to this day. Like, our goal in life is to eventually retire and then just work together at a brewery pouring beer for people. Like, that's, that's our goal. Just like, keep it chill. Just be those old war vets that are just kinda salty, but like, like to talk to people at a brewery. Yeah.

• 1:39:19Jocko Willink?

  Um, you got this, this buddy, Kyle.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  Who's, I guess his real name is Danton?

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, Danton Kyle Sight Singer.

• 1:39:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh, he's a, gotta be careful with this. He was a Marine. He's always a Marine, of course, but, uh, he served in the Marine Corps and then became a soldier. He's a friend of yours and he's a friend of the family. Um, and he, so he ends up joining the reserves like you. And what, you guys are both from Oklahoma?

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:52Jocko Willink?

  So just give us, give me a little background on the connection between you two.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  So Kyle, I had met, he went by his middle name. I met him at my uni and he was larger than life too. But he was one of those guys that was had was just infectious to be around. Everybody loved Kyle, like everybody. Even if he was just doing ridiculous, jacked up stuff. They were like, oh, man, he's he's funny. He's a funny guy and he's a fellow metalhead. You know, we get along great. He wants to be a journalist and an author. And so he's going to college for for journalism. And he had done like covered the Miss America pageants down in like Panama and like everything. And so we become close and then he becomes close with my parents.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  And so he starts, I mean, even while I'm away at college in different places, like he starts like coming over to visit my parents. And he has his own key to our house. He'll just stay the night there. And my mom, my dad would always like cook salmon every time they would come over. That was like their signature dish altogether. They all loved it. Just like some, you know, some smoked salmon, grill it up. And the first thing that he would do when he would walk in the house now, mind you, you know, my parents were like super religious while I was was growing up and they they've since chilled out and they're they're awesome like and we have such a great relationship. My my mom and my dad and I. He would, he would literally drop his pants and moon my mom the minute he walked in the door.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  They had this like tattoo on his ass and everything. And my dad was just would always just be like, oh, my God, Kyle, like. But and he'd slap his ass in front of my mom and be like, you like that Debbie? And so he just, he became my mom's third son. So she was just so, so, so close with him and, you know, had had her own relationship with them and and just considered him part of the family. So we we had, we were just kind of like inseparable. And then I got injured and so I spend my last month. Cause they they had said, you can go home like you're dead weight. And I was like, ah, I'll do what I originally was gonna do. I'll stay in the headquarters element in Kandahar and I'll answer phones like radios.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  And I was carting interpreters around and that was really difficult because my in right arm was broken and they had they had cast it. And so it was like this where I was doing a thumbs up like I was the Fonz the whole time like, hey, you know. But you know, the Hiluxes over there have, you know, the driver's side on the right side, and it's a stick shift. So I'm like, my arm's broken. I'm like trying to stick shift and do this, and I'm like having to like move these interpreters around. And so I ended up staying, and then Kyle came to replace us because we were getting replaced by, we're doing left seat, right seat with guys from our unit. And so he had actually been on stop loss because,

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  you know, at that time period, you have a two-front war going on. They need soldiers that are highly specialized in specific areas. So you can't even leave if you're gonna get out. So he had wanted to go over to the Navy and do journalism, but he got stop loss, found out like, hey, you're going to Afghanistan. And so he comes in to replace my team.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  And you guys actually see each other in Kandahar?

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:11Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna go to the book here. Kyle turned to face me, his usual playful demeanor gone, searching my face for answers. I'm just worried about dying and leaving my family to deal with the wreckage. I knew the feeling, but in war, it served no purpose. Now was time to shoot him straight. He needed the truth. You're dead anyways. I responded with cold, calculated precision. It was Kyle's turn to frown, but I continued, undeterred by his countenance. The minute you walked into theater, you became a dead man walking. There are no guarantees in combat. You're always one rocket or bullet away from a dirt nap. The trick is convincing yourself that you're already dead so that every day you wake up breathing, it's a gift. Dead men have nothing to fear, so the sooner you make your peace with death, the faster you'll be able to do your job. Despite the truth of

• 1:43:56Jocko Willink?

  these words, I've regretted them every single day of my life since. I wish I hugged Kyle and said something comforting like, bro, you got this. Maybe you'll even get to see Tina Turner while you're out here. I wish I had told him that he was my best friend and that I loved him, but I didn't. Instead, my last words to one of my best friends were nothing more than to prepare for his demise and not be a pussy about it. The next morning, he would board a helicopter out to the border areas, and I'd be in a C-130 military transport headed for Fort Pore Bearfield. I got word while at Fort Bragg. I'd been on the phone with my mom when Kyle's dad called her. Once she switched back over, there was only wailing. It was eerily similar to the noise the old man in the mountains had made when we killed

• 1:44:40Jocko Willink?

  his teenage son. Between sobs, my mom choked out.

• 1:44:45Jocko Willink?

  Kyle's dead.

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  So. You get home and that's where you get home to.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's it's brutal.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Tore his family apart.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mom and I, we we still, you know, we every Memorial Day, we'll we'll drink beer and his favorite beer was Corona. So like we would just drink Corona with him. And in honor of him, but the last thing that he gave my mom.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  Is this stupid fresco painting from Panama when he was covering the Miss America pageant? And he told my mom, he's like, you gotta keep this for forever because you'll remember me by it. And she's like, Kyle, this is ugly. This is disgusting. I'm never gonna keep it. Well, now it's like. Probably display it in the house and it looks weird and out of place. But it was it was really tough on our family, tough on his family. I had to present his awards to his parents.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  I mean, it it was it was rough, really rough, and I blame myself, you know? I was like, it should have been me. You know, I was the guy that got injured. He was there a week and and we all know the statistics like in the military. The first, you know, ninety in the last ninety. That's when you're most likely to get killed. It's either because you're fresh and new or you get complacent at the end.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  And, man, I really, really struggled after I got home. And that's that's just like when my mental health deteriorated and I was like. My so I was like, I come back home and this is the crazy part. So when I was going to college and doing the whole reserve thing and everything. I I had dropped out of college at three times now at this point. So I drop out to go to the John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center in school. I get back, I'm home for three months. I get orders for Defense Language Institute out in Monterey Bay, California. So I have to drop out again. I come back home. I'm home for three months. That's when I'm in South Padre Islands. Like you're going to Afghanistan. So finally, I'm like, I I gotta do something. And my parents were like, why don't you take a semester off or whatever?

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  You know, deal with Kyle's death. And I'm like, no, I gotta go back to school. I I I gotta do something normal. I gotta put this behind me. And it just, you know, it comes to your head. So, you know, you're partying in college and then suddenly you're partying to bury your friend's loss. You're partying to bury what you've seen. You're, you're partying to just quell all those, you know, images and demons inside your head. And it just got to the point where it got worse and worse and worse. And eventually like kicked in my girlfriend's door one night, threatening everybody. My roommate finally like tackles me, pulls me to the ground and the next day,

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  my parents, my friends, my fraternity brothers and my girlfriend and her friends are sitting in the living room when I wake up and they have staged an intervention.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  And I'm like, I fucked up. Bad.

• 1:48:03Jocko Willink?

  Was, did this, did they send you to rehab or what was the intervention? Just like get your shit together?

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was get your shit together. They're like, you need counseling. Like you gotta go to counseling. I was like, real men don't do counseling, you know? And I realized at that point, like I was hurting everybody that I love because I, I wasn't dealing with what had happened overseas. You know, I'm, I'm 22. Like, and I, you know, people had started calling me hero and I felt like it is coward. And I'm blaming myself and like my friend's dead.

• 1:48:35Jocko Willink?

  And you're in the reserve, so you're not, you're just around a bunch of civilians.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  I'm just around a bunch. I don't have the dudes that I was with overseas to like kind of process and, you know, we have our drill weekends and stuff and, and we're, we're training and doing more for war and whatnot, but I, and I didn't want to talk to them about it because I was like, I'm going to lose my security clearance. This is going to be an issue. You know, they're not struggling, probably not. And finally they were like, we need you to start doing counseling.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you have a good, uh, well, I hate to call it a good line, but it's a good, good couple of lines in the book. You say, I rationalized that if I could leave the war behind, I could get on with my life, but the war was not done with me. And that's when you go into this kind of just disaster zone of freaking Percocet and booze and the whole nine yards.

• 1:49:25Jocko Willink?

  It's so lofted opioids, the whole nine yards. I mean,

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Nobody knew like this was at this is before, you know, the opioid epidemic. And so I I would literally just take my my army paperwork about how I got injured in combat. I was like, I'm hurt. I have shrapnel wounds and my and, you know, TBI or whatever.

• 1:49:47Jocko Willink?

  The pharmacist is doing you a huge favor.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's doing, oh, we got you. Yeah, like, and they're just giving me drugs and I and when that ran out, I just started buying from people on campus, man. Like, straight up addict. And had to quit because like they they eventually put me on, you know, SSRIs for post traumatic stress. And the the thing is, though, that I realized, like, everybody wants to label everything like post traumatic stress. And we do this weird thing like in the military where it's not that. Post traumatic stress is a it's a stimuli based on a traumatic incident. So, you know, women, the the traditional thing you've always heard about women who are raped in a dark alley don't want to go down a dark alley.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  You know, vets don't like being around fireworks if it sounds like, you know, and so you do these things called exposure stimuli. Is one of the ways that you can overcome post traumatic stress. It's small incremental, you know, exposure to whatever that traumatic incident was. And now you have people getting out of the military who've never served a day in combat. And they're getting labeled with post traumatic stress. And I'm like, do I I know so many in like Colorado Springs. I was like, this is ridiculous. And what they're really dealing with is transition disorders. And it's because they had everything, that cohesive camaraderie, the brotherhood, the sisterhood in the military. To where they had somebody who had their six, you know, they've always got their back. They know exactly what they're doing day in and day out.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  Then they go into the corporate world and instead of people having their back, coworkers are trying to, you know, get ahead of them. And then the CEO is trying to make as much profits as possible and it's everything antithetical to the the military and they start to struggle. And so they're like, oh, I have post-traumatic stress. And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. But for a lot of combat veterans, I, what I've discovered is, is we deal with what's called moral injury. And that's the psychological damage and shame that occurs when you have to do things that violate your sense of right and wrong. And it's everything you see in a, you know, large scale combat operation, dead people, shooting a woman or child, you know, that has like a suicide vest on or something of that nature.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  It's, you know, you know, having to pull the trigger yourself, like, and reconcile your humanity after that. And so we live with the consequences of those actions. And so the VA and other people started labeling it complex post-traumatic stress disorder. I'm like, that's not it. It's, it's moral injury. And so even though I went in for post-traumatic stress counseling, what I was really dealing with was moral injury, you know, Kyle's death, what I had done overseas, what I had seen, that the choices of my actions, like leading that interpreter into that minefield, like, that's moral injury. I did things that violated my sense of right and wrong. And so I, I met with a counselor there and started going weekly and it was, and it was good.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  And, but I didn't feel like I could be fully honest. So I didn't really fully heal. And then like the strangest thing happened, and I'm sure you know this feeling, you start to miss war.

• 1:52:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, luckily for you, the good old United States of America had more for, more, more of it for you.

• 1:53:00Speaker 01

  They had 20 years of it, baby.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  Gonzo, yeah, Gonzo rolled up and you're like, hey, dude. He's like, hey, we, we can go to Iraq. Takes him all of three minutes to convince you or whatever, that, hey, we can make this happen. And, um,

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  I still can't believe I did that.

• 1:53:14Jocko Willink?

  Sure enough. Yeah, here you are. The condition that you're in, what will help me out is more war.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:22Jocko Willink?

  So you guys show up and of course you show up in Ramadi. Fast forward a little bit, everyone calls it the meat grinder. Lance Corporal Zachary Borley told us, we had an IED on our first mission out. Wegener and I glanced at each other with eyebrows raised. Route Michigan was the major thoroughfare in Ramadi and it was loaded with IEDs. In fact, six to 10 kilometer stretch that ran through Ramadi was the most IED in all of Iraq when we arrived.

