Breakup Bootcamp with Amy Chan (re-release)

We're rereleasing a classic episode that's been known to change lives, and we hope you enjoy relistening or listening for the first time! Amy Chan, founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp, joins us to map out the path from heartbroken to happy. We discuss actions to take in the first weeks post-breakup when you feel like you're gonna die, recognizing your dating patterns and changing them, how to stop toxic relationship fantasizing, and more. Enjoy! Follow Amy on Instagram at @MissAmyChan and check out her Breakup Bootcamp. Follow us @GirlsGottaEatPodcast, Rayna @Rayna. Greenberg, and Ashley @AshHess. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Everything clicked and I shifted and reframed my relationship with what had happened and I went from being a victim to being empowered.

• 0:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi guys.

• 0:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi guys.

• 0:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to sort of another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so it is Labor Day that this drops and typically we would take it off, but we thought, let's just release an old classic. So we dipped into the archives and found one of our absolute favorites. And it's the very first time we had Amy Chan on to talk about how to get over and heal after a breakup. And this was before COVID, it was like 2019 and her book, Breakup Boot Camp, was about to come out and she was doing her retreats and she shared her whole story. And it's just, it's such a good episode right now. Like I was like, listening back today and was like, we were like, just so enthralled by her, like crying and just blown away.

• 1:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I still remember the first email I got from Amy. We got, and then she called and we talked and I was like, Ash, you're gonna love her so much.

• 1:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:22Rayna Greenberg?

  It's probably one of the episodes that people reference the most even to this day when they're like, I love this Girls Gotta Eat episode. And I just, I think everybody can relate to the extreme pain of a breakup and the way she speaks of it, writes about it, has researched it, does retreats, all the things. I mean, she is just incredible and has been on the show many times since, but this episode was.

• 1:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, she's been on twice since, but this was the first time we recorded with her in person and this will be audio only today. This was prior to our, our video era. So you guys could just listen to it and it's just, she, she really walks through like the way it feels in your body to go through heartbreak and how to get it out of your body and all these actionable steps to take to get through tremendous pain after a breakup.

• 2:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  And her life is a little different now, but she is in a wonderful relationship with someone that we love.

• 2:17Rayna Greenberg?

  We love him.

• 2:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, like I think in the episode, she says she is in a good relationship and it's healthy and it's stable. But like, you know, five years later, she's in a relationship with someone who we're like obsessed with. So just know that you guys just know that. And um, her book is out. It's been out, obviously, Breakup Boot Camp. And her next retreat is November 13th to 16th. And you can find this all on like, her website and her Instagram. And she'll plug that at the end of the interview, like we always have done. So uh, we hope you guys enjoy it.

• 2:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, enjoy guys and enjoy your Labor Day.

• 2:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Here we go. So without further ado, we have somebody very special with us in the house studio with us and Dewey. She reached out to us. I got on the phone with her. I like couldn't stop listening to her talk. She is a relationship columnist for the last over a decade for publications like The Huffington Post. She is the chief heart hacker of her own company that she started called The Breakup Boot Camp, which we will tell you guys about. She also has the best hair of anybody who's ever sat on this couch. Sorry, Ashley. Yikes. It's a flex. Uh, so welcome. Didn't see that coming. I was like, how is she gonna take this? Welcome to the studio, Amy Chan.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Hi, thanks for having me.

• 3:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thanks for being here. We are so excited. I'll take the compliment on the hair. Your hair is incredible. But I do want you to talk a little about what you do because um, speaking with you, you're very like clinical about the way that you speak about love and relationships. You've you've researched this. I mean, I thought you were a psychiatrist when I was talking to you on the phone, and you're not. So how did you like amass this type of, how did you become you? Talk about who you are.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. So ever since I was a little girl, I was able to master everything. But the one thing that I couldn't figure out was love. And so I set out to do what every, you know, high achieving Asian does, which is I'm gonna study the shit out of this.

• 4:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  And so I did. I became a relationship columnist at the age of 25. And I just dived into the science and psychology of relationships because heartache after heartache, I couldn't figure it out.

