Ep. 884: The Invention of Archery, Patagonia Sues a Drag Queen, and Will Oregon Ban Hunting?

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en and the MeatEater crew discuss: How a gang of rogue turkeys beat up a nice old lady; the invention of archery; Oregon voters will get to consider a bill to ban all hunting, fishing, ranching and rodeo-ing; fishing records; possible lead-shot wild game meat donations in New York; fish full of PFAS chemicals; Patagonia sues a drag queen; and more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 0:34Steven Rinella?

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• 1:18Steven Rinella?

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• 2:02Steven Rinella?

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• 2:10Steven Rinella?

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• 2:53Steven Rinella?

  Oregon voters will get to consider a bill to ban all hunting, fishing, ranching and rodeoing. Pushed by a dude who looks like Moby on a diet. We got an interview about archaeological findings around who invented the bow and arrow and when Spencer Newhart shatters a number of fishing records. Seth is slowly killing himself eating fish full of PFAS chemicals. And Patagonia sues, of all things, a drag queen. But first, I'm up. The mouse is gone. Hmm.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Oh, what happened?

• 3:33Steven Rinella?

  Got away. But it's like a complicated story because first the mouse. My boy comes in the room. I don't know when that kid goes to bed, the high school kid comes to our room, wakes me and my wife up at two in the morning to say the mouse got away, but I found it. And I said, did you put a lid on it so it doesn't get out again? He says, yes. The next day I wake up and there's no lid on it. And I said, why'd you say that you put a lid on it? He said, because what I meant was it doesn't need a lid. Oh, sure. What he meant was it doesn't need a lid.

• 4:08Steven Rinella?

  You know, and I'm like, Katie, do you remember him saying like in the middle of the night that he put a lid on it? She says he absolutely said he put a lid on it. He says it doesn't need a lid is why he said that. He says it crawled out on a stick, but he found it.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  So wait, he woke you up in the middle of the night to tell you that it got away?

• 4:27Steven Rinella?

  That's what was so fishy about it. But it was true because in the morning he goes back. Like, I don't get why. I don't know why he woke us up to tell us that. He woke us up to tell us the non-news item.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Sounds suspicious there.

• 4:40Steven Rinella?

  Very.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  But still, it made its way to the news show.

• 4:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, very fishy. So he says there was a stick in there. Someone put a stick in there that so it mimicked its real environment, like your real life environs. You know? And he said, well, I took the stick out. Then my wife goes and gets a basket full of laundry in the laundry room, screams bloody murder because the mouse has got out and found its way and is living in the laundry basket.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 5:10Steven Rinella?

  We find it again and catch it.

• 5:13Steven Rinella?

  This little boy, who was his mom, a neighbor boy, his mom was with my wife when they found the mouse.

• 5:23Steven Rinella?

  He made a hardware cloth box with a lid for the mouse.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  Nice.

• 5:29Steven Rinella?

  Since there's no aquarium lid.

• 5:32Steven Rinella?

  We put it in the hardware cloth. Like made out of like, you know, wire mesh. To store it in there. But my wife at this point is done with this mouse getting away. So she's like, store the mouse outside in the box with the lid. I had originally nixed this box because I said that mouse will fit through the hardware cloth.

• 5:54Steven Rinella?

  But when I said, put it in there because it's got a lid and put it outside. And they're like, well, I thought you said it'd crawl through the hardware cloth.

• 6:01Steven Rinella?

  I'm like, well, I think it's big enough now where it won't. But, but it did. But where it gets complicated is my wife was mad that I brought that thing down here. Because she's like, it's illegal to have wildlife. So you're going to get in trouble for talking about that stupid thing on the podcast. And I said, you're going to get in trouble because you brought it home.

• 6:26Steven Rinella?

  But now it's gone anyway, and now it looks like I let it go to avoid the law. Cause if they raid the house.

• 6:35Steven Rinella?

  Like I, I listen to blood trails. If there's no body, it's very hard to prosecute.

• 6:41Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 6:41Steven Rinella?

  So now there's no mouse anyways. So like when they raid the house, I'm like, dude, there's no mouse here. Look all you want. Well, it's here somewhere.

• 6:49Speaker 05

  You had to have been secretly happy that that thing got.

• 6:52Steven Rinella?

  Oh yeah, we were both happy it got away, but I legit didn't let it go.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  So was it in the house somewhere?

• 6:58Steven Rinella?

  No, it's outside the house.

• 6:59Speaker 05

  I wonder if he'll come back to visit you guys now and then, like that pigeon did.

• 7:02Speaker 06

  Do you think he's like grown enough or she's grown enough to make it?

• 7:06Steven Rinella?

  I've told my kids, I think it's fine. Cause it's the right time of year.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  And if it could escape on its own, like two or three times?

• 7:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's got a bad desire.

• 7:14Speaker 05

  You got any, uh, bad neighbors that let their house cats roam around?

• 7:17Steven Rinella?

  There's one, there's one cat.

• 7:21Steven Rinella?

  I think his name's Mitzi or something like that. Killing a machine dude. No bell on that thing.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Mitzi and Mebel.

• 7:32Steven Rinella?

  Mebel's gone. So if the cops are coming, don't even waste your time. I can't find the mouse if I wanted to.

• 7:37Speaker 04

  Habius corpus.

• 7:39Steven Rinella?

  There's no body. Listen to blood trails. If there's no bodies, there's no, you can't do nothing about it.

• 7:46Steven Rinella?

  We got our, oh, oh yeah. Our annual turkey hunt giveaway sweepstakes. Just we're, I like it cause when this sweepstakes goes live every year, it's just about the time of year. We just did it. Last year's turkey hunt sweepstakes giveaway winners. We just hunted with them. Both of them got their birds. They both got their birds on day one. Every year. Yanis and I team up with TRCP and we do our turkey hunt giveaway, all expense paid. Three night, two day turkey hunt. The, the webpage says Colorado, but we bounce around. We don't like to lock ourselves in on where we hunt. This last year we hunted in, in Northern Illinois, phenomenal hunt. So ignore that, that'll change.

• 8:28Steven Rinella?

  They have to put a value on it and they say it's worth 9,000 bucks. I think it's worth a hundred thousand dollars.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 8:34Steven Rinella?

  All your expense paid. We pay your travel. We pay your food. We had my buddy, Chef Andy, came and cooked this year. He's cooked in the past. So we bring in the chef. We take care of your lodging, your airfare, your turkey tags. You hunt with me and Yanni, three nights, two days. All the money. We cover, personally, we cover all the expenses. So the full raffle sweepstakes money goes straight to TRCP. We don't pull expenses out. That goes to TRCP. Okay?

• 9:07Steven Rinella?

  It's live now to go win. We've been doing this for years. We've got a stack of, we've got a stack of happy customers.

• 9:15Speaker 05

  Didn't it start out as an elk hunt and changed to a turkey hunt?

• 9:19Steven Rinella?

  Funny you bring that up. It started out as an elk hunt that was an auction. So that meant that every year it'd be like an orthodontist.

• 9:29Steven Rinella?

  Or some such. Then we're like, let's switch it so that any kind of guy can win.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  Right.

• 9:35Steven Rinella?

  Just so hillbillies and rednecks can come.

• 9:37Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 9:37Steven Rinella?

  So that's what we did. And it raised more money. We, we like tripled the amount of money we raised by going raffle.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 9:48Steven Rinella?

  So he'll, if you're sitting there and you're thinking, man, I'm too much of a hillbilly to ever win something like that, think again.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  And if you got a baby due in the spring and you consider the like, well, maybe the timing doesn't work. You can still do it anyway. And then Steve will have a make good for you.

• 10:05Steven Rinella?

  Spencer speaking from experience. We, last year's winner didn't hunt. Last year's winner wins and then gets his wife pregnant. Like three months later.

• 10:14Speaker 04

  Tale as old as time.

• 10:16Steven Rinella?

  Yep. So all of a sudden, his wife's due date is like turkey season. So he sends his brother in laws who tag out.

• 10:28Steven Rinella?

  Then I felt bad for him. So then I had him and his dad come for dinner and Spencer came over to help entertain. So we flew them into town. This is, we're not gonna make a habit out of that.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  Don't go getting pregnant.

• 10:40Steven Rinella?

  If you win, get a box of prophylactics.

• 10:44Speaker 04

  Family plan accordingly.

• 10:45Steven Rinella?

  Yep. If you get a family, if you win, get a family planning plan together.

• 10:51Steven Rinella?

  I don't care how you do it.

• 10:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:54Steven Rinella?

  That's for another show.

• 10:57Steven Rinella?

  That's for calling mommy. Um. So.

• 11:02Speaker 05

  How did Spencer entertain them like song?

• 11:05Speaker 07

  I was doing car wheels.

• 11:06Steven Rinella?

  Oh, he's a great entertainer.

• 11:07Speaker 07

  Magic turkey.

• 11:09Steven Rinella?

  Spencer's my kinda Spencer's my kinda guy for stuff like that because what Spencer does.

• 11:13Speaker 07

  Oh, wow.

• 11:14Steven Rinella?

  Do you want to know what what you know what Spencer does?

• 11:16Speaker 07

  He asks a lot of questions.

• 11:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, very thoughtful questions. He's not there to talk about himself.

• 11:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, he's.

• 11:21Steven Rinella?

  Very, he'd ask questions on the fly. Like if you thought for a week about what you might ask.

• 11:26Speaker 07

  Well, maybe I thought for a week about what I might ask.

• 11:29Speaker 04

  Did you notice how I noticed that about you?

• 11:31Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:31Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he asked great questions.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  He's a natural host.

• 11:34Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 11:35Steven Rinella?

  It's just me. Yeah, I can just like, I could sit there and when he has a question, I'm like, that's such a good question. I'm looking forward to the answer.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  And if you only listen to the podcast, you might think that he just asks trivia questions. But in fact, he's very personable.

• 11:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, ask people about themselves. It's a great characteristic. TRCP.org. Summer meat eater summer sweepstakes. Again, all expense, three night, two day hunt with me and Yanni. We have made some exceptions when we've had a hunter not get his bird. We've done a little, I don't want to make a habit of that.

• 12:08Steven Rinella?

  We already got next year's spot lined up. It's the same spot from this year in the places sweet.

• 12:13Steven Rinella?

  It's a good turkey hunt.

• 12:15Speaker 05

  That's where they strut on the railroad tracks.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  If you need some extra entertainers. He can ask questions.

• 12:22Steven Rinella?

  So it goes like you get like 10 entries for $25. What?

• 12:28Steven Rinella?

  Just do it. Yeah, get in there, win this son of a bitch. We'll show you turkey hunt. And some good food.

• 12:37Steven Rinella?

  What else we got? Is that it?

• 12:39Speaker 05

  No, you got your shirt.

• 12:40Steven Rinella?

  T-shirt. Oh, we got a, you know, all this, all this hoopla, all America's 250th anniversary. I get it. I'm more of a 100, 200, 300 guy.

• 12:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, here, here.

• 12:52Steven Rinella?

  Like I was around, I was three, two, something like that, two. At the bicentennial. But the problem with only doing centennial celebrations is you're gonna have people just flat out miss out.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  Including our current president.

• 13:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Well, no. Well, I'm saying like. He hit the bicentennial.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  I know, but he's like, the 250 is closely linked to his.

• 13:17Steven Rinella?

  I don't want a dog on it. I get it, but I just like, I would never, if I was left to myself.

• 13:25Steven Rinella?

  I would never think to, if I saw that the 300 was coming, I would plan huge stuff.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 05

  Big part.

• 13:32Steven Rinella?

  I would never have thought to myself, 250 is, you know, but the, the nice thing about splitting the 50s is most people that live a normal life expectancy will hit a celebration. You could, like, I hit one at two, I won't hit the next one.

• 13:52Speaker 04

  Hmm. Nope. I mean, we, we.

• 13:55Steven Rinella?

  Right? So.

• 13:56Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Maybe.

• 13:58Steven Rinella?

  How, like, you might not ever hit one.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  No, probably not.

• 14:03Steven Rinella?

  If they didn't do the 50.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  Right. Right, I was born in 86.

• 14:07Steven Rinella?

  So, like, you could live a fairly okay life.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's not gonna be great.

• 14:13Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it'd be a little bit disappointing. You're, you're, yeah, Sydney would get remarried.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  I was looking forward to that day.

• 14:21Steven Rinella?

  Um, she'd get a second chance.

• 14:23Speaker 04

  Now.

• 14:24Steven Rinella?

  But you could feasibly, without it being a tragedy.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 14:28Steven Rinella?

  Never get.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:29Steven Rinella?

  A celebration.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  Perfectly, how, everybody say, he lived till 89.

• 14:34Steven Rinella?

  Oh, is that how you'd be?

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Well, 90, I, I, I could live till 89 and miss it, right?

• 14:41Steven Rinella?

  Okay, so you're not gonna see one?

• 14:42Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:43Steven Rinella?

  That's why you gotta do the 50s.

• 14:46Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm.

• 14:47Steven Rinella?

  Cause of Randall.

• 14:48Speaker 05

  They don't have, like, the cool centennial name, though.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  They do.

• 14:52Speaker 05

  They do?

• 14:52Speaker 04

  If I may.

• 14:53Steven Rinella?

  What is it called?

• 14:53Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, everybody knows that 150 is a sesquicentennial.

• 14:57Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's what that means?

• 14:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. The term for a 250th anniversary is a semi-quinsentennial.

• 15:05Speaker 05

  Nice.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  That sucks.

• 15:06Speaker 06

  Everyone gets your semi-quinsentennial.

• 15:08Steven Rinella?

  Kinseniero. That's why. I believe that's why they're going with the 250.

• 15:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 05

  That should've gone on the t-shirt, man.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  Semi-quinsentennial.

• 15:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, why is that?

• 15:20Speaker 04

  That's a great, that's a great trivia.

• 15:21Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, we launched a shirt and Randall's on it, cause this is his best chance to see a centennial. This is the only chance to have a good celebration. It says, "America." It's got a buffalo on, it says, "Land of the Free, 1776."

• 15:35Steven Rinella?

  Get your own. What's it say about Free? Free jerky there?

• 15:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  I think you might get free jerky with the T-shirt or if you spend over a certain amount or something.

• 15:44Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 15:45Speaker 05

  Some 250 year old jerky.

• 15:48Steven Rinella?

  I don't see nothing about jerky.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  It says it up there.

• 15:51Steven Rinella?

  The top left.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  This is just a screenshot from the website.

• 15:53Steven Rinella?

  Oh, huh. There could be something to do with free jerky.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:58Steven Rinella?

  I don't want, that's enticing.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  Don't say anything official.

• 16:02Steven Rinella?

  Um, guy has the etiquette question.

