Kidnapped by a Satanic Cult? Alpine National Park

A couple heads out for a picnic, but everything changes when they’re attacked by masked strangers and taken deep into the wilderness of Alpine National Park. Their disappearance sparks a massive search, but as police begin investigating, strange details start to emerge, and suspicion grows that something far more calculated than originally believed may be behind it… possibly even a cult. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodes For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials: Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdark Support the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to this week’s partners! PAKA: Grab your alpaca hoodie at PAKA® | Sustainable Alpaca Wool Outdoor Apparel from Peru . Quince: Refresh your everyday wardrobe with free shipping and 365-day returns at Women's Best Sellers – Top-Rated Cashmere, Linen & Leather Styles . Smalls: Get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life at Fresh Human-Grade Cat Food Delivery | Smalls . HARVEST HOSTS: Start your next road trip adventure with Harvest Hosts. Stay overnight at unique wineries, farms, breweries, and more across North America. Head to HarvestHosts.com and use code NPAD for 20% off your membership. First Day: Our listeners get up to 57% Off AND a Free Gift with code NPAD at Organic Multivitamin Gummies | First Day Vitamins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  When we think about dangers in the wilderness, we picture the obvious things: getting lost, extreme weather, wild animals, kinds of risks that you can prepare for. But there's another risk people don't talk about as much: the person you choose to go out there with. Because when you're somewhere remote, you are relying on that person. If something goes wrong, they're the ones who decides what happens next: whether to stay, whether to leave, whether to get help, or not. And lately, that dynamic has been getting more attention. In early 2026, the term "alpine divorce" started circulating online, describing situations where someone intentionally abandons their partner in a remote or dangerous outdoor setting.

• 1:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's often framed as a dramatic breakup, but experts point to it being something much more serious: emotional abuse, coercive control, and in some cases, life-threatening neglect. And there are real cases behind that data. In 2025, a climber in Austria left his girlfriend in Grosse Glockner, the country's highest mountain in winter conditions. She later died of hypothermia. During the trial, another woman came forward and said he had done something similar to her years earlier, leaving her alone on the mountain in the dark while she was exhausted, disoriented, and calling out for help. The court ruled it was negligent manslaughter, not intentional murder. But the outcome didn't change the reality of what happened.

• 2:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  The person she depended on didn't act when it mattered most. In 2008, in the bushland of Victoria, Australia, a 17-year-old girl went out on what was supposed to be a simple picnic with someone she trusted. Within hours, that trust would be used against her in a way that was deliberate, controlled, and far more dangerous than anything the wilderness could have done. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 3:14Danielle LaRock?

  Hello, everyone, and welcome back to National Park After Dark. My name is Danielle.

• 3:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I'm Cassie. And if you're watching on YouTube, Danielle has brought a special guest today.

• 3:25Danielle LaRock?

  Yes. Say hello. Well, he's actually under, oh, my God. He's so cute. Oh, my God, I feel like Dr. Evil. Or whatever he does, even though this is not a cat.

• 3:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you're listening, she has a dog in her lap.

• 3:39Danielle LaRock?

  Sorry, that was all, that was very confusing. I have a dog. He's very small in my lap. And it's just like the size of a cat. So that's why I feel this way. But he is my current foster. Hopefully, by the time this comes out, he is adopted. But he's kind of in witness protection. So his real name, his true identity, is being concealed and for our ears only. But you can, you can call him Noah. That is his witness protection. Oh, yeah.

• 4:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  I didn't even know his witness protection name. Right, Noah? Noah's sleeping.

• 4:15Danielle LaRock?

  Confuse him, you know? Oh, my God.

• 4:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  He's sleeping. We can't continue.

• 4:21Danielle LaRock?

  Thanks for coming. The intro was great. I feel like I got the gist of what you were trying to say. We can talk about Noah for the next. He only has three legs also, by the way. He's a little chihuahua. He has three legs and he is kind of, he looks a lot like Chaska as far as he's blonde. He has a little white tip on his tail. He has one little floppy ear. Oh, sorry, this ear. And that's about it, I guess, but.

• 4:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Twins.

• 4:52Danielle LaRock?

  Side by side, they're super adorable.

• 4:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, I'll try not to get too distracted by him during this telling of the episode because today I'm going to be telling the story of a couple who was discovered naked, disoriented and lost in the wilderness. And when authorities asked what happened, they said that they had been kidnapped, but the story just got stranger and stranger from there. This episode takes place inside Alpine National Park in Victoria, Australia. And this is actually the second time. Yeah, this is the second time we've covered this national park on the podcast because you did the valley killings.

• 5:31Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, multi-parter, I think, right? Two, two-part.

• 5:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Was it?

• 5:34Danielle LaRock?

  Right? No, sorry.

• 5:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  I thought it was a one-parter.

• 5:37Danielle LaRock?

  It is. Yeah, I'm misspeaking. I'm thinking of the Wells Gray murder, something different. But yes, I do remember. I think I covered it last summer.

• 5:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, or it was August 2024.

• 5:48Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so two summers ago. I'm gonna just not talk for the rest of this episode and just listen and stroke Noah like this, like Dr. Evil would.

• 6:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Perfect.

• 6:04Danielle LaRock?

  So cute. Oh, my God. He's just, he's such a good sport about everything and he is reminiscent of a cat. He just, this dog sleeps like, and I'm not, he's not on any meds. He's not like, at first I was like, oh, he's just getting used to the, he had a big day. You know, like the first day and he was sleeping a lot. I'm like, he's exhausted. He's been through it. Who knows? You know what he's just overcome.

• 6:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  This is so funny because we're already getting distracted after immediately said we're not gonna get distracted.

• 6:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, this is a big episode. It's serious.

• 6:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. No, truly, what you have described seems really serious in nature. So just pretend he's not here.

• 6:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's very hard, but I will try to move forward with this episode. Okay, so before we jump into this full story, I wanted to do a little recap of Alpine National Park, even though we have already been here. So a quick reminder, it is located in southeastern Australia. Alpine National Park in Victoria is the state's largest national park, covering 2,500 square miles of rugged alpine mountain terrain with hundreds of miles of trails for hiking, mountain biking, and cross-country skiing. It's known for its abundance of wildflowers in the summer months and excellent skiing in the winter. The park has something for nature lovers and adventure seekers in every season, including whitewater rafting, four-wheeling, and horseback riding.

