793 Mark Manson: What People Don't Tell You about Success

THE SUBTLE ART OF NOT GIVING UP. When you accomplish your dream, you think it’s going to be amazing. But it means you don’t have a dream anymore. You have to reinvent yourself. This may sound like a first-world problem, but it’s a common struggle. When you no longer have a big goal, life seems pointless. You might be living large, but you lack purpose. On this episode of The School of Greatness, I dive deep into how to motivate yourself after you accomplish your dreams with an incredible bestselling author: Mark Manson. Mark Manson is a NYTimes bestselling author, blogger, and internet entrepreneur. He writes about big ideas and gives life advice that doesn’t suck. Mark Manson's articles have been published and quoted in CNN, BBC News, Business Insider, and more. Mark wrote The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, a book that had the kind of success that only happens every five years. But he has continued writing and growing even though what he does next will probably never reach the same level. Mark says that you don’t need to crush each day. You just need to slowly find new dreams. So get ready to learn how to keep reaching for new goals when you think you’ve reached the top on Episode 793. Some Questions I Ask: How do you handle knowing you will never reach the same success again? (5:00) How does someone develop a sense of hope? (18:00) How do you create pain for yourself when you have “first world problems?” (24:30) In This Episode You Will Learn: The thing people don’t tell you about success (11:00) How values can help motivate you (20:00) About the “Goldilocks amount of pain,” you need in your life (23:00) Why overcommitting is actually good (46:30) How to delegate (50:00) Follow me on: Instagram @LewisHowes Twitter @LewisHowes Facebook @LewisHowes Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is episode number 793 with number one New York Times bestselling author, Mark Manson.

• 0:09Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  Les Brown said, "Your goals are the roadmaps that guide you and show you what is possible for your life." Super excited about this episode. We've got Mark Manson in the house. He's a New York Times bestselling author, blogger, and entrepreneur. His mega hit book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving Up was a massive worldwide bestseller, selling almost 2 million copies in the first year alone. I believe it's up to 7 million copies sold now. It's called The Self-Help Book for People Who Hate Self-Help. And recently, actor Will Smith discovered the book and recruited Mark to support him on his future book. So now they're

• 1:18Speaker 00

  writing one together. And Mark also has a new book out right now. And in this episode, we talk about what people don't tell you about success and how to handle success when you have it. Mark's journey working with Will Smith behind the scenes and some incredible stories about Will. Where you can find hope when you've had a big breakdown or setback. What Mark calls the Goldilocks formula for pain and how to prevent burnout in work and life. It seems like so many people are stressed and overworked these days. So how do you avoid this while chasing big goals and big dreams? Very excited. Make sure to let me know that you're listening. Tag me on Instagram and you can tag Mark Manson as well over

• 2:03Speaker 00

  there and let us know what you think. I'm sure he would love to hear from you. LewisHowes.com/793. Big thank you to our sponsors and I am so excited about this interview. Without further ado, let me introduce you to the one and only Mark Manson.

• 2:23Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. We've got the legendary Mark Manson in the house, my man. Good to see you, brother.

• 2:30Mark Manson?

  Good to be back.

• 2:30Lewis Howes?

  Super pumped you're back on because when we had you on about a year and a half ago, I think, year, year and a half ago, the book had done like 2 million copies.

• 2:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 2:40Lewis Howes?

  And now you tell me 7 and 1/2 million worldwide, is that the number?

• 2:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, 7 and 1/2 million worldwide.

• 2:44Lewis Howes?

  So for those who haven't seen Subtle Art of Not Giving a [BLEEP], the book is everywhere, every bookstore, every Target, Costco, airports, everywhere you go, you see the book.

• 2:55Mark Manson?

  I mean, if you were on a camel in Nepal, you'd probably...

• 2:58Lewis Howes?

  You'd see it. Someone would have it in their backpack, they're like, "Screw life, screw the 905."

• 3:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's everywhere.

• 3:03Lewis Howes?

  So congrats on all the success.

• 3:05Mark Manson?

  Thanks, man.

• 3:05Lewis Howes?

  7 and 1/2 million copies. How many people have sold over 7 million copies of a book? It's probably like a, less than 1,000 books.

• 3:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I have no idea. I think it's, I saw a list once of all the 10 million copies sold books in the last like 20 years, and there was only like 8 of them or something.

• 3:26Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 3:27Mark Manson?

  So...

• 3:27Lewis Howes?

  You could hit there in the next year or two, probably.

• 3:29Mark Manson?

  Hopefully, fingers crossed.

• 3:30Lewis Howes?

  It's incredible, man.

• 3:32Mark Manson?

  You never know. I don't, I try not to like...

• 3:34Lewis Howes?

  Project.

• 3:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I try not to get too attached to it.

• 3:37Lewis Howes?

  Are you seeing week after week, sales are growing still, or is it kind of steady?

• 3:41Mark Manson?

  They started, they peaked, I would say, mid last year. Like, yeah, mid or early 2018.

• 3:50Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of slowly like coming down.

• 3:51Mark Manson?

  So now they're like, very gradually coming down. Like now I'm, I think like 30 on Amazon, whereas before I was like 10.

• 3:58Lewis Howes?

  So as opposed to 100,000 a week, it's like 70,000 copies a week.

• 4:02Mark Manson?

  I wish.

• 4:05Lewis Howes?

  But at some point, you were doing that probably, right?

• 4:07Mark Manson?

  You know, holiday season gets really good.

• 4:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:09Mark Manson?

  But, um, yeah, I mean, it's... It's still doing super well.

• 4:13Lewis Howes?

  That's right.

• 4:14Mark Manson?

  I mean, it's still on the Times list and everything.

• 4:15Lewis Howes?

  It's amazing. How many weeks on the list?

• 4:17Mark Manson?

  Like 120?

• 4:18Lewis Howes?

  120 weeks on the New York Times list.

• 4:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:20Lewis Howes?

  Crazy. Is there any other book? I guess Five Love Languages?

• 4:24Mark Manson?

  Oh, Five Love Languages has been-

• 4:25Lewis Howes?

  Like 400 weeks?

• 4:26Mark Manson?

  Forever, forever, yeah. I mean, there's some, like Gladwell's stuff was-

• 4:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:30Mark Manson?

  You know?

• 4:31Lewis Howes?

  It's amazing.

• 4:31Mark Manson?

  I don't, yeah.

• 4:32Lewis Howes?

  It's amazing. Yeah, I had Rachel Hollis on and she's, you know-

• 4:35Mark Manson?

  She's killing-

• 4:36Lewis Howes?

  She's one and two on the New York Times list-

• 4:37Mark Manson?

  She's killing it.

• 4:38Lewis Howes?

  Recently for her new book and I think she sold 3 million copies or something of her book in a year, which is-

• 4:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Lewis Howes?

  Crazy.

• 4:44Mark Manson?

  I, I feel like, so when my next one comes out, I feel like her and I are gonna like just monopolize-

• 4:51Lewis Howes?

  The whole Times list.

• 4:52Mark Manson?

  Just every list.

• 4:53Lewis Howes?

  First four books will be you guys.

• 4:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah, in some order.

• 4:56Lewis Howes?

  It's amazing, man. I wanted to ask about this because we were talking before we started recording about the Liz Gilbert conversation, how she had this TED Talk, I think it was, a while ago about how when she Eat, Pray, Love came out, I think it sold 10 million copies-

• 5:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Lewis Howes?

  And she had this realization that her best work is behind her. And maybe it's not her best work, but her best selling work.

• 5:19Mark Manson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:19Lewis Howes?

  And we were saying how there's nothing that prepares you, one, for being a huge success-

• 5:25Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 5:25Lewis Howes?

  And blowing up. You wanted it to be, but you weren't really sure that it would be this big.

• 5:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:32Lewis Howes?

  And then, two, how do you handle almost knowing that it's gonna be so hard to recreate the same success or greater-

• 5:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:40Lewis Howes?