• 16:05Speaker 07

  Hold on, hold on.

• 16:06Steven Rinella?

  Oh, sorry.

• 16:06Speaker 07

  Punt gun.

• 16:07Steven Rinella?

  Good job.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Was that deliberate?

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Now you gotta explain. This is Spencer not missing the exit.

• 16:16Speaker 07

  Steve scolded me for not speaking up last week to talk about the punt gun and then he blew past the punt gun exit again on this episode. We bought a punt gun in 2022. We've been messing around with it for a while. We shot it earlier this year. Now there's some important news to share around that. In late June here, we're going to have the video that comes out on our YouTube channel of me and Steve shooting the punt gun. And then in early or mid-July, the Meat Eater Auction House of Oddities is going to go live and we are going to be selling some hats that were shot by the punt gun at the auction house. And then in late August.

• 16:50Steven Rinella?

  Those hats say this hat was shot by a punt gun.

• 16:53Speaker 07

  And it was actually shot by a punt gun.

• 16:55Steven Rinella?

  And there's gonna be three categories.

• 16:59Speaker 07

  There's one.

• 16:59Steven Rinella?

  Barely shot, pretty shot, and really shot.

• 17:03Speaker 07

  Yes, so a barely shot.

• 17:05Steven Rinella?

  Higher, the more holes, this is the weird part. You pay more for the more holes.

• 17:12Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 17:12Steven Rinella?

  But it all goes to, it all goes to conservation.

• 17:15Speaker 03

  It's like jeans these days.

• 17:16Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:17Speaker 07

  There you go.

• 17:17Speaker 05

  What'd you guys do with the shell casings?

• 17:20Speaker 07

  We, we have some.

• 17:21Steven Rinella?

  Spencer stole one for his own collection.

• 17:22Speaker 07

  They may go in the auction house. We sent one of them to, I'll explain this now. In late August, we are selling the punt gun again. It will be August 21, 22, or 23. We don't know the exact date yet. This will be done through Rock Island Auction at their summer premiere auction. Rock Island Auction, they're like the world's leading auction house for antique, collectible, historic firearms. That's where we bought the punt gun.

• 17:48Steven Rinella?

  And remember we had Will Primos on about selling that collection, that collection series of shotguns he has, that was Rock Island.

• 17:54Speaker 07

  If a really valuable gun comes up for sale, say it's like worth north of, you know, $20,000, there's a good chance it's going through Rock Island. That's where our punt gun came from. That's who it's now going to be sold through. We paid $20,000 for it. Uh, the folks at the auction house hope that it goes for more than that this time around. Um, their estimate is, is 20 to 30,000. Um, punt guns don't come up for sale real often. We bought ours in 2022, that same auction, there was one other punt gun. Prior to that, they had sold one in 2021 and then 2016. So less than one a year, uh, for punt guns coming up for sale.

• 18:30Steven Rinella?

  Ours is a Holland and Holland punt gun manufactured in London.

• 18:34Speaker 07

  And it's, uh, from the late 1800s. It's four years older than the very state we're sitting in right now. That's how old that damn punt gun is.

• 18:41Steven Rinella?

  And the nice thing about this, when we got it, if someone said, does it work? We would have had to say, I don't know.

• 18:47Speaker 07

  In fact, we asked that question and they said, we don't know.

• 18:50Steven Rinella?

  Now, when you buy it and someone says, does it work? You'd be like, does it work?

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Check out this hat.

• 18:55Speaker 07

  It worked six times. Uh, so we're going to sell that through Rock Island Auction, August 21 to 23. Every dollar, uh, that that punt gun sells for is going into the Meat Eater Land Access Initiative. Uh, so it's going to a good cause and Rock Island, uh, they're doing us a huge favor. They're waiving all fees that are normally associated with selling a gun through them. So, uh, we appreciate Rock Island for their help in making this happen. Uh, we'll announce these dates when they get closer, uh, but late June, video, mid-July, auction house, late August, uh, the punt gun will be sold.

• 19:28Steven Rinella?

  So those of you out there, the big pile of scratch.

• 19:31Speaker 07

  Orthodontist.

• 19:32Steven Rinella?

  Yep. Um, get that punt gun. And, um, if you do buy it, you want the wall mount brackets. Spencer was too lazy to take them off the wall. Let me know, I'll send them over. Martin fabrication made them.

• 19:45Speaker 07

  RockIslandAuction.com.

• 19:47Steven Rinella?

  Uh, a guy had a Chetekit question. But you gotta resend the question because the way you have it, you're going to hurt people's feelings.

• 19:57Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 19:58Steven Rinella?

  Like he way over described, way over described. You'd have to, this is the guy talking about the skull guy and the skull lady. Resend. They're going to know exactly who you're talking about and then you're going to have no skull people.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Leland.

• 20:17Steven Rinella?

  No-skill people. We got a thing that's gonna, we're gonna have Yanni address where a guy's talking about, basically, he's saying, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater on drones. Drone recovery. Drone recovery. He's got a spirited argument about why drone recovery is great. And you shouldn't make it so you can't use drones to find wounded animals just because people are gonna then also use it to poach. But we'll let Yanni talk about that. A guy wrote in to say, uh, we, we were, uh, we were talking about, uh, data center on the North Slope. We're talking about the oil fields around Prudhoe Bay. How they don't, they don't, uh, pipe out natural liquefied natural gas. Often, natural gas being a byproduct of oil extraction.

• 21:02Steven Rinella?

  He says they truck it down daily, down to Fairbanks in trucks. So there is, there is a commercial liquefied natural gas output coming off there. That correction stands. I travel quite a bit. And when I'm home, it's very easy to stay on a rigid food routine and eat the right kinds of food at the right time. But when you're on the road, it's hard to stay in your routine and like diet can really start to fall apart. I've seen it. And that's why I like Athletic Greens. Now, AG1 is already the standard for daily foundational nutrition. AG1 Pro is what's next. It's built for people who don't want to stop there. Creatine, CAHMB, advanced gut lining support on top of everything AG1 Next Gen already delivers.

• 21:47Steven Rinella?

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• 22:31Steven Rinella?

  This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Now, if you've thought about trying therapy with BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just 23 bucks per session. Hey, you might not know this, you probably don't know this, but World Mental Health Day is October 10, but your brain does not wait around for October 10. You gotta take care of your mental health at all times. And therapy isn't just for like big life choices. It can be a place to talk through small but important things like a work situation, taking up too much mental real estate, a relationship dynamic you can't quite name, or simply the sense that something feels off. If you've been waiting to start therapy,

• 23:16Steven Rinella?

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• 23:57Steven Rinella?

  Black Buffalo products are intended for adults aged 21 and older who are consumers of nicotine or tobacco. Now, you know how long it takes to build something that actually holds up? Well, Black Buffalo spent 20,000 hours on it, 20,000 hours, working alongside American farmers, growing and barn-curing leafy greens to mimic the taste and texture of real dip without the tobacco leaf or stem. That's not a shortcut, that's a commitment. They started this thing in 2015, right here in America, and they got it right. In wintergreen, mint, and straight, the taste you already know, in long cut and pouches.

• 24:42Steven Rinella?

  It dips like the real thing because they refuse to settle for less. Check out your local gas station or convenience store. Chances are it's already on a shelf near you, or head to blackbuffalo.com and use code meat for 30% off your first order. Black Buffalo Tobacco Alternative. It's everything you love about dip, nothing you don't. Now, an interview with our favorite archaeologist, Matt and Aaron. So Matt's been on the show before. If you remember when we did our thing, when, when we did a research, we participated in a research project where we butchered a bison using stone tools.

• 25:25Steven Rinella?

  Matt's been on the show talking about a lot of his archaeological work. When someone sends me or anyone I know a photo of a rock they found and they're wondering if it was, if it's a tool, a human-made tool, we always send the picture to Matten. Matten always says it's not.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do this all the time.

• 25:47Steven Rinella?

  Yep. He's like a professional ballbuster, like professional good times ruiner.

• 25:56Steven Rinella?

  Sorry. I'll be like, look at this crazy axe I found. He's like, that looks like a rock. Not always.

• 26:03Speaker 04

  The burden of expertise.

• 26:05Steven Rinella?

  Yep, yep. Sometimes he will point out that he, this is what makes him great. Sometimes he'll point out he can't tell from that picture. And sometimes you'll point out that that does look like worked stone. So it's not that he just says no, just to, just to be mean. But he puts people in their place. And I always say, when I get a picture of something someone found, I always say, hang on a minute. So if I ever say that to you and you're one of my friends, what I'm doing is I'm sending the picture to Matten for him to vet. Okay. Matt, please tell us about the paper you just published.

• 26:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, so myself and some of my closest colleagues, a guy named Briggs Buchanan at University of Tulsa and Rob Walker at Missouri and Marcus Hamilton down in Texas, we wanted

• 26:52Speaker 03

  To know when the bow and arrow was adopted in prehistoric North America. And this is a question that a lot of archaeologists have struggled with for a pretty long time. And it's a tricky question because usually like the components of a bow and arrow don't preserve. Right? Cause it's wood and sinew and stuff. And so for a really long time, archaeologists have been using stone points to try to figure out the weapon that that stone point went on to. But that's really problematic because you can have little tiny points on arrows, at laddo darts, you can even have tiny points on spears, like thrusting spears.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  And you can have large points on all of those different weapon systems. So you can't use the stone point to figure out the rest of the weapon.

• 27:47Speaker 03

  And so Dave Melzer, uh, who's been on the podcast several times. He said to me a couple of years ago, he's like, why don't you figure this out? So I started to think about it. And there's a statistical technique called optimal linear estimation. And we don't need to get into the, the details of, of that technique because it's pretty boring, but you know, if you like hit a baseball and if you only have like 30% of that baseball's trajectory. And you know, the velocity of the baseball, you can make a pretty good prediction of where that baseball is going to land.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  Kind of what optimal linear estimation does, except we can do it with data and, and radiocarbon dates. And so what my colleagues and I did was we actually went through the literature and we actually have something like 50 preserved components of bows and arrows from really dry caves and, and bows and arrows that like melt out of the ice and stuff like that. And we have 86 preserved components from the at laddo or spear thrower and dart. Also from dry caves and just random occurrences where these things preserve. And because we can date those wooden components, we have radiocarbon dates on all 136

• 29:10Speaker 03

  of those rare archaeological specimens. And so what we did was we applied this technique and we went backwards in time with the bow and arrow. And we went forwards.

• 29:20Speaker 05

  In time with the Atlatl and Dart, we found that they crossed over exactly at fourteen hundred years ago. So that's when the bow and arrow transition from the Atlatl and Dart occurred in Western North America.

• 29:37Steven Rinella?

  Do you, I I've often said this, I should have checked with a guy like you before I said it. I've often told people, and I don't even know where I read this, that that the bow and arrow was perhaps invented. I don't know where I got this number, seven times.

• 29:56Steven Rinella?

  What, when I say that, what am I saying?

• 29:59Speaker 05

  So what you're talking about is the the principle of convergent evolution. And and we see that all the time in the biological world, right? Insects, birds and bats all can fly. But they're not related to each other. They independently evolved the ability to fly. And so we see that with the bow and arrow, right? The bow and arrow was invented, we think, in South Africa about seventy four thousand years ago. It was invented again in Central Europe about fifty four thousand years ago. Sri Lanka forty eight thousand years ago, again in Europe eleven thousand years ago. And what we've shown in this latest paper, it was reinvented once again in North America just fourteen hundred years ago.

• 30:45Speaker 05

  So like, I mean, this is because humans are smart and they have similar.

• 30:52Speaker 05

  Issues that they need to solve, problems they need to solve, and so they'll come up with similar solutions. And so at various points in time, people invented the bow and arrow to tackle whatever problem they were facing.

• 31:04Steven Rinella?

  Now that you have that date.

• 31:08Steven Rinella?

  And you look at the types of stone points that you see from different dated sites.

• 31:15Steven Rinella?

  Does it, does it illuminate anything that you didn't notice before? Meaning, did you sort of rediscover a correlation between an arrow, like in what is commonly called like an Indian arrowhead? Between an arrowhead size and, and what it might have been used for? Like, did you see a shrinking of arrowhead size around 1400 years ago? Now that you, that you have an identified point to look at?

• 31:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, there's general trends where points will get smaller after that point. And then like, you know, five or 600 years after that 1400 year old marker, like the points get real small.

• 31:55Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  So you can be confident if you find like a really tiny point, you're probably dealing with the bow and arrow. Um, but again, probably, right? I mean,

• 32:03Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  The, the, the past doesn't really preserve that well. And so archaeologists should always kind of buffer what they say with, you know, uh, qualifiers.

• 32:14Steven Rinella?

  Do you think there's any chance in identifying what part of, um,

• 32:21Steven Rinella?

  like where this thing sprung up geograph, more specifically?

• 32:24Speaker 03

  Oh, now that's a really good question, right? Because we focused our analysis on this atlatl, the bow transition in Western North America.

• 32:35Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  And that's where stuff preserves, either in super dry caves, like in the Southwest, or if it's, uh, melting out of like ice, right?

• 32:44Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  Well, what our research doesn't speak to is was the bow invented in Western North America? Or was it invented somewhere else? Maybe somewhere in the east? And then it came to Western North America 1400 years ago. We have no idea.

• 33:00Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  And that's a tough question because just stuff does not preserve in the eastern woodlands. Uh, that well, it's too much seasonality, too much moisture, um, and just organic materials just get decimated.

• 33:13Steven Rinella?

  So you wouldn't be shocked if you, if you heard, and I, I appreciate what you're saying, like we, we don't know.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:19Steven Rinella?

  But you wouldn't be shocked if it would be that, that maybe a thousand years earlier, it was being used on the Atlantic coast, say.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  That.

• 33:32Steven Rinella?

  It might have, like, who knows, it might have taken that long to get to the Western U.S., the bow.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  It, that is certainly a possibility.

• 33:39Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  I think the other thing to keep in mind too is it's also possible that the bow and arrow was used a lot earlier, say by pale Indians. And then for some reason it was lost, went extinct. And then nine, 10,000 years later was reinvented 1400 years ago. Um, I think what this research really speaks to is the fact that like, you know, we often think that we're getting better and better and better with our technology. And we often have this view of whether it's biological or cultural or technological evolution that things are getting better and better and better. But species and, and technologies come and go, they go extinct all the time and they get reinvented. There is no progression to evolution.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  Um, and so, uh, people will come up with the best solution, given the context that they're in.

• 34:33Steven Rinella?

  Got it. What else you're working on? What's, what can we expect from your, uh, from your office, your lab next?

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, we got, uh, some pretty big projects that should be coming out next month, I think. Um, I can't talk about those right now just because they're under embargo, but you guys will be the first ones to know when I, when they come out.