• 1:53:48Jocko Willink?

  That's always reassuring.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  You remember that? Like, it was just permanently.

• 1:53:51Jocko Willink?

  Do I? Do I remember it? Yes, I remember it.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  It's just black.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  It's just like.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  You don't go down.

• 1:53:57Jocko Willink?

  ID's a day. And actually, one, one time I went down Route Michigan, I was in a Buffalo, like, one of the mine-resistant vehicles. And I, you know, I was just a passenger. So I'm like in the back, and it's huge. And it's massively like, mine-resistant. And they were, there's white lights, they're just looking at the ground. But it was the cool, it was the weirdest thing, because it was the only, you know, when you're in a Humvee, freaking scared shitless, and you're freaking looking out the windows, and you're like, waiting to get blown up. And you can't really see that well, because you're, you know, you're hunkered down, your night vision sucks. So here we are, going three miles an hour, down Route Michigan, white lights on. And it was just such a trip, but it was, but as you,

• 1:54:42Jocko Willink?

  but what I remember about it is, there's just freaking crater holes.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Everywhere.

• 1:54:47Jocko Willink?

  Everywhere. And, you know, seven to 10 ID's a day. So yeah, do I remember it? Yeah. Whoever's it.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  I just can't believe they got blown up in a bucket truck. They just put sandbags in. Like, that's the dumbest thing. Marines would do some crazy stuff sometimes. They're like, just go out and draw fire. And I was like, that's a terrible idea.

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we had one of those trucks, too. Like, you know, everyone thinks the SEALs being all high-speed. Yeah, one of our insertion vehicles was the freaking seven-ton, with sandbag floors and whatever, half-inch steel on the sides. That was it.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:20Jocko Willink?

  Terrible protection from someone tossing, like, no one ever tossed a grenade in there, but that would have been freaking horrible if someone did. But yeah, that's like where you're at. That's what we got. That's what we're doing. You gotta take a bunch of Jundies out to hit a target. Well, we only have so many Humvees. Okay, cool. Or we're going out with Jundies to a target. They're taking a seven-ton. Guess who's getting in the back of the seven-ton with them? Like, I was, I was looking at some old pictures the other day, I saw some of the guys from my, from my task unit, like, just it, you know. Probably three SEALs in the back of a seven ton with whatever 32 freaking Jundies. And I'm like, yeah, that's just getting some, you know, again, everyone thinks the SEALs are just out there doing all this high speed stuff.

• 1:55:59Jocko Willink?

  It's like, no, this is called counter insurgency operations and foreign internal defense and training up the Iraqi army soldiers to be able to handle violence in their country. And there's three of my guys in the back of a seven ton rolling out into the Malab district to get some.

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:56:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:19Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit, Story and Borley were two of the civil affairs Marines. We'd been, we'd begun working alongside when we landed in Ramadi. They however, went by CAG, which stood for civil affairs group, which we found confusing because CAG also also stood for combat applications group, which is the tier one element from the army. In pop culture, CAG is more commonly known as Delta Force. To differentiate themselves, the Marines adopted a call sign Berserker and painted the Norse gods Thor and Odin in each of their vehicles. This would become our call sign as well as we'd form, as we integrated with the team. So that you guys went embedded with these Marines.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we worked a lot with the Marines. Like I, I mean, that's why I have a Marine Corps tattoo. It's one of my combat patches, but I love Jarheads, man. They were, they were awesome.

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  They're awesome.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  I'm still close with, with Borley and Story. Um, you know, you just had Scott Husing on here. He was one of the commanders for a clearing operation that I did and I worked with two four. Um, that's when we were out for Christmas and that was uh, just a wild time. Um, but yeah, like I, I'm, I have so much respect for those guys. Um, and just the, the Marine Corps. And uh, I'm actually a life member now of the two four association. They were like, oh yeah, you can join because you were with us in Ramadi. I was like, okay, cool. I guess. Does that mean I eat crayons now?

• 1:57:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, you got the tattoo. So I mean, what up? And again, it's going now you're in a very urban environment in Ramadi. It's a city. You end up working with the various, you know, various, because you can get called out at any time. You know, this is one of the like, like being in a situation like you're in where you have interpreters, you have a skill set that other people don't have in their battalions or companies inherently. So when someone needs an interpreter or someone accidentally freaking, you know, blows up a wall or purposely blows up a wall, but then they realize, oh, now the wall's got to get fixed. You know, who are we going to call or a civilian gets wounded, who are we going to call?

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what you guys, you guys become like the, the ambulance, you know, nine one one for whenever there's an issue out in the city and this puts you in the field all the time.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, we just ran missions every single day. So we would have to go, you know, with infantry line units because they would need us. So we would just get the briefings. We'd have to put in the frequency hops the night before, um, get everything ready to go. I mean, we, we were staged every single day and I didn't think anything was out of the ordinary for that because I was like, oh, this is my job. This was and until I like got home and people are like, how many days did you spend outside the wire? And I was like, that was dumb. So I was like, I picked the wrong job. So.

• 1:59:01Jocko Willink?

  You have a like a whole section where you're talking about Ramadi, what it was like. And I'm just going to like, read some highlights, war zone, sewage, trash, bullet holes, pockmarks, explosions, IEDs, snipers. That's Ramadi, fear and adrenaline, right? Um, that's what you're dealing with. And you know, when you, when you start talking, again, you, you mentioned this earlier in Afghanistan, that you talk about the civilian populace, there's like 300,000 civilians in the city of Ramadi. There is a government and there's a government that's trying to function. There are the tribal sheiks that are. You know, some of them had fled, some of the like, I think eight of them had been murdered.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  So, but there was some of them were now trying to step up, especially in the timeframe that you're there. They're starting to step up and they're starting to get their people trained. But it is, there's a lot of friction and there's a lot of problems that can ensue. You know, if you're out, if a civilian gets killed, it is like a nightmare.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04Jocko Willink?

  Um, it's a setback for the strategic, you know, goals that we have.

• 2:00:10Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's the local populace, like they would come to the gate and if, when civilians got killed, they would come to the gate and like protest. It's.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  Oh, I remember that. I had forgotten about that.

• 2:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So it's like a severe situation and yet you're the guys that are the ones that have to go out there and mop it up if it happens. I don't know if you guys had to deal with that.

• 2:00:31Speaker 01

  Oh, all the time. We, I think the worst things that, and this goes back to moral injuries. Uh, we had to pay families for their kids that had got killed. Like, hey, sorry, we accidentally killed your kids. Here's 10 grand. Like, how do you live with that? So.

• 2:00:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it's just awful.

• 2:01:00Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of the, uh, you know, that's one of the, I've, I always tell people like, oh, if you think you're going to go to war, if you think you want to go to war, you better recognize that Americans are going to die. And enemy are going to die and civilians are going to die. And anybody that thinks it can be so surgical that no civilians, and look, America goes through the, the, the most extreme efforts to prevent civilian casualties. I mean, it's, it's, it's awe inspiring to see the efforts that get made to make sure that no civilians get killed.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:01:36Jocko Willink?

  But civilians are going to get killed.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  They're gonna die.

• 2:01:39Jocko Willink?

  And it's awful. And you know, that's one of the things like you, like you mentioned, that's one of the things that it's just unavoidable in these scenarios. Um, and you guys are the ones that have to go out and try and, you know, like you said, it's a reimbursement, which again, that does sound cold to Americans. It sounds colder than it, than it is for them. For them, it's like, that's part of the way the culture works. Like, oh yeah, we get this. Um, doesn't make it any easier. Um,

• 2:02:11Jocko Willink?

  fast forward a little bit. Um, oh, I gotta mention this guy, Sergeant, First Sergeant John Batista, because he sounded like he was just a stud.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's cool dude. That's not his real name, but.

• 2:02:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool.

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  Then you say, another soldier I came to respect and admire was Captain Travis Patrick Quinn, former special force soldier, he became the civil military operations officer, first brigade, first armored division, that oversaw all of Ramadi, the Marines and TF177, having a fellow soldier who understood civil affairs mission so well, made our jobs easier, and I had the honor of attending a hilarious briefing, which he used PowerPoint slides full of stick people to teach the command staff how they could win now, Amber province. I've talked about this a bunch on the, on the podcast with, basically with everyone that's been to Ramadi. Everyone knew Travis, Travis, Travis Patrick Quinn's plan was simple, win over the local sheiks, recruit his men to the Iraqi police, dump money into civilian military projects that benefit the community by hiring local contractors, get

• 2:03:08Jocko Willink?

  water and electricity restored while giving credit to the sheiks, then sit back and watch the area become pacified. That was the goal. Again, that's why it's so important to protect the civilian populace, because you've got these sheiks that are trying to convince their men to join with the coalition. If you accidentally kill a civilian, like they are not going to come on your side. So that's, you know, shows that the insight and the strategic insight that Travis Patrick had. Uh, and, and those efforts to make.

• 2:03:38Jocko Willink?

  Ramadi become pacified and then you say in the book, he just never lived to see it. Patrick Quinn, along with two others died when his vehicles hit with a series of daisy chained IEDs creating catastrophic explosion. When the, when we arrived the following day, the char marks crater and remnants of the vehicle told the story, no survivors. Wagner was the most incensed, driving down a road loaded with IEDs in the middle of the day for a fucking photo op with Ollie North. And that's a little of the backstory. I didn't mention it, but the backstory was it was Ollie North was there, you know, doing a news story and they were driving down to Cop Falcon.

• 2:04:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:04:12Jocko Willink?

  On route Sunset.

• 2:04:16Jocko Willink?

  And then you say, I believe Patrick Quinn's death helped fuel the Anbar awakening and what you, what you believe has been confirmed. Like other, other people have come on the podcast, explained that when that happened, like he was so popular with the Shakes that they were like, oh, we're, we're not putting up with this anymore.

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, we gotta go kill everyone.

• 2:04:36Jocko Willink?

  A huge piece.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  I remember Shake's atar was so pissed.

• 2:04:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, this local shakes became furious about the death that they began vent exacting vengeance against the insurgency. Having these new allies prompted the change we needed, but before things got better, they got far worse. Little did I know, we'd be fighting for our lives in the middle of what history now refers to as the battle of Ramadi. Travis Patrick Quinn, Major Megan, Megan McClung, who's, I think she's the senior Marine Corps officer that was killed in Iraq and then specialist Vincent, Vincent Pomonte, who I think he was one of, uh,

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  He was one of the drivers.

• 2:05:10Jocko Willink?

  He was one of the drivers, one of, he was one of Colonel McFarland's PSD, I'm pretty sure. And he was on loan. So that was December 6th, 2006, freaking outstanding, outstanding people. Um, and of course, the war doesn't stop. Like these things happen and you're going to go back in the field and that's what's going on. Uh, then you just mentioned that we had, uh, Major Scott Houston on the podcast and you got a section in here about, about Marines from Echo Company, second battalion, fourth Marine regiment would assist in the blitz to route the insurgent strongholds and reclaim the city. That's out to me. And you described him as a marine with marine officer with a chiseled jaw.

• 2:05:51Speaker 01

  You can't see it now because he's got that that giant beard and his hair is all long and I'm like, bro, how are you keeping your hair? The rest of us are all losing it.

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's it's awesome. The way you perceived him to I found he was interested in learning from those who'd been in Ramadi and extensively patrolled the areas we'd be clearing. Thus far, any positive interaction with a marine officer at command level had been non-existent. His candor and willingness to learn were the marks of a seasoned officer. He listened intently and asked questions as we briefed him on the area, the locals, choke points, and buildings to target. We wanted to ensure he understood the danger of the mess we've been walking into. And there's a reason I'm calling that out because that doesn't always happen. And sometimes people roll into an area of operations and they think, oh, you don't know anything. Well, I've been here for four months, six months, nine months. I might know a little. Yeah, but I

• 2:06:41Jocko Willink?

