2 Girls, 1 Fort: Castillo de San Marcos National Monument

Looming over St. Augustine, Castillo de san Marcos, the oldest stone masonry fort in the country, has drawn paranormal enthusiasts from far and wide. With over three centuries of history, the fort has seen its fair share of tragedy. Spanish battles, sordid affairs, indigenous internment and more have led to a plethora of ghost stories - today’s episode delves into the truth behind the legends. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodes For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials: Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdark Support the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to this week’s partners! 3 Day Blinds: For their buy 1, get one 50% off deal, head to 3dayblinds.com/NPAD Mint Mobile: To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/npad IQ BAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products, plus FREE shipping. Message and data rates may apply. Quince: Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns at quince.com/npad Ka’Chava: Go to Ka’Chava: The Premium All-in-One Nutrition Shake | Ka'Chava and use code NPAD for 15% off your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This season, we're turning Designer Shoe Warehouse into Designer Shoe Wonderland, the most wonderful place to step up your gifting. Wrap up the perfect shoes for them and for you, because when you give shoes, you're really giving joy. And who doesn't have more joy on their wish list? Good things come in shoeboxes, so find the perfect pairs from gift-worthy brands for you and yours, in stores and online. DSW, let us surprise you.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Did you know that if your spouse goes missing, but you don't tell anyone, that's not necessarily a crime? That surprising fact is at the heart of the brand-new season of Bear Brook, the award-winning true crime podcast from New Hampshire Public Radio. I'm your host, Jason Moon. In season three of Private Matter, we investigate another New Hampshire mystery. A beloved Christmas tree farmer with dementia vanishes from his small town. His wife never reports him missing. Can he still be found?

• 1:03Speaker 02

  If you knew Jay as well as I do, he's private. He doesn't want everybody to know his business.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  Pat, I don't believe you.

• 1:13Speaker 04

  I kind of revert back to that Bear Brook thing, like, what if we were to just come across something?

• 1:19Speaker 05

  And I wrote down, she said, "I found him."

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Follow Bear Brook on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:33Danielle LaRock?

  In 2009, while I was buying black and pink sheet sets for my first-ever college dorm and funneling Bud Light in some random person's basement—I am so sorry, Mom—Zach Baggins was antagonizing ghosts in a national park. Well, more specifically, he was asking spirits to punch him while standing inside the walls of Castillo de San Marcos, the oldest masonry fort in the continental United States, crowned a national monument in 1924. Earlier that evening, as the sun was setting, National Park Service Ranger Marlin Smith heaved the heavy metal gates of the Castillo closed. With the large clang of a padlock and a wave goodbye,

• 2:15Danielle LaRock?

  he locked the ghost hunters team inside the impenetrable walls of the fort for the night. Washed in the green glow synonymous with night vision cameras, Zach goes on to shout at the spirits, calling the disembodied entities names like murderer, while he and his team wandered through the darkness of the fort, eager to capture evidence of the paranormal within the Castillo. For some, a guided ranger-led visit to the fort in the daylight to learn of the monument's three-century history is sufficient. For others, like Zach, who want a different perspective of the past, a ghost hunt in the dark is more their speed. So let's do a little of both. Today, we will venture to America's oldest city,

• 2:57Danielle LaRock?

  cross the fort's wooden bridge spanning a long dried-up moat, and turn back the pages of time to reveal centuries' worth of conflict, death, and imprisonment, and hopefully catch a glimpse of the entities that remain trapped within its walls. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 3:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  I've definitely never asked a ghost to punch me, but I was doing the exact same thing in 2009 as you.

• 3:39Danielle LaRock?

  Pink and black sheets?

• 3:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  I had pink and black, and then I also had pink, yellow, orange. They were striped. It was pink, yellow, orange, and green striped ones.

• 3:50Danielle LaRock?

  With the pink and black is a choice. It's a lot of colors.

• 3:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  They were two separate sheets. So like I would switch it out.

• 3:58Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  And then I had a white down comforter.

• 4:00Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know what it was in the early 2000s, but pink and black was all the rage.

• 4:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yeah, especially if you did zebra print and pink.

• 4:09Danielle LaRock?

  Don't even get me started. You don't even know what my, if you saw my prom dress.

• 4:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  I think I have seen it. I think you showed it to me.

• 4:17Danielle LaRock?

  It's crazy. It's like hot pink with inside the, like, there was like a cutout, so you could see the inside, and it was, was it that zebra print? Or maybe you had a zebra prince, like, sash or something. I don't know. I was wilding out.

• 4:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love that for you. I love your pink eras.

• 4:36Danielle LaRock?

  Well, that one should stay in the dark. But yeah, welcome everyone to National Park After Dark. I'm Danielle, the one that was funneling beer in basements, turn up.

• 4:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I'm Cassie, and I was definitely more of a fill a empty water bottle, fill of vodka all the way, almost to the top and throw in a splash of Sprite kinda girl.

• 4:59Danielle LaRock?

  And here we are, talking about history. Here we are to educate you. History. Isn't that weird and crazy?

• 5:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  You guys should believe us.

• 5:09Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I believe everything I'm about to tell you for the next hour.

• 5:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, we're role models.

• 5:14Danielle LaRock?

  Because it is true.

• 5:17Danielle LaRock?

  Everything I'm about to tell you is true, as far as I know. And this episode actually came about by way of our live stream a couple of months ago. So for everyone who is not aware, on our Patreon subscription, we do a live stream every month where we pick a different topic and do an hour of like just shooting the shit about it. And for, I think it was May, March, for the month of March, we each had to pick a location and pitch each other a trip. And I picked this national monument. It did not win. That's okay. But it's a winner now because we're gonna talk about it today.

• 6:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  And maybe it'll be a winner in the future if we decide to visit it anyway.

• 6:06Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, you tell me at the end of this if you're more or less interested in going.

• 6:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  I guess it depends if the guy actually gets punched by a ghost because that will definitely sway my opinion if I wanna go or not.

• 6:17Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, I'm gonna tell you right now, he, I don't think he did.

• 6:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, then I'm more open to it.

• 6:22Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, well, we are going to St. Augustine today for our episode. And St. Augustine is one of the oldest towns in all of America, built in 1565. It is a popular tourist destination today, but in the 1600s, after it was founded by the Spanish, it was pretty miserable. Hurricanes and high tides destroyed houses and polluted the wells they dug for drinking water. Colonists struggled To grow food in the heat while waves of yellow fever, smallpox, and other illnesses killed colonists each year. But for the Spanish crown, Saint Augustine was an important outpost for their conquest of the New World. With forces in Florida, they could defend their trade routes from South and Central America. They could spread the Catholic faith, and they could prevent the English from getting a foothold on the continent.

• 7:08Danielle LaRock?

  So it was a strategic location. So they built fortifications out of pine logs and aimed cannons at the sea, ready to shoot the British if they approached. However, the biggest enemy to these wooden forts was the climate. The logs rotted in the humid heat and sank into the sea, rarely lasting more than a decade. During the town's first one hundred years, they built and rebuilt this log fort nine separate times.

• 7:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow, that's dedication. I've been like, no, I'm good.

• 7:37Danielle LaRock?

  We're get- this fort is gonna stand, okay?

• 7:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's not. It's been built nine times. Let it be. Let it go.

• 7:44Danielle LaRock?

  Finally, in sixteen sixty-eight, a ship appeared in the distance. Townspeople believed it was a long overdue supply ship that was bringing them a few different things, but mainly flour, worth its weight in gold, since they were struggling to find food. And the harbor master rode out to greet them. However, as he climbed aboard, he discovered it was not their supply ship. It was British pirates. But without the harbor master's return, the town didn't know that. Under the cover of night, a hundred pirates paddled to shore and surged into town, guns blazing. The mayor and some of his men barely managed to escape to the wooden fort and barricaded themselves inside throughout the siege. The pirates plundered every building in town,

• 8:28Danielle LaRock?

  stealing silver, candles, and other valuables from the hospital and church. They also killed over sixty residents and took seventy as hostages for ransom, and captured free black and indigenous men to be sold as slaves. And much to the concern of the Spanish crown, as the pirates left, they took measurements of the harbor, making it abundantly clear that they planned to return and seize the city permanently. The wooden forts that kept falling apart would not be enough to defend them. So the following year, they received permission from the queen to build a permanent structure out of stone. Digging into the ground on nearby Anastasia Island, they carved out blocks of coquina,

• 9:09Danielle LaRock?

  a unique limestone made of millions of jumbled shelf fragments. And fun fact, this island is, which is very close by, the fort, is also the location of another national monument called Fort Matanzas. It is another fort constructed of coquina, but a major tragedy occurred there. Matanzas, meaning slaughter, reflects the 1565 massacre of 250 Frenchmen by the Spanish. The fort was built way after the massacre, likely right on top of the massacre site, but that's a story for another time, and I only mention it because it will come back in a little bit.

