Ep. 632: Putting Up Coyotes

Steven Rinella https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork talks with Cory Calkins https://www.instagram.com/cman_calkins/?hl=en, Brody Henderson https://www.instagram.com/brodyjhenderson/, Randall Williams https://www.instagram.com/randall__williams/, Phil Taylor https://www.instagram.com/philtaylor25/?hl=en, and Corinne Schneider https://www.instagram.com/corinnesschneider/?hl=en. Topics discussed: How you pronounce “coyote”; a machete with handles on both ends; ninja throwing stars; MeatEater's Cyber Monday Sale https://store.themeateater.com/?lang=en_US&bid=meateater; the little dentist hunting club; speech and debate; fighting babies; don’t “Skip the Flip”; issues around hunting deer with hounds; Steve Rinella’s “Rough Cuts” episode on rattling’ bucks down in Texas https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrwvK9BVMF2cFoX3MNys28o2Q-GphLV9G; how Steve wants to explain what carpetbagging is; more on reciprocity and how to leave your outside shoes at the door; ass chap over not being able to pay the resident hunting license fee for a state in which you’re not a resident; Doug’s place and Asian lady beetles; and more. Outro song "Ode to Panfish and Squirrel" by Judge Holden https://www.facebook.com/judgeholdenmusic Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:11Speaker 03

  This is the Meat Eater Podcast, coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We're the Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com.

• 1:42Steven Rinella?

  Welcome to the show. Today Corinne is, among other things, well, no, she's only doing one thing. Among other things that will happen on today's show is Corinne, you'll be able to listen

• 1:54Steven Rinella?

  to Corinne, unless you're on YouTube, then you can watch it happen. Does she got a camera at her, Phil? Yeah. You'll be able to listen to and/or watch Corinne flesh her first coyote.

• 2:06Steven Rinella?

  Huge applause.

• 2:09Speaker 05

  Is that like a homemade ooloo there?

• 2:11Steven Rinella?

  This is a homemade ooloo. I did not make this. I'll tell you about it in a minute. Uh, Crin, did you grow up calling them coyotes?

• 2:19Speaker 06

  Wile E.

• 2:20Steven Rinella?

  Okay. Now that you've got one, you'll switch. I've found that people, yeah, people that say coyote have likely gotten one and people that say coyote haven't.

• 2:31Speaker 05

  I say coyote. Does that track?

• 2:35Speaker 05

  It tracks. I code switch.

• 2:38Steven Rinella?

  There's a number of tools here, um, that she's gonna be doing. Uh, in my, she's gonna, I'm reluctant to let her use this. This is a, a, a Dexter. This is an Osable draw knife or flashing knife. You know, you might call it a necker knife. This is a good way for you to put a hole in that.

• 2:56Speaker 06

  Right, which I don't want to.

• 2:57Steven Rinella?

  But I'm gonna let you use the backside. So this is your cutting edge.

• 3:04Steven Rinella?

  Okay. This is your pushing edge. You're allowed to use the pushing edge because the cutting edge you'll have to spend more time figuring out on.

• 3:11Speaker 05

  And for listeners, it's a 16 inch blade with a draw knife. Handles at both sides?

• 3:16Steven Rinella?

  You better get yourself.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  For listeners who don't know what a draw knife is.

• 3:19Steven Rinella?

  Get yourself a new mental tape measure.

• 3:20Speaker 05

  Kinda looks like a machete with a handle on both ends.

• 3:23Steven Rinella?

  Oh, it don't.

• 3:25Speaker 05

  Boomerang?

• 3:25Steven Rinella?

  It's like a ninja sword.

• 3:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:27Steven Rinella?

  It's a ninja sword.

• 3:28Speaker 05

  A katana.

• 3:29Steven Rinella?

  Cut it in half and put a handle on the other end of the blade.

• 3:32Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:34Steven Rinella?

  Katana? Is that what they call them?

• 3:35Speaker 05

  Oh, that's the traditional, yeah. Yeah, that curved blade.

• 3:38Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. You know what I highly recommend for parents, speaking of ninja swords, is, um,

• 3:42Speaker 05

  Nunchucks?

• 3:43Steven Rinella?

  No, man. We have more fun.

• 3:45Speaker 05

  Throwing stars.

• 3:46Steven Rinella?

  We buy ninja throwing stars. You can't buy them on Amazon. You have to go to ninja supply houses. But we go to online ninja supply houses and buy ninja throwing stars. There is nothing more fun.

• 3:57Speaker 05

  Did you ever make them out of a sheet metal in shop class back in the day?

• 4:02Steven Rinella?

  We never could make anything that was as good as what you could buy.

• 4:05Speaker 05

  It's still fun. They got the kid's safe ones at Costco now, the throwing stars.

• 4:09Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 4:10Speaker 05

  Sorry. Were they made out of Velcro or something? I couldn't tell you what they're made out of. Little plastic things that stick in.

• 4:16Steven Rinella?

  No, no, no, no.

• 4:17Speaker 05

  If it's kid's safe, it's not a throwing star.

• 4:19Steven Rinella?

  I'm talking eight.

• 4:20Speaker 05

  It's in the shape of a star.

• 4:22Steven Rinella?

  We like seven and eight point.

• 4:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:24Steven Rinella?

  A four star ninja throwing star, a four point ninja throwing star means that half time it don't do anything. You get an eight point ninja throwing star, that some bitch is gonna stick.

• 4:35Speaker 07

  You got a big block of wood, big round of wood out in your yard.

• 4:38Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, we took a big slab of cottonwood.

• 4:40Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 4:40Steven Rinella?

  And I hung it from chains. So you know, like a swing set has those angled the, the supports.

• 4:46Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 4:47Steven Rinella?

  Like saw leg style things. I put a S or an eye bolt. And up on that, on the, on the saw horse legs of the swing set, I put an eye bolt so I could suspend a cottonwood stump. They, they dry out and fall apart, but you put that cottonwood stump up and then next very important step, oh, that is such horseshit.

• 5:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 5:09Steven Rinella?

  What? Come on.

• 5:10Speaker 07

  Kid's safe. It's like a Nerf bow.

• 5:13Steven Rinella?

  So. No. The next step that's very important is you take all these throwing stars you just purchased and you spray paint them blaze orange.

• 5:24Speaker 07

  I was just gonna ask if you'd had any get sucked up in your lawn mower.

• 5:27Steven Rinella?

  One is like MIA. And it's blaze orange.

• 5:31Speaker 07

  Oh, you don't like put up a carpet backstop or something?

• 5:35Steven Rinella?

  No, I paint them blaze orange. One, I don't, I'll never understand what happened to it. We've taken the metal detector. We can't find it.

• 5:40Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 5:41Steven Rinella?

  Blaze orange ninja throwing star missing.

• 5:43Speaker 07

  Do they practice from different positions? You know, like kneeling?

• 5:48Steven Rinella?

  No, I've showed them, you know, we do it like you hold it like you're pinching it between your thumb and the main knuckle on your forefinger. And I was telling them that in ninja movies, I don't really know what the move is, but they kind of got like a.

• 6:01Speaker 07

  They do a.

• 6:01Steven Rinella?

  They're like, they kind of got like, it's like a, like they're doing, I don't know. They got their fingers out.

• 6:06Speaker 07

  Spider-Man style.

• 6:07Speaker 05

  It's like this. It's like. Yeah, they're like, they're like palming it almost and then they.

• 6:11Steven Rinella?

  Is that what they're doing?

• 6:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:12Steven Rinella?

  That shit doesn't.

• 6:13Speaker 05

  I don't know how it works.

• 6:13Speaker 07

  That's cool.

• 6:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, they're palming it.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then it's sort of like a frisbee move, I think.

• 6:18Speaker 07

  Like a discus.

• 6:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  Or there's between the fingers, but I think that's more for style than substance.

• 6:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I remember there was a ninja movie and they, when they were training, they had that string with a weight on the end.

• 6:31Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 6:31Steven Rinella?

  And you'd have to pin that string, man. But the problem is you're never gonna kill anybody with a ninja throwing star. And this is coming from a guy that owns some.

• 6:38Speaker 07

  The old movies, like a dude would get hit and he'd just fall over dead.

• 6:42Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 07

  Right in the chest.

• 6:43Steven Rinella?

  What would really happen if you hit someone with a ninja throwing star, they're gonna go, ow, Jesus. That's probably what you, that's probably.

• 6:49Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 07

  I've got a one inch cut.

• 6:54Steven Rinella?

  I love them. What else, what else, the other tool we have here is Tyler Freel, who's been on the show before, made this oolu knife. You know, it's cool as shit. So I'm holding up an oolu knife right now that he made. He set it in antler, single bevel.

• 7:12Steven Rinella?

  Man, we're, we're, uh, this project I'm working on, I haven't been able to talk about what it is. We were, we actually filmed with, um, Metten Aaron from the Kent State Archaeological Experiment Lab. And he made an oolu with an obsidian blade.

• 7:31Speaker 05

  Sweet.

• 7:33Steven Rinella?

  And you see that and hold that in your hand and you immediately understand the, the evolution of the oolu knife.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  Does it have a handle or it's just a chunk of rock?

• 7:41Steven Rinella?

  No, it's got the same handle and a battered into it is a big obsidian blade. And you're like, oh, that's where ulus came from. A hundred percent, man. Um, Krim might be using this oolu. I don't know. I don't know what she's, what, I don't know what.

• 7:54Speaker 06

  There's like meat over here.

• 7:55Steven Rinella?

  You're not gonna get that off.

• 7:57Speaker 06

  What if I?

• 7:58Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 7:59Speaker 06

  It didn't matter like for.

• 8:00Steven Rinella?

  Don't take that off. Don't take that off. Let, let me explain. Let me explain where we're at on this coyote fleshing project.

• 8:07Steven Rinella?

  I, okay.

• 8:10Steven Rinella?

  Stu Miller, the fur handler and trapper Stu Miller, I fleshed, or I fleshed some coyotes with Stu Miller.

• 8:19Steven Rinella?

  Stu Miller traps in Southern Illinois. He flushes his coyotes down clean, clean, clean, down to the leather.

• 8:28Steven Rinella?

  I was curious about how, like, cause I hear different ways. And like Mercer Lawing would not flesh them all the way down. I asked Mercer, I said, how clean do, does, when you send it into a tannery, not for the fur trade, but you do it the same way. So this is fur trade or not?

• 8:46Steven Rinella?

  Well, as we're talking, can they see that coyote that's on that board?

• 8:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:50Steven Rinella?

  All right. That, that coyote on the board, for instance, that would, that's prepared in a way that it would be suitable for the fur trade. Or it would go to a tannery, just like that, off the board. And I asked Mercer, I'm like, hey, how, if you're, if you're sending the coyote to the tannery, how clean do you flesh it? And he had the brilliant idea of, he said, why don't you call the tannery? Hmm. Never would have occurred to me. I called the tannery. I said, how do you like coyotes? They said, excess fat, excess muscle.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  And did they give you?