  I have experience too, wherever I was. So it's awesome to see that kind of humility that you saw.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  He said, he just stood out to me all those years, even later. And it was funny that we reconnected and have just become even closer, you know, now and work on a business now called Solid Copy Media where we do book writing services and book coaching for, you know, military veterans, government executives, first responders who want to tell their story because it's it's like less than 1% of us and those stories need to be told. And so we we just want to help our fellow veterans, but like having Scott to do all that, I just and like I wrote that before like we ever reconnected because he he stood out so much in my mind.

• 2:07:29Jocko Willink?

  When did you arrive in Ramadi?

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  October 06.

• 2:07:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I I left October 21st, 2006.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  So we were just like.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so we just missed each other.

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  Because Team Five took over and were you guys in Full Metal Jacket at Cregador?

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  I had an element of guys in Full Metal Jacket at Cregador. So, yeah, we had we we. We were the guys that set that up.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:07:51Jocko Willink?

  For the SEALs. The SEALs prior to me, the task unit prior to us didn't have guys permanently over there. And then I put permanent guys permanently over there and then the team five guys just came right into our footprint. So they put guys in Craigador and guys on Camp Ramadi.

• 2:08:05Speaker 01

  So fun story. I have a theory and if you can permit, would you guys listen, you remember how in Warfare it starts out with the Call on Me video?

• 2:08:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  Were you guys listening to that before? Like, cause here's what happened from my perspective. This is crazy. So.

• 2:08:20Jocko Willink?

  I'll ask the guys, cause I know.

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So here's what happened. So prior to us deploying, my brother had showed me the Call on Me video. And I know it was like kind of rampant during the GWOT era, but we would play it to get hyped up for everything. So we, just every day. And so, and I want to tell this story a little bit later. So make sure you ask me about it. It's, it's not in the book, but it's about some of the men that were part of my unit that, and I, their stories deserve to be told because they're, they're heroes.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  But we had this, this private, and I'm sure you know this, there are, there are soldiers and sailors and Marines and airmen that are terrible in garrison stateside, but you get them overseas and they're fantastic.

• 2:09:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. We, we have a thing for that. We call break glass in case of war. You know, like there's a guy, you gotta keep him in a glass like jar. Cause when you're out on, you know, liberty, you take him out drinking, like there's gonna be fights. There's gonna be problem. There's gonna be mayhem. And so you gotta keep him like apart from normal civilians. But then in war, this is the 100% guy you want.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we had a guy like that. His, his name is Dustin Hahn. Um, he was private first class Dustin Hahn. And we nicknamed him the retarded monkey. So like terrible, terrible soldier stateside, phenomenal soldier in war. One of the best. So anyway, you know, we, we had taken him under our wing and our leadership. He was part of Gonzo's teams. Cause Gonzo, you know, goes back to Ramadi. He ends up at Full Metal Jacket and Camp Craigador. But so they would play, so Gonzo and Hahn, Hahn just before every mission would play the Call on Me video. Or they would come back from a really bad one and people got shot. He's playing the Call on Me video. Well, the CA team was in Full Metal Jacket and the SEALs lived right above. The C A team. So Team Five came in and they were blasting that stuff all the time.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  And then those guys would go on the roof with like the snipers from one, two, six and everywhere. And they all smoked cigars. And so part of me is like, did they get that video from us? Like to get hyped up before their mission. So I want to know, I want to know SEAL Team Five.

• 2:10:25Jocko Willink?

  I'll check with those guys.

• 2:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Did you steal it from the C A guys?

• 2:10:29Jocko Willink?

  I'll check with them. I, I actually like kind of recognized the song, but I never, I never like listened to it on deployment.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah, we were always jamming that. So it makes me, I'm just, I'm curious. But yeah, so that the Craigador, the whole, the Malab and everything, that was not my district.

• 2:10:48Jocko Willink?

  Were you spending the whole time, you spent your time in?

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  To me, in the white apartments. Yeah, I was at Cops Steel.

• 2:10:52Jocko Willink?

  Got it. Check. And then, but Gonzo and his crew was over in Craigador?

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you knew how the city was, it was just violent. So you, we had to take over like different cops. So our civil affairs teams, we work in four man teams. We would, we had certain aspects of the city that we had to control. And so be embedded with the infantry line units. So I was with Task Force one, seven, seven. Um, you know, one, two, six was there, Bushmaster, um, one, eighteen. So I worked a lot with First Infantry Division and then SEAL Team Five all obviously had an element at Shark Base that we were working with as well, too. And then I think it was Second Ranger Bat was at Shark Base as well, too, that we worked with.

• 2:11:34Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Um, did you want to tell that story about the guys in your unit? That you were talking about that were heretic dudes? What's that about?

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, uh, that, that's during Operation Murphysboro. There's a, a section in there about Gonzo. Um, when we lose, uh, Private, uh, Luis Kim.

• 2:11:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. I actually do have that thing highlighted, I believe.

• 2:11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we, we can talk about that, but this one's, so this, this is the same night. So Han, the guy that break glass in case of war and another lieutenant, first lieutenant Ashworth, we were so low on civil affairs soldiers that they were just putting, you're not supposed to have lieutenants in commander's positions, but we were so low during the GWAT that they were like, uh, first lieutenant promotable is fine. So we had a bunch of lieutenants that were, you know, the head of our four man team. And then you had a platoon sergeant, I'm a platoon sergeant at this time. And then you have usually like another sergeant and then like a corporal or private. So they, this is during the last engagement during

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  the Battle of Ramadi, which is Operation Murfreesboro. And it's when they're going to clear the Malab district. And I'm sure you remember that area that worked like as a demarcation zone, kind of near Eagles Nest, where like the insurgents just controlled everything and you just didn't go past that point because you'd be shot dead. So it's, it's that point that they're like, it's time to clear out. And so the CA team goes out at night, you know, we've all got it, they've got their NVGs and everything else. And they're with an infantry line unit from second ID and they, they go into this target house and they're like, you know, ask around, get everything. And they're like, no, nobody's here. So they're, they're questioning and finally the guy stops him before they're about to leave and he goes, hey, look, I don't want to get involved in this. He said,

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  but there's IEDs all along these walls. Like if you go out there, you're going to die. So Han and Ashworth, they go tell the company commander of this infantry line unit, he doesn't listen and they continue down and they're also with the Iraqi army at this point. The IEDs, of course, go off in the wall and it's, it's catastrophic casualties. So they, then they start taking fire. So Han starts just picking dudes up and Ashworth, same thing too. Some of the infantry guys freeze up and they, in addition to the company commander. And so Han looks at Ashworth, his first lieutenant, he goes, you gotta take over. He's just like, he's all froze up. And so they start grabbing the injured, they pull him inside this target house, they start patching him up.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  And so, um, and they're, they're patching up all these Iraqi army guys and, um, one of the guys had been left out in the street. So Han runs under fire and this dude's legs have been blown off. And, uh, he grabs it, uh, another explosion goes off and it knocks him forward and he hears just a loud crack in his back as he's carrying this guy. And we think he might've broke his back based on, you know, his chiropractic stuff now. He had to, after this event, he had to sleep, uh, this way, like bent over, um, his bed because his back was so messed up. But he, he gets in, um, he's like having to pinch off femoral arteries with his fingers, throwing tourniquets on. They're just, you know, medevac and every, uh, uh, everyone that they can get, they finally get a Bradley in.

• 2:14:57Speaker 01

  There's three, there's three Bradleys that get blown up trying to get them, uh, trying to get the injured out. They end up, um, getting, um, getting the, the wounded. He thinks this guy with both of his legs blown off is not going to make it. Um, that guy ends up surviving and they, it's an Iraqi guy and they host this, um, like event for Han afterwards for saving his life. Um, but when the Bradleys come, they can't extract them. So they have to do a Mogadishu mile back to Camp Corregidor under fire and they all make it. And I'm like, dude, that is like heroism on a level that you just like, that's a, that's a 19 year old kid right there.

• 2:15:42Speaker 01

  That just break glass in case of war and just takes over, runs out under fire, strapping tourniquets on, doing his combat lifesaver stuff. And when I think about like, you know, we, we make fun a lot of younger generations. I'm like, man, I've served with men who have more courage in their bones at 18. And some guys I know in fifty. And what they can do under that pressure is amazing. And so I love telling those stories because, you know, war isn't about me. It's about the, the people you go to war with and, and what they've done. And so, um, just to get to honor them in that way and have their stories told because, you know, you have to, in the editing process, you have to cut stuff out.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it works.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  And so I was like, man, dude. And so he got a Bronze Star with valor for that. So, yeah.

• 2:16:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's a, a good point of that story that you just told. And you also mentioned the movie Warfare. And one thing that was what they did in Warfare is you have no context of what's happening. This freaking guys go out, total insanity, and then they go back and you get the feeling like that wasn't just another day. And that's the feeling you're supposed to have because your friend Han was in the exact same shit, if not worse, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse, who knows? But that was another day in Ramadi and that's what was happening. Heroic, heroic courage was just shown on a daily basis by so many of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. It was,

• 2:17:15Jocko Willink?

  it was, it was a total war zone.

• 2:17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I think about that often where, you know, I'm just in awe of the fact that what people did during that time period and just the intense bravery that I saw in the men and women that were stationed there. It's, it's, it's phenomenal.

• 2:17:39Jocko Willink?

  Also challenging, I'm going to go to the book here. I peered through the scope. Once my eyes adjusted, my heart sank. Waddling down the alleyway in a yellow dress, holding munitions, was a six-year-old girl who liked to give me flowers. You can shoot her, Batista said technically. I didn't know the little girl's name, nor did anyone on the team, so we just called her the flower girl. She would hang around the cop, she would hang around cop's deal while we conducted civil military operations. Most everyone on the outpost had interacted with her as she was all smiles, laughter and cheer. Between the candy hugs and attention, she was a frequent visitor, often reminding other soldiers of their children back home. In return for gifts we gave her, she'd pick us flowers.

• 2:18:20Jocko Willink?

  I'd kept a yellow daisy in the pouch of my chest rig for weeks because I was so touched by her gesture. Inside me, every emotion roiled and I stood paralyzed crosshairs, hairs hovering over the small child. Batista continued, "They do this, you know, using children to ferry explosives or ammunition." The rules of engagement were clear. She was now considered an enemy combatant. Plus she was moving toward the black smoke plumes where our forces were engaged. Wagner and Starnes might be in a firefight, losing. What would happen if I let her go? My finger hovered over the trigger. Batista continued to watch me with intense curiosity.

• 2:18:59Jocko Willink?

  Inside my skull, angels and demons raged. "Shoot her, you pussy. She's innocent. This will haunt you forever." "What if Wagner and Starnes die? It'll be your fault. Don't do this. She's a child."

• 2:19:13Jocko Willink?

  Slowly, I removed my finger from the trigger, stepped back from the edge and handed Batista the rifle. I couldn't even fumble the words, but he understood.

• 2:19:22Jocko Willink?

  Then he broke into laughter. "Holy shit, Sledge, you're one sick fuck." He slapped me on the back, then grew serious. "I just had to see what type of man you are. We don't shoot kids. We're American soldiers."

• 2:19:42Speaker 01

  Check. Yeah. It's tough though, because I, I knew some snipers that had to shoot some teenagers with AK-47s or chest rigs. So. We do everything in our power not to, and we are willing to let our men die on that behalf. And the situation in that, it turned out to be she was heading towards that area. And Wagner and Starnes were completely under fire and outgunned. It was like roughly fifteen to twenty insurgents. They ended up earning Bronze Stars with valor that day for their actions, taking on an overwhelming force. And, you know, I was on top of cop steel and we're taking fire. And, you know, there's this moss that's like agitating everybody.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  And you know how they would fling out those pizza box IEDs and stuff? So a lot of times they would have kids carry stuff like that. I couldn't really tell because she was far enough away. But I'd been running an Eotech red dot on my setup. And Batista had, you know, like an ACOG. And so I peered through and I was like, oh, my God. So, and he was just, he was just weird that way. He was like kind of one of those funny jokers. He would just like poke poke the bear kind of thing. And I knew kind of to a degree what he was doing because he's like staring at me like, what are you going to do? Kind of thing. And I'll never forget it, you know? He's like, yeah, you made the right choice, man. We just don't do that, even if we have to let our own guys die. Like, she doesn't know any better, so.