  For the rest of your life?

• 5:42Mark Manson?

  Well, you, you just accept that you're not. Maybe I will, but I can't. You just have to accept. You know, like a book like this and a book like Eat, Pray, Love, like it's such a-

• 5:54Mark Manson?

  It's not even once in a lifetime, you know, it, it's, books like this come around once every five years. It's basic, it's, it's like getting struck by lightning twice in a row. And so, if you aim to do it twice, you're just gonna drive yourself insane. Because there's just so much that's outside of your control. And so for me, what actually, what, kind of- Got me out of the fetal position every day was just accepting that, you know, it's like, I'm probably never gonna have a book that's gonna do that well. I'm still gonna do very well. My other books can sell very well and can be great and can help a lot of people. You can't get too attached to that number because you're just,

• 6:35Mark Manson?

  you're gonna torture yourself for the rest of your life. So yeah, I just, I had to learn to let go of it. I had to learn to be like, you know, it's great that it did that. I'm extremely proud of it, but it's gotta move on, gotta find the next thing.

• 6:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 6:50Mark Manson?

  The new challenge.

• 6:51Lewis Howes?

  I think of the Olympic gymnast, like this 15 year old Olympic gymnast that wins the gold medal.

• 6:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:59Lewis Howes?

  Where it's like, your greatest moment where a billion people watched you when you're 14, 15, 16 years old.

• 7:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Lewis Howes?

  You're on the cover of every magazine. You're the, the talk of every talk show when you win the medal. And then what do you do the rest of your life?

• 7:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Lewis Howes?

  You will never recreate that and you did this at 15, 16, 17. And how, how does someone like that who has such a big success, accept yourself? You know, it sounds easy. You just have to accept, but how do you really, how do you accept yourself? And this is like first world problem. Like, oh, you.

• 7:31Mark Manson?

  Oh, totally.

• 7:32Lewis Howes?

  You won the gold medal of, as an author.

• 7:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:35Lewis Howes?

  How do you, but you're gonna live a long life, you know, is the goal.

• 7:39Mark Manson?

  And I'm gonna write a dozen more books.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 7:41Mark Manson?

  And some of them will flop and others will be bestsellers. And so if everything, if subtle art is just always my metric, I've got a lot of decades of like misery in front of me, you know? It's just, you have to be realistic about it. And I think the other thing too is, is understanding that I did some mental jujitsu and I was asking myself, what's more valuable to the world? Is writing a book that? Affects a million people a little bit? Or 10,000 very profoundly? Deeply. You know, who's to say which one of those two things is better? Or more important, more valuable?

• 8:23Mark Manson?

  Sure, selling a million copies is sexier. You know, it gets you more attention, you do more interviews. But there's a strong argument that affecting 10,000 people very deeply is arguably a more valuable contribution to the world. And so I started thinking of things in that way. It took me a long time to kind of detach myself from that. Because it's, I think, when you're starting out as a writer, and this is probably true with podcasting and everything, it's like you love seeing the numbers go up. You know, it's like every year, the number is higher than the year before. And it feels good, it motivates you, you feel inspired. You're like, hell yeah, I'm growing, I'm getting better.

• 9:05Mark Manson?

  And at some point, though, like, once that number gets high enough, you gotta let go of it. You just, you gotta let go of it. Because it's not sustainable, once it's that high. You're gonna run out of oxygen. It was a difficult process to kind of get back to like, okay, I need to write a book. Step one, write a book I love. Because when I started, so this next book, Everything is [BLEEP]. I started out, I was like, alright, you know, I gotta, I gotta keep the train going, you know? And so I like started trying to write stuff that, you know, I thought subtle art readers were gonna really love. And, um, and yeah, it just, it felt very empty. It started to feel like, like a job, which- Forced. Yeah, which I didn't become an author to have a job.

• 9:49Mark Manson?

  I became an author, so, you know, I can do what I love. And, and I just kept scrapping it. I'm like, no, no, no, this isn't going well. And eventually I did just get back to like, okay, I need to write for myself first. Yeah. Then, once I have a book that I'm proud of, that I think is great, then I can look at it and say like, okay, like, how can we, you know, maybe change this, or market this, so that it'll sell a lot of copies? You know, that's step two. But step one, it always has to be, in a creative process, it always has to be about yourself first. And, um-

• 10:26Mark Manson?

  Otherwise, it's just, it's not art anymore. It's not, it kills the meaning.

• 10:31Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. So you, you went through a process of huge success, but it also sounds like a little sadness. And forcing yourself to try to create the next hit because of the pressure from publisher or whatever you had and the deal you had.

• 10:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  And not being satisfied with the results you were creating.

• 10:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, there was definitely external pressure, you know, publisher and everybody, but there was a lot of internal, you know,

• 10:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 10:57Mark Manson?

  I want to see my number go up. I want my 2019 to be bigger than my 2018. And it's at a certain point, you can't control that anymore. The other thing that happened, and it's funny because I think it was around the time I was here. Because I think, I think we talked like a year after it was out or something, a year and a half after it was out. I actually got really bummed out, which is something I thought I was insane at the time. This is one of those things people don't tell you about success is that if you have this dream for like your whole life, and then you accomplish that dream, you don't have a dream anymore. And that's terrifying because it's, you wake up and you're like, oh crap, what do I do with myself?

• 11:40Mark Manson?

  You know, it's like, okay, I got a lot of money and I got a lot of fans, but like, I don't know what to dream for anymore. And so I went through this period for about six months where I was just like, really like, wow, man, what's the point of all this? You know, like what, I worked so hard for 12 years to get to this point. And what, just to play Zelda all day? Like, is that, is that it? You know, is this it? I'm 33, you know, like, is this really all it's gonna be?

• 12:12Lewis Howes?

  Because you'd written how many articles for your website?

• 12:14Mark Manson?

  Hundreds, thousands. I started in, in 07.

• 12:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 12:20Mark Manson?

  Online and.

• 12:23Mark Manson?

  So yeah, and it took, the way I describe it is that it took time to find new dreams, new things to, new visions for like the future that I want for myself. And it's funny because since I went through that, I've got, I've got a group of friends who are like in the startup world and out in New York. I know a couple of guys who have like exited, had really successful exits.

• 12:50Lewis Howes?

  They go through depression also or like a sadness.

• 12:53Mark Manson?

  And yeah, I remember talking to one of my buddies about it and I was like, yeah, man, I'm like, I'm really bummed out and I feel insane, like I feel like a crazy person. And he was like, oh yeah, that's normal, you know? He's like, yeah, startup guys go through that when they exit their company. Cause it's, he's like, yeah, you work for some, you wake up every single day for 10 years for a certain reason and then that reason's gone. And so you just lay in bed and you're like, well shit, what am I gonna do today?

• 13:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, after you spend the money on a few fancy toys or the trips or whatever, then you're like, okay, now what's my purpose?

• 13:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's fun for like a month, you know? It's, it's take the wife to Paris, you know, go to a fancy restaurant or two, take your parents somewhere and then, and then you just kind of sit on the couch and you're like, now what?

• 13:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think dreams are some of the most important things and when we don't have a dream, we don't have a mission or a purpose in life. And I remember a similar feeling when I was playing, when I was doing the decathlon in college. It was my goal to be an All-American.

• 13:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:55Lewis Howes?

  So I had to qualify for the national championship first and that was a process of qualifying. And then I got to the national championship and I had a place in the top eight to be an All-American.

• 14:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Lewis Howes?

  So my whole goal was like, how do I get number eight? Cause I was brand new at the decathlon. I just started practicing six months prior. And I was like, I just need to get eighth place and it doesn't matter.

• 14:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:16Lewis Howes?

  No one's gonna know if I'm eighth or first, it's just All-American.

• 14:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:19Lewis Howes?

  And I remember I got eighth place. And I was on the podium and I got my, you know, trophy or whatever. And I was very emotional and I had these mixed feelings. And about 10 minutes after, I was really angry.