• 9:27Steven Rinella?

  I knew, I knew what they meant.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Well, what do they mean?

• 9:31Steven Rinella?

  What I'm having her do.

• 9:31Speaker 05

  No, I'm saying like, why do they prefer them that way? So you don't overdo it?

• 9:36Steven Rinella?

  I think that you're, that you're taking it all off. And now they have these wheels, these kind of like, they have these wheels that they can thin the leather with anyways if they need to.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  But there's gotta be other critters where you're trying to get.

• 9:49Steven Rinella?

  There's a lot of stuff. It's clean. A raccoon is clean.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  Right.

• 9:53Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Like a muskrat, you leave the saddle. Like right now, Corinne's on the saddle. Pinch that little thing there.

• 10:00Speaker 06

  It feels like it's not doing anything.

• 10:01Steven Rinella?

  That's like a saddle. Just cut the, take, take the, take this flat tail.

• 10:07Steven Rinella?

  The final tool, an MKC flat tail. Made by a man who sat right where Brody's sitting one time. Take the flat tail. And cut that way like you're, like you're cutting the diaphragm out of a deer and you're gutting it.

• 10:20Steven Rinella?

  That's kind of a weird way you're doing that.

• 10:23Speaker 06

  Do you want me to like peel it off or just?

• 10:25Steven Rinella?

  No, you got it. You got it. That's the saddle. On a muskrat, you leave the saddle on. On a mink, you leave the saddle on. On a red fox, you leave the saddle on. On a raccoon, the saddle comes off. Beaver, clean. Nothing gets left on.

• 10:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 10:40Steven Rinella?

  You know, in a coyote, I think they used to do them clean, but they told me, don't do it clean. So that little membrane there, but you see down when she gets down by the, the, the teats?

• 10:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:52Steven Rinella?

  That's a female, right? Oh, she just put a damn hole in it.

• 10:55Speaker 06

  No, not yet. Not yet. Okay.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  Excess fat and excess meat, Corinne.

• 11:01Speaker 06

  Cameras are rolling.

• 11:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is the worst case scenario for someone doing this to a coyote for the first time.

• 11:07Steven Rinella?

  How so?

• 11:08Speaker 05

  A lot of pressure. You got you at the table and three cameras pointing at her.

• 11:13Steven Rinella?

  The Meat Eater Cyber Monday sale. This is your last chance.

• 11:17Steven Rinella?

  This is your last chance to take advantage of the Cyber Monday sale. First light, FHF gear, Phelps game calls, Dave Smith decoys, and the Meat Eater store.

• 11:28Steven Rinella?

  Okay, it shuts off at 11:59 PM. What timezone? Like, if you're gonna get that specific, oh, it probably rolls. It probably rolls.

• 11:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. And hey Corinne, you've got no mics. You gotta use your outside voice whenever you say anything.

• 11:44Speaker 07

  I think it would.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  Okay!

• 11:46Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 11:46Speaker 07

  It depends on your IP address, yeah.

• 11:50Steven Rinella?

  11:59 tonight. Don't be trying to shop at midnight. Too late. Fifty, up to 50% off until 11:59 tonight. I would li- I challenge someone to try and make a purchase at 11:59 in 30 seconds.

• 12:08Speaker 07

  And by, and by tonight, we mean December 2nd.

• 12:13Steven Rinella?

  Is that what this is?

• 12:15Speaker 05

  Correct. Monday to December 2nd.

• 12:16Steven Rinella?

  Monday, December 2nd.

• 12:17Speaker 05

  11:59 Mountain Time.

• 12:19Steven Rinella?

  Up to 50% off. First Light Gear.

• 12:22Speaker 07

  Oh, thanks Corinne.

• 12:23Steven Rinella?

  Yep. First Light Gear, FHF Gear. Phelps Game Calls Dave Smith Decoys. Go to firstlight.com and do all your shopping there. Have we covered our tools? Yeah, we got the Uva Knife, we got the Flat Tail.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  What's that black handled thing there? No, yeah.

• 12:40Steven Rinella?

  Oh, little honer.

• 12:42Speaker 05

  I gotcha.

• 12:43Steven Rinella?

  Little honer. Um, so there's that.

• 12:49Steven Rinella?

  Lot of feedback. This is one of those things that continues. Oh, I was gonna say something else. The hell's I gonna talk about? What was I just talking about?

• 12:57Speaker 06

  Kids podcast?

• 12:58Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 12:59Speaker 05

  Trapping, our fur stuff?

• 13:01Speaker 07

  Don't shop at 11:59.

• 13:03Steven Rinella?

  Don't shop at 11:59. No.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  Don't get them wet. Don't feed them after midnight.

• 13:09Speaker 07

  Don't take too much stuff off the coyote. The saddle.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  F'd up shitters calendars.

• 13:16Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 13:17Speaker 07

  Corinne's a good company.

• 13:18Steven Rinella?

  Corinne's a good company man here. It's a great calendar. There a day I was talking about an ad I dreamt up about the calendar. With Santa Claus in it.

• 13:26Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:27Speaker 05

  Um. I might have to walk that one up the.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  Ladder if you're cool with that.

• 13:30Steven Rinella?

  No, it's phenomenal idea. Randall needs to play Santa.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Santa's right here. Yeah, perfect.

• 13:36Steven Rinella?

  I would love to.

• 13:36Speaker 07

  Consider it done.

• 13:38Steven Rinella?

  On a recent episode, we got a lot, the feedback keeps coming. I remember there was a, um, there's been other subjects in the history of the show where, where it just kind of kept going. You know, you like, you cover something and then there's feedback and you cover the feedback and the feedback gets feedback.

• 13:55Speaker 05

  Sometimes for years.

• 13:57Steven Rinella?

  And it reverberates. It becomes what might be called a feedback loop of feedback. Um, and it never ends. And then I'll say, this is it. And then a while later we'll cover it more. And eventually it'll die.

• 14:10Speaker 05

  So here we go again.

• 14:13Steven Rinella?

  On the show, we covered, pre chewing food for your children. In particular, that when our kids, we have three of them, when our kids would get to be nine months old,

• 14:26Steven Rinella?

  I would chew up deer meat. And then I'd give them the chewed up deer meat and they would eat that. And I would say, ha, his first thing ever was that deer meat. Or something to that effect. And we were talking about pre chewed deer meat and, uh, we had follow up from Durkin, Pat Durkin, talking about, um, eating pre chewed meat. Our kids all ate pre chewed meat. Um, and we had some feedback, including feedback from a, a DDS. What does that mean, Dr. Randall?

• 14:56Speaker 05

  It's dentist.

• 14:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, what does it actually stand for?

• 14:59Speaker 05

  Doctor of dental surgery or other.

• 15:01Steven Rinella?

  Science. Well, do you know dentists all kind of stick together in a weird little way?

• 15:06Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, does that surprise you?

• 15:08Speaker 07

  Doctor of dental surgery.

• 15:09Steven Rinella?

  Do you guys remember when we had it, my dentist came on the, on the show?

• 15:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, great guy.

• 15:13Speaker 05

  That day.

• 15:14Speaker 07

  Goat killer.

• 15:14Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 05

  Well, maybe I was here.

• 15:17Steven Rinella?

  I have the only dentist in America who's killed 10 mountain goats. Well, well, cause he, he grew up in southeast Alaska. They'd get off school and go goat hunting.

• 15:25Speaker 05

  It's like hunting the back 40 for.

• 15:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like how you might go like hunt for an evening for whitetails. When he was growing up, you'd go hunt goats after school. Uh, only dentist in America like that. He came on the podcast. I can't remember if he won. He did really well.

• 15:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, he won. Yeah. I believe he won in overtime, actually.

• 15:44Steven Rinella?

  And he just fixed my daughter's hockey helmet.

• 15:47Speaker 07

  Really?

• 15:48Steven Rinella?

  It's like he's trying to one up me.

• 15:51Steven Rinella?

  Who fixes another man's daughter's hockey helmet?

• 15:53Speaker 07

  Did he have to use a particular dental instrument to do that? Or is he just?

• 15:57Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 15:57Speaker 07

  A helmet guy?

• 15:58Steven Rinella?

  He texted me and let me know he fixed my daughter's hockey helmet.

• 16:01Speaker 05

  Steve is sports, you know?

• 16:03Steven Rinella?

  And he's also a doctor and then we know how Steve feels about that. Yeah, so he's all built up now. He thinks he's the man. He's a doc, he's a dentist. He fixed my daughter's hockey helmet. Keep your hands off my daughter's hockey helmet.

• 16:14Speaker 05

  Did he first say something was wrong with the helmet? Like, hey, let me see that helmet, something's wrong with it.

• 16:18Steven Rinella?

  We've been aware of a slight problem with her helmet for a year.

• 16:22Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 16:23Steven Rinella?

  Missing a screw that holds the face mask on. I always think I'm gonna replace that screw. And then, once he tried to one-up me, I did. I went in and replaced it last night. And I asked him if he wanted his screw back. And he texted me the did the dot. To which I followed up. You guys wanna come for dinner on Monday? And he said he does.

• 16:39Speaker 05

  Great.

• 16:40Speaker 06

  I think he was saving you money.

• 16:41Speaker 05

  Then you guys can have your little argument about it.

• 16:43Steven Rinella?

  Then I'm gonna take him aside and I'm gonna be like, what's with you trying to fix my daughter's hockey helmet?

• 16:47Speaker 07

  You make a nicer dinner than he made the last time.

• 16:50Speaker 06

  Because if she gets into an accident, her jaw is coming off her face. So he can see that.

• 16:57Speaker 05

  That was graphic.

• 16:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah, I guess that's true. You could see that he wouldn't fix it, hoping that something bad would happen to her teeth.

• 17:05Speaker 05

  Hockey players are known to have problems with their teeth.

• 17:07Speaker 07

  It's like a collision repair guy, you know, saying, hey, you ought to replace those tires. If he was unscrupulous, he'd just leave it alone.

• 17:15Steven Rinella?

  God, now I'm starting to like the guy a lot again. I liked him before I got all wound up on this subject. Now I'm back liking him.

• 17:21Speaker 05

  Tighten your lug nuts.

• 17:22Steven Rinella?

  So, the hell was I saying? Oh! How they stick together. So he came on the podcast. And we just point out, he's a dentist, he's on the podcast. Well, guess what? Other dentists contact him to offer him hunting permissions.

• 17:39Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 17:39Steven Rinella?

  It's like a little, like, dentist, like...

• 17:42Speaker 05

  Hunting club.

• 17:43Steven Rinella?

  If you're any.

• 17:44Speaker 07

  I I've not heard from a history PhD offering me anything of value.

• 17:49Steven Rinella?

  He got hunting. Yeah, he get he got hunting invites. He got hunting invites off it for being a dentist.

• 17:55Speaker 07

  That's pretty solid.

• 17:56Steven Rinella?