• 2:21:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she's probably got someone, she probably got her mom is back in the building with some insurgent with a pistol to the mom's head, saying, carry the stuff over there. And that's the way they get the, that's the way they got a lot of suicide bombers, you know? Suicide bombers aren't, a lot of times they're not, hey, I want, I want to martyr myself. A lot of times like, if you don't do this suicide bombing, we're going to kill your family.

• 2:21:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:21:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were talking about Operation Murphysboro.

• 2:21:38Jocko Willink?

  Private Louis Kimmy Kim killed in action twenty February two thousand and seven.

• 2:21:45Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's.

• 2:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Just constant, constant.

• 2:21:56Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna go to page, uh, go to, advance a little bit. Cause you start to have a little intervention on this deployment. When my eyes adjusted the low lighting in plywood pews, a ramshackle altar with a cross at the front greeted me. The room held a hodgepodge of Catholic and Protestant icono- icono- Iconography. Iconography and literature. Apparently the building couldn't figure out if the Pope or Martin Luther was in charge. I walked a few steps down the aisle, hand brushing over the tops of the pews and paused. I couldn't remember the last time I'd been in a church except for the few times I'd been with April. That was your girlfriend. Can I help you, my child? I wheeled toward the voice, instinctively grabbing my rifle, but stopping moments before the automated response to raise the weapon toward the threat kicked in.

• 2:22:41Jocko Willink?

  The man in front of me wore Marine Corps fatigues with a little black cross over his name taped to identify him as a chaplain. His round face carried no animosity nor sternness, as was the case with, as was the case with our warrior caste, but a quiet and gentle demeanor. Bits of red lines flecked his nose, either due to harsh Iraqi desert or a drinking problem, I wasn't sure. I relaxed and let my rifle slip from my grasp and hang once more from the sling. Sorry, I just wasn't looking around. I went to move past the man, but he held his palms open. What brings you in here today? I laughed. Curiosity? Then I eyed the name tape. Rochford, am I saying that right? Rochford. Rochford. And added, pastor? He smiled. Father, actually. My wife is Catholic, I offered.

• 2:23:26Jocko Willink?

  Forgive me, Father, for I am not. My tone oozed mock piety. Father Rochford. Smile didn't diminish. And so, you end up developing a relationship with this guy, Rochford, am I getting that right? Yeah, Rochford. Father Dennis Rochford was a Vietnam veteran and one of six men in his company to survive the Tet Offensive. Meeting a NOM vet still serving wasn't heard of. So many who approached the priest for counseling did so with respect and reverence. The man was a legend in Marine Corps and Navy. I didn't know that at first. That's freaking crazy. The dude was a Vietnam. In, it's head offensive.

• 2:24:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was wounded in action there.

• 2:24:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:08Speaker 01

  I mean, Scott knew him. And they would do runs together. He would, he would actually run with the troops most of the time. He was like, I mean, that guy was just legend to all of them.

• 2:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:22Jocko Willink?

  Another story you telling here. Saber seven, this is red seven. We're in contact with 75 to 100 insurgents. What the fuck did they just say? Wagner exclaimed, apparently the radio operator needed the clarification as well because the next transmission was frantic. We are in contact with 75 to 100 insurgents and are running black on ammo. Requesting immediate QRF. Starnes whipped the vehicle around and started heading south to provide quick reaction. Requested. Jameson was already on the net asking for details as the attack had come from the remote area where we'd just been. Berserker three, get off the net and return to base. Request to engage denied.

• 2:25:04Jocko Willink?

  This ends up, is that, that ends up being Donkey Island, right? Which was a, a big thing. You can read about it. It's one, one of the things that's interesting about the Donkey Island episode where all these insurgents were killed. Was when you, and again, I left in, in October and this was.

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  This is July of seven?

• 2:25:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so this is pretty late. But when you read like the American reports, it's all these insurgents killed. And the like Al Jazeera reports, our civilians are killed.

• 2:25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:35Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 2:25:36Speaker 01

  No, they were all suicide vests.

• 2:25:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:38Speaker 01

  In white garb, the white cad shoes, like the all nine yards.

• 2:25:42Jocko Willink?

  Just full on suicide bombers. Yeah, so that's, but it's one of those ones where you guys are trying to get down there to help and you get told no.

• 2:25:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:25:51Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever figure out why you got told no?

• 2:25:53Speaker 01

  They already had a QRF on the way and, and I mean, I, we were the closest element. We were out past like the glass factory and a little bit south. Um, and we, we were pushing hard for it, uh, but they, they would not let us, uh, cause we were already RTB.

• 2:26:11Jocko Willink?

  We're like. And how many vehicles did you have with you?

• 2:26:13Speaker 01

  Just three.

• 2:26:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you got three vehicles and they got a proper QRF heading down there, probably some Brad's, maybe even some, uh, some Abrams. So.

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  Oh, they had to send in, uh,

• 2:26:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was a big one.

• 2:26:23Speaker 01

  Aircraft too, like the helicopter. They had to, those guys got like distinguished flying crosses. Cause one of them strapped, one of the pilots strapped himself to the bottom of the, the helicopter so that they could put wounded in.

• 2:26:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:37Speaker 01

  That was nuts.

• 2:26:37Jocko Willink?

  We've had those, we've had some Apache pilots on here. They got a name for, oh, they, uh, what do they call it? Like a stirrup ride or something like that? They got some horse name for doing that. That's like a protocol. They have like a little thing to clip into if they have to. Or they can either clip wounded guys into it, or they can clip themselves into it and put the wounded guys in the backseat of the helicopter.

• 2:26:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what they did. It was so wild. And like, I mean, the tough part too, just that was a fluke. They just had a, a presence patrol that was out there that got hit and got hit bad. And like one of the guys, cause there was all these reeds in that area. And so when they got out, they were like hiding in the reeds and stuff too. Uh, one of the guys, uh, got a confirmed kill with a pistol because they were black on ammo. That's all he had. So, I mean, it was, it was pretty wild.

• 2:27:24Jocko Willink?

  Chuck. Uh,

• 2:27:28Jocko Willink?

  you end up, you got, you got some stories in here about some of the, like, some of the other things that are going on over there, like, making friends with the base dentist and getting, uh, Novocaine shots and whatnot. So that's, that's always interesting.

• 2:27:41Speaker 01

  My fratty behavior had not left me. Yeah. I, it was trying to take care of Starnes because he was starting to fray and I could tell like just the way that Gonzo had when I was in Afghanistan. Starnes is 19, you know, and I know his family and I promise him, you know, hey, I'm going to get, I'm going to get your son home. And like he's, he's been through the wringer at this point, you know, I'm like a 19 year old kid dealing with like what we saw in Ramadi is pretty nuts. And, um, You know, we had, we'd made friends with the base Dennis and I was like, hey, do you guys have laughing? And we were, we were like drinking in there, you know, cause everybody gets their, their booze and their care packages and you're not supposed to. But I was like, you guys have laughing gas? And he's like, no, it's under like kind of lock and key.

• 2:28:22Speaker 01

  I was like, do you have Novocain? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, shoot me up in the face and then we're gonna, I want you guys to punch me as hard as you can. Like it's like Fight Club, basically. Just, I'm just being a dumb idiot. Like there's, there's things that I'm proud of that I've, I did as far as like leadership. And then there was other stuff where I just reverted back to my stupidity.

• 2:28:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, if you gave Starnes a fun night and got his mind off the freaking killing and death, the good on you, man.

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He laughed about it. I mean, Wagner rebuked me in the morning. He was like, hey, man. Like,

• 2:28:57Speaker 01

  can't be driving a Humvee on base drunk, dude. You know, I was like, ah, that's true.

• 2:29:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's not gonna work out well. Uh, speaking of, uh, facing tough times when you're on deployment, you get the phone call. You know what? In the Navy, we call it the, uh, the Dear John phone call.

• 2:29:13Speaker 01

  Same thing.

• 2:29:15Jocko Willink?

  I, I, so April was your wife at this point?

• 2:29:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:29:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So I kind of messed up the chronology.

• 2:29:20Speaker 01

  She'd been my girlfriend while I was in Afghanistan and then, uh, became my wife after.

• 2:29:24Jocko Willink?

  And she says, I'm filing for divorce. My counselor think it's the right thing to do. I exploded. Who the fuck is your counselor? What type of ass advice are they giving you?

• 2:29:34Jocko Willink?

  But it is what it is.

• 2:29:38Jocko Willink?

  And you get, you know, like one of your, one of your guys, Wagner, Sledge, you know how sorry we are about your wife leaving you, right? But you're slipping on missions. And that's like, he had, it's like one of those things. It doesn't really matter what's going on at home.

• 2:29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:53Jocko Willink?

  Like, we're sorry your wife is like leaving you, which is awful, but.

• 2:30:00Speaker 01

  You're gonna get us killed.

• 2:30:00Jocko Willink?

  You gotta keep your shit together.

• 2:30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and you know, we were in that last 90 day window. So it was like, he knew what was up. He was like, if you get complacent, you're gonna, it's not just your life that's on the line. It's the rest of us too.

• 2:30:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, fast forward a little bit. Welcome home, which is the Sanitarium song. Metallica.

• 2:30:22Jocko Willink?

  Come home.

• 2:30:26Jocko Willink?

  April refused to pick me up from the airport. The night I arrived home, standing in my faded uniform, bleached white by desert sun, I felt like a failure as I waited, as I waited to rent a car. Elsewhere, other members of my unit would have spouses and family members to scoop them up, all smiles and relief, and said I had to figure out how to get home.

• 2:30:44Jocko Willink?

  And she had got a house while you were, while you were deployed. You had given her the

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  Power of Attorney. From the Jags at Camp Ramadi.

• 2:30:52Jocko Willink?

  This is just a freaking nightmare. Again, so much more to get the book. There's so much more information in here.

• 2:31:01Jocko Willink?

  Things don't work in, in Houston, which is where the house was, which we were going to live. And so fast forward a little bit. So into the night I drove away from Houston, away from April, away from the problems. But as the 12 step saying goes, everywhere you go, there you are. So you can't really run away from these problems as hard as you're trying. You end up in Austin, lonely, no friends. Contemplated suicide.

• 2:31:27Jocko Willink?

  And you say the reason people choose suicidism because they want to die, but because they don't understand how to alleviate their suffering. I didn't know how to end the internal torment I felt, but I also didn't want to die per se. When I was in a suit, when in a suicidal state, many people's thoughts turn to how others might respond in the event of their demise. So what's, what's this black freaking hole like for you?

• 2:31:51Speaker 01

  So I am, uh, at the time I'm, I'm doing in between Austin and Houston at that point. I'm living on, I've like hit basically every veteran trope. Like I don't have a job, you know, I've just gotten out of active duty. I'm home from Iraq. I'm like, I'm almost 30 at this point. And all I've known for like my twenties is like, I've gone to war or I'm training to go to war or I'm in war. And I'm like.

• 2:32:18Jocko Willink?

  Or you're throwing up Lunchables and beer in college.

• 2:32:22Speaker 01

  That too. And so I, you know, it it just seemed like every day was like some new battle. It was just another new war. And I'm just, you know, I'm divorced now. Uh, my wife has left. She's already found somebody new. She seems happy. I'm miserable. Um, I'm like, what am I doing with my life? This is the worst. Like even the person that loves me the most or supposed to love me the most doesn't love me. And I'm like, maybe I should just off myself and then then she'll know how bad I so I'm I'm like sitting like it it literally looks like a veteran stereotype. I'm sitting on the edge of this bed with this bottle and I'm just drinking, you know? And I'm like, I should do it. I'm not gonna be a pussy about it. I'm gonna do it.

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Freaking awful.