• 4:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  So you started writing about dating and relationships. And then your story is really, should we talk about her story first? I, yeah, I'm dying to hear it. Again, I think Rena, and I just gave me the briefing. And I mean, I'd heard, I'd Heard of you before we talked to you, but I don't know the full story. I obviously haven't heard it from you. So I am dying to hear your heartbreak story, Amy.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the catalyst for how you like built this incredible business.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Totally. So I always had the mentality of date, date to marry. I mean, I would think I was dating to marry till, from the age of like 12. And then I finally thought my dreams were coming true. I fell madly in love with a guy living in Vancouver and we had our life set. We were gonna eventually have children together. He was a business guy. We even talked about the fact that when we had kids, I would just write as a hobby. So everything was set out for me and this plan and this dream that I had vied for since I was a little girl was finally coming true.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  And then one day that reality of mine came crashing down and through infidelity, our relationship broke apart. And when the relationship fell apart, I completely fell apart. I was so young minded at the time that I put pretty much all of my identity in him and in us. And when I didn't have that, I didn't know who I was. And not only was I mourning the loss of our relationship, I was mourning the loss of the future and this plan that I held on to for dear life. And it was bad. I fell into depression. I had panic attacks. I had thoughts of suicide and I thought I was going absolutely crazy. Yeah.

• 5:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel really choked. I'm just getting like really emotional because I just feel like your story is so many people's story. Okay. Keep going. Ashley and I are fully crying.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  I know. I know. I see the tears. And you know.

• 6:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm also just thinking of our listeners, like there's girls listening to this in their car that are like, oh my God, that's my story.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just had a panic attack last night. You know what I mean?

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Totally. And it's.

• 6:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  And how old were you at this time?

• 6:19Speaker 00

  I was 29 when it happened.

• 6:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which is like, right. You're like, oh, I'm about to be 30. Like I'm gonna marry this guy and then we're gonna have a family and then of course. And conversely, like I can't believe I have to start over at this age. Right. Girls are like, I'm so old. Start over. You're not, by the way, but like, yeah, well, my fiance left me at 28. That was my thought. Anyways,

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and yeah, this idea that I wasted my time, my prime on you, how unjust, unfair the universe was. I remember like in a fit of another panic attack, crying and asking God or universe, whoever was out there and like, how unfair this is. Like I volunteer, I donate to charity. Why is this happening to me? And what I thought was the worst thing that ever happened to me, I can now look back in retrospect and that was the best thing that has ever happened to me. It took me quite a while to get back on my feet and I tried everything, therapy, yoga retreats, meditation, psychics.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  And it wasn't until about a year and a half later where kind of everything clicked and I shifted and reframed my relationship with what had happened and I went from being a victim to being empowered. I'd love to tell you guys the story of how that happened.

• 7:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Girl, the floor is yours. This is my favorite episode.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  I was like, Ashley, just got off the phone with this girl. It's gonna be our best episode. So, I mean, so yeah, after a period of time, the, the immediate intense emotions started to subside. If you look at research, this usually takes around the eight week mark is when those crazy physical emotions start to subside.

• 7:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like you feel in your body.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 8:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like I'm, I personally, when I'm in that place, I couldn't even like work out because my heart would start racing. I'd be like, I'm gonna have panic attack on a spin bike. Like this is bad. I could only do yoga, but like, I, like, I always talk of it as like, what's feeling literally in your body? When people are like heartbreak, it feels like a hole in your heart.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you're flooded with cortisol and stress hormones and adrenaline. And so your, your, your body is out of whack. So basically if they did an F M R I study on your scan on your brain, they would see that the same part of your brain is activated as a drug user feeding for the next fix. You're physically in withdrawal. And so it's super important for people to understand what's happening during this time because you're actually not going crazy. Your body is used to getting your doses of dopamine and oxytocin from this person, from the text messages, from the hugs, from the makeup sex. And then you don't get it anymore and your body's in shock and it's like, what the fuck's going on? Go and get it. Go scroll their Instagram. Look at your text messages.

• 8:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Show up at their house.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Show up at their house.