• 14:32Mark Manson?

  Really?

• 14:33Lewis Howes?

  My parents were there, my coaches, like it was a big celebration and I was at the dinner table. I just didn't want to be around anyone.

• 14:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Lewis Howes?

  I was kind of a jerk. I was just like, didn't want to look anyone in the eye. I was frustrated because I, I think I realized I didn't know what I was gonna do next.

• 14:46Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 14:46Lewis Howes?

  It's like everything I've been working for, so dedicated every morning, it happened and now what?

• 14:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Lewis Howes?

  And that's the scary thing.

• 14:53Mark Manson?

  Well, and, and it's some of that anger too, it's because when you do accomplish that goal or that dream, and it's like, let's be honest, the reality is never as nice as it was in your head.

• 15:06Lewis Howes?

  The feeling, you, you didn't really get the feeling that you were looking for.

• 15:09Mark Manson?

  Yes, yes. And it's, and you're the same person and you've got the same problems.

• 15:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:14Mark Manson?

  Same insecurities. And you just worked your ass off for this thing that's, you know, and it's gone within hours. You know, the feeling is gone.

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  You think it's gonna give you something?

• 15:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah, or change you in some way. And it's like, no, you wake up the next day and you're, you're the same dude.

• 15:30Lewis Howes?

  You still feel like a piece of crap and you're like, you still feel like you're trash or whatever it might be.

• 15:36Mark Manson?

  But it's funny because everything we're talking about, so I, I gotta fit the new book in here.

• 15:43Lewis Howes?

  Everything's [BLEEPed].

• 15:44Mark Manson?

  Everything is [BLEEPed] a book about hope. So kind of going back, bringing these two threads together.

• 15:52Mark Manson?

  I eventually reached the point where I was like, you know, I, I had pitched a bunch of book ideas to my publisher and they're like, oh, it's on brand and this is great, you know, it's gonna be a good follow-up or whatever. And it just, nothing was working. And then I, I reached that point where I'm like, I gotta go back to basics. I gotta write something that's true to myself. My formula through my whole career has always been.

• 16:13Mark Manson?

  My writing is basically just a very public form of therapy. So like whatever issues I'm going through, I write it out. And I write it out in such a way that, you know, hopefully other people can get something out of it as well.

• 16:27Lewis Howes?

  That's for me for the podcast too. I interview the people that I need the most help with.

• 16:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Lewis Howes?

  You know, on relationships or business or whatever.

• 16:33Mark Manson?

  Totally. And so I went back to him like, all right, I need, let's start out by writing about what I'm struggling with. And so that's where the whole theme of hope came in is it's like, I didn't know what to hope for anymore. And that strangely enough, that caused me to be just as depressed as low points in my life. Where I had no money and my girlfriend left me and I also had nothing to hope for. And so it made me realize that what's going on in the material world is totally not the point. It's a side effect. What matters is do we have that vision of hope in our mind? Do we see a possible future for us to step into that will make our lives better?

• 17:17Mark Manson?

  And as soon as you take away that vision, we don't know what to do with ourselves. And we despair essentially. So that's the starting point of the book is how we need to constantly be constructing these dreams and these visions for ourselves. And what happens when they're taken away? And how are they taken away?

• 17:36Lewis Howes?

  Or if we achieve them and they're no longer there.

• 17:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah, achieving them is one way of.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  Taking away.

• 17:41Mark Manson?

  Taking them away.

• 17:42Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that interesting?

• 17:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And then of course I get into all sorts of, sorts of other stuff, but it's, it's.

• 17:47Lewis Howes?

  So how does someone develop a sense of hope when they feel stuck? Or when they feel they've gone through a big breakdown in their life?

• 17:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:54Lewis Howes?

  You know, whether it be the relationship, the family, career, the money.

• 17:58Mark Manson?

  So I think that's where a lot of kind of the classic self-help advice comes in. You know, you start with something simple and small. You set small goals. You stair step, take one thing at a time. Start with yourself, treat yourself better, you know, get good sleep, eat a little bit better. You know, start with basic habits and goals. Yeah. And then they start to build upon themselves. And the funny thing was is that. It was the exact same with with my issue too. It's like, like I said, I basically just sat around and played Zelda for like three months. And like, and it was, it was strangely just like one of the most awful periods of my adult life. But I was like, I'm living the dream, right? This is the dream, right? You know, like trying to convince myself.

• 18:43Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 18:44Mark Manson?

  But yeah, it was the same thing. It's like, all right, man, get back in the gym. Take on some new projects. I told my agent, I'm like, just go find me something like anything, you know?

• 18:55Lewis Howes?

  Is that when Will Smith came about?

• 18:58Mark Manson?

  No.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  Go find me anything.

• 18:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah, go find me anything. She's like, oh, I got Will Smith for you. No, he came a little bit later, but it was, you know, I was working my way out of this, you know, by the time his people contacted me.

• 19:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, gotcha. So how, how, how do we develop a sense of hope for ourself? How do we, you know, create a new vision, a new dream, a new game plan?

• 19:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Lewis Howes?

  Moving forward in any moment that we feel stuck?

• 19:25Mark Manson?

  The two things that I talk about in the book is, one, you need to develop a sense of values. You need to essentially value something. So for you to have any vision of hope in the future, something needs to be

• 19:41Mark Manson?

  better or worthwhile, like it needs to be valuable.

• 19:45Lewis Howes?

  The life you're looking to create.

• 19:46Mark Manson?

  Yes, and it can be anything. It can be, you know, helping, helping out the kids at the local school. It can be building a company. It can be buying a new car, whatever. It's, but it's, something needs, you need to decide that something is more valuable than what you have today. And oddly, a lot of people struggle with that. They don't know which way to go. They don't know what a better life would look like.

• 20:10Lewis Howes?

  Or they want to do so many things that they do nothing.

• 20:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Lewis Howes?

  I've seen that also. It's like, well, I want to, I love this and that and all these other things. I don't know which direction to go.

• 20:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and so they, they don't go anywhere. So it's like, you got to pick that one thing that is kind of the central value in your life. And then the second component is that you need to feel that you're capable of getting there. If I decided that the goal of my life is to be the prime minister of

• 20:38Mark Manson?

  Checklist of Akia, you know, it's that's not gonna happen. That's just unrealistic. And so if you have this vision that is just completely detached from reality. It and you see this a lot. People will pick goals or dreams that are just so out there. That it gives them an excuse to not do anything. It's like, oh, well. There's no way I can make it anyway, so I might as well just. Sit around, you sit around and eat Doritos or whatever.

• 21:05Lewis Howes?

  Play Zelda all day.

• 21:06Mark Manson?

  Exactly. Exactly, exactly. It's like, I'm not gonna sell 10 million books again, so I'll play Zelda. So it's it's about finding a vision that can kind of bring both of those things together. It's about being realistic about who you are, where you are. And then also having a solid, making a solid decision about like, what is better in the world? What is a worthwhile pursuit for your life? So.

• 21:29Lewis Howes?

  That's the first kind of step is figuring out what that is for you, the the better value.

• 21:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:35Lewis Howes?

  But not being so unrealistic. But I think you also want to be like, you want to push yourself a little bit too, probably, right?

• 21:41Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 21:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Mark Manson?

  Cause then otherwise you're not improving.

• 21:44Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to do a safe thing.

• 21:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:46Lewis Howes?

  You probably want to do a little bit scary.

• 21:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:47Lewis Howes?

  Like, oh, that's challenging. Let me go after that.

• 21:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 21:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and and and one thing I talk about later on in the book is that there's kind of like. I think there's a, there's like a Goldilocks amount of stress and pain in our lives. If there's no pain in our lives. Then there's no sense, like you said, there's no sense of sacrifice, that there's anything valuable that we're working towards. And so then we lose hope, we lose meaning.

• 22:14Lewis Howes?

  So you're saying we we should experience pain on this process?