  Cause you know what? They're like, you know what, buddy? I understand. All we do is make children cry. Why don't you come out and hunt my place?

• 18:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 18:02Steven Rinella?

  You know?

• 18:03Speaker 07

  They've been through it together.

• 18:04Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, a guy wrote in, a DDS, a dentist wrote in, um, giving his two cents on pre chewed food. And he was pointing out, which seemed to me to be totally reasonable. He was pointing out that the quicker you can get a little kid chewing, chewy foods, not super processed, ultra processed foods, which are all, if you think about it, ultra processed foods are all soft. Chewing real whole foods. That's a two handed draw knife.

• 18:33Speaker 06

  I just don't want, I'm being so delicate here.

• 18:37Steven Rinella?

  Um.

• 18:41Steven Rinella?

  Pre chewed foods, pre chewed. He was saying that you got, that a child, he was saying, a child needs to ex, needs to have resistance training in his jaw. The same way that you get, you know, other exercise muscles. So he said, the quicker you get your child resistance training his jaw, he'll get a beefy, good jaw. And as people switch to those little tubes that you squeeze your food out of, which their consumption has gone up 800%. We were pointing out.

• 19:06Speaker 05

  From nothing.

• 19:06Steven Rinella?

  Brody pointed out.

• 19:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 19:08Steven Rinella?

  Anything that gets invited, that anything that gets invented has seasoned explosion and growth because it didn't, wasn't there before.

• 19:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  Like cell phones.

• 19:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 07

  There's been a.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Self.

• 19:19Speaker 07

  It's skyrocketed since the 1950s.

• 19:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. And when it came out with those shoes that have five toes on them.

• 19:27Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 19:28Steven Rinella?

  Usage skyrocketed.

• 19:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 19:30Steven Rinella?

  800%.

• 19:32Speaker 05

  Among other things.

• 19:36Steven Rinella?

  So he had that to say. Now, another guy wrote in and he's trying to, okay, he says this. I'm just gonna let him speak for himself. In episode 620, this is from a gentleman named Matt, Matthew.

• 19:49Steven Rinella?

  Matthew says, hi meat eater. In episode 620, a Max Care, that was the, that was the DDS's name, letter was referenced in the discussion regarding pre-chewed food. As Matt flaunted his DDS, I feel obligated to mention that I am an exercise physiologist and nutritionist.

• 20:10Speaker 07

  I wonder if they stick together.

• 20:11Steven Rinella?

  Does that, do they get PhDs? What does that mean? How quickly, how quickly can I get one of those?

• 20:16Speaker 07

  I don't know how you credential that.

• 20:18Steven Rinella?

  Can you look it up? How, like, could I just, could I have one by the end of the day?

• 20:22Speaker 07

  No, I don't think so. I'm guessing it's probably a master's degree.

• 20:26Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's what he is. He's an exercise physiologist and nutritionist. He goes on.

• 20:33Steven Rinella?

  He is very unhappy with what this guy said. He goes out, the idea that a baby needs resistance training for the jaw for appropriate mandibular development is like saying they need to do pushups so they can crawl on time.

• 20:53Steven Rinella?

  For, for nearly all healthy infants, this is continuing the letter. For nearly all healthy infants, their rate of development all gets washed out by the time they are two. It's just silly fear mongering that folks use to support their ideology and sell whatever they are selling.

• 21:14Steven Rinella?

  Probably the most flawed of these is the statement that breastfeeding is superior to formula.

• 21:23Steven Rinella?

  Getting controversial.

• 21:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, I have a feeling this feedback.

• 21:26Steven Rinella?

  I've heard that breastfed babies are more snuggly. I don't know if that's true. He goes on, probably the most flawed of these is the statement that breastfeeding is superior to formula. Funny how, funny how he neglects to mention the millions of lives saved by the advent of formula. These correlations are drawn from the predominance of poor nutrient profile in most commercial formulas. They are not causal in any way. For example, if a mother is breastfeeding, but she is an alcoholic, is that going to be better, is that going to better support development than a mother who canned breastfeed and is

• 22:09Steven Rinella?

  using a whole fat, high-quality formula? Of course not. I, I, I a little bit take, it's a little, cause let me give you an example. Let's say I said, let's say I said, I'm not feeding my baby at all. And they're like, well, that's terrible. And I said, well, or I'll feed it mercury.

• 22:28Speaker 07

  Right.

• 22:29Steven Rinella?

  What's better now? Do you know what I'm saying? It's like,

• 22:36Speaker 07

  I can honestly say that's the first time the image of someone feeding an infant mercury has ever crossed my mind.

• 22:42Speaker 05

  Now, if they're bottle feeding them.

• 22:43Steven Rinella?

  He's going to like, why, he's going like way out there.

• 22:48Speaker 07

  I take his point though, that like, if most formulas are poor nutrition, you'd, you know, there's a point to be made there, but it doesn't mean that formula by default is.

• 23:01Steven Rinella?

  So yes, is it, okay. Is it better, I, I agree. Who could argue this? That he's, he's, he's saying this. What's better? A whole fat, high-quality formula or mother's milk from a drunken alcoholic?

• 23:18Speaker 05

  Let me think about that one. But we're, we're talking about, yeah. The whole that we're talking, come on.

• 23:30Steven Rinella?

  Ergo.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  I, I think he's being a little harsh on our guy Max. Like we're talking about, like, if you exercise muscle, it's going to get stronger, right? I mean, come on.

• 23:40Steven Rinella?

  I like this guy.

• 23:41Speaker 05

  And Max sent us a nice card. Corinne, where's that card?

• 23:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, I just opened up my laptop. It's right on the inside of that.

• 23:48Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I don't know what I was going to talk about now. I shouldn't talk about, no, that's, I shouldn't, I want to. Set it up that way. What's this?

• 23:56Speaker 06

  Oh, that's a card from Mac.

• 23:57Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 23:58Speaker 06

  With a message to each of us.

• 23:59Speaker 07

  I almost threw it on that random ear on the table.

• 24:06Speaker 05

  Matthew, this guy does say is mostly joking, so we should.

• 24:09Steven Rinella?

  Well, I like him. I think, but this remembered, I just remembered what I was gonna talk about. It's something I shouldn't talk about. Cause it's gonna get me in trouble with my wife.

• 24:17Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 24:17Steven Rinella?

  My kid and my kid's school.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  How much trouble?

• 24:20Steven Rinella?

  Minor.

• 24:21Speaker 05

  Go for it.

• 24:24Steven Rinella?

  My kid, I just had to go to the parents' meeting. For speech and debate.

• 24:30Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 24:31Steven Rinella?

  And I'm down there and, and I'm sitting with my wife.

• 24:35Speaker 05

  Debating with her?

• 24:36Steven Rinella?

  No, well, I did.

• 24:37Speaker 07

  I was gonna say, this is like.

• 24:39Steven Rinella?

  I sat through the whole parents' meeting and I said to her afterward, the, the second the guy was done talking. We're still sitting there and I said, I have one of those things for you. That you're gonna be annoyed that I said. You're not gonna take it seriously and you're never gonna give it its due.

• 24:58Steven Rinella?

  And this intrigued her to wanna know what exactly it was and it was this. I'm like, I don't like any part of this whole thing.

• 25:09Steven Rinella?

  Why would you want to train, without knowing these kids, all these kids in high school? They're even talking about parents donating money to support speech and debate. Okay?

• 25:22Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. I, I gotta hear more about why you don't like it.

• 25:24Steven Rinella?

  Well, I'm gonna get there.

• 25:25Speaker 07

  It's like teaching your kids martial arts.

• 25:26Steven Rinella?

  No, I'm getting there.

• 25:27Speaker 05

  As someone who.

• 25:28Steven Rinella?

  It occurred to me midway, something, it occurred to me midway through this whole thing. I don't know their ethics and ideology. Why would I want to spend money training them and being convincing?

• 25:41Steven Rinella?

  When I don't know what they're gonna try to convince people of?

• 25:44Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:45Steven Rinella?

  I would spend it in infusing them with my ethics and ideology. And then of those who adopted that.

• 25:53Speaker 05

  Teach them.

• 25:54Steven Rinella?

  I would then teach them to be convincing. But how could I just come in to a room of high school kids and want them all to be convincing when I don't know? And I came up with a slogan, today's kids are tomorrow's enemies.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  That's a good one.

• 26:09Steven Rinella?

  And it's like.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  That's one of your best.

• 26:13Steven Rinella?

  It just occurred to me and my wife, in fact, did not give it its due. She still hasn't given me what she thinks about the whole.

• 26:22Speaker 05

  Well, I think the idea is that it's like they're teaching them, they're giving them a template that they can slot in ideology as they get older and form their own opinions and.

• 26:30Steven Rinella?

  But how do we know?

• 26:32Speaker 05

  Certain.

• 26:33Steven Rinella?

  How do we know that we don't take a kid and make him super good at being convincing? And then he goes out and convinces people to do horrible stuff.

• 26:41Speaker 07

  Becomes an anti hunting like.

• 26:43Steven Rinella?

  Yes. And to be like, people would be like, my God, how did he get so good at convincing everybody of that? And I'd be like, oh, you know, I donated $20.

• 26:53Steven Rinella?

  To his speech and debate program, perhaps I'm to blame.

• 26:57Speaker 07

  I, I thought this was going to be one of those scenarios where like the ex pro basketball player is watching his son get coached by a guy who, uh, never played pro basketball. Steps in, that's not how you do that.

• 27:09Steven Rinella?

  That's gotta happen. No, it really, it really shook, it really shook me up.

• 27:15Speaker 01

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• 27:46Steven Rinella?

  Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Chic. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between.

• 28:02Steven Rinella?

  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them.

• 28:18Steven Rinella?

  Like Miguel. That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push. To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 28:34Speaker 07

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 28:52Steven Rinella?

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:06Speaker 06

  Can I interrupt for a second? How, how good are we?

• 29:09Steven Rinella?

  Spin it. You're looking very good. Spin it.

• 29:14Steven Rinella?

  Spin it. Okay, we gotta sew that hole.

• 29:17Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 29:18Steven Rinella?

  With, with what's called a baseball stitch.

• 29:19Speaker 05

  Corey, can you pull that other mic towards you so we can see the... No, the, the, yeah, there, there you go.

• 29:24Steven Rinella?

  You're 100%, you're 100% there. Now, you'll see that there's a set nail on the bottom of that stretching board, Corin, behind you. A double-headed nail on the bottom.

• 29:35Speaker 06

  They're over here, there are two of these.

• 29:37Steven Rinella?

  No. The bottom of that stretching board, you're pointing to a fleshing beam.

• 29:43Speaker 07

  The one against the wall.

• 29:43Steven Rinella?

  Turn your attention to the fleshing, to, to the stretcher.

• 29:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, so there are two.

• 29:47Steven Rinella?

  And you'll see at the bottom of it, there is a double-headed nail. Pull that double-headed nail out. That will collapse and you can pull that coyote off that board.