• 9:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, noted.

• 9:50Danielle LaRock?

  Over the next 23 years, a massive stone fort rose from the coast, built by native laborers, enslaved and free Africans, artisans, tradesmen, and even convicts. Finally, in 1695, the Castillo de San Marcos was completed. It came in at 50,000 square feet, laying relatively low to the ground in a star shape. At each corner, diamond-shaped bastions jut outward, giving the fort its geometric, symmetrical outline when viewed from above. The thick fort walls enclosed a large, open courtyard with grassy space bordered by arched rooms and storage areas built into the inner walls. Cannons were lined at the top level, along with watchtowers that provided sweeping views of the nearby water.

• 10:34Danielle LaRock?

  And now, more than 300 years later, it's still standing, the oldest fort in the United States. When visiting the Castillo, nearly every ghost hunter, professional or amateur, asks the same question, out loud to a camera or quietly to themselves: What secrets do these walls hold? And what unfolded here that causes so many people to feel such a terrible sense of dread and sadness? Turns out a whole hell of a lot, so let's get into it.

• 11:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's always cool to go into old buildings like this in the United States because I feel like, of course, there are really old places within the United States, but I feel like Europe gets to have all the fun with the forts and all of the really old battle. I don't like we have it, but just not as, as much.

• 11:27Danielle LaRock?

  Some of, some places have that feeling and I, I really love that we're kind of exploring this area in regards to looking back into American history because I think everybody's minds kind of collectively goes to New England when you think of old America or colonial America, I should say. But here, I mean, it predates the Constitution by what 200 years.

• 11:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Danielle LaRock?

  And I, it's just, it's cool to go somewhere else and to have a different perspective on.

• 12:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  And this place has a moat?

• 12:03Danielle LaRock?

  Oh yeah, it has a moat.

• 12:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  See, that's cool. Like, I feel like moats don't exist the way they should.

• 12:09Danielle LaRock?

  I know. Give, show me another moat.

• 12:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 12:11Danielle LaRock?

  In the United States.

• 12:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Where are the moats in the United States? That's the question.

• 12:15Danielle LaRock?

  Where have they gone?

• 12:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  When, will they come back?

• 12:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  I petition for more moats.

• 12:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yep.

• 12:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Does it have alligators in it?

• 12:25Danielle LaRock?

  No. Well, okay, I hate to tell you, it's, it is dried up now, but it did function.

• 12:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, that does defeat the purpose.

• 12:33Danielle LaRock?

  No, we, this, there is a purpose for our petition to bring it back.

• 12:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yes. Imagine how much better this place would be with an alligator filled moat.

• 12:42Danielle LaRock?

  Does it need alligators though? Like, I feel like.

• 12:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes. It's a form of defense against the enemies.

• 12:49Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. Well, you can take it up with the park service and it'll make it more authentic.

• 12:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, and more dangerous, more exciting.

• 12:57Danielle LaRock?

  You want people to visit your national parks? This is what you gotta do.

• 13:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, make it scary.

• 13:03Danielle LaRock?

  Today, the Castillo de San Marcos is a national monument managed by the Park Service. Since it was built over 300 years ago, it's been ruled by both the Spanish and the British, and briefly renamed by the United States. It witnessed the beginning and end of Spain's ambitions in North America, watched over an ocean patrolled by Nazi submarines, and held hundreds of Native Americans captive, prisoner, within its walls. If you visit today, it sits in the smack dab center of St. Augustine's bustling tourism industry, and some of its most famous ghost stories, including headless spirits and skeletons found in walls. In this episode, we'll explore the dark history of the fort and its role in three different chunks.

• 13:47Danielle LaRock?

  And at the end of each little section, we'll do some ghost stories along with it. So, hang with me. It's history and it haunts, it's both, it's the best of both worlds, you know?

• 14:03Danielle LaRock?

  Well, the first war dates back to where we left off earlier, in this ongoing fight for control between Spain and Britain. After having learned from the brutal pirate raid of 1668, Spanish St. Augustine now had some real defenses. The Castillo was surrounded by a moat.

• 14:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Thank God. They knew. They needed a moat.

• 14:28Danielle LaRock?

  It didn't say anything about animals patrolling the moat, but it did exist. And it had walls as thick as a car and stood about 25 feet tall. Atop the fort, dozens of cannons could fire on any approaching ship, and thanks to Florida's long sandy shorelines, it was hard for enemy ships with heavy cannons to make it within range without running aground. And it wasn't long until they got to put it-

• 14:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  And it wasn't long until they put the alligators in the moat.

• 14:55Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. It's like, and now it's done. There's the alligators. Okay, sorry. It wasn't long before they got to put it to the test. James Moore was the governor of Carolina in 1702, which was still a British colony at the time, when he decided to capture Saint Augustine. With eight ships and 800 men, he began bombarding the fort with cannons as his soldiers marched into town. Fearing for their lives, nearly all the people in town, which was about 1,500 people, fled for the safety of the Castillo, sheltering in safety amidst its walls. And the walls were holding strong. And because they were built from this coquina, like this material, it was a porous limestone

• 15:39Danielle LaRock?

  that literally looks like millions of little tiny seashells all cemented together in these like cement-like bricks. When the cannonballs hit the fort, rather than shattering the rock walls, they kind of just embedded themselves and got absorbed into the walls. So much so, and of course, the walls stayed sturdy, but they kind of absorbed them in this way. I just kind of picture someone just catching a dodgeball like right in front of them. The Spanish just grabbed the cannonballs from the walls and fired them back.

• 16:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, shit.

• 16:14Danielle LaRock?

  They're like, oh, thanks.

• 16:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  Reverse.

• 16:17Danielle LaRock?

  Reverse, reverse. Ultimately, while Governor Moore had more men, he was outgunned. And after a 51-day siege, he was driven out by Spanish reinforcements.

• 16:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, 51 days is a long time to be shooting cannons back and forth at each other.

• 16:32Danielle LaRock?

  And the people are all in there. All the town is just in there.

• 16:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Waiting it out, hoping, yeah.

• 16:39Danielle LaRock?

  And as a consolation prize, on his way out, you know, he's forced out, he just burned the city to the ground.

• 16:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  He's like, bye.

• 16:48Danielle LaRock?

  Have fun rebuilding this entire town. As the town rebuilt, much like last time, they decided they needed even more defenses, building additional defenses around not only the fort, but the entire town. And they sought to bring in more soldiers.

• 17:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Moats, moats everywhere.

• 17:05Danielle LaRock?

  They're sticking with just one, I think. Rather than sending for reinforcements from other Spanish outposts, they tried something new, something that could meet their need for soldiers while undermining the British. Spain promised that any person enslaved in the British colonies could be free in Florida. Anyone who reached Saint Augustine and converted to Catholicism would be granted their freedom.

• 17:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Is it freedom if you have to switch to another religion?

• 17:34Danielle LaRock?

  I feel like the answer to that is no, but a lot of people, that's a sacrifice they were willing to make. They're like, if that's what we need to do to not be enslaved, sure.

• 17:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 17:47Danielle LaRock?

  So, as word of this promise spread north, enslaved men, women, and children sought their freedom. Carpenters, laborers, and housekeepers risked everything to flee. Many snuck away under the cover of night, some stole canoes, and as they arrived in Saint Augustine, many eagerly asked to be baptized. Enough people made their way that the governor decided to start a free black militia and build a new fort. Two miles north of town, these newly free men and women built and staffed Fort Mose. Made of logs, it was smaller than the Castillo, but nonetheless served as a very important line of defense and early warning system. And it was also the first free black settlement in North America. Families

• 18:32Danielle LaRock?

  who would have been broken apart by the slave trade now earned wages, built a community of their own, and forged connections with the residents of Saint Augustine, and they maintain a rigorous military regimen, vowing to defend the town from those who'd robbed them of their freedom. And in 1740, they got their chance. A British general outraged by Spain's sanctuary policy for enslaved people attacked Saint Augustine and captured Fort Mose, whose residents had been evacuated to the Castillo. And like the last British attack, ships fired cannons at the fort, laying siege to the fort for almost a month. Food and water ran low for the people seeking shelter inside, but the black militia planned

• 19:14Danielle LaRock?

  a counterattack. In a battle called Bloody Mose, they retook their fort by force and robbed the Brits of their foothold on the land. Unable to break through the fort's walls and forced onto their ships in the harbor, the British retreated. And those are just a few of the many battles over control of St. Augustine. There's actually about 15 of them in total and a couple of different sieges. And in all of the years of the fighting, all of the different battles and all that, no one ever captured the Castillo by force. It's strong AF.