• 34:52Steven Rinella?

  Hmm. Give me a little teaser, like, tell me that, tell me that how many years ago we're talking about.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Talking Clovis, 13,000 years.

• 34:59Steven Rinella?

  Clovis.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  We have two big. We got, we got two big papers on, on Clovis hunting and, and different aspects of Clovis hunting.

• 35:10Steven Rinella?

  Um, you better not be trying to come and giving us more of that hogwash about how they weren't killing mammoths left and right.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 35:19Steven Rinella?

  They didn't wake up every day and kill a mammoth. I don't want to hear about it.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  All right, we'll have a chat about that.

• 35:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we got some Clovis stuff coming out. We, uh, we were in Oman in November.

• 35:34Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 35:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, because we've been working there for the last few years. Um, we have a hypothesis that we published. It was last year and that got quite a bit of news on a new hypothesis for the origin of, well, all technology.

• 35:48Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  And so, uh, and that has to do with basically people using naturally sharp rocks to process, uh, game and carcasses. And so really you can tie the origin of technology and the fact that we're looking on iPhones and this screen right now to the fact that people needed to cut meat.

• 36:09Steven Rinella?

  Got it.

• 36:10Speaker 04

  That started everything. And so we were there, uh, in November. That was, I love going to Oman. It's an awesome place. Um, yeah, we got projects in, in Kenya that we'll probably go to next year and just lots of experiments and shooting stuff and.

• 36:26Steven Rinella?

  Good. Keep, keep us posted on the new Clovis work. Again, Matt and Aaron is a professor at Kent State University where he directs the Experimental Archaeology Department. Uh, he and his colleagues, including our friend and former podcast guest, David Meltzer,

• 36:44Steven Rinella?

  have both, uh, what am I trying to say? Both been on, yeah, whatever. You get the point.

• 36:50Steven Rinella?

  Kent State University Experimental Archaeology Department. Thank you very much for joining and, uh, we always look forward to anything you can come and tell us about ancient hunters. So appreciate you joining.

• 37:01Speaker 04

  Hey, thanks.

• 37:04Steven Rinella?

  Okay. Wild turkeys ambush California senior citizen. But they don't ambush. The, this story was sent to us. Brody, can you, can you give the basic gist here? Or aren't you that familiar?

• 37:16Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I can give the basic gist in California, like recently an elderly woman, uh, in the, the San Francisco area was out walking and got attacked by a couple of turkeys.

• 37:28Steven Rinella?

  Town turkeys.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, urban tur- and that's like, like that segment of the wild turkey population has grown pretty fast. Like they're, they're pretty common in suburbia and, and even like urban areas.

• 37:41Steven Rinella?

  But she is bruised and cut.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  You got those pictures of her, Phil?

• 37:47Speaker 03

  Oh, I'll, I'll, I'll pull them up here, Brody. I thought you were talking about the other turkey graphic you sent me. I'll pull them up.

• 37:51Speaker 04

  Oh, no, we got.

• 37:52Speaker 05

  Pull that up in a minute.

• 37:53Steven Rinella?

  We got Boku turkey graph going on here. That's French. It's a good problem.

• 37:57Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. She, she, uh, she had some injuries to her face and fell. And, and I did a little research while we were getting this whole thing together this morning. And that's actually one of the most common injuries when wild turkeys ambush people.

• 38:14Steven Rinella?

  Well, that, that, see, that's why I wanted to cover the story, but then Brody did additional research. Can I cover my bit first?

• 38:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:23Steven Rinella?

  If, okay. There's two main, yeah, I was gonna complain about another thing. I was gonna say like two main complaints I have in life, but I'm gonna skip the other one. Journalists need to better understand what an ambush is. They, I was gonna find a hundred examples of journalists not understanding an ambush.

• 38:50Steven Rinella?

  They're like, these turkeys, they use the word. Here's the, the poor woman that was beat up by the turkeys. These turkeys came up behind her and ta- and attacked her and the journalist says they ambushed her. It's not an ambush. Journalists never know what an ambush is.

• 39:06Speaker 05

  Right.

• 39:08Steven Rinella?

  For the turkeys to have ambushed her, they would have need to gone out ahead of her.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Lying wait.

• 39:13Steven Rinella?

  Laid in wait or waited outside her door concealed, laying in wait. Jur- like, my message to America's journalists is please try to understand what an ambush is.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  There has to be some element of concealment.

• 39:29Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I, I was reading a story. They ambushed, so there's like some police parked in the car and they're attacked by a person. And they said he ambushed them. It's like, no, he didn't. He walked up on them.

• 39:41Steven Rinella?

  She was not ambushed.

• 39:42Speaker 05

  No.

• 39:43Steven Rinella?

  She was attacked. There's ambushing, bushwhacking. Brody was pointing out a guy using the term Shanghai-ing. I don't know what that means, but like you could Shanghai a turkey. But like, she's not, she was attacked. She wasn't ambushed. You could ambush and then attack.

• 40:03Speaker 05

  And attack is like, there's levels of attack, right? There's like grizzly bear attacks and there's turkey attacks.

• 40:09Steven Rinella?

  If I, like, I would be more comfortable saying that these turkeys bushwhacker.

• 40:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 40:16Steven Rinella?

  Cause to bushwhack a turkey is to kill it without calling it in. To ditch crawl on it.

• 40:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:22Steven Rinella?

  Or hill crawl, whatever. To like, put the creep on a turkey is bushwhacking it. So it'd be more like, they came in blind on her and bushwhacked her. They didn't ambush her.

• 40:34Speaker 05

  But her injuries were from falling. And that's typical of, of wild turkey attacks where an elderly person ends up falling while they're being attacked.

• 40:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they, they, there was a turkey that kept attacking the elderly. And a, and a wildlife officer wanted to catch it. They had to dress up like an old lady and act like an old lady to lure the attack.

• 40:58Speaker 05

  That's ambushing the turkey. Like they were profiling their victim.

• 41:02Steven Rinella?

  No, that's Trojan horsing it.

• 41:06Steven Rinella?

  And then they strangleholed. The wildlife official dressed up like an old lady, pretended to be an old lady to lure the attack, and then they threw it into a stranglehold.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  It's like holding on to a live wild turkey. It's hard enough when they're wounded a bit after you shoot them.

• 41:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  You gotta hold on to their neck.

• 41:26Steven Rinella?

  Sure, man.

• 41:27Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um, Phil, do you got the how to survive a wild turkey attack?

• 41:31Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, Brody found this.

• 41:34Speaker 05

  This is, this is, uh, I gotta, there's a quote here about, uh,

• 41:38Steven Rinella?

  Someone actually made this. This is better than Spencer's garden chart.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  It is.

• 41:41Speaker 05

  Umbrellas.

• 41:42Steven Rinella?

  There's a lot of blinking animations.

• 41:44Speaker 05

  We, we saw tips like umbrellas, uh, carrying a garbage bag around and, and unfolding that garbage bag and like waving it at the turkeys.

• 41:52Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 41:53Speaker 05

  Um, so don't back down.

• 41:54Steven Rinella?

  Carrying a big garden hose with you can help?

• 41:56Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 41:57Steven Rinella?

  If it's hooked up.

• 41:58Speaker 05

  How to defeat a bully turkey. Don't back down.

• 42:02Steven Rinella?

  Who put this how to defeat a bully turkey?

• 42:03Speaker 05

  That's the funny thing. Those are two different articles in the Audubon Society.

• 42:07Speaker 04

  Phil, what is it? What does it say? There's umbrella question mark and there's two words above that like?

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Uh, it says like this umbrella?

• 42:17Speaker 04

  Oh, I see.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  Flow chart.

• 42:18Steven Rinella?

  It's telling you not to wave your hands.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  But it also looks mostly empty, but this is, this is what it looked like on the website though, Brody.

• 42:24Speaker 06

  Create stuff like this on our website.

• 42:26Speaker 05

  Missing, it didn't, but you get the picture.

• 42:29Steven Rinella?

  Why is the turkey on the bottom talking on the phone?

• 42:30Speaker 04

  I see. I see that.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Call in officer.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  I feel like that box, I feel like that box on the left side in the middle should say, do you have anything with you?

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 42:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think some of our, our, it, it didn't download the right way.

• 42:45Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's a bad job. But yeah, it's saying, like, if you don't have a shotgun, it's saying.

• 42:54Speaker 04

  Spray it with water.

• 42:55Steven Rinella?

  Hose it down, shake a bag at it.

• 42:58Speaker 05

  But that's the thing.

• 42:58Steven Rinella?

  Waving umbrella at it.

• 42:59Speaker 05

  You can only do so much to these things, right? Cause they're, they're wild animals. So you can't, your hands are kind of tied as far as like what you can do to fight them off.

• 43:09Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, don't gobble at it.

• 43:10Speaker 06

  Here's a question. What if you just like, you're like boo and you run at it?

• 43:15Steven Rinella?

  I think that'd work. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't gobble at it. Wouldn't hand call at it.

• 43:19Speaker 03

  If you go boo, it'll probably gobble at you.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Don't run up to it with a jank decoy.

• 43:25Steven Rinella?

  It's a real problem, these town turkeys.

• 43:28Speaker 05

  Okay, we're going to Oregon now. Um, in the news a lot lately has been this, uh, Oregon hunting ban petition. A lot of the headlines that I feel like have been kind of misleading because it's like saying they have, they have enough signatures to ban hunting in Oregon, which is not the, not the case. So we're going to go through the whole thing. Um, the Oregon Peace Act, which is people for the elimination of animal cruelty exemptions. Uh,

• 43:59Steven Rinella?

  I think they started with knowing what they wanted the acronym to be.

• 44:04Speaker 05

  Mm hmm. And then figuring it out.

• 44:06Steven Rinella?

  Reverse engineer it because you want, you know, I always tell when someone does that because they wind up with something real clunky.

• 44:11Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 44:12Steven Rinella?

  People for the elimination of animal cruelty exemptions because they wanted to be able to call it peace.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  But I feel like if you're in the acronym business, that's, that's not a bad strategy.

• 44:22Speaker 05

  It's like when Congress came up with the genius act, which it, which is,

• 44:25Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. They knew what they wanted to call it first and then they had to think of a bunch of words that would make that up.

• 44:32Speaker 05

  Okay. So the Peace Act would remove many exemptions in Oregon's animal cruelty laws that currently allow hunting, fishing, trapping, livestock production and slaughter and other animal use practices.

• 44:46Speaker 05

  So basically it would, it would outlaw all of that stuff. And supporters, uh, say the proposal would extend the same legal protections currently given to pets.

• 45:00Speaker 05

  You know, you can see where this is going. It's, it's, it's very, a very extreme thing. And, and it was kind of engineered by this guy, David Mickelson. We, we got our, our photo of David.

• 45:13Steven Rinella?

  Dude.

• 45:14Speaker 05

  Would you like to?

• 45:14Steven Rinella?

  That's an ad for vegan diet right there, man.

• 45:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:20Speaker 05

  So David kind of, kind of is at this, is spearheading this thing. Um,

• 45:26Steven Rinella?

  That's a ru-, that is a rugged lifestyle.

• 45:29Speaker 05

  Yeah. It doesn't look like he's got a lot of energy to run this thing, but, but anyway, they got the signatures. I think it was, uh,

• 45:38Speaker 05

  120,000 signatures. They needed 117,000 to get this thing on the ballot. Um, little background on Mickelson, the background in psychology, public health. He said activism was in, his activism was influenced by witnesses witnessing pigs being killed in slaughterhouses.

• 45:58Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 45:58Speaker 05

  And he has tried earlier versions of this, this same thing in Oregon. Um, he acknowledges the, the initiative is unlikely to pass and has described it as part of a longer term effort to change public attitudes around human use of animals. They want to change the system. Killing animals is a choice, he says. We can make 100% of that food from crops if we chose to do so. So obviously, uh, this is like very broad in scope. It's not just a hunting issue.

• 46:33Steven Rinella?

  It'll never pass.

• 46:34Speaker 05

  No, I will get to that. We'll see, see what the odds are. Um, obviously hunters like groups like the Oregon Hunters Association, Ducks Unlimited, National Wild Turkey Foundation, on and on and on with these hunting groups are opposed to this, but it's a lot bigger than hunters. The Oregon Farm Bureau, ranching groups, et cetera, argue that, you know, it would just completely change, fundamentally change their way of life for the worse. Um, Senator Christine Dragan, Oregon Republican gubernatorial candidate says it's an all out assault on Oregonians way of life. Um, that would expose farmers, ranchers, veterinarians, breeders and animal owners

• 47:17Speaker 05

  to criminal liability. Uh, so, um, if the measure reaches voters, which is likely to happen, it's, it's likely to get on the ballot. Um, it's unlikely to be voted into law. Oregon has more than 330,000 licensed hunters, 500,000 licensed anglers, 70,000 farms and ranches involved in livestock production. Um, cattle, sheep, dairy, goats, poultry, hogs, roughly 1.25 million cattle and calves, uh, and 525,000 beef cows. Um,

• 47:59Speaker 05

  This is where it gets good. 3.4 million registered voters in Oregon. 170,000 to maybe 270,000 of those voters identify as either vegetarian or vegan.

• 48:13Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 48:14Speaker 05

  Five to eight percent of the state's voting age population. So, not looking good for it to pass. Um, I asked AI what the odds are. Um, of making the ballot 85 to 95% at the ballot, 80% chance it fails, 20% it passes. Now that's AI, so, but that's like-

• 48:37Steven Rinella?

  What's it pulling from, like, polymarket data?

• 48:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, political betting market.

• 48:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 05

  And 20% is, you know, it's not, nothing.

• 48:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:46Steven Rinella?

  You know, this brings up a question I've always pondered, is, I'm a law and order guy.

• 48:51Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:52Steven Rinella?

  Right? I'm not, I'm not like a lawbreaker.

• 48:55Steven Rinella?

  And I was raised up lawbreaking, but gave up on it. If this happened in my state, I feel like I would become a vigilante hunter.

• 49:04Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, for sure.

• 49:06Steven Rinella?

  Like, I wouldn't flat out, right? I wouldn't flat out quit. I would become a vigilante angler.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 49:14Steven Rinella?

  Jimmy, I wouldn't like, I'm not gonna quit.

• 49:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:16Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I'm saying? I'd just be like, well, I guess I'm a poacher now.

• 49:19Speaker 05

  Yep. Exactly.

• 49:21Speaker 03

  It would be like, if you were, if you were a hunter, instead of like getting all your stuff in during a season, you'd be like, I'm getting low, it's time to go get a doe or something.

• 49:28Steven Rinella?

  Just cuz I'm just like, I'm not gonna abide. I'm like, it's, it's gone too far. I don't trust the system anymore, and now I'm just on my own.