• 30:00Steven Rinella?

  Make sure there's no thumbtack in it anywhere.

• 30:04Steven Rinella?

  Um. How easy is it to come out? Anyways, he says, "So kindly inform Max Care DDS..." This is the part I like the most. We're back to this. "So kindly inform Max Care DDS that my formula-drinking, pre-chewed deer meat-eating baby would whoop his baby any day of the week."

• 30:26Steven Rinella?

  That would be a great show if we had babies come and fight on this table.

• 30:31Speaker 07

  I think we could charge a pretty penny for...

• 30:33Speaker 05

  Tomorrow's enemies.

• 30:34Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 30:38Speaker 07

  And that's where he adds the mostly joking at the end of that.

• 30:41Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 30:44Steven Rinella?

  Good, you raise good points, but you raise good points. Thank you, Matthew.

• 30:53Steven Rinella?

  Who wants to set the, we're gonna move our attention over to Virginia.

• 31:00Steven Rinella?

  Well, it's kind of a letter that someone wrote in, so we'll just tackle, we'll tackle this whole thing. My good friend Bubbly Doug, Darren, who I adore.

• 31:10Steven Rinella?

  He's got some gripes. He's got some landowner gripeage. About this next subject. We're talking about deer hunting with hounds.

• 31:22Speaker 05

  Like, personal experience gripeage, or he just generally makes him uncomfortable?

• 31:27Steven Rinella?

  Well, no, no, I gotta explain a thing, cuz I'm a little ahead of myself. We're gonna move our attention to deer hunting with hounds in Virginia. The debate around that. Now, that's, in the south, you can do that. Just generally, like, there's a culture of hound hunting for deer in the south. There's not a culture of hound hunting for deer in the north. In the north, it's illegal. And there's a handful of southern states. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

• 31:51Steven Rinella?

  You remember a podcast episode we had that was called Skip the Flip?

• 31:55Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 31:57Steven Rinella?

  We're not skipping the flip.

• 32:01Speaker 05

  For those listeners at home, he's referring to Corinne's. Let's get back to the town thing.

• 32:06Steven Rinella?

  You gotta put them on inside out.

• 32:09Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 32:10Steven Rinella?

  And then you dry them overnight, inside out.

• 32:12Speaker 06

  Oh, I got it.

• 32:12Steven Rinella?

  And then you flip it, or else it'll dry to the board.

• 32:16Speaker 06

  Skip the flip.

• 32:17Steven Rinella?

  So skip the flip, cuz Mercer Lawing lives in the Mojave Desert. And he was pointing out that where he lives is so dry that they don't do, he doesn't need to do the two-part dry. He skips the flip and just puts it on hair side out.

• 32:34Speaker 06

  Right.

• 32:35Steven Rinella?

  But you need to dry the outside and then flip it so that it doesn't stick to the board and get rotten.

• 32:41Speaker 06

  Yep, got it.

• 32:42Steven Rinella?

  So it'll flip in the morning.

• 32:46Speaker 06

  Alright. I'm gonna pull the kind of snug here.

• 32:49Steven Rinella?

  Yep, you're getting there.

• 32:49Speaker 06

  And how much do we pull it? I like the nose, I don't want to stretch the nose.

• 32:54Steven Rinella?

  No, don't, don't stretch, just snug it up.

• 32:56Speaker 05

  Just snug it up.

• 32:56Steven Rinella?

  Snug it up on there.

• 32:58Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 32:58Speaker 05

  You'll get more nose.

• 32:59Steven Rinella?

  Yep. And then go ahead and pin those ears up, so it looks like that one for now, just pin them up. Yep.

• 33:05Speaker 06

  Like that way?

• 33:06Steven Rinella?

  Yep, just give them a light, don't, don't lay it, kind of roll it.

• 33:10Speaker 06

  Roll, like?

• 33:11Steven Rinella?

  So yeah, don't, not tight, you don't want to make a lot of surface connection there, just a light little pinning.

• 33:15Speaker 05

  I got the board.

• 33:16Steven Rinella?

  Uh.

• 33:19Steven Rinella?

  Hound hunting for deer, and, and I know that, like, Doug has, where Doug lives is popular to run coyotes with dogs. And Doug has, Doug, I hate to put, I'm not putting words in his mouth.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  Um. We'll find out if you're.

• 33:34Steven Rinella?

  Well Doug has brought up, Doug has brought up the, the difficulty of, in his area, the near impossibility of preventing your dogs from hunting other people's property.

• 33:42Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. Because you're talking about small farms, right?

• 33:44Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's like, you know, you got an area of small dairy farms, and you turn them out on a coyote, the coyote goes wherever he wants, the dogs are going wherever the coyote went, and you can't really even kind of suggest that you have any control over your dogs being in other people's places. So you're sitting there deer hunting, and all of a sudden, rrrr, rrrr, rrrr, you know, here comes everybody's pack of dogs, and he says it causes a lot of consternation in this area.

• 34:11Speaker 05

  But, it's, there's no rule against letting your dog run on other people's ground.

• 34:18Steven Rinella?

  I don't know, is that true?

• 34:20Speaker 05

  No, I'm asking, like, I would assume it's legal for, like, there, you're not doing anything ra, wrong if your dog runs a coyote across three or four different properties.

• 34:29Steven Rinella?

  Well, I know this, in this state that we're sitting in right now, if a dog attacks your livestock, there's no questions asked, you can kill that dog.

• 34:38Speaker 05

  Right.

• 34:39Steven Rinella?

  For harassing your livestock, right? Anyway, so here's a listener feedback, this is from a listener, yes, okay.

• 34:49Steven Rinella?

  Uh, the guy says this, "Recently, my state rejected regulations around the use of dogs for deer hunting. The mandated use of GPS collars and making reasonable effort to sh, to ensure dogs can't enter property where owners have requested dogs not be run."

• 35:08Steven Rinella?

  I'm torn on this issue because I see it as a slippery slope on both sides. Meaning, okay, so he's saying the state considered but ultimately rejected regulations that would have mandated deer hound hunters mandated that they put the GPS collar on their dog so that they know where the dog is. And then with using that GPS tracking collar, make effort to keep their dogs off of people's property.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  With a lot of those units, you can hit like a callback button that that dog will stop doing whatever it's doing and turn around.

• 35:46Steven Rinella?

  He says, "I'm torn on this issue because I see it as a slippery slope on both sides. On the one hand, I do not run dogs to hunt deer and have had many deer and turkey hunts in recent years disturbed by a pack of dogs, dogs running through the properties I can access. Given the limited weekend time I have to hunt between work responsibilities and small kids, having game runoff because of a pack of dogs coming onto a property is frustrating. I can also understand the frustration of property owners who have a pack of dogs run through and disturb their land, their livestock, or the game and habitat on their property.

• 36:27Steven Rinella?

  On the other hand, I recognize that hound hunting deer is an important tradition that many people in Virginia, is an important tradition to many people in Virginia. And though I don't run dogs for deer hunting, I have hunted, I have fox hunted with a pack of hounds, a pretty similar practice. I realize that in this way, my stance is somewhat hypocritical. Regulations on hunting fox with dogs in places like England have made my state one of the last...

• 36:58Steven Rinella?

  I'm gonna edit this a little bit.

• 36:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:00Steven Rinella?

  He's saying that his state is one of the last refuges of the sporting tradition of hound hunting with dogs.

• 37:07Speaker 05

  What?

• 37:08Steven Rinella?

  Fox hunting with dogs.

• 37:10Speaker 05

  No, it's just like, he's just saying it's one of the last places you can use hounds, which is a little.

• 37:18Steven Rinella?

  He's saying regulations on fox hunts in England

• 37:23Steven Rinella?

  have made my state one of the last.

• 37:26Speaker 05

  Fox hunting is also.

• 37:27Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I got you. I got, no, no, no, no. He's saying, here's what he's saying. I think saying like, hey, man, in places like England.

• 37:36Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 37:36Steven Rinella?

  They've regulated the piss out of hunting with dogs, fox hunting to the point where you basically can't do it. So he's saying, so with England out of the picture, Virginia has become one of the last places for the sporting tradition of hunting fox with hounds. That's what he's saying.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 37:55Steven Rinella?

  And he's saying that being able to hunt foxes with hounds is very effective in helping to manage fox and coyote populations. And he says also, just like deer hunting with dogs is constantly under attack. Fox hunting is also constantly under attack in Virginia from the usual suspects in the animal rights community.

• 38:18Steven Rinella?

  He goes on. I recognize the near possibility of keeping a large pack of dogs together and off adjoining properties while they are on the hunt. And I realize that hound hunters don't want to give an inch on the deer hunting issue because of the need to guard the gate. Meaning deer hound hunters in Virginia are fighting for the defense of their lifestyle and they're not in the mood to entertain compromises. And he says, which I fully understand and support. I also personally don't believe that the most recent proposed regulations would be all that effective in keeping a pack of dogs off adjoining properties.

• 38:58Steven Rinella?

  So that being said, what do you think can be done in cases like this where hunters are adversely affected by the actions and traditions of other hunters? I do think there is a legitimate question around the rights of private property owners, which would benefit me personally. But by regulating one group of hunters in this way, aren't we cracking open the door for the slow erosion of other hunting traditions? Very well put.

• 39:24Speaker 05

  Yep, that's the problem, like, like, you know, it doesn't bother you unless it's affecting you directly, right?

• 39:32Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:33Speaker 05

  But then when it affects you directly, it's like, you know, where does that put you? There's no good answer, right? Like,

• 39:40Steven Rinella?

  No, if I came from outer, if I lived on a planet, outer space.

• 39:47Steven Rinella?

  I was telling my kids the other day that from other planets' perspectives, we're in outer space.

• 39:50Speaker 05

  I was gonna say, you live on a planet.

• 39:53Steven Rinella?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 39:54Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 39:54Steven Rinella?

  They have a very like them-centric worldview.

• 39:57Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:57Steven Rinella?

  I was trying to be like, you know, we're in outer space.

• 40:00Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:00Steven Rinella?

  If someone is on another planet.

• 40:01Speaker 05

  If aliens came here, we'd be the aliens.

• 40:04Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they're talking about us being in outer space.

• 40:06Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:07Steven Rinella?

  Anyhow, if I lived on a planet in outer space and I was totally not, I was like totally rational, but completely unhip to social mores on Earth.

• 40:18Steven Rinella?

  You follow me? And someone said, hey, man, you know, as a Martian, do you think that someone should be able to take a big pack of dogs? And, and the person can't go on the neighbor's place, but he can send his dogs over on that neighbor's place to chase the deer back over to his place so he can shoot them? As a Martian, unattuned to, not tuned into mores on planet Earth, I would be like, no, I don't think you should be able to do that.

• 40:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:49Steven Rinella?

  It's called Mars justice.

• 40:53Speaker 07

  Sounds like a show.