• 19:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  How strong, yeah.

• 19:51Danielle LaRock?

  But in the coming years, it would change hands three times through diplomacy. Spain granted Florida to the British in 1763 after losing a war. And for the people of St. Augustine and Fort Mose, British rule was a death sentence. They revoked the sanctuary slave policy and promised to eradicate Catholicism, so more of the townspeople chose to leave. Over 3,000 residents fled for Cuba, leaving behind a pretty empty town. It didn't matter much to the British, who renamed the fort to Castle of Saint Mark. Although, as they started renovations, which included second floors and repairing defenses, they wound up in a new war, which is the American Revolution.

• 20:32Danielle LaRock?

  The Castillo became a headquarters for British troops, a storehouse for weapons and ammo, and a prison for American revolutionaries. In the damp walls of the fort and nearby buildings, they detained troublesome American patriots, including three signers of the Declaration of Independence. In the sweltering heat on July 4th, 1781, the captives Edward Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, and Thomas Hayward Jr., all from South Carolina, captured during the fall of Charleston and held as prisoners of war in the Castillo, celebrated Independence Day. This perhaps was a sign of things to come. Britain lost the Revolutionary War and returned Florida to Spain as part of their peace treaty. Many Spanish, free Black, and immigrant residents returned to St. Augustine,

• 21:17Danielle LaRock?

  but the town did not feel as stable as it once did. The Spanish government was racked with war debts and funds to maintain and expand the town, were regularly delayed, allowing things to fall into disrepair. And on top of that, the new and restless nation to the north had set its sights on Florida. The United States began leading raids into Florida, attacking Seminole villages and free black settlements. Some of this was driven by plantation owners, who were outraged that Spain offered refuge to slaves, but many Americans were simply just hungry to expand the nation. All of this to say, Florida was proving to be a liability to the Spanish crown, who ultimately chose to turn it over to the United States.

• 22:01Danielle LaRock?

  So that was like, a very quick speed through of how Florida became ours.

• 22:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 22:09Danielle LaRock?

  I hope everyone has made it through that.

• 22:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  And now I can't imagine Florida not part of the United States.

• 22:17Danielle LaRock?

  I know, I know. Even though it's its own little world.

• 22:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  For sure.

• 22:23Danielle LaRock?

  It's nice that it's part of our world.

• 22:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  It is interesting hearing that history, though, because whenever you hear about the enslavement of people in the South, you always hear of them heading north. And to hear about this part of history where they actually went south is really another cool part of it.

• 22:40Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and St. Augustine, I mean, it's been through it. We're not even in.

• 22:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Have you ever been there?

• 22:47Danielle LaRock?

  No, I haven't.

• 22:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Neither, yeah.

• 22:50Danielle LaRock?

  And that's why I pitched it for our trip.

• 22:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  We should go.

• 22:55Danielle LaRock?

  We should go.

• 22:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm cold. It seems warm there. It snowed at my house today.

• 23:02Danielle LaRock?

  When does it not snow? House.

• 23:06Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so St. Augustine has been through it. And by this point in time, Florida is now part of the United States, and that happened in 1821. The US wasn't even 50 years old, but St. Augustine was already 256. The fort standing watch above the town was 120 years old. So it's no surprise that some claim to have found ghosts within its walls, quite literally. The most prominent ghost story from this time is often referred to as "The Lovers", and it begins with an American engineer. At the time, Americans had given the fort a shiny new name, Fort Marion, but the fort itself was in disrepair. I mean, this is when the, everything has gone to crap.

• 23:50Danielle LaRock?

  And the fort has seen better days.

• 23:55Danielle LaRock?

  So engineers were brought in to fix it up and one engineer was at work in the dungeons when he broke through a wall. As the stone crumbled away, darkness opened up in front of him. A hidden room. My dream. I want to find a hidden room behind a crumbling wall. So fucking bad. So bad. From the darkness poured the powerful, sweet smell of perfume. The engineer crouched down and inched his way into the cramped space. And when he looked up, to his horror, found two skeletons chained to the wall. One of the skeletons, as the story goes, belonged to Dolores Martí. Dolores was the wife of a Spanish Colonel who was stationed

• 24:37Danielle LaRock?

  at the fort in 1784, right after the British had returned Florida to Spain. Her husband, Colonel García Martí, was sort of a guy that believed himself to be really important. He was always busy, came off to others. It was kind of like a bummer. He didn't have a sense of humor. You know, he just was like

• 24:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Too serious.

• 24:57Danielle LaRock?

  Very serious. Dolores, meanwhile, while she was married to him, found a much younger, much nicer guy in town and grew quite close with him.

• 25:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, scandalous.

• 25:11Danielle LaRock?

  Even more scandalous, that guy happened to be Captain Manuel, who was her husband's assistant.

• 25:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Hmm, it's a reverse. Usually it's like the opposites. The husband with the assistant and now it's the wife with the assistant.

• 25:29Danielle LaRock?

  Well, her husband found out about their affair after smelling the scent of his wife's perfume on his assistant's uniform.

• 25:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, no.

• 25:42Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, no.

• 25:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  And what year is this?

• 25:46Danielle LaRock?

  This is in the 1800s.

• 25:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yeah. So I feel like people were a little smelly back then. So I feel like you would recognize a perfume more.

• 25:54Danielle LaRock?

  I really want to know when perfume hit the market.

• 25:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  I feel like it was a rich people thing for a while because soap wasn't even really a thing.

• 26:04Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, cuz Is it an old wives tale that, or is this founded in truth that the tradition of a bride and bridesmaids carrying flowers is to conceal, to cover the body, their body odor?

• 26:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes, there's something about that. I thought it was something worse than that, though. I thought it was like from some of the diseases that were going around back then that were like decaying their flesh. Like, I thought it was something rooted and something darker than that. But I feel like I have to look it up now.

• 26:35Danielle LaRock?

  I thought it was just like the floral scent was supposed to mask their body odor because they smelled.

• 26:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, well, first perfume originated over 4,000 years ago.

• 26:47Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, yeah, duh. We learned that in Egypt.

• 26:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it says in Egypt where resins in woods were burned to honor the gods. Oh, it was when the plague was happening. In the 1800s, people used strong floral scents, principally lavender, rose, rosemary, and carnation to cover the stench of illness, used in both bouquets and as shown to mask the scent of death and disease.

• 27:16Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, is that where potpourri came about?

• 27:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Maybe.

• 27:20Danielle LaRock?

  I remember my grandmother had potpourri all the time and it made me, it gave me a headache.

• 27:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  My grandmother had it too. It was always, I remember she had it in a little basket behind the toilet.

• 27:30Danielle LaRock?

  Yes, it was always in the bathroom.

• 27:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  And it'd be like little flower petals.

• 27:37Danielle LaRock?

  But it wasn't natural. There was something about it that was artificial, right?

• 27:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  I think so.

• 27:44Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know, whatever.

• 27:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  I have a vivid memory of grabbing them and throwing them all over the bathroom as a kid.

• 27:49Danielle LaRock?

  Why? You'd make a good flower girl.

• 27:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  I was like that. No one ever invited me, which was sad.

• 27:57Danielle LaRock?

  Um, where am I? Oh, yes. Okay, so.

• 28:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yeah, we're telling a story.

• 28:02Danielle LaRock?

  I am telling, I'm trying to tell a story. That may or may not be true. Um, so yeah, she is, the whole thing is kind of the cat's out of the bag. The husband smells her perfume on his assistant, but instead of, he's sneaky, sneaky. Instead of just kind of confronting them right away about it, he decided to plot in silence.

• 28:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh.

• 28:30Danielle LaRock?

  Soon, his wife and the young captain went missing and Colonel Marty offered several different explanations for their absence. A secret mission to Cuba, or that his wife had fallen ill and was sent to Mexico to recover. It sounded fishy to people, but nobody suspected the horrifying truth that Colonel Marty had chained his wife and the young captain in a secret dungeon and closed off the room with a false wall. And 40 years later, the engineer discovered them.

