S2E49: Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove: The World's only Parapsychology PhD | Talk Tracks

Can dreams and synchronicities be the Universe's way of leading you to become your best self? In this Talk Tracks episode, Ky sits down with researcher, author, and talk show host Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove, the world's first and only PhD in Parapsychology. For fifty years Dr. Mishlove has hosted radio, television, and podcast shows where he interviewed the top minds in frontier science, speaking with leaders in fields such as physics and psychology. Currently his Youtube channel, New Thinking Allowed, releases new episodes daily. Dr. Mishlove has also authored articles and books on the paranormal and psychical research, including The Roots of Consciousness, Psi Development Systems, and The PK Man. Together, Ky and Dr. Mishlove explore the shared death experience that launched his career in parapsychology, and the dreams that guided his journey. Dr. Mishlove also shares stories from early-1970s San Francisco, reflecting on the eclectic cast of characters who shaped that era. Finally, they dive into his award-winning 2021 Bigelow Institute essay, which presents compelling evidence for the survival of human consciousness after permanent bodily death. _______ Join The Telepathy Tapes Backstage Pass https://thetelepathytapes.supercast.com/ to get ad-free episodes, never-before-heard interviews, behind-the-scenes documentary footage, and access to our private Discord community. This is your invitation to come closer. To help shape what’s next. To be more than a listener… to be a co-creator of this paradigm shift. So if you’ve felt moved, if you’ve felt seen, if you’ve felt the call, subscribe today and join us: thetelepathytapes.com. https://thetelepathytapes.com/ _______ Thank you to our sponsors! Alloy http://myalloy.com/ - Try the original estrogen-powered M4 skincare from Alloy. Visit myalloy.com http://myalloy.com/ and use code TAPES for $20 off your first order! BiOptimizers https://bioptimizers.com/tapes - Make this the year you finally get your sleep, your energy, and yourself back. Get 15% off at bioptimizers.com/tapes https://bioptimizers.com/tapes when you use my code, TAPES. Ka'Chava https://kachava.com/ - Go to kachava.com https://kachava.com/ and use code TAPES for 15% off your first order. Lola Blankets https://lolablankets.com/ - For a limited time, our listeners can get 40% OFF select Lola Blankets products with code TAPES at checkout, go to lolablankets.com https://lolablankets.com/. Luminara https://www.luminara.care/ - If you’re curious about energy healing and ready to experience it for yourself, Luminara is offering 20% off your first session for listeners of The Telepathy Tapes. Just go to luminara.care https://www.luminara.care/ and use code TAPES20. Progressive http://Progressive.com- Insurance isn't one-size-fits-all. Visit Progressive.com http://Progressive.com and find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price® tool. Shopify http://shopify.com/tapes - Start your business today with the industry’s best business partner, Shopify. Sign up for your free trial at Shopify.com/tapes http://shopify.com/tapes. Quince https://www.quince.com/tapes - Find the fall pieces you’ll reach for most at Quince. Go to Quince.com/tapes https://www.quince.com/tapes for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ky Dickens?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kai Dickens and welcome to the Talk Tracks, brought to you weekly by TTT Media. In this series, we explore the threads that weave together our understanding of reality, science, spirituality, consciousness, and even unexplained phenomena. Because every era has ideas once dismissed as impossible until someone was willing to investigate them seriously. And on this show, we do just that.

• 0:28Ky Dickens?

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• 1:10Ky Dickens?

  vanilla, chai, matcha, coconut acai, strawberry, and coffee. I love having something to look forward to in the middle of a busy day that also helps me take care of myself. So embrace your own salty side. Go to kachava.com and use code TAPES for 15% off your first order. That's K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code TAPES. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe. And that's exactly what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. The designs are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. Their 100% Mongolian cashmere

• 1:51Ky Dickens?