• 9:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Maybe burn it down. Show up at their house with the text messages and the Instagram.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Keep telling the story over and over again. All these things is your way, is your body's way of trying to hang on and get that sort of a dose. And so eventually, if you, if you stop contact, if you stop scrolling their feed, if you start showing up at their house, the neural pathways start to prune away. And that's when you start to kind of be able to get back into your body. And so that's what happened to me, but I was still one angry bitch. I was really horrible to date. I was super close for business. And this went on for about a year and a half where even though I was over the initial angst and anger, I was very resentful. And one day, a year and a half later, I was telling a friend of mine who I hadn't seen for a long time.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  And I was telling the story of the betrayal, how awful and how unjust everything was. And he just stopped me and he's like, so Amy, does this story serve you? And I'm like, uh, no. He's like, okay, can you tell me some other times when he was loving and he was trustworthy? And tell me some examples. And so I did, I was like, oh, well, there was this time and there was this time I started smiling and laughing. And it was right then I realized that in my tunnel vision of making him the villain, all I could see was the darkness and the anger and the pain, because that's all I was looking for. And we, human beings are very great at finding evidence to prove whatever it is that you want to find.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  And so I realized that I wasn't able to change the events of my history, but I could choose to change the story I was going to attach to those events. And I went home that day and I wrote him a letter of accountability of my part, of the facts of what happened, not my interpretation of what I learned, of what I was letting go, what I forgave and what I was grateful for. Because, because of that breakup, it enabled me to stop and say, whose dream was I trying to create? Was this just my parents' dream of getting married by this age to the entrepreneur? Or was it my own? And I was like, Wow, I have a blank canvas. How am I gonna paint this? And it ended up moving out of my hometown.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  I now fast forward have my own company helping people with breakups. So it's amazing what can happen when your original plan falls out of place, because sometimes the breakup is the shakeup you need to redirect your life.

• 11:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, that's what I mean, I moved here, we started this podcast. I have my breakup to thank for my entire career, my life. Rena, I mean, she ended an engagement. What would have happened if she just like married this dude?

• 11:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And the first day we met, actually, we talked about this on last week's episode or two weeks ago. I'm about the date that we met and like, we had dinner and then we went inside. We were with like a couple of other women and we just stayed up all night long talking about relationships. It's like what connected us was like these painful situations, but like it grew a whole business for us.

• 11:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  But then here we are, these women that were thriving in our careers and sitting on the beach in Aruba, talking about this stuff, you know, like something went right here for us to be here and doing this. I feel like I have so many questions about just your story. So, okay, the two, the two months of this like body pain and all this stuff, people are asking like, well, I can't stop, like I'm a crazy person. Like, are you of the mindset of, okay, just deal, just go through it. Time will fix your crazy. Or do you feel like there are tools and tips for women to stop the crazy behavior? Or do you think you, you're just gonna have to go through this, this?

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, great question. So there's a few levels to this answer. Time doesn't heal the wounds that were buried beneath the original trauma. Right? So when I look back at my breakup and how I fell apart into a million pieces, it wasn't because of that person. It was a Band-Aid that got ripped off of all of the wounds I never dealt with since childhood and the compound trauma. And so suddenly I had to deal with it and I pointed the finger that, oh, it's all your fault. It's your fault that I don't feel enough. It's your fault that I put my identity in us and it fell apart. It's your fault that my house completely crumbled down because you didn't love me enough or you didn't behave the way I wanted you to. And that's what we deal with at Breakup Bootcamp.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  The women who come think they're coming to heal from their ex. They're not. It's recycled pain. We recreate the emotional experiences of how we were wounded as children. And so if we don't figure out what is a subconscious foundation of the wounds, the patterns and the belief systems, we will create the same emotional experience, just with different people. And so I think at a time of a breakup, there's a few things. When you're feeling the feels of the crazy, there's a tool that can help you with this and it gets better through time. And what you need to do first is you have an overactivated nervous system. So if you think about, say, a gazelle in the wild, when they see something that could be possibly dangerous, they freeze.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  And what's happening is they're being flooded with stress hormones. What they'll do is they'll eventually start shaking and then they'll just completely gallivant off as nothing happened. Human beings are wired the same way. When we feel a threat and separation is a threat, that shitty Instagram pic that they've taken with some, you know, other person is a threat. We feel this surge of angst in us, which is like your survival is at stake. You're flooded with cortisol and adrenaline. What you need to do is you need to let that get out of your body.