• 29:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Whoa, that is really disturbing.

• 29:05Danielle LaRock?

  Callous.

• 29:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, to just throw them away behind a wall with nothing there and never turn back and just know that they're.

• 29:16Danielle LaRock?

  Looking back on the story of the lovers now, of course, historians are quick to poke holes in the tale. And I'm telling you, this is on like every ghost hunting tour, every paranormal website, anything you Google about this monument, this story is perpetuated. But Dolores, Colonel Marty and Captain Manuel do not appear in any surviving records of the fort. The supposed secret dungeon had been used to store ammunition and even trash, but there's no record of skeletons, no formal record of skeletal remains ever being found within there. And finally, the idea of people being sealed into false rooms was a very

• 29:57Danielle LaRock?

  popular literary trope when the story first came about. Edgar Allan Poe alone wrote multiple stories that used the premise. However, I would like to also offer a counter to that because if you do remember our visit to the Tower of London and the story of the princes that we heard while we were there. Do you happen to recall that?

• 30:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  No.

• 30:23Danielle LaRock?

  I'll remind you, in 1674, workmen at the Tower of London discovered a wooden box containing two small skeletons buried under a staircase in the White Tower, often associated with the 1483 disappearance of 12-year-old King Edward V and his nine-year-old brother, Richard, Duke of York. The princes locked away by their uncle the third vanished from sight, spawning a centuries-old murder mystery. So do you remember the uncle kept those two kids locked away?

• 30:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  I do vaguely remember this.

• 30:55Danielle LaRock?

  And then all of a sudden, they're actually gone and no one knew what happened, even though they had suspicions that their uncle murdered them, but no one could ever find anything. And then their bodies 200 years later are found bricked up in a wall.

• 31:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes, I do. And then I remember there were rumors of hauntings where they would hear children's footsteps like across. Yeah, I do remember that now that you say it.

• 31:19Danielle LaRock?

  So that's my counter. Like, it has happened. So maybe it did. Who knows? Who am I to say? But maybe you can find out yourself.

• 31:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Is there a record of how she died?

• 31:31Danielle LaRock?

  There's no record of them, anybody by that name.

• 31:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  Existing in general. Oh, okay.

• 31:36Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. But, I mean, who knows?

• 31:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  I believe it.

• 31:41Danielle LaRock?

  You should believe it. I have a degree in history, and I'm telling you.

• 31:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  Last Christmas, Al bought me a record player, and since then, I've gotten really into collecting records. But I also wanted the whole setup to look beautiful in our home. So when I saw the Jocuna vinyl media unit from Article, I knew exactly where it was going. And when it arrived, I was really impressed with the quality. And it's one of those pieces that's just as functional as it is nice to look at. That's really what Article does so well. They make it easy to create a stylish home with high-quality furniture at a really great price. Their collection includes everything from sofas and sectionals to dining tables, chairs, bedroom furniture, storage, outdoor pieces, and decor with a lot of mid-century modern coastal and Scandi-inspired designs. And everything is curated to work together.

• 32:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  You can mix and match pieces without feeling like you need to be an interior designer to make your home feel cohesive. If you do want some help, Article even offers free interior design services and their customer care team is available seven days a week. They also offer fast, affordable shipping across the US and Canada, professional assembly options, and a 30-day satisfaction guarantee so you can feel confident ordering furniture online. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/NPAD and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout. That's article.com/NPAD for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 33:13Danielle LaRock?

  When I first got my banking cards as a young adult, I wished more than anything I could customize them, maybe plaster my favorite things on them, like my dog's faces or the Titanic. And even though I can't put the Titanic on my Cash App card, they do something arguably better. Cash App does more than you think when it comes to having your back and making sure your money stays your money. Cash App just released a new status program for the way people actually spend called Cash App Green. Now, when you spend at least $500 a month with a Cash App card, you earn green status, which unlocks benefits like up to $200 of free overdraft coverage. If you overdraft unexpectedly, there are no hidden fees. You also unlock higher borrow limits and custom personalized

• 33:55Danielle LaRock?

  cash back offers every Friday at places you love to shop. Turn everyday spending into status with Cash App Green. Download Cash App today or visit cash.app to learn more about this and other financial benefits. New Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use Cash App 10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. Visit our link in bio.

• 34:24Danielle LaRock?

  If you visit the Castillo yourself, you can crawl into the space and decide on your own. So, go in, check out the vibes, report back. And the next chapter of our story leaves the Spanish era behind and marks the end of open combat at the Castillo. Under American control, the fort's cannons were never fired and no assaults were launched upon its walls. But despite that, the fort played a surprising role in a long, painful conflict that stretched across the country, the so-called Indian Wars. And this is another part, just kind of like you said, when you think of the history of slavery in the United States, you think one story is true. You know, people from the South fled to the North.

• 35:09Danielle LaRock?

  And this is a portion of this episode that I find particularly fascinating because when you think of the quote-unquote "Indian Wars," you think of everything happening on the Western plains.

• 35:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:24Danielle LaRock?

  And this is very different, but it's connected.

• 35:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Interesting.

• 35:28Danielle LaRock?

  So if you tour the fort today, one of the rooms that stands out is a space where indigenous men and women were held captive. After being shipped on trains all the way from Arizona, several prisoners carved art into the stone walls that you can still see today. In the first 50 years after the Revolutionary War, the US population grew from roughly 2 to 12 million people, and the newly acquired Florida Territory promised rich farmland and ample room to expand. Cotton planters and politicians were eager to get a foothold in the region, but there was just one problem, and that was the indigenous Seminole people. In 1800, the Seminole people were a large and successful indigenous culture in northern Florida.

• 36:11Danielle LaRock?

  Numbering in the thousands, they built towns, raised cattle, and had stayed on good terms with both the Spanish and the British. But the Americans were a different story. Much like the Spanish had, the Seminole people welcomed escaped slaves into their communities, and when slave catchers demanded their return, the Seminoles would refuse. Known as Black Seminoles, many free black people married into the Seminole tribe and had children. This outraged southern slaveholders. Future President Andrew Jackson, then an army general, led multiple attacks on the Seminoles as a result in what he called "A mission to recover stolen slaves."

• 36:52Danielle LaRock?

  Ultimately, it was conflicts over treaties that led the Seminoles and United States into open war. The US had attempted to settle things by promising the Seminoles a small reservation in Florida, opening the rest of the territory to settlement. But 10 years later, the US put forth another treaty, which promised the Seminoles land in modern day Oklahoma if they agreed to leave Florida.

• 37:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  What a shitty trade. No offense to Oklahoma, but I mean, you're in Florida, living off the land there, you know this region. And then they're offering you a space somewhere that is absolutely nothing like that landscape.

• 37:33Danielle LaRock?

  Well, and it's so typical of the story that unfolds of like, "Here's your initial treaty. You can move to this, this smaller space over here in your, in your homelands." Actually, just kidding, you, you gotta go entirely.

• 37:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, we're gonna send you way over here, actually, in a place that I'm sure they deemed worthless.

• 37:55Danielle LaRock?

  Just unfamiliar, you know, clearly there were other indigenous nations that lived and thrived in Oklahoma, but the point is not there.

• 38:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  The people who were sending them had deemed that land worthless, is what I meant.

• 38:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, totally. And many of the Seminole people did leave in what would become known as the Trail of Tears. Others stayed, ready to fight, including the famous Seminole leader Osceola. The army had 30,000 troops, while the Seminoles, by some counts, had just 3,000 warriors. But the Seminoles knew Florida. They could emerge from the sawgrass and cypress swamps to ambush US forces, and just as soon as they appeared, would retreat again. The Seminole leader Osceola became a household name and a nationwide symbol of resistance. emerged of him driving a knife into the treaty proclaiming he would never sign it.

• 38:47Danielle LaRock?

