How to keep close friendships (w/ Aminatou Sow)

“People are expected to have good friendships, but nobody talks about how they happen,” says journalist Aminatou Sow. Aminatou is also the host of the podcast Call Your Girlfriend and the author of the book Big Friendship: How We Keep Each Other Close. She joins Chris to discuss the communication efforts necessary to maintain meaningful friendships, why she rejects Western society’s obsession with self-improvement, the insights she gained from reading obituaries and the act of grace in sharing bits of yourself with others. Follow Host: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en | chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/) Guest: Aminatou Sow (Instagram: @aminatou https://www.instagram.com/aminatou/?hl=en) Links Crème de la Crème Substack https://aminatou.substack.com/ Book: bigfriendship.com/ https://www.bigfriendship.com/ Podcast: callyourgirlfriend.com/ https://www.callyourgirlfriend.com/ Subscribe to TED Instagram:@ted https://www.instagram.com/ted/?hl=en YouTube:@TED https://www.youtube.com/@TED TikTok:@tedtoks https://www.tiktok.com/@tedtoks?lang=en LinkedIn:@ted-conferences https://www.linkedin.com/company/ted-conferences Website:ted.com https://ted.com Podcasts:https://www.ted.com/podcaststed.com/podcasts http://ted.com/podcasts For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts https://go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Chris Duffy?

  You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. If I had to pick a single thing that I think is the most important thing when it comes to friendships, relationships, and even your relationship with yourself, I'd say it's being able to communicate honestly about what it is that you're feeling. Today's guest, the inimitable writer and podcaster and woman around town, Aminatou So, is extremely good at this. Aminatou gives honest advice to strangers in her newsletter. She wrote a book, Big Friendship: How We Keep Each Other Close with her friend Anne Friedman, where one of the memorable sections was being very honest about how they went to couples counseling together as platonic friends to figure out how to navigate issues and communicate

• 0:43Chris Duffy?

  better and stay connected. She and Anne also hosted the popular podcast Call Your Girlfriend for years. Call Your Girlfriend was always funny and fun, but it was also refreshingly honest. As an example, here's a clip from one episode where Anne and Aminatou are talking about being self-employed.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  We were having a conversation some months ago about the ways in which the skills we have had to develop in working for ourselves and on our own do and don't translate to staff employment, and also about some of the myths surrounding self-employment that I think are perpetuated by a lot of self-labeled, creative class, digital people who are like, this is a thing that everyone should aspire to. So, we kind of want to talk about this whole cocktail of stuff.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, it probably helps to talk about how we ended up being self-employed, right?

• 1:37Speaker 01

  I agree. How did you end up self-employed?

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Woo, child. My serotonin went to war. My dopamine went to war. Nobody is back yet.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  That's how you ended up self-employed?

• 1:49Speaker 02

  That's how I ended up self-employed. All my life, I had to fight for myself.

• 1:57Chris Duffy?

  Okay, you already get a sense of the kind of person that Aminatou is just by hearing that clip, right? So, today, we are going to have a wide-ranging and fascinating, and of course, a very honest, conversation with Aminatou So about how to navigate friendships, how to navigate relationships, and how to navigate your career while staying true to yourself. What does that mean? What does it mean to be really honest about who you are and what you want? But first, a quick ad break.

• 2:32Speaker 03

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• 3:06Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate

• 3:46Chris Duffy?

  at N R D C dot org slash human, and your gift will be matched five times. We're talking honesty, friendships, and how to pave your own path through the world with Aminatuso.

• 4:03Speaker 04

  Hello, I'm Aminatuso. I am a writer and interviewer. You can find me over at Substack at Creme de la Creme. And yeah, that's it.

• 4:13Chris Duffy?

  For people who maybe aren't super familiar, you wrote a book on friendship with one of your best friends. How did that come about?

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I wrote a book called Big Friendship with my big friend, Anne Friedman, who was also my creative collaborator for many, many years. We were the co-host of a podcast called Call Your Girlfriend. And in 2020, we published this book.

• 4:38Speaker 04

  That was a joint account of our friendship told by the both of us.

• 4:43Chris Duffy?

  I loved the book. I thought it was so well-written and accessible and funny, but also it brought up some really, to me, big ideas. I'm someone where like, I really am willing to put a lot of work into a romantic relationship. I'm willing to like, have the conversations and understand that there's going to be rough periods and we're going to have to have like, tough moments. And I don't think that I had really thought much about that same kind of work in friendship before reading your book. About the idea that you might need to spend time and effort and have awkward, uncomfortable conversations with people who you're friends with if you want those friendships and those relationships to last.