• 22:18Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 22:18Lewis Howes?

  How much pain should we experience?

• 22:20Mark Manson?

  Well, it's the Goldilocks thing. So it's if you have no stress or pain. Then everything is just gonna feel meaningless because you're not actually sacrificing. You know, you're you're not actually like giving anything up to achieve something. But if you have too much stress or pain, then you become traumatized. And you damage yourself. There's a sweet spot of like. You want enough stress and pain so that it gives you that sense of meaning and accomplishment. But you don't want too much that you give up and cave in.

• 22:55Mark Manson?

  And that's not simple. I mean, it's something.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  Kind of listening to your body, listening to your heart.

• 23:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  And make sure you're checking in with yourself every week.

• 23:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and the perfect metaphor is like working out. You know, it's like, if you go into the gym, you walk on the treadmill, like, we've all seen those people like come in the gym and like are walking like one mile an hour on the treadmill on their phone, you know, it's like, that's not a workout. You're not getting anything out of it. But at the same time, if you go in the gym and you just destroy yourself for hours.

• 23:26Lewis Howes?

  Can't walk for two weeks.

• 23:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah, you're gonna get injured, you're gonna, you know, it's gonna backfire. So it's the same thing with our psychology. If we're too pampered, if everything's too easy, if everything's given to us without any reward or effort, we essentially remove a sense of value from our lives. And that removes a sense of purpose. And so that kind of, that causes a crisis of hope. And people struggle with depression and anxiety and things like that.

• 23:51Lewis Howes?

  When things are too easy, we don't have as much hope is what you're saying.

• 23:54Mark Manson?

  Yep. Wow, yeah.

• 23:55Lewis Howes?

  So what are you doing now that you've got all these first world problems?

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Life is very comfortable, everyone wants to talk to you, Will Smith's knocking on your door to write books. You've got, you know, all the food and luxury in the world. How do you develop, how do you create pain for yourself?

• 24:14Mark Manson?

  I'm.

• 24:15Lewis Howes?

  It's almost like you have to force it.

• 24:17Mark Manson?

  You do. I mean, you really do, especially once you, and this is actually one thing I talk about in the book, is that as, because there's a little bit of a paradox going on in society today, which is, we're, by most metrics, we're safer, healthier, wealthier, living longer than ever in human history. There are fewer wars, there are fewer diseases.

• 24:42Mark Manson?

  Yet, everybody's like freaking out constantly, you know.

• 24:46Lewis Howes?

  Anxious, overwhelmed, stressed.

• 24:48Mark Manson?

  Depression, anxiety, yes.

• 24:49Lewis Howes?

  On medication.

• 24:50Mark Manson?

  Suicide, drug overdoses. Everything. And then you look at like all the political crap that's going on, you know, so as people are just, there's like this almost fever pitch thing happening in society, despite the fact that everybody, like, everything is actually the most comfortable it's ever been. And so one of my arguments is that. The more comfort and luxury we experience, the more we have to be selective. Like, we have to consciously choose our discomforts and our stresses. Back in the day, if you were like a farmer in the 1800s, or if you're like a subsistence farmer out in India, like, you don't have to worry about any of this stuff. You get up and work every day.

• 25:33Mark Manson?

  Your vision of hope is, I need to feed myself and my family, and I need to get up to work every day, or else we're all gonna starve. You know, so it's a very simple, it's very easy for that farmer to like find meaning in their life. But when you're like, living in a nice condo in LA, and you've got like, awesome opportunities happening, and cool new sushi restaurants opening everywhere, and awesome vacations down in Tulum, like-

• 26:01Lewis Howes?

  Postmates every day, just giving you-

• 26:04Mark Manson?

  Exactly, like, it gets, you have to seek out that stress. Because if you don't, if you don't pick those things to challenge and stress yourself, you're gonna start succumbing to all the little things. You know, you're gonna start throwing a fit if the Postmates guy doesn't bring enough forks. You know, you're like, this is bullshit.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Mark Manson?

  I'm gonna call the manager, like, you know, it's like, dude, that's not a real problem, you know? You need to start, and this is what I talked about in subtle art, you need to start picking your problems. So, I've really experienced this the last few years as my life gets even more luxurious and easier. Like, I have to be a lot more conscious about choosing my struggles, choosing what pain I want to put myself through in my life. Because if I don't, if I don't choose that pain, then I'm gonna be back on the couch playing Zelda.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What are the pains that you're choosing for yourself?

• 26:57Mark Manson?

  So, one thing I'm doing, I'm doing a speaking tour this summer, and that's terrifying. That's like, I think I'm doing like 14 cities, theaters with like a thousand people, hour-long talk.

• 27:11Mark Manson?

  I'm mortified. I'm like absolutely mortified, but it's good because it's like it's push. I'm pushing myself and I'm pushing like pushing my skills and my ideas. And we joke about Will Smith knocking on your door. Like dude, that's a lot of pressure, man. Like you get a guy like him and he comes to me and he's like, hey, man, I want to write a book about. I just turned 50. I want to write a book about my legacy. And it's like, that's on me, you know? It's like, don't fuck this up. But that's all good pressure. It's good stress and it's good, it's good fear. Because these are the fears that I want. These are, this is the stress that I want. And so I think it's just, it's so important today that I think as a culture, we're just getting away from that. Everybody wants to be coddled and protected all the time.

• 27:56Mark Manson?

  And it's like, you can't, like, not only can you not be coddled and protected all the time, but it will backfire. You know, the more you're protected, the more your feelings are always protected, the more sensitive you're going to get to every little thing that goes wrong in your life.

• 28:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think Jordan Harbinger, when I had him on, he said, don't protect your kids.

• 28:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:15Lewis Howes?

  He's like, don't keep your kids safe. Obviously, when you keep them safe, he's like, sure, don't protect them from their vulnerabilities. Like allow them to get stronger.

• 28:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:23Lewis Howes?

  Through the pain.

• 28:24Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  You know, and the stronger they become, the more resourceful they'll be.

• 28:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:28Lewis Howes?

  Independently.

• 28:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:29Lewis Howes?

  In the future. It's interesting because I think a lot of people want to play safe. And I'm always looking for ways personally to challenge myself physically, mentally, emotionally every day. Even if you just do a hard workout a day.

• 28:40Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 28:41Lewis Howes?

  Tiffany, who's running the video over here, she gets up at 5 a.m. and runs at least three miles every morning.

• 28:46Mark Manson?

  Jeez.

• 28:47Lewis Howes?

  And she posts about it and it inspires me. So I'm like, man, I missed my, did I miss my workout today? Damn, she's getting up at 5 a.m. and doing this workout. It's like, it's inspiring and that can be all you need to do for the day.

• 28:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:00Lewis Howes?

  You don't need to fricking crush every part of your day and lean into all this pain.

• 29:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Lewis Howes?

  Emotionally, physically, mentally, but if you focus on something every day where it's painful.

• 29:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:09Lewis Howes?

  You're like, I'd rather sleep in.

• 29:11Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 29:11Lewis Howes?

  For an hour. I'd rather not run this far. I'd rather not write this many pages of my new book. I'd rather just play games. Any way we can push ourselves just a little bit more is going to make us more fulfilled as well.

• 29:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 29:25Lewis Howes?

  So how did this Will Smith thing come about? You know, Subtle Art crushing, few million copies sold.

• 29:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Lewis Howes?

  And he just gets your cellphone and calls you.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  You reached out to him first?

• 29:36Mark Manson?

  No, no, no, no. So he's actually, he's been looking to do a book for a while.

• 29:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:40Mark Manson?

  And he read, I think his manager read Subtle Art, gave it to him, he read it and really liked it. So then he kind of tapped his team, said, yeah, go, let's talk to this guy. This was, I think it was late 2017. I was actually out here. I went down to Sony Studio. Well, first I had some phone calls and then I went down to Sony Studios, met with his team. And it was pretty intense. But it's, it, it makes sense because they're like checking my values, you know? It's like if he's going to share his life with me and we need to make sure that our values align. And so we got along, it went great. And then they told me, they're, they were like, okay, cool. So I think the next step is for you to actually like meet Will and see if you guys.