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• 2:35Ky Dickens?

  them, let them know it was the Telepathy Tapes. It's the best way to support our show. Today's guest is Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove. Dr. Mishlove is the world's first and only PhD in parapsychology. For those unfamiliar with the term, parapsychology refers to a field of study concerned with the investigation of paranormal or anomalous psychological phenomena. Dr. Mishlove has spent the last 50 years deeply enmeshed with the world's top minds of frontier science, interviewing leaders in fields such as physics and psychology for his show New Thinking Aloud, while authoring books of his own, such as The Roots of Consciousness or The PK Man. On today's episode, we talk with Dr. Mishlove about how a shared death experience started him on his path to parapsychology. So without further ado, Jeffrey, why don't

• 3:18Ky Dickens?

  you go ahead and introduce yourself? And maybe you can even talk about your life growing up and how it led you to pursue such an unusual career path?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Sure. My name is Jeffrey Mishlove. I have a doctoral degree in parapsychology. It was awarded from the University of California at Berkeley in 1980. As far as I know, to this day, I have the only doctoral diploma that actually says "parapsychology" on it ever awarded anywhere in the world by an accredited university. But I have to qualify that right away to say there are probably 200 or 300 people who have done doctoral-level research in the field of parapsychology. They just have diplomas that say other things

• 4:08Speaker 01

  on them. So my degree is unique because it was through an individual interdisciplinary doctoral program that I designed myself. So I was able to envision parapsychology the way I'd like to see it, which includes the entire history of mysticism in all cultures, going back to ancient shamanism. And I see parapsychology as part of that larger tradition, rather than simply a branch of experimental psychology. I had a pretty normal upbringing. I was raised in the Midwest in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. My father ran a furniture store and was also

• 4:54Speaker 01

  in the real estate business. And I imagined I'd probably do something like that when I got older. But as I got into college in the 1960s, it was a time of enormous social upheaval, a time of social protest because of the Vietnam War, and people questioning authority, and also the use of psychedelic drugs is beginning at that time. So you might say I had my mind blown open as an undergraduate in college. And in fact, I wrote a senior honors thesis at the University of Wisconsin on the psychology of religious mysticism.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  I had that interest even as an undergraduate. Then I enrolled in graduate school at Berkeley in criminology. And I was, if you had known me in 1972, you would have seen a person who was doing fieldwork at San Quentin Prison, working in the psychiatric unit there, doing group therapy sessions with murderers and rapists.

• 6:03Ky Dickens?

  When did you go from criminology to pursuing parapsychology?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Well, when I had the first and probably only major mystical experience of my life. It occurred in March of 1972, when I was asleep. To be honest, it was about 7:30 in the morning. And my great uncle Harry, who was in his 80s, appeared to me in a dream. And it was the most powerful dream of my life. Uncle Harry and I had an in-depth conversation. I can't really articulate exactly what happened. It was beyond words. But when I awoke from the dream, I was crying tears of joy. And I was singing a sacred song, a very sacred

• 6:50Speaker 01

  song, from my own religious background of Judaism. And so I wrote home. I said, "How's Uncle Harry?" I had a dream about him. And my mother called me immediately when she got my letter and said, "How did you know?" Uncle Harry had just died. And when I checked the records, it appears that he died exactly at the moment I had that dream. So that threw me through a loop. I began asking my professors, "What do you know about this sort of thing?" And I quickly discovered they didn't know anything.

• 7:25Ky Dickens?

  So what Dr. Mishlove had experienced is commonly referred to as a shared death experience, or STE. And we just did an episode all about shared death experiences. So please check that out. But in short, a shared death experience is when a loved one or caregiver experiences what appears to be the first stages of entering an afterlife along with the person who is dying or has just died. And again, if you want to hear more about this, please check out our last week's Talk Tracks episode, which does a deep dive into this fascinating event. So Jeffrey, after you had your shared death experience, how did you feel about it? And you know, how did you change moving on after such a profoundly mystical experience?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I felt it was so big in my life, so important, that it was worth finding out. I had to explore this. I had no real choice. And I agonized and agonized about it for months, actually. Like, how am I going to do this? I'm in criminology. And I realized, well, I'm looking at human deviance from the negative side, psychopathology and crime. But what if I were to switch and study human deviance from the positive side, which would be mysticism