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  And what I had this like lightning bolt epiphany where I'm like, if I take myself out tonight, then I just gave the insurgency and Al Qaeda and the Taliban the win that they've always wanted.

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  They they took me out from home when things are comfortable. And and I realized like, I'm not gonna let those guys win. I'm not gonna let them win. Um, and like, you know, when I I dove into my coursework in mental health, like you you really realize like suicide is a state of ambivalence. Part of you wants to live and part of you wants to die. And usually when people tell you they're suicidal, that's the stronger part of them. It's telling you that because they actually want to live. And I I make it a point to point that out to other vets. Like if you told somebody, you actually do want to live because otherwise you would have just done it. And so, you know, like I said, going back to human nature, uh, flee or fight. And that's what your body is wrestling between. Do I flee or do I fight? Do I exit this world or do I keep going?

• 2:34:05Speaker 01

  And the reason people choose actual suicide, and I learned this under Dr. Kent Corso, who is one of the leading suicidologists in the United States, he's an Air Force veteran, is they choose it because they don't know how to end the internal torment and suffering that they feel. If they did, they wouldn't choose that. And so part of that is recognizing like, how do I take proactive steps forward to alleviate the suffering that I'm feeling? And how do I I do that? And so that's when I had that like kind of epiphany, I'm like, I'm not gonna let these cocksuckers win.

• 2:34:38Speaker 01

  I I chose to live, but at the same time, like, I was still, I still had to deal with the after effects of that because otherwise I was gonna still feel that internal torment.

• 2:34:50Jocko Willink?

  How'd you know Bill?

• 2:34:52Speaker 01

  Uh, Bill was my friend from college.

• 2:34:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Cause that's who you link up with in Austin, just to add some context here. That's who you're kind of hanging out with. He's kind of recognizing your downward spiral.

• 2:35:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Big time.

• 2:35:03Jocko Willink?

  And um, finally, he says, uh, maybe we should go to church or something.

• 2:35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's funny, cause he's an atheist and I was like, that's really weird, man. You know, like my upbringing and I'm like, you know, what's that gonna do for either one of us? And he's like, I don't know, maybe you can meet some nice Christian girl with like morals and values. I was like, that's what I need after a divorce, buddy, you know? Uh, but he, he just didn't know how to help. And like, at first, he was like,

• 2:35:28Jocko Willink?

  So that was like him throwing darts at like blind at a dartboard. Like, hey, maybe we go to church.

• 2:35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And he had, he had just gone through a rough breakup with his fiancee and uh, it was like, I don't know. Maybe I need some type of different spiritual direction or whatever. And I was kind of like, you know, cause of my upbringing, I was antagonistic to it. But you know, I told my parents, I was like, hey, I'm thinking about, and they encouraged me. And uh, and so we ended up going to a couple of churches that really sucked. And I was like, this is, this is dumb. And then he was like, I, I heard about this church, like for people like us that don't like church. And I was like, all right, we can give it a whirl, like whatever. Um, and that's, that's when I started meeting some people who like changed my life.

• 2:36:11Jocko Willink?

  That's when they played Foo Fighters there.

• 2:36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:36:13Jocko Willink?

  The band, the freaking whatever, what do you call a gospel band or a church band or whatever it is?

• 2:36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the worship team played a Foo Fighters song and then they connected it.

• 2:36:22Jocko Willink?

  And they connected it, yeah.

• 2:36:23Speaker 01

  To the message that day. And I thought that that was really cool and an inventive way to like get people who were not certain about spirituality to kind of go and check something out to where it reduced like the barriers.

• 2:36:38Jocko Willink?

  The barrier to entry.

• 2:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:40Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you end up going to an outreach at a bar, which is interesting to have a church outreach at a bar.

• 2:36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's church at a bar.

• 2:36:47Jocko Willink?

  What's that thing?

• 2:36:48Speaker 01

  Uh, it's kind of like a new thing, I guess, but I mean, they weren't serving alcohol, but there's stuff now called like beer and hymns that a lot of places in local communities will do now where they'll have somebody, they'll sing hymns and they'll drink beer.

• 2:37:00Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  If you, if you look at the history of like alcohol in the church, it's really actually fascinating. Um, because the church had initially, like the Trappist monks started it as like a ministry to feed and clothe the poor. And that's where Saint Arnold got big because he was the patron saint of brewing because people back then didn't know, like, uh, let me get into a weird history lesson. They, so a lot of the cauldron maids would, uh, cook dinner and then brew beer in the same vats. And what would happen is, is like they would get bacteria in the beer, people would get sick. That's where you get the term witches brew. They call them witches, they're like, oh, you got us sick. Well, the monks came in and they believed that they had to purify everything for God. And so they sterilized everything and so nobody ever got sick drinking the beer. And so that's where Saint Arnold came up with the whole thing.

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  It was actually safer back then to drink beer than it was water because of the contamination. And so Saint Arnold's catchphrase, the patron saint of brewers is don't drink the water, drink the beer. So, so yeah, it's, it's kind of a, I mean, it's coming back. Prohibition did a weird thing to like the Christian church, um, to where they were like equated it with like debauchery and craziness, even if you were practicing moderation and temperance. But, uh, but yeah, so I, I end up going to this event, um, that they do, they wanted to reach people like me. It was on Sixth Street. Um, uh, you know, it's just famous in Austin and it was like this church at a bar thing where it was like for 20 and 30 somethings. And, uh, yeah, and that's where I met a buddy of mine who, who changed my life.

• 2:38:29Jocko Willink?

  And that's Ryan?

• 2:38:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:38:31Jocko Willink?

  Ryan Jordan?

• 2:38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not his real name.

• 2:38:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:38:34Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 2:38:35Jocko Willink?

  But, and he just like was able to communicate to you in a way that you really hadn't experienced before?

• 2:38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he had, one of the things that I've discovered between, you know, I, I meet a lot of vets who say like, I don't feel comfortable, you know, telling my story to non vets. And I think most of us do want to tell our, our stories, but we, what happens is, is like, when you're dealing with that, like life and death stuff, like, and you start to use the gallows humor and you're laughing about an insurgent's head exploding or you're running over this feral dog that's like trying to attack you or whatever.

• 2:39:10Speaker 01

  You start to, sometimes you'll smile and you'll laugh about that stuff because that's that's your mind protecting you. And what you can see in the body language of civilians a lot of times is they get uncomfortable. And we're really good at picking up on body language, like military veterans, especially combat veterans. And so it communicates, I am a monster to you, so therefore I'm gonna shut up. And what they really need is a, is somebody who cares. And the thing that I remind them of is, is suffering is a universal language. We all go through it. Like, you're, you're just gonna suffer in life. You're not immune to, like, what happens in this world, sorry. And, you know, for my, my buddy,

• 2:39:51Speaker 01

  his parents were hoarders growing up, like, so bad that, like, the TV show tried to do a thing. Like, they had all these cats, and like, his dad was an alcoholic, and his dad would just throw, like, when a cat would die, he would just throw newspaper over it, and just like, let the cat rot, and anything. So the house constantly smelled like cat piss, he would never have his friends over. So he had this really complicated relationship with his, his dad, who was an alcoholic, who was driving him around, he was drunk and stuff, and crashing into fields, and, and then his mom was like codependent, and then they just, and right as he was like, kinda working stuff out with him, both of them died within three months of each other. And so he's left as, like, kind of, you know, this twenty something year old orphan now, and he doesn't know how to deal with any

• 2:40:34Speaker 01

  of that, and it's affecting his marriage, and he's, he's, you know, he's like, I have all this trauma from my upbringing, how do I deal with it? And he gets into counseling. And, so he's telling me, like, all these stories, and I'm, I'm realizing, like, this is a guy who's brave and strong, and is okay to own his past, maybe it's okay for me to own mine. And like, I started, like, testing the waters with him a little bit. And he didn't act repulsed, or, and he just, I remember, I told him a story about these Iraqi police, like, interrogating this guy with, like, wires, that they pulled from a lamp. And he didn't act repulsed, or, he just said, it sounds like you've had a rough

• 2:41:14Speaker 01

  go, man. He said, but, I wanna let you know I'm here for you. So, and I was like, alright, maybe, maybe I can be a little bit more honest with this guy. And it just kinda started out in that direction, and he introduced me to some other people. Yeah.

• 2:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Through that, you start reading, you start researching, you start gravitating towards, you know, the Christian message. And eventually that's where you end up. And just to find, and a great, you know, you do a great job in the book, get the book. So you can kind of follow that, that story. But, you know, one thing that you say in the book is most people wrongly believe that when you become a Christian, you never struggle or become super judgmental. Neither were true in my experience. Instead, struggles remained, but a deep well of growth, humility, and grace started soaking into the crevices of my life. This process, however, was slow and painful. So I think it's, those are really good, you know, points I think that you make, you know,

• 2:42:14Jocko Willink?

  where, oh, you, you become a Christian, now everything is going to be hunky dory.

• 2:42:19Speaker 01

  Sunshine and rainbows, yeah.

• 2:42:21Jocko Willink?

  Or, you know, people go, oh, Christians are super judgmental and they're pointing their fingers at everyone else, telling them how they're messed up and they're better. So that is not the case.

• 2:42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's tough. I mean, I, I think you see it a lot in society. Like, I don't even like to tell people that I'm a, I just, I'm like, let my words and actions and deeds, you know, act non-verbal. I, I want that to align with like the way, one, that I treat people, the way that I care for people. And like, I don't want to be one of those guys that's just, you know, the worst thing you can do, I think, is like, let me, let me preface it this way. Have you ever heard like those Star Wars nerds that won't shut up about Star Wars? And you're like, just please shut up.

• 2:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I do, I know some of them.

• 2:43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:05Jocko Willink?

  One of them's named Jason Gardner.

• 2:43:08Speaker 01

  And you're like, I don't.

• 2:43:10Jocko Willink?

  He's not that bad.

• 2:43:11Speaker 01

  You're like, I don't want to hear about this. And like, yet, you have like, kind of the same thing happen, like, within the Christian communities and elsewhere.

• 2:43:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, the Jiu Jitsu communities, the CrossFit community, like, you name a community and it's like, people get, get wild with their freaking infection to the brain and that's all they want to talk about, which is cool, they're passionate about it.

• 2:43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:31Jocko Willink?

  But if you're trying to influence someone and you bombard them, it's not going to be very, the chances are, it might not be very effective.

• 2:43:38Speaker 01

  Right. And, and so for me, it was a, it was just very counter-cultural to what I had experienced. And sadly, I think, like, you know, given recent events and everything else, like, a lot of people are like, man, Christians do not line up with like their, their words or their values or anything. And I think it's because a lot of them are just kind of these nominal Christians at best to where they're like, oh, I kind of know a little bit about my faith, but like they they really don't. Like, one of the funniest things, I think, for me, was I I went, uh, so I was on Van's Warped Tour for six years, like, um, working, um, in a mental health nonprofit that was started by Jake Lurz. He's the lead singer of August Burns Red, and

• 2:44:20Speaker 01

  he was, he was my boss and and everything. And I would, I would meet these people, and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a Christian. I was like, I was like, cool. Like, when did you become a Christian? They're like, oh, well, I grew up in Texas. And I'm like, what does that mean? Like, the hell does that mean? Like, that has nothing to do with, like, what you believe. And so I started asking questions, like, there's this basic tenet of the Christian faith, and it's called the gospel. And they couldn't explain that. And I'm like, if you can't explain the core tenet of, like, what you're supposed to believe, like, with accurate precision, you're probably not really that person. It would be like me being like, oh, yeah, I'm a, I'm a jujitsu practitioner, but I don't know what the hell an omoplate is, or, you know, um, and and stuff like that, or a triangle. And and

• 2:45:03Speaker 01

  and you're just like, yeah, they do all this stuff, but I don't know any of, and they're doing the same things. And so it's, it's very difficult. And I think a large problem is, is, I love what David Foster Wallace says, he's a, he's an author, um, and he said, everybody worships something. It just depends on what you worship. Like, that can be your ego, or your beauty, or whatever it is. But everybody does something. And I think in our day and age, a lot of the issues come down to, people are just worshiping things that are not bringing about value, or compassion, or generosity, or, or anything, or helping their fellow man. Instead, it's creating us versus them mentalities. And they're using that under the guise of faith. And it it just, instead of creating people

• 2:45:47Speaker 01

  that, that, uh, that really actively live their faith, it creates people that are very repulsed by it, you know? So, that's, that's just me spitting just my own random crap, as far as what I think.