• 14:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  So the very first thing you want to do is do a state change. The quickest way to do this is excuse yourself to the bathroom and just shake. Shake, shake, shake for a couple of minutes and what that's going to do is it's going to help your body rid the excess stress hormones. After that is when you can do something to start calming down. And very simply, the next thing to do is to take deep breaths. What I recommend is a three, five, seven breath. You breathe in for three, you hold for five, you breathe out for seven. If it's hard for you to remember that, just breathe out longer than it is than you breathe in. What that does, it starts to calm your nervous system down. So it's a two-part hack, which is really helpful because when you're feeling a surge of anxiety,

• 15:20Speaker 00

  it's pretty hard to just meditate your way out of it. You need to actually change your state.

• 15:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you want to act on it. You want to like, you want to like send the text or do the, or get in the car or do the crazy. Thing. So I think where people go wrong, I've been there is just going, just doing it. Like no deep breaths, no shake, no get it out of your body.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because that's what Kelly would say to me. She's like, actually, you've got to get this out of your body for, you know, long term, it's like yoga and things like that. But just like, I think people are like, I can't, I'm gonna do it.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Like you don't need so many girls who are like, I'm just gonna send a text. I don't even care what the response is. I just need to get it out.

• 15:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because you're on drugs. You're like on, like, yeah, you're in like crazy mode.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  So many friends of mine have like written that email and sent it and they're like, I don't even care what it, what the response is. I just needed to get it out in the world.

• 16:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then when you calm down, the next day you're like, oh, fuck.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  You feel worse. You were talking about actual steps you can take.

• 16:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Is there something else after your three, five, seven breaths?

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Totally. So another thing, once you are back to a more rational state of mind, hopefully this change in your state and then deep breathing will help you is to remember this, 90 seconds. 90 seconds is the amount of time that it takes for an emotion to actually move through your body. Anything extra is the stories that you're attaching to that emotion. 90 seconds. So what happens is when you feel that first emotion, whether that's anger or anxiety or the panic, we then go, oh my gosh, why is there that person in the Instagram? Oh my gosh, what does this mean?

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, they're living best life and I'm not. And then it keeps building and building and that thing turns into a huge mountain. And so what you need to do is understand that the emotional wave will pass. You just have to let it. And most of us are not trained to do so. We are trained to act on whatever that we're feeling, right? And so part of learning this whole process of emotional regulation, which is going to be so helpful, whether it's about relationships or just life in general, is understanding the art of the pause. And in the beginning, it is very hard, but the more you practice, the better you get. And my suggestion is before you send that text, that email, that anything,

• 17:34Speaker 00

  hold on to it. You can do free form writing and write it all out to get it out of your system and make a pact to yourself to not. Not send any communication when you are in low vibe.

• 17:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I love that you said this and something happened to me recently that I haven't talked about on the podcast because we were so in it, but I went through this breakup with this guy. Ashley and I talked about on this great episode because you're not the one. And I had emailed him to basically end things and he didn't write me back for four weeks. And he wrote me back the morning we recorded the episode. And so I never talked about, you know, how I felt and he, I get this email and immediately I opened it up and it's four pages. And like my immediate response was, because the whole thing was about how he felt bad. And I started ferociously writing and I'm like explaining my thoughts and my opinions and everything I said. It was like a four page email back to it. And then I was like, okay, let me wait an hour to see how I feel. And in my mind, I was like, well, I'm not going to change how I feel. This is just how I feel. I let 12 hours go by and then I was fucking pissed.

