Apple Vision Pro Turns One: Spatial Reality Check

This week, Ellis sits down with Andrew and David to discuss everything Apple Vision Pro! It has been almost exactly one year since the Apple Vision Pro was first released, so we thought it'd be a good idea to talk with actual developers about what they like and don't like about building apps for Apple's new device. Enjoy! P. S - Thanks so much to Grégoire Lemoulant and Cihat Gündüz for taking the time to speak with us! Links: Fried Guy Dinosaur experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzTRCul860 Immersive io soccer video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rZjQpD3-3k Gregoire Piano App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/piano-flowing-tiles/id6472594978 Twitter: https://x.com/agathacapp Cihat: Posters App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/posters-discover-movies-home/id6478062053 website: https://www.fline.dev/ Twitter: https://x.com/Jeehut?ref=fline.dev Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jeehut.bsky.social?ref=fline.dev Mastodon: https://iosdev.space/@Jeehut?ref=fline.dev Music provided by Epidemic Sound Shop the merch: https://shop.mkbhd.com Socials: Waveform: https://twitter.com/WVFRM Waveform: https://www.threads.net/@waveformpodcast Marques: https://www.threads.net/@mkbhd Andrew: https://www.threads.net/@andrew_manganelli David Imel: https://www.threads.net/@davidimel Adam: https://www.threads.net/@parmesanpapi17 Ellis: https://twitter.com/EllisRovin TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@waveformpodcast Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/mkbhd Music by 20syl: https://bit.ly/2S53xlC Waveform is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Colin Martin, head of fixed income research and strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:45Speaker 01

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• 1:30Speaker 01

  That's J-I-R-A dot com.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  All this being said, I wanted to ask you guys next. How many people in real life, blood in their veins, human beings? Zero. I know where you're going with this. How many people do you know that spent their money on a Vision Pro? Zero.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  What is up, people of the internet? No, it is not Marquez. It is your typical producer today, host Ellis Rovin. And I'm joined by two lovely co-hosts, Andrew and David. And it is time for another waveform bonus episode. Are you guys ready?

• 2:13Andrew Manganelli?

  I am.

• 2:14David Imel?

  I'm ready to party.

• 2:14Andrew Manganelli?

  The HVAC is also broken in this room right now. So we are wearing jackets. It is very cold, but we will do anything.

• 2:21David Imel?

  I'm so cold.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:22Andrew Manganelli?

  It's a major.

• 2:22David Imel?

  Wait for an episode for you all.

• 2:23Andrew Manganelli?

  It's eight degrees Fahrenheit.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  It is single digits outside. This table, this metal table is so cold. My computer's not plugged in. I think that it might die.

• 2:35David Imel?

  I'm jealous of you people washing the dishes because your hands are probably warm right now.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Yeah. If we had a sink and some dirty dishes in here right now, like.

• 2:42David Imel?

  You're going at it right now.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  I'd be so happy.

• 2:44David Imel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Anywho, guys, today I want to talk about one of my favorite products. Favorite products. Do you want to take a guess at what it is?

• 2:55Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I know what it is already.

• 2:56David Imel?

  We already know what it is.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  You already know what it is.

• 2:58Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, you both already know what it is?

• 2:59David Imel?

  Yeah, because you guys told us what the episode was about.

• 3:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Did we really? Oh, I don't know.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  I don't remember.

• 3:03Andrew Manganelli?

  I kind of know. I helped collaborate a couple.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Well, you know, many of my favorite products like, like Books Palma, Honda Moto Compacto.

• 3:12Andrew Manganelli?

  Correct.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Diet Coke.

• 3:14David Imel?

  Right.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  So this one fits perfectly in line with all three of those.

• 3:17David Imel?

  Uh huh.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Apple Vision Pro.

• 3:19David Imel?

  Right.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Because actually, Apple Vision Pro is not like any of those products at all. It's really expensive, doesn't do a whole lot. And yet, I just think it rules. I just think it really rules. And so, um, for those of you that are not psychopaths like me, uh, you probably didn't know that Apple Vision Pro is going to turn one soon in early February. That will be.

• 3:44Andrew Manganelli?

  Man, it feels like it's been out for.

• 3:45David Imel?

  Longer.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Really?

• 3:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Well, I guess it got announced six months before it came out.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:51Andrew Manganelli?

  And there was some testing. So it's been talked about for over a year, but like it is officially a year old now.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  That's true. And it was teased and rumored for even longer.

• 4:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, for a long time.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Back when it was just like, Apple's working on ski goggles that you can play Beat Saber on? Question mark. But yeah, Apple Vision Pro is a year old and I wanted to talk about it because I feel like it's in this sort of interesting place. It hasn't really been adopted, but some people are full send on it. You have crazy people like me who love this thing and can't really express why.

• 4:25David Imel?

  Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's the most advanced technology I've ever used, even if it doesn't really have much of a purpose.

• 4:31Andrew Manganelli?

  It's one of those things that like blew your mind when you use it and then I put it down and never yearned for it ever again.

• 4:37David Imel?

  Right.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  No, so this is a great way. This is a great segue. I want to hear before we dive in. How much have you guys used Vision Pro? What have been your thoughts? What are your favorite things? What are your least favorite things? Let me know.

• 4:49David Imel?

  So, I mean, the technology in general is just so interesting. Like it's fun to use your eyes to select things. And the fact that you can basically have your hands anywhere as long as the cameras can see them and the tapping gestures, like all that stuff's really great. I love the spatial stuff. I love the pin, the spatial pinning. It's so like, it's so fine and it doesn't like wiggle like a lot of the other VR headsets do. I did use it a little bit more when they updated the Mac virtual display thing that you can have with it. How you can have it in ultra wide mode.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:26David Imel?

  I thought that was cool. I still yearn for like many displays because for some reason I, I like multiple displays more than I like a single long display.

• 5:34Andrew Manganelli?

  Same.

• 5:36David Imel?

  Okay. In that case, it's not some reason. Yeah, but I, you know, it's still a big, heavy thing on your face that makes my iPads, but not the Apple iPad. The face, face red marks on my face.

• 5:51Andrew Manganelli?

  Wait, can I ask a quick question that hopefully won't derail us too much?

• 5:54David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 5:55Andrew Manganelli?

  You actually got to use it at Apple.

• 5:57Speaker 05

  Campus.

• 5:57David Imel?

  I did.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right.

• 5:59Speaker 05

  Compared to the demo that you got versus when we got one in here and you were actually using it, were there any like major differences that struck you?

• 6:05David Imel?

  Not really. I mean, in the demo situations, they do things that try to make your brain go wow. So for example, they did the dinosaur demo in there, which is where like a hole opens up in the wall. And you can see into this Jurassic world and then the T Rex comes out and it's sort of this like crazy sense of scale thing, which gave me the same feeling as the first time I ever tried an HTC Vive. Because I did a demo at a Microsoft store called The Blue, where you're on a pirate ship underwater. That had sank and then there's a whale that like swims over near you and it makes your heart start racing. That was back in like 2015 or something, obviously, but yeah, they, um, not really. I would say,

• 6:48David Imel?

  it's more advanced now, like they had less functionality back then. Uh, and I think especially with the stuff with the personas, like being able to have multiple people in a room, interacting on the same thing is useful. So I'm glad they've updated it, but it's still a little bit far off from where it needs to be.

• 7:05Speaker 05

  Okay, Andrew, what about you?

• 7:06Andrew Manganelli?

  I just think like how easy and natural it was to get in the headset and just do what you wanted to do. Um, VR is like this magical experience and I, I call it one of the things that like non techie people, when you show it to them, they're, it's like the coolest thing they've ever seen. Like we are all in this space and we see stuff like this and maybe we're a little jaded, but like, when I put my mom in a VR headset, she freaked out. When I put like a little cousin in a VR headset, they freak out. So this just took that extra step of being like natural to use, which was awesome. But again, agree with David, it's so heavy and so uncomfortable in long periods of time. I felt like if I were to actually use it day to day, I would have to have like one of those lean back chairs from like,

• 7:50Andrew Manganelli?

  Grandma's Boy or whatever it is where the guy's programming leaned back. I would have to have my head supported all the time.

• 7:55David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  And, and correct me if I'm wrong, Andrew, but you prefer to do things the Aki way. Meaning you prefer Oculus.

• 8:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Oh, the Oculus?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Or it's not called the Oculus anymore.

• 8:06David Imel?

  Quest.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:08Andrew Manganelli?

  I thought it was, uh.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  It's the meta Oculus.

• 8:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I like, the stuff I like the most about VR is playing games. I don't see it as a productivity thing quite yet. And I think that's where most of these are going. So like, I like to play Beat Saber. I like to do virtual reality experiences and that quest focuses.

• 8:25David Imel?

  And Vision Pro games are lacking right now.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:28David Imel?

  I think a lot of that has to do with the fact too, that a lot of the games that are more immersive, you move a lot and you shouldn't be moving a lot with this on your face because it's so heavy.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  That's a neck brace.

• 8:37David Imel?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  It's a one-way ticket to neck brace town.

• 8:41David Imel?