• 40:54Steven Rinella?

  Like, like, I'm not into any kind of, you know, as a Martian, I'm not into like, any kind of long term, like, you know, I mean, I just take face value arguments. Right? I don't know the history.

• 41:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 41:09Steven Rinella?

  But I'm not from Mars.

• 41:11Speaker 05

  I mean, if you had a pack of dogs screw up your hunt a time or two, it'd be, it'd be hard to have the attitude like, I'm gonna take one for the team here, right?

• 41:19Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm. I'll put that Martian thing another way. Let's say you were setting up a whole new state.

• 41:26Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 41:26Steven Rinella?

  Like, you got a whole new state and you're in charge of setting up a whole new state and you gotta like, figure out all the rules. And when this came up, and they said, well, what are we gonna do about? Like, we all agree that you can't go on another guy's land without permission, right?

• 41:41Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 41:41Steven Rinella?

  And everybody's like, oh, yeah, that's, that's obvious. And they go, what about if he sends his big old pack of dogs all around to the neighbor's place?

• 41:49Steven Rinella?

  And brings all them deer back and then he, he gets them on his place? What, what should we do in our new state?

• 41:57Steven Rinella?

  There's no tradition.

• 41:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:58Steven Rinella?

  There's no tradition part of, that's what I'm trying to get at with this Martian stuff. There's, I'm, I'm not considering tradition.

• 42:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:04Steven Rinella?

  I would be like, in this state, this traditionless state, I would say that I don't think you should be able to do that.

• 42:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, but we're not talking about a new state. We're talking about a state that has a long tradition of, this is like, this is like your, this is like your, if days were 48 hours long argument, then why, it would be okay to wear the same outfit for those 48 hours.

• 42:25Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like, why I wear my clothes two days in a row?

• 42:28Speaker 07

  If we lived in a completely different reality, then this would be fine.

• 42:30Speaker 07

  Things would be different. Yes.

• 42:33Speaker 07

  I, I mean, th- this, I think, raises the question, like, in Montana, we actually did create a new hound hunting opportunity for black bears recently. And at the time it was proposed, I was a little nervous that going out in the spring, it would be a different experience. And it wasn't like I didn't, it's not like I,

• 42:55Speaker 05

  There'd just be dogs running everywhere.

• 42:56Speaker 07

  It's not like I don't support hound hunting, you know, like,

• 42:57Steven Rinella?

  You're straying all over the place, because this is about private property, buddy.

• 43:01Speaker 07

  Well, I've, no, I'm, we're talking about tradition and, and whether we're creating tradition or, or like, creating a new opportunity. And, and I will say, like, my concerns about that.

• 43:12Steven Rinella?

  You're talking about my new state.

• 43:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, that I was following up that that question like, I mean, there are instances where it's not just a new state, but there are new traditions being proposed.

• 43:24Steven Rinella?

  Understood.

• 43:24Speaker 07

  And I will say like it, it didn't change the spring blackbird hunt in the way that I thought it might, but.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  I got an answer for this guy. He just needs to get a pack of dogs.

• 43:32Steven Rinella?

  Here we go.

• 43:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:33Steven Rinella?

  Here's an answer.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  He just needs to get a pack of dogs.

• 43:37Speaker 05

  Then problem solved.

• 43:39Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 07

  But I do think that.

• 43:40Steven Rinella?

  If you can't beat them, join them.

• 43:41Speaker 07

  That's right. The private property thing is weird because I killed, I killed a lion a couple of years ago and when the dogs are chasing that lion, they picked up another lion and some of the lion, some of the dogs went down and treated a cat on private property in like a little subdivision.

• 43:57Speaker 05

  But in Montana, you're allowed to go legally go get your dogs off of.

• 44:02Speaker 07

  We, I mean, we went down and knocked on the door and got the dogs and the cat presumably.

• 44:09Speaker 05

  I'm pretty sure Yana said you can go like.

• 44:12Speaker 07

  But it's, but it was still, I mean, it still feels very uncomfortable, right? I'm kind of like, because I do think like if, if I were that homeowner and I looked out my window and there's like a couple of guys pulling their dogs away from a tree and there's a cat up there. Like, yeah, that's, it's a little weird and I felt funny about it, but I also don't know what you're gonna do.

• 44:33Steven Rinella?

  I've totally changed my mind now that I thought about it more. Now, if I was setting up a new state and someone brought this up, you know what I would think to myself?

• 44:42Speaker 07

  Everybody has to have dogs.

• 44:43Steven Rinella?

  No, picture this, just let me walk, let me picture a scenario here. We're looking at extremes. I'm looking at the extreme of the, he sends all of his dogs over there. He sends like 30 dogs over there to do like an organized drive.

• 44:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:56Steven Rinella?

  Right? And, and like strip this guy's property of deer.

• 44:59Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 45:00Steven Rinella?

  That's an extreme view. But picture this, picture little Tommy,

• 45:07Steven Rinella?

  little Tommy Dickinson is hunting rabbits with his beagle on the fence line with old man Morgan. So we got little Tommy Dickinson hunting old man Morgan's fence line. And he's got his little beagle, Patsy.

• 45:26Steven Rinella?

  Patsy periodically is under the fence, cross the fence, under the fence, cross the fence. What do you do? Shoot Tommy Dickinson?

• 45:34Speaker 07

  Or his dog.

• 45:35Steven Rinella?

  Shoot Patsy? Is that what you're saying?

• 45:37Speaker 07

  Shoot them both?

• 45:39Steven Rinella?

  Course not. He can't control Patsy's going around old man Morgan's place?

• 45:45Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 45:46Steven Rinella?

  No one would want to live in a place like this?

• 45:48Speaker 07

  What if that rabbit runs under Morgan's deck? And the dog followed him under the deck?

• 45:53Steven Rinella?

  And Morgan's on the deck, sleeping.

• 45:55Speaker 07

  What if the dog goes into Morgan's house and starts eating his cat's food?

• 46:02Speaker 07

  Then it gets sticky.

• 46:02Steven Rinella?

  That's why, that's why this is a tricky one, because it's a tricky one. You'd almost want to make a rule that says like, "Don't push it."

• 46:12Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:13Steven Rinella?

  If you're a hound hunter, don't push it.

• 46:16Speaker 07

  Control your dogs.

• 46:17Steven Rinella?

  Don't push it.

• 46:19Speaker 07

  Yeah. Or, look, you could kind of train up hound hunters to be like, "We're doing a deer push here with our hounds. Knock on some doors in advance, let the landowners know, maybe they'll come, I don't know. Like, there's ways to like, handle this that might make it more palatable to people.

• 46:40Steven Rinella?

  Okay, let me hit you with this one then, since we're playing this game.

• 46:45Steven Rinella?

  I talked about this, we had the, our rough cut episode, we got a rough cut episode, we talked about a bunch, where me and Seth are rattling bucks down in Texas. Now, we're hunting on a property where they don't do any kind of like food, feeding, licks, mineral licks, nothing. It's got natural water, well, like dirt tanks for cattle. Natural food, that's it. Then they'll lift a finger for the deer. For feeding them. The neighboring place is a very managed deer property. Okay? And they got all the feeders and all that kind of stuff. They're putting out like, they're like deworming the deer, all kinds of.

• 47:23Speaker 07

  But not high fences, or they do that?

• 47:25Steven Rinella?

  No, no.

• 47:26Speaker 07

  Gotcha.

• 47:26Steven Rinella?

  No, but they're like, taking care of deer, managing deer. We, we would make a habit of sitting close to that border, rattling, trying to rattle over the big.

• 47:36Speaker 07

  Those real healthy ones?

• 47:38Steven Rinella?

  Trying to rattle over, rattle over these like high protein mega bucks. Could you make the case, well, you're sound?

• 47:50Steven Rinella?

  Your sound is coming on to my property, taking my deer.

• 47:56Speaker 05

  No, you couldn't.

• 47:59Speaker 05

  Come on, it's a dog versus some rattlin?

• 48:05Steven Rinella?

  It's just, if you're setting up a new state, this is all stuff you gotta consider.

• 48:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, that one is, I don't think there's any like, wrong there, but yeah, if I was like, managing my deer herd and the neighbor just always set up on the property line, right?

• 48:23Speaker 05

  You might put a fence up.

• 48:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, I might put a fence up.

• 48:26Steven Rinella?

  That's a big part of growing up, though, is whatever place you have permission to hunt on, or whatever public land you got, you know, you know, the best hunting is right on the edge. You could get permission to be like, some guy's got 300 acres, and you look over at that neighbor's place, and you're like, I'm gonna sit right on the edge.

• 48:47Steven Rinella?

  It's gotta be better over there. And the neighbor's thinking to say anything about your place, so his tree stand is also right on the edge of the property you got permission on.

• 48:57Steven Rinella?

  But, you know, but I can only take this new state, Mars stuff so far, because like, there is the tradition thing. I've just really, uh,

• 49:08Steven Rinella?

  my sympathies go out to the hound hunters who are doing the same thing, but the, the culture is changing around them.

• 49:17Speaker 05

  Yeah. Let me ask you this.

• 49:19Steven Rinella?

  They're like holdouts.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  If, if, uh, this was Virginia, yeah?

• 49:25Speaker 05

  Let's say a ballot box movement came up to just outlaw hound hunting, deer hound hunting, like, what, you know, something just happened in Colorado.

• 49:37Steven Rinella?

  I'd fight it tooth and nail.

• 49:38Speaker 05

  Okay, that's,

• 49:41Speaker 05

  I mean, that's what it boils down to, right?

• 49:43Steven Rinella?

  I'd carpet, bag it from out here.

• 49:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:47Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think like,

• 49:49Steven Rinella?

  You know what that's a reference to?

• 49:51Speaker 05

  Someone throwing some bags in a carpet, or carpet in a bag?

• 49:54Steven Rinella?

  Reconstruction.

• 49:55Speaker 05

  I know.

• 49:57Steven Rinella?

  Why'd you act like you're dumb?

• 49:59Speaker 05

  Cause you, you obviously wanted to explain it.

• 50:05Steven Rinella?

  Thank you.

• 50:09Steven Rinella?

  You're like, he's gonna explain it no matter what.

• 50:10Speaker 07

  Why'd you act like you were dumb? Cause I knew you wanted to act like you were smart. Teed up.

• 50:19Steven Rinella?

  Thanks, man.

• 50:19Speaker 07

  No, I. My reaction to this guy's letter is like, yeah, it's complicated. You know, like I, he sees it from a lot of different ways than I do too.

• 50:29Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:31Steven Rinella?

  I'll propose that I'm gonna propose the most, the only constructive thing I have to say on this thing. I would, if I was a, if I.

• 50:46Steven Rinella?

  I'm not a deer hound hunter in Virginia, but I'm a occasional recreational trapper in Montana.

• 50:56Steven Rinella?

  I don't always do just what I, I don't always do what I could.

• 51:04Steven Rinella?

  I don't always do what I could.