• 8:38Speaker 01

  and parapsychology, intuition, creativity? Maybe I can just switch. I talked around at the university. There really weren't programs of that sort. But I persisted in thinking about it and wanting to make this change. I desperately wanted to make the change. I couldn't continue on this same track any longer. And one day, it's like I woke up in the morning with a certainty, a knowledge, that I was going to find the answer to my quest in a dream. And the dream was going to happen that night. And like, all day long, I just knew, tonight's the night. The dream is going to come. And sure enough, that night, I had

• 9:20Speaker 01

  a dream. And in the dream, I'll tell you the dream, if I may. I was just visiting some friends who lived across town in Albany, California, the other side of Berkeley, married student housing. I knew them well. I knocked on the door of their apartment, no answer. And in the dream, I found a key, let myself into their apartment, walked into the living room, and there, flat on the living room floor, all laid out was a magazine. I picked up this magazine, which in the dream was called I, E Y E, and was paging through it in the dream when I woke up with this feeling of

• 10:01Speaker 01

  exhilaration. This is it. I am the answer. And the funny thing is, I was certain I had the answer, but I didn't have a clue as to what it meant. So I put on my tennis shoes. This is the days like before running shoes even. And, and I ran across town, five miles to this apartment. I got there, I knocked on the door, and as I had dreamt, no answer. And it turned out, I did know where they hid the key. And I took the key, let myself into their apartment, walked into the living room. There, in the middle of the living room floor, was this, a magazine all splayed out. I picked it up, and the name of this

• 10:44Speaker 01

  magazine was Focus. And it happened to be, for people in the San Francisco Bay area, they'll know, it's the magazine of listener-sponsored radio and television, KQED. As I'm paging through the magazine, it dawned on me, for the first time in my life, I could pursue my interests by getting involved in the nonprofit sector of the media.

• 11:10Ky Dickens?

  So what Dr. Mishlove experienced here is what's often referred to as claircognizance. And claircognizance means clear knowing, which is a psychic or intuitive ability where a person suddenly just knows something without any logical explanation or proof. Okay, so Jeffrey, you have the stream that kind of leads you to a radio station.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Which was an odd thing for me, because back in those days, I had long hair, I had a beard, I was a hippie. And, and not only that, I didn't believe, I didn't own a radio or television, and I was certain that they were all phony baloney. I wanted nothing to do with electronic media. I thought the only authentic human interactions were face to face. But I changed my mind right then. And I went over to KPFA Radio, which was listener-sponsored Pacifica Radio in Berkeley, California, where I lived, and said, I'm

• 12:09Speaker 01

  here to volunteer. And they said, oh, good. Here, we need somebody to sit at this desk. And when you hear the buzzer, press this button and let people in the front door. And even though I had my master's degree at that point in criminology, I gladly did it. And within three weeks, I had learned how to produce a radio show, which was called, if I remember correctly, You Don't Have to Be from Out of Town to be Psychic. And because I, I had a lot of local friends who were part of the community in Berkeley. And so

• 12:50Speaker 01

  the program director liked it so much, he said, we've got a slot, a regular slot for you every Tuesday and Thursday at noon. Would you mind hosting this interview show called The Mind's Ear? And like, within three weeks of my dream, I'm sitting at a table with world-class experts from all over the world, passing through San Francisco on their book tours, and coming to KPFA, which had a 50,000 watt transmitter and covered, you know, all of Northern California. And I had a resource that I, I could have in-depth people like

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Robert Monroe, were passing through, the author of Journeys Out of the Body, and many, many luminaries. And that's what gave me the confidence to go back to the university and create my own individual interdisciplinary doctoral major in parapsychology. So that, that's how it began.

• 13:52Ky Dickens?