  Also because they are trying to kind of get the hand gestures to be the main interaction point with this device, it's a little difficult for developers to figure out, okay, how do we use our hands instead of a controller? Because most of the like, Quest games and stuff have been used with the controller being like a pointer. So it's, you know, it's difficult. They had like, they came out with Fruit Ninja, which was a throwback, but besides that, there hasn't been a lot of interesting games for it.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  No, and it's funny that you guys brought that up out the rip because we will totally be diving into that. But before we dive into that, sort of the exposition of why we're here today is Adam and I got in touch with two developers who made apps for Apple Vision Pro. One of whom was really into it and really thinks this is like a great platform to develop for, great platform in general. The other actually fully abandoned working on Vision Pro. He was just like, I don't see a path forward in its current state for like being a developer. And it was really interesting to see the things that they agreed on, the things that they disagreed on. Obviously, there's no one answer.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  It's this giant, complicated behemoth of a platform. So we're gonna show some clips from those interviews. We're gonna talk about it. We're gonna get some of your opinions and we're gonna have a lot of fun. But before we dive in, let's introduce.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  The two developers we spoke to, who are not actually here, the way I said that made it sound like they were gonna like, "Bring 'em in, boys!" Like, no, it's not that. The first guy we talked to, um, quick side note, my New Year's resolution for the year was to stop doing that thing that podcasters do a lot where they're like, sorry if I'm not pronouncing this right.

• 10:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Because I, every time I hear a podcaster do that, I'm like, "Boy, you didn't, you didn't want to Google it?" You know what I mean?

• 10:35Andrew Manganelli?

  Or ask them.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  So, I spent a lot of time Googling the pronunciation of this first guy's name, Gregois, he's French. Um, after practicing that in the mirror, a lot, he was like, "You can call me Greg."

• 10:47Andrew Manganelli?

  What up? Hey, you took the effort for it.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Good job. Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear, guys. Um, so Greg is the developer behind one of the most popular Vision OS apps. It's called Piano Flowing Tiles. We've seen a version of this on a lot of different headsets, but this is the one that people say works. I've tried similar apps on Oculus, and I think I tried one on Vive, like, years ago, and it just, it was close, but it didn't actually work.

• 11:14Andrew Manganelli?

  From what I know, it's similar, it's basically like Guitar Hero, but on a real piano.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Bingo. Uh, that is exactly, bingo. Let's go, baby. Yeah, so that, that's kind of the gist of it. Um, and what's really interesting is that it is one of the few actual, like, AR, true AR. You are interacting with reality and it is being augmented by the headset. Um, the other guy we talked to was this really cool dude named Chiha, who is an indie developer, spends most of his time in the iOS world, has also done a few Mac apps. Um, uh, his, I think, I don't know if it's his most popular app, but the one we ended up talking about the most was this thing called posters. And it's just this idea of, you have a space, you want to put stuff on the wall, bada bing bada boom.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Very simple. Or you would think it's very simple, but actually getting it to work turned out to be a little trickier.

• 12:10Andrew Manganelli?

  That's a great idea, by the way. Like, I hadn't thought about it, but if you're gonna be sitting in these virtual spaces, why not be able to flare it up?

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Right. And, and especially because...

• 12:21Speaker 02

  You know, this is gonna sound crazy. My favorite Vision Pro feature, like, obviously, most of the time I use it, I'm doing remote desktop. And I love the environments. And I specifically love that you can scale the environments. You can have full and no and everything in between. And every environment, if you've never used the Vision Pro, has a time of day setting. You can be in Hawaii at day, or you can be in Hawaii at night. And when you scale up with the knob, the digital crown, I don't know what they call it.

• 12:54David Imel?

  Yeah, digital crown.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Digital crown, yeah. When you use the digital crown to sort of scale up the environment, it starts in front of you, and then the more you scale it up, the more it wraps around you.

• 13:01David Imel?

  Immersiveness, yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  But, so if you have it in 50%, it sort of is 180-degree Hawaii. And then, if you turn, I just turned away from the mic, forgetting I'm on a podcast. If you turn away from the mic, or turn away from the front of you, God, I'm so good at this. If you turn, if you turn around.

• 13:20David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  That's what I'm trying to say.

• 13:22David Imel?

  Yep.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  If you turn around.

• 13:24David Imel?

  Turn around.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  You're still, it's your normal world behind you. But if you choose the nighttime option, it changes the light behind you so that it's still your office. It's still, I'm still in the studio, but it's nighttime in the studio. And to me, that is the thing that makes it truly immersive. Like, when I'm at my desk in the studio, noise-canceling headphones on, Vision Pro on, no one can bother me, and I turn around and I see Tim working in the heart of darkness. I'm just like, this is it, this is it, baby. So yeah, the idea of like augmenting these spaces that you're still in while you're using it. Amazing. Shihat also built a lot of dev tools. He runs a really great blog for developers. Very cool guy.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  I really hope we get to do more stuff with him in the future. So I want to kick off this by saying, both of these developers.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Tried Apple Vision Pro for the first time at these things called developer labs in Europe. Are you guys familiar with these?

• 14:23David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Andrew Manganelli?

  Really?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  You wanna?

• 14:26David Imel?

  I believe that basically Apple set up these labs for developers to go and try to like, experience the Vision Pro and kind of like, understand how to build for them early.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. So the gist of it is, you bring a Mac, your, you know, your personal Mac. You bring your code and there will be someone there who is a Vision Pro expert and will help you get your code running.

• 14:51David Imel?

  Right.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  And so a lot of people were bringing iPad apps that they wanted to run on Vision Pro. Because if you don't know, you can run a lot of iPad apps just at the box.

• 15:00David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  And it's fine.

• 15:02David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  It's.

• 15:03David Imel?

  It's fine.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  It's like, it's fine. You know, yeah, it's nothing, nothing to write home about.

• 15:08David Imel?

  Too bad Instagram doesn't have an iPad app.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  So real. And neither of them had had much of a major interest in VR prior to Apple Vision Pro. Greg said that he had tried the Quest, was not impressed, didn't, wasn't interested in it, did not put on another headset until Vision Pro. Jihad had never worn a headset.

• 15:32David Imel?

  Oh.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  And disclaimer, I am not going to differentiate between VR and AR headsets in this episode.

• 15:41David Imel?

  Okay.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Because we're talking about, we're comparing flagship headsets. We're comparing Quest, Vision Pro, Vive. Do not come at me saying, this is an AR headset, this is a VR headset. We're talking about us two screens in front of your eyeballs with some cameras and some motion tracking ability and a whole lot of chips, and it's not worth our time here.

• 16:03David Imel?

  They're also all converging now, anyway.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:06David Imel?

  Like the Quest 3S is like, it upgraded the color pass-through and now it has higher fidelity, higher frame rate. They're all trying to be Vision Pro and Vision Pro is like, how do we shrink?

• 16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 16:17David Imel?

  That's kinda what's trying to happen.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  If I truth, truly upset you by not delineating these things, write to me on Blue Sky. Let's start it. An argument, we can get into it.

• 16:27Speaker 05

  For the world to see.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  So if I, if I call Vision Pro a VR headset and for some reason that is not accurate, sue me.

• 16:35Speaker 05

  It's spatial computing.

• 16:36David Imel?

  Spatial computing.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  God.

• 16:38David Imel?

  Do you even listen to Apple when they talk?

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Does AR stand for Apple Reality? Like, are we, are we, are we there yet?

• 16:43Speaker 05

  Don't give them that idea.

• 16:44David Imel?

  I mean, AI, they're probably gonna do it, you know, Apple Intelligence, Apple Reality.

• 16:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, I could see it.

• 16:49David Imel?

  Anyway, continue.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Yes. Anyway, so I was like, Chiha, that's crazy. You are a tech dude. You write code. You've never worn a VR headset before Vision Pro? Even I had done that. And I, for the long time, longest time was like the most anti VR person in the world. I was like, this is apocalyptic and scary and dumb.

• 17:10Speaker 05

  You still kind of are when you're not wearing it.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  I know. That's so, that is so real. I'm like,

• 17:16David Imel?

  Ellis Gore.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Get these headsets off. And then I put it on, I'm like, I love.

• 17:20David Imel?

  Keep it on my face.

• 17:21Speaker 05

  Don't stick it away.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  I know. And it's funny, everyone else flips too. Everyone else is like, oh my God, I love VR, like, these headsets are so great. And then they come in the office and they see me sitting at my desk with the blue eyes on and they go, this is so weird. I hate this. One time, Marquez just walked by me and I heard him say under his breath, he was like, God, this is the world now.

• 17:41David Imel?

  I mean, I think that that kind of highlights the fact that these headsets are made for just solo interaction, you know? This is, this is the whole thing that people have talked about, especially with the Vision Pro. It's a lonely experience. It's a cool experience, but it's not made to be interacted with, with other people in the real world.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  No, totally. And

• 17:57David Imel?

  Which is the dystopian part about it.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Part of the reason I wear it is because we have a kind of a chaotic studio and I got some work to do.

• 18:03David Imel?

  You gotta zone out.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Zone in. I gotta, what, what is it? What's the thing that was?

• 18:08David Imel?

  Lock in.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  But if you, if you don't lock in, you'll spend the rest of your life clocking in. You like that one? Grind set, bros?

• 18:17Speaker 05

  Cutting this.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  You, no! Anyway.

• 18:20David Imel?

  Sponsored by Severance, season two.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  See, I asked Chiha, I was like, how did this happen? What, why? And he said, kind of exactly what you brought up at the beginning of the episode, Andrew.