• 49:37Speaker 06

  Or, or would you leave the state?

• 49:39Steven Rinella?

  No, cuz I'm, I'm not gonna say it, cuz these, these people from this neck of the woods, they're always hunting. They don't stick close to home.

• 49:47Speaker 05

  Leaving the state is like-

• 49:49Steven Rinella?

  Washington and Minnesota dudes.

• 49:53Steven Rinella?

  One goes one direction, one goes the other direction.

• 49:55Speaker 05

  Plus leaving the.

• 49:56Steven Rinella?

  Guess where they land.

• 49:56Speaker 05

  Leaving the state is like when someone from Hollywood's like, I'm moving to France.

• 50:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 50:01Speaker 05

  You know, you're giving up.

• 50:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, there, yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 05

  The weird thing about this, though, i- is how broad it is compared to a lot of these ballot measures that pop up, like the cat hunting thing in Colorado. Um, which is like, they, they usually like, it's really specific, which I think gives these things a better chance of passing, but.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 50:21Speaker 05

  This is like.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  This is like being done for a stunt.

• 50:25Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. He's, he's doing the, the PETA thing.

• 50:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:29Steven Rinella?

  PETA, the point for PETA is not to have, not to make progress. The point for PETA is to perpetuate PETA by making the news.

• 50:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:39Steven Rinella?

  So they propose things they know are a dead end because then the press, like how we're doing right now.

• 50:46Steven Rinella?

  We'll talk about.

• 50:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:47Steven Rinella?

  And then they'll be like, the news story, like anytime PETA makes news, it's the news saying, what will they think of next?

• 50:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:54Steven Rinella?

  This is ridiculous. And they're like, ha, sweet, we did it, we're in the news. So we're falling for that little Moby looking dude.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:00Steven Rinella?

  We're falling for his.

• 51:02Speaker 05

  Playing into his hands.

• 51:03Steven Rinella?

  We're playing right into his hands.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  And the other thing too about these, these stunts is like they're gathering signatures so they could go to a farmer's market and just tell people, would you like to sign this to put in the ballot measure and play.

• 51:18Speaker 05

  And be very vague about what it is.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  You can say, you can say it's to end like lab testing on animals, or you could say it's this or that, you know, and.

• 51:27Steven Rinella?

  But if they're at the farmer's market, the farmers are gonna kick their ass.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  Well, I'm just thinking of like, where do you go when you're trying to.

• 51:32Speaker 05

  There's probably vegan farmer markets in Portland.

• 51:35Speaker 04

  Baseball game, but I don't think they've had much luck outside of a baseball game.

• 51:39Steven Rinella?

  Beat him with a hot dog.

• 51:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, there.

• 51:40Speaker 05

  But they did, what Randall's saying did get me thinking, like, we should do some ma- like man on the street reporting at Whole Foods or wherever, when we find out one of these things is going on, like send someone there.

• 51:51Steven Rinella?

  Oh, that'd be good, dude.

• 51:52Speaker 06

  That'd be a good segment.

• 51:53Speaker 05

  You know, like ask some people some questions.

• 51:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:57Speaker 05

  Anyway.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Spencer asked good questions.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  That's what's going on.

• 51:59Steven Rinella?

  Spencer's answer, yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 52:01Steven Rinella?

  He'll be real thoughtful.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I, uh, I unanimated that flow chart, so it filled in all the text.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  Oh, stand your ground.

• 52:08Speaker 06

  Back to the turkey flow chart, guys.

• 52:09Steven Rinella?

  Um, I'm over it. I'm over it. If the turkey attacks, you strangle it.

• 52:14Speaker 06

  But it's not blinking anymore.

• 52:15Steven Rinella?

  But tag it. But the, the point, one thing I was bringing up is you better make sure it's attacking you because if not, you'd be harassing wildlife.

• 52:22Speaker 05

  Well, that's what I'm saying.

• 52:22Steven Rinella?

  You can't walk up to wildlife and beat it with an umbrella.

• 52:24Speaker 05

  When I said there's only so much you can do, like you can't kill them, right? Unless like.

• 52:29Steven Rinella?

  Well, if it's risk, like.

• 52:30Speaker 05

  I guess.

• 52:31Steven Rinella?

  If that, if that poor old lady had killed that turkey, no one's gonna prosecute her.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 52:35Steven Rinella?

  It's not like she, like stole a mouse from the wild and detained it.

• 52:40Speaker 05

  You can't lay out poison for them.

• 52:43Speaker 06

  Um, okay, speaking of bans, uh, here's some news from my home state of New York. Um, Senate Bill S 9473 was recently proposed, so we're not sure if it's gonna go through or not. Um, but it's called the Lead-Free Game Donation Act. And, um, if it gets, uh, if it goes through, then it would be a prohibition on donating lead shot while-gave meat to food pantries. Um, so actually this surprised me. New York, if this, if this were to go through, New York would be the second state after only Minnesota

• 53:22Speaker 06

  to ensure that, um, lead potentially contaminated meat, um, wouldn't be, uh, donated to food banks and, and pantries. So let's play a little game. How much wild game do you think is donated per year to food banks across the country?

• 53:40Steven Rinella?

  Across the country?

• 53:41Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:42Steven Rinella?

  I have no idea.

• 53:43Speaker 07

  Twenty thousand pounds.

• 53:44Speaker 05

  Oh, no.

• 53:45Steven Rinella?

  Way more than that.

• 53:45Speaker 04

  A million.

• 53:46Speaker 05

  A million, yeah.

• 53:47Speaker 07

  What is it?

• 53:47Speaker 06

  So apparently, uh, recently, last year, it was 1,100 tons.

• 53:54Speaker 06

  Of wild harvested game meat.

• 53:56Speaker 05

  Gotta do the zeros on that.

• 53:58Speaker 06

  Yep, one thousand, one, one, yeah.

• 54:02Steven Rinella?

  What, what they're missing here is no one's been able to demonstrate,

• 54:07Steven Rinella?

  no one's been able to demonstrate a correlation between lead poisoning and consumption of wild game. It's a completely open question.

• 54:13Speaker 06

  I, I thought they have. There was, there was one, there was one study that I saw. It was like, um, some individuals were consuming, um, lead shot wild game meat. And their, uh, lead, their, the blood, the lead levels in their blood were X. And then they transitioned to, to consuming non-lead shot game meat. And the blood lev- levels, uh, decreased.

• 54:37Steven Rinella?

  I don't wanna see that. Well, I mean, I remember the one they did where they like took hunters and urban dwellers, and the urban dwellers had higher lead from environmental lead contamination than the hunters had.

• 54:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I think it's hard to.

• 54:47Steven Rinella?

  What are you supposed to do? Fill out a question? Like, you're gonna ask people, what'd you shoot it with?

• 54:50Speaker 06

  So, um, so we'll go, I'm gonna just, let me see. So, for example, in Minnesota,

• 55:00Speaker 06

  you, if, if you are a hunter who's donating meat, you actually have to get your meat processed by a Minnesota Department of Ag registered Meat Processing Plant. And they will in fact x-ray the meat for lead fragments. So, in New York, I think that they would probably transition to something similar. Um, and then, but these are, that Minnesota's the only state that has this. So in California, for example, um, for hu- hunting of any kind, you can't use lead ammo. So there isn't a worry there. And then there are two other states that have, um, rules around warning labels. So that would be Iowa and South Dakota.

• 55:46Speaker 06

  Um, at, at food banks, if they're distributing meat, wild game meat, on the bag it says, "Not tested for lead", and there's a lead warning to, uh, pregnant women and children. All other states, it's just. There's, there's, there's nothing in place against this. So in any case, this bill,

• 56:09Speaker 06

  lawmakers expect it to be reintroduced and pursued in 2027. It's gone through a couple of committees. They don't think it'll come up again this year, but next year, we'll look out for it.

• 56:22Steven Rinella?

  Man, well, the thing I don't get about it a little bit is, um, how am I still alive?

• 56:29Speaker 06

  Have we ever tested your, have we tested your blood level? Has anyone ever gotten that stuff tested?

• 56:35Steven Rinella?

  I feel like I have had that done. I don't know. I should test my kids, too. They should be dead or in debt.

• 56:42Steven Rinella?

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• 57:23Steven Rinella?

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• 58:04Steven Rinella?

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• 58:47Steven Rinella?

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• 59:24Speaker 06

  One more quick bit out of New York. This is positive news for the hunting community. We, we almost reported about this the other week. And then, and then a veto got overturned. So, in the county, in Erie County, which is western New York where the capital Buffalo is, there was a, there was a proposal to veto a youth hunting law that exists in the state, which is that youth, teenagers can use a crossbow, a rifle, a shotgun, or a

• 1:00:05Speaker 06

  muzzle, muzzle loading firearm to hunt if supervised. And a county executive...

• 1:00:13Speaker 06

  Went against this. So last week it was like, oh my gosh, you know, teens and youth in Erie County can't hunt, supervise with these means. But then the county legislator actually overrode the county executive's veto and adopted the youth hunting law. So it was eight to three. There were three Democrats who upheld the veto and two Democrats joined, six Republicans to override the veto. So

• 1:00:45Steven Rinella?

  That's what I like to hear, man. Splitting them Dems off.

• 1:00:47Speaker 06

  Yep, they're split. And so now youth 12 and 12 and up, I think it's 12 to 15 or 12 to 16, can use those, those crossbow rifle shotgun and muzzleloader to hunt deer.

• 1:01:06Speaker 05

  It's a, how, how can a county like decide they're not gonna follow a statewide hunting law?

• 1:01:11Steven Rinella?

  How's that a county issue?

• 1:01:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  Very strange.

• 1:01:15Steven Rinella?

  Imagine they did that and you're like living in that county and in all the other counties you can do it. In your county, you can't do it.

• 1:01:22Speaker 05

  It's just weird.

• 1:01:23Steven Rinella?

  Man, I don't want to get into this vigil, I don't want to push this vigilante. I wouldn't vigilante that.

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  The legis, quote from the guy, the legislature has an opportunity to override my veto and they may do that. And if they do it, that's their constitutional right. But if they do that and a child dies in the future, my conscience will be clean.

• 1:01:42Speaker 06

  Oh, boy. Oh, come on.

• 1:01:44Steven Rinella?

  He knows he's in the wrong. He knows, he regretted it probably pretty quick. And then he had to do like a little deal like that to try to make it smooth it over.

• 1:01:52Speaker 06

  And this law has existed since 2021 and there have been no reported hunting related shooting incidents, violations or license revocations. But I think this county exec and others will, will, will look at incidents across the country and say, what if?

• 1:02:11Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. So I see here the, to the question of the county, it looks like they, the state department of environmental, blah, blah, blah. They, they said,

• 1:02:27Speaker 04

  Twelve to thirteen year olds can hunt with firearm or crossbow in counties that have passed local legislation. So they sort of like empowered counties to opt into this pilot program.

• 1:02:37Steven Rinella?

  Wow, they're making it a county by county issue. That's some confusing game laws, man.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:02:43Steven Rinella?

  County by county. Cause you're, think about-

• 1:02:46Speaker 06

  Do you have to be a resident of the county?

• 1:02:50Steven Rinella?

  It'd be where, I'm sure it'd be where you are. But I mean, come on, man. You go to locate, hey, what county are you in, buddy? I don't know, my dad's-

• 1:02:58Speaker 04

  And what if, what if you have a property that spans county lines? Can you shoot?

• 1:03:02Steven Rinella?

  I don't, that's what I'm saying. That's where it gets, that's where it gets such horseshit.

• 1:03:06Speaker 04

  Your stand is in county X and the deer is walking out a hundred yards away in county Y.

• 1:03:11Steven Rinella?

  That's stupid. You should really not do game laws by the county by county. So, I mean, something as fundamental as like what age can you hunt with what weapon?

• 1:03:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Steven Rinella?

  Should not be a county by county issue.

• 1:03:24Steven Rinella?

  Anyhow, Spencer's been out fishing.

• 1:03:26Speaker 07

  All right, some fishing news. Uh, West Virginia has produced five new state record fish in the last two months. Let's talk about them.

• 1:03:33Speaker 04

  Goodness gracious.

• 1:03:34Speaker 07

  First one, April 2nd.

• 1:03:36Steven Rinella?

  Oh, good lord.

• 1:03:37Speaker 07

  Fifteen year old Hunter Rohr catches a twenty-eight inch, eleven point eight four pound golden rainbow trout on the south branch.

• 1:03:47Steven Rinella?

  That's like a make believe fish.

• 1:03:48Speaker 04

  Dude, we have that fish's tail.

• 1:03:49Steven Rinella?

  I was gonna say-

• 1:03:50Speaker 04

  They love, we call them palaminos.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, we call them palaminos back there.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  People love those. I don't get it, but they're very easy to find in a stream.

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  I spent, I spent hours trying to catch those things. It's like a hive, is it, is it fertile or not fertile? It's a hybrid trout.

• 1:04:07Speaker 07

  Let me tell you about it. So every spring-

• 1:04:09Steven Rinella?

  Are, are you gonna include what's wrong with that fish? It's sick.

• 1:04:13Speaker 07

  I, well, I don't know what's up with its tail. My guess is this picture is just taken.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  Being in the raceway and rubbing up against cement, man. Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. That's, that's what we called brood stock. So that fish sat-

• 1:04:25Speaker 07

  It's what everybody calls brood stock.

• 1:04:26Steven Rinella?

  Well, let Spencer do his little news report, but I think that he's embarrassed that he didn't realize that that, something's wrong with that fish.

• 1:04:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, from living his whole life in a hatchery.

• 1:04:34Speaker 07

  Every spring during an event called the- That the West Virginia Department of Natural Resources refers to as Gold Rush. They release golden rainbow trout across the state. This year, they stocked 50,000 of them in 69 different lakes and streams. Now, these are not to be confused with the California golden trout, which is a native species to the Sierra Nevadas. Some consider those California golden trout to be their own species. Some say it's a subspecies of the coastal rainbow. Either way, that is not this fish. These are West Virginia golden rainbow trout, also known as palomino trout or banana trout. They were made at a West Virginia hatchery.

• 1:05:14Steven Rinella?

  Can you zoom in on my fingers?

• 1:05:16Speaker 07

  Back in the 1950s.

• 1:05:18Speaker 03

  They're not on camera.

• 1:05:20Speaker 07

  The first stocking being in 1962. And they were created after a regular rainbow trout was born with a mutation that gave it gold coloring. They then took that trout's offspring and produced and continued to breed them to create the founding population of palomino trout that we know today. Now, this angler caught this fish on day three of Gold Rush. He was using eggs from a steelhead that he caught out of a stream near Lake Erie. The 15-year-old said the fight lasted two minutes and that the fish was, quote, "too fat to jump." It broke the old record. Broke the old record by more than two pounds. The angler said that they filleted the fish after the record was verified.