• 7:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  The well-known Australian Alps walking track follows ridges and high plains through Alpine National Park as well, traversing four national parks across its 441 miles or 650 kilometers. Through hikers can complete the trek in about 10 weeks, but many people choose to complete shorter sections like the 50-mile segment through the picturesque Bogong High Plains in Alpine National Park. From here, hikers can also summit Mount Bogong, Victoria's tallest peak, at 6,500 feet or 1,986 meters. The park is home to many animals that have adapted to survive the severe winter climate, including threatened species like the smoky mouse, broad-toothed rat, powerful owl,

• 8:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  spotted tree frog, and she-oak skinks. God, this place sounds like something out of a fantasy. I'm like, what are all these animals that I've never heard?

• 8:26Danielle LaRock?

  I was just gonna say, what's a powerful owl? Is that a species or is that a descriptor?

• 8:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's supposed to be a species in my list, but...

• 8:38Danielle LaRock?

  Who are we to say, really?

• 8:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's a surprise. You have to look it up to find out.

• 8:44Danielle LaRock?

  I can't move.

• 8:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, obviously you can't. And I can't either because I'm telling the story, but you guys as listeners can tell us. It's also home to the critically endangered pygmy possum, the world's only marsupial to live exclusively in the alpine, soaring food to last throughout the winter. Because of its higher altitude, Alpine National Park is prone to dramatic weather and extreme temperature fluctuations. It can be scorching hot in the direct sunlight by day and then cool off to below freezing temperatures at night. Unpredictable weather can roll in on short notice, including thunderstorms and high winds. And this is a landscape where 17-year-old Carolyn Watson and 22-year-old Julian Butchwald were kidnapped and stranded in the remote wilderness.

• 9:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Our story doesn't begin there, though. It starts almost 200 miles away in the small rural town of Bungary on Julian Butchwald's family land. They owned 1,200 acres of land there, most of which was undeveloped bush. The rural landscape was beautiful. Their nearest neighbors were miles away, meaning the rolling hills, babbling streams and groves of trees that dotted the land were secluded and private. They even had a small waterfall on their property all to themselves. After Julian graduated from school, he stayed living at home to help his parents manage the land. He worked mainly as a lumberjack chopping and selling wood, as well as cleaning up any fallen trees on the expansive property.

• 10:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  A few years later, when he was 21, he met the girl he decided he wanted to marry, Carolyn Watson. Five years his junior, Carolyn was only 16 years old when she met Julian at church. The two quickly became enamored with each other and started dating. However, because they were both devout Christians, they wanted to save themselves for marriage and they took their chastity seriously, deciding to do little more than hold hands before their wedding day. From the outside, their relationship appeared deeply committed and grounded in shared values. But there were disagreements about the future, particularly around timing, that hadn't been fully resolved.

• 10:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Although they talked with her pastor about getting married early on, Carolyn wanted to wait until she finished her studies and graduated high school. Plus, she couldn't legally marry until she was 18 anyway, and when she and Julian started dating, she was only 16. By 2008, the couple had been together for over a year and still planned on getting married. They discussed it at length amongst themselves and with their parents and pastor, but there was still tension around the timeline because Julian was in more of a rush to be married. In fact, after speaking with their pastor, the couple decided to take a break for a month. The relationship resumed after that, but there was more friction, with Julian still pushing for marriage sooner and Carolyn wanting to focus on her schooling.

• 11:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  At this point, Carolyn was 17 and Julian was 22. Despite this, the couple overall was in a good place, and Julian had planned a romantic afternoon for the two of them. On March 4, 2008, Julian picked Carolyn up around 9:30 a.m. for a romantic picnic on his parents' property that he had planned out for her. He asked the Watsons for permission to take their daughter on an excursion the week before. He was excited and had planned a treasure hunt for her that would end at his family's private waterfall where the two of them would enjoy their picnic. It was nearing the end of summer, but the weather was still lovely. Remember, March is summertime there. I always have to remember that they're in the southern hemisphere. So it's not spring, it's like fall, or almost.

• 12:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  He packed some food, beverages, and a picnic blanket in his car for a fun-filled day. Everything about the day was carefully planned by Julian, even down to the smallest details of the treasure hunt leading her to the beautiful waterfall. And Julian appeared especially eager for everything to go just right. And Carolyn was equally as excited. On their drive into the bush of Julian's property, they saw a few deer watching them from the side of the road. Julian thought they looked spooked, and then he noticed a deer carcass on the side of the road. His family kept deer as farm animals on their land, and they had problems before with hunters trespassing on the property and killing them. So out of concern, he stopped the car a bit ahead of where the animal was and went back to check it out.

• 13:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  This was common for Julian, because they were on his family's land after all, and Carolyn didn't really think anything of it. She just waited in the car for him to come back. But since they had just pulled around a bend, she couldn't see Julian when she looked for him in the rear mirror. So instead, she just waited in the car while it idled. After about 10 minutes with no sign of Julian, Carolyn was still sitting in the car when she saw something in the rear view running towards her. She saw a man running towards her, their face completely covered by a balaclava, wearing khaki pants and a tan jacket. It happened so quickly Carolyn barely had time to react. He reached the car and pulled the door open,

• 13:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  and that's when she saw that he was wearing latex gloves. Before she could react, he forced himself in, unbuckled her seatbelt and grabbed her, dragging her out of the car. She was forced face down onto a yellow blanket on the ground. The impact knocked the breath out of her and within seconds, her arms were pulled behind her as he tied her wrists tightly with a rope and then her ankles. She couldn't get her footing, couldn't push up, couldn't turn over. Duct tape was pressed firmly over her eyes, cutting her vision completely. Out of fear, she didn't try to fight this stranger off of her. Everything was happening too quickly and too forcefully. She thought she could hear voices somewhere nearby, but they were too muffled to make

• 14:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  out and she didn't recognize them. Within moments, he lifted her again and forced her back into the car, shoving her onto the floor behind the front passenger seat. He pushed her head down and covered her with a blanket, keeping her pinned in place. Then, the driver's door opened and the stranger hopped inside and the car sped off, making a sharp U-turn. They drove for hours with her stuffed on the floor. Carolyn had no sense of direction, no way of knowing where they were going. They stopped periodically. Each time, the kidnapper checked her restraints, making sure her hands were still tied and that she was breathing. During some of these stops, she heard the trunk being opened more than once. The repetition stood out to her and she

• 15:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  thought that maybe Julian might be in the trunk. She yelled out for him, trying to get any response or acknowledgement that he was there with her, but there was nothing. Eventually, the car came to a stop again. The attacker pulled her out and threw her to the ground. It had started raining, and she could feel it soaking into her clothes, chilling her to the bone. The attacker noticed, and he placed a plastic tarp over her, shielding her from the rain. In the moment, she was grateful for the cover, but found the nice gesture odd, especially since she felt like he might be taking her somewhere to kill her. She pushed the thoughts away and tried to focus on what she could hear of her surroundings.