• 5:21Speaker 04

  Hearing you say that is not surprising to me. Like, I grew up in the exact same culture as you, where people are expected to have good friendships, but nobody talks about how they happen. And somehow, it's, you make friends when you're very, very young, and that's kind of all a mystery to everyone. And then you're expected to have them at every stage of life. And the truth is that if you don't put work and effort into that relationship, it's not true that you will have long-lasting friendships, you know, for your entire life. And so, we were, Anne and I are people who I think like, think a lot about this because we shared a lot of friendships, and also our friendship was very important to us. But I think more than anything, it's that we recognize that there was nothing special

• 6:03Speaker 04

  about our friendship. Especially our age, this like, kind of geriatric millennial, you know, like, uh, younger Gen X, like, that's kind of the, the age range that we're in. We were reaching that part of like, your mid-30s, you know, where it's, okay, like, your time is being challenged and your attention is being challenged in all these ways. It's, it's the peak of career. It's, a lot of people get caretaking responsibilities. Romantic relationships are like, really important in this phase of life. And I was like, well, how do I make time and room for this, these other relationships that really matter? And so, the book was really born out of all of those conversations.

• 6:38Chris Duffy?

  But your book came out right into the coronavirus pandemic, into a time where all of a sudden, people are having to be long-distance. But also, I think, there was a really profound disconnection for a lot of people that, at least the people in my world, still have not fully recovered from. The like, the severing of these like, close ties, and especially the like, somewhat weaker ties.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, you're so right. Nobody foresaw publishing in a pandemic. I will say that like as somebody who I like I moved to the United States when I was nineteen. I was in an international student college. I grew up moving a lot. I come from a background of people that have a lot of experience with long distance relationships. So I will say that the pandemic did not challenge my relationships the way that I saw it challenge a lot of other people's relationships. And that's not to say that it wasn't hard, but like Anne, for example, who was my, you know, like co-writer and collaborator and friend, we had not lived in the same city for like six or seven years at that point. So we were already in the rhythm of having a long distance relationship.

• 7:44Speaker 04

  And suddenly in COVID, we were like, oh, everybody's kind of living like us, where you have this person that you love that is halfway across the country and you have to find ways to show up for them, you know, that are creative and that are hard. And it threw a lot of people in for a loop. But I think the way that I really try to think about that time also as well, all relationships like face challenges. Like in the book, we write about what happens when you get into a rhythm with someone and then all of a sudden it's like they have a new shift at work. It's like this was your work round that you saw like nine to five. And then now they, you know, they either work far away from you or, you know, you had the morning shift and now they have the evening shift. There are always these like kind of small, smaller type like challenges that insert themselves.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  And part of like growing in a friendship is learning how to like stretch with them and stretch with that person and finding ways to overcome them. And sometimes those things are not overcomeable, you know?

• 8:37Chris Duffy?

  What are some like of the most effective, practical ways you've found to do that?

• 8:41Speaker 04

  I think the first thing that people should do is communicate, which sounds so silly. It sounds so silly. And I'm like, God, I can't believe I pay someone hundreds of dollars a week to remind me every week about this. But I think that like no two friendships are the same in the same way that no two relationships are the same. It's like they're governed by kind of the people inside of them and the moods inside of them. And I think that like communicating with that person like, hey, I feel like we're like challenged with time or with play or like whatever the thing is and saying like, how do you think we like bridge that gap? Because that communication is like, I think, more than 60% of the battle. It's like, if you can tell someone like, hi, I really love you,

• 9:24Speaker 04

  but like, life is doing a number on me right now and I don't have time or a way to show up for you, that takes care of like, most of the anxiety. You know, and then everything else is like, people are understanding, like, they are going through similar things usually than you are, you know, or they have a framework for kind of like, what you're going through. And so, yeah, it sounds really boring, but I was like, you should talk to them about it, you should know what they kind of expect and want, you should know what you expect and want, and then you should find like, small delightful ways to like, show up in that. Like with Anne, we're big on like, writing mail. And I still get excited when I open my mailbox and there is a postcard from my friend and it's something silly, you know what I mean? It's not a, it's not like she's on some fancy international trip, it's like, she literally lives in Los Angeles,

• 10:09Speaker 04

  but she sent me a piece of mail and she was thinking about me in that moment, and I was like, I love this, and now there are not just bills in my mailbox, someone is thinking about me somewhere else.