• 18:29Speaker 06

  Basically, the reason why I didn't ever wear a headset, like a VR headset before is because I'm not interested in VR gaming. I am a gamer, I would say. I play games from time to time, not a hardcore gamer. But I was never really interested in VR gaming and all other headsets to me were VR like gaming headsets. And this was the first one where I also knew like, okay, this is really focusing on apps and things with UI that are not necessarily games.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  And he did not see any existing headset as anything other than a gaming device. And obviously, you can virtual desktop on the Quest. The Quest actually has some really cool virtual desktop features, my favorite of which being the desk cutout, that you can have lots of peripherals and controllers that are still accessible to you in the Quest. And in the Vision Pro, actually.

• 19:18David Imel?

  Well, the Vision Pro only with the Magic Keyboard and the Magic Mouse.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yes, which is like.

• 19:23David Imel?

  Super messed up.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Super. I mean, not gonna lie, this might be the year of the Magic Keyboard for me. I really love my Magic Keyboard at home.

• 19:32David Imel?

  I like, I like.

• 19:33Andrew Manganelli?

  As long as you don't use the mouse, we're fine.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  I'm a track.

• 19:36David Imel?

  The mouse is where I draw the line.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm a, I'm a trackpad guy.

• 19:39David Imel?

  And it's not even about the fact that it charges from the bottom. It's just a bad mouse.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 19:44David Imel?

  At David and Mel. Yeah, I said it.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  I will say.

• 19:48David Imel?

  Blue Sky me.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  It's gonna be hard to switch at work because Andrew built me just like the Lexus of keyboards. This thing is like.

• 19:55David Imel?

  That's true.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  It's butter.

• 19:56David Imel?

  For us, it's the Lexus. For him, it's like a Honda Civic.

• 19:58Andrew Manganelli?

  No Lexus works. I'm just riding a Ferrari right now.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  I swear to God, you could bake a croissant with how buttery this thing is.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so it made sense, right? Like, like Vision Pro, like we said, is too heavy to play Beat Saber on. Like, it just doesn't work well as a gaming headset. And I thought that was sort of an interesting thing about it. Like, there's this, it really, I had never thought about it this way, but I don't know anyone who owns a Quest that didn't buy it for gaming. Yeah. Actually, I take that back. I know one dude. His name's Tim, and he is a very unique character. Not our Tim? Not our Tim. Because all that applies to our Tim. It is hilarious. My Tim is a graphic designer as well. Interesting.

• 20:43Andrew Manganelli?

  It must be the name.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  It must be.

• 20:45David Imel?

  Yeah, but I would say that most people definitely buy these for gaming. All of the ads that Meta releases around the Quest are primarily gaming-focused ads.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:52Andrew Manganelli?

  As of late, they're trying to push that, but they're definitely trying to go more of the productivity route.

• 20:58David Imel?

  I think they're edging into the productivity zone because they're trying to eat Apple's lunch. They're like, this is $500, and Apple's is $3,500, so.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  But the problem with using Quest, the problem that I had using Quest as a productivity tool, is another thing, or touches on another thing, that both of these developers, Chiat and Greg, agreed on. Which is, the best part about the Vision Pro is how intuitive it is.

• 21:22Speaker 07

  It feels so intuitive. You put your headset on, and you already know how to use it.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Sure, there's maybe like 15 seconds where you're like, whoa, whoa, I have to know where my eyes are pointed. Yeah. And then after that, you're just like in it. Like, the touching feels natural, where you put your hands feels natural, everything just begins to like, click. And that's what makes it such a cool productivity device. Mm-hmm. All this being said, I wanted to ask you guys next. How many people in real life, blood in their veins, human beings?

• 21:57David Imel?

  Zero.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  I know where you're going with this. How many people do you know that spent their money on a Vision Pro?

• 22:05David Imel?

  Zero.

• 22:07Andrew Manganelli?

  I might know one.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  And Marquez doesn't count. Marquez does not count.

• 22:10David Imel?

  That's not true. I do know a couple, yeah.

• 22:12Andrew Manganelli?

  I think I know one person who just buys pretty much everything that's Apple that comes out.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Okay. I want to dive into your answer first, so.

• 22:19David Imel?

  I also know one.

• 22:19Andrew Manganelli?

  I know not much more after that.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  That's perfect. But it's sort of like, this person, every time, like, every time there's a new Apple product.

• 22:26Andrew Manganelli?

  New iPhone every time, new Apple Watch every time.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Okay. And you think that is the biggest reason they bought this thing?

• 22:32Andrew Manganelli?

  Of people I know outside of our tech worlds. But like, there's really only, they only sold so many. There's not that many people outside of our tech worlds. That I, there's like, none that I know personally.

• 22:44David Imel?

  My, my friend Ramses, who I play Dota with, he lives in Egypt.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, that's a fire Egyptian name.

• 22:50David Imel?

  It is.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  And you said he lives in Egypt?

• 22:52David Imel?

  He lives in Egypt.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Nice, alright, swag.

• 22:53David Imel?

  He bought a Vision Pro, one, because he just really likes technology stuff. Uh, and two, because he wanted to play Dota 2 in a virtual environment. Uh, with a giant display, giant virtual display. And he was hounding me because his M1 Max MacBook Pro was like, dropping frames while playing it on the, on the Vision Pro virtual display. So he was like, "Please test the M4 Pro, so I can see if I, if I bought a new laptop, it would work." And he said it does, so.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Really?

• 23:24David Imel?

  Yeah, yeah. He mostly uses it for that, though.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:28David Imel?

  Primarily to play Dota 2 on a massive virtual display.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  That sounds awesome.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  That's kinda sick.

• 23:32David Imel?

  I tried it, it was awesome.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Really?

• 23:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  I really tried to game with the virtual display and I could not get a single game to even open.

• 23:40Andrew Manganelli?

  Really? Dota 2 is like, 15 years old, so.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  That is true.

• 23:43David Imel?

  Also, it runs, yeah, it runs on the, on the Mac. And it's just like, it's like, you're mirroring your Mac in the Vision Pro, is what I'm saying.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  No, no, same, but like, every single time I would try to do it, there would be some, like, graphics error.

• 23:54David Imel?

  Oh, really?

• 23:54Speaker 02

  I'd get like, I'd get the scary window that had this red circle with the exclamation point and it'd be like,

• 23:59David Imel?

  Oh, really?

• 24:00Speaker 02

  "Critical graphics error."

• 24:01David Imel?

  Oh, weird.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  "You're done, bro."

• 24:03David Imel?

  No, but I mean, Valve specifically tries to make all of their games run on every platform seamlessly. And Dota 2 is, like, Mac, it's Mac native, as well as Windows native, as well as Linux native, so.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 24:15David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Interesting, well, you're not alone. Greg and Shihat also do not know.

• 24:21David Imel?

  Many people.

• 24:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Anyone that-

• 24:22Speaker 02

  A single person.

• 24:23David Imel?

  Oh.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Who purchased it, which is- Crazy.

• 24:27David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  And I tried to look up the actual sales numbers. It's Apple, so, which confused me. I thought publicly traded companies had to sort of publish this stuff, but...

• 24:36David Imel?

  They group it into categories, so that's how they do it.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 24:39David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  I found some estimates that in this first year of Vision Pro sales, they sold as low as 220,000 units. I saw some estimates that they sold as high as half a million units. That's not very many. There's not that many people out there with this headset.

• 24:58David Imel?

  I mean, like, what, there is no killer feature. Like, it's a fun party trick. It's a super fun party trick, but for $3,500, you can buy a nice MacBook Pro for that price.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Okay, and Chihat totally agrees with you.

• 25:10Speaker 06

  Firstly priced and everyone who puts it on. Like, I think there's one reason people I know would actually buy it. Because everyone who has seen those, for example, the soccer, the football video with the short one. Everyone who's seen that and who likes to watch football really, really wants to have the device with live sports events. They would buy it immediately if there were live sports, football, their favorite team or something like that, because it's the best experience. You can watch it from your home. It's sometimes, like, some people think it's better than actually being there because you can change the camera perspective, which you can't do when you're sitting there and you just have your one angle.

• 25:50Speaker 06

  And I think that's the reason people could buy it, but currently it's just too expensive and too heavy.

• 25:56Speaker 07

  I think the only pain point is the price.

• 25:59Speaker 06

  Really?

• 26:00Speaker 07

  Yeah. I think it's very, very easy to develop on it. It's very intuitive. So, so I think the only pain point is the price.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  Before I dive into this next point, I wrote this in the script. Do we still say killer app? Do I sound like a boomer when I say killer app? Really? Like, if I say killer app, like, the Silicon Valley bros aren't gonna be like, no one's talking about killer apps anymore.

• 26:22David Imel?

  No, what they say, they say product market fit. You don't have to say that, but... Please don't say that. Killer app is still a valid...

• 26:29Speaker 05

  I think for a new category, it definitely is valid.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Right? It's not, I just figured, because it's such a, like, 2010 thing to say. Like, dude, I think Urban Spoon is the killer app. You know, if you guys remember...

• 26:40David Imel?

  Boy, were they right.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  I loved Urban Spoon, but this is not about it.

• 26:43David Imel?

  Well, it actually specifically applies to this because it needs a singular app that makes it worth buying. But there just isn't a singular app that has been released that's like, I buy Vision Pro for that app. You know what I'm saying? Like Marquez buys MacBooks for Final Cut. He could really care less. I mean, I'm sure he likes the integration with the other Apple stuff he has, but he would be much more open to using a Windows computer if Windows ran Final Cut.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a lot of talk about somebody that's not here right now.

• 27:13David Imel?

  I would agree with me.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 27:17David Imel?