  That's incredible. So you're interviewing some of the biggest names in consciousness studies within weeks of following a literal dream. It's almost like that was your schooling, right? Like, the radio show was your education, and you were able to receive this, like, firsthand, primary knowledge from these amazing people?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 14:09Ky Dickens?

  And for those of you unfamiliar with Robert Monroe, he's really the definitive modern researcher on out-of-body experiences and astral projection, which is where your consciousness separates from your physical body to travel through a non-physical dimension called the astral plane. Robert Monroe also started the Monroe Institute, where Tom Campbell, who we've had on the show, really pioneered a lot of his field research into astral projection. Okay, so I digress. So Jeffrey, can you tell us a little bit more about some of the people you interviewed during that time? What was it like to be a part of all that? Because this field has been controversial for so long.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Well, you know, you have to imagine what it was like in the 1970s, in the San Francisco Bay area. It was a wild and crazy time, synchronicities happening everywhere.

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• 15:35Speaker 01

  You're talking about world-class physics being done. And David Kaiser wrote a book called How the Hippies Saved Physics. Well, those guys were all my friends, and I'm even mentioned peripherally in that book. So it felt like the revolution was about to happen, that the whole world was going to wake up to what's going on in parapsychology. I was invited in those years to live with Arthur R. Young, the inventor of the bell helicopter, who founded the Institute for the Study of Consciousness in Berkeley, which became a hub of all the people who were interested in these things. And Arthur Young himself

• 16:15Speaker 01

  was, was a genius. So we were surrounded by geniuses. He was involved in funding some of the early research with Errie Geller at SRI International, a major industrial military think tank. And I sponsored Errie Geller's first major public event in the United States. We filled Zellerbach Auditorium on the Berkeley campus. 1,800 people came. I was sponsoring symposiums. Andrea Puharic showed up. It seemed as if, you know, this was going to change the world. At the same time, the internet was just getting started. ARPANET, people

• 16:57Speaker 01

  like Jacques Vallée were a part of our group studying UFOs. And it was a very strange time. It was also, the Patty Hearst kidnapping took place just a few blocks away from the Institute for the Study of Consciousness. And KPFA Radio, where I was doing my show at the time, is where the Symbionese Liberation Army was sending their messages. So we had the world media camped right outside the radio station.

• 17:28Ky Dickens?

  The whiplash between mainstream, world-changing technology, and fringe mysticism occurring in the exact same place is incredible. And this was a volatile moment in the 1970s, when the boundaries of physical reality, material science, and social order seemed to be, you know, just cracking wide open. So Jeffrey, you know, with the world seemingly on the cusp of something new, with new consciousness studies being explored in the popular culture, how did we lose momentum?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Well, as I say, we thought it was going to change the world. And Jacques, who was working on ARPANET, said he also realized the internet was going to change the world. We can look back now and say, yes, the internet did. And parapsychology and consciousness had a huge cultural impact, but it didn't achieve the kind of expectations that I had, and many of us had back then. When I think of it now, I go back to the writings of William James, the founder of American psychology, who was also deeply involved in this field. And he said, we cannot expect progress in what was then called psychical research,

• 18:36Speaker 01

  decade by decade, as we do in other disciplines, because the implications are so deep, they're metaphysical. He said, we have to instead look by the century and by the half-century to measure progress. So it's just, it's happening, but at a different speed, because it's truly far more profound than the internet. And the internet is changing everybody's life.

• 19:02Ky Dickens?

  So, okay, if we go with that quote from William James, then you'd think there'd be a lot of progress, right? And acceptance made around, you know, consciousness and kind of the unseen world. So since it's been around 50 years, since you started in consciousness studies, do you see any difference between now and 1973?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. There is a difference, for sure. The very fact that we're having this conversation is a reflection of That difference, it's being much more widely talked about. As far as I know, the telepathy tapes, it's like the number one podcast. So yeah, that that reflects a difference. It's like things are getting better and worse altogether at the same time, where humanity is, I would say, we're kind of at a tipping point. It's like many people would say it's incumbent upon us to make a leap of consciousness, or we're going to perish, because things are heading in some levels in a very bad direction. And

• 20:01Speaker 01

  if human beings don't learn how to navigate this in a healthier way, we're probably going to end up destroying ourselves, and it'll be our fault.