• 1:06:03Steven Rinella?

  He's stealing my hair, man.

• 1:06:05Speaker 04

  Why does it taste like fish pellets? It was missing half its motor there, too.

• 1:06:09Speaker 07

  Here's the weirdest part of the whole story that we've already addressed. Golden rainbow trout, they don't reproduce after they're stocked. The bright color makes them an easy target for predators, and they also very, very rarely survive the hottest parts of the summer in West Virginia. Here's a quote from a fish biologist about palomino trout that are stocked in West Virginia's northern neighbor, Pennsylvania. Quote, "It would be highly unexpected to find a golden rainbow trout surviving as a holdover into the next year." So, this state record was most likely stocked three days prior by West Virginia.

• 1:06:44Steven Rinella?

  That's what I'm saying. That's why you're even talking about it.

• 1:06:46Speaker 07

  Because it's good fodder to talk about West Virginia stocking a state record that some 15-year-old catches three days later.

• 1:06:53Steven Rinella?

  Remember that guy that killed that 1,100-pound hog or something?

• 1:06:55Speaker 07

  Hogzilla.

• 1:06:56Steven Rinella?

  And then that dude's like, "I just sold him that hog." It's I got pictures of it in my truck.

• 1:07:01Speaker 05

  I'll tell you what these things were good for is finding the other fish. Cause these things can't hide. So you find one, you're like, ooh, there's a bunch of them.

• 1:07:08Steven Rinella?

  The only interesting thing about this image is that man has a very good belt.

• 1:07:14Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:07:15Steven Rinella?

  I used to wear that belt. You can rapple. You could rapple off that belt. The way that cam works, you can clip a carabiner onto that point. I have that belt. My kid wears mine now.

• 1:07:24Speaker 07

  I I reached out to the West Virginia DNR for their take. Did this fish defy the odds and survive a previous stocking? Or did they release it two days prior? I know, but I want to hear them say it. I want to hear the West Virginia DNR. Somebody else be like, yeah, we just let it off of a truck three days prior. Uh, that would satisfy me. So I reached out to them. Have not heard back yet.

• 1:07:43Steven Rinella?

  Oh, God, I got excited for a minute.

• 1:07:45Speaker 05

  I don't think you're gonna hear back from them.

• 1:07:46Speaker 07

  Uh, that that was state record number one. Here's state record number two. Donnie Workman.

• 1:07:51Steven Rinella?

  There we go.

• 1:07:52Speaker 05

  Another man made trout.

• 1:07:53Speaker 07

  Nicholas County, uh, sets a new state record for a tiger trout at Summit Lake.

• 1:08:00Steven Rinella?

  You gotta stop. That's another make believe fish.

• 1:08:02Speaker 07

  13.32 pound fish. Uh, let me tell you about it.

• 1:08:06Speaker 03

  It's a make believe guy.

• 1:08:07Speaker 07

  Donnie was using mealworms and orange salmon eggs. Uh, he caught the fish on eight pound test. West Virginia keeps records for length and weight and Donnie's fish now holds both of those. Uh, weighed half a pound more than the old record, uh, which was caught in 2025. It measured half an inch longer than the old record, which was caught less than a month earlier. All three of those state record tiger trout were caught from three different bodies of water, which is pretty unique. Uh, but similar to the banana trout, the tiger trout is largely a synthetic fish. Uh, that's made by crossing a female brown with a male brook. Uh, there is some.

• 1:08:43Steven Rinella?

  I like how he's got it tied up with his boot lace though, man.

• 1:08:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, he doesn't need a stringer.

• 1:08:47Speaker 06

  He's probably been fishing for 80 years and he finally got a record.

• 1:08:50Speaker 05

  You know what?

• 1:08:50Steven Rinella?

  I bought that guy.

• 1:08:51Speaker 05

  I figured out that Spencer loves these manmade fish because he used to work in fish hatcheries.

• 1:08:56Speaker 07

  I did. Mm-hmm. Uh, now there is some natural reproduction in the wild, but the vast majority of tiger trout come from a hatchery. Uh, West Virginia did some stocking in the 1960s and 80s and then they restarted the program in 2019. So this rush of tiger trout records is not really a surprise.

• 1:09:13Steven Rinella?

  So the next one's gonna be like, oh, new record, Chuck E. Cheese Bermuda trout.

• 1:09:17Speaker 05

  Did, uh, did Donnie eat that thing?

• 1:09:19Speaker 07

  I would bet Donnie ate that thing. We're, we're looking at pictures of these state record fish now and Donnie is, uh, someone who I refer to as a paid actor. Because he looks like a fella who would be catching the state record tiger trout in West Virginia.

• 1:09:33Steven Rinella?

  Okay, is the next thing a real fish?

• 1:09:35Speaker 07

  Uh, state record number three was a chain pickerel.

• 1:09:38Steven Rinella?

  Oh, there we go.

• 1:09:41Speaker 07

  It gets a little, uh, fake here in a second. Matt Born caught a 28 incher on April 21st. Uh, he was fishing a private pond in Preston County. Uh, the fish beat the old record by less than a quarter of an inch, which was a record that he set in 2019.

• 1:09:58Steven Rinella?

  What's fake about that?

• 1:09:59Speaker 07

  The previous record came from the same pond. Well, he has a private pond that's obviously growing giant chain pickerel. So it's, it's not fake, but you know, it's like.

• 1:10:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's a lot better than other fish.

• 1:10:10Speaker 07

  It's, you know, this, this same private pond is produced.

• 1:10:13Steven Rinella?

  He's got his tied up too.

• 1:10:14Speaker 07

  Chain pickerel, uh, in 2019.

• 1:10:16Speaker 05

  And I don't know how familiar you are with chain pickerel, but that's a fricking giant.

• 1:10:20Speaker 03

  That is a huge one.

• 1:10:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's a disappointing fish to fish for, cause you'd never get a big one.

• 1:10:25Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:10:25Speaker 07

  Uh, and Matt was using a homemade spinner that he created the night before, so that's way cool.

• 1:10:30Steven Rinella?

  That's cool.

• 1:10:30Speaker 07

  Uh, he's fishing from a kayak and he said the battle lasted 10 minutes with the pickerel towing him around the pond. Which again, pickerel don't grow all that big, so that is a water.

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  Oh, 10 minutes? What, what's he using for tackle?

• 1:10:41Steven Rinella?

  He had a 10 minute tussle. He had a tussle with that fish that pulled him around a pond?

• 1:10:46Speaker 07

  I imagine he was using some ultra light tackle.

• 1:10:49Steven Rinella?

  Pulled him around the pond?

• 1:10:50Speaker 07

  That's what he said.

• 1:10:51Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, if I caught that thing, it would be about three seconds, I'd boat float him.

• 1:10:56Speaker 07

  He plans to get the fish.

• 1:10:57Steven Rinella?

  Pulled him around the pond.

• 1:10:58Speaker 07

  Plans to get the fish mounted and will display it with his previous record that is also mounted.

• 1:11:03Steven Rinella?

  Oh, so he killed the previous record, so that's not the previous record a year later.

• 1:11:08Speaker 07

  No, he, well, the previous record is from 2019. So I don't think this is the 2019.

• 1:11:12Steven Rinella?

  I for a minute thought you were suggesting that he keeps catching this fish and keeps breaking its own record.

• 1:11:19Speaker 07

  But I bet the next state record is also swimming around that pond.

• 1:11:21Steven Rinella?

  But I don't think you can blame the dude because it's a private pond.

• 1:11:24Speaker 07

  I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying if you were disappointed with the, with the fish hatchery, uh, fish, you, you're not going to love the private pond.

• 1:11:32Speaker 03

  I'm jealous his pond. Yeah.

• 1:11:33Steven Rinella?

  Spencer likes the wrong people.

• 1:11:36Speaker 04

  But I also think if the DNR is dumping fish somewhere and you go out and catch one and you're like a public access guy, you're just showing up to the river.

• 1:11:47Speaker 07

  You hating those people is you hating Brody and Seth.

• 1:11:50Steven Rinella?

  No, no, no, no, you're mixing up what I hate. I don't, I don't think if, if, if the state has a hatchery and they have brood stock and they take some diseased, tailless fish and like throw it out into a creek and a dude catches it, that's fine. I just don't think it's news.

• 1:12:08Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 1:12:09Speaker 04

  It's a state record, man.

• 1:12:10Speaker 07

  It's a state record. I think if it's.

• 1:12:12Speaker 04

  Forever enshrined.

• 1:12:13Speaker 07

  The fifth state record in two months.

• 1:12:14Speaker 04

  And West Virginia angling history.

• 1:12:17Speaker 07

  A fourth state record was a red horse sucker caught by Zach Roper in Fayette County. It weighed six and a half pounds. Uh, measured 25 and a half inches. He caught that on May 7th. Uh, just like the tiger trout, this fish now holds the length and weight record in West Virginia. One pound heavier and one inch longer than the old record, which was caught in 2025. Uh, the angler was using corn when he caught that fish.

• 1:12:43Speaker 04

  I like the guys in the background taking pictures of the wrong thing, something else. They have a state record red horse sucker right there.

• 1:12:50Steven Rinella?

  Talk about like hiding in plain sight. They, they're taking scenic, not realizing that what they're actually looking at out the corner of their left eye is a state record.

• 1:12:58Speaker 04

  State record rough fish.

• 1:12:59Speaker 07

  And he was, uh, fishing at Canowa Falls. So maybe that's what that, that fellow in the red shirt.

• 1:13:04Steven Rinella?

  This is getting better because that's a legit fish. In a legit location, that's a fish. That's a fish of a lifetime.

• 1:13:13Speaker 07

  Although they often get lumped in with carp, redhorse are a sucker that's native to central and eastern North America. As the name implies, they have red fins. They get especially colorful during the spawn. Now, here's the most interesting thing about redhorse. They're actually the fish on the trivia logo that we have. That is a redhorse.

• 1:13:29Steven Rinella?

  Impressive fish, yeah.

• 1:13:29Speaker 07

  Right there.

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  Grind them up into sucker balls.

• 1:13:31Steven Rinella?

  What's that guy's name?

• 1:13:32Speaker 07

  Uh, Zach Roper.

• 1:13:34Steven Rinella?

  Congratulations.

• 1:13:34Speaker 05

  Is he mounting it or eating it?

• 1:13:36Speaker 07

  Uh, didn't get those details.

• 1:13:37Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I never get stuffed sucker.

• 1:13:39Speaker 05

  Never see stuffed suckers.

• 1:13:41Speaker 07

  All right. Fifth state record, and this is the biggest one, is for blue catfish.

• 1:13:46Steven Rinella?

  There you go.

• 1:13:46Speaker 07

  It was set on May 9th by Michael Ramey of Poca. Oh my god. Uh, it weighed 71 pounds and made, measured 50 inches long.

• 1:13:56Steven Rinella?

  Man.

• 1:13:57Speaker 07

  Michael was on the Ohio River in Jackson County. He was using cut bait on 100-pound tests.

• 1:14:02Steven Rinella?

  Cool.

• 1:14:02Speaker 07

  He was targeting giant catfish that day.

• 1:14:05Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:05Speaker 07

  Uh, it beat the old record by one and a half pounds, but it was an inch short of the length record. So this fish just holds the weight record. Uh, length record was set in 2025 and the weight record in 2023. So both of those were modern records that he was competing for. Uh, Michael was fishing in a catfish tournament that day. It was a five-fish limit. And this was the only fish that Michael's boat caught and it gave them second place. Uh, so that one singular fish got them second place in a five-fish tournament.

• 1:14:35Steven Rinella?

  Trout dude, I mean, he's, he's throwing in 100, you know, he's, he's targeting big boys and that's it.

• 1:14:40Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14:40Steven Rinella?

  He's not dropping crawlers off the back of that boat.

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  Florida just certified a new record, uh, blue catfish too, like a week or two ago.

• 1:14:48Steven Rinella?

  Man, that is, that is a, that is a.

• 1:14:51Speaker 05

  20 pounds.

• 1:14:52Speaker 04

  Good time to be a catfish man.

• 1:14:54Speaker 05

  Heavier than in, than the inches it is long. It's crazy.

• 1:14:58Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 1:14:59Speaker 07

  That's true. Uh, this blue cat was caught on May 9th. It's the second heaviest fish ever caught in West Virginia. Uh, second only to the state record grass carp, which was caught in 2005. Uh, that weighed 71 pounds, uh, 71.69 pounds. Uh, so just half a pound bigger than West Virginia's new record blue cat. Uh, Michael's fish was released, so it's still out there somewhere in the Ohio River. Uh, now, why, why West Virginia is like suddenly producing all these records? The DNR had some statements, uh, about, you know, what these factors are. One is they say the state's water quality is the best it's been in decades, thanks to actions by the West Virginia Department of Environmental Protection. Technology also playing a role, like Seth talked about last week with Billfish.

• 1:15:44Speaker 07

  It's never been easier to locate big fish with sonar. And then finally, and this is probably the biggest one of them, it's that this fish stocking programs.

• 1:15:53Steven Rinella?

  None of those fish were.

• 1:15:54Speaker 03

  None of those fish were located with electronics.

• 1:15:56Speaker 07

  This one was.

• 1:15:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:57Speaker 03

  He found out with electronics?

• 1:15:58Speaker 07

  So the best example of all three of these, the water quality, technology, and stocking programs is the blue catfish. The Ohio River is significantly cleaner now than it was 50 years ago. The species was reintroduced to portions of the Ohio River in the mid 2000s. So this onslaught of blue cat records in West Virginia is because the stocked fish are now reaching like record book sizes. And also, this catfish was found with sonar.

• 1:16:25Steven Rinella?

  No. How do you know that?

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  What kind of sonar?

• 1:16:27Speaker 07

  Because it said that in the outdoor life.

• 1:16:29Steven Rinella?

  Just like down scan?

• 1:16:30Speaker 07

  It didn't give specifics, but it said that they were going by this zone and marked this spot, and then fish for this fish.

• 1:16:37Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 1:16:38Speaker 07

  So, technology, clean water.

• 1:16:40Steven Rinella?

  That's almost more impressive than shitlucking into it.

• 1:16:42Speaker 07

  Hatry.

• 1:16:42Steven Rinella?

  Weirdly.

• 1:16:44Speaker 03

  What, finding them on?

• 1:16:45Steven Rinella?

  Like, yeah, that you'd find a big, that you'd find a big record cat and then target it. I think, I hear that, and I'm like, that demonstrates angling prowess in a way to me personally.