• 30:22Lewis Howes?

  Feel it out, yeah.

• 30:22Mark Manson?

  Get along well. And I was like, cool, awesome. And they said, you know, we'll, we'll be in touch. It's like, okay. Like four months go by.

• 30:30Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 30:31Mark Manson?

  Don't, don't hear anything.

• 30:32Lewis Howes?

  Crickets.

• 30:33Mark Manson?

  Crickets. I'm like, all right. And the whole time in my head, I'm like, all right, I'm not gonna, you know, don't count your eggs before they, your chickens before they hatch or whatever the saying is. It's like, I'm just not going to expect anything and I'll just be glad if it happens. So.

• 30:49Lewis Howes?

  So you're playing Zelda for four months?

• 30:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I'm like, please call Will, please call.

• 30:55Mark Manson?

  And so suddenly I get an email and they're like, like, hey, so Will wants to meet you. We want to fly you out to London. Cause he was doing the Aladdin movie.

• 31:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:05Mark Manson?

  And I was like, okay, cool. Yeah, just let me know when I'll check my schedule. And then they come back. This was like on a Tuesday and they come back.

• 31:11Lewis Howes?

  Tomorrow.

• 31:11Mark Manson?

  They're like Thursday, like two days from now.

• 31:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 31:15Mark Manson?

  And I was like, are you people insane? You know, it's, I had a conflict, you know, I had like an event or something. I'm like, I can't go. And they're like, oh, okay. And then like two months later, two months go by.

• 31:24Lewis Howes?

  Two months later, oh.

• 31:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And then, and then they come again and they're like, like, okay, so you're gonna, you're gonna fly out to Miami and you're gonna meet him. And this time I was ready. And they're like, you know, tomorrow. I'm like, cool, I'm in. Ticket never comes. And then we kept going through this for like months.

• 31:43Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 31:46Mark Manson?

  I actually haven't talked to them about it, but I'm pretty sure it was intentional. It was to see if I would basically be a prima donna. Like if I'd be like, this is bullshit. You don't respect my time. Like, how can you, like, how can we collaborate if you're not even gonna like? His life is so crazy and his schedule is so crazy. And like, he can literally just get on a plane and fly to another continent for an afternoon and then fly back. Like, that they need to make sure that I'm gonna be okay. You know, like, I'm, I'm not gonna take it personally if he gets on a plane and goes to Africa. And I'm like, just twiddling my thumbs on the runway. Like, like, I'm not gonna get upset about it.

• 32:27Mark Manson?

  So finally, about, after about six or eight months of this, they said, can you come down in two days? I'm like, yeah. Plane ticket comes through. Finally. And I'm like, alright, here we go. So I went down to Georgia and met him on, he was doing, he was on the set of Gemini Man. And, um, yep, he comes out, just fresh prince, man, same as ever. Having fun. Just goof, from Big kid. The first moment, he's just goofing off, like, just totally goofing, joking, laughing. Nicest guy in the world. And then, yeah, I ended up, I, I spent about four days with him. And, um, and it was no pressure, it was just, you know, talk, get to know each other.

• 33:12Mark Manson?

  And then at the end of those four days, it was actually funny, we were at, we were at dinner with like a group of like 10 people. And I'm sitting across from him like, like this, and we're all, we're just having like a nice, relaxed dinner. And all of a sudden, in the middle of the meal, I was going home like the next afternoon. In the middle of dinner, he just looks at me and he's like, so Mark, we got a book or what?

• 33:36Mark Manson?

  And I'm like, the whole room goes silent, and I'm like, oh shit. And I told him, I was like, well, I've got some ideas, but, you know, let me write them up and I'll show them to you in the morning. And he's like, alright, man, let's do it. And so, run back to my hotel room, and I'm like, shit, shit, shit, you know? One of my ideas. Yeah, yeah, it's like, okay, gotta, gotta come up with an idea. No, I, I did have a, I did have an idea that I felt really good about. So I went back to the hotel room, wrote it up, met him for breakfast, pulled out my laptop, showed him like a brief outline. Yeah, within 30 seconds, he was like, this is it. Wow. This is it, yeah, he's like, done. Wow.

• 34:16Lewis Howes?

  That's pretty inspiring.

• 34:17Mark Manson?

  It's crazy. It was absolutely, absolutely crazy.

• 34:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 34:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Lewis Howes?

  What can you share about the book and the interviews you've done with him and the whole process since that moment?

• 34:30Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 34:30Lewis Howes?

  Did you guys take it to a publisher right away? Did it take another eight months? I mean, what was the process like?

• 34:35Mark Manson?

  That was about a year ago. So we did publisher pitches in the summer. So he and I met up about once a month for three or four months just to get a proposal together, get like an outline, a proposal. For people who don't know, I know you know, the process of making a book is you you write out kind of like a 20 to 30 page proposal, which is you've got an outline, you have a sample chapter, you have maybe an introduction, and then you take it to all the publishers and they they bid on it. They give you, they offer you a certain amount of money or whatever.

• 35:07Mark Manson?

  So we did that and then he came here to New York over the summer and we did, we took all the publisher meetings and it was funny because it's

• 35:13Lewis Howes?

  Together you did it.

• 35:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah, we did it together.

• 35:15Lewis Howes?

  What was that like? Being in a room with him, just being like, huh?

• 35:20Mark Manson?

  No, it's being in the room with him, it's, I always tell my friends, it's like an alternate universe because it's just the, the attention, like the energy and the attention, just there's like this vortex around him. And any room that he goes into, I mean, part of it is just the level of his charisma, but part of it's the celebrity thing. Part of it's like if he goes into a hotel lobby, it's just bananas. People forget they're working, security guards like leave their posts to come take a self, you know, it's crazy. It gets, it's completely nuts. So the publisher meetings were really funny because a lot of them were like very, very starstruck. A lot of them brought like teams of like 12 people.

• 36:02Lewis Howes?

  Oh my God, just to meet him.

• 36:03Mark Manson?

  Just to meet him. And you're like

• 36:05Lewis Howes?

  Usually like four.

• 36:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and it's like, it's like, okay, these three people need to be here. Those nine definitely do not. But, you know, so it was a little bit of a circus. But it was, it was a hell of an experience. I mean, and you, you know this too. Like when you, when you and I pitched to a publisher, you know, you schlep out to New York, you get in a taxi, you go to their office, you like show up, you like, you're like, here's my idea. You know, you try to sell it to them and you, you get maybe 10 minutes at most, 15, and then you hop back in a taxi and you like go to another office. And, and it's, we basically just posted up in a penthouse in a hotel and they just shuttled all these publishers through.

• 36:50Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 36:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Lewis Howes?

  They came to you guys.

• 36:52Mark Manson?

  They came to us.

• 36:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that never happens.

• 36:55Mark Manson?

  We had multiple rounds of bidding. So I think like 23 publishers bid on it the first round. And then we took the top six and went to the second round. So it was just surreal. I mean, the whole time I was just like enjoying the ride.

• 37:11Lewis Howes?

  This is so much fun. No pressure on you.

• 37:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I'm just like.

• 37:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I'm gonna be writing it, but he's the guy, yeah.

• 37:17Mark Manson?

  Like, he'll sell it. He'll sell the shit out of it, so.

• 37:20Lewis Howes?

  What were the lessons you learned from an author perspective on how to approach publishers differently? Whether you're a big star like Will Smith or not, how could you take that lesson going into your next pitch alone?

• 37:33Mark Manson?