  I know this.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna, not gonna, not gonna speak on Marquez when he's not here, but I don't know, bro. I don't know about that one.

• 27:24Speaker 05

  Andrew, what do you think?

• 27:26Andrew Manganelli?

  If Marquez had used Windows?

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:28Andrew Manganelli?

  He used to.

• 27:29Speaker 05

  But would he switch back if Final Cut was available on Windows?

• 27:31David Imel?

  I'm not saying he would switch back, I'm saying he would be open to using it.

• 27:34Andrew Manganelli?

  I think he'd be, I think he'd be open to using it.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Interesting. Fascinating.

• 27:38David Imel?

  Who knows?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Both Greg and Chihat agree.

• 27:41David Imel?

  That Marquez would be open to using it.

• 27:44Speaker 05

  I knew you were gonna say that.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yes, no. That, that, that this price is such an issue to getting people to adopt. And it, and it creates this vicious cycle, right? High price, low adoption. Low adoption, there's not an incentive for devs to start making stuff for this thing.

• 28:03David Imel?

  Right.

• 28:04Speaker 06

  And of course, content is missing as well. And content isn't arriving because the big players don't want to invest because there are not enough users. And there are not enough users because the big players don't invest. So this is like a chicken and act problem.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  And one thing that Chihat said that really got my thinking gears turning was, he used the, he used that term invest. He said, there are not enough users and these big players are not interested in investing their time and money. Because when you're a big development studio, you, you move, you're like a big ship. You move slowly and expensively. And that's sort of is where indie developers are supposed to come in, right? They can move faster, they can invest faster, they can get these things moving. And yet, we don't see that. And I was super curious why we're not seeing that. And the answer was kind of interesting. Like neither of them said developers are not being supported by Apple.

• 29:02David Imel?

  Totally.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  But it all comes back to this user base cyclical issue.

• 29:09Speaker 06

  I think the main problem is the user base not being big because then you don't have the big motivation to also, like usually you you release an app, you bring out the first version and then you iterate, you improve it, improve it, and you add more features, more ideas. And that's not really something that motivates something on Vision Pro, because there are not so many users and you can't really make a lot of money with it. So most people who are on it really have to just poker. You say like, maybe there will be the the users at some point and then I will have my app ready.

• 29:40David Imel?

  No, I understand that stance from indie developers too, because say you're an indie developer and you're not working for some big studio and you want to like build out your skills, right? The reason a lot of indie developers make apps is because they're just like, oh, this like hones my development skills and it's just a fun project. But why would you make a fun project if nobody's going to use it? You know what I mean? There's also, there's also that like magical moment where you just like make a fun app, in many cases, a task app. And then you just tweet about it randomly and then all of a sudden people on the internet just go, oh, I want to try that out. And by people, you mean me? Adam. And then randomly, they either get really popular or they just, they have this big stage.

• 30:21David Imel?

  But there's nobody to actually use this vision, but and you're spending this time learning how to code for Vision Pro. But it's like, it's not, you don't have faith that they're going to like expand the ecosystem to where people are still going to be using Vision OS in the future.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  And with that high price tag, I don't know if an indie developer like

• 30:40David Imel?

  Wants to buy one?

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Yes, totally. And think about how amazing an experience an indie developer and indie team would have to make to justify a $4,000 piece of hardware for for some app.

• 30:54David Imel?

  They could buy one of those Nvidia AI computer mini PC things for that price.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Dude, you could

• 31:01David Imel?

  Like $3,000.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  You could buy like an entire like, like room in your house full of sick stuff for $4,000. You know what I mean? We got to go cut to a commercial break, but when we get back, we're going to talk about the experience of actually writing code and developing on this thing and what it's been like to, despite the price, despite the low user base, to forge ahead and try and write programs in Vision Pro. But until then. We'll be right back.

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• 33:32Speaker 02

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• 33:36Speaker 02

  Welcome back. We're talking about Vision Pro. We're talking to developers. We're talking code. We're talking $4,000 price tags, all of it. Um, one interesting thing Chi hot said to me.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Is, and I think I mentioned this to you in passing, Andrew, but I asked both Greg and Chi hot. What do you do in Vision Pro when you're not developing for it? Cause you both own one. For development purposes, but you also use it. Um, Greg gave me very normal answer. I like to watch movies in it. It's great for watching movies. Big screen, your house, your couch. Uh, it's kind of hard to drink a beverage without a straw in Vision Pro. As someone who drinks a lot of coffee. Getting a coffee, like feeling the coffee mug clink against the glass is like pretty.

• 34:24Andrew Manganelli?

  I can't imagine the hot steam coming up onto the glasses, not just absolutely. It had the issue where it was like.

• 34:31David Imel?

  On the bottom too.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  I haven't.

• 34:33Andrew Manganelli?

  It was splitting though, too. Remember?

• 34:35David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Well, the one that I, the one in the office has not split.

• 34:39Andrew Manganelli?

  It did. Oh, Brandon's.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Brandon's did, but I, I be clinking. I be clinking that thing. Um, but what do you think Chi hot's favorite thing to do in Vision Pro was? Cause it really surprised me and it is the first time I had heard someone give this answer when I asked him that question.

• 34:53David Imel?

  Do backflips.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Do backflips. That is exactly correct. It's funny like that. The weight of it actually sort of creates this center point of mass that you can whip your body around like really. No.

• 35:03David Imel?

  It probably would.

• 35:05Andrew Manganelli?

  You said he doesn't game, right?

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Does not game. Um, and it's not movies.

• 35:10Andrew Manganelli?

  The first thing I would like think of that would actually be beneficial to have something is some sort of like 3D rendering or modeling in a. So you can see things in a 3D space.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Interesting, but not what he said.

• 35:22David Imel?

  What else can you do in this thing?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  He said, he loves it for reading manga. And I was like, doesn't the, if you're looking at a page, doesn't the foveated rendering like ruin that experience? Like only the thing you're looking at is in focus really? And the rest of it's sort of like unrendered gobbledygook?

• 35:42Speaker 06

  Well, the thing about manga specifically is that most of the things are drawn. It's, it's like pictures and the text is quite big like you. I can also read other stuff, but I wouldn't necessarily read a book in it. But for manga, it's perfect because you mostly like look at the pictures and read the text for it. And then you just swipe every 15 seconds or so. And then it's you don't have to hold anything. It's really awesome.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Enough about manga.

• 36:06Andrew Manganelli?

  Never.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Never. Yeah, you're so right. I don't read any manga. I barely know anything about it. But I want to talk about developing on Vision OS.

• 36:14David Imel?

  Okay.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Because have you been in the App Store on Vision OS?

• 36:18Andrew Manganelli?

  Not in a very long time.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  It is like going to a mall in 2025. There is like

• 36:23Andrew Manganelli?

  The lights are out.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  The the lights are out. It's it. There's dripping from the ceiling.

• 36:28David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  There's like three stores and they're all like half open.

• 36:32David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Andrew Manganelli?

  There's always one Kohl's attached to like the side of it that is still open.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. Got to get that blue light special. That's Kohl's, right?

• 36:39David Imel?

  I don't know. Kohl's is not a restaurant.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Anyone talking about the blue light special? One of those old timey stores would there'd be like this thing where like in the middle of the day.

• 36:49Andrew Manganelli?

  Kmart.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Kmart. This blue light would come on and it would signify like an ultra deal. And you'd have to like run to one part of the store and like wow.

• 36:58Andrew Manganelli?

  I hate everything about that story.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Before Fortnite, real life was actually kind of like Fortnite. I don't know if you guys knew this.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Anyway.

• 37:08Andrew Manganelli?

  Interesting. Go on.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Ellis, 2025. Before Fortnite.

• 37:14David Imel?

  Continue.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  So both of them said developing for Apple Vision Pro is not particularly difficult if you're already coming from traditional Mac app slash iOS app. And one of the reason, one of the reason that is, is because over the years, Apple has actually made developing for iOS and developing for Mac more and more similar with Swift. And I think that's a really cool thing, especially now that both devices are running on Apple Silicon. Obviously, the M series and the A series are very different chips. But they're more similar than, you know, we're not going to use the word Intel around here, but uh, but you know what I mean?

• 37:58David Imel?

  Wow.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  And so they both said, if you're used to using Apple's APIs, you can kind of get started pretty easily. And that is actually where their their perspectives began to differ. And one thing.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  You know, Greg has this really complicated AR app. It's you need to model a piano, but not really display it because you need to be able to see the actual piano you're sitting at. And then that needs to be pinned to a physical location in the world and then you need to be generating these objects that fall linearly and they need to land on the right keys because if they're even a little bit off, the app is useless. You're not, you're not getting useful information for playing this piano. And he found the Apple APIs to be pretty useful for that purpose. He said he had to model the piano himself, which took a little bit of time. But after that, things like the spheres that represent the notes, there's an API for that,

• 39:01Speaker 02

  getting them to like stream down, there's an API for that. And Chiha actually had sort of an opposite experience.