• 51:05Speaker 07

  Totally.

• 51:07Steven Rinella?

  Because in my mind, I'm like, yeah, you know, you could do that. You could do that.

• 51:15Steven Rinella?

  You might get someone real upset. But you could do it, but I could also do it over there and not have anybody get real upset. And sure, I could do that, but I'm just not gonna do it.

• 51:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:27Steven Rinella?

  Cause I don't wanna. You know? I, I, I don't, when I sense that I'm doing a thing that like, well, yeah, you could, but I shy away from those, in those moments. You know? And if I was a deer hound hunter in Virginia and I thought, there's nothing stopping me from hunting, what was his name? The old man?

• 51:51Speaker 07

  Morgan.

• 51:52Steven Rinella?

  Morgan. You know, I know old man Morgan has asked me a hundred times not to hunt his place on the opening day. But he can't stop me.

• 52:05Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 52:05Steven Rinella?

  What's the, so I'm gonna hunt old man Morgan.

• 52:07Speaker 07

  I feel like the same way when I'm gonna go hunt a spot and there's two trucks parked where I wanted to park. My attitude isn't like.

• 52:17Speaker 07

  I can do whatever I want. It's kinda like, if I were parked here, I wouldn't want someone to pull in behind me.

• 52:22Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I was gonna put decoys on that pond and no one can stop me. So move your decoys over.

• 52:29Speaker 07

  I was gonna sit in that tree and there's a guy sitting in this tree. I'm gonna sit right next to him.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'd say if you're a deer hound hunter in Virginia, the best way to make sure it sticks around for a while to just show some courtesy and some restraint now and then.

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• 54:10Steven Rinella?

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• 54:34Steven Rinella?

  Moving on across the country to Arizona.

• 54:38Speaker 05

  No, we're not doing this. We're skipping this, remember?

• 54:41Steven Rinella?

  Well, no, he's just asking a question.

• 54:43Speaker 05

  No, no, this is, this is not.

• 54:46Steven Rinella?

  Oh, we're skipping this?

• 54:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, we're skipping this. Should've just, yeah.

• 54:50Steven Rinella?

  Moving on across the country to?

• 54:53Speaker 05

  Reciprocity.

• 54:54Steven Rinella?

  The Dakotas.

• 54:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, moving to the Dakotas. Kind of across the country, a good, across a chunk of it.

• 55:01Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:04Steven Rinella?

  On a recent podcast episode, six seventeen, if you haven't put this together yet, we're talking about, uh, old podcast episode discussion points.

• 55:14Steven Rinella?

  We touched on a thing that states do called reciprocity. And I had always known reciprocity only under the, uh, interesting little management.

• 55:30Steven Rinella?

  I'm struggling here. Uh, I had known reciprocity only in one context.

• 55:36Steven Rinella?

  In fur bearer management, they use reciprocity to even the playing field from one state to the next according to how their policies toward non-residents. That was a terrible sentence, but hear me out.

• 55:52Steven Rinella?

  Montana, historically, has not allowed non-residents to buy a fur harvester license. Okay? So, of the species that are liv- are managed as fur-bearing animals, muskrat, mink, otter, beaver, bobcat, okay, they're managed as fur-bearing animals. There was no non-resident opportunity to do with that in Montana. They changed it, but there wasn't.

• 56:23Steven Rinella?

  So they would set, other states would set up a thing called reciprocity, meaning, um, a state would say, "We will sell you a non-resident trapping permit if your state would sell one of our residents a non-resident trapping permit." And because of reciprocity, if you lived in Montana, you didn't fur trap out of state in a state that practiced reciprocity. Cause like dude, you can't prevent, like you're preventing our citizens from buying the tags, but then you want to come here and buy one of ours?

• 56:58Speaker 05

  They do the same with license prices too, in some cases.

• 57:01Steven Rinella?

  Oh, do they?

• 57:01Speaker 05

  I thi- I think maybe like, you come to a state and pay a thousand bucks for an elk tag.

• 57:08Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  People from that state come to your, your state to buy a deer tag and they're going to charge you. I think there are examples of-

• 57:17Steven Rinella?

  They'll stick it to them.

• 57:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:18Steven Rinella?

  Well, the other example that I wasn't even aware of is, is South Dakota had a reciprocity, was it North or South Dakota had this?

• 57:29Speaker 05

  South Dakota.

• 57:30Steven Rinella?

  Had a, no, the spearfishing one.

• 57:33Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 57:34Steven Rinella?

  North Dakota.

• 57:34Speaker 05

  North Dakota, yeah.

• 57:35Steven Rinella?

  North Dakota had a reciprocity around spear and pike through the ice.

• 57:39Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:40Steven Rinella?

  They're like, "You can spear pike through the ice if a North Dakotan can spear pike through the ice on your place." And I was musing about this reciprocity issue, cause I was saying, "Let's say Colorado had passed, it failed, but let's say Proposition 127 had passed in Colorado and suddenly, um, you cannot hunt lions in Colorado." Would a state ever exercise reciprocity to a Colorado resident? Meaning a Colorado resident wants to come to Montana and they're like, "Hey, I want to buy a mountain lion tag." Montana would say, "No, because our residents can't hunt mountain lions in your state."

• 58:18Steven Rinella?

  Right? Mm hmm. I was musing about this, just the issue of reciprocity. And we got some listener feedback from it. A guy writes in, I had the opportunity to tune into the Poppin' Corks podcast. That was a name of an episode. Where the topic of reciprocity was discussed from a wildlife management perspective.

• 58:38Steven Rinella?

  While I can stack hands, I never heard this expression before.

• 58:43Steven Rinella?

  While I can stack hands on the idea of states and their respective agencies dictating reciprocity rules for state managed species. I find it a hard pill to swallow when it comes to the topic of federally managed species, specifically and selfishly waterfowl. He goes on, why is it that a state such as South Dakota can have a non-resident lottery for a federally managed species? I buy a federal duck stamp, which presumably some of this money goes to habitat and conservation activities in the state of South Dakota, among all others. Why then would I not have the same opportunity as a resident?

• 59:30Steven Rinella?

  He goes on, you know, uh, he's not advocating to pay a resident rate. Blah, blah, blah. I don't mean to blah, blah, blah out of disrespect, but I mean, that's, that's the basic idea what he's saying, what he's overlooking something.

• 59:44Steven Rinella?

  Oh, he goes, there's one in another point he makes. This became more top of mind to me when the limitation of non-resident hunters was brought up with respect to Stockard, Arkansas. He says, indeed reciprocity is a slippery slope. Uh, Alec, you're overlooking something. Ducks aren't just, they're not just federally managed, they're state and federal.

• 1:00:08Steven Rinella?

  And international.

• 1:00:10Speaker 07

  And I also think like the reciprocity thing is a little more complicated than just treating residents and non-residents the same. The reciprocity is about one state treating non-residents in their state and another state treating non-residents to that state in the same way, right?

• 1:00:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's a state having, it's a, it's a state having varied attitudes toward non-residents depending on what state they come from and what the rules of that state are.

• 1:00:39Speaker 07

  Yeah, so here, I'm not clear how the reciprocity, he seems to have more of a complaint with

• 1:00:47Speaker 07

  the difference between residents and non-residents.

• 1:00:50Steven Rinella?

  It got him thinking. The reciprocity thing got him thinking.

• 1:00:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:55Steven Rinella?

  About this. Yeah, they're, okay, just a couple of things here before take, really take on the question.

• 1:01:04Steven Rinella?

  You're right, there's federal oversight of waterfowl regulations. Waterfowl regulations are jointly managed by the feds and the state. You might say, well, why the hell is that? Well, think about it. They're migratory, okay? So let's say you had one state that totally shit the bed on waterfowl management and they kill every duck that comes through their state. Well, that state is then screwing over other states along the flyway. So there's like some federal oversight, meaning these birds aren't stationary. They, they, they move internationally in some cases. I mean, there's many birds that are, they're nesting in, in northern Alaska. They fly all across Canada.

• 1:01:46Steven Rinella?

  They fly over six or seven states, maybe more on the way down and they ultimately, you know, some of our teal will winter in the Bahamas, will have ducks that winter in Mexico, right? So there's an international bird. So there's international and federal oversight on waterfowl management, but the state still plays a very important role in rule setting and enforcement. And when they look at things like bag limits on ducks, the feds factor in the importance of the state to waterfowl preservation in general. Meaning if you're a state that has, that hosts a lot of breeding pairs of birds for a long period of time,

• 1:02:30Steven Rinella?

  you're going to be treated differently than a state that maybe they only pass through for a month out of the year. All fair. So it's like, it's not just federal. It's federal and state.

• 1:02:44Steven Rinella?

  That's the thing. That's why you gotta have a state waterfall stamp. And a federal waterfall stamp. So I don't think the feds are saying, the feds aren't saying, and I got an idea, they're not, they're not going like, the feds aren't going, and let's have it be that in South Dakota, non-residents can't hunt. That's not coming from the feds. That's coming from the state who has management authority.

• 1:03:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. What exactly, like, what kind of lot, are we talking about lottery for drawing?

• 1:03:19Steven Rinella?

  They capped, South Dakota's capped, you gotta draw to hunt ducks in South Dakota. I drew it a couple of years ago. We went and hunted ducks in South Dakota and we like drew the.

• 1:03:28Speaker 05

  Is it a statewide deal or specific areas or?

• 1:03:31Steven Rinella?

  I feel like it's statewide. I could be wrong. I can't remember.

• 1:03:34Speaker 07

  It looks.

• 1:03:35Steven Rinella?

  And then they have different dates too.

• 1:03:37Speaker 05

  And it's just.

• 1:03:37Steven Rinella?

  They have a resident opener, a non-resident opener. His whole gripe, I think his whole gripe is he's saying, how could you have a thing where there's federal oversight? But you have states making up their own rules. And it's like, I guess the simplest answer is, it's not just federal oversight.

• 1:03:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, the state, South Dakota's Fish and Game Agency is also managing those ducks and geese.

• 1:04:02Speaker 05

  Simple as that.

• 1:04:03Speaker 07

  In addition to.

• 1:04:06Steven Rinella?

  Here's another guy on reciprocity.

• 1:04:09Steven Rinella?

  He says, he points out what he's eating.

• 1:04:13Steven Rinella?

  As he writes, this is eating eggs, chicken, and pomegranate seeds.

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  That is an interesting combination.

• 1:04:24Steven Rinella?

  He says, let's say you invite me to your home.

• 1:04:30Steven Rinella?

  Okay, he says, let's say you invite me to your home and you let me know there's a no shoes in the house policy for the purpose of keeping your carpet clean.

• 1:04:41Speaker 06

  Every Asian household.

• 1:04:43Steven Rinella?

  I obviously, it's like, man, my wife's trying to pull that on me right now.

• 1:04:48Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:04:49Steven Rinella?

  She's trying to, after all these years, she claims that it's always been that way. I just haven't listened.