• 10:19Chris Duffy?

  Let's also talk about Creme de la Creme. I am such a fan, I think it is so fun and thoughtful and thought-provoking and funny, often all at the same time. Do you have a one-sentence description for it, or is it kind of just the writing and the topics that interest you the most?

• 10:34Speaker 04

  No, I do not have a one-sentence description for it, because, actually, you know what, let's try. It's a newsletter about things I'm interested in, and my interests are very varied, so, you know, some days it's like, very silly and other days it's, you know, like, a little more serious. You know, like, there's an advice column and other days there is, I don't know, like, links to shopping I'm into, I just... It's a real insight into how my brain works, I think, that newsletter, because I just show up and I do whatever I want. Every day I'm like, I don't have a boss, like, I'm the boss here, this is very exciting. I think that I, there is like, a kind of like, older internet that I miss, that I am trying to recreate for myself, and that has been, that's like, kind of the intent behind it.

• 11:17Chris Duffy?

  A thread that I kind of see... In your work, whether it is, you know, working in tech, being a digital strategist, being a writer, publishing the book, hosting the podcast, Call Your Girlfriend, and writing this newsletter, Creme de la Creme, is figuring out who exactly you want to be and who you are in a way that is not fitting exactly into some sort of culturally prescribed box.

• 11:45Speaker 04

  Wow, you're reflecting something back to me that I have not, I'll be honest with you, I don't spend a ton of time thinking about it. I think that there is this like very like Western white notion of like self-improvement, you know, like it's like a thing I see a lot and I don't really understand it. Like I genuinely do not understand it. It's not my culture. I have no judgment about it. I just am like, wow, like so many people are preoccupied with like, how do I become like better all the time? And it feels very laborious, you know, and I'm not really particularly interested in that kind of labor. But I am interested in like kind of this philosophical question of like, who am I? And like, where do I fit in the world? And I think that that is universal. You know, it's like I'm trying

• 12:30Speaker 04

  to write my way into like my own thoughts, you know? Like my brain is not quiet. I spend a lot of time thinking all the time. And in fact, I was talking to a friend who was telling me that like he has no inner thoughts. And then we got into this whole rabbit hole of like, what? Like some people, it's quiet in there. And then other people, it's just like chatter all day. And that has really rattled me. I did not know that there were people who had like a quiet mind. I certainly do not have a quiet mind. And so much of like writing for me is organizing those thoughts. I really appreciate that you like call out the sense of humor because I think that so much of like kind of my rejection on like self-improvement is this. I'm like, this is so self-serious. Like being alive is not serious business. You know, like I get it. It's like it's serious, but it's also it's

• 13:15Speaker 04

  very absurd and unserious. And I really try to lean into that absurdity and how I'm like, wow, like, can't believe I'm here and I gotta do all this stuff. Didn't ask to be born and here we are. And I think that at the end of the day, like, I'm a writer. I like to tell stories. I like to understand how things work and understanding like my place in the world. It's like the best frame that I know how to do that with.

• 13:38Chris Duffy?

  I completely agree that there is like a very real like cultural perspective that this comes out of. Like, it's your job to be improving yourself as an individual and you have to do this work all the time. And that's your job. Even if you don't think about it as a job, I think there's something at least countercultural about not doing that work and not buying into that and just saying like, I'm not, my version of who I am and what success looks like for me and what a full, complete life looks like is going to be my own, not some sort of one that's imposed on me that involves like living up to these impossible standards that also involve paying money all the time to all these certain things, you know, like, I think that that countercultural piece is what I'm really interested in.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I did not really grow up in a world where the model of success looks like me. I was like a fat, black girl from West Africa. And I'm not saying that in like a self-deprecating way. I'm like, those are like kind of the facts of my life. But I think that something about like not being a contender ended up like really working well for me because like the rest of people who look like me, I grew up in like very predominantly like white environments. Some of this is very like nature versus nurture. Like, you don't really get to take too much credit for like what your factory settings are. I think that my factory settings were very much like, okay, like, um,