• 2:46:01Jocko Willink?

  That's good, good to hear that perspective. Um, you end up getting married to Emily?

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  Yep. Married fourteen years now.

• 2:46:09Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Uh, this was really, well, I'm just gonna read it. You had an old trunk that you had, with a bunch of, you know, war memorabilia and stuff that you had in it.

• 2:46:22Jocko Willink?

  And Father Rochford had given you like a Bible and, you know, a little card. And so the handwritten card, there's a phone number on it. So you, you know, you give a call and someone answers the other end. "Hi, I'm trying to reach Father Dennis Rochford," I said. "We served in Iraq together. He's instrumental in my faith journey. He asked me to contact him several years ago and I dropped the ball." The silence on the other end of the phone made me think the call had disconnected. "Hello?" "Sir," the voice was solemn, "I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but Father Rochford passed away some time ago." My heart sank. "How?" I asked.

• 2:47:01Jocko Willink?

  She replied, "It's best if we just remember the departed as they were." "How?" I pressed again, this time through gritted teeth.

• 2:47:09Jocko Willink?

  "Suicide."

• 2:47:11Jocko Willink?

  I would discover that on the morning of September 10th, 2009, Dennis Rochford had donned a bright yellow US Navy t-shirt, combat boots and jeans. He drove from his home in near Gansett, Rhode Island, to the Newport Bridge where he parked his car in the center lane. Then he walked to the rail, stood for a moment and jumped over the side. He is pronounced dead at the scene, joining the other 22 veterans who kill themselves daily. Emily would find me in my office crying when she got home.

• 2:47:46Jocko Willink?

  That was not the, uh, that was not the thing I expected, you know, when I, when I was reading that section at all. You know, I, I thought we were heading for a nice reunion. Um, did you ever get any, any other amplifying information on that situation?

• 2:48:04Speaker 01

  No, you know, and I wanted to be respectful to his family as well, too. I just, I put in there directly like what came from news sources. But, you know, General McFarlane and I have talked about this because he's Catholic, you know? And, um, he, he had brought in, uh, Dennis Rochford. And, um,

• 2:48:28Speaker 01

  You know, we were on the phone not too long ago, the general and I, and just talking about him. And I said, you know, here's a guy who lived through Vietnam. He's one of six out of 150 to live. And he tells me he becomes a priest because, you know, he promised God that like, you know, if I make it out of this alive, I'll give my life in service to you, and he survives. And, you know, it was interesting. He told me, he's like, I almost picked a girl, though. And so he like, he was wrestling through that before he became a priest. And then he goes back to war, you know? And he's doing Afghanistan and Iraq, and he is handling all the deaths for Al Anbar province. So we're talking TQ, we're talking HIT, you know, all the areas for Anbar.

• 2:49:12Speaker 01

  So he's constantly doing last rites for Catholic soldiers. And he's constantly checking in on everybody else, me, you know? Making sure that my spiritual health is good and that I'm doing okay. And with everything that I'm dealing with overseas, and nobody checks in on him. And he was, he was a lifelong alcoholic. That's why he had the, he was on and off the wagon. And just, it eventually got to him. He was so busy caring for everybody else, nobody took the time to care for him. And that's the danger of our healers. They got it, you got to have somebody that you're checking in with, somebody that's checking in on your soul, making sure that you're okay.

• 2:49:53Speaker 01

  And, you know, I bring that up in the book, like, one of the things that I had to realize for me is, war is a spiritual experience. I love what Carl Marlantis talks about and what it's like to go to war. And, you know, we like to think that it's not, but it's like playing God, you know? And I think Dennis really kind of realized that. You have the power to protect life, or you have the power to take it away. And he had done both, you know? In Vietnam, taking life away, and now as a chaplain, protecting it. And then, you know, most of us think we know what happens when we die, like myself included.

• 2:50:34Speaker 01

  But there's no like, formative consensus. That's why we call it the great unknown. And so when you point an M4 carbine rifle at a man and you pull the trigger, you're gonna send him to the great unknown. There's something spiritual about that. And so Dennis and, and like, I had to reconcile all of that with, with everything. And I think for, for Dennis Rochford, like, he had seen the best and the worst and just didn't have anybody to help him on his spiritual journey too. And it eventually led to a suicide.

• 2:51:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you got the, the following chapters, "When Everything Means Nothing", is the name of the, which I guess is a song by Fit for King.

• 2:51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:16Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:51:18Speaker 01

  Old Ryan Kirby, buddy of mine.

• 2:51:21Jocko Willink?

  You know, it, and, and you tie that into, you know, again,

• 2:51:27Jocko Willink?

  going on the same threads, the same line of thought, you know, when everything means nothing, you, you start talking about, uh, you know, the, the movie Rambo. And that, that soliloquy that Rambo, that John J. Rambo goes on to the end, talking about how he could fly gunships and drive tanks and operate million dollars of equipment.

• 2:51:47Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, here I got nothing. You know, we all, we all know that line very well, 'cause he can't hold a job anymore. And, you know, that's, that's the thing that people have to watch out for. I know I always tell people, like, you gotta find a new mission. You have to find a new mission. You can't go from having the, like, the most honorable job and a very focused mission to nothing. It doesn't work.

• 2:52:17Speaker 01

  Science will back you up on that one, too. There's a 2012 study by Gibbons and colleagues, and they studied military veterans. And regardless of whether you are a combat veteran or you are a non-combat veteran, they found that if you don't find a new unit, a new tribe, a new mission, or a faith affiliation, you will struggle the rest of your life.

• 2:52:41Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna close out the book and again, you know, I've read probably 4% of the, 3% of the book. The book is just awesome. I've skipped over all kinds of details. Get the book. Um, there's an audio book too, right?

• 2:52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there's a Bradford Hastings does it. He's an award-winning voice actor who's done like Marvel and Star Wars and stuff, so.

• 2:52:59Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. If you don't have the time to read the book, uh, get the audio book, but get it. It's, it's just, it is, you can see, you can see from the stuff that I've read today, there's so much more depth to it. But I'm gonna close out with this. While in Afghanistan, I wasn't afraid to die, but I was afraid of dying like a coward. As strange as this may sound, Afghanistan and Iraq and readjusting to civilian life is where my cowardice had to go to die. That's the battle I fought in writing this book. Do I succumb to cowardice and make the story pretty where I'm some war hero? Or do I tell the truth? Will my faith community accept me having told war stories true to form?

• 2:53:40Jocko Willink?

  Or will the language and violence be a bridge too far? What will my friends and family think after having asked for years, what was it like to go to war? The coward in me wants to stay safe. But as with anything that brings about purpose and meaning, a coward has to die.

• 2:54:07Jocko Willink?

  So there you go, man. Um, thank you for writing the book. Uh, book came out in 2022.

• 2:54:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, are you, are you still writing? I know you guys have, you and Scott have the, uh, the, uh, media company, the book company. What's it called again?

• 2:54:26Speaker 01

  Solid Copy Media.

• 2:54:26Jocko Willink?

  Solid Copy Media. So you have that. Are you, are you still writing? Yeah, I know you, so you write for Medium, right?

• 2:54:32Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:54:33Jocko Willink?

  Or that's a website type thing?

• 2:54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they, they pay me there. So it's, it's kinda nice. Um, but yeah, I, uh, after I wrote this, um, my publisher came to me and they said, hey, we're not actually used to having people that know how to write. Um, you should actually consider getting into fiction. And, uh, and, and so I have always wanted, like, when I got my agent and the publishing deal and everything, I wanted to originally write, like, science fiction and fantasy. Like, I love science fiction and fantasy. One of my favorite book series is Red Rising by Pierce Brown. He does a really great job of talking about the dilemmas that soldiers go through because he's interviewed a bunch of them. Um, you know, Lord of the Rings, stuff like that. I've always wanted to write epic fantasy and epic sci-fi, so that's, that's what I'm working on now.

• 2:55:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, check. Do you find it therapeutic?

• 2:55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:55:22Jocko Willink?

  Was writing this book therapeutic? Did it feel like it got some stuff off your chest, like going to confession of some kind?

• 2:55:29Speaker 01

  Uh, and like, it was wild. Like, I would write part of it at this veteran-owned brewery in Colorado Springs called Brass Brewing, and they've since sold the company, but, uh, the owner, uh, Woody, is a, is a buddy of mine, and he was a Ramadi vet. And so I was like, I'm gonna write, I'm gonna write here.

• 2:55:46Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:55:46Speaker 01

  In this, in this brewery. And, and so he would see me sometimes, like, crying in there, because I'm, like, trying to write, uh, on my keyboard, and I'm just like, this is messing me up, man. Like, you know, when people are dying and stuff like that. It's just, it's tough. It was tough to write, but it was, it was extremely therapeutic in, in so many ways. And I think that's why it's beneficial for a lot of these veterans. Like, they may not be able to talk about it, but they might be able to put it down on paper and have somebody else, uh, hear that story. And I, I didn't talk about war at all until 2016, and I happened to write this, this viral article. Um, and my editor at Medium came to me, uh, and I was having a little bit of writer's block, and I was like, hey, what do you, what do you guys want me to write on next? And they go, oh, man, we love

• 2:56:28Speaker 01

  your war stuff. And like, this is a pretty, kind of, left-leaning publication. And I was like, you guys like my war stuff? That's weird. I was like, that was a one-off. I don't, I don't write or I don't talk about that stuff. And, and she said, well, that's a travesty. And I said, well, why is that? And she said, um, less than 1% of you have served in the longest-running wars in U.S. history. She goes, you, you're a small microcosm. And she said, we are losing all the stories that we need to hear from veterans and how to avoid, you know, war just in general, because I'm sure you want peace. And I was like, yeah, of course. She said, we're losing all the important lessons that we could learn from veterans to the annals of history. And it's a travesty that you guys won't even talk

• 2:57:08Speaker 01

  about it. And so it really changed my perspective. And so I started writing and I got better and honing my craft and and then that eventually led to the book. And then I just, I enjoy writing, you know?

• 2:57:20Jocko Willink?

  Sure. So you're still writing. You've got the graphic design.

• 2:57:24Speaker 01

  I do graphic design and web development. I'm designing a ton of websites right now for people. Doing keynote speaking. I was in Kansas last week at a gala fundraiser as their keynote. I'm going back out to Kansas, a couple other places. So I do speaking engagements.

• 2:57:40Jocko Willink?

  What are you speaking about?

• 2:57:41Speaker 01

  I do business, just like you, like extreme ownership kind of stuff. So I'm doing like a major firefighters conference here pretty soon, talking about leadership, like under fire and stuff. I do, I talk about, you know, business and leading in business. I taught, mental health is a big one. And then, and then veterans too. Like, what do you need to know about the veterans that you hire? And like, what are the best practices? How can you empower them in your businesses and communities? And then, and then spiritual things as well, too, for the people that are interested?

• 2:58:12Jocko Willink?

  So you got that going on. On a day to day basis, I know you got like a variety of mental health certifications. What's your involvement in that on like a day to day scenario?

• 2:58:23Speaker 01

  So I've, I've taken kind of a step back. It's more like speaking and using my expertise now for like keynotes. But in my local area, I meet with veterans that are struggling. Because I want, you know, my friends go, okay, I know a guy who can probably help you. And then I just begin a mentorship relationship with them. Because I think that's really important. I had that mentorship relationship from Gonzo and other men in my life who empowered me to become who I was supposed to be. I could have stayed stuck and, you know, been another veteran number or trope or suicide or whatever. But I had people step into the fray when I needed it most. And I want to do the same for them.