  And he led warriors on several occasions that defeated US forces, once even while wearing a US Army coat. After several years of this expensive and embarrassing conflict, the US Army had begun to worry that they wouldn't win a traditional war and came up with a different plan. They had successfully captured an elderly Seminole chief named King Philip. The son of that chief, named Wildcat, served with Osceola. Under a banner of truce, Osceola and Wildcat met with the army to negotiate the release of the chief when the army commander had them surrounded, chained, and marched to Saint Augustine. In what was widely seen as a treacherous act,

• 39:29Danielle LaRock?

  the US government hoped to take down the Seminole leadership and imprisoned Osceola, Wildcat, and numerous others in the Castillo de San Marcos. By then, the fort was seen as a historic relic, and it was in an extraordinary state of disrepair. But the army believed that if it was built to keep people out, it would be just as effective at keeping people in. The Seminole warriors were thrown into a damp cell and left alone. Wildcat was outraged at the betrayal, but as the days wore on, he grew convinced that the walls were not as impenetrable as they seemed. The only source of light in the room was through a small hole in the wall, about eight inches wide,

• 40:11Danielle LaRock?

  eighteen feet off the ground, and covered by iron bars, and he hatched a plan. Over the course of five days, he and around twenty others went without food and took medicinal routes to lose as much weight as possible. They shredded blankets and bags in the room and tied them into makeshift ropes, and under the light of a new moon, they pried the iron bars off of the small opening and wiggled through. One by one, almost twenty of them squeezed through the small opening, rappelled down the fort wall and into the surrounding moat and escaped into the wilds of Florida, heading back to their people. It would be another twelve hours before the Americans discovered the jail Jailbreak, although the cell was not completely empty.

• 40:56Danielle LaRock?

  As Wildcat put his escape plan into motion, Osceola refused to leave, stating that he had done nothing to be ashamed of. He believed that the US government would be forced to negotiate fairly after they betrayed a flag of truce. Which is just like, it, it just breaks my heart, you know?

• 41:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, just believing that they're gonna act in good conscience.

• 41:19Danielle LaRock?

  Mm-hmm, even after.

• 41:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Everything they've already done.

• 41:23Danielle LaRock?

  Right. So while Wildcat slipped through the window, Osceola stayed, and in fact, he was the one that eventually informed the army of the escape. I think he waited, you know, the 12 hours. So he knew that they were. He was like, yeah, by the way, you stupid idiots.

• 41:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, I'm the only one left.

• 41:43Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Danielle LaRock?

  Embarrassed by the jailbreak, the army moved Osceola and the remaining Seminole captors out of Florida and into South Carolina. But after three months in captivity, Osceola fell gravely ill. Faced with malaria and a throat infection, Osceola died before the army attempted negotiation like he had hoped. In newspapers around the world, he died a martyr to the cause of indigenous resistance. And his death did not put an end to the Seminole Wars, which lasted another four years. And this is messed up. I mean, that was messed up, but this next part is messed up. But it has, like, there's a ghost story that is attached to what happens next.

• 42:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, okay.

• 42:27Danielle LaRock?

  In a sinister twist to the story, perhaps the greatest betrayal Osceola suffered at the hands of the United States was not by an army general, but by an army doctor. Dr. Frederick Whedon was a physician at Fort Marion, AKA the Castillo. He tended to Osceola's declining health during his captivity, and the Seminole leader viewed Whedon as his best friend amongst the white people.

• 42:53Danielle LaRock?

  Before he died, he even gifted Whedon several of his belongings, including an intricate brass pipe. But after Whedon pronounced Osceola dead, he cut off his head and took it home. Years later, Whedon's children told stories about his father and Osceola's head. If they ever misbehaved, their dad would hang Osceola's head from their bedposts while they slept as punishment.

• 43:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Ew, what a sick freak.

• 43:19Danielle LaRock?

  None of his children or his grandchildren claimed to know why exactly Whedon took Osceola's head, but doctors at the time did have a habit of preserving the heads of indigenous people around the world, arguing with total BS science that skull shapes explained why some races were smarter than others.

• 43:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, but why would you need to take that home?

• 43:41Danielle LaRock?

  And why would you need to torture your children?

• 43:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  If that's what you were studying.

• 43:46Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 43:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Danielle LaRock?

  Well, whatever, whatever his reasoning was, a letter reveals that he actually gave the head to a fellow doctor in New York after five years. And the recipient wrote that he would keep it in his private library, basically saying that if it was in a museum somewhere, it would probably be stolen because of everyone knew who Osceola was, and it would have been highly sought after.

• 44:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Right.

• 44:14Danielle LaRock?

  But 20 years later, that doctor's personal collection burned down in a fire and Osceola's head was lost to time and probably was engulfed in the flames.

• 44:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Good. It shouldn't be on display somewhere either. That's horrific.

• 44:27Danielle LaRock?

  Isn't that just fucked up?

• 44:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, that's so fucked up. That's so dehumanizing to be able to do that and not see a person that you just did that to.

• 44:39Danielle LaRock?

  Right. And the ghost story that I, that is attached to this is a lot of people claim that they see the, like this disembodied, like this head, this floating head.

• 44:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, interesting.

• 44:53Danielle LaRock?

  Around the premises. Kind of like, you know, sometimes people see an apparition that doesn't have legs or something.

• 45:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  In South Carolina or in Florida?

• 45:02Danielle LaRock?

  In Florida.

• 45:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 45:03Danielle LaRock?

  Not where he died. In the Castillo itself.

• 45:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 45:08Danielle LaRock?

  But going, so going back to the Castillo, it makes sense to some degree that the fort in St. Augustine would be used to house prisoners of the Seminole War. After all, it did happen in Florida. But over the next 50 years, the fort would continue to be used as a prison for Native people, even as the Indian Wars marched westward across the western frontier. After the end of the Civil War, the US Army found themselves fighting with tribes across the Great Plains, including the Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa, Cotto, and Comanche people, different tribes from the Plains who shared cultural connections to bison, who were a key source of food. The conflict between them and the US government, later called the Buffalo Wars, emerged from

• 45:51Danielle LaRock?

  a familiar pattern of violence, treaties, and broken promises, and most people from those tribes were coerced onto reservations in Oklahoma. But for the purpose of our story, the Army singled out 74 Plains people as threats, individuals, warriors, leaders, and alleged criminals that the Army argued would inspire future resistance. So their solution was to ship them all to St. Augustine to be imprisoned in the Castillo. Suddenly, these men, who had spent their entire lives on the northern plains, were taken from their families, packed onto a train in shackles, and shipped 1,000 miles away to hot, muggy Florida at the very start of summer.

• 46:33Danielle LaRock?

  The change was bewildering and traumatizing, and several men attempted suicide. Amidst the damp and decaying fort, illness spread quickly, prisoners came down with stomach ailments and heat exhaustion, and many more died of tuberculosis. But despite the losses, Army Lieutenant Henry Pratt was optimistic. Pratt was in charge of the captives, and he believed he could transform the prisoners into civilized men, launching an experiment that would guide how the entire American government treated Native people for the next 100 years. To get started, Pratt released the captives from their shackles, had them cut their hair, and started training them as Army soldiers.

• 47:16Danielle LaRock?

  Everyone was issued a uniform, participated in daily drills, maintained their barracks, cooked, performed guard duty, repaired the fort, and went to church on Sunday. A Cheyenne warrior named Making Medicine was appointed as sergeant, and a young Kiowa man named Boy Hunting was made quartermaster. Over the next three years, the surviving captors made the most of their lives in prison, and by adhering to Pratt's military training, they were granted freedom to leave the fort and move about town. Nicknamed the Florida Boys, the warriors became local celebrities, entrepreneurs, and performers. They made bows, canes, and various souvenirs that they sold in town for a profit, and sent much of that money back to their families on reservations in Oklahoma.

• 48:00Danielle LaRock?

  They performed traditional dances, horseback riding, mock buffalo hunts, and even bullfighting, drawing audiences of thousands to watch them perform. Pratt was normally against that type of thing because his goal of all of this with the military training was essentially to turn the Kiowa and Cheyenne warriors into Americans. But they helped bring in money, something that Pratt's bosses were reluctant to send him for his experiment. And he hoped that by making money and going into the community, they would be more interested in his next goal: English language education. Pratt recruited local volunteer teachers to provide daily instruction in English, math, and Christianity, and many of the prisoners embraced the lessons.

• 48:43Danielle LaRock?

  Making Medicine, the Cheyenne sergeant, spoke with pride about their educations, writing that he had a strong desire to learn about Christianity, which he called "the Great Spirit's Road", and saying in a letter that he sent back home, "We feel happy to have learned so much that we can teach our children." In a letter he received back from his wife, who communicated with only drawings, he learned that his oldest child had taken their first steps. Pratt viewed this as progress towards his ultimate goal of assimilating native people, which he described in a now infamous phrase, "Kill the Indian, save the man." But while the Plains Indian captives at the Castillo accepted the terms of their imprisonment, they kept their own cultures alive too.