• 15:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Lying there, blindfolded and unable to see, she noted that she could hear a river nearby. Then she heard the car drive off further into the bush, and for a moment, she thought he might leave her there. But then, she heard him on foot. And not far from where she lay, she heard the sounds of digging. Still tied up, blindfolded and unable to move, Carolyn laid on the hard ground and assumed the worst, that he was going to bury her alive. After he stopped digging though, the kidnapper cut the ropes from her feet, picked her up, and pushed her roughly through the bush. She couldn't help but think, was the whole digging all part of some twisted game that he was playing with her?

• 16:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  They walked for a few minutes, and the river got louder. Then, he pushed her to the ground again, and threw blankets over her head. Then, he took out something sharp, and started violently cutting and tearing off her clothes. She assumed that she was about to be raped and then murdered, so she did the only thing she could in that moment, she prayed. Once he had removed her clothing, something strange happened, her attacker left again. For a while, everything was silent until suddenly, Carolyn heard Julian's voice nearby calling out for her, saying, "Carolyn, is that you? Are you okay?" She frantically responded, so relieved to finally hear his voice.

• 17:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  She told him she was tied up and couldn't untie herself on her own. Julian responded, telling her that he could see a knife on the ground between the two of them, and described where it was. Still unable to see, Carolyn shifted across the ground slowly, feeling with her hands until she found it. Once she did, she passed it towards his voice. Julian used the knife to cut the restraints binding his hands, then moved to her and cut the rope from her wrists. He then removed the duct tape from her eyes. When the blindfold came off, her vision was initially blurred from being in the dark for so long. As her eyes adjusted, she was able to see more clearly. There was no sign of the attacker anywhere. Both she and Julian were naked with no sign of their clothes nearby.

• 17:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  They had no idea when he'd return or what he'd do when he did. Around them on the ground were several items that Carolyn hadn't been aware of before, including a sleeping bag, a shovel, a knife, and two jars, one containing peanut butter and the other tahini, a paste made from ground sesame seeds. Julian grabbed what he could, handing the sleeping bag to Carolyn while picking up the knife, the shovel, and the jars. When she opened the sleeping bag, she saw additional items inside, including a toothbrush still in its packaging and a pillowcase filled with dried coconut. With no clear understanding of where the attacker was or what he might do next, Julian told her they needed to leave, so they ran.

• 18:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Once they stopped running, Carolyn realized she was freezing. She draped the sleeping bag over her shoulders while Julian carried the smaller items and they continued walking. Carolyn asked Julian where he had been while she was being attacked. He told her two guys had jumped him, one hitting him in the head with a big metal rod. He tried to fight back but was knocked unconscious, which explained why he hadn't responded when she had called out for him. Julian had blood all over his face, so much so that Carolyn thought that he looked like he had come out of a Dracula movie, but he seemed to only have a small scratch on his forehead. She couldn't find any bruise, but she didn't think anything of it. She was just glad that they were both alive and relatively okay.

• 19:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Naked and barefoot, Julian and Carolyn moved through the bush with no clear direction, following the river and heading uphill, hoping it might lead them somewhere. They had no map, no real understanding of where they were, only the assumption that staying near water might help them survive.

• 19:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  The supplies they found were limited and they rationed what little food they had as they went. During the day, they kept moving, trying to cover as much ground as possible. At night, they stopped and talked, going over what had happened again and again, trying to make sense of it. Carolyn believed the attack might have been connected to hunters who had been illegally killing deer on Julian's property, thinking maybe Julian had confronted them and things escalated. Julian wasn't convinced, but neither of them had any real explanation. They shared a single sleeping bag at night, using it as their only protection against the cold. After a few days, now that they're out there, the weather shifted, the temperature dropped, and rain returned, making everything harder. The ground was

• 20:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  wet, their bodies were exposed, and they had no shelter beyond what they could improvise. At that point, the reality of their situation started to set in more clearly, and they began to consider that they might not make it out alive. Because at this point, they're out there, I mean, they've been out there for days. They've been walking.

• 20:51Danielle LaRock?

  And they're naked.

• 20:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  And they're naked.

• 20:53Danielle LaRock?

  That's the.

• 20:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's the end of summer.

• 20:56Danielle LaRock?

  It's just, I've mentioned it before, I think, on the show, or at least in our private conversations, but even in the most sanitized of experiences on Naked and Afraid, the TV show.

• 21:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:10Danielle LaRock?

  I just, something about that just makes it so much harder. And it's interesting, because even on other survival shows and stuff, it's not like they have a ton of other clothing. If anything, even on like Survivor and stuff, they have like, what, a bandeau, and maybe just some underwear or whatever. They're not really wearing a lot of clothing. So the difference isn't huge, but I think it makes just everything so much more difficult, and you just feel so much more exposed and laid bare to the elements and your situation. And it's not only a physical difference, it's a mental thing as well.

• 21:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  Totally. And with those shows, they're usually in tropical places, and here they are.

• 21:58Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  In the Alpine, and it's the end of, it's the end of summertime.

• 22:04Danielle LaRock?

  After a traumatic experience. And yeah.

• 22:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  And you would think after a traumatic experience that you would be feeling a certain type of way, but Julian starts doing some weird things. So it was during these nights in the cold and the rain that Julian began asking Carolyn to marry him, saying they should do it in the eyes of God, in case they were going to die out there, which I think is pretty normal. You think that you're gonna die, like, let's get married. We love each other under the eyes of God, like, our last thing we do before we die. But she refused, telling him her parents wouldn't approve. But the conversation didn't stop there. It came up repeatedly, night after night, becoming an argument that carried them through their time in the bush.

• 22:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Julian also insisted that they should have sex to keep warm, at times raising his voice when she refused. Carolyn stood strong and she continued to say no, but...

• 23:03Danielle LaRock?

  This is the whole reason he wants to get married. Is it not? I mean, it's clear as day to me.

• 23:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  He's like, "Just marry me so we can have sex."