  So actually, one of the cool things about hanging out with Will is it's, I'm learning a lot from him too, along the way. And a lot of it's not stuff that's gonna be in the book. A lot of it's just kind of business sense type things. He's been in the entertainment biz for, since he was 17. And he's been at the top of music, TV, film, everything. And so one, I remember one time he was telling me, he said that after they did Bad Boys, or in the early 90s, when he was like, Bad Boys was like his, everybody remembers Independence Day, but Bad Boys was actually like his first feature film that like, kind of blew up. He said that after they did Bad Boys, him and Martin Lawrence,

• 38:17Mark Manson?

  he said that the studios were really unsure if they could, if it would sell well internationally. And, and so Will went to the studio and he was like, hey, man, any country you want me to go to? Like. I'm in, let me know. And so the studios started sending him to London, to Germany, to Russia, to South Africa. And he'd do every trip, you know, he'd hop on the plane, fly to London, do a premiere, do like 20 interviews, hop back on the jet, fly back to LA. He'd do that on the weekends while filming Fresh Prince. Wow. And he said that Martin Lawrence didn't want to do the traveling. And then he said that what he noticed when it came time to do the next movie, he start,

• 39:01Mark Manson?

  like, studios started giving him much nicer offers and giving him a lot more attention. And he said that what he learned is, he said that it's, being an actor, the job isn't the movie. He said the movie is only half of your job as an actor. The other half is you gotta go out and sell it to people. And I really took that to heart, because that's, it's a perfect, it's the same way in publishing. As an author. Totally. It's like, and there's so many authors out there who spend two years on their book, and then they're like, well, okay, I'll post it on Twitter, but why should I have to do anything? You know, you guys should go do it. And, uh, and so my, my approach, especially this time around, is like, this is part of the job, you know?

• 39:43Mark Manson?

  And even with Subtle Art, I, I kinda griped and complained a little bit, you know? It's like, man, I'm doing all these podcasts, and like, what the hell is my publisher doing for, you know, and it's like- What is this School of Greatness show? Yeah. Yeah, who's this Lewis guy? God, but- But now you're doing this tour. Yeah, I'm doing a tour, I'm doing, and, and it's, my attitude this time around has completely changed. It's like, this is part of the job. This is part of why they're paying me. Yeah. So, I flew out here to LA on my own dime. I'm doing like seven podcasts and YouTube shows on my own. I'm not asking for anything, I'm not like, not sitting around demanding more attention and- Sure. You know, it's like, no, this is part of the job, so- Luckily you got lots of dimes saved up.

• 40:27Lewis Howes?

  You can get out of here on your own time now.

• 40:30Mark Manson?

  I could do a few LA trips, yeah.

• 40:32Lewis Howes?

  So that's interesting. Yeah, I've heard him talk about that before where he's like known for being one of the people that stays the longest on like the

• 40:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah, the red carpet.

• 40:40Lewis Howes?

  The red carpets, like him and Tom Cruise would like have battles to see who could stay the longest to sign the most autographs, take the most photos and he would always lose, I guess, to Tom Cruise or something.

• 40:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:49Lewis Howes?

  He would stay there for 24 hours, just like taking photos until he saw Will Smith leave. That's cool. So that's, that's one big lesson. What else, what other lesson have you learned from him so far? Cause now you spent like 30 hours with him, I think you said.

• 41:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I've done a number of trips with him. There's a lot of little life things. You know, he told me it was funny because this fall, so when I was finishing like my book that's coming out next week, when I was finishing everything was fucked, I actually, let me back up for a second. So this fall, he

• 41:22Mark Manson?

  typical Will style, like just, I got an email from his manager saying like, hey, you wanna go, like, you wanna do a trip with Will next week? And I'm like, yeah, of course. Where are we going? And, and she's like, India. And then Dubai. And, oh, and he's gonna race like F1 cars. And I was like, okay, like I'm in, all right. So I end up like on like five days notice, I end up on this two week trip with Will to India and Dubai. And so I'm doing, I'm doing Will's book. I'm finishing my book. I'm doing this project for Audible. I'm doing like an Audible original and I'm running a website with 2 million readers.

• 42:04Mark Manson?

  And I'm in the middle of India with Will, you know, so and I'm like jet lagged out of my mind and, and so there was a, there was a few months this fall where I was probably the most stressed I've been since I started my business. Just not sleeping, constant anxiety, just working insane hours.

• 42:24Mark Manson?

  And so I'm like this huge ball of stress and I get on this plane and I'm in the middle of India with Will and, and so

• 42:29Lewis Howes?

  Private jet?

• 42:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah, well, once you get there, it's private jets. But so I'm sitting there on the jet with Will.

• 42:34Lewis Howes?

  So stressed out on the jet with Will. Yeah, yeah. My life is so hard.

• 42:41Mark Manson?

  But like, I'm sitting there with Will and we were talking about his career in the 90s. So he would film Fresh Prince during the week, fly somewhere to do some promotional thing on the weekends. And then during breaks in this, between the seasons is when he would, he would film his next movie.

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:58Mark Manson?

  So, I mean, he's just basically going seven days a week. Oh, and he's like, recording.

• 43:05Lewis Howes?

  Music.

• 43:06Mark Manson?

  Big Willie style and the soundtrack, The Men in Black and like all this stuff. So, I asked him, I, I kinda told him the situation I was in. And, and I, I asked him, I'm like, I, I told him, I said, I feel like I'm in kinda like one of those situations where I've got like movie, TV show and album going on at the same time. Except for me, it's book, book, audiobook.

• 43:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Mark Manson?

  All at the same time. And I was like, how the hell do you, do you do it? And, and he just kinda laughed and he's like, you know, you know what the trick is? I said, what? He's like, what you do is you just bite off more than you can chew. He said, agree to do more than you think is possible. And then you just go do it. And it's, it sounds so simple, but it was like one of those moments where just like a switch clicked in my brain. And I'm like, wow, that's crazy because you, like, we all know we're capable of doing so much more than we actually do. But the only way you can really tap into that is to just over commit. Like just over commit yourself and you find a way. Like you just find a way to do it.

• 44:11Mark Manson?

  And so he's like, yeah, man, you just bite off more than you can chew and start chewing it.

• 44:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. You probably eliminate a lot of the downtime that wastes time too. You're not playing video games for three hours a day.

• 44:22Mark Manson?

  No.

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  You're not watching TV, you're just focused.

• 44:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it, yeah, and it's purely out of necessity. Like it's just pure, like on that India trip, I was up at, I mean, I was jet lagged, but I was up at 4am writing my book for six hours before meeting up with him and then spending the afternoon with him, you know? And then when I would go back to my hotel at night, my team in the US was waking up. So I would check in with them on the website and then I'd go to bed. And then I'd wake up at four. Crank on my book for six hours, go meet up with Will, work with him for a few hours, go back to the hotel, check in with my team. And I did that the entire trip. And if you would ask me, like, if I was capable of doing that two years ago,

• 45:09Mark Manson?

  I would have been like, are you, are you insane? That's absolutely, but it's just, I see, when I'm with him, I see him do it. Like, he'll go film all day, and then he'll come back to the house and meet with his social media team and plan videos for that month until like 10 o'clock. And then he'll go to bed, and he'll be up at five, working out. And it's like, that's just, he's been doing that for 30 years.

• 45:36Lewis Howes?

  A machine, man.

• 45:37Mark Manson?

  For 30 years.

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  What about someone who's listening who says, well, it doesn't sound like a very balanced life? And that's gonna create overwhelm and burnout and stress.

• 45:45Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 45:46Lewis Howes?

  Is gonna, you know, ruin everything for me.

• 45:49Mark Manson?

  I think that's a really good point, because I've had periods in my life where I have worked kind of insane 16-hour days or whatever, and it's just exhausting and stressful and everything else in my life kind of falls apart. Whereas with him, he somehow does it like gracefully. And I think-

• 46:06Lewis Howes?

  He's got a family, he's married, he's got, yeah.

• 46:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and I think part of like, you know, just watching him do it, he's very, it's a few things. One, he's very good at delegating, and he has a really cool philosophy about that, actually. Um, he's really good at delegating. Two, he manages to kind of mix the things. Like, it's about, I think if you're doing something that really energizes you, that you love, and then you do that with people that you love, then there's not really a need for balance.