• 49:29Danielle LaRock?

  Even if it was quietly. When they prayed to Jesus on Sunday service, it was in their own language, not in English. They wore moccasins when they were off duty and they made art. A Kiowa man named Woha, or Wolfrobe, became a prolific colored pencil artist, drawing intricate and insightful scenes that spoke to his life at the crossroads between two cultures. In one famous self-portrait, he stands between a buffalo and a spotted cow, a teepee and a farm, his old life and the new. He holds his arms wide open to each of them. Above his head, he wrote his name in English, "Woha." After three years in St. Augustine, the captives were given a choice.

• 50:11Danielle LaRock?

  Continue their Western education or return to Oklahoma. Many went home, but several opted to continue in school. Some, like making medicine, even went on to become deacons of the Episcopal Church. As for Lieutenant Pratt, he used his experiment with the Florida Boys to start the Carlisle Indian School, which removed Native children from their families, took them to Pennsylvania, and taught them in ways of English, math, and Christianity, a model that spread through hundreds of similar boarding schools in the following century, carrying his motto, "Kill the Indian, save the man." So, all those indigenous schools have roots here.

• 50:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  To, starting here.

• 50:57Danielle LaRock?

  I never knew a mention of this before.

• 51:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Me either. So sad and so interesting.

• 51:05Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and if you want to know more about this particular chapter of the Castillo's history, there's an awesome book. It's called War Dance at Fort Marion by Brad Lookingbill, and it tells this, obviously, in much greater detail, and it actually uses a lot of primary resource material, like the accounts of many indigenous peoples that were held captive here during this time.

• 51:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Gotcha.

• 51:33Danielle LaRock?

  So, um, yeah, if you want to know more about the Florida Boys and that entire thing,

• 51:40Danielle LaRock?

  turn there. And the Florida Boys were not the last Native people held prisoner in Fort Marion. Ten years later, over 500 Chiricahua Apache men, women, and children were brought to St. Augustine from Arizona, crammed into a fort that was meant to house no more than 150. They were made to perform labor at a nearby lighthouse and to take lessons in English, math, and Christianity. However, outsiders noticed and began to protest the horrible conditions that the Apache prisoners faced, and after a year, they were relocated to Oklahoma.

• 52:14Danielle LaRock?

  But before they left, one prisoner carved art into its walls, the image of an Apache fire dancer. And today, the faint outlines of this proud figure in a sash and a headdress can still be seen on the walls. It's really faint, but it's one of the only visible reminders of the fort's role in the Indian wars. And I'll post a picture of it.

• 52:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  And you can go see that now?

• 52:37Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it is super faint, but it's side by side with the, with the drawing of what it did look like. So it kind of, you know,

• 52:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  So you can envision what it, what it once was?

• 52:49Danielle LaRock?

  And again, I didn't know, like, I didn't know anything about the fort's role in this. I just, for some reason, my brain just always goes to the Spanish here and military operations.

• 53:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, fighting wars and not that this is kind of in its own, but I see what you mean. Forts and this, you don't really think about as much.

• 53:12Danielle LaRock?

  The history of the Indian wars is long and painful, but to end with the ghosts, of course. Many in St. Augustine claim to have witnessed tall spectral figures pacing the courtyard where the Florida Boys and the Apache were held captive. Like I said, a headless Seminole warrior dressed in buckskin clothing drifting by prison cells or just the head on its own. On the anniversary of Osceola's capture, some have claimed to hear rattling chains and the disembodied voices speaking in Muskogee. There are popular and provocative ghost stories, yet for the descendants of the Kiowa, Comanche, Arapaho, Amanche, Seminole, Cato, and Cheyenne people, it is not enough to keep these spirits such

• 53:55Danielle LaRock?

  as they are in the dark. In recent years, the National Park Service has invited descendants of each affected tribe to come to the monument and share how this part of history and this chapter at the Castillo has affected their people and affected their lives. And they have talks discussing how

• 54:19Danielle LaRock?

  We can best honor their memory in the present and not just make them like a spooky ghost story, um, or forget about it altogether. And I'll link just one example of them in the show notes. If you want to watch, it's just a recording of one of, I want to say he was Cheyenne. Um, and he was speaking about, it's like a presentation that you can watch.

• 54:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's super cool.

• 54:45Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  When you've been talking about this, I don't know if there is any connection at all, but I just keep thinking of the mountains in northern New Hampshire that are Mount Osceola and there's like north and south.

• 54:57Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. So I don't know if there's any connection here to this particular person that you're talking about, or maybe another person, but that's all I could think about was the 4,000 footers that are, that are named.

• 55:10Danielle LaRock?

  I have a really cute picture of blue on top of Mount Osceola.

• 55:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, really?

• 55:14Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 55:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cause there's two, right? There's north and south.

• 55:18Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know.

• 55:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  I think is what they're called. I've done one of them.

• 55:21Danielle LaRock?

  Uh huh.

• 55:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  It is.

• 55:24Danielle LaRock?

  In the same, one in the same.

• 55:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow. That's really cool.

• 55:29Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. The mountain honors the Seminole leader Osceola known for his leadership in Florida.

• 55:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cool. Are there two of them or am I?

• 55:37Danielle LaRock?

  I think, I don't know. I don't know what you're thinking of. I think it's only one.

• 55:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  There's like north and south or little and big or something.

• 55:45Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, Mount Osceola and its neighboring peak, East Osceola.

• 55:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay. I'm like, I know there's two of them because I remember specifically being up there and being like, I gotta hit the other one while I'm up here to get the, the two.

• 55:59Danielle LaRock?

  Cool. Yeah. Good call. I didn't even connect that. Interesting.

• 56:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  There's a lot of indigenous names. That would be something that would be interesting to maybe do later down the line would be a New England indigenous name.

• 56:12Danielle LaRock?

  Well, it's just so interesting because I know he was, his story spread far and wide. Everyone in the country knew who Osceola was at one point in time.

• 56:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:23Danielle LaRock?

  So maybe that's why it's, he's named that. But I mean, it's a Florida, the Seminoles were in Florida. So to have a peak in New Hampshire where there are many other different indigenous nations and leaders. You know what I mean? It's like, why is he?

• 56:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I'd be curious to know. There's just, there's so many and there's so many things that are named after indigenous people or groups or whatever and throughout New England that I've kind of seen my whole life. I mean, you look at New Hampshire, Lake Winnipesaukee is definitely indigenous. You know, there's so many and

• 56:59Danielle LaRock?

  Well, even Nashua.

• 57:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Nashua, yeah. And I remember, and I cannot say the name for my life, so I'm not even gonna try. But in Massachusetts, near where my dad is, there is a lake and it's called Lake Chugga something. And it's literally like a 25 letter word. And it takes up, I remember seeing it because the name takes up an entire bridge. And it's definitely indigenous, you know, so there's names all over New England that have indigenous roots. And of course, there's indigenous roots all over the United States and New England, but I'd be so curious to learn more about.

• 57:38Danielle LaRock?

  I would love to, for you to tell me.

• 57:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  I just, it's hard to link it to a national park, but they are outdoor based, so.

• 57:46Danielle LaRock?

  People are gonna be like, we, I don't know how many times I have to tell you.

• 57:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  We don't care. I care.

• 57:58Danielle LaRock?

  Well, finally, we arrive at the third section, third section of three for our episode today, and the final era of the fort's history, World War II, and the fort's transition from being a military installation into a tourist destination. And if the first two stories have been very history coded, this one is more like spy, international spy.

• 58:25Danielle LaRock?

  By the 20th century, the Castillo had outlived its usefulness as a military outpost. Cannons would no longer be effective against modern battleships and the aging structure needed constant upkeep. A local oil tycoon named Henry Flagler had poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the town of St. Augustine, building new railroad lines and lavish hotels to turn the town into a premier tourist destination.

• 58:50Danielle LaRock?

  The War Department began offering guided tours of the old fort to visitors, and it proved popular enough that after the National Park Service was established in 1916, the War Department transferred the fort into its care. Under the National Park Service, it would become a national monument and preserve the history of an early Spanish colony in America. Yet despite the fort's new designation as a place of tourism, war found its way once again to Florida's shores. In 1939, Hitler's Germany invaded Poland and World War II erupted across Europe. President Franklin D. Roosevelt supported the Allies from a distance but was at least publicly intent on keeping America out of the war.

• 59:31Danielle LaRock?