• 23:11Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, even before this whole situation, even before all the conversation, like, the only thing I can think of is this guy just wants to have sex with her. And he's like, "Fine, whatever, let's get married and let's do it now, because I want to fuck," you know?

• 23:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And they weren't doing anything except for holding hands, like, they weren't kissing. There was no type of, like, intimacy physically that was happening. And he was really pushing for, "Let's just get married so we can do everything."

• 23:39Danielle LaRock?

  I hate that very much. And I have my suspicions based on context clues and foreshadowing of things you were saying. But I have my eyes on Julian.

• 23:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, he's also older.

• 23:53Danielle LaRock?

  If anyone ever, ever were in a survival situation after a near-death experience, and they're like, "Hey, we should probably just have sex." I don't care if it's

• 24:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm probably disgusting, first off.

• 24:09Danielle LaRock?

  I can't tell you.

• 24:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  There's no protection. There's probably fucking, there's leaves, there are sticks going places they're not supposed to go. There is nothing. Stay away from me.

• 24:21Danielle LaRock?

  Like, I don't, I can't tell you how much I would hate, in what, and also, it's like, can you read the room? Like, why would you want to have sex with somebody who clearly

• 24:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  is not interested?

• 24:34Danielle LaRock?

  Is in no way, shape, or form in the mood to do so.

• 24:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 24:39Danielle LaRock?

  And this is supposed to be someone you, um, whatever. I don't know. I just.

• 24:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Danielle LaRock?

  I'm not even surprised. Honestly, I'm not surprised. It's just gross.

• 24:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 24:54Danielle LaRock?

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• 27:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, while all this is happening, meanwhile, back in Hungary, the police had been searching for the couple since the afternoon of March 4th, when they didn't return home at the expected time. So that's the same day that they went out. They didn't return.

• 27:37Danielle LaRock?

  Cause they were supposed to just go on a picnic, right? A day to the waterfall and back and yeah.

• 27:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And her parents knew about it. It was fully planned a week in advance. And so the fact that they didn't come back that night, I think raised suspicions pretty immediately. And of course, both Carolyn and Julian were known to be pretty responsible kids and they were always on time for things. So it wasn't like, oh, they're, they're young. They go off and do things. It's normal. Maybe they'll show up tomorrow, kind of thing. It was pretty obvious right off the bat that this was out of character. So Julian's parents actually called the police pretty quick. Julian's mom headed down the road from their house to see if she could spot them anywhere, where she discovered something disturbing. She found a note shoved in a bottle stuck through the wire fence. When she started to read the note, she became even more distraught.

• 28:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  It said, This is direct quote of what it said. You bloody couldn't leave us alone, so your son and girl went walkabout. Also, just.

• 28:38Danielle LaRock?

  Your son and girl.

• 28:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  I want to say this note says some things that I don't fully understand. Just for context. Okay. So it said, you bloody couldn't leave us alone, so your son and girl went walkabout. You get Carolyn and Matthew back when we finish our business in the area, but only if you behave yourself and don't shit us around again. Matthew was Carolyn's younger brother. Tell everyone they're on holiday. Don't you dare talk to the cops again and you'll get your kids back. Shit us again and you'll never see them again because we'll fuck the girl to death and burn her alive. And the bloody boy will really enjoy the torture and sacrifice to our God to pay back

• 29:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  180 times the hurt he did to us when we picked them up. Do what we say and the kids come back alive in condition.

• 29:32Danielle LaRock?

  I'm sorry, why is Matthew? I'm confused why Matthew is involved and Julian is not mentioned.

• 29:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm not sure.

• 29:40Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 29:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  This is just the note that they found. So at this point, I don't know if they're thinking like, maybe her brother was supposed to be taken in this, or they thought, the note thought that Julian was her brother or something along those lines. But the note.

• 29:58Danielle LaRock?

  Distressing nonetheless.

• 30:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's horrific what they're saying. So of course she ran back inside and called the cops right away. They immediately started searching the nearby countryside by land and by air, but the terrain was tricky, heavily wooded with lots of dirt roads, hidden paths and thick brush. The intense language in the note alarmed even the cops. And as they analyzed it to try to figure out who might be behind the kidnapping, they asked the Bushwalds if they had any enemies or anyone who might have beef with them, but they didn't. So like, does anyone have?

• 30:32Danielle LaRock?

  Out to get you.

• 30:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, is anyone out to get you? When the Watsons heard about the note, however, they revealed that they had received a similar one 10 days prior, telling them to mind their own business and saying Christians were their enemies. Over a week ago, when Carolyn's dad found the note on their front porch, he reported it to the police as well, but they didn't do anything at the time, thinking it was probably just a sick prank. The Watsons recognized the handwriting on the Buchwald's note as the same as the one that they had received, and they noticed the same symbol drawn on the paper as well. It looked like a satanic pentagram, but with more lines. And with that symbol, investigators looked into it.

• 31:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  And what they found is that it was linked to a group known as the Order of Nine Angels, often abbreviated as ONA. The group is believed to have originated in England in the late 1960s or early 1970s, though its exact beginnings are difficult to pin down. It was not a centralized organization in a traditional sense, but rather a loose decentralized network of smaller cells. So instead of operating as one structured group, the ONA is made up of independent units called nexons. These nexons are intentionally small, often just a handful of people, and rarely more than a dozen. There is no official membership list, no central leadership that openly coordinates activities,

• 31:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  and no confirmed total numbers of members. Estimates suggest the group has always remained relatively small, but its influence has spread internationally over time, including into parts of Europe, North America, and Australia. The group's ideology blends elements of occultism, extreme individualism, and neo-Nazi or acceleration beliefs. One of their core ideas is that chaos and violence can be used to disrupt society and bring about transformation. Within their writings, this is sometimes expressed through the concept of culling, which is described inconsistently, but it is framed as a kind of symbolic or psychological test.