• 1:16:59Speaker 05

  It does.

• 1:16:59Steven Rinella?

  That him shitlucking into it would not.

• 1:17:01Speaker 05

  But it also is kind of like having a live update on a trail camera and going out there and.

• 1:17:07Steven Rinella?

  But he let it go anyway.

• 1:17:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:09Steven Rinella?

  Catch that sucker next year with the big red horse in his gut.

• 1:17:11Speaker 05

  Hundred pounder.

• 1:17:12Speaker 03

  It's like, it's like finding a record whitetail and then targeting it. You'd be impressed.

• 1:17:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. That's a hell of a fish, man.

• 1:17:21Speaker 07

  Five new records.

• 1:17:22Speaker 05

  You worked your way up to the good ones.

• 1:17:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he did. He put them in order. He put them in order.

• 1:17:27Speaker 07

  This guy, he's also, he's a paid actor as well for a dude who would catch a hundred.

• 1:17:31Steven Rinella?

  Catch a big, huge cat.

• 1:17:32Speaker 03

  That guy looks like a blast.

• 1:17:34Speaker 07

  The, the guy who's trying to do the Oregon anti-hunting legislation, he's a paid actor. He looks just like a vegan activist. Matt and Aaron, he, he's a paid actor. He looks just like a really cool anthropologist.

• 1:17:46Steven Rinella?

  This dude looks like Bill Burr if Bill Burr ate that catfish.

• 1:17:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 07

  That's good.

• 1:17:55Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, all those fish are filled with PFAS chemicals.

• 1:17:59Steven Rinella?

  Real buzzkill. Real buzzkill, Seth.

• 1:18:04Speaker 03

  A recent study released by the Montana Department of Environmental Quality shows high levels of PFAS chemicals in fish flesh across the state of Montana.

• 1:18:14Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  Um, so some of you might not know what, you know, a lot of people know what PFAS chemicals are, but some of you might not know if you're living under a rock these days.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  PFAS are a large group of man-made forever chemicals used since the 1940s to make products resistant to heat, water, grease, and stains. PFAS are often referred to as forever chemicals because they do not readily break down in the environment or the human body. They have been widely used in non-stick cookware, stain-resistant fabrics,

• 1:18:57Speaker 03

  firefighting foams, and numerous industrial products. Researchers say PFAS exposure has been linked to health issues such as several different types of cancers like kidney and testicular cancer, immune system dysfunction, developmental effects in children, and a ton of other health problems. So the study,

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  the, so the Department of Environmental Quality in Montana,

• 1:19:31Speaker 03

  they looked at several different bodies of water across Montana, 13 different ones. In fact, the study found that fish tissue samples collected in 2023 contained significant concentrations of PFAS chemicals. At least one type of PFAS was presented, was present in 78% of samples submitted.

• 1:19:56Steven Rinella?

  God, man.

• 1:19:57Speaker 03

  Um, of 40 PFAS chemicals, the lab tested for the type of, or the type that appeared most frequently was, uh, bear with me here, perfluoro. Cause.

• 1:20:15Steven Rinella?

  Perfluoro.

• 1:20:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Speaker 06

  FOS.

• 1:20:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, commonly found, uh, where am I here? Yeah, so that, that chemical is commonly found in the firefighting foam. Used at airports and military bases, which is interesting because what? They dump a lot of fire retardant around these parts. During the summer.

• 1:20:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, because these are fish out of the Yellowstone.

• 1:20:43Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:20:44Steven Rinella?

  Which is an undammed river and doesn't flow through any kind of industrial landscape.

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:20:49Steven Rinella?

  It's just, it's like purely like atmospheric contamination.

• 1:20:52Speaker 03

  Um, so in late 2024, scientists at the.

• 1:20:56Steven Rinella?

  Oh, no, no, because I guess if you, if Pennsylvania caught them below billings or not.

• 1:20:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, we'll get to that here.

• 1:21:01Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  Uh, in 2024, science, um, at Montana DQ had completed their analysis. And drafted fish consumption advisory warnings.

• 1:21:15Speaker 03

  For residents to limit or avoid eating fish from several popular waterways, however, for some weird reason. Um, those advisories didn't make it to the public until recently in 2026.

• 1:21:27Speaker 05

  That's completely separate from like existing consumption advisors that you can find on FWP's website for any body of water.

• 1:21:36Speaker 03

  Let's get into the details here. An acceptable PFAS level in drinking water is four parts per trillion. Okay, that's what's acceptable for drinking water.

• 1:21:46Steven Rinella?

  Four parts per trillion.

• 1:21:47Speaker 03

  Now, Phil, go back to number one there. Sure.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  So this is, this is, I'm looking, this is a chart for Fort Peck. If you look all the way to the right.

• 1:21:56Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:21:56Speaker 03

  Um, what, what then, so like, for example, the Northern Pike for 26 to 30 inches that they, they tested, they found. 3.5, that, that boils down to 3,500 parts per trillion.

• 1:22:10Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 1:22:12Speaker 05

  Thousand times.

• 1:22:13Speaker 06

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:22:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Speaker 05

  Thousand times the acceptable.

• 1:22:15Speaker 03

  If you look at a walleye, 22, 26 inches. 5,400 parts per trillion. So if you eat one walleye that size out of Fort Peck.

• 1:22:25Speaker 05

  You're eating a lot of them that size out of Fort Peck.

• 1:22:30Speaker 04

  Number two.

• 1:22:31Steven Rinella?

  I thought I was already dead from the lead.

• 1:22:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:22:33Speaker 03

  You think that's crazy? Look at this one. East Gallatin River.

• 1:22:37Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 1:22:37Speaker 03

  A ten to fourteen inch ra- rainbow trout.

• 1:22:40Speaker 06

  Holy.

• 1:22:41Speaker 03

  Eighteen thousand one hundred parts per trillion.

• 1:22:44Steven Rinella?

  Wow.

• 1:22:44Speaker 04

  But that's fluorotelomere kerbocilic acid.

• 1:22:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's still bad.

• 1:22:49Speaker 06

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:22:50Steven Rinella?

  My goodness.

• 1:22:54Speaker 06

  Holy.

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  Go to the next one, Phil.

• 1:22:56Steven Rinella?

  I'm just looking forward to all humans being gone and then millions of years go by and the planet's cool again, man.

• 1:23:02Speaker 03

  This is the, this is the.

• 1:23:03Steven Rinella?

  Well, these forever chemicals, that's the whole problem though. They'll still be there.

• 1:23:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:23:07Steven Rinella?

  Like dinosaurs running back around again and it'll be like, they'll be all contaminated.

• 1:23:11Speaker 06

  No, it'll be the bots.

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  Um, so as you can see with these numbers, it's like off the charts.

• 1:23:17Speaker 06

  That's insane.

• 1:23:18Speaker 07

  Um. I imagine this isn't exclusive to Montana.

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:23:20Speaker 07

  Montana's dealing with it.

• 1:23:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'll get to that, but you're, you're correct. Um.

• 1:23:26Steven Rinella?

  It was the inciting incident.

• 1:23:28Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 1:23:28Steven Rinella?

  To the story.

• 1:23:29Speaker 03

  D DQ scientists recommend stringent interim fish consumption advisories based on updated guidance from the, um, the US Environmental Protec- Protection Agency. The proposed advisories included avoid recommendations for several, um, fish species.

• 1:23:47Steven Rinella?

  For most of it.

• 1:23:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:50Speaker 06

  Oh, that, yeah, that's like just don't eat any of these fish.

• 1:23:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, the most severe recommendations involve Fort Peck reservoir.

• 1:23:59Steven Rinella?

  So depending on the waterway, just for listeners, we got like, um, I'm looking at avoids. Avoids on Northeast, avoids on Wally Dogs. Avoids on blue suckers.

• 1:24:11Speaker 03

  These are.

• 1:24:11Steven Rinella?

  Avoids on Browns. Avoids on mountain whities.

• 1:24:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and these are for different bodies of water.

• 1:24:17Steven Rinella?

  Avoids on small mouth. I'm just kind of giving it a general.

• 1:24:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:20Steven Rinella?

  There's an avoid on yellow perch.

• 1:24:22Speaker 07

  Channel cats and.

• 1:24:23Speaker 05

  It's interesting that, uh, that Fort Peck has all those avoids and like, cause that's like the downstream terminus of.

• 1:24:30Speaker 03

  Well, if you, if you look at like.

• 1:24:31Speaker 05

  Everything ends up there.

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  If you look at Canyon Ferry, it's not that bad.

• 1:24:34Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  But as you go down the line, it gets worse.

• 1:24:37Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Like that whole vigilante deal. I was telling you this, when you first brought this up to me, I said, ignore it.

• 1:24:47Steven Rinella?

  I'm not stopping. I don't care. If you told me that those fish had hand grenades in them, I'm not stopping eating them.

• 1:24:55Speaker 05

  So you have a different attitude about this than you do CWD?

• 1:24:59Steven Rinella?

  Yes. Yeah, I know this won't be, I know that that won't be what kills me.

• 1:25:06Speaker 03

  I know that CWD won't be the thing that kills you either.

• 1:25:09Steven Rinella?

  No, no, I'll die of a heart attack later.

• 1:25:12Speaker 05

  That was caused by PFAS.

• 1:25:14Steven Rinella?

  Tree branch. Tree branch will fall on you.

• 1:25:17Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, the, the risks of PFAS chemicals are still very abstract compared to CWD.

• 1:25:20Speaker 05

  I'm sure Seth's got more, but like this stuff is like, there's been game agencies around the country that are saying like, don't eat ducks from this area. Don't eat deer.

• 1:25:30Steven Rinella?

  Listen, I'm not saying they're wrong. Don't eat, you know what? I hope no one eats it. I don't care. I'm saying me personally, I'm not gonna stop eating fish because of this, because there's like a quality of life issue.

• 1:25:41Speaker 05

  I'm not.

• 1:25:42Steven Rinella?

  We're all gonna end up looking like that guy, the guy from earlier, the Moby dude.

• 1:25:45Speaker 05

  Sickly and pale and.

• 1:25:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Speaker 05

  Eating potatoes.

• 1:25:49Speaker 04

  If, if I end up looking like that guy, people are gonna come to me and say, man, you've really done some lifestyle changes that you look great.

• 1:25:58Steven Rinella?

  You look like you could use a channel catfish or something.

• 1:26:02Speaker 05

  Um, alright.

• 1:26:03Steven Rinella?

  Discover discipline.

• 1:26:04Speaker 03

  So Montana's final recommendations are significantly less restrictive. Steve, you'd like to hear this?

• 1:26:09Steven Rinella?

  Oh, good.

• 1:26:10Speaker 03

  Um, the nose proposed by DEQ.

• 1:26:12Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  Uh, go to.

• 1:26:15Steven Rinella?

  I just can't stop frying fish.

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  This is, this is just a snapshot of, um, Montana's current recommendations.

• 1:26:22Speaker 05

  And it's easy to understand.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  Um, well, there's, there's a key here. Yeah, there's a key here. You have to look. Um, but anyway, like the, obviously that circles with the X's are the, the do not consume.

• 1:26:35Steven Rinella?

  Give me an example of what they're saying don't eat.

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  Um, alright, so let's, for Fort Peck, they're saying a walleye for women and children, that's 22 to 26 inches. Women and children shouldn't eat that.

• 1:26:51Steven Rinella?

  Huh. What does the two mean for like a 26 to 30?

• 1:26:54Speaker 05

  I think that's.

• 1:26:55Speaker 03

  That's per month. Yeah, meals per month. Yeah.

• 1:27:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, don't send.

• 1:27:02Speaker 03

  And then the, the little fish, the fish icon is a safety.

• 1:27:06Steven Rinella?

  God.

• 1:27:07Speaker 04

  I mean, generally, it's like, the bigger the fish, the less you eat of them. Same like.

• 1:27:14Steven Rinella?

  The takeaway is, is that, that, that, that, that, the takeaway is that we're, we're ruining the planet.

• 1:27:21Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:27:21Speaker 06

  Yep, there's plastic in everything.

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, Montana is not alone when it comes to PFAS chemicals.

• 1:27:27Steven Rinella?

  Not ruining it, but degrading it significantly.

• 1:27:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, this is a nationwide issue.

• 1:27:34Steven Rinella?

  Um, we're not even in the hot zone.

• 1:27:35Speaker 03

  Research indicates, yeah, this is, um.

• 1:27:39Speaker 05

  Well, the Great Lakes are bad.

• 1:27:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Steven Rinella?

  Lower.

• 1:27:41Speaker 03

  Yes, EPA has found PFAS in freshwater fish on these, these dots.

• 1:27:45Speaker 06

  Three M.

• 1:27:46Steven Rinella?

  Oh, is it wild that in Nevada, they found no PFAS in freshwater, because they found no freshwater? In Nevada, no, I'm joking. In Nevada, Nevada's the only state I'm looking at that doesn't have a PFAS dot on it.

• 1:28:00Speaker 04

  You gotta wonder if that's, because they haven't tested for it.

• 1:28:03Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:03Speaker 03

  There's even, there's even. There's even stuff in Alaska.

• 1:28:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that, but then just for people not, they're listening and not looking, there's just like dots, kind of parts per billion in composite samples and real, you know, most of the country is very sporadic. The Mississippi's got Boku dots and the Great Lakes all the way out, the St. Lawrence Seaway has Boku dots.

• 1:28:31Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:28:32Speaker 04

  I mean, the other, the other part of this story too, is that the Montana research was all done, that report was finalized three years ago. And.

• 1:28:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  They just released it to the public.

• 1:28:44Speaker 06

  Yep. Big kind of.

• 1:28:46Steven Rinella?

  Well, they also just had, you know, like PFAS stuff, because California banned it, so all companies are moving away from PFAS, because, because everybody's just moving away from PFAS. So waterproofing on jackets is going to go downhill and hopefully fish quality will go up, but they're forever chemicals, so they're never going to go away.

• 1:29:01Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:01Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:02Steven Rinella?

  They've got to keep eating them fish. That's not my recommendation.

• 1:29:04Speaker 06

  But pay, pay attention to what you cook in. If you have a nonstick pan that's coated, you're just.

• 1:29:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, Teflon's a big one.

• 1:29:11Speaker 06

  Licking PFAS up.

• 1:29:13Speaker 04

  I think that hot grease just fries it right out of those.

• 1:29:16Steven Rinella?

  Fries.

• 1:29:17Speaker 05

  That's just science.

• 1:29:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, tell, yeah, tell, that'd be like that guy that, remember that, remember that legislator that said about CWD? He's like, just cook it to done.

• 1:29:26Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:29:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, and someone's like, you have to cook it to.

• 1:29:28Speaker 05

  Nine hundred degrees.