• 39:12Speaker 06

  So the interesting thing about Division Pro is there are two different worlds within Division Pro. One world is you open your app and you say, my app is the only app that can run now. All other apps have to be gone. And when you enter that mode, you get access to more functionality. You get access to things that the camera is tracking, like the walls, the surfaces, the tables that the device is finding in your room. So you can do more. In that way, case, you can actually do a lot of stuff. You could do skeletal tracking, you could do many things, but that goes back to basically how I see the Division Pro as a VR device right now, because that, I would call that

• 39:56Speaker 06

  the VR mode, because you only have this one app that can do something. And even if it does augment like reality augmentation stuff, it can't do it together with other apps that also may be augmenting or trying to augment reality. And that's like technically, that's called the full space for apps. If you run it in the full space, then you can have access to all those. But if you run it in the other one, in the shared space where all the apps can be open, where you can have like a window here, a window there and move them around, you can't access any of these APIs. And that's, that's the thing that I think makes this device really interesting if you, as an AR device, if you can open multiple apps and do things with those.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  This was so interesting to hear because the ability to multitask this like spatial computing environment was to me the signature selling point of the Vision Pro. And the fact that it's actually sort of harder to develop in that mode really like was not something I expected to hear.

• 40:55Speaker 06

  The thing, the part I'm thinking that it's mostly lacking is the AR part. Like there's space, I personally don't see the Vision Pro as an AR device yet because the software is missing.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Really? Wait, okay. Wow, okay. Damn, you're really giving me a lot here. What's missing from the AR part of it?

• 41:17Speaker 06

  Well, what is augmenting reality? It means you can augment reality by adding stuff to your reality, right? So when I want to add stuff to my reality, like I have an app where you can basically open posters and pin them to your walls. And then that's like augmenting reality. You can do that. It works like my app is there. But as soon as you switch the device off and turn it back on, the augmenting of the reality is gone. So I would state that the augmentation of reality is just temporary right now. It's not persistent. And this doesn't make it really an AR device because I can't really augment my room. I can't really augment my place.

• 41:57Speaker 06

  Just imagine if I was basically creating a new dimension of world where I have different kinds of things in my home and I can switch it on and off whenever I want. And maybe I have multiple different ones. I have one for work, one for leisure time, and one for like when I pass it on to guests. So that's the kind of AR that I'm imagining and seeing as AR, and that's completely missing right now.

• 42:23David Imel?

  That's something that the Quest does well, actually, is your home space that you have on the Quest. You can like customize and it can be like very personalized to use that every time you turn it on, if you land in the home space by default, then you have all your stuff and it's in the same space, right?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Remind me, is the Quest's home space, is it, are you referring to?

• 42:44Speaker 05

  Like the boundary that you draw?

• 42:45David Imel?

  It's like called like Quest Home or something?

• 42:47Speaker 02

  But are you referring to like the weird sort of like room that you can choose? Or it's not a pass through experience?

• 42:54David Imel?

  No.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  It's a, yeah.

• 42:56David Imel?

  Right, so it is, it's a very different thing.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  It is different.

• 42:58David Imel?

  VR versus AR.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  But. Yes, VR versus AR, but I do think you raised this really good point that persistence is so important

• 43:08David Imel?

  Totally.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  in manufacturing any reality, whether it's an augmented version of our existing reality, or it's a complete virtual reality.

• 43:15David Imel?

  I will say, like, one of the huge things that multiple people have brought up many times is that I would love to use this thing sitting in front of my computer, but the problem is that when I want to like pin windows around me and like do all this setup so that, oh, in my kitchen, it has this really amazing thing where like you can keep things in other rooms, but the fact that when you turn it off and then turn it back on, all of that is gone, it makes it really difficult to use this thing redundantly and

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:44David Imel?

  it's like beneficial, like, oh, I'm gonna use it in my living room now, oh, I'm gonna use it in my kitchen now, I'm gonna use it in my bedroom now, and without that persistence, it's so much effort to just set things up every single time.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Yes, and that just to me just feels like this giant blind spot that's like almost worse than the price. It's not worse than the price, $4,000 is so much money.

• 44:06David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  But seriously, it's like

• 44:08David Imel?

  It is a huge blind spot.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Even as someone who only uses this thing at my desk at work,

• 44:13David Imel?

  Hmm.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  literally not a single other time, having to reset all my windows

• 44:19David Imel?

  Totally.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  every time I get to work sucks.

• 44:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  It sucks so bad, and when this thing got announced, I remember all these commercials where it's like, you can pin your cooking instructions, dude, toaster, and then it'll be, and it's like,

• 44:33David Imel?

  Every time.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  what's the point of that? It's like, picture the real world version of that, where every time you leave a sticky note somewhere in your house, and then you leave your house, it's gone.

• 44:41Andrew Manganelli?

  No, it's all back in a stack and you have to re-sticky it out all over again.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  That's like even worse somehow.

• 44:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  So naturally, I had to

• 44:49David Imel?

  That's a great analogy.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so naturally I had to ask, right? But Vision OS 2?

• 44:55David Imel?

  Well, that's already out.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  I know, but it fixed this, right? Like, they fixed it, like, they added the necessary APIs, they sort of like, you know, fixed it.

• 45:02Andrew Manganelli?

  No.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  No, and Shihot, once again, and this is his opinion, this is not like based on like hardcore reporting, but he sort of enlightened me with This.

• 45:14Speaker 06

  Vision OS 2, in my point of view, was like an update that basically fixed or filled gaps, more or less, that developers already expected to be there from day one. So Vision OS 2, I don't, I wouldn't say it brought any new APIs, new functionalities, new tools that enabled developers to do new stuff. They just felt like, they just heard, listened to the developer feedback who said like, hey, this is missing, this is buggy, this is, that kind of stuff was important too. But in my point of view, Vision OS 3 is going to be the first post-feedback release of Vision OS.

• 45:49David Imel?

  To me, it was crazy that they called it Vision OS 2 in the first place because they really kind of just improved on things that were obviously missing. Like, the big thing about it was they kind of just took the feedback from reviewers and people that were buying it that were like, it's very hard to recommend without these very obvious features, and they tried to add those in as quick as possible, but they didn't like change, like add APIs, like you said, and like totally change how you use the device. I think that would be a real 2.0, so it's pretty wild that they didn't just call it 1.5.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  I know, especially given the timeline of it, right? Like, Vision Pro comes out in February, and then in June, the Vision OS 2 beta happens. I can't remember if that was the developer beta or the public beta, but it's like, they're not going to be adding crazy new features once the beta is out. Like, it's pretty, I mean, unless I fundamentally misunderstand how to develop software. So Jihad, like he said, it really feels like Vision OS 3 is going to be the first real new thing we get.

• 46:51David Imel?

  Does he have like a wishlist of things that he wants to see in Vision OS 3?

• 46:55Speaker 02

  David, I'm so happy you asked.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Not only does he have a wishlist, but it is beautifully written, unbelievably clear, and on his blog, flyne.dev, F-L-I-N-E.dev, and in an article called, "Why I Stopped Building for Vision OS and What Could Bring Me Back." And his wishlist, number one, magnetically pinning windows and objects to surfaces.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  This sort of exists, right? Like, it does recognize surfaces. You can sort of put stuff up against them, kind of. It's a little bit messier than that, but still isn't persistent. Doesn't really accomplish like a full mixed reality experience. Number two, advanced room scanning with editable 3D models. And he's talking about a hybrid API that combines the power of room plan and the 3D scanner. Apple clearly has a lot of experience with LiDAR.

• 47:52David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  At this point.

• 47:53David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Lots of Apple devices have LiDAR. Number three, skeletal recognition for fun AR interactions. I'll be real. I don't understand rigging in 3D stuff. Not a developer. I don't know if you knew this. So I'm not even going to try to explain how skeletal stuff works, but it has something to do with rigging. Or maybe not. Oops. And then more interactive immersive video experiences. Like, we should be able to have a 3D video that you can more walk around, maybe, I don't know.

• 48:31David Imel?

  Like Apple Maps, like he says.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Exactly, like, like in Apple Maps. And we actually had a really funny conversation about Apple Maps because I am an avid Microsoft Flight Simulator player. And are you guys familiar with the Bing Maps integration?

• 48:46David Imel?

  No.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Really? You know about this?

• 48:49David Imel?

  I didn't even know that was a product.

• 48:51Andrew Manganelli?

  I didn't know there was Bing Maps.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Are you, okay, so Bing Maps exists. Google or Microsoft owns, you know, all of this map data. And they also own Azure, right? The cloud computing platform.

• 49:03David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  And they have this big partnership with a little company. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. OpenAI. I don't actually know if OpenAI's models are part of this, but I would assume it's part of this just sort of extended family of nonsense. But when you're playing Microsoft Flight Simulator, they leverage open source map data and Bing Maps data.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  With an AI running on Azure Cloud to recreate the entire world in 3D.

• 49:34David Imel?

  Oh.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  To the point, because they're using like real up like up to date satellite maps from Big Maps. If you fly over your house, not only will you be like, hey, that's my house. I recognize it. You'll be like, that's my car parked outside. Yeah.

• 49:49David Imel?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  It's awesome. It's awesome. So when you're like flying around the neighborhood you grew up in, you can use like real landmarks to navigate. Or like when I'm flying around Los Angeles where I grew up, it's like amazing. I can be like, there's my, there's actually something really beautiful about being in the sky and seeing your entire childhood neighborhood at once and being like, that's the park where I played baseball. That's my elementary school and like, like, like a decade of memories being experienced at once. It's amazing. Anyway, this is all to say, this is possible. We have the technology. It's in a stupid video game.