• 32:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  In some, and in others, it's actually the act of murder. And it is to intend to remove those that they consider weak or unworthy. Central to the ONA belief system is the progression known as the Sevenfold Way, which is a multi-stage path that members are expected to follow over the course of several years. It's not a quick initiation, but a long-term process designed to reshape a person's identity and detach them from conventional society. Because Carolyn and Julian were both devout Christians, the police thought they might have discovered the motive, and they thought that maybe this was all a part of a cult abduction. Neither Carolyn and Julian had any known ties to the ONA,

• 33:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  but their symbols' presence on both letters was really alarming. In the letter that Carolyn's father discovered the week before they were kidnapped, the author wrote, "You, my enemy, as Christian, accidents can easily be arranged, so you leave us alone and we leave you alone." And talking about Christians as the enemy seemed like it might be sufficient motive for this heinous crime of two Christian people who are a couple. And because of everything that was coming to light with this cult that may have abducted them, the church hosted prayer vigils around the clock for their safe return, with community members leading prayers alongside the Bushwells and the Watsons. However, when the police asked the pastor if he had any idea

• 34:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  what might be going on, he actually didn't take the cult threats really seriously. His personal opinion was that they probably had just run away together to get married, and that they were just like off and they were going to show up at some point. But because of everything that was being concerning going on, and respect for the family, he wanted to lead these prayers and vigils for them while they waited their return.

• 34:31Danielle LaRock?

  He believed that even, he believed that they wrote those notes themselves?

• 34:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, he just, or I guess that's a good question, because he, I don't know if he thought that they were tied. I don't know if he thought that they were tied to them, or if it was just a coincidence, but his overall feeling was that, like, they're, like, maybe they wrote them themselves, or... He just didn't, he just wasn't taking any of it seriously, it sounded like.

• 34:59Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 35:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 35:00Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, I would think that those two things have to go hand in hand.

• 35:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Danielle LaRock?

  And so it seems like a very elaborate, concerning way to just run off and get, I mean, you could have just run off and got married without

• 35:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 35:18Danielle LaRock?

  writing those deeply disturbing letters that are gonna scar your family forever.

• 35:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, talking about sexually assaulting Carolyn and

• 35:27Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 35:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  killing them and all this stuff. It's gruesome and it's horrific. And if you were just off to go get married, you would think that that's, you would do something maybe a little more happy.

• 35:39Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And also what is

• 35:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Be right back, getting married. Love you guys. I don't know.

• 35:43Danielle LaRock?

  Sorry, you don't agree or, you know, apologies, but

• 35:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Apologies, we couldn't wait.

• 35:48Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 35:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like a big romantic gesture kind of thing.

• 35:52Danielle LaRock?

  Also, what is the follow through with that? So say that's truly what they did. They were the authors of those letters and they went off and got married. They'd eventually have to come back and what are they gonna say? Just kidding. Sorry, we did that?

• 36:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Oh, sorry about those notes. That was weird. But we're married. Like, sure.

• 36:15Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, you know what I mean? Well, clearly, we know based on the information you gave that that's, at least Carolyn wasn't involved in writing that. I mean, she's, right?

• 36:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, sorry. You were giving me a look that made me question what I was thinking, but I mean, she was just thinking she was gonna be buried alive and killed.

• 36:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, this is not the, she clearly is not the person writing these letters, but the pastor just thought like, maybe they were off getting married somewhere. Well, after nearly a week of searching for them, police were beginning to lose hope. By the sixth day, the operation had shifted in tone with many assuming they were likely searching for bodies. The chances of survival seemed low, given the conditions, exposure to the elements, lack of proper supplies, and the earlier threats made in that letter. Then, unexpectedly, they got a call. A local farmer, driving along a remote road in Alpine National Park, had come across the couple.

• 37:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Carolyn and Julian were on foot, emerging from the bush after days of wandering. They were both barefoot and had no proper clothing, relying only on what little they had managed to carry with them. The farmer stopped and helped them, taking them back to his property where they could get immediate assistance. From there, Julian contacted Carolyn's father to let them know that they were alive. When police arrived, both Carolyn and Julian were physically exhausted and had clearly been exposed to the elements for days. They were dehydrated, disoriented, and in shock, but alive. When police arrived, Carolyn was visibly distressed, overwhelmed after what she had been through, but able to recount what had happened.

• 38:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Her account aligned with the story that they had both been telling, that they had been abducted by unknown attackers. Julian supported that same version. That night, both of them were taken to the police station and interviewed extensively. Because of the nature of the case, they were kept separate and stayed in different motel rooms so their accounts could be taken independently. Both maintained that they had been kidnapped. The following day, police located the car abandoned on the side of the road and returned to the bush site where the abduction had taken place. Carolyn and Julian were brought back as well, again in separate vehicles. At the scene, Julian continued to claim that both of them had been taken by unknown attackers.

• 38:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  But as investigators began to search the area more thoroughly, they started finding items scattered and buried throughout the site, including a shovel, a knife, and pieces of clothing. As those items were recovered, Julian's account began to shift. He admitted that he had dug the holes himself and buried some of those items. Other details didn't line up either. Despite claiming he had been knocked unconscious during the supposed attack, he showed no head injury consistent with that kind of trauma from just a week earlier. At that point, the story he had been telling began to unravel. During the field interview, Julian began to crack.

• 39:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  What had initially seemed like a chaotic and violent abduction started to unravel into something far more deliberate. As police searched the area, they began recovering items buried throughout the bush, including clothing, ropes, tools, and other materials. When confronted with this evidence, Julian admitted that he had also dug those holes and hidden them himself. From there, his story continued to shift. He abandoned the claim that he and Carolyn had both been victims and confessed that there had never been any other attackers. He had staged the entire incident. As he spoke, investigators began to piece together what had actually happened.

• 40:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Days before the kidnapping, Julian had already started setting the scene. He typed a threatening note on his home computer, deliberately writing in in broken, aggressive language and referencing a real incident Carolyn's father had reported to police to make it believable.

• 40:23Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, he didn't do that?

• 40:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  He didn't write the first one. He just got inspiration from it.

• 40:29Danielle LaRock?

  Oh my gosh. Okay. What a friggin' sneaky snake.

• 40:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know. It was like this opportunity.

• 40:37Danielle LaRock?

  Well, way more than that, he's fucked up, but...

• 40:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. But he saw that opportunity and was like, oh, I can piece together a plan now. He then drove to their house in the middle of the night, left the note on the porch, and stole several shoes, only the left ones, from outside their home. So he also started, after this note came to Carolyn's family, he then taunted them a little bit. And he went, he stole some shoes, only the left ones. He didn't want to do anything that was like violent or really scary. He just wanted something that would freak them out a little bit.

• 41:12Danielle LaRock?

  That's so crazy that you just said that because he did do something violent and crazy.

• 41:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. But this first one was that he was just trying to like

• 41:23Danielle LaRock?

  Freak them out.

• 41:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Plant the seeds and freak them out before. It was all part of the whole plan that was about to unfold. Like this was just the beginning.