• 1:29:29Speaker 04

  Gun temperature.

• 1:29:30Steven Rinella?

  No, it was like, like one thousand three hundred degrees or something like that, it's a damage.

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  One thing I read when doing this research on this is the, that data centers are, the water cycling through data centers is releasing a shitload of PFAS chemicals.

• 1:29:45Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 1:29:46Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Yep.

• 1:29:48Speaker 04

  I had a lot of, I had a lot of people reach out to me about data centers.

• 1:29:52Steven Rinella?

  Cause they love them?

• 1:29:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:29:53Speaker 04

  No, people that are.

• 1:29:55Speaker 06

  Are building them.

• 1:29:56Speaker 04

  Building them, working them, things of that nature.

• 1:29:58Speaker 06

  We got a ton of emails, thank you everybody, I gotta go through them.

• 1:30:01Steven Rinella?

  I got a good, uh, I got a good, I, I got a good guest I'm flirting with on that subject matter. Not flirt, that's a terrible word.

• 1:30:10Speaker 04

  No, it's.

• 1:30:11Steven Rinella?

  Chatting, chatting, a journalist, she's doing a book on the whole subject.

• 1:30:15Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:30:17Steven Rinella?

  Um.

• 1:30:20Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:30:21Speaker 06

  You're up.

• 1:30:22Steven Rinella?

  Are you done? That was a great segment.

• 1:30:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's it.

• 1:30:24Steven Rinella?

  Are you gonna curtail your fish eating?

• 1:30:26Speaker 04

  That's what I was gonna ask.

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  I have, I haven't honestly eaten a lot of fish in Montana in the last, ever since I got mercury poisoning.

• 1:30:33Speaker 03

  Lot of these fish are, lot of, like that study showed, a lot of that stuff's real high mercury as well.

• 1:30:39Steven Rinella?

  You're not eating the fish because of the mercury?

• 1:30:41Speaker 03

  I just eat all the, I, all my fish consumption's just Alaska stuff, for the most part.

• 1:30:47Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 1:30:48Speaker 04

  Didn't you also poison yourself with Alaska fish at some point?

• 1:30:51Speaker 03

  No, it was.

• 1:30:51Steven Rinella?

  Hawaii fish.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  That was Hawaii fish, Gulf, Gulf fish.

• 1:30:58Steven Rinella?

  You know, you know how people got a, they'll put a map up and put a thumbtack everywhere they've been?

• 1:31:02Speaker 04

  That's exactly.

• 1:31:02Steven Rinella?

  Seth's gonna do a thumbtack everywhere he's been poisoned by fish.

• 1:31:05Speaker 04

  You know what DEQ should do, they should be saying, not, don't worry about the fish, they should be sampling the anglers.

• 1:31:12Speaker 05

  For PFAS.

• 1:31:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Steven Rinella?

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• 1:31:58Steven Rinella?

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• 1:32:40Steven Rinella?

  OnX Hunt's Whitetail Insights tells you what phase of the rut you're in and what tactics actually work for that phase, while the Deer Movement Forecast tells you when deer are most likely to be on their feet. Together, they tell you when to be in the tree and when to go to your kid's game instead. Get the most out of every sit with OnX Hunt. If you spend a lot of time outdoors, you got dogs, you got kids, you know how hard it is to keep the floor of your rig clean. A thing we do in our, in our little fleet of vehicles that have in my household, if you go look, open the door on any one of them, they all got WeatherTech. We get a car, we throw the mats out and put in WeatherTech. That way, when there's a mess, it's like your kid's fault, your dog's fault, it's the weather's

• 1:33:24Steven Rinella?

  fault, doesn't matter. You take them suckers out and hose them off and you're back to being good as new. I'm telling you, if you got a vehicle, put WeatherTech in there, you're gonna be happy you did it. And check this out, American-made floor liners and cargo liners, okay? They laugh in the face of all weather. Go take a look for yourself today at weathertech.com. I always tell my favorite story about my dad's buddy that I grew up with, one of my fishing mentors, Ron Spring, because he had eaten so much Great Lakes fish his whole life. He was a commercial bait fisherman. So for a living, he caught bait and then lived off fish. My dad fished them all the time. They used, he used to go for these routine

• 1:34:06Steven Rinella?

  cognitive tests to test him for all of his exposure to Great Lakes fish. And the punchline to the joke, and I always tell this punchline, the punchline to the joke is he was telling me about, he would go to MSU in Lansing, Michigan periodically. I can't remember if it was every six months or every year. And they would give him a list of stuff to remember. He was telling me, he'd go, he'd say, they're like, Ron, you need to go to the store and get milk, eggs, Mountain Dew, right? Whatever. Tell him a bunch of things he's supposed to get at the store. Then he said they'd wait a minute and he'd go, what are you supposed to get at the store? And I remember he said to me, Steve, I wouldn't have remembered

• 1:34:50Steven Rinella?

  that list if I never ate a piece of fish in my whole life.

• 1:34:56Steven Rinella?

  And, you know, so they were looking into this back then. Yep. Yep. He looked to be a very old man.

• 1:35:05Steven Rinella?

  There you go. I sold him a huge snapping turtle one time.

• 1:35:11Steven Rinella?

  And he knew this other dude. Back in your days of illegal stuff? Well, no, no, because, no, because you could get a commercial. Oh, there was commercial. You could commercial turtle back then. Yep.

• 1:35:28Steven Rinella?

  I later went to profile him.

• 1:35:32Steven Rinella?

  He was, he was old. He was an old man and I was communicating with him and that because I wanted to profile him. I wanted to go out and spend time with him. I was pitching it when I was, this is what I was writing for outside magazine. And I was like, I want to do a profile of like a bait fisherman. So he like collects, he would go out himself and collect leeches, wigglers, crawlers, shiners, succor minnows, like he would be the guy that sold all the live bait.

• 1:35:58Speaker 04

  Honest work.

• 1:35:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. A buddy has even started a live bait vending thing that didn't take off. A vending machine to buy live bait.

• 1:36:05Speaker 05

  Did he sell himself or sell to bait shops?

• 1:36:08Steven Rinella?

  He had Springs Outdoors. So he had Springs, sorry, Springs Sporting Goods. But even after Springs Sporting Goods ended, he still supplied bait. That was just his, his business his whole life. Leeches, wigglers, everything. Um, and I wanted to profile him in his eighties. I think he was in his late seventies or eighties. Cause I'm like, at this point, you know? And he said, I have spent my life developing my methods.

• 1:36:38Steven Rinella?

  I view it as proprietary and I don't want to show anybody.

• 1:36:42Speaker 03

  Dang.

• 1:36:43Steven Rinella?

  Went to the grave with it. What's that?

• 1:36:44Speaker 05

  He wasn't worried about a legacy.

• 1:36:48Speaker 04

  He didn't want anybody to put him out of business in his.

• 1:36:50Steven Rinella?

  I, I've been, I was at his place and he had women that would tie. He had women that would do piece work tying spawn sacks. Where you take that mesh that you use at weddings to put mince and peanuts in.

• 1:37:01Speaker 05

  That's what they caught that golden, beautiful golden trout on.

• 1:37:05Steven Rinella?

  On the spawn.

• 1:37:05Speaker 05

  That's what Spencer said.

• 1:37:06Steven Rinella?

  You put like three, three salmon eggs, like three Chinook eggs, a couple little foam balls. So it's buoyant. And, and tie it off. He would have women doing piece work tying spawn sacks. And then he put those in those little plastic tubs. They sell flies in nowadays when you buy flies. And you could go and buy like six spawn sacks tied by.

• 1:37:28Speaker 04

  Ron Spring.

• 1:37:29Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:37:30Steven Rinella?

  I, just the last story, last story about Ron Spring. When I was a little kid, this is terrible. I was fishing with my old man. I was a little kid and we found on the ice, a big northern pike, someone had just left laying outside the hole. Just fro- you know a fish looks when it's been laying there frozen stiff. It was frozen stiff. My dad picks it up and throws it to me, because it's frozen rock solid. He throws it to me and I catch it. He goes, "You caught that pike." Now, I told Ron Spring, I was probably like five or six. I told Ron Spring I caught a 28 inch pike.

• 1:38:08Speaker 05

  You felt bad.

• 1:38:09Steven Rinella?

  Felt so bad I called him back and told him I lied.

• 1:38:12Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:38:13Steven Rinella?

  I felt so crooked.

• 1:38:16Speaker 03

  He's an honest man.

• 1:38:17Steven Rinella?

  Um, Patagonia suing a drag queen named Patty Gonia.

• 1:38:24Steven Rinella?

  Does this individual go by him or her, you know? Did you read this?

• 1:38:26Speaker 05

  They, I think.

• 1:38:28Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 1:38:28Speaker 05

  I thought I saw that.

• 1:38:30Steven Rinella?

  I was gonna say Patty Gonia. There's a drag- I- I can't believe you could say drag queen and not get in trouble. Doesn't that seem like a thing you wouldn't be able to say anymore? But they use it, drag queen.

• 1:38:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's totally fine.

• 1:38:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but there's some things you-

• 1:38:45Steven Rinella?

  This drag queen is Patty Gonia. Now, according to Patty.

• 1:38:49Speaker 05

  She, her, they, them.

• 1:38:50Speaker 07

  When in drag, when in drag, uh, she goes by she and when not in drag, Win Wiley identifies as a gay man who uses he/him.

• 1:39:00Speaker 05

  There you go.

• 1:39:01Steven Rinella?

  I'm gonna stick to, I'm gonna stick to the in-character.

• 1:39:04Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:39:05Steven Rinella?

  In, in drag, there's a, there's a, there's a drag, there's a climate activist, nature, environmental activist.

• 1:39:16Steven Rinella?

  Right here. Patty Gonia.

• 1:39:20Steven Rinella?

  Patty go- she claims that the whole thing started when she was out hiking and brought some high heels and, uh, you know, the craziest part is the, the, that she has Seth's mustache.

• 1:39:34Steven Rinella?

  Look at this.

• 1:39:38Steven Rinella?

  She was out hiking in high heels.

• 1:39:40Speaker 04

  I should have never cut my hair.

• 1:39:41Steven Rinella?

  For a photograph, not Seth's hair.

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  No, I wish I said I should have never cut my hair.

• 1:39:46Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah. So she was out on a hike. She was out on a hike and took a picture, brought high heels, got to the top of some hill, took a picture of her in high heels. And dubbed and created a persona, a drag queen persona, Patty Gonia. She claims that it was not in reference to the clothing company Patagonia. She claims it was in reference to the Argentinian and Chilean, the region. Which is the southern portions of Argentina, Argentina and Chile. Chilean Patagonia, Argentinian Patagonia, the south tip of South America. I just saw today where Patty Gonia made a video saying that was the inspiration, the region.

• 1:40:32Steven Rinella?

  But she has a, she, she sells clothing under Patty Gonia. So Patagonia or Patogucci, Patagonia. She should just call herself Patty Gucci. And it'd been like a double joke.

• 1:40:49Speaker 04

  Then Gucci would have gone after.

• 1:40:50Steven Rinella?

  Gucci. Yeah.

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  They got the money.

• 1:40:53Speaker 03

  You think that mustache is fake?

• 1:40:55Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:40:55Steven Rinella?

  No, I think it's legit.

• 1:40:59Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, Patagonia's in a real bind here. It's a tr- I, I call this a feel good story because it makes me, it makes me laugh and I call it a heartwarming story because it warms my heart. I just think it's very funny. I've been enjoying this story for two days since it came out. It puts Patagonia in a real bind. But it hearkens back to, if you remember, the dispute between North.

• 1:41:22Steven Rinella?

  There was a dispute a long time ago between North Face and South Butt. Phil, can you pull up North Face and South Butt? Okay.

• 1:41:29Speaker 04

  Oh, not familiar.

• 1:41:30Steven Rinella?

  So this is 20 years ago. North Face came out, a guy inverted the North Face logo and came out with a clothing line called the South Butt.

• 1:41:41Steven Rinella?

  A kid from Missouri and his dad did this. He was like a student. They come up with South Butt. North Face is like, hey, South Butt, you gotta quit. He says, give me a million bucks and I'll quit. Well, then, South Butt took off and also they say it's not for sale anymore. So then they come to some kind of undisclosed settlement where he'll stop selling South Butt clothes. Signs the settlement and then quickly launches the Butt Face.

• 1:42:10Steven Rinella?

  Do you got that one?

• 1:42:11Speaker 03

  No, I can.

• 1:42:12Steven Rinella?

  Quickly launches the Butt Face as like a, as like a total FU to the North Face. And then he's found in violation of the deal. Then they're like, okay, enough enough. So he's like, okay, I'll quit the South Butt. I'm switching to the Butt Face.

• 1:42:28Speaker 04

  He had to pay 65 grand.

• 1:42:30Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:31Speaker 04

  For Butt Face.

• 1:42:31Steven Rinella?

  And then, yeah, there it is. So then he's like, okay, I'll call it the Butt Face. Cause they had never stopped climbing. So he's like, never stop smiling. The Butt Face, totally funny. He loses and he's done. So here we are now. Patagonia is, is, is going toe to toe with Pat-a Patty Gonia. All right. The first thing I thought when I heard this, um, and I've been around, I've been around this, this issue, the pet, the, the copyright thing. I've been around a fair bit over the years. The first thing I thought was how is it applicable when there is a place called Patagonia? Like, why can't you say, no, I mean,

• 1:43:10Steven Rinella?

  the place. It doesn't work. And if, if you want to think about why that doesn't work, it's like, let's say I start a online, I started a, a website that sells everything you could ever possibly want. And I say, I'm going to call it Am- Amazon. And they're like, well, you can't because there's already one of those called Amazon. I'd be like, well, no, no, I mean the jungle. And like it, it, for all the reasons you can imagine, it doesn't work to do that. All right. What Patagonia is pressing is like that to stop, that they want Patty Gonia to stop selling merch.

• 1:43:43Steven Rinella?

  But there's a lot of fan art. So Patty Gonia will go on and show fan art that uses the, not, not just the name, but the Patagonia logo. And this has been done before. There was a gun company that took like an AR and made it look like the pad with the multicolored iconic mountainscape thing.

• 1:44:03Steven Rinella?

  So Patty is saying, okay, I'll stop using or showing the Patagonia logo. But you gotta lay off on me calling myself Patty Gonia. That's the deal they're trying to strike. Okay. Patty Gonia claims that Patagonia has known about her for eight years. But they're cherry picking this political moment, this particular political moment to make their attack.

• 1:44:39Steven Rinella?