  In St. Augustine, people were partying, dancing to swift music on the radio, lounging on beaches.

• 59:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Taylor Swift?

• 59:37Danielle LaRock?

  What?

• 59:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  You said dancing to swift music.

• 59:41Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, I meant to say swing music.

• 59:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  You said swift. I'm like, T-Swift? What are you doing back here?

• 59:48Danielle LaRock?

  Dancing to swift music. It's just kind of like, I don't know, again, people in Florida are always kind of, I remember visiting, I was in Florida in the early days of the pandemic.

• 59:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:59Danielle LaRock?

  People did not give a fuck about the pandemic in Florida.

• 1:00:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  I remember seeing it all over like TV too. It's like, hunker down in Florida is like, we're out here, we're, what are you talking about?

• 1:00:12Danielle LaRock?

  Not only were people in public, people were in clubs.

• 1:00:17Danielle LaRock?

  Grinding like it was 2006 with not a, I didn't see a mask in sight.

• 1:00:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  L-I-V-I-N.

• 1:00:26Danielle LaRock?

  They were like, if we die, we die. And it was a crazy energy.

• 1:00:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  That was crazy.

• 1:00:33Danielle LaRock?

  So kind of like that, back at this time, they're kind of like in this bubble almost, like the war is brewing, things are getting really serious and they're just tanning on the beach and L-I-V-I-N. But trouble was brewing offshore. Months before Pearl Harbor, German submarines were patrolling the Atlantic and in 1941, they sank an American freighter and exchanged fire with a US destroyer. In a radio address, President Roosevelt called U-boats "the rattlesnakes of the Atlantic" and announced a shoot-on-sight defense policy. And after Pearl Harbor, the military sent service members to St. Augustine to monitor the sea for these German U-boats.

• 1:01:17Danielle LaRock?

  The Coast Guard operated the lighthouse in St. Augustine and led regular patrols on the beaches called sand pounders. Volunteer civilian pilots flew continuous air patrols to monitor the ocean, and teams of volunteer shrimpers and boat captains patrolled the coast in their private boats. One coast guardsman stationed there was a Kiowa and Apache man named James O'Shea. O'Shea was a celebrated indigenous artist, and 60 years prior, his grandfather had been one of the individuals held prisoner in St. Augustine. In his free time between Coast Guard shifts, he would volunteer at the fort to help decipher markings that the prisoners had left on the walls and identify people in surviving photos.

• 1:02:00Danielle LaRock?

  But in 1941, German submarines began sinking ships all over the American coast, left and right. In a two-week span in January, they sunk 12 Navy ships. The attacks happened with no warning and were coordinated across great distances, one after the other, from New York to Cape Cod to Nova Scotia to Virginia and North Carolina. Then two months later, the onslaught would resume. Some described the East Coast at this time as the most dangerous area for shipping in the entire world. Nevertheless, to power its wartime industry, the US still needed to ship things, and on the night of April 10th, a brand-new fuel tanker named the SS Gulf America was passing by St. Augustine.

• 1:02:44Danielle LaRock?

  Carrying 90,000 gallons of fuel to New York, the brand-new tanking ship was traveling in the dark to avoid being spotted, you know, sneaky snake, like trying to just slip on by. But, and obviously, yeah, I see your line of thinking, but unbeknownst to the people of Florida, German U-boats were able to see ships at night if they were silhouetted by the lights on land, as in lights from... People, L I V I N, on tourist resorts.

• 1:03:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:16Danielle LaRock?

  Um, or like the lighthouse, or just different things like that. And we know this because in the 1980s, author Michael Gannon interviewed the German U-boat pilot, who was also off of the coast of Florida that evening. His name was Reinhard Hartigan, one of the many submarine pilots in what the Germans called Operation Drumbeat. In these interviews, he recalled navigating by the light of St. Augustine Lighthouse and spotting the Gulf America's shadow offshore before racing up to catch up with it outside of Jacksonville. At 10:30 PM, the tanker vessel was struck by a German torpedo and erupted in flames.

• 1:03:57Danielle LaRock?

  A thunderous shock ignited the fuel onboard, shining a light like the midday sun for miles around. People in Jacksonville and St. Augustine saw the horrifying glow of the 150-foot mushroom cloud, and some people raced for a closer look. Eight other ships were destroyed during this wave of attacks, but the Gulf America burned the brightest. The government immediately ordered coastal lights to be shut off at night to prevent further attacks and halted all oil shipments because they couldn't afford to lose anymore. Four days after the attack, the Cathedral of St. Augustine held a requiem mass for the 19 sailors who died in the explosion.

• 1:04:38Danielle LaRock?

  But Operation Drumbeat was not the end of the Nazis' plan to sabotage the United States. The next time, rather than targeting ships off the coast, they wanted to infiltrate American factories on land. If they could cripple America's aluminum plants, power plants, and rail transportation, the engines of industry that were keeping the Allies alive would screech to a halt. So the Nazis recruited German-Americans who had previously lived in the United States and sent them to receive three weeks of intense training at a sabotage school. A spy academy, if you will.

• 1:05:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Sabotage school.

• 1:05:16Danielle LaRock?

  So each morning, they would exercise, and over lunch, they'd study current issues of the New York Times and Life magazines to brush up on the current US culture. They were instructed in how to place and use explosives, many of which were disguised as lumps of coal. They were issued American-brand fountain pens that would burst into flames when they were opened.

• 1:05:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, that's kind of cool.

• 1:05:39Danielle LaRock?

  Scary. They ran training exercises, visited factories, and learned the critical points to target for maximum damage. They rehearsed and stress tested their cover stories, learned to write in invisible ink, and just did all of the stuff that sounds like a spy would do in a movie. Like, I, invisible ink, I thought was from Harry Potter.

• 1:06:02Danielle LaRock?

  What do you mean? It's real.

• 1:06:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Harry Potter got the idea from these guys.

• 1:06:06Danielle LaRock?

  Finally, by the end of training, eight men were selected for the mission and divided into two different teams. One group of four would land in New York and the other would land in Florida, just north of St. Augustine. On June 17, 1942, what appeared to be four casual vacationers emerged from a German U-boat and buried their explosives in the sand before lounging for a while in swimsuits and swimming at the beach before catching a bus to Jacksonville. There's no telling the damage these spies could have done, but luckily their plan didn't get very far. The leader of the group who landed in New York, George John Dasch, never planned to go through with it, and after convincing one other agent to defect with

• 1:06:49Danielle LaRock?

  him, he called the FBI and revealed the entire plot to the Americans, turned over the other names and addresses written in invisible ink on a handkerchief.

• 1:06:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh shit.

• 1:06:59Danielle LaRock?

  Like, I'm gonna use this invisible ink one more time, and then to give everyone away.

• 1:07:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, I have an idea.

• 1:07:05Danielle LaRock?

  All of the saboteurs were caught. The two that confessed served a prison sentence, and the other six that did not were put to death. That was the last of the Nazi drama in St. Augustine, and when the war came to an end in 1945, the town was allowed to turn its lights back on. Fort Marion, as the Americans had always called it, was formally renamed by an act of Congress who restored the original Spanish name, the Castillo de San Marcos. Renovations and renewed interest in the fort helped it remain a popular tourist destination, and for once, the Castillo did not attract any ghost stories from World War II. In fact, there aren't many ghost stories from the World War II era at all. However, there is

• 1:07:47Danielle LaRock?

  a compelling one from the St. Augustine Lighthouse nearby, which was the same lighthouse that a German U-boat captain spotted on the night of August 10, 1941, when the explosion happened. So, we're gonna, er, real quick.

• 1:08:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Over to the lighthouse haunting.

• 1:08:03Danielle LaRock?

  Really quick. In the years following World War II, lighthouse caretakers have reported phantom footsteps following them up the metal stairs. One night, as a worker was descending from the top of the lighthouse, he heard children laughing from above him. Worried he had locked someone up there on the walkway, he climbed back up to find nobody present. So as he goes back down, he then hears the same exact giggling, but this time coming from below him. Once again, he reached the bottom and no one was there. In the nearby house where the lighthouse keepers once lived, one guest tells the story of waking up in the night to see a little girl standing by his bedside, but after he blinked his eyes, she disappeared.

• 1:08:47Danielle LaRock?