• 1:04:53Speaker 06

  No, it's just so much better. You just leave your shoes, you just leave your outside shoes.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Hard disagree.

• 1:04:59Steven Rinella?

  But you're Asian.

• 1:04:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yes.

• 1:05:01Steven Rinella?

  It's like, no shit, it's obvious to you.

• 1:05:03Speaker 05

  Especially when you're like going in and out of the house, doing shit, you gotta take them off.

• 1:05:07Steven Rinella?

  That's my whole thing. And they're all dirty. I gotta get my hands all dirty.

• 1:05:11Speaker 06

  No, leave them untied.

• 1:05:13Speaker 05

  Indoor crocs and outdoor crocs.

• 1:05:15Speaker 06

  You're exiting. See, there you go. He's not Asian and he's got a thing.

• 1:05:19Steven Rinella?

  I have these wool over shoes that you put, you slip your feet into to then run through the house.

• 1:05:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, or you could do that. But no, just don't.

• 1:05:26Steven Rinella?

  It's like a giant flip flop. No, it's like a giant slide in.

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  You gotta get your kids to buy into it too, if you got kids, and that's difficult, man.

• 1:05:35Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's your thing. It's like the dog don't take its feet off.

• 1:05:38Speaker 06

  Well, some people whitewash their dog's feet before they go inside.

• 1:05:43Speaker 05

  That's just too much work.

• 1:05:44Steven Rinella?

  We just mop.

• 1:05:45Speaker 06

  I, I will wipe my dog's feet off.

• 1:05:47Steven Rinella?

  I might switch, cause my wife, it drives my wife bananas.

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  You think he's eating a fried egg or scrambled eggs with his chicken and pomegranates?

• 1:05:54Speaker 06

  You think the pomegranates raw or like, you know, like?

• 1:05:57Steven Rinella?

  Fried egg and chicken? That's a little bit like that.

• 1:06:00Speaker 06

  That's like the new steak and eggs.

• 1:06:02Steven Rinella?

  Fried chicken. Fried egg and chicken. It's like that Old Testament prohibition against eating, um, meat and milk together. Like, like you can't eat, like you wouldn't boil a calf in its mother's milk.

• 1:06:15Speaker 06

  Like separating the?

• 1:06:16Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's like a chicken and the egg. It's like, jeez, what came first?

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  Am I right?

• 1:06:22Speaker 05

  Give him a break.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  Reminds me when I was in Hawaii eating scrambled eggs and there was a chicken pecking at my feet. It's kinda weird.

• 1:06:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he's like, it's my babies. Circle of life.

• 1:06:31Speaker 05

  Let's get back to the shoe.

• 1:06:32Speaker 06

  I love that rabbit hole.

• 1:06:36Steven Rinella?

  He, okay, so I tell him, hey, man, I, this guy here, he writes in, I tell him, I said, hey, man, don't wear your shoes in my house. I want to keep my carpet clean. He says, I obviously respect that rule and leave my stinkers. It's a euphemism for shoes, I gather. Leave my stinkers at the door outside.

• 1:06:53Speaker 05

  Unless he's got really smelly feet, then you'd want him to keep his shoes on.

• 1:06:55Steven Rinella?

  Here's where it gets rich.

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  Good point.

• 1:06:57Steven Rinella?

  Here's where it gets rich.

• 1:06:58Speaker 06

  Code cheese on the inside.

• 1:06:59Steven Rinella?

  He goes on to say, one week later, I invite you to my home. I do not have such a shoe rule. In fact, I have no carpet in the house, but since I had to take my shoes off at your house, I then tell you to leave your shoes at the door as I walk around in my own shoes.

• 1:07:27Speaker 05

  Sounds deranged.

• 1:07:29Steven Rinella?

  He's equating all of this to reciprocity.

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:07:32Steven Rinella?

  But then, I got lost.

• 1:07:33Speaker 05

  My, my, I think he's kinda on track.

• 1:07:37Speaker 07

  No, but the, but he says, that's petty and irrational. I think the better metaphor is you come into my house and I crack open a beer and I tell you, I don't let people who don't live in this house eat or drink in my house. And then I go over to your house and I want to eat your food. Right? Like, like, there's not a, this is silly because it doesn't affect anybody, but the reality is, like, if you, if you told somebody that they can't have any of, like, a beer in the fridge, and then you went over to their house and grabbed a beer out of their fridge, that would be weird.

• 1:08:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:20Steven Rinella?

  I used to want to open a business where I would help people rationalize irrational decisions.

• 1:08:27Speaker 05

  You gotta come up with a good name for that one.

• 1:08:29Speaker 06

  We've got a podcast to do that on. That can be a new segment.

• 1:08:33Steven Rinella?

  Well, because it'd be like, let's say a guy wants to buy a new truck, but it just makes zero sense, right?

• 1:08:37Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:38Steven Rinella?

  He'd call, and I'd be like, hey, man, you work hard, you know?

• 1:08:41Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Steven Rinella?

  I mean, do you feel like your full self in that old truck? Like, don't you feel that you're gonna show up better at work and show up better for your family when you feel more confident?

• 1:08:52Speaker 07

  Everything would be different.

• 1:08:53Speaker 05

  So what you're gonna be is an enabler and a pusher.

• 1:08:55Steven Rinella?

  And then he'll hang on and be like, God, I am gonna buy that truck.

• 1:08:58Speaker 05

  Putting American families in

• 1:08:59Steven Rinella?

  And then you get a little commission from Ford.

• 1:09:02Speaker 06

  We should bring Suzy Orman back on the show for that.

• 1:09:05Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Speaker 07

  Listeners decide if they want.

• 1:09:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, so it's like, and this is his thing. This guy could start a little project where he takes complex law issues and brings them home. You know, complex law issues and he brings them into like household analogies.

• 1:09:24Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Speaker 06

  But if you like Steve's idea, then write into the meat eater podcast at the meat eater dot com with your dilemmas.

• 1:09:34Steven Rinella?

  Yep, something you need to justify, but you just can't. Or I'll help you. If you're trying to like get something out of your wife or get a concession out of your wife, but you can't think of how to approach it, I'll walk you through it.

• 1:09:47Speaker 06

  What do they put in the subject line?

• 1:09:49Steven Rinella?

  Um, I need help.

• 1:09:52Speaker 06

  That's perfect. I need help.

• 1:09:54Speaker 07

  I don't know. We occasionally get emails every now and then from people who really do need help. So we might just, there might be a boy cried wolf situation there.

• 1:10:04Steven Rinella?

  On the same subject, sort of the same subject. It really is like the reciprocity thing really got folks.

• 1:10:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, a lot of people wrote in.

• 1:10:12Steven Rinella?

  Okay, so here's this one.

• 1:10:15Steven Rinella?

  Not the same thing as reciprocity, but a, a, something that seems unfair. Okay. Dear Meat Eater Crew.

• 1:10:25Steven Rinella?

  I know the subject of paying higher prices if you are a non-resident has been covered on the podcast, but I'm in a situation that I don't think has been covered and would like to get everyone's thoughts. I'll try to make a long story short. I grew up in the northern lower peninsula of Michigan where my family owns hunting land with a camp. After I graduated high school, I joined the military, did 20 years. Here he's stacking the deck.

• 1:10:56Speaker 07

  He is. He's setting.

• 1:10:57Speaker 05

  Self up as

• 1:10:58Steven Rinella?

  He's stacking the deck.

• 1:10:59Speaker 05

  He's trying to like gain points in his favor.

• 1:11:02Steven Rinella?

  Yup. It has nothing, with all due respect, respect it. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service. But this is bullshit.

• 1:11:09Speaker 05

  It should have no impact on his art.

• 1:11:11Speaker 06

  He may have taken, he may have taken the class that your kids.

• 1:11:15Speaker 05

  Right, but nothing he's saying, no.

• 1:11:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's true. This is the kind of thing I would help someone with.

• 1:11:20Speaker 05

  It would be like if Steve murdered someone and they were like, but he was a really good guy.

• 1:11:25Speaker 07

  What about, what about if it written in, I graduated high school and I never quite really figured out what I wanted to do. Kind of bounced around for a while.

• 1:11:33Steven Rinella?

  Got in trouble with the law. And now I'd like to buy a resident hunting license. So you're stat, you know, he's stacking the deck, but I'll let him do it. I'll get, I'll let him do it. After I graduated high school, I joined the military, did 20 years. Thank you for your service. I, I'm, uh, uh.

• 1:11:52Steven Rinella?

  He's stacking the deck.

• 1:11:53Speaker 05

  Well, I think it, and it conflates it.

• 1:11:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. So, so put that out of your head and weighing the fairness of this, he's, he tainted the jury. They call it, he tainted the jury.

• 1:12:02Speaker 05

  You would start here.

• 1:12:03Steven Rinella?

  Yup. And now, so now we're back to the fact of the matter with all due respect. And now I am a permanent resident of Wisconsin, which is where my wife is from. That's a good detail. That's not stacking the deck.

• 1:12:18Steven Rinella?

  He goes on, I do bow hunt in Wisconsin. He doesn't mention this as a resident, under resident pricing. He doesn't mention that. I do bow hunt in Wisconsin, but I still go to Michigan every year for the firearm deer season to hunt at our camp. And of course, now I have to pay for a non-resident license.

• 1:12:45Steven Rinella?

  Last year, my dad took his name off the deed and added mine to it. I am now part owner, along with a couple other family members. Which means I'm paying my part of the property taxes, utilities and everything else that goes along with owning a hunting camp. It seems to me that this is a little on the unfair side. Because of all the other monies I am paying to the state of Michigan by owning land. That I still have to pay full price for a non-resident hunting license. He proposes a third category.

• 1:13:19Steven Rinella?

  He feels that there should be a third category called the non-resident landowner.

• 1:13:27Speaker 05

  To be fair.

• 1:13:28Steven Rinella?

  No, no, no.

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  Just wait.

• 1:13:30Speaker 06

  It can go so many ways.

• 1:13:31Speaker 05

  Montana has that coming home to hunt thing, which is.

• 1:13:35Steven Rinella?

  Yup.

• 1:13:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Speaker 06

  Really?

• 1:13:37Speaker 07

  Love that.

• 1:13:37Steven Rinella?

  Coming home to hunt.

• 1:13:38Speaker 05

  But anyway, he's, what he's saying is he deserves a discount, right?

• 1:13:43Steven Rinella?

  He says, hey, I'm paying property taxes in Michigan, I deserve a discount. But here's the thing, from a state fish and game agency's perspective, you can only be a resident of one state.

• 1:13:50Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 1:13:50Steven Rinella?

  Does he vote twice?

• 1:13:52Speaker 07

  I don't understand why, uh, why this is so like fuzzy. You know, like if you get busted for poaching, your name goes into a database and then you're, you lose hunting and fishing privileges.

• 1:14:07Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:14:08Speaker 07

  In all these other compact states.