  Okay. The question, when you get into this kind of stuff is, does it cause to a layman, does it cause brand confusion? I watched one lawyer speaking about it. And the lawyer was saying, brand confusion would be, you tell your baby boomer grandma, I want a Patagonia T-shirt. Now, could this hypothetical baby boomer grandma, search that up and wind up accidentally getting a Patty Gonia T-shirt? That would be like you've caused brand confusion. In the comment section,

• 1:45:25Steven Rinella?

  to this lawyer breaking this down, there was one person that said, and I think they're lying. He said, my parents are boomers. They've never heard of the clothing company Patagonia, but they know about Patty Gonia. Come on.

• 1:45:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a stretch.

• 1:45:40Steven Rinella?

  Another person said, another person said, I am a boomer. And I can tell the difference between a clothing brand and a drag queen.

• 1:45:50Steven Rinella?

  So you have conflicting things about boomers. We should have brought one in.

• 1:45:55Steven Rinella?

  And said, how confused are you by all this? A interesting little wrinkle here about trademark use. And this is the part that I've had a lot of exposure to.

• 1:46:05Steven Rinella?

  When you trademark something, you're trademarking the use of the name for a purpose. And I thought, I was trying to think this morning of an example, and I thought of an example. But first I'll say that for 33 years, Patagonia has held, they have, they held, have held for 33 years, that they have exclusive on selling clothes under Patagonia. Let's say there's a prominent, you know, like down on the Madison River, there's Blacks Ford. Okay, there's a well-known Ford from historic times, like that was a reliable, good, safe place to cross the Madison. Blacks Ford, that's where you would cross. Let's say I open a restaurant at Blacks Ford and I call it The Ford. Okay, and I'm saying, I'm opening a restaurant at the Ford called The Ford.

• 1:46:48Steven Rinella?

  Ford Motor Company, that's not their, probably, I'm using example, but probably not their business, because I'm opening a restaurant called The Ford at The Ford. But let's say I later go, man, I've developed a truck, which is great for crossing the Ford.

• 1:47:06Steven Rinella?

  Okay, I'm gonna call it The Ford. All of a sudden, now you are in, Ford is coming after you now, because now you're causing brand confusion. Your truck, The Ford, which you claim has nothing to do with Ford, it has to do with the Ford at the river. A judge is gonna be like, no, no, no, no, no. You're creating brand confusion about Ford as a motor vehicle.

• 1:47:31Speaker 04

  If you're, if you're a person who can create a successful restaurant venture in and around Bozeman, and you can invent a motor vehicle, you'll be just fine without that name.

• 1:47:42Steven Rinella?

  Yes.

• 1:47:43Speaker 04

  You're an impressive enough. Bridger, something.

• 1:47:44Steven Rinella?

  Impressive, impressive person.

• 1:47:46Speaker 04

  Bridger Motors.

• 1:47:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, so you go and get, so if you're establishing a brand, if you're establishing a brand, you don't know where the brand is going. That's why it's always a good idea to not use a word that's blocked up. Like, let's say you're looking at a brand name and it happens to be, there's a kayak company with that name. And you're like, well, I want to call my restaurant that. But then you realize that they have. Secured apparel, they've secured a multitude of water sports. And you're later like, well, it's gonna be a restaurant. Well, what if you decide you're gonna sell hoodies? Like, you always gotta be careful. You're gonna be, I'm gonna sell my favorite knife. Well, there's already a knife company using that name. So you always gotta be careful about like where all it's been used.

• 1:48:29Steven Rinella?

  And Patagonia situation, this puts them, because their audience, Patagonia's audience is bifurcated. Finance dudes like those vests a lot. And they like those black fleeces a lot. There's a, there's a understandable story about why finance guys love Patagonia.

• 1:48:49Steven Rinella?

  Because there used to be some very exclusive event and they'd give out like a, like a vest. But if you didn't get invited to the vest, to the event, you just go get it anyways, because then it looked like you'd been to the event. And now it just is that they wear Patagonia vests.

• 1:49:02Speaker 07

  They don't know why they're wearing them.

• 1:49:04Steven Rinella?

  No, but there's a history to it that you can understand. And it's bifurcated too, so they have this kind of like right-ish, right-leaning thing. Like, how many investors have you ever met with a Patagonia jacket? They all have one. And then there's like a left-leaning element. Like a real, like Ann Arbor, Madison, Patagonia type that are diametrically opposed.

• 1:49:27Speaker 05

  Hiker, biker.

• 1:49:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:28Speaker 05

  Fly fisher.

• 1:49:29Steven Rinella?

  So here Patagonia is kind of like in this position of going after what would almost be sort of like a symbolic height of the left-leaning aspect of tolerance and things that would come from their community.

• 1:49:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, and Patagonia's ethos is not right-wing finance guys. Patagonia's kind of ethos is...

• 1:49:52Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they take that money.

• 1:49:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54Steven Rinella?

  They take that money and use it for environmental causes that would ultimately be at odds with the people make, giving them all the money by buying all the vests. This is very unscientific. It's just like observational.

• 1:50:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, if there was like a woke business spectrum that ranged from like Trump Mobile to Starbucks. Like, Patagonia is in the Starbucks category.

• 1:50:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, they're beyond that.

• 1:50:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, very far.

• 1:50:16Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, because Starbucks is always duking it out with unions. Now, they've kind of lost their like leftiness.

• 1:50:20Speaker 07

  Point is, they're like, on, on this spectrum, they're very far left.

• 1:50:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, way woke. That's a good way of putting it. Way woke, and now they're attacking like the fringe woke side of woke. But here's why they're in a pickle. If you don't enforce your copyright, it counts against you in future copyright infringement things. Part of having a copyright is it is enforced. Because if if someone goes, if I say, I'm gonna name some, I'm gonna come up and say, I'm gonna name an aftershave, and I'm calling it Burma shave. Well, in the 20s, there was Burma shave. It's not around anymore. So if Burma shave has gone lax and has not enforced Burma shave for 100 years,

• 1:51:02Speaker 04

  right? Is that with an E or a U?

• 1:51:04Steven Rinella?

  B U R M A dash shave. And they became famous because they would put these sequential billboards up that would have a message, a rhyming message. So I was reminded of this recently because the tourism board in Arizona is putting out Burma shave posters, even though the product isn't around anymore, just like a nostalgia thing. Poor example. But what I'm saying is, if Patagonia doesn't go after Patty Gonia, and then an AR company uses it, it's hard for them to go after the AR company because it'd be like, but you don't enforce your trademark. You allow all these other people to do it. But now you're starting to

• 1:51:46Steven Rinella?

  saying you're gonna all of a sudden enforce it with this person. So you have to be diligent. That's why they're in a bind. And now Patty Gonia has made a video saying, stop the suit.

• 1:52:04Steven Rinella?

  She's very articulate. She says, don't take this out on the employees at Patagonia. It's not their problem. Don't be hostile. Be respectful. I'll stop using the logo. But they need to stop the lawsuit about me using Patty Gonia.

• 1:52:25Steven Rinella?

  I don't know where I stand on the whole thing.

• 1:52:27Speaker 07

  Patagonia, Patagonia is suing for $1 plus legal fees. And then the quote is, we wish we didn't have to do this, it says.

• 1:52:36Steven Rinella?

  I wish they'd have to do everything at work.

• 1:52:37Speaker 05

  The company said the settlement will require Patagonia to withdraw all trademark applications, stop using Patagonia's logos, stop selling and promoting apparel and other products as Patagonia.

• 1:52:53Steven Rinella?

  I don't know who I'm rooting for. I think like, I feel like I'm rooting, I feel like I'm rooting for Patty. Who are you rooting for, Spencer?

• 1:53:02Speaker 07

  Uh, I hope, uh, let's go Patty. Yeah.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  Randall? I wish I didn't have to do this.

• 1:53:08Steven Rinella?

  But you have to, here you are. Now, who do you think is right? Who are you rooting for? Not, I don't want, like, don't give me some lawyer BS. Just give me like, like, in your deep down heart of hearts, who you're rooting for?

• 1:53:22Speaker 04

  I...

• 1:53:25Speaker 05

  Come on, Randall.

• 1:53:26Steven Rinella?

  Who are you rooting for?

• 1:53:29Steven Rinella?

  Patty.

• 1:53:31Steven Rinella?

  Corinne?

• 1:53:32Speaker 06

  Patty, but I understand the trademark thing.

• 1:53:34Steven Rinella?

  Dude, I totally understand it. I totally understand. I'm just saying like, who...

• 1:53:38Speaker 06

  It's like for the future, nothing's...

• 1:53:39Steven Rinella?

  I know, but at a point, you've been around so long.

• 1:53:42Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:53:43Steven Rinella?

  That you just become like the cultural, it's like, you're, you're like the cultural fabric and there's gonna be, after you've been around so long and have been like so ubiquitous and like, in such a part of the American dialogue, that someone would be able to not like goof on it a little bit.

• 1:54:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I always stand up for parody, you know?

• 1:54:05Steven Rinella?

  It's like, you're kinda like goofing on it. You're goofing on a thing that's just very ma, like, I don't think this is gonna hurt their business.

• 1:54:12Speaker 05

  That's the thing, it's like, is Patagonia, the company, really gonna like, take a financial hit here?

• 1:54:19Steven Rinella?

  But that's not what it's about.

• 1:54:20Speaker 05

  I know, but I also feel like they've demonstrated they're looking out for their own trademark. You know what I mean?

• 1:54:26Steven Rinella?

  I know they're right. I know they're right, but I'm rooting for the other person.

• 1:54:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, so am I.

• 1:54:32Steven Rinella?

  I wouldn't do anything different if I was in their shoes.

• 1:54:36Speaker 07

  They probably need to punt and just make Patty like a spokesperson at this.

• 1:54:40Steven Rinella?

  Because what they've done, because what they've done now, that's why in my notes I have up top, puts them in a real bind, by which I mean a real pickle.

• 1:54:49Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 1:54:50Steven Rinella?

  And part of the pickle is that this went from being, oh, I went to look and see if I could get some, not that I want some, but just see if I could get Patty going, your merch, guess what? Sold out.

• 1:55:01Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 1:55:02Speaker 07

  Scarcity.

• 1:55:03Steven Rinella?

  It's like one of those deals where careful what you talk about.

• 1:55:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:55:08Steven Rinella?

  Careful what you talk about, because they all of a sudden, I was, I've never heard of this thing. The, the, like, I've, I've never heard of the, the, the brand Patty Gonia or the individual Patty Gonia. And now.

• 1:55:20Speaker 07

  Streisand.

• 1:55:21Steven Rinella?

  The whole world knows about it.

• 1:55:23Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:55:23Steven Rinella?

  So you gotta be a little bit careful of what you yapping about.

• 1:55:26Speaker 04

  And, and my, my understanding was that they had somewhat of a friendly relationship until.

• 1:55:33Steven Rinella?

  I know, but it was like, it was very loosey goosey and this lawyer I was looking at was dismissive. It was something to do with like hydro flask and.

• 1:55:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll admit, I didn't dig into this one as deeply as I would if I were doing a real hard hitting.

• 1:55:46Speaker 07

  Can we get Patty on the show?

• 1:55:47Speaker 04

  Investigate.

• 1:55:48Steven Rinella?

  That'd be great.

• 1:55:49Speaker 07

  Ask Patty some of these questions.

• 1:55:51Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, we should have Patty going to come on the show. She might have to go by a different name while she's here, depending on what was.

• 1:55:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:55:58Steven Rinella?

  We had Avon Chenard on before, we should have Patty Gonia on, like fair and balanced.

• 1:56:04Speaker 03

  Should have them all together, be a debate. I guess he's not involved anymore.

• 1:56:08Speaker 07

  That'd be an ambush, Seth.

• 1:56:10Steven Rinella?

  That'd be an ambush.

• 1:56:12Steven Rinella?

  It'd be an ambush if you didn't tell.

• 1:56:14Speaker 04

  Depends if we're hiding.

• 1:56:16Steven Rinella?

  I wish that it was a long time ago and we could have done our story about North Face and South. But that's just flat out funny.

• 1:56:23Speaker 07

  It's a shame we can't talk about that.

• 1:56:24Steven Rinella?

  That's flat out funny. This is different. The, the thing that impressed me the most is when I went and watched Patty Gonia's video explaining the whole situation, I was impressed by.

• 1:56:37Steven Rinella?

  The clarity and articulation of the issue. I was impressed. I was impressed. As a presenter, I was impressed.

• 1:56:47Speaker 07

  Like, speaking of trademarks, how do, how do we do the Bambi thing without getting in trouble?

• 1:56:52Speaker 04

  Public domain, right?

• 1:56:53Steven Rinella?

  Cause, cause certain things after 75 years ago, public domain.

• 1:56:56Speaker 07

  I didn't know if that, like Mickey Mouse, I feel like came up in public domain.

• 1:56:59Steven Rinella?

  There's a little, there's a roll of the dice.

• 1:57:01Speaker 03

  The Steamboat Willie version of Mickey.

• 1:57:03Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, so when we did our Bambi, we did our Bambi shirt and I think that it had gone public. Sometimes you roll the dice.

• 1:57:13Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:57:14Steven Rinella?

  We did a, we did a Metallica thing that the lawyers warned us against. We did a Guns N' Roses thing the lawyers warned us against. Bambi is, I think Bambi is now public domain. We did an Elmer Fudd, maybe we rolled the dice on that. Maybe we'll get like, get yelled at by Disney. I don't know. Who owns?

• 1:57:33Speaker 04

  Warner Brothers.

• 1:57:35Steven Rinella?

  Seems like he'd be his own man, don't it?

• 1:57:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:57:38Steven Rinella?

  Elmer Fudd, I think I'll never sell out.

• 1:57:41Speaker 04

  He's catching, he's catching tiger trout in West Virginia.

• 1:57:45Steven Rinella?

  He's like, you'll never buy me, you waskly people. Um, anyhow, all right. Thanks for joining the news show. Listen, if you like the news show, where is this little thing? My call to action?

• 1:58:01Speaker 03

  Subscribe to the YouTube channel.

• 1:58:02Steven Rinella?

  Subscribe to the Meat Eater Podcast. Sorry. Oh yeah. Subscribe to the Meat Eater Podcast YouTube channel. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, what have you, just click follow and you'll keep up on all the news. All the important news.

• 1:58:21Speaker 07

  And then give us five stars.

• 1:58:22Steven Rinella?

  Give it five stars. This is the real news, man. Ain't no straight of Hormuz bullshit over here. This is the real straight.

• 1:58:29Speaker 07

  Someone catches a big man-made trout, we're on it.

• 1:58:32Steven Rinella?

  This is where you get the news that matters, man. Not a bunch of fake bullshit news. Thanks for listening.

• 1:59:07Steven Rinella?

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• 1:59:51Steven Rinella?

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• 2:00:36Steven Rinella?

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