• 50:25David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  So Jihad like was really frustrated. He felt like he wasn't, he didn't have the APIs necessary to truly make the AR experiences of his dreams. Meanwhile, Greg's experience was actually like way more rewarding. He, he found the new workflows of, you know, coding on a Mac, putting on the headset, writing a few more lines of code in the headset, testing it out, taking it off challenging, but rewarding and something to think about. And he also said something that I thought was really cool, which is that when you write iOS apps, you're constantly thinking about how do I put everything in this box, this rectangle, in a way that like makes the most sense, right? And then when you're working with Vision Pro apps, all of a sudden you have,

• 51:11Speaker 02

  in theory, limitless amounts of space. And what do you do with that? How do you not overload the user, but also how do you not underwhelm the user? And I was just like, wow, that is such a fun brain shift to get to do.

• 51:26Speaker 07

  But once again, like Apple are really helping and how to, how to design stuff in 3D and. And I think, I think it's so cool. Like when you, when you build an app on an iOS, you have to think in a small rectangle. You have to, here you have all the space around you to, to bring information. It's so cool. And that's why I wanted to like, on my app in, on the piano, the notes are falling from the, from the sky. And it's cool to see.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Greg also said that he found Vision OS 2 to have some really meaningful improvements, specifically for the piano app. Anchor points are much more stable.

• 52:11Speaker 07

  You know, when you put an anchor in the real world, you want it to, to be very stable. For example, for the piano application,

• 52:21Speaker 07

  I don't want it to shift like even some millimeters. It will show the wrong note, for example, on the piano. So I really want it to be very accurate. And I think with Vision OS 2, they improved it a little bit. It's very, very good accuracy. And when you put an anchor on the, on the real world, it will stick.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  When you like say, hey, in the real world, this point is here. Uh, there's a lot less jitter, um, which as I'm sure you can imagine for something like the piano app is a lot better.

• 52:54Speaker 05

  Kind of important.

• 52:55Andrew Manganelli?

  It's also funny because that sounds like a 1.x update, not a 2.0 update because it's an, it's less, it's fixed, right? It's a thing that exists that was

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:04Andrew Manganelli?

  Improved upon.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  Exactly. So one thing that I was really curious about as someone who doesn't develop is how different is coding for iOS versus Macintosh? God, it feels weird to say Macintosh, but I'm going to say it. How different is iOS and Macintosh? And then how different are those two things from Vision Pro? From a developer's perspective? And one thing that both of these devs brought up is that over the years, Apple has really pushed these sort of semantic solutions. Right? Where back in the day, if you were coding for Mac and you wanted to put a search bar in a specific place, you would enter in coordinates. Sometimes they're UV coordinates and there's other kind of coordinates. You would It to that location, bada bada bada, you'd start to like build your layout, right?

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Over the years, Apple has really made it such as that they know where the best place for a search bar is in an iOS app. It's not going to be buried in a hamburger menu. It's not going to be at the lower left hand side of the screen. Like you know where the the magnifying glass is supposed to go.

• 54:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, the bottom of the Safari window.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  And so when you're writing Swift code, oftentimes what you're saying is not put the search bar at the top of the screen. You're saying, put the search bar in the search bar place.

• 54:17Speaker 06

  One thing that definitely is different on vision OS than on macOS or iOS is that it didn't have that old system where you could describe like, I want to have a button at this coordinate and it looks exactly like it. It just doesn't have that. Same as the watch OS, by the way, on watch OS, you can't also do that. On iOS, because we had this old system before 2019, there was this old system. And on the Mac, it's still there. You can still use it and you can always fall back to it. Like, Apple didn't drop support for that old system. It's still there. You can use the new one, which had these baked in functionalities, or you can choose to use the old one. But on on vision OS, we don't have it. They basically, when they introduce new platforms nowadays, they say, OK, we only introduce

• 55:02Speaker 06

  a new system, you have to use it. And the new system is more restricted and you can't like UI wise, there are things you can't really control yourself in detail. So it's a bit different, but still you can make a lot of custom stuff still when it comes to like window UIs and stuff like that. And I would see the limitations more in the on the parts that are not just buttons and UI elements like you have on iPad, etc., and other platforms, but the stuff that the vision Pro should actually excel at being AR and VR.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Which, on the one hand, at first I was like, that sounds not fun. That sounds like Apple is telling you how to do things. And both Greg and she hot responded, they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not like that, bro. Like, obviously, sometimes it's fun to have freedom.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  As far as your user interface goes, but for the most part, when you're making an app, the user interface is not creative expression. Like, you need it to be intuitive so that people can actually use your dang thing. And it's, it can bog you down, like, having to write all of this code. But something really interesting that they mentioned is that on both Mac OS and iOS, you can always fall back on the old system. You can always override the prescribed semantics. You can always go back to the coordinates.

• 56:22Andrew Manganelli?

  Okay.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  That is not true on Vision Pro.

• 56:25Andrew Manganelli?

  Interesting.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  And it's because there's no legacy system that Vision Pro is building upon. I mean, technically, it's, it's a fork of iPadOS. But at the same time, you don't get any of those old tools. And I thought that was like a really interesting thing as a developer because Vision OS is different from Mac OS and iPadOS where with, or iOS. iOS has been around since 2007. We know the best place, I'm gonna use the search, but we know where it is. We've figured it out. We've, we've, we've gone through the fire. But we don't know these things yet for Vision Pro. Like, we have an idea of what's probably gonna work well, and it seems like it's going all right. We all agree that this thing is very intuitive.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  But also, I don't know, I sort of think we should have the freedom to get a little messy. We're new in this thing.

• 57:15Andrew Manganelli?

  I see, I mean, I think no one will ever be upset with more freedom. But one thing, I mean, we all agree that the thing Apple nailed with Vision Pro was the intuitiveness. So that means they probably found out quite a few things correctly. And like, do you trust them? Do you not trust them? It sounds like they have, I mean, I know you, it's over, over a decade of research of iOS stuff, knowing where certain things are supposed to go. And this is fairly new, but they seem to have hit it pretty well off the bat, so.

• 57:47David Imel?

  I think they nailed it with the interaction stuff, but I think that in terms of the way that apps should work and how they should be pinned and how you should interact with the actual UI elements, I think that's maybe something that might be interesting for developers to kind of mess around with.

• 58:04Speaker 05

  It's always interesting for, I totally agree with that. But like, I don't know, using it feels really intuitive. It feels like they, that's the thing they nailed.

• 58:12David Imel?

  Well, there's also the delineation between like interfacing with a floating window versus interfacing with like an object or something like that.

• 58:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:20David Imel?

  You know what I mean? Like a window, I think Apple knows what they're doing. But something else entirely might be, might be different.

• 58:28Speaker 05

  Do you think once more developers or once there's more people on board with this, they'll kind of revert back to a grid system?

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 58:35Speaker 05

  You don't think they'll give the freedom once people are like, oh, we're used to this. Like, we get it now. It's been five, 10 years of Spatial OS, whatever it's called. And then be like, okay, here's a little bit more freedom now that we kind of know where everything is. Or like, this is them, just like, this is where it goes, that's fine.

• 58:52David Imel?

  I mean, it's possible that Apple, it feels like Apple wants to have more and more and more control moving forward in general.

• 58:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:00David Imel?

  And it seems like maybe because the iPhone and the Mac have been out for so long, they can't necessarily just flip a switch and say, we're taking away all your control. But for a completely new paradigm, they feel more emboldened to do that.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Well, and also I got the impression that Apple views the, those, the coordinate system is just like one example, right? But a lot of these sort of, you do everything from scratch as sort of a legacy way of building these things. And Apple does not seem like the kind of company that is going to fall back on a legacy. And I'd also like to raise, there's another really common development platform, he's not looking at me, there's another really common development platform that works like this. Not exactly like, put this in the best place, but this is sort of how HTML works.

• 59:45Speaker 06

  It works a bit, bit like HTML on the web, where you more describe what you want to have, and then the browser decides how it renders it. And this time, the system now decides how it's rendered.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think being a developer for the Apple Vision Pro, you're in this very weird place where you have all of these tools. And yet, in order to realize this device as sort of what Apple advertised, you're actually missing a bunch of key tools. And there's no guarantee anyone's actually going to give you any money for that, this stuff. You know, Jihad brought up this really good point that when the Vision Pro first came out, he was like, there's going to be this gold rush moment. It's going to be like the iPhone, where like people are paying a dollar for the beer app, you know? And that, it was sort of like that for a week, but he said after a week, it was just like, just sort of stopped. Anyway, we're going to take another break. When we get back from the break, we are going to try our best to look to the future and see what's in store for this magical piece of garbage.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  And until then, am I wrong? Am I wrong? David, David, David, you and I, we're in the same boat, right? Like, we, we live in New York, we're around lots of people, they know we're tech folk. And we get asked, should I buy a Vision Pro?

• 1:00:57David Imel?

  And I always say no.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:01:00David Imel?

  I say try, I say go to an Apple store and experience it because it's very fun and then you don't need to buy it.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:01:07David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  It's a magical piece of garbage.

• 1:01:09David Imel?

  That's going a little bit far.

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I don't think so. It's magical. You put it on and you go, Jihad said something, Jihad was like, was like, after I gave it to some of my older family members and they took it off, they got kind of freaked out because they were like, how do I know I'm not wearing the headset right now?

• 1:01:28David Imel?

  Oh my gosh. Oh no, we can't go down this rabbit hole.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  No, but all I'm saying is that is magic. And personally, personally, I really hate that thing that people say where they're like, any sufficiently advanced piece of technology is indistinguishable from magic. And hit the wrong button for me. Yeah, I hate that one. And we can get into that at another time. But Apple Vision Pro is magic, undeniably, and it also doesn't do anything. Ergo, it is a magical piece of garbage. I'm not going to take any, I love Vision Pro. I, I'm like the biggest Vision Pro guy in the office and I firmly believe magic trash. And without giving any of my hosts a chance to respond, I'm going to take it to commercial.