• 20:13Ky Dickens?

  Okay. So then what does your family think of your career in parapsychology?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  You know what? If it wasn't for having a supportive wife, I wouldn't have been able to have had this career, because it was very difficult. There were times when, you know, nobody wanted to hire me. So I was very fortunate to have a family who believed in me and would support my work. I think people who want to go into this field need to be aware that you have to have a real passion for it, because even today, while things are opening up and there are many more opportunities than there used to be, it's still kind of controversial, and there are going to be people who are vehemently opposed. As soon as I got my degree in parapsychology, the skeptics were all over it. They call

• 21:00Speaker 01

  themselves skeptics, but they're not really. A true philosophical skeptic is more than anything skeptical of themselves. These people, they call themselves the psychops. They were not skeptical of themselves. They were certain that they had the absolute truth. It was a religious belief for them, and basically in materialism, and that all this psychic stuff had to be nonsense. So they put enormous pressure on the University of California to withdraw the degree that had already been awarded. And when they failed at that, then they tried to libel me, and I had to fight a libel suit for six years.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  So it's a good thing that I was also credentialed as a clinical psychologist.

• 21:46Ky Dickens?

  Why do you think some people are so bothered about scholars studying, you know, the unseen world or the paranormal? What makes people so scared of even just researching something like telepathy from your point of view?

• 22:03Speaker 03

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• 22:36Speaker 01

  Why is telepathy threatening to people? The thing is, if we look at it in a deeper way, let's take a look at Freud, for example, the pioneer in depth psychology. He came up with the idea of defense mechanisms. Well, what are defense mechanisms all about? We're defending ourselves from knowing who we really are. We don't want to know what's inside our own minds. And the idea that somebody else might be able to look and see what's happening inside of our mind, things that we don't want to know, is terrifying to some people. And so it manifests itself, in my opinion, in these irrational skeptics

• 23:18Speaker 01

  who call themselves skeptics, but they're the least skeptical people of all when it comes to questioning their own ideology. But they represent a social force that is trying to tamp down the potential expansion of telepathic abilities in the general population. They don't want it to have any legitimacy whatsoever. That's why I'm the only person after 40 years with a doctoral degree that says parapsychology. It should, in their minds, never have the legitimacy of science, or the legitimacy of a major public institution, because after all, well, I'll give you the perfect archetype for this. Back in the

• 24:02Speaker 01

  days when Uri Geller was getting a lot of publicity, Arthur C. Clarke, the great science fiction writer, who has written some beautiful books, like Childhood's End, in which he writes rather positively about the paranormal, came out publicly and he said, you know, Geller's a fraud. And at the same time, he was giving a talk at Berkeley, and I was in the audience. He's giving a talk in the student union, and he finished his talk. I raised my hand. I said, Mr. Clarke, do you believe in ESP? And he said, this is very telling. He said, no, I do not, because I don't want anybody to read my mind.

• 24:46Ky Dickens?

  So I want to change topics here just a little bit, and talk about what you've been up to recently, because you were the grand prize winner of the 2021 Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies essay competition, presenting the best evidence for the survival of human consciousness after permanent bodily death. So congratulations on that win.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Thank you. Well, I tell you what was really an interesting synchronicity is that the award ceremony took place at Bigelow Aerospace Facilities in Las Vegas on my 75th birthday. So it was, it was a wonderful birthday.

• 25:21Ky Dickens?