• 18:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Then I was like, I cannot believe you waited four weeks to write me back. Take your feelings and shove them up your ass. I was so mad. So then I wrote that email and I was like, I'm not going to change my mind. Like this is exactly how I'm going to feel about this forever. But I didn't send the email. And then the next morning, I swear to God, 24 hours went by because I was like, let me just wait. 24 hours went by, I woke up the next morning and I was like, I don't care about this. Like I'm not mad at this person anymore. I don't care about this person anymore. Like let's just turn the page and be done with it. And I ended up just writing back, water under the bridge, enjoy your, he was on a trip, water under the bridge, enjoy your trip. And like, I'm so glad that I waited because like all those thoughts and feelings I went through were not how I was going to end up feeling.

• 19:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I haven't thought about this person since, like I just genuinely don't care. So I'm, I love what you said about waiting because how I felt in the moment was not how I long-term feel. If that makes sense.

• 19:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, and I'm, I've tried to explain this not so eloquently on the podcast, so I'm so glad you're here. I think people may be hearing this for the first time, which I had to learn for, for myself a few years back of like, it is what you're feeling at that moment is not your real, what is it? You're thinking all the wrong, a different part of your brain even, like the frontal lobe or something when these things are happening. So it's actually not how you're going to feel in, I don't know, 90 seconds to 24 hours, I guess.

• 19:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, remembering that your feelings aren't facts.

• 19:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  Right? It's so simple, but like, oh shit, it's true. And one of the exercises we do at Renew is we have the women tell their stories. And I teach them how to tell their stories without re-traumatizing themselves. And they start off with their original story. And their story is filled with interpretations and assumptions and the how dare you? You took four weeks, you must have been an asshole. Like all those things, we fill in the blanks. And then we have them actually simplify the story with just the facts. And then you take out all those assumptions and the interpretations. And the emotional charge gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So it's just, yeah, another thing to remind yourself to take the pause, to understand our feelings aren't facts.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  You're not wrong for feeling them, but it doesn't mean that that is a fact of the situation.

• 20:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. And are those your main steps?

• 20:41Speaker 00

  I think, yeah, there's that. And I think the best thing to after, there's no ifs, ands or buts about it. Avoid contact if you can. Basically, you have neural pathways that have been wired together for months, decades, years. And you need time for your neural pathways to start to prune away to create new ones. So you need a new reality without your partner in it. And if you're constantly going back to this person having makeup sex or even rehashing old arguments, you're not allowing those neural pathways to prune away. And so as much as you can, and sometimes you can't because you have children or shared pets or whatnot, what I would suggest then is just try to keep your interactions

• 21:22Speaker 00

  limited to whatever the logistics are, but don't add emotional charge to it. When you have great news, don't go to them. When you have bad news, don't go to them.

• 21:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep. We did, I mean, a lot of it's stuff we've talked about. You, you always share these memes with them. Don't do it. Send it to your friend. You always watch the show together? Stop watching it or find someone else to watch it with. I think people get wrapped up in like, we had these things or these habits and traditions. How do I stop doing them? You just do. You're gonna have, you're gonna have to. You're broken up.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I think people obviously have, this will obviously come up when you have a lot to drink. You know, and you're like, what's the, what's the big deal? I'll just send the text. And I've actually, I'm so proud of me. I'm so proud of drunk me in the last like six months. Because when I sent That guy that email and I didn't hear back for weeks. Ashley and I went on a vacation and then I went on another vacation with my family and I was like, I'm gonna be drinking continuously. I'm not hearing back and I'm furious. And I had to like look myself in the mirror and be like, do not communicate with this person while you are drinking. Like you will not be happy with it when you wake up. And like I feel like when I'm drunk now, I'm like, I remember having that talk with sober me almost and just being like, you will not be happy when you wake up that you did this.

• 22:29Rayna Greenberg?

  And when you're drunk, like you think like, what's the big deal? But like, I don't know. I it's a weird exercise, but I just looked in the mirror and I was like, don't do this. And you're gonna wake up and not appreciate this.

• 22:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Also, guys, move away. Move to New York. That's what I did. Um, I have just one quick question for you that might be, I don't know if it's too personal. The infidelity, was this a one-off thing or an affair?

• 22:50Speaker 00

  It was a one-off thing.

• 22:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  With someone I knew.