• 41:31Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  On the morning of March 4th, he continued preparing. Before picking Carolyn up, he went out onto his family's property and hid the items he would later use: rope, duct tape, gloves, a balakava, a yellow blanket, and a change of clothes. He placed them along the route they would take so he could access them quickly without being seen. Even the moment that set everything in motion was planned. The deer he had stopped to investigate was not a fresh kill. It was a deer skin he had placed beside the track earlier that morning to create a reason to stop the car and step out of sight.

• 42:08Danielle LaRock?

  What a psychopath.

• 42:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  When he got out of the vehicle, he quickly changed into the hidden clothing, put on the balakava, and approached the car from behind. He then carried out the attack, pulling Carolyn from the vehicle, tying her hands, blindfolding her with duct tape, and forcing her into the footwell behind the car seat before driving away. He drove for hours towards remote bushland in Alpine National Park, taking backroads and tracks. During the drive, he stopped periodically to check that she was still restrained and that she was still breathing. Once they reached a remote area near the Headwaters Wilderness, he removed her from the car and continued staging the scene. He dug holes and buried items to hide evidence, cutting off her clothing and his own, and

• 42:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  then laying down nearby, calling out to her and pretending that he too had been kidnapped.

• 42:59Danielle LaRock?

  This is so disturbing.

• 43:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  This is so messed up.

• 43:02Danielle LaRock?

  I can't believe you have, like, in a time like this, when I have the cutest dog alive, for an episode that's so messed up. I've, I am going through a lot of emotions right now, and-

• 43:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  You have a therapy dog while you're hearing this?

• 43:16Danielle LaRock?

  I do, I guess, yeah.

• 43:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like a comfort dog, yeah.

• 43:19Danielle LaRock?

  And I can't believe, okay, you can continue, but one of the things that keeps flashing in my mind is, this is 2008. How did he think, how in the world did he think he was gonna get away with this?

• 43:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know.

• 43:33Danielle LaRock?

  This isn't the 40s, the 50s, the 60s.

• 43:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Danielle LaRock?

  You know, all of this stuff aside of, this is absolutely so messed up in every single way. I can't believe you would do this to someone you supposedly love and cause all of this harm in psychological, physical, emotional ways to not just her, but to so many others that are now being roped in and involved in this. But just that on the sole premise of you really thought you were going to get away with it and people wouldn't look into it more than just whatever you decide to say.

• 44:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And he feels like he thought he was doing a great job, too. I mean, he went through all these steps. He plants the notes. He steals these shoes. He's digging all these holes. He's, he planned this out to a T in hopes that he would get away with it. And now looking at the full picture, it's like, how did you think that this was going to play out?

• 44:28Danielle LaRock?

  Did you think the cops would just be like, oh, God, so sorry. Yeah, that's messed up. We're going to do absolutely no follow up, no DNA testing, no analysis of the crime scene.

• 44:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  We're not going to look for anything. You don't seem suspicious.

• 44:40Danielle LaRock?

  But you know what I mean? I'm just lost as to why in the world he would think.

• 44:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And he seemed, he did crack pretty quickly. Pretty much as soon as police started asking him questions, he was like, you got me. Like, it seems like as soon as he had to face any accountability, he had no story that could hold up against their questions because they're like, as soon as they started asking questions, he, and I don't think he folded because he felt bad. I think it was more he folded because he, like what you're saying, he had no plan from there. I don't think he ever expected that someone would question him. Like, he would come off as a victim.

• 45:19Danielle LaRock?

  Right. Oh, yes. Yeah.

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• 45:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  But his motive, as he later explained, had nothing to do with any outside cults or any affiliation with that. He told police that he was frustrated that he and Carolyn did not spend enough time together. He wanted to isolate her in the bush so they could be together for several days instead of just a few hours because their parents always kind of told them when they could hang out. He believed that in that situation, she might agree to marry him sooner or agree to have sex with him.

• 46:29Danielle LaRock?

  And there it is.

• 46:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  He's like, I just need more time with her. Our parents are getting in the way. She's so young that they only let a certain amount of time with me. If I get her alone for days in a vulnerable position after a traumatic event, maybe she'll marry me and have sex with me.

• 46:44Danielle LaRock?

  I just, I really don't even have words for that right now because it's so deeply upsetting.

• 46:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  I agree.

• 46:50Danielle LaRock?

  And again, where's, where's the fault? What is the plan from there? You know?

• 46:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, why? Why would you do this? You've just traumatized someone for no reason.

• 47:01Danielle LaRock?

  For the rest of her life, even if, even if it went his way, for some reason, he got away with it and investigators just kind of wrote him off and it was what it was. She is still going to be deeply disturbed for the rest of her life.

• 47:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Hundred percent.

• 47:21Danielle LaRock?

  And she's not just gonna be like, you know what? I could really go for right now? Sex with you all the time. That is not gonna happen. That wouldn't have happened.

• 47:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, you just kidnapped me. I thought I was gonna die.

• 47:33Danielle LaRock?

  Well, even like, yeah, like even if, what I'm trying to say is even if she believed that it was some random attackers and for whatever reason, they were never found, Julian was also a victim of this. For him to believe in his mind that she would just be like, wow, that was crazy. Anyway, let's get down to it.

• 47:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love you so much.

• 47:57Danielle LaRock?

  Get married and let's go have all the sex you want and fuck my parents and all this other stuff like that is so delusional. And it just goes to show that he had no, no thought into anyone but himself in this.

• 48:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  It kind of reminds me, and this is a little bit off track, but it kind of reminds me of this video that was going around and I think it's real, maybe it's not, but it seems pretty real, is that this guy staged a proposal for his wife and the way he did it was he had his friends driving in a box truck in front of them while they were driving and then they stopped in the middle of the road while they were on the back road and a bunch of masked men got out, smashed the car with like crowbars and grabbed her hu- her boyfriend and pulled him into the back of this box truck and shut it like they were gonna drive off. And then they reopen it and he has like a ring and flowers and jumps out and proposes

• 48:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  to her and she is like bawling her eyes out so traumatic, like the worst experience of her life. She just thought the, the glass is smashed all around her. She's like covered in glass. She just thought her boyfriend was being kidnapped and now he's like on one knee proposing to her and she's just like hysterically crying.

• 49:16Danielle LaRock?

  You know, I would love to believe that is fake, but I believe that's true. I would believe that's true.

• 49:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  It looked real, like the video looked, her reaction did not look like something that you could fake.

• 49:27Danielle LaRock?