• 2:59:01Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 2:59:04Jocko Willink?

  We got sidetracked because we were talking about karate and then we went down the path of metal and freaking, you know, wearing baggy jeans in the 90s. But you trained, so you did Christian karate. That's where we got sidetracked.

• 2:59:20Speaker 01

  I moved over to, yeah, it was just the, the instructors were Christian. So my parents were cool with it.

• 2:59:26Jocko Willink?

  My point in saying that was you were into martial arts. You were into Karate Kid 2. And now thankfully you are training jujitsu too.

• 2:59:35Speaker 01

  I am indeed. I am a spazzy white belt. I've got about a year and a couple of months under my belt right now.

• 2:59:40Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 2:59:41Speaker 01

  I train at Warrior MMA. My, my jujitsu coach right now is a woman named Natalie. And I'm going to butcher her last name. It's like Saldeo. And she, she was just on Amazon for a fight, for an MMA fight where she won. And she won by arm bar. So.

• 3:00:01Jocko Willink?

  We like that.

• 3:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I, I have my black belt in Kyokushin. That's a, a style that, you know, George St. Pierre.

• 3:00:10Jocko Willink?

  GSP.

• 3:00:10Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah. So I.

• 3:00:11Jocko Willink?

  Kicking each other in the freaking legs.

• 3:00:13Speaker 01

  That's what we do. Like, and we punch to the body a lot. So we were, we're big on pain. Um, so it was a lot of barefisted full contact, but we would always spar with pads and whatnot. But once you're brown belt and above and competing, it sucks.

• 3:00:25Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 3:00:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00:27Jocko Willink?

  And then you, and then of course.

• 3:00:28Speaker 01

  Muay Thai now too.

• 3:00:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And then of course, like I said, you have, when you mentioned earlier, you got this solid copy media thing with Scott Husing. And you're helping authors, teaching them how to write, teaching them about the publishing thing, representing them as agents as they take their books out to the publishing world. So that's awesome too. And, uh, I guess, is that, is that where we're at right now? Does that get us up to speed?

• 3:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm still involved in like the church world and stuff like that. And, and I, I speak there. Um, I've got a great community of friends. Um, you know, I got two kids now. Uh, they're both jujitsu practitioners.

• 3:01:04Jocko Willink?

  Warrior kids. We like to call them.

• 3:01:06Speaker 01

  They are warrior kids. And then, um, you know, I moved to the mountains because, um, you know, that's what my grandfather did after World War II. And I find a lot of peace and solace in like the trees and the mountains. And then I just love skiing too. So.

• 3:01:20Jocko Willink?

  Where do you ski at?

• 3:01:21Speaker 01

  Uh, usually Breckenridge because it's two hours from my house. So it's, it's just a quick, you know, if I get up at like 5:30 and then first chair.

• 3:01:30Jocko Willink?

  First trucks, let's go.

• 3:01:31Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 3:01:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Where'd you, where'd you learn how to ski?

• 3:01:34Speaker 01

  So my grandfather, okay. So this, this is the fun part. Do you remember like how in World War II, like the, all the officers had like, like white glove servers and everything? It was kind of more of an aristocratic thing. So because my, my grandfather was an officer, we grew up, uh, like, yeah, I mean, he was great. We couldn't put our elbows on the table. Otherwise he would pick them up and slam them down. And he'd be like, hey, we don't act uncouth here. Like, so we were.

• 3:01:59Jocko Willink?

  He was an officer and a gentleman.

• 3:02:00Speaker 01

  Officer and a gentleman. So growing up, I spent all my summers in Greeley, Colorado. He was in the cattle industry. That's why Greeley smells like cow manure. So we would spend our summers there and we were required, and then in the springtime, we'd go skiing, but we were required, uh, growing up to know how to golf and play tennis. Cause that's, that's what gentlemen did.

• 3:02:21Speaker 01

  We skied, golfed and tennis.

• 3:02:23Jocko Willink?

  That's where skiing came in. So it was skiing, golf.

• 3:02:25Speaker 01

  So yeah, so he, he required that we all learned how to ski too. Me and my brother.

• 3:02:29Jocko Willink?

  Check. Right on. Well, awesome. Um, anything else?

• 3:02:33Speaker 01

  Anything else?

• 3:02:37Speaker 01

  Not that I can think of off the top of my head. I'd.

• 3:02:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So, so if people are looking for you, you are solidcopymedia.com. Then you have benjaminsledge.com.

• 3:02:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. They can literally, you can Google my name, just like you can Google yours and everything that pops up is me.

• 3:02:53Jocko Willink?

  The medium thing? How often do you write for mediums? It's Benjamin sledge dot medium.com.

• 3:02:59Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. I think it's medium.com backslash at Benjamin sledge, something like that. But anyways, if you just Google my name, like the medium profile. Yeah. Uh, it depends. Like, um, you know, uh, sometimes I'll get on a writing spree. I've just been so busy recently that I haven't had a chance. The last one, I wrote about was, um, I, I read this article about how like these billionaires were building bunkers. And they were wondering how that they could keep control over their security teams, like these tier one guys. And I was like, yeah, that'll never happen. I was like, i- if you're insulating for the rest of the world in the apocalypse, those guys are going to kill you immediately.

• 3:03:40Speaker 01

  So yeah, I was like, I was like, the ultra rich are not going to survive the apocalypse. Good luck, you know, so it's just, I take hot topics of the time and people like my stuff on geopolitics. They like my stuff on, uh, you know, religion, uh, and just trying to be a very nuanced writer. I feel that so many people have gotten into political tribalism that I want to take a very nuanced view to where people go, can go, that was good and I appreciated that take as opposed to inflaming culture wars and things like that.

• 3:04:09Jocko Willink?

  Like someone can listen and go, that makes sense to me as a human being.

• 3:04:12Speaker 01

  Right. Which like same thing for you. And I listened to the, uh, declared hostile thing. I was like, I can listen to that as a human being and relate to that. And like so many people are just trained by algorithms and stuff now that if, and bots like China, it people, China and Russia are running information campaigns on you. Most of the people you think you're arguing with in the comments are just bots.

• 3:04:36Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is.

• 3:04:37Speaker 01

  You think you are, but it's just trolls. And so I, I think that that like, the more that we have people kind of step into those spaces and, and you know, kind of be a salve as opposed to like instigating. Um, that's really what I want to do as far as like any of my hot takes and writing. I, I want people to go whether, what's whatever side of the aisle they land on go, that was good and I can appreciate that.

• 3:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Right on. And then you're on Instagram and Twitter X.

• 3:05:04Speaker 01

  Sort of.

• 3:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Benjamin C. Sledge.

• 3:05:06Speaker 01

  Sort of.

• 3:05:07Jocko Willink?

  Kind of.

• 3:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like sometimes I get on there and I'll post some stuff.

• 3:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, one thing that you will be at is the January 16th and 17th, 2026 Ramadi reunion 20.com.

• 3:05:19Speaker 01

  I absolutely will.

• 3:05:21Jocko Willink?

  And if you were listening and you were in Ramadi, then please show up. And if you knew someone that was in Ramadi with the ready first, please let them know. Cause we want to see you all there.

• 3:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. The other thing too, that I'll tell you, if you sign up, um, like i- i- if you can't make it because of the funds, please let us know, like contact us on the website. Number one. Um, we're happy to cover your registrations, things, things like that. Um, but also. Like if you sign up, part of what you're paying for is you're gonna get your very own challenge coin, which we already have developed in their imprint right now. They look awesome. You're gonna get your own hat and you're gonna get a T-shirt too. So it helps cover the cost of like all the swag that you're gonna get there as well.

• 3:06:00Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Sign up. Awesome. Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 3:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, rewind real quick. Remember when you said your friend kinda was the one that suggested kinda randomly to go to church? Go to this church. What was his name again?

• 3:06:13Speaker 01

  Bill.

• 3:06:14Speaker 02

  Okay, whatever happened to him? I mean, because you kinda said he was kinda more of an atheistic dude, so it was kinda random coming from him.

• 3:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:06:21Speaker 02

  Well, did he embrace the faith like, you know?

• 3:06:23Speaker 01

  Not necessarily. He kinda came more into like, he believes now that like, there's a higher power in the universe and kinda stuff like that. We're still close. Like, he ended up having to move to Tampa, Florida for work, and then I moved to Colorado. So we'll chat here and there. We just saw each other recently, sadly for a friend of ours funeral. So when I got back from Iraq, one of the other guys that helped me heal was this, this old Vietnam fighter pilot. He's a Warthog pilot. And prior to the Warthog, I can't remember what they were flying, like A37, something like that in Vietnam. And he was kinda one of the first to welcome me home. And we ended up, me and Bill and

• 3:07:04Speaker 01

  him, his name was LA, we ended up having dinner every Sunday for 10 years. And so he just recently passed. He was in his 80s. And so we got to see each other again at the funeral.

• 3:07:15Speaker 02

  So that original dude, he, he was kinda like this messenger at the right place, right time, just for that moment, kind of a thing. Boom, then you're on your way. You think Karate Kid 2 is better than Karate Kid 3?

• 3:07:31Speaker 01

  Alright, so Karate Kid 2, did you guys watch Cobra Kai? Tell me you watched Cobra Kai.

• 3:07:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, until Terry Silver went to jail, then I stopped.

• 3:07:38Speaker 01

  Dude, it ends well.

• 3:07:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I heard. Yeah, yeah. Just phased out, though.

• 3:07:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I think Karate Kid 1 will forever be my favorite, just because it's iconic. And you had that bullying aspect, and that was why I got into karate. I loved part 2. Part 3 is weird because, yeah, you have Terry Silver and the whole Cobra Kai, I don't know, it's kinda goofy sometimes in that one, but.

• 3:08:04Speaker 02

  In my opinion, Karate Kid 3 was way better than 1 and 2 put together.

• 3:08:08Speaker 01

  You're wrong.

• 3:08:08Speaker 02

  Sorry. I know you'd think I'd be wrong, but you'd be wrong about that.

• 3:08:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, wait till you see the Warrior Kid movie.

• 3:08:15Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right. You're coming out with that. That's gonna be incredible. Chris Pratt, right?

• 3:08:19Jocko Willink?

  Chris Pratt. Chris Pratt plays Uncle Jake. Yeah.

• 3:08:22Speaker 01

  No way.

• 3:08:23Jocko Willink?

  It's just, it's just, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna help out a lot of kids.

• 3:08:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, my brother gave me your book initially, because my brother's like a huge fan of your stuff. So when he found out I was going on Jocko, he was like, no way. So he thought it was, he was like, have you read his book? And I was like, no, I'll read, I'll read the Warrior Kid one. I was like, read Extreme Ownership, you know, but.

• 3:08:41Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man. Right on, right on. Anything else, Echo Charles, any other movie, TV show debates you want to have?

• 3:08:47Speaker 02

  I, I will say this in, in closing. Terry Silver is the bad guy in Cry the Kid 3. It's the best bad guy ever created in cinema history.

• 3:08:57Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 3:08:58Speaker 01

  Really?

• 3:08:58Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, he is.

• 3:09:01Speaker 01

  For the eighties, maybe for some fun.

• 3:09:03Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I'm gonna leave it at that. Other than that, really good to meet you, sir.

• 3:09:09Speaker 01

  It just rains on my parade and he's like, bye.

• 3:09:12Jocko Willink?

  He's not gonna say much, but he's gonna drop a bomb when he does it. That's Echo Charles for you. Awesome. Ben, any final thoughts?

• 3:09:20Speaker 01

  You know, if, if you're in the veteran space, like, I, I would like to remind you, one, and I know we talked about some hard things today, that you are never alone. And you have a community of brothers, and, and if any of this resonates with you, reach out to your, your brothers and your sisters in the armed forces. Check in on each other. I do that. I, I'm checking in on all my guys. I make sure that they are like, I, I've, I've even met people. You don't know how much of a community you have, especially when you begin to talk about your time in service. I've met people, I met a distant cousin of mine named Duskin, who oddly, his name's Duskin Sledge, and he was like, yo, we have like the same story.