• 15:01Speaker 04

  they said that it's not for me and that I am not really going to amount to anything in this like system. So, but I still have to be here and I have to find ways to survive and I have to find ways to to figure it out. And so I think that that has ended up like something that like is obviously like this painful wound for a lot of people and probably including for me, ends up being like an avenue for figuring out another path, right? And I think that that's really important. I think the other thing with me is that I am so not interested in like scolding other people or um really like kind of looking too much of what's on somebody else's paper and that's like from a really young age. I used to drive me crazy in class when people would be like, what's the homework? Like, what

• 15:46Speaker 04

  are you doing? And I'm just like, just look at your own paper. Like, we can't be like looking at each other's paper too much. This is, it's like very counterproductive. And I think that's something about like really focusing on myself and it's like all of my energy goes towards like making sense of myself. I don't really quite have the time to be like, oh, I like, I wonder what's happening over there with Chris Duffy. Like, what's he thinking? Like, what's he doing? What's he, you know, like I-

• 16:10Chris Duffy?

  Never an interesting answer, I'll tell you that.

• 16:12Speaker 04

  No, but I think that it's like a form of like being very self-centered. And I also think that the kind of like negative feelings that I work through a lot and like a lot of that has to do with like shame or like feelings of inadequacy or, you know, like surprise, surprise, like we all have the same sickness. But I think that like for me, I have found that I've gotten further ahead in thinking about this stuff by just being honest about where I am at. I was like, I can't make assumptions about anyone else. And I'm just like, okay, here's my deal today. Like, I feel like this or I feel like that. And I think that when you are honest about where you're at, it creates like an environment where other people are able to be honest as well. And I think that um so much of the

• 16:55Speaker 04

  community that I benefit from, particularly like online with strangers, is this thing where I'm just like, okay, like, here's what you think about me, but here's kind of the mess that I'm living in. And here's the, you know, like the mess that's in my head. Like, what's going on with you? And I think that an invitation to that conversation is so much more productive than just like performing, like being perfect or, you know, like having all your shit together or whatever. I don't know. I hope you can sort on this podcast. Yeah, I'm also like someone who's fascinated by scams, you know, like I love a scam. And so much of that is like growing up in Nigeria, like we were surrounded by these like very specific scams. And this is not to say that Nigeria is a country of more scammers. Like what's happened is that I grew up and I was like, oh, everyone is

• 17:38Speaker 04

  running some sort of scam. And one of the like most-

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Like persistent scams that people are running is that like some people, you feel that some people have it together. And I'm like, no, everyone's like a mess. And they like figure it out. It's like, yeah, you can be a mess and you're the president of the university. Or like, I'm like, these things don't, they're not correlated. And so I think that just being like really aware of that is also like, I find that like very humorous. I'm like, oh yeah, everyone's like messy and weird. And, and we just all have to live with that.

• 18:09Chris Duffy?

  I, I feel like often the, that feeling of like being a little outside of the situation that you're in, whether it's because people look different than you, or have different amounts of money, or are attracted to different people, like whatever that situation is, I think is often a really like rich position, even though it's uncomfortable, it's a really rich position for comedy and for humor, because you get to say like, you all take these things for granted. And I can just see the like absurdity of that one piece that you're, you're missing. And often that's like the funniest joke to me is to just point that stuff out.

• 18:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, but that stuff works on like every level because like to go back to like the self-improvement piece of it, the loudest people about self-improvement should be taking their own advice. It's like, what are you telling me about, you know, like how to like use my time? Like use your time.

• 19:03Chris Duffy?

  Totally.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Like, I'm good. There is also just this like very human thing of like, we always want to show each other, like kind of what we're up to, you know? And, and I think that like at its best, it's really cool. And at its worst, it just like breeds a lot of like resentment and misunderstanding. And so again, for me, I was like, I stay in my lane. Like I try not to talk about things I don't understand or I don't know. And, you know, I'm like, keep it small, keep it simple. And let's see where we all shake out, you know, like after life is like done.

• 19:37Chris Duffy?

  We're going to take another quick break right now, but then we will be right back.

• 19:49Chris Duffy?

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• 20:32Chris Duffy?

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• 20:42Speaker 05

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• 21:40Chris Duffy?

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• 22:40Chris Duffy?