  Again, what is, okay, that dude, what do you think she's gonna say for the rest of time? How did you guys, when did you guys get married? Like, how was the proposal? Like, how, you know, it's like.

• 49:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  What are you thinking?

• 49:41Danielle LaRock?

  What are you thinking?

• 49:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 49:44Danielle LaRock?

  Don't, this is a PSA to everybody listening. Whoever wants to marry me, never do that to me. Never propose to me in any sort of way like that. I don't even want to be proposed to in front of a single other person, let alone think I'm fearing for my life and also.

• 50:02Danielle LaRock?

  My boyfriend.

• 50:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Danielle LaRock?

  It's just like, what? I don't know.

• 50:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Don't traumatize me to try to make me love you more. That's

• 50:09Danielle LaRock?

  Thank you.

• 50:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Literally

• 50:10Danielle LaRock?

  Yes.

• 50:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Insane. Yeah. Well, um, of course, when this all comes out, they charge him. And in August of 2009, the case finally went to court. Julian had been out on bail until then, which he allegedly got in exchange for police cooperation and a taped confession, though the cops involved denied that they offered him bail because of this. In addition to Carolyn's testimony, Carolyn's father and brother also testified along with Julian's brother-in-law Joshua, who had found some receipts in the Bouchard's house from recent purchases. Among those were a jar of peanut butter and four packets of the coconut that they had found, the dried coconut, along with a rope, gloves, and a toothbrush.

• 50:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Nurse Anne Marie Brewer, who conducted the initial medical exam on Carolyn and Julian at the police station, also testified, saying she was unable to find any mark on Julian's head that would show that he had a blow that was able to knock him out.

• 51:10Danielle LaRock?

  Wait, so where did all that blood come from?

• 51:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't know.

• 51:13Danielle LaRock?

  Did I make that up, or did you say?

• 51:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  He did have blood all over his face. And I don't know.

• 51:17Danielle LaRock?

  Probably the deer.

• 51:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 51:18Danielle LaRock?

  Probably slaughtered a deer somewhere.

• 51:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or had like, or maybe it wasn't even real blood or something. I didn't get that information, but that's a really good question. And he had like a really small

• 51:29Danielle LaRock?

  Clearly it was fake. It's just

• 51:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  He had like a tiny little cut, but nothing that would be what Carolyn saw.

• 51:36Danielle LaRock?

  He didn't even commit to the whole thing.

• 51:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Yeah. There remained no evidence that deer poachers or satanic cults were involved in the kidnapping in any way. Even Julian's own defense attorneys didn't present these theories before the jury, since there was no motive, no demand for ransom, and no evidence of anyone else being involved. Julian was found guilty of both kidnapping and making a false report to police by a jury. After hearing the evidence about how Carolyn was restrained and transported against her will, the court agreed that there was an overwhelming case against the accused. His bail was extended to facilitate the preparation of psychological reports, and the sentencing date was scheduled for mid-September.

• 52:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  On September 18th, 2009, however, Julian didn't show up in court for his sentencing date. He was nowhere to be found. Not long after authorities began searching for him, he was apprehended in Singapore after attempting to flee the country using a fake Indian passport.

• 52:38Danielle LaRock?

  What did his family think of all this?

• 52:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  Do you know? Sure that they were... I didn't see any outward statements from their families, but I imagine that they were pretty appalled by what was happening. And the context for this too is that he was using a fake Indian passport to leave the country, but Julian was actually born in Germany originally. So he concocted this plan that he would just go back to Germany and flee Australia to avoid any conviction. And of course, on his layover there, which from Australia was Singapore, he was caught by authorities.

• 53:20Danielle LaRock?

  God, I don't know. And I just have to say, the reason I ask like what his family was thinking in all of this, I would assume, based on their initial reaction when this whole thing started to unfold, I would assume that they're extremely upset and kind of like, I don't... You know, you feel bad for the family because they're also just as taken aback and going through it. But there are those, every once in a while, you never know. And I'm just, I'm pointing specifically to Brian Landry and his family following the Gabby Petito case and, you know, so...

• 54:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Their backs and protect them even under the worst circumstances that they could be doing.

• 54:06Danielle LaRock?

  Right. So I just wanted to, I mean, not that it makes a huge difference. I just wanted to know if they were in any way helping him, assisting him, harboring him, helping facilitate.

• 54:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Not from what I found in research. I'm not saying that that's not possible, but nothing that I found indicated that.

• 54:27Danielle LaRock?

  I imagine they're heartbroken and feel so bad for his actions.

• 54:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 54:34Danielle LaRock?

  You know, but.

• 54:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  I agree. Well, to go back into the part where he is using this fake Indian passport. If you're thinking, how could he use a fake Indian passport? Because for context, he was white. He had blonde hair and blue eyes. He actually showed up at the airport using fake tanner and dyed his hair and eyebrows black. So he was trying to change his race.

• 55:01Danielle LaRock?

  A fake Indian passport or fake passport, period.

• 55:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't know.

• 55:06Danielle LaRock?

  I'm so out of touch when people say things like this. I, my brain totally has no idea how that is even possible. It's just like when people are like, yeah, on the dark web. I'm like, how do you get to the dark web? Do you Google it or something?

• 55:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I have no idea.

• 55:23Danielle LaRock?

  How does one?

• 55:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  How do you find it? Not that I'm trying to get there, but where?

• 55:26Danielle LaRock?

  You know what I mean? I'm just like.

• 55:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Who told you of it to even know of it, you know? Where are these connections?

• 55:32Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it's kind of like when people are like, yeah, I just got, I don't know, like cocaine. I'm like, from who? Who would you know that has cocaine?

• 55:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Who, how do you start that conversation?

• 55:43Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. I don't know.

• 55:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Well, he was caught and he was taken back to Australia and he was sentenced to seven years and three months for kidnapping Carolyn. But he was also given an additional six months for attempting to flee the country. While imprisoned at the Fulham prison, Julian appealed his case and it went before the Supreme Court of Victoria in 2011. He and his lawyers argued that his sentence was excessive and that his status as a protected prisoner was making his sentence even more difficult. He also appealed his conviction alleging that he wasn't read his rights before he spoke with the police and ultimately confessed, which led to a miscarriage of justice. So he's like, they didn't read my rights. It doesn't count.

• 56:28Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, forget all the other stuff that I admitted to.