• 46:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's true. You're doing everything you want.

• 46:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Lewis Howes?

  All the time.

• 46:37Mark Manson?

  So you just, you find a way to work the people you love into it, or to have them with you while you're doing it. And that's, that's it. That's the, that's the secret sauce.

• 46:46Lewis Howes?

  And you said he's got an interesting philosophy on delegation. What is that?

• 46:50Mark Manson?

  He told me something really cool, and it's funny, because again, it's advice that you hear a lot, but it, just the way he put it was very powerful. So when you hear people talk about delegation, they're like, oh yeah, you should, anything that you're not great at, you should like hire somebody who is. And it's like, that's fine. He said the same thing, but he talked about it in like a moral way. Like, he basically said, he's like, if I'm doing something, he's like, I'm world-class at a couple of things.

• 47:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:20Mark Manson?

  And so if I'm doing things.

• 47:22Lewis Howes?

  Anything else.

• 47:23Mark Manson?

  If I'm doing anything else, then I am ethically, like, is an ethical problem.

• 47:29Lewis Howes?

  It's like hurting the world, essentially.

• 47:30Mark Manson?

  Exactly. He's depriving the world of the thing that he's world-class at. And he said, if I'm not hiring somebody who's world-class at the thing I'm bad at, I'm doing the world a disservice by not, them not doing what they're world-class at.

• 47:45Lewis Howes?

  That is powerful.

• 47:46Mark Manson?

  I was like, god damn, dude. Yeah, you're right. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Yeah.

• 47:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow, man. What do you think his greatest challenge is?

• 47:58Mark Manson?

  Oh, god.

• 47:59Lewis Howes?

  Being a superstar that everyone loves, that he gets opportunities left and right. What do you see as like his biggest struggle? Or a way for him to get to the next level? Seeing it from the outside?

• 48:10Mark Manson?

  Well, I think, I think the challenge for him lately is, and this ties in a lot to what we were talking about with, with my last book. His biggest challenge the last 10 years has been redefining what the next level is.

• 48:25Lewis Howes?

  Reinventing himself.

• 48:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah. For years and years and years, it was always bigger movie, next movie, bigger movie. And he hit a point where he was like, I need to, I need to change my metric for like what the next level is. And that, that's how this book came about. Like, this is, this is why we're writing the book. Is he wants to share that process. Of like, look, I went out and conquered the world, achieved all these things, but like, at the end of the day, this is how I kind of like, these were my struggles and how I had to kind of reorient my life in my later years. So it's gonna be an amazing book. It's gonna be an amazing book. It's gonna be his whole life,

• 49:07Mark Manson?

  all the nitty-gritty details that, a lot of stuff he hasn't talked about before. And then about kind of how his whole philosophy and mindset has changed the last six or seven years.

• 49:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's cool. If you could give him one piece of advice, what would it be?

• 49:25Lewis Howes?

  That would better his life.

• 49:29Lewis Howes?

  He said to you, Mark, give me the piece of advice that you think I need. You've seen me for the last year now. You've seen my team. You've seen my delegation process. You see me on flights. You see me late night. You see me have a lot of fun and conquer the world. What piece of advice would you have for me to get to the next level?

• 49:49Mark Manson?

  I don't know, man. I'm gonna have to pass on that one.

• 49:54Lewis Howes?

  No advice?

• 49:55Mark Manson?

  You'll have to wait. Wait for the book.

• 49:58Lewis Howes?

  We'll wait for the book.

• 49:59Mark Manson?

  It's not that I don't have anything, I would say, but I think it's personal enough. And the book's not out.

• 50:05Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 50:07Mark Manson?

  That I would hold on to.

• 50:08Lewis Howes?

  When the book's out and then we'll see the advice. And so this book, Everything is [BLEEP]. A book about hope. Why should we? Who is this really for? Who needs this right now?

• 50:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Lewis Howes?

  And why should they get it right now?

• 50:21Mark Manson?

  So the people I wrote the book for. There are two things kind of going on in our culture today. One is what we mentioned, which is the increases in depression, anxiety, suicide, drug overdoses. Like, all those things are on the rise. I think there's a real lack of, you know, our culture's approach to those issues is either just medicate it or, oh, go see a therapist somewhere. You know, like, we don't want to deal with it. Like, it's just, it's not talked about. Not only like depression itself, but why these things are becoming more prevalent. What is it about our culture? Is it the technology? Is it social media? Is it political issues? Like, what is going on?

• 51:03Mark Manson?

  Is that's causing these demographical things to start happening? And then the second one is, why do we all have, seemingly have the feeling that the world is going to hell, even though it's not? You and I both have to be on social media. I know when you get on, it's like you see the same things I do and everybody else does. Like, you would think, some days I get on Twitter and you would think that the [BLEEP] apocalypse is upon us, you know? And it's... And it's just people freaking out about this or that. And they freak out and they argue and they bicker and they, you know, try to tarnish each other and try to ruin each other's reputations. And then the next day, it's something else. And so the book is also a look at how really,

• 51:47Mark Manson?

  what is it about the way we're getting information that causes these perceptions? You know, that causes, what is it about the internet and the technology that has changed our relationship with our culture so much? So that we're like, it, the feeling is that we're always adversarial.

• 52:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:04Mark Manson?

  And I think, I think one part, you know, one component, everybody likes to either blame the media or they, everybody likes to blame social media or everybody likes to blame, you know, like Facebook or Trump or whoever. And it's, I think there's something underlying all of them. There's like something more fundamental. I think there, those are all effects of like a more singular cause.

• 52:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:25Mark Manson?

  So, yeah, it's, it's deep stuff. Hopefully it's, my goal with it is to just help people chill out a little bit.

• 52:37Lewis Howes?

  Relax a little bit.

• 52:38Mark Manson?

  Like things like.

• 52:39Lewis Howes?

  Find perspective too, probably.

• 52:40Mark Manson?

  Find perspective because I, I think, I think really the only way we're going to get through this is by really understanding how our relationship to these technologies affects us emotionally. And, and it's nobody's fault. It's like, it's just our brains evolved a certain way and that these technologies, they react, they cause reactions that we aren't even aware of.

• 53:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I just had Cal Newport on recently.

• 53:10Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 53:11Lewis Howes?

  Writes about the deep work and essentially digital minimalism.

• 53:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 53:15Lewis Howes?

  He's not on social media at all.

• 53:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 53:17Lewis Howes?

  And his thesis is, you know, social media is essentially ruining us.

• 53:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 53:23Lewis Howes?

  You know, the addictive nature of it keeps us trapped to feel anxiety, to feel stressed, to feel comparison, to feel overwhelmed. And it's hard to do meaningful, fulfilling work in our lives.

• 53:35Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 53:35Lewis Howes?

  And we're constantly in that loop of, of feeling trapped and addicted.

• 53:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, and one, one thing I talk about in the book is that I really think technology, for how great it is, it is developed to take advantage of our psychological flaws.

• 53:52Mark Manson?

  Rather than compensate for them. So it's like our brains just don't. We're irrational creatures. We've got all sorts of biases and prejudices and all this stuff. And instead of developing technology that like, helps us get over those flaws. The technology taps into them because it, it makes it more profitable. So it's, it's a look at how that happens, why that happens. And you know, how can we kind of armor ourselves to, to keep it together?

• 54:24Lewis Howes?

  Powerful, man. The book, you guys can get the book right now. It's all about hope. If you need help in your life, everything is, it's a book about hope. Exciting ties, man. You've got a lot going on. It's really cool to hear the stories and I'm excited to hear more about how this book, the results of this book and how you feel in six months to a year from this. Your next project with Will Smith and everything else you have coming out after that. So I'm excited to hear about all this, man. Final two questions. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you again, Mark, for showing up. Because some people, when they hit the top, they can just stop. And take it easy and play Zelda for five years. So you did that for a little bit. But now you're showing back up in a bigger way.