  And we are back. For me personally, like something that I really love about being a writer and hosting a podcast, but also that I loved like since I was like 10 years old, reading books, was just getting to like ask questions and have my curiosity be sated a little bit or even like to get even more curious. I think that's like, to me, that's really like the driving force. I remember reading like books that took place, you know, like a kid living alone in a forest or like people living in the 1800s and being like, I can't believe that's how you'd make a log cabin or something like that. And I still feel like that in getting to interview people. It's just amazing to see the different ways that people think about the world and their life.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, you're scratching the exact right part of my brain. It's, I'm getting so excited hearing you say that, but I'm like, wow, you're laying there, my scam. I love, I love when people tell me what they think about. You know, I'm just like, how generous and how amazing. I think that, like, yeah, it's like, I was a kid like you who I read everything. I read every, I was like, wow, there's like kids in Alaska like doing this. And then there's kids in Madagascar doing that. Like, it was so cool. And I think that it probably, for me at least, like comes from a place of like, it just made me feel less lonely. I was like, okay, great. There's like, There's so many more versions of like how you can be a person than what I am seeing in front of my own eyes, you know, and so I think that was cool.

• 24:06Speaker 04

  And part of why I do an advice column, really, is that on creme de la creme is that I just really think that if you can ask questions, you kind of expose to everyone else that like we're all dealing with the same shit. It's like whenever I look at like the mail that I get for that advice column, it's always the same stuff. It's like, okay, I've like disappointed someone I love. I'm like, check, like we all do that. Or I'm about to do something that I know is bad, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Check, like I do that too. Or, you know, like my neighbors are driving me crazy. How do you talk to strangers? I'm just like, these are the same problems.

• 24:47Speaker 04

  Like, no one has brought me a problem in the advice column that I'm like, categorically, this is a new, this is a new, modern, you know, like not in the tell mood kind of problem. And that is, you know, I find that like very exciting because I'm just like, wow, we're all so different, but we're all the same. And I love interviewing people because I love asking them, I love asking them questions. I love hearing how you can ask the same person the same question and there's like, you know, however many different answers to that. I also love when you have an assumption about someone, like especially like the people that we interview that are in public life, you know, where you're like, okay, like, I've read like everything that you have to say about something. And I love when you ask them a really basic question and they can still like surprise

• 25:30Speaker 04

  you in their answer because guess what, like perceiving someone is not the same thing as them telling you themselves like what they actually mean and say. And so, yeah, that curiosity will never go away for me. I love that.

• 25:42Chris Duffy?

  Are you more excited when you're interviewing someone who feels like unattainable? Like, I can't believe we got to talk to them? Or are you more excited when you're interviewing someone where you're like, I had no idea that you existed before this?

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Oh, I don't believe anyone is unattainable. So that's

• 25:58Chris Duffy?

  Uh huh. Wow. Okay.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  That's the first problem. I'm like, yeah, no, no one's unattainable. It's a matter of like, uh, what's the right cycle for this? Yeah, I'm not like particularly interested in interviewing people that are on the interview circuit. Like, I don't think that I personally am going to bring out something so interesting about someone that like has a book out or is on a, you know, like a movie run or like a show or whatever. Like celebrities are celebrities and famous people are known people are known people. And also to be fair to them, like, they are here to talk about their work, not necessarily their kind of the innermost, like, the thing that you want to know about them is actually their private life, which is not fair to them. And I, that's also not interesting to me.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  However, I do love talking to someone that is not like a known quantity. And talking to them either about like work that's like fascinating that they're doing or like a way that they think that's different, you know, or introducing like a new person to the public. Like, I love that so much. And something that makes me think about is that like, I'm obsessed with reading obituaries. Like, every week I find out about like amazing people who would like had a lifetime of like amazing works, you know, that you just like don't know about. Always like blows my mind, like every single week. It's like I sit down, I read them. And particularly like obituaries of women and I'm always so struck by that. Where I was like, oh, look at this person who had like an amazing life and I am just finding out about them.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  Like now that they're no longer here. And I think that that is a, that's an experience that a lot of us have.

• 27:32Chris Duffy?

  It's always interesting to me to think about it in the like obituary thing where it's like, oh, there are a few milestones that you hit. And like, that's the stuff that gets remembered. It's not like the, each of the little rungs along the way. Like, you published a book.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  I know, but it's so fascinating to hear you. Think about obituaries in the like lifespan of work. You know, because I'm like, sure, maybe that's how you make it into the New York Times one, like, maybe. But there are all kinds of obituaries.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Oh, OK.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  And the ones that are like written by family members.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  That's what you're talking about.