• 56:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And after he claimed that they investigated it and it was completely untrue, they did read him his rights. Also, Julian's confessions were video recorded. So his argument that he didn't know what he was confessing to didn't bear any weight. They could just re-watch it and see that he was fully in his right mind and re-see everything that he said.

• 56:52Danielle LaRock?

  Again, we're in 2008.

• 56:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  We have technology.

• 56:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Uh, so of course he lost his appeal. Prosecutors denied his claim, saying it was an adequate sentence for the long-lasting trauma he inflicted on Carolyn. The maximum term for his offense was actually 25 years. So the fact that he got seven years and three months plus the six months was actually pretty lenient, considering what they could have given him. After serving out his sentence in the Australian prison, Julian had his visa revoked and was extradited back to Germany. Although he was born there, his family moved to Australia when he was one-year-old and he had very few connections to his birth country. But because he never actually went through the process to get Australian citizenship, he was stripped of his residency immediately after his prison sentence.

• 57:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  As far as we know, he's still there, but I couldn't find any confirmed reports of what he's been doing since then or for the past decade. And for Carolyn, she seems like she's pretty much gone off-grid after what happened to her, which I think makes a lot of sense. And I'm sure she's just avoiding the public eye for privacy reasons. So both of them after this kind of don't really know where they're at.

• 58:12Danielle LaRock?

  Holy shit. And they were, so she was

• 58:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Seventeen.

• 58:16Danielle LaRock?

  Seventeen in 2008.

• 58:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 58:19Danielle LaRock?

  So she's

• 58:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Our age, she's our age.

• 58:21Danielle LaRock?

  A little bit younger than us, right?

• 58:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  I was seventeen in 2008, so.

• 58:25Danielle LaRock?

  I was not.

• 58:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  You were eighteen.

• 58:28Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so, yeah. Wow. Oh, my God. Carolyn, if you ever hear this, feel for you. And that's an unbelievable, I mean, again.

• 58:40Danielle LaRock?

  I feel like on one hand, this is so outlandish and I can't wrap my mind around it. But on the other hand, I'm unsurprised that a man would think that that would work out for him. In some weird warped version of his reality.

• 59:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's just so upsetting. And I kind of at the beginning, I wanted to talk about the trust of the people that you are going on these adventures with and being in the outdoors with. Why it's so, uh, why it can really change your whole relationship with the outdoors. And that was the thing with this story that I think makes it so disturbing is she truly trusted him. She thought she was out for a romantic picnic. And how many times have we been with a significant other where they say, let's go on this great hike, let's go for this picnic, let's, let's go swimming, whatever that is. And all it's supposed to be is a really fun day in the outdoors. And the fact that he took that trust that he had with her clearly,

• 59:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  and turned it into such a horrific, traumatic experience of her life, I just think is why this case feels so awful.

• 59:53Danielle LaRock?

  Well, thank you so much for sharing it because I haven't heard a story in quite some time that was trying to make a cult a scapegoat. Especially a satanic cult a scapegoat. I feel like a lot of those cases happened in during the satanic panic era of the seventies, eighties. And this feels so modern for that to be the case, the case, you know what I mean? It's just, I feel like that had its time and we have understood that that didn't have any sort of legs to the argument.

• 1:00:31Danielle LaRock?

  And now here it is in this situation.

• 1:00:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Trying to be used.

• 1:00:35Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Danielle LaRock?

  Well, what a piece of shit. I don't know what else to say. I hope he's having an awful day in Germany, wherever he is. Again, also, it's like, weren't you trying to go to Germany? He's like, I don't have family there. I haven't been there since I was one. And I'm sad. It's like, yeah, well, get out of here. Australia doesn't want you.

• 1:00:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Well, on that note, we, that is the end of the episode. If you are watching on YouTube, then you have had the joy of watching Danielle with her dog in her lap and it's so cute. I can't even stand it. I'm so jealous right now. Like, I wish I was you right now.

• 1:01:16Danielle LaRock?

  You would. I've had a lot of messages of people asking how jealous you are of the situation. And I do have to say that you would thrive in this type of environment. I mean, he won't leave me alone and not in but it's not in an annoying way. He's not whiny and crying and

• 1:01:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  He just wants to be with you.

• 1:01:40Danielle LaRock?

  He's just, his love language is quality time and physical touch. He doesn't like treats. He's not interested in toys. He doesn't really, you know what I mean? He just kind of, he's not very independent. He just kind of really wants love and affection.

• 1:01:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love that. Me too.

• 1:01:58Danielle LaRock?

  So I think you guys would be great for each other.

• 1:02:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Give him to me.

• 1:02:05Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, well, thanks for sharing your story. I guess he is our, Noah is our palate cleanser for the episode, unless you have something else to share, but we can leave it at that.

• 1:02:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I think Noah's gonna bring the joy today.

• 1:02:24Danielle LaRock?

  He's just slept in about five to 12 different positions throughout this entire, he keeps shifting and then just falling right back asleep.

• 1:02:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'd love like a clip of just like

• 1:02:35Danielle LaRock?

  All his movements.

• 1:02:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  You in all his different positions throughout the whole episode.

• 1:02:42Danielle LaRock?

  All right. Well, thank you, everyone for joining. We'll see you next week. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

• 1:02:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  But watch your back.

• 1:02:49Danielle LaRock?

  Bye.

• 1:02:52Danielle LaRock?

  Thanks for joining us for another episode. We hope you learned something new and have another location to put on your list. If you want more NPAD content, make sure to follow along with our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark. For more stories just like this one with the added bonus of exclusive content, you can join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. If you prefer to watch our episodes, head over to our YouTube channel. And if you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform.

• 1:03:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Taking them back to his property where they could get immediate, taking them back to his property where they could get immediate assistance.

• 1:03:39Danielle LaRock?

  It's not a hard word or sentence.

• 1:03:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  The farmer stopped and helped them taking, and it's not a quick, it's not a quick initiation, why can't I, fuck it. She saw a man completely covered by a balaclava, balaclava, balaclava. She saw a man completely covered by a balaclava.

• 1:04:05Danielle LaRock?

  The bloopers are gonna be insane for this.

• 1:04:12Danielle LaRock?

  It's okay. At least you didn't say baklava, because that's what I do.

• 1:04:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  I almost did.

• 1:04:18Danielle LaRock?

  He's covered in baklava. It's insane.

• 1:04:24Danielle LaRock?

  She's never seen anything like it.

• 1:04:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's crazy. Why wouldn't you just eat it? Why are you covered in it?

• 1:04:29Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

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