• 22:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which, okay, well, that's brutal. But I think for me, this is a different topic, but I just, I think if it was a long-term affair and you came home and lied to me every single day for however long, I don't know if I'd ever be able to get past the anger. I don't know. I mean, there's, that's probably a different type of thing. You know, like, I think you were able to reflect and be like, just because he did this thing, he's not a terrible person. I mean, is that something that you tell yourself now?

• 23:15Speaker 00

  We're actually really good friends now.

• 23:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, okay.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  And he jokes he should have shares in my company.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  He's probably listening to this right now. Shout out. Yeah, I have a very different view on infidelity now.

• 23:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Back then, it was the worst thing you could ever do and you're horrible and the relationship is over. I now have witnessed couples who have become stronger, working through the infidelity because infidelity brought up issues that were in the relationship that weren't discussed. Of course, I don't condone infidelity. I think if you have a commitment to a type of partnership and monogamy, I believe in honoring that. If I was to be cheated on in my current relationship, I don't think I would say it's completely over. But it would be, it would totally depend.

• 24:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you think you guys would be friends today if he had had like a full-blown like month affair, other woman, side piece, coming home and like looking you in the face and being dishonest every day?

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 24:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  You think? You could, okay.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  It wasn't the magnitude of what happened, which is why I have a different way of seeing my.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  My relationship with my ex, I have come to a place of complete gratitude because if that didn't happen, the entire thing, I would not be where I am today. And so I just have gratitude when I think about what had happened between us, which might be, might be crazy.

• 24:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I mean, no, I think about that all the time. It's, it's like this wouldn't, we wouldn't have this if it wasn't for our exes.

• 24:52Rayna Greenberg?

  My ex, he sleeps at night wonderfully, thinking that, well, I saw, I saw him recently and he was like, I just, I know I did you a favor by leaving you. And I just, I'm like, well, if that helps you sleep at night, buddy, whatever. But yeah, I love that. And I think it's also like an interesting message, which is like, you can get through trauma and if you want, still have the person be a part of your life. It's not for everybody.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 25:14Rayna Greenberg?

  But you can heal and forgive somebody for something that they've done to you.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:19Rayna Greenberg?

  And I like that message a lot. And so I love what you were saying about short term, in the short term, here's eight weeks, here's what you can do to feel better. But I also would love to talk about like, long term, like, let's redefine your life, let's figure out how to move on with yourself or with another partner, if you want to talk about that a little bit.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. The quicker you can reframe your past relationship from a place of victimization to a place of empowerment is the quicker you're going to get rid of the suffering and move on to create a healthier life. And so the people come to breakup bootcamp, we encourage them to actually become like scientists. And our exes reveal really important information on what's happening on a subconscious level. As I mentioned before, the emotional experience is going to keep repeating until you figure out what is that subconscious belief that's causing you to create these same scenarios. In my case, I grew up in a household where

• 26:20Speaker 00

  there was chaos all the time. My father was never around. He was a busy entrepreneur. I was trying to always earn his love and affection. If I got good grades, sometimes I would get that. And it was very inconsistent. And so that became what I was familiar with. That was my model of love. And so it's not any coincidence that every single person that I felt attracted to and chemistry with were people who were wounding me in the exact same way. And so

• 26:50Speaker 00

  I really encourage anyone who's going through a breakup, or if you just are not happy with your relationship outcomes, is to just assess what is the pattern? What is the emotional experience that keeps repeating? Are you resentful? Are you over giving? Are you playing the hero and trying to save someone? Are you trying to change someone? Because chances are, there's a belief system that's causing that behavior and that's causing that outcome to repeat.

• 27:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Shocked by everything you said.

• 27:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  How do you do this? I mean, obviously breakup bootcamp and I was, I think in therapy, right?

• 27:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so of course, there's so many different healing modalities. So from therapy to hypnotherapy, to psychedelics, and you'll need to figure out what is the most helpful for you.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  But I think just to start, before you get into all the professional services, is really just taking stock of your relationship history.

• 27:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, like what did you do?