• 28:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I think that like, again, yeah, but I'm talking about like both of those things. But I do think that it is like fascinating that, again, it's like someone's dead and we're like, what did they do at work? Like, how would I know them? You know? And I'm like, sometimes they're just like an amazing neighbor. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like a work thing. Or it's like someone who started like a cool like community program. Or I read this obit the other day that was like from this family that they wrote about their son who like died by suicide. And it was so like a heart wrenching in the sense that I was like, OK, they're like, do it's a very conscious choice to mention suicide. Right? Because they're like, we want people to know what happened here. And the whole time I was reading it, I was like, this is so generous.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  Like, they like wrote about their like family member in just this like beautiful, true way. And also like giving the public like a way to be like, here is how you can talk about your family member that you also might have complicated feelings about. And so, yeah, obituaries, what a fascinating, fascinating territory.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  That also brings, that brings up something that I wanted to talk to you about. It's something I struggle with a lot is that line between public and private. And I, I know from reading your writing that it's something you've thought consciously about, especially in the last couple of years, of like, what do you want to be out there in the public and what do you not want to be out there in the public?

• 29:27Speaker 04

  Because so much of what I write is like personal narrative and also like I've written a memoir, of course, like I share parts of myself. I think that the negotiation that I made with myself a long time ago was always that like I only share things that don't feel precious to me. If it feels like it will be helpful for someone, like it's in service, right? As opposed to like in just like, here is like a cool thing about me. I had cancer, which is not how anybody thinks about that stuff. I was like, if it's in service to like a greater conversation, then I'm happy to like let it go. I also think that something that happens is that we all have different ideas of like what should be private and not because.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  Again, and I think that some of this is like being a woman who writes online and also like because I had a podcast with my friend, people have like parasocial relationships, you know, like with women in ways that are like very specific. But the things that people ask of me are never the things that I give them, you know, and I'm always, it's always like fascinating like what they want to know. It's like they want to know about like romantic relationships. Like even in the New York Times review of our book, the reviewer was like, I wish I like knew this thing about her. And I was like, yeah, you're not going to know that about me. And I think I wrote like, I wrote a column about this like recently because, oh yeah, because somebody wrote in like with like a very unhinged kind of question. And I went back to them, I was like, if you know me personally, you should ask me.

• 30:52Speaker 04

  And if you don't know me, you kind of don't have a right to ask me. And so for me, like, that's kind of where the line is. It's like with my friends, like I'm generally like very open and it's, you know, it's like, whatever. But I was like, I, I do think that I fall on the side of like a, like even with the famous people, I think that people are allowed their privacy. Somebody living out loud or telling you something that you might think is invasive is not an invitation to like, to like rummage through their lives. That's like very kind of counter-cultural to the tabloid culture that we live in and to the Instagram culture we live in. But I'm just like, yeah, I was like, if somebody tells you something intimate about their lives, like it's a kindness, actually.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  It's like you should be grateful. Now you know something that you didn't know. You get to make meaning of it in your own life, but it's not an invitation to like ask them more about what else is going on with them. Like they'll tell you if they want to.

• 31:49Chris Duffy?

  I think just to ask a little bit more about this line, you know, you made, you made the joke, but it's also not a joke that you, you have been public about having health battles and dealing with cancer.

• 31:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:00Chris Duffy?

  And so that is something that I think people latch on to and they're completely agree with you. That is a real generosity that people can learn from what you went through and just not feel as alone if they are going through it. And yet that's also, I imagine, a real weight to have people know that or like reach out to you and share their own versions of that pain and struggle.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  That example specifically is interesting because when I did it at the time, there was not a lot of forethought. I think it was more of a, I genuinely thought I was going to die, which looking back on it now, I was like. That's interesting, too. And also, it's that thing that happens, I think, like when you are sick, where you have to keep a lot of people updated also at the same time, you know? And I was like, the logistics of that are becoming really hard. And so something that I told my friends ended up being something that I told the whole world. I still feel good about that disclosure. What is intense, though, is what you're talking about. It's like other people reaching out or they have like all these like very specific questions or they have these questions about treatment and all this stuff. And I'm always like, sorry, like I don't, I'm not a doctor.