  The explanation given for these types of sightings are the Pity Girls, three young kids who moved to St. Augustine in the 1870s with their dad, who was overseeing construction on the lighthouse. And for fun, the girls often rode the railway carts that moved supplies from supply ships to the construction site of the lighthouse. But one day, tragedy struck. Joined by another girl their age, whose father may have worked on the site, the three sisters climbed into a rail cart like normal, but the wooden barrier that usually stopped the cart was not in place and the cart careened off the edge and plunged into the water below. A worker on site witnessed the accident and raced to the cart, managed to flip the heavy wooden cart over off of the kids,

• 1:09:33Danielle LaRock?

  who ranged from age 15 to four years old. But by that time, three of the girls had drowned. Only the four-year-old girl named Carrie survived.

• 1:09:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh my god, that's awful.

• 1:09:45Danielle LaRock?

  The lighthouse, which is now a maritime museum, has hosted descendants of the Pity family for visits. And like many attractions in St. Augustine, offers ghost tours so you can explore the dark history for yourself and see if you can hear kids laughing if you want, yes.

• 1:10:03Danielle LaRock?

  Truth be told, that is barely the beginning of what there is to uncover about St. Augustine as a whole, and of course, the Castillo. Of course, we don't have time to cover all of it, but I did want to just make mention that the Castillo was controlled by the Confederacy during the Civil War. It had a surprising role during the Civil Rights Movement as a non-segregated meeting place. And there's about a million different ghost stories and eyewitness accounts from the Castillo over time. For years, tourists and residents of St. Augustine have reported seeing apparitions of soldiers walking the grounds or pacing the walls.

• 1:10:47Danielle LaRock?

  Heavy bootsteps are heard echoing throughout the coquina-lined halls, and reports of being touched or shoved happen way more often than you may be comfortable with. While most people hope for a ghostly sighting, some people demand it. So going back to the beginning and back to Zach Baggins in the beginning of the episode, Ghost Hunters did visit the Castillo. It was season two, episode two, I believe. It premiered in June of 2009. And in this episode, which is, have you watched Ghost Hunters?

• 1:11:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  A long time ago.

• 1:11:27Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 1:11:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  But.

• 1:11:28Danielle LaRock?

  It's dramatic.

• 1:11:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's very dramatic. They always, it's always dark and they're walking through a creepy hallway and they have their little readers on them and.

• 1:11:37Danielle LaRock?

  Well, and Zach in particular is all for the drama and he's very evocative and bordering on insensitive, if not going all the way into insensitive territory. And he's just there for the best clips and reaction and doesn't really.

• 1:11:58Danielle LaRock?

  Care for stepping on anybody's toes or anything like that. So I don't know. Anyway, the drama, but I did want to mention that I watched that episode for this today.

• 1:12:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Is that what you were watching earlier when you were like, can we record this a little later? You're like, I'm watching Ghost Hunters.

• 1:12:15Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I'm working.

• 1:12:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm working. This is work.

• 1:12:19Danielle LaRock?

  This is important. Well, as part of this drama in this episode, like I said, the Fort Matanzas that I said would come back later. So he visits this nearby. He paddles out, puts a little life jacket on, gets in a boat and paddles over to this island where this massacre took place. And he collects sand into a water bottle, empty water bottle, and says, this will be like throwing holy water from a demon and brings it back to the Castillo. And in an effort to taunt and garner some sort of interaction with the ghosts, he sprinkles the sand onto the floors of the soldiers quarters and proceeds to taunt them,

• 1:13:03Danielle LaRock?

  saying, you like that? You like that soil?

• 1:13:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  What?

• 1:13:09Danielle LaRock?

  Because he's like, you murdered, like, because he's basically saying like,

• 1:13:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  On this land.

• 1:13:14Danielle LaRock?

  Like you slaughtered 300 people over there. You never thought this soil would come into the fort. And he's just like,

• 1:13:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's a stretch. It's a stretch.

• 1:13:24Danielle LaRock?

  He's like, punch me. And then he starts trying to speak in Spanish and in French of just like, do something, like come at me essentially. And I mean, he freaks the fuck out. Everyone freaks out. They're like, oh, my God.

• 1:13:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  What is that?

• 1:13:42Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So I don't know. But he also, for a little bit there, dragged chains around.

• 1:13:50Danielle LaRock?

  Like the chains of the alleged lovers that were pinned to the wall.

• 1:13:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Danielle LaRock?

  To try and be like, you were chained and.

• 1:14:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  If I was a ghost, I intentionally would not haunt this person. I'd be like, you're weirdo.

• 1:14:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So for about the 45 minutes of footage in this episode, him and his team proceed to run around all night throughout the fort and freak out, feeling touched or feeling cold spots or hearing disembodied footsteps. They catch a couple EVPs of weird whispers and groans and things like that, which are kind of compelling, but neither here nor there. So you can watch the episode for yourself if you want to. I'll link it in the show notes. And while the National Park Service clearly was involved in this episode, because they truly do lock him in.

• 1:14:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Danielle LaRock?

  They remained pretty tight lipped about any personal experiences they may or may not have had themselves, because he straight up asked them. He interviews a bunch of people in the episode and he interviews two park staff and they're just like, you could see they're like, um, I don't know, no. And then he has this audio overlay. He's like, the government has lines of what they can and cannot say.

• 1:15:20Danielle LaRock?

  So I don't want to speak for the Rangers, but if any of you listeners work at the fort or have worked at the fort, I would love to hear, you can stay anonymous, but we would love to hear your experiences there.

• 1:15:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  For sure.

• 1:15:35Danielle LaRock?

  If you have them. And on the National Park Service's website for the Castillo de San Marcos, it says, "Some history hurts and some history heals, but all of it can surprise and inspire us." So this is your sign to visit the Castillo for the history, for the haunts, and if you're lucky, a whole lot of both.

• 1:15:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow. Ta-da.

• 1:15:56Danielle LaRock?

  Ta-da.

• 1:15:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  There it is added to your list.

• 1:16:00Danielle LaRock?

  So do you want to go more or less than before?

• 1:16:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  More for sure. There's a lot of really cool history there. I wasn't into the ghost punching me in the stomach thing. I'm good on that. I don't even want to be touched by a ghost, never mind physically assaulted. But now that that seems extremely far-fetched, I'm much more interested.

• 1:16:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I think that it definitely has heavy vibes. It doesn't seem like a lot of great things happened there. But at the same time, knowing that it had a part in such pivotal times in history, it's not just like doom and gloom and terror and torment type of thing. It's more rounded than that. There's more to it. So I think it's more reason to go and visit other than just like, hey, some really dark things happened here and nothing really else. Do you want to go ghost hunt? It's like,

• 1:17:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's not even the ghosts for this story that have made me the most interested. It's been more the things that have taken place in and the fact because you mentioned it was built in the 1500s that it's been around for so long and it's seen so many things and it's been used for so many things. I think that that's way more interesting than, of course, if I'm visiting, I'll be seeing if I catch any weird vibes while I'm walking around. But for the most part, I think it's the history that's more intriguing to visit.

• 1:17:31Danielle LaRock?

  Great. Glad to hear it. And when we did our live stream, was it during or maybe after? I don't know. But I remember because we had this conversation at the time of, oh, we've never been to St. Augustine.

• 1:17:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Danielle LaRock?

  Type of thing. And people are like, if you hated Gatlinburg.

• 1:17:48Danielle LaRock?

  You're in for it in St. Augustine, but I don't know, like,

• 1:17:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  I guess we'll have to find out for ourselves. It's more expected there than outside of Great Smoky Mountain.

• 1:17:58Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, all right. Well, thanks, everyone for listening. I know that one was super history dense, but we are history Webby winners. So what do you expect?

• 1:18:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, we want to have you for history. So we're just trying to live up to the honor.

• 1:18:16Danielle LaRock?

  Right. So, I don't know. Next time I'll do something light.

• 1:18:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  You guys voted for this.

• 1:18:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, you did. So it's your fault.

• 1:18:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And we hope you enjoyed it.

• 1:18:27Danielle LaRock?

  And we'll see you next week. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

• 1:18:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  But watch your back.

• 1:18:31Danielle LaRock?

  Bye.

• 1:18:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye.

• 1:18:35Danielle LaRock?

  Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more NPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark. For more stories just like this one with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.

• 1:19:11Speaker 05

  Everyone talks about how challenging it is to raise kids, but what about protecting them? Outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, baby gates, where do you even start? Well, protecting your home and auto is a great place to start. Progressive offers customized coverage options, so you can be sure you have the right coverage. They're basically the baby gates of insurance. Get a quote at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates, and other insurers. Not available in all states.