• 1:14:09Steven Rinella?

  In forty, in forty-four states.

• 1:14:11Speaker 07

  Why don't we just have a database where you, you are a resident of this state and it just cross-references it? Cause you hear all the time about people buying three or four.

• 1:14:20Speaker 05

  Oh, sure.

• 1:14:20Steven Rinella?

  I hear people get in trouble for it.

• 1:14:22Speaker 05

  When, when I was running the fly shop, like we were a licensed vendor back in Colorado and there's a lot of second homeowners in the valley we lived in. And this shit came up all the time for fishing licenses, elk tags, every, they'd bring in bills, they'd show you, they're like, they'd show you all sorts of shit to like, be like, look, and I'm like, dude.

• 1:14:44Speaker 06

  What is your driver's license say?

• 1:14:44Speaker 05

  You're not a resident, like, there's nothing I can do about it.

• 1:14:48Steven Rinella?

  He goes on to bring up another gripe, um, I'm not hacking on the guy, it's great questions. He brings up another gripe, uh, there's a lot of elk in that area, but it's a draw, but the elk draw isn't, and he's got elk to come onto his family's property, but he's not eligible for the elk draw cause he's not a resident. I would look at it like this, his name's Scott, Scott, I would think about it a little bit like this. Would you write us saying, hey, man, I vote in Wisconsin, but I own a place in Michigan, so I'd like to vote there too? Or would you write into us and say, hey, I'm applying for, uh, unemployment privileges in Wisconsin, but I have a place in Michigan, I want to apply for unemployment benefits in Michigan too?

• 1:15:35Steven Rinella?

  I mean, of course not.

• 1:15:36Speaker 07

  It wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a state out there that had a non-resident landowner category pricing difference.

• 1:15:44Steven Rinella?

  No, because you know, there's gonna be a lot of money that's put into lobbying for that rule.

• 1:15:48Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:15:49Steven Rinella?

  And you could picture how that rule would come to be.

• 1:15:51Speaker 07

  Non-resident landowner preferences in the draw, which has been a, you know, a thing.

• 1:15:56Steven Rinella?

  Oh, this guy, we should know about this.

• 1:15:59Steven Rinella?

  Scott, you're gonna dig, you're gonna dig this one. If the, if your situation was going on in other states, there'd probably be a thing where you were eligible, there might be a thing where you guys were eligible for landowner tags that wouldn't matter where you were a resident. You just, this is all happening to you in the wrong state.

• 1:16:17Speaker 07

  Yep. But I'd look at it this way. You got a great hunting camp in Michigan. You're resident of Wisconsin, so you can hunt there. Tags are a little more expensive, but it sounds pretty good.

• 1:16:30Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:16:30Speaker 06

  How much are tags there? Like, how much are we talking about?

• 1:16:34Steven Rinella?

  Couple hundred bucks.

• 1:16:35Speaker 05

  Not western price, non-resident prices.

• 1:16:37Speaker 06

  So it's not like if he, that he'd be saving like thousands of dollars?

• 1:16:42Speaker 05

  And I'll bet you can shoot a whole pile of deer on that Michigan license if you wanted to.

• 1:16:49Steven Rinella?

  Sorry, Scott.

• 1:16:50Speaker 06

  Transfers his residence to Michigan and becomes an out-of-stater in Wisconsin.

• 1:16:54Speaker 07

  Non-resident looks like 190 bucks versus.

• 1:16:59Speaker 05

  That's a smoking deal.

• 1:17:00Speaker 07

  Forty bucks.

• 1:17:00Steven Rinella?

  What I feel Scott should, if he was gonna, if he was gonna rate out what chaps his ass more, I feel like he should have greater ass chap over the elk thing.

• 1:17:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Steven Rinella?

  That would chap my ass more than the 190. Cause he's hunting at home for 20 bucks.

• 1:17:17Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Steven Rinella?

  In Wisconsin.

• 1:17:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, the elk thing's tough.

• 1:17:24Steven Rinella?

  Oh, you know what? Here's the deal too. I could, okay, my mom still lives in the house I was brought up in. I could say to my mom, I could be like, hey, mom, we need to get my name. I wanna get my name on the deed to the house.

• 1:17:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Steven Rinella?

  So that I can start hunting there as a resident.

• 1:17:43Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:17:46Speaker 07

  I mean, that's the

• 1:17:47Steven Rinella?

  That's a low

• 1:17:47Speaker 07

  Right.

• 1:17:48Steven Rinella?

  Blow.

• 1:17:48Speaker 07

  That's, I feel like that's why residency has to be very particular, you know, like, cause, cause there's all kinds of ways guys could fuzz it up.

• 1:17:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you know what I would do? I would go around to every state and I'd be like, I'd call Realtor, I'd be like,

• 1:18:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Steven Rinella?

  I want to buy the dumbest, shittiest little lot you could find.

• 1:18:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Steven Rinella?

  Like, it doesn't even need to be big enough for me to stand on.

• 1:18:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Steven Rinella?

  Like, if you could find any weird little thing I can buy, that way I could be a resident.

• 1:18:15Speaker 07

  In a county with the lowest taxes.

• 1:18:17Steven Rinella?

  That way I can hunt as a resident there.

• 1:18:18Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:20Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, Scott, you should be ashamed of yourself, Scott. From Green Bay.

• 1:18:25Speaker 07

  I don't know.

• 1:18:28Speaker 06

  Thanks for being a listener, Scott.

• 1:18:33Speaker 05

  Sorry, buddy.

• 1:18:35Steven Rinella?

  I love you to death, Scott, but I just, oh, you know what I failed to say? He says, "Am I just whining over nothing?"

• 1:18:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:18:48Speaker 07

  He's not whining over nothing.

• 1:18:49Steven Rinella?

  We could have shortened that whole thing up and said, "Uh-huh."

• 1:18:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, he's not saying, he's not saying, "I want to get a resident tag." To be fair, he's not saying I should be able to get a resident tag.

• 1:18:59Steven Rinella?

  Fees.

• 1:18:59Speaker 07

  He's just saying somewhere in the middle, like

• 1:19:01Speaker 05

  Cut him a break.

• 1:19:02Steven Rinella?

  Yo.

• 1:19:02Speaker 07

  Somewhere in the middle.

• 1:19:03Steven Rinella?

  Cut the guy a break.

• 1:19:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Steven Rinella?

  20 years in the military, cut me a break.

• 1:19:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, let him apply for an Elk tag.

• 1:19:07Steven Rinella?

  So, he, he ends his thing, in all fairness to Scott, he ends his thing, "So do I have a legitimate complaint about paying non-resident fees?

• 1:19:14Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:19:15Steven Rinella?

  Or am I just whining over nothing? Thanks for your thoughts on this."

• 1:19:26Steven Rinella?

  I, you know, he should, he should go hunt Doug's place.

• 1:19:32Speaker 05

  With dogs.

• 1:19:33Speaker 07

  Yeah, with dogs.

• 1:19:35Steven Rinella?

  He should get a big pack of dogs and go down and run them through Doug's property.

• 1:19:39Speaker 07

  And wear his shoes, wear his shoes in Doug's house.

• 1:19:43Speaker 06

  Doug wouldn't care.

• 1:19:44Steven Rinella?

  Dude, at Doug's house, you gotta put your shoes on to go inside.

• 1:19:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Speaker 06

  The floor will make your feet dirty.

• 1:19:53Steven Rinella?

  You're looking at it like, yeah, I think I'll put my shoes on, put on my rubber boots. I don't mean Doug's house, that's me. Doug's, the farm.

• 1:19:58Speaker 06

  No, that's the barn.

• 1:19:59Speaker 05

  Farm camp.

• 1:19:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, their camp. But now, then he cleans up and he kinda got, he used to have this thing where, you know those, uh, those little ladybugs that aren't ladybugs?

• 1:20:10Speaker 06

  Are they just like white ones of black spots?

• 1:20:12Steven Rinella?

  No, it looks just like a ladybug, but it's a Asian, uh...

• 1:20:14Speaker 05

  Japanese, you're not talking about Japanese beetles.

• 1:20:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:18Speaker 05

  We had a lot of those around Pennsylvania.

• 1:20:19Steven Rinella?

  Oh my god, they'd carpet the place.

• 1:20:21Speaker 05

  They'll eat the shit out of your stuff.

• 1:20:22Steven Rinella?

  You know, like, you, you know those little pole cords? In the upstairs, they got like a four foot ceiling?

• 1:20:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Steven Rinella?

  Where we sleep up there? And he's got pole cords, you know, turn the light on and off?

• 1:20:33Steven Rinella?

  It'll be that, it'll be that they'll, those little Japanese beetles?

• 1:20:38Steven Rinella?

  Will be covering the pole cord.

• 1:20:39Speaker 06

  Mexican bean beetle? I don't think it's the Japanese.

• 1:20:42Speaker 05

  No, they're like a shiny copper color.

• 1:20:43Steven Rinella?

  No, no, no, it looks like a ladybug, but it's not.

• 1:20:46Speaker 05

  Well then we're not talking about the same thing.

• 1:20:48Steven Rinella?

  Son of a gun.

• 1:20:51Steven Rinella?

  Just trying to wrap the show up. Hold on, type in like... Six people with, with computers, let's see how long this takes.

• 1:20:57Speaker 07

  Looks like a ladybug, but not.

• 1:21:00Steven Rinella?

  It is a...

• 1:21:02Speaker 06

  Try Mexican bean beetle.

• 1:21:03Speaker 07

  Dude looks like a lady by Aerosmith.

• 1:21:06Steven Rinella?

  Asian lady, Asian lady beetles.

• 1:21:08Speaker 06

  Mexican bean beetle, look at that.

• 1:21:14Steven Rinella?

  Asian lady beetles. So...

• 1:21:16Speaker 06

  Mexican Asian.

• 1:21:17Steven Rinella?

  So many of those were in his place that, you know those pole cords, you go, turn the lights on and off? It would be, I'm not, you think I'm exaggerating, I'm not. So many of them on that string, that the ones on the bottom like, ah, falling away. And there's more coming across the ceiling and getting on the rope and like the lower guys like, I can barely hang on, duh! I mean,

• 1:21:40Steven Rinella?

  you wake up, they're in your hair. So yeah, when that was going on, you'd have to put your shoe, you'd wanna put shoes on to go in, but he had a, he had a

• 1:21:51Steven Rinella?

  infestation exterminator type dude come out and put some stuff in the walls to try to get a grip on it. It was bad. And I'm not even gonna talk about the flies.

• 1:22:03Speaker 06

  Oh, this is interesting about the Asian lady beetle.

• 1:22:06Steven Rinella?

  Doug, I love that place. Man, that's my favorite place in the world. Alright, thanks for joining everybody. Tune in next time.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  ...

• 1:25:15Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house, they all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and

• 1:25:58Steven Rinella?

  years of use out of a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today.

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• 1:27:11Speaker 00

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