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• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  Welcome back to the freezer, AKA the waveform studio. We're cold and I'm Ellis and we're gonna be talking about the future of Vision Pro and where we think it's heading. And I poked and prodded these developers as hard as I could to try to be like, speculate, speculate, speculate, and they just wouldn't. They were like, I don't know. So that's our job as your resident morons. I would like to go first with my speculation.

• 1:04:58David Imel?

  Sure.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  Okay. I am doubtful cheaper Vision Pro will come out. I want it to. I see it as pretty much the only way this platform is going to survive.

• 1:05:08David Imel?

  You mean like ever or like soon, like in the next year or two?

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  I don't want to say ever because it's not... Look, we had this big year this year where both Meta and Snap unveiled these tiny glasses. They're not even 1% as powerful as Vision Pro. They don't have as high a resolution. They don't work as well in almost every way. That being said, the degree to which the form factor was scaled down is nuts.

• 1:05:39David Imel?

  It's very compelling.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  It's super compelling. And if I were Apple, I would at least be thinking, hmm, maybe this is where this is going and not a big giant headset. And you already have this really powerful base that is Vision OS. I could see not spending money developing a cheaper, slimmer headset, going back to hardcore research mode, cultivating Vision OS into something that will eventually run on glasses and just waiting for other people to do the necessary research to make these things.

• 1:06:15David Imel?

  I don't think that's what's gonna happen.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  You don't think that's what's gonna happen? What do you, David Amell, think is gonna happen?

• 1:06:20David Imel?

  I think that they are gonna try to make it slimmer.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:06:23David Imel?

  They're absolutely gonna try to make it cheaper.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:06:26David Imel?

  And there might even be a situation where they subsidize the price a little bit.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:06:32David Imel?

  They're... Google... It costs Google $50 more than it cost them to make the Nexus 7 to sell it. Because they just needed to adopt Google Play users. And that worked very well for them. So what Apple needs to do is they need to make it less annoying to wear. Uh, they need to make it cheaper. And they need to make a killer app that actually makes people want to use it every day. Uh, or it just enhance the work features where you do have permanent spatial pending and that kind of stuff. And I think that considering chipsets are like getting faster and lower power and all this kind of stuff. They could even like, I don't know, switch to an A series chip at some point. It probably doesn't need to run an M series chip.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:07:13David Imel?

  I mean, a lot of this stuff is getting easier to run. The chipsets are getting faster. The node dot, the node size is shrinking. Like, I think that they could potentially put it on a smaller chip later down the line. But, um, yeah, I think the build quality is allowed to take a hit if it means it can go smaller. And if they could sell it for $1,500 or, or less, I think that that could be a winner. But they need, they need to make it cheaper.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  If you go on Vision Pro, r slash Vision Pro, I think that's what it's called. Um, you almost always see people bragging. They were like, I just finished my Vision Pro setup. And it's always Mac mini, magic keyboard, Apple Vision Pro, no monitor. Like, that is the thing people are most stoked about is like, and I don't really, uh, I like that you said $1,500 because the alternative to a Vision Pro in that setup is a studio display.

• 1:08:11David Imel?

  Right.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Which is also overpriced.

• 1:08:14David Imel?

  Yep, definitely.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  But I think the idea of you're building an at-home desktop setup. Vision Pro versus studio display.

• 1:08:26Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Actually, kind of makes sense. Both have speakers, both have a webcam. It just sort of depends, you know, what your vibe is.

• 1:08:33Andrew Manganelli?

  I was gonna take the very common Andrew route and go somewhere in between both.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:08:39Andrew Manganelli?

  Wow, you coward. I kind of like, agree with both of you. I think we all agree that the Meta glasses and the Vision Pro are the two far ends of the spectrum and they're both battling to the middle of that. And they just like started at different routes. So like, the form factor is better on Meta glasses, if you can create that, but the computing power is nothing. Where the form factors, they just focused way too much on over quality, controlling it, and it's just like not comfortable to wear, but the computer power is insane.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Andrew Manganelli?

  I like what David said of like this, think of how the Quest has like, the Quest 3 and now the Quest 3S. Like, I don't, I don't know what they would call it, because it wouldn't be Vision Pro. It'd be like Vision SE. Would be that like thousand dollar version that's maybe a little more plastic, which is funny to think like, plastic is lower quality, but will be so much more comfortable on your head and lighter. So like, something like that, I think we totally see it because they need to keep developing inside of Vision. And we're already seeing, if one of our two developers we talked to is like, "I'm not doing this anymore," not a great route for developers. So they need something to keep them around and they need something that, you know, you need the research of how people are using it.

• 1:09:53Andrew Manganelli?

  So if you make it four thousand dollars, yeah, if you make it way too expensive, you need to make it accessible.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Andrew Manganelli?

  So I also agree with subsidizing some, and then they're gonna work down towards the better form factor. But I think we are, you know, as impressive as Snap and Meta are with their glasses, we are just so far away from that being the form factor of like, actually producing what you want to use in everyday life and being able to afford it.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  And, and it seems like the, what you need to make a budget version of this, whenever I talk to engineers, not just Apple, but Meta, Snap, all over the place who are working on these problems, I get wildly different answers. Like, I was talking, I'm not gonna, you know, name any names, but I was talking to engineers at one company who were like, "Yeah, you know, getting a stable image to both of your eyes is really tough, because you have almost no tolerance for any flex." Like, as soon as one of the displays moves ever so slightly, all of a sudden... The, the, your, your brain is struggling to like combine them into a stereoscopic image.

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  I then asked that to another company and they were like, sounds like a skill issue. And I was just like, I don't know what to believe, man.

• 1:11:09Andrew Manganelli?

  There's no like standard in this and I think all the companies are working and we've had them admit that too. They're like, this is what we want with this. We think it's going to be the standard, but we're also ready to uh like switch gears and move to the thing that universally becomes the standard.

• 1:11:24David Imel?

  Yeah. No, I mean, I think some people believe that like a smaller field of view and higher resolution is more important than Meta's wider field of view and lower resolution. You know what I mean?

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34David Imel?

  And there's just two, there's just a lot of different competing camps on how this is gonna go. And this goes, this is almost a protocol question.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42David Imel?

  Because there's just a lot of competing standards until eventually people figure it out.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  I know. You know, it's really funny that you brought up that dichotomy because it really does actually make the Vision Pro make a little bit more sense. Because the Apple solution to, do we go with higher resolution or do we go with more field of view?

• 1:12:02David Imel?

  Yes.

• 1:12:02Andrew Manganelli?

  Is yes.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Both and make it insane.

• 1:12:05David Imel?

  Yeah. Yeah. That, that's something else that I was thinking about. I think that they know that they need to make this like cheaper and lighter and made it more plastic. But Apple has entered a stage in their company's lifespan where everything they make is jewelry. They have, they don't really sell a product that isn't supposed to be like jewelry. You know what I mean?

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  What do you mean by jewelry? Expand on that.

• 1:12:26David Imel?

  Like the fit and finish and the build quality and everything is just like insane.

• 1:12:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Material qualities.

• 1:12:32David Imel?

  The materials, titanium, like fricking everything they make is just like, they, so I think that they're scared of making something that feels like it could be a little bit cheaper. Whereas Meta is just like, I don't know, dude, throw at the wall, like figure it out. It doesn't really matter if it's plastic. It doesn't, we're just trying to like advance the technology.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  And we're trying to put this people's hands. We're trying to put this, oh, excuse me. We're trying to put this on people's heads.

• 1:12:53Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah. Who's doing that though?

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  Meta.

• 1:12:56David Imel?

  Meta.

• 1:12:56Andrew Manganelli?

  The funny thing is though is it really solidifies my original thought. I think a lot of us agreed with this of like, the Apple Vision Pro feels like it was a dev kit that they sold to consumers. And the consumer aspect of it didn't work out quite as well.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12David Imel?

  It's a technology advancing like prototype that they fixed the fit and finish on to sell it to people who are willing to spend a lot of money.

• 1:13:21Andrew Manganelli?

  And arguably made it worse to do that.

• 1:13:22David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. And it's like, as somebody who really uses it a lot, it's, it's one of the few tech products I've used in the past year. That really just like lights a fire in me.

• 1:13:38David Imel?

  I would kill for a fire right now. I have a question for you though, Ellis.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43David Imel?

  Um, you're using the studios unit.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  You, no, absolutely. I would never buy this thing. There was one, there was one, it's a magic piece of trash. And I love it. And it's the best thing you can buy. And it's not, it's not worth it. And like every, no, once or twice. I've like gone on eBay. You can get a used one.

• 1:14:05David Imel?

  What's like 2,600 or something?

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Cheaper, like 22.

• 1:14:09David Imel?

  Still a lot of money.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  It's even that is like too much for me because it's like, I could buy, ah, they're lower. I'm seeing them for 18.

• 1:14:18David Imel?

  Go to sold listings.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, let's, let's go to sold listings. How do I do that? Cheapest one, 13, 1389.

• 1:14:26David Imel?

  Was it broken?

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  No, sealed Apple Vision Pro.

• 1:14:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Whoa, that's not a great look.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  But it might be, it's a 21 medium. I don't know if they, that's like, oh, you little, little small head guy.