• 33:02Speaker 04

  I don't really love to talk about medical stuff. Yeah, like that's not my lane, you know? Like going back to like, I don't like to talk about things that I don't understand very well. It's also like, none of this stuff like matters. It's like, actually, like when you are really sick and if you're annoyed about like, you know, like people asking you questions, I'm like, that's not the real thing you're annoyed about. You're annoyed about the fact that you might die, you know? And so that's just like another layer. And for me, at least, like it was helpful to to understand that. And many years later, like people still have questions about it. And I'm like, buy my next book and maybe you'll find out about it.

• 33:36Chris Duffy?

  Yeah, wait, tell me, what is the next book? You said it's done, but not out.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  It's a memoir about the years after my mom died.

• 33:44Chris Duffy?

  I think that's going to be a really interesting and amazing book. I mean, I've read a little bit of what you've written about dealing with that grief and moving into a world without a person who you really care about. I'm curious, you probably get a lot of questions from like people who are younger and kind of early in their career and trying to figure out, early in life, trying to figure things out. I'm curious, what threads come about the most in those? Like, what are the people, when people reach out who are twenties, early thirties, and they're asking you about life and work and figuring themselves out? What comes up the most? What do people most ask you about?

• 34:20Speaker 04

  You know, it's funny, I don't actually get those emails a lot anymore. I used to. And I remember at the time, I was like, I'm young, too. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. It's just not a good answer. I am like very involved with like a younger writer program. And I'm involved a lot also with like a program at my university. And so I do talk to young people all the time and It's like the same questions that like I had and I still have. It's just like, how am I gonna survive? And like, how do I make money? Basically, it's like, how do I like make money and how do I survive? I mean, I'm like, I don't know, girl. Like, you just take jobs. But the one thing that I do tell a lot of people who talk to me about like, how do I make work for my art? Is I always say, I'm like, you probably won't. So you should get a job. You should work a job.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  There is no shame in having a job. I always had jobs and I am, you know, like, what? Like, almost 20 years removed from like a college graduation. And I was like, that's how long it took for me to make money from being a, like, to be a working artist. Which is a thing I tell a lot of young people. I was like, find a way to support yourself. That is more important than suffering. And then the second question is always some variation of like, how do I do what you did? The answer to that is also like, you can't. Because I come from like, a kind of like a media and internet world that doesn't exist anymore. And so I think that like, the kind of, the sadness for me, whenever young people are like, you know, like, what's the path to here?

• 35:47Speaker 04

  I'm like, I don't know, because the path I took like, doesn't exist anymore. I climbed this ladder as the steps were disintegrating. I just don't know if you're like 22 and you're like, I wanna move to New York and be a writer. I'm like, I actually don't know how you do that. Like, that's a question for somebody else. And so a lot of times, I try to like, direct them towards younger writers to answer that for them. Careers of people today who like, do the thing that you and I do. I was like, I don't know that that is replicable. Like, in a way that like, makes sense. You know, for, for young people, because like, media has shifted so much. The internet landscape is different. Capitalism is doing a more intense version of capitalism. And so, that really bums me out.

• 36:28Chris Duffy?

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• 37:13Speaker 06

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• 37:27Chris Duffy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way, that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 37:38Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

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• 37:49Speaker 06

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• 38:09Speaker 03

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• 38:37Chris Duffy?

  The joke that is very much not a joke that I always make when someone asks me some version of that is like, I really hope that you figure it out and that you will hire me when you do because that is, I don't feel like I'm gonna be hiring you. I feel very much like I will be begging you for a job if you figure it out. So please do that.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  Oh, it's not a joke. It's the only reason I keep young people around. I was like, these are all gonna hire me one day. And it's been true. It's like a lot of people, like, someone who was my intern many years ago, like, was someone who just gave me, like, a gig recently. And I was like, see, I always knew this, um, yeah, horizontal loyalty, it was always gonna work out one way or the other.

• 39:18Chris Duffy?

  What about when, like, when they're asking you about how do you, like, survive? Like, how do you survive life?

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing I push them to is, is like, you're not gonna survive alone. And it's probably why this question of friendship is so important to me. Because I do think that finding ways to be in community with people that do not have, like, the pressure of romance or, like, biological family ties is so important. We're not looking for, like, 100 friends in the frame. It truly is, like, do you have a person in your life that you can count on, that can count on you? And are you both trying to move towards this, like, goal of being, like, good citizens of the community that you belong to? Like, that, to me, is, it's part of the answer. I don't think it's the

• 40:07Speaker 04

  whole answer. But whenever people come to me and they're just like, how do I survive? I'm like, I don't know, but find someone else who's trying to survive because it turns out, like, you're not the only person with this question. You're not the only person that's suffering. And to, like, tie it back to this theme of grief, I do think that one of the things that, like, having a parent die young, like, kind of afforded me was this truth of, like, Everyone is grieving something. You know, like every, it's like every interaction I have every day with someone, it's like whether I like them or they are driving me insane and I want to push them into traffic, I'm like, that person is grieving something. Friendship and grief are like very, they're like two pieces that go hand in hand.