• 3:10:05Speaker 01

  And we really do. And it's, it's just weird. And we have helped each other over, because he was really struggling too, when he first got home. And then over the years, he's just gotten better and better. He quit drinking. You know, he's, he's just, when you, when you help other people, when you help him take those proactive steps, especially if you're a other vet, like. Remember your warrior ethos. That's, that's what I want to close with. Remember that, you know, I'll never accept defeat and I'm never going to leave a fallen comrade behind. So let's, let's remember that, that we do not leave our own behind. So remember your brothers and sisters, um, take care of each other and, uh, you know, if you're going to the Ramadi reunion, I'd love to see you there.

• 3:10:46Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome, man. Great words, great words to close with. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for your service in Afghanistan and Iraq. Thanks for everything you did for the country and thanks for what you're doing now to help out veterans and what a great way to close, man. Thanks for coming out. Appreciate it.

• 3:11:00Speaker 01

  Thank you. Honored to be here.

• 3:11:03Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Ben Sledge has left the building. Pretty, pretty crazy journey. Ben Sledge has been on, definitely spent some time in a dark place, but he made it out and he's in a good spot now. It's a good lesson for everybody. Um, take care of your mind. Take care of your spirit. Take care of your body. And I'll tell you that those three things are very, you know, kind of connected.

• 3:11:35Jocko Willink?

  And it's important, mm-hmm, that we, one thing that we can kind of factually do on a daily basis, pretty easily, not pretty easily, simple, not easy.

• 3:11:44Speaker 02

  Simple, not easy.

• 3:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Is the body part, working out, running, training, getting after it in all manners, which means you're going to need some fuel. Check out jockofuel.com and get what you need, including creatine. You know what I learned from you?

• 3:12:00Speaker 02

  Yes, what?

• 3:12:02Jocko Willink?

  Creatine plus hydrate.

• 3:12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Little morning rehydration scenario.

• 3:12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:12:09Jocko Willink?

  I'm seriously considering going upping the creatine dosage even more. I'm at 10 a day, 10 grams a day. Will you support me or no?

• 3:12:17Speaker 02

  I support. Yeah. So there's a lot of, I was thinking the exact same thing. There's a lot of hotness over the, the, the, the increasing dose of creatine for cognitive scenarios. So, hey, I'm in agreement with it. Um, you know, like how by now we all know that creatine is one of the most studied supplements of all of them. See what I'm saying? So I don't know. Feels reliable. At the very least feels worth a try.

• 3:12:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, let's try it. I'm in. Check out jockofield.com. Get, go. I'm two goes deep right now. I just had a milk during our little break, which was tasty, by the way. Thirty grams of protein, like in fifteen seconds, eighteen seconds, or something like that. Or you can sip it and enjoy it. You know, and you see like a person skip sipping on scotch.

• 3:13:04Speaker 02

  Sir.

• 3:13:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, seeing how it tastes, tastes good. They they relish that taste. I don't relish that taste. I think it tastes terrible. Alcohol to me tastes terrible.

• 3:13:12Speaker 02

  Oh, the scotch. Yeah.

• 3:13:13Jocko Willink?

  The scotch. You ever seen someone sipping tequila?

• 3:13:17Speaker 02

  Yes, I have.

• 3:13:18Jocko Willink?

  Even like when I smell a margarita.

• 3:13:20Speaker 02

  For real?

• 3:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's just freaking nasty.

• 3:13:22Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 3:13:23Jocko Willink?

  Do you love the taste of a margarita?

• 3:13:25Speaker 02

  Well, it depends on the margarita, but the answer is yes. On on a good. Yeah, yeah. Yes, sir.

• 3:13:31Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 3:13:32Speaker 02

  I will admit that. Yeah.

• 3:13:33Jocko Willink?

  I think, like in my mind, it's hard for me to comprehend that you would like that that taste.

• 3:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Which is, you know, just the reality of the situation from my perspective.

• 3:13:43Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, look, I don't want to go into a big thing.

• 3:13:47Speaker 02

  But, you know. Let's face it, what is taste?

• 3:13:52Jocko Willink?

  I ain't going off script.

• 3:13:53Speaker 02

  At the end of the day, what is taste? It's gonna be the whole experience. See what I'm saying? And but and I understand like a big part of the experience is the association, but in my opinion, the margarita is way less of the quote unquote association and more about like what ingredients and all this other stuff. But hey, your point, I I agree with your point.

• 3:14:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, I recommend you don't mix up a margarita. I recommend you mix up a milk. I recommend you mix up some greens, some Jocko greens, some Jocko hydrate. That's what I recommend. I don't recommend you mix up tequila and whatever sugars in a margarita. Like just bad across the board. Jockofield.com. Check it out. Also, check it out in any of the number of places you can get Walmart, Hy-Vee, Wawa, Meyer.

• 3:14:39Jocko Willink?

  HEB down in Taos. You guys know where you can get it. So check it out. Also, originusa.com. We just released some jeans, 100% cotton jeans, 88 bucks, made in America, 100%, 100% cotton, 100% made in America cotton, 88 bucks for these jeans. So, look, what's been up?

• 3:15:04Jocko Willink?

  A goal to get a pair of American, 100% American-made jeans, under 100 bucks. Cause you know how much they charge? You know how much one of these like other brands will charge for American-made jeans? $400, $300. Yeah, crazy.

• 3:15:18Speaker 02

  Wait, so the 88, that's not just a promotion then?

• 3:15:21Jocko Willink?

  No, that's the cost.

• 3:15:22Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought it was a promotion.

• 3:15:23Jocko Willink?

  That's how much they're, they, that's how much we are selling them.

• 3:15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's the new.

• 3:15:27Jocko Willink?

  88 bucks. So, and you know what's kind of cool is, you know, this is like the old, this is like the old school pair of jeans you had when you were a kid, because they're just cotton. There's no stretch to them. They're just comfortable, old school, freaking cotton jeans, 88 bucks. And we got everything else that you need at Origin USA. If you need some stretchy jeans, slightly, sure, they're not crazy.

• 3:15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:48Jocko Willink?

  There's not like a pair of, what are the, what's my wife for leggings?

• 3:15:51Speaker 02

  I know what leggings are.

• 3:15:53Jocko Willink?

  They're like stretchy things. They're not those, but if you need those, get some Delta, get some Delta jeans. So, that's what we got for you. Origin USA, 100% made in America, boots, hoodies, whatever you need, you can get it. Go to originusa.com and support America and fight communism. Fight slavery. Support this great country. OriginUSA.com, check it out.

• 3:16:18Speaker 02

  Yep, it's true. Also, jocko store.com. It's where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies, other stuff as well. Representing on the path is what I call it. Discipline equals freedom. Good. Stand by to get some.

• 3:16:32Jocko Willink?

  I kind of like not using the full script because it's getting a little old, but you're just referring back to it.

• 3:16:37Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, just in case people don't know.

• 3:16:39Jocko Willink?

  They know.

• 3:16:40Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. Sometimes they don't know.

• 3:16:41Jocko Willink?

  I'll be quiet over here. You can go read your script.

• 3:16:44Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, some things are not self-evident. See what I'm saying?

• 3:16:48Jocko Willink?

  Proceed.

• 3:16:48Speaker 02

  Get after it. Anyway, we're representing while we're on this path. Oh, rewind actually a little bit back to

• 3:16:53Jocko Willink?

  Wait, are we representing while we're on the path?

• 3:16:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes, we are. So anyway, speaking of being on and off the path, if you're trying to lose body fat, do not drink margaritas. Margaritas, pina coladas, lava flows, these types of things, they have the most calories and it's a lot too. A small one's like fourteen hundred calories.

• 3:17:10Jocko Willink?

  What?

• 3:17:10Speaker 02

  Small one.

• 3:17:11Jocko Willink?

  What? What's so many, what's so many, is it sugar?

• 3:17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, sugar, the mix, yeah, all that stuff.

• 3:17:16Jocko Willink?

  Fourteen hundred calories? That's a damn meal.

• 3:17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, it's more than a meal. Yeah.

• 3:17:21Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 3:17:21Speaker 02

  So don't drink more, certain, you know how you, you ever heard of a Cadillac?

• 3:17:24Jocko Willink?

  PSA.

• 3:17:25Speaker 02

  Cadillac margarita? Yeah, you heard of a Cadillac?

• 3:17:27Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 3:17:28Speaker 02

  Okay, it's like, it's a deluxe margarita, see what I'm saying?

• 3:17:31Jocko Willink?

  With more sugar?

• 3:17:32Speaker 02

  More stuff, more sugar.

• 3:17:33Jocko Willink?

  Cream? Do they put whipped cream in a margarita or no?

• 3:17:35Speaker 02

  No, pina colada.

• 3:17:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:17:38Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah, you gotta get the deluxe one if you're trying to go for that fourteen hundred calories. But like I said, if you're trying to trim down, lose some body fat, you know, get into the healthy.

• 3:17:45Jocko Willink?

  Productive and have a good life, don't order a margarita.

• 3:17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably not. That's not, that's not the direction. Anyway, back to Jocko's store. You want to represent on the path, some good stuff on there, quality stuff. It's, we go for the fit, which is a big deal. A lot of people told me this is my favorite shirt because it looks the best on me. It's a good fit. Anyway, side note. Also the shirt locker, new design every month. People seem to like that one. Check that one out. So yes, go to Jocko's store. If you want to see what's in the shirt locker, past designs, just click on the shirt locker. You see, see, see the past designs. It's good. People seem to like it. Subscription scenario, new design every month.

• 3:18:16Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 3:18:17Speaker 02

  It's all in Jocko's store.

• 3:18:18Jocko Willink?

  Also books, obviously get the book Where Cowards Go to Die by Benjamin Sledge. And then on top of that, you got Dave Burke's book, Need to Lead. Order that stat. Ashlandfront.com. We have a leadership consultancy. We've been around for almost a decade and a half. And we help companies, organizations and teams get aligned with their leadership. And when they do that, all problems get solved. Go to Ashlandfront.com if you would like us to help us, like us to help you with your company. And then of course, Extreme Ownership, if we can help you online, we will. And that is through extremeownership.com. It is a skill acquisition course, series of courses where you can learn the skill.

• 3:19:06Jocko Willink?

  Of chess? No. Of guitar playing? No. Of basketball? No. We will teach you none of those skills, but we will teach you the most important skill in life, and that is the skill of leadership. Go to extremeownership.com if you want to learn that skill. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mom Lee's got an amazing charity organization. Go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. Also, check out Heroes and Horses.org and Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. Also, if you want to connect with us, you can check out Ben Sledge. He's on the interweb, interwebs, benjaminsledge.com. He's also on Instagram

• 3:19:46Jocko Willink?

  and Twitter X, sometimes at Benjamin C. Sledge. And also, you can see both of us. If you were with the 11 AD in Ramadi, go to RamadiReunion20.com, January 16th and 17th, 2026. We will see you there. And if you want to check out Echo and I, we're on social media, Echo's at Echo Charles, I'm at Jocko Willink. You can also check out Jaco.com. Just be careful because that place is mind rot, and it'll kill you. So don't spend too much time there. Once again, thanks to Ben Sledge for joining us tonight. Thanks for what you did in Afghanistan. Thanks for what you did in Ramadi, Iraq. And thanks for what you continue to do today. Also, thanks to our uniformed service

• 3:20:29Jocko Willink?

  members around the world with a specific salute to our Reserve and National Guard units who step into harm's way when the call comes, men like Ben and his brothers. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for stepping into harm's way here at home to protect us. And everyone else out there, take that lesson from Benjamin Sledge. It's tempting to take the easy route. It's tempting to run from the things you fear. The coward in us wants to stay safe. But as Ben points

• 3:21:10Jocko Willink?

  out in his book, with anything that brings about purpose and meaning, a coward has to die.

• 3:21:21Jocko Willink?

  So go kill that coward, everyone. That's all I've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.