• 55:07Lewis Howes?

  And you're challenging yourself physically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, everything to, to go beyond where you're at right now in a different way. You know, maybe it's not hitting the same measure of success, but going deeper. Maybe it's trying a different thing that you're not comfortable with. And I really acknowledge that for you, man, because it could be super easy to just say, I want to ride this for the next five, 10 years.

• 55:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And, and you know, I, I want to make sure the audience knows, Zelda is a really good game. You know, I'm not ripping on Zelda. I'm not ripping on Zelda, but yeah, it's sitting on that couch, man. It's, it's, and again, this is, this is what kind of infused the new book is like, my big discovery after subtle art is like, I'm not happy without challenge in my life. When you remove all the challenge, I break down.

• 55:58Lewis Howes?

  I think most of us are not happy without a challenge. If we're just sitting on a beach every single day, it gets like tiring, it gets boring. I mean, sure, maybe it's nice for a few months if you've been working your butt off for your whole life, but it's like. We find fulfillment in the service of others.

• 56:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 56:13Lewis Howes?

  The challenges we face and overcome. We don't find fulfillment from just laying in a hammock 24/7.

• 56:18Mark Manson?

  Yep, absolutely.

• 56:19Lewis Howes?

  Having everything handed to us.

• 56:21Mark Manson?

  And it's funny because you got to learn that lesson over and over again.

• 56:24Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 56:25Mark Manson?

  You know, you, you, our brain just keeps tricking you. It's like, whoa, yeah, that's true. But if you do this one thing, then it's going to be great, you know? And it's like, no, it, it's never, it's never done.

• 56:38Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's important to make sure you give your body and your mind time to rest and recover and to, to be on the beach for a week or two, or whatever it may be, to you, to reflect, to have that off-season to recharge. But that shouldn't be the norm.

• 56:50Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 56:50Lewis Howes?

  That shouldn't be every single day, so. This was called the three truths. You, you answered it last time, but I want to see if you have different truths. So I'm not even sure if you remember what you answered.

• 56:58Mark Manson?

  I don't, yeah, I don't.

• 56:59Lewis Howes?

  So now that a year and a half has passed and you've done so many new things, and you've learned new things in your life. Imagine this is the last day of your life, 100-something years from now, and you pick the day and you've accomplished everything.

• 57:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Lewis Howes?

  You achieve everything you want.

• 57:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:16Lewis Howes?

  You reinvent every year, you have an amazing life.

• 57:18Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 57:19Lewis Howes?

  But it's your last day and you've got to, you've got to, you've got to go. And all of your work has to go with you. So no one has access to your written word anymore.

• 57:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:29Lewis Howes?

  But you get to leave people with a message, three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in your life.

• 57:34Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 57:35Lewis Howes?

  And this would be the thing that people have to remember you by. Three Lessons or Three Truths by Mark Manson. What would you say? And I'm going to look back to see what they were last time, but.

• 57:46Mark Manson?

  I always, I always, man, you always throw like the.

• 57:50Lewis Howes?

  The bomb.

• 57:51Mark Manson?

  Most difficult philosophical questions as if you're like, so what do you want to have for lunch today? Yeah. Three truths.

• 57:59Lewis Howes?

  For what's coming up for you now, from everything you've learned, you know?

• 58:03Mark Manson?

  I'll say the three truths that are like most salient for me today. That I've learned recently or felt very intensely recently. One is definitely that one that I said that like I need, I need some stress to be happy. Like it's funny because my 2017, I didn't do a damn thing. Well, I did some things, but like I sat around a lot and made a bunch of money. And then 2018, I was like working stressed out of my mind. And if I had to do one of those two years over again, I'd do 2018, like no question. Totally do it again. And that was a big realization that it's like, for whatever reason, like I, some stress and anxiety makes me happy, like makes me feel good. So that'd be one.

• 58:45Mark Manson?

  Two, I would say, and again, this is might be salient just because we, only because we just talked about it. I would say that there's no actual end point to any of this. There's no, there's no one goal that you're going to be like, awesome, great career. I'm done. Yeah, I'm done. Like there's no, you know, it's probably the same thing with kids or family or like there's, just the way that we are constructed psychologically is such that we're always mildly dissatisfied. And that's by design and that's what's gotten, you know, that's what's created civilization in the world.

• 59:27Mark Manson?

  And it's, I think it's just important to hold that in our mind and be realistic about it.

• 59:35Mark Manson?

  Don't delude yourself that if you just had this one thing, if you could just go live on an island or if you could just get this car or whatever, that it's, everything's going to be great. It's not, it's not. Third one, third truth, oh my God, it's so hard, man. This is why I write books. So I can spend a long time thinking, yeah.

• 59:58Mark Manson?

  And explaining third truth. I think ultimately what matters most is just people is the connections you make. And how connected you feel with others. And so any, any sort of analysis you do in your head in terms of like decision making. I think people tend to underestimate human connection and overestimate material success and big numbers and stuff like that. And so whenever you're doing that analysis, you know, just pump, pump, inflate the human connection number a little bit and deflate the, you know, material value a little bit. And so.

• 1:00:40Lewis Howes?

  That's cool, man. I like it.

• 1:00:42Mark Manson?

  I'll go with that.

• 1:00:42Lewis Howes?

  I like it, man. The new book, you guys can get it now. Everything is a book about hope. Get one for yourself and a few friends.

• 1:00:49Mark Manson?

  Come see me on tour.

• 1:00:50Lewis Howes?

  Come see you on tour. MarkManson.net. I'll have all the events, I'm assuming.

• 1:00:55Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 1:00:55Lewis Howes?

  The books, everything that you wanna, all the articles, lots of amazing articles there. You're more on social media now. Before you weren't really. You post like once every three months. So now you're more on social media, which is great. So people, make sure you share out, tag them when you get the book, let them know that you're getting the book. When you're listening to this interview, make sure you tag Mark as well. Anything else we need to know?

• 1:01:17Mark Manson?

  I think that's it.

• 1:01:17Lewis Howes?

  That's it. Okay. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:01:21Mark Manson?

  Oh, man.

• 1:01:22Lewis Howes?

  See if it's changed.

• 1:01:25Mark Manson?

  My definition of greatness is just showing up 100% for whatever you value, whatever you care about, like really just not leaving anything on the table, you know? Whether you wanna just be the best mom the world has ever seen, or the best preschool teacher, or lawnmower man, whatever the hell you're doing, you know, it's like if that's what you're doing and you're showing up fully, putting everything into it and getting better at it consistently, like that's what matters.

• 1:02:00Lewis Howes?

  Mark Manson, my man.

• 1:02:02Mark Manson?

  Good seeing you again.

• 1:02:03Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate you, man.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  And there you have it, my friends. I hope you enjoyed this interview with Mark Manson. Powerful, powerful stuff. Make sure to check out his new book. Follow him over on Instagram and on social media and his blog, of course. This is a big one, guys. Make sure you share it with your friends. LewisHowes.com/793. Let me know what you enjoyed the most out of this episode. Tag me on Instagram story, tag Mark as well. And of course, be a hero to someone today by sharing this with one friend. Text in this link for someone that you think this would inspire, this would help, this would improve their life. You can be a hero to one person today by sending them this link on the podcast app or LewisHowes.com/793.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  The way to find more joy in your life is to have a clear direction of where you want to go, or have some goals that allows you to move in a certain direction. Now, the answer is not just in the goals. It's in enjoying the moments every single day along the journey to getting there. Those may be challenging moments, they may be fun, they may be exhilarating moments. But whatever you do, you must look at your goals as a roadmap. As Les Brown says, "Your goals are the roadmaps that guide you and show you what is possible for your life." They show you what's possible, but you hold the key to seeing what's possible for your joy and your happiness

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  by enjoying and appreciating the journey along the way. I love you so very much, and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.