• 40:51Speaker 04

  Staying in that place has like provided a lot of answers for me. It's just these like very simple truths. It's like all the stuff that you spend time running away from when you're young are the things that you have to run towards. All of the coping skills that helped you survive up until the train crash are now all of the things that you have to unlearn till like get to the next phase. It's like all of it is so, it's just like, I'm like, everything is cliche. It's so annoying. And at the same time, I'm like, wow, like what an intense opportunity to just choose another path. But again, it's like, you know, I'm just like, no one has a monopoly on the human suffering, especially not people who are making or listening to podcasts. So.

• 41:33Chris Duffy?

  That is definitely true.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  But yeah, again, being a person, it's hard. It's not like a oppression Olympics, but it's like, it's hard to be yourself.

• 41:42Chris Duffy?

  We've talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious how humor and the art of conversation and the art of writing, again, three things that I think you are so stupendously talented at, how those help you to navigate this like building of community and dealing with grief and figuring out your own path. How is the art tied to the life part for you? And how do they inform each other?

• 42:08Speaker 04

  Whatever the smallest human tether is to understand someone else, like I don't care where they're from or who they are or what they look like or, you know, I'm just like, my survival like involves being connected to another person. And that is, you know, like broad statement. But I do find that like generally, all conversation is, is like asking questions and following up. You know what I mean? Like, that's all the, welcome to podcasts. Some people do it better than others. I do think that one of the secrets of asking questions is that people love to talk about themselves, you know? And so if you ask questions that are like remotely thoughtful, or you ask people things

• 42:51Speaker 04

  that they're not being asked of, or, you know, they're not being considered that way. Really opens up a, like it opens up like a beautiful channel for being connected with people and making them feel like kind of considered and there is like dignity and like respects to every single person, like whether they are known or not. And I find that like in my line of work at least, that giving people the kind of time of day, that really considering deeply something that they're asking, not because someone else says they're important, but because I believe that every single person is important and the questions that they have are important and the dignity that they have as a person is so central.

• 43:31Chris Duffy?

  I'm just curious, on a meta level, if you can give advice to people who are trying to do this in there? Because I think you've done this to me in a really interesting way, which is to like push back on the framework or assumptions that a person has when they're talking to you. What advice would you have for people who are trying to do that in more in their life and haven't quite like mastered it yet?

• 43:54Speaker 04

  One is you just ask questions. I think that like a place that humans get in a lot of trouble is that people make these really strong declarative statements. I obviously feel I'm very safe to do them here in the hands of a professional. But I think like generally in civilian conversation, it gets you further along. If you say, hey, have you considered X, Y, Z or what do you think about? It's like you take the conversation somewhere else, you know, like not in an arrogant way. I do think that so much of the art of conversation is being humble and it's not about me. Making assumptions is like very silly. So if you don't know something, you should just ask.

• 44:32Chris Duffy?

  Thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a great conversation. I really appreciate you making the time.

• 44:36Speaker 04

  You are the best. I really enjoy you. I think you are so smart and lovely and this is a fun show. So thank you for having me.

• 44:44Chris Duffy?

  Wow, what a delight. I'm so, I'm so honored.

• 44:50Chris Duffy?

  That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Aminatou So. Her book is called Big Friendship, and you can find her newsletter at aminatu.substack.com. That is A-M-I-N-A-T-O-U.substack.com. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects, at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who I would gladly go to therapy with. On the TED side, we've got human beams of light, Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha-Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansukasungma Nivong, Antonio Le, and Joseph de Brine. Speaking of being true to yourself, this

• 45:33Chris Duffy?

  episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who are always true to the truth. On the PRX side, they are the creme de la creme. I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please, call up your girlfriend and recommend this podcast to them. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you.

• 46:05Chris Duffy?

  This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at nrdc.org/human, and your gift will be matched five times.

• 46:54Speaker 08

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