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, so if your relationship history hasn't been very healthy, it's possible that your chemistry compass is broken. So that your chemistry compass is something I've coined that really points you into the direction of who you are drawn to. And so if you grew up with an unhealthy model of what love feels like, you are going to likely, as an adult, keep going for people who mirror that same type of model of love as a child. So for example, if it's chaotic when you are young and you equated chaos with love, then it's likely you're going to get into relationships that are very chaotic.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Or if you're in something healthy, you might self sabotage. Or you'll think healthy mates are very boring. And so I knew that my chemistry compass was broken. And the way that this happened was just person after person, I was having the same experience over and over again. And I was really frustrated. And one day, I had a guy friend of mine reach out to me on Facebook chat and said, "Hey, Amy, I know we've been friends for a bit and, you know, it seems..." Like we have very common values and a shared life vision of what we want in the future. And would you be open to exploring something on a more romantic sense? And I remember I was in the office and I had a physical reaction. I was like, oh my God.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  And my, my team was like, oh my God, are you okay?

• 29:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Was this a negative or I can't tell if it's negative or positive. It was repulsed, repulsed. I could feel that. I could feel the repulsion.

• 29:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I could feel it. He really spoke like that? This isn't your current boyfriend, right? No, it's not. Oh my God. She's like, and that's my boyfriend. I was like, I'm not gonna insult this dude if he's your boyfriend. Who, I mean, who talks like that?

• 29:39Speaker 00

  I know. And you know what? He, he's an amazing guy.

• 29:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't, I know guys that talk like that. Like they're, they're nice guys, you know? We're, we're used to guys, not all, but being assholes. So he was like, I'm gonna be nice and respectful and share the way I feel about this. And we're like, oh my God. Why are you so obsessed with me?

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Right. So here's a guy who's intentionally wanting to date me, super respectful, articulate, and I feel disgust. That's not normal. It's a very abnormal reaction. To the point where my team members were like, are you okay? They thought something wrong. Someone died. And I'm like, if I'm reacting to this, to this good looking, successful, nice guy, there's something really wrong here. And so I did what every relationship columnist does, and I did an experiment on myself. And I set out to rewire my chemistry compass. So what I did was I said, okay, I am going to be open to going out on dates with any guy

• 30:45Speaker 00

  that intentionally wants to date me, is healthy, and like of the nice kind. And that's what I did. I went on probably, I met seven different guys and I went on multiple dates.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  And it wasn't working. And seven months went by. I was like, this experiment sucks. Like it's not working.

• 31:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Really?

• 31:09Speaker 00

  And then one day-

• 31:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  These guys are boring.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  I'm like, this is so boring. There's no chemistry growing. Fuck. One day I was having dinner with this guy and it, early on in the beginning, I had communicated like, "Look, I'm not attracted to you, but like, I'm open to hanging out as homies if you want to keep hanging." And he's like, "No pressure. Like, you're an awesome human. I just want you in my life." So I was like, "Okay, no pressure."

• 31:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so funny. I just, "Hey, I'm not attracted to you, but if you want to hang as homies." He's like, "God damn it." That's like the biggest boner killer I've ever-

• 31:44Speaker 00

  I know.

• 31:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  But he was like, "I'll wear her down. I'm gonna stick around and wear her down."

• 31:47Speaker 00

  If this is your boyfriend, of course, it's probably-

• 31:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I will die.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  It is, isn't it?

• 31:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we're married.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then so, basically, we would just hang out as friends. And it was about eight months after this initial conversation, we were having dinner. And it was probably the, yeah, seventh time I hung out with him. We were having dinner and I remember this distinct moment when I looked across the table and I was like-

• 32:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  "I'm never gonna suck your dick." Raina, I think it's gonna be the exact opposite. I am on the edge of my seat. Amy, continue. Raina, god damn it.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  So I looked across the table and I just remember, I was like, "You look hot."