• 1:14:38David Imel?

  One third of the value in one year.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm seeing 14, I'm seeing 26, I'm seeing 31.

• 1:14:44David Imel?

  Interesting. Okay.

• 1:14:45Speaker 02

  Seems like they're selling it all over the place.

• 1:14:47David Imel?

  Clearly varies.

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna lie, David. If someone came up to me on the street and was like.

• 1:14:52David Imel?

  For 13?

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  For 13, I might.

• 1:14:54David Imel?

  Yeah, I could see you considering that for 13.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  I think I, I think I might do it actually for 13, but I think.

• 1:15:00David Imel?

  Anyway.

• 1:15:00Andrew Manganelli?

  Now, what if it was made of plastic entirely?

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  And still worth, and still cost $1,300?

• 1:15:05David Imel?

  But it still had the same experience and was lighter.

• 1:15:08Andrew Manganelli?

  That sounds bettered.

• 1:15:10David Imel?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:15:11Andrew Manganelli?

  But it's nice.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ, I just learned something about myself.

• 1:15:15David Imel?

  You like Julie?

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Cause I was like, yeah, yeah. Cause I was like, I don't know about that. Like, I don't want a plastic thing.

• 1:15:20David Imel?

  And this is probably what Apple was thinking too, but I think they're wrong.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:15:26David Imel?

  So.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Is, are people like me just impossible to satisfy?

• 1:15:30Andrew Manganelli?

  Yes.

• 1:15:30David Imel?

  Yep. Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  Well, before we go, I wanted to ask you guys a question. What is the killer app that you think would ignite Division Pro's sales? That, that would make you go, $4,000?

• 1:15:47David Imel?

  Nothing.

• 1:15:48Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48David Imel?

  Darn. I love flat screens and I love my laptop.

• 1:15:56David Imel?

  I don't know. I don't need to, it's, it's great. It's fun. It's awesome. But the way I see it, like, you're just doing the same thing in a different paradigm. And I don't, like, I'm not a sculptor, right? I could see from like a, a 3D, like modeler's point of view.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13David Imel?

  How this could be really incredible if you really like, I don't know, had tactile feedback or something and it actually felt you were sculpting something. For me, I write words. I consume articles. I don't need to do that in 3D space versus on a flat display.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28David Imel?

  So.

• 1:16:28Andrew Manganelli?

  Yeah, I think I just really don't see myself in a position of using it. It would have to be productivity wise, because entertainment wise, I think there's still something weird about, you know, I live in a house with my wife and a kid now. Being inside of a Vision Pro feels really weird if they're in the same room as I am. So like, maybe if I was single in an apartment and really liked watching a lot of sports and stuff like that, maybe there's some cool exterior sports apps that could fit in there. But, uh.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  That Chi-Hot brought up a really good point, that if they nailed the soccer football experience, oh my God, like this thing would fly off the shelf.

• 1:17:05David Imel?

  I also want to note that like, I think a lot of, the reason a lot of people love like the Quest is because they can have like a YouTube video playing on the side while they're doing their dishes.

• 1:17:15Andrew Manganelli?

  All comes back to the dishes.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  No, there's so many times I've like been on a FaceTime call with someone in Vision Pro and then I'll just send them a screenshot and it'll be like the FaceTime call, like, you know, a pretty normal size. And then I'll have like a 70 foot Family Guy Funniest Moments compilation like right next to it. I'll be like, great call.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  So I got it.

• 1:17:37David Imel?

  We need to focus our energy. We need to, we need to be paying more attention to what we're doing at any given.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we need Family Guy, Funniest Moments, compilations. I think my killer app, killer experience, I mean, on top of my absolutely hilarious productivity app idea that I'm still waiting for someone to implement, where your tasks chase you around the house and the more important tasks move faster and are scarier.

• 1:18:06David Imel?

  Yeah, literally a killer app.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Literally.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  Now, I would like to see, I, so I am in this sort of unique space where I am one of the few audio professionals who works more in headphones than on speakers. That's like a pretty not normal thing for audio folk. And if I could get really killer audio integration, like if I could, if there was a headphone

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  and I could like fully like reuse it as like a sound card and have like truly no latency, direct like, I mean, I guess I can already do that out of my interface, but then I still have to have like this headphone core, I don't know, like to me, that's where it comes in super clutch is like when I'm in a mix and I'm wearing my headphones and I just want to like lock in.

• 1:18:53David Imel?

  Yeah, it's a good point. So like you're using the Vision Pro as your main computer to do the.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Right now, I'm using it in remote, remote desktop.

• 1:19:01David Imel?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Same, same difference. And like, I know, I've talked to a bunch of mix engineers who all say, man, I want to mix in this thing.

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  Audio nerd moment. One of the ways we tell what we're hearing is our brain is constantly comparing the information we have between our two ears. Part of the way sound makes it to our ears is it comes across our nose and our cheekbones and is actually like directed across our face to our ears. When you have a big thing right here, it makes, it makes stuff sound different. And, and sometimes it can be harder to have a clear, perceive a clear stereo image with ski goggles on your face.

• 1:19:45David Imel?

  You guys are missing the one thing that would make this instantly fly off the shelves, even at $4,000.

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  I said soccer.

• 1:19:51David Imel?

  Better. GTA 6. If it had an exclusive game.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  That would be too much.

• 1:19:59David Imel?

  People would just solve.

• 1:20:00Speaker 02

  Do you remember how?

• 1:20:01David Imel?

  Apple's problem.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  No, but do you guys remember how gnarly it was when GTA V came out on next gen, quote unquote, next gen consoles, Xbox One? And they added the first person mode, which wasn't in the 360 release? And everyone was like, wait. I don't like this. No, there was this moment where everyone was like, like GTA, it's like fun to be irreverent in GTA, but all of a sudden in first person.

• 1:20:26David Imel?

  It makes it too real.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, this is less fun now. I think, um, I think, I think in VR, it would be way too real.

• 1:20:35David Imel?

  When the, when the Vive was the most popular headset in like 2015, there was a game that came out that was basically like Call of Duty, but first person and people loved it.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:47David Imel?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  There, okay, I'm going to close with this because I had a really interesting experience last weekend that I didn't think about Vision Pro, but now I'm thinking about it as it pertains to Vision Pro.

• 1:20:55David Imel?

  Okay.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  If you live in one of the cities where this movie is screening, I highly suggest you go see it. It's a movie called Grand Theft Hamlet. Have you guys heard of this?

• 1:21:03David Imel?

  No, you guys went to it.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Grand Theft Hamlet is a staging of Hamlet entirely within Grand Theft Auto. And when Mariah put it in Slack, I was like, this sounds stupid. I'll go see it. It was so beautiful and I cannot stop thinking about this movie after seeing it. And that would be a pretty cool thing for Vision Pro if I could, if I could, actually, if this existed and the community existed, this might be the thing. Cause like, I'm kind of interested in, in exploring theater, especially after seeing this movie. And I don't want to go to a place. I don't have enough time. So if I could like, wear this thing and use my creepy Apple persona as a character on a stage and read a soliloquy.

• 1:21:47David Imel?

  So like live events?

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  I guess I'm thinking specifically like theater, like something that you have multiple people and you're interacting and you're, and you're playing and.

• 1:21:56David Imel?

  And you like kick a ball and it goes into a net.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  No, well, maybe, maybe for, yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  All right. My co-hosts are freezing. I'm somehow doing fine. Normally, I'm the cold one. This is weird. Anyway, I'm gonna wrap it up here. I want to give a big, big thank you to Jihad and Greg for coming on the show. You can find Jihad on Blue Sky, Twitter, Mastodon. We'll put his links in the show notes, and if you're watching the video, it'll be somewhere on the screen. Gregor, is there anything that you would like to share about yourself, about developing for Vision Pro, something that you feel like people might not know without you telling them? Anything before we wrap up the call?

• 1:22:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, just one thing. Like, I know there are a lot of developer who develop iOS app, and I really encourage them to step into 3D world. It's like, it's not that hard. And if they are able to build stuff in 2D, it's okay in 3D.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  And Greg is also on Twitter. Also, don't forget, if you are a dev, if you're interested in indie development, I highly recommend checking out Jihad's blog. That is F L I N E dot dev. Again, thank you, guys, so much for speaking with us. You were so helpful, so informative, and probably a little annoyed talking to someone who knows as little about this stuff as I do. Anyway, I'm Ellis, that's Andrew, that's David, Adam's over there, we're freezing, we're gonna wrap. What does Mark Hesner really do? He goes, peace.

• 1:23:29Andrew Manganelli?

  Catch you guys in the next one.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, catch you guys in the next one. That sounds so forced.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Ellis out. Keep this. Ellis out.

• 1:23:38Andrew Manganelli?

  Waveform was produced by Adam Alina and Ellis Rovin. We're partnered with Vox Media Podcast Network, and our trailer music was created by Vane Sil.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  Bingo.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  As soon as autumn rolls around and you swap your iced lattes for pumpkin spice, that's your signal to start thinking about the holidays.

• 1:24:13Speaker 06

  The decor, the gifts, the shopping lists, but more importantly, the holiday treats. Cheese cakes, cookies, is there anything better? And when the recipe calls for cream cheese, there's only one option. Philadelphia, the original cream cheese, made with fresh milk and real cream. This holiday season, whether you're going all out or keeping it simple, make it really Philly good. Find your favorite holiday recipe at creamcheese.com.

• 1:24:50Speaker 06

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