  What was your essay about? Because I know that there were some incredible essays out there looking at this stuff.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  The theme of the essay was for the best evidence for the survival of human consciousness after permanent bodily death. The gist of my essay, the thrust of it, is that there are nine different lines of evidence, each independent of the other, all pointing to the idea of human survival. You might say, well, no, no one of them is conclusive. But when you look at all nine, everything from mere death experiences, to reincarnation evidence, to people who use these voice boxes and get electronic messages, signals from the dead going back and forth, two-way communications through mediums, physical

• 26:09Speaker 01

  mediumship, like materialization of deceased people, for example, or voices that come out of the air. It's called direct voice mediumship. Not to mention the deathbed experiences, where people sometimes see their loved ones waiting for them on the other side as they're dying. And occasionally, they had experiences of seeing someone they didn't know was already deceased. So you've got all of these lines of evidence, and they're all pointing in that direction. So you have to look at the accumulation. And there are very good examples in each of those categories. I've been doing interviews on this topic for decades. So

• 26:51Speaker 01

  I could go back to some of my old interviews, for example, of the Nobel laureate Francis Crick was talking to me about the possibility of life after death. He didn't believe it, but he said, it's possible. We haven't ruled it out yet. He admitted on camera for me that it's totally reasonable within what we know of science today that there could be an afterlife.

• 27:16Ky Dickens?

  So again, congratulations. And then, you know, since then, is there anything you've been working on?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  I've done a whole series of interviews, ten now, with a very interesting case. I'd refer to it as two souls in one body. We were talking about a 37-year-old man and 18-year-old female sharing a body together. I am working with a team of scientists to study this case, because it, conventionally speaking, would be called a case of dissociative identity disorder, what used to be called multiple personality disorder. I think of them as really two different people. It doesn't matter how you view it. The key here is they've learned how to switch back and forth instantly. They've shared a body as a result

• 28:02Speaker 01

  of doing a lot of work on themselves, a lot of deep meditation. So at this point, even though it's been problematic, they had to do psychotherapy. It's now become not a disorder, but simply a condition, maybe even a healthy condition. But brain researchers are interested in understanding what happens in the brain when these two personalities shift back and forth the way they do. So I've helped to organize a team of researchers, multidisciplinary, who are planning to do some extensive research on that case.

• 28:38Ky Dickens?

  Well, I am very excited for what conclusions your team finds. Dr. Mishlove, thank you for chatting with our team. You've walked so that others that follow you can really run when they do this work. So do you have any final messages for our listeners?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Well, yes. I wonder, when I look back at my life and see how I was guided by dreams to pursue the life that I've lived, then I would have to say, Mal, I'll be 80 this year. I can look back and say, it's been a great, well, it's been very fulfilling. I would wish that everybody could feel as fulfilled as I do, knowing that the work that you're doing is helping other people and giving you an enormous amount of satisfaction. So I wonder, you know, what's, what's it all about? Why did I receive those dreams that pointed me in the right direction? And it occurs to me that the universe is conscious,

• 29:33Speaker 01

  and we are conscious. We are part of a conscious universe, and each of us has a unique destiny to fulfill. It's different for each and every person. But ultimately, the universe wants each of us to become the very best version of ourselves. And if we commit to doing that, the universe is going to reach out through dreams, through synchronicities, and doors will open. So I encourage everybody who's listening to this podcast to think about, what does it mean for you to become the best version of yourself?

• 30:09Ky Dickens?

  That's it for this episode of The Talk Tracks. But new episodes will be released every Wednesday, so stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together our reality. And please remember to stay kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. To dive in deeper, subscribe to our Backstage Pass by visiting our website. With it, you'll unlock access to bonus content like telepathy tests, Ask Me Anything interviews with myself and guests. You'll be able to enjoy the podcast ad-free, connect with other members on our Telepathy Tribe Discord, and hear and see exclusive content from the Telepathy Tapes Vault. Visit our website at thetelepathytapes.com for more info on how to subscribe to our Backstage Pass. Thank you to my amazing collaborators. This episode was produced by Ryan Betchard,

• 30:54Ky Dickens?

  technical directing, audio mix, and finishing by Jeremy Cole, opening and closing music by Elizabeth P. W., and original logo and cover art by Ben Kandora Design. I'm Kai Dickens, your executive producer, writer, and host.