• 32:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my god. I knew it. Nailed it.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  And I'm like, "What the fuck?" And I felt attracted to him. And what I realized was that through time, I started to develop feelings for this person, not because of all the superficial stuff or the intensity and the high, high, low, lows that I was used to, it was because of his character and his soul and how he consistently showed up. And he was a good guy. And I didn't feel any pressure when I was with him because he was totally accepting that we were friends. And we dated for a bit and we didn't end up getting into a relationship and we're still friends to this day. But that was the beginning of me being able to rewire my chemistry. Now, would that have happened if those seven guys before him didn't?

• 33:10Speaker 00

  No, because what was happening is I started to become more familiar with what healthy felt like. Human beings like what is familiar. And so I wasn't gonna go from super toxic dysfunctional attraction towards the bad boy, towards a person who was always unavailable, to super healthy. It's just not gonna happen that way. Degree by degree, my chemistry compass started to shift. And since then, the people I've been dating have been super healthy. And I'm now in a really healthy relationship with an awesome human.

• 33:43Rayna Greenberg?

  So we actually were talking about this in the car this morning, Ashlyn and I, on the way to this event, about like, can you love somebody so passionately and fight with somebody so passionately? And have a super, I guess, quote unquote, unhealthy relationship? And then you meet the next person and you feel like it's boring because it's quote unquote, healthy. Like, we're not fighting. There isn't that. I don't know. Like, do you think people, I guess my question is, do you feel like people confuse drama and fighting with passion and love? And so when they find a relationship that's very even keeled, they think it's boring?

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Totally. And I think this comes back to chemistry compass where, and there's other terms for it. There's limerence, there's love addiction. We all have a degree of love addiction when we're in the throes of, you know, the beginning parts of love, which is obsession over the person, the feeling of high dopamine rushes. When the affection is returned, you feel amazing. And when it's not, you feel horrible. Some degree of this is normal. However, if you are on the other side of the spectrum and you're always chasing the high, or you're always obsessive over someone and you're creating make believe by putting fantasy in between,

• 34:54Speaker 00

  because you're actually not in relationship, you're not creating intimacy if you're in relationship with fantasy. This is unhealthy and this is dysfunctional. And it's hard because our love songs, our Disney movies, all of this stuff is telling you that the Romeo and Juliet story is what love is. High, low, intense, do you like me, do you not love me? We're torn because our families can't stand each other. There's conflict. That is not what love is. And so if you equate an activated nervous system with love, and you don't create awareness that that is dysfunctional, you're going to continuously have the same loop over and over again.

• 35:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And I like, you used the word homeostasis earlier, which I just, I love that of like, did you, was your normal growing up? Chaos and trauma and dysfunction. And I mean, I was in a relationship with somebody that that was there.

• 35:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Past and it wasn't with me and I went to therapy and I feel like she was she was trying to get out of me like, do you subconsciously like the highs and the lows? And I was like, I do not. I hate this. Like, I did not grow up fighting with people. I have never yelled like this in my life. Like, I come from stability. I want stability. I miss the beginning when we dated and we were normal and not fighting, you know? And I just, I think a lot of people, that's not the case. They're like, yeah, this is my normal. And this is my, this is what I grew up feeling comfortable in. And I mean, that's a whole nother topic of how you rewire that, right? I mean, I guess that's what you just explained that you did. But I think some

• 36:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  people have it worse, you know? And I mean, how do they find a quote unquote, "normal, stable" relationship? Which is kind of just the rewiring.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  I think, you know, and I think a good tip for people that you can just even start reflecting on now is if you have a history of unhealthy relationships, take stock of what does healthy look like? Because if you don't know how it feels like, the very first step is to understand what is healthy on a cerebral level. So eventually, you can create the experience and feel it on an embodied level. And so what I mean is by this, look at the past relationships that didn't work out and start to write down a list of what is unhealthy. Unhealthy is obsessive. Unhealthy is chaotic. Unhealthy is angst ridden. Unhealthy is wondering, do they like me? Do they not like

• 37:21Speaker 00

  me? All these things are characteristics of unhealthy. And then write a list of what does healthy look like? You might not have a romantic example, but I'm sure you can find example from friends or family and start writing down how that is because healthy love is is the same whether it's you're getting it from friends or family. It's, you know, like, the less and the romance of it is just one form of the same thing, which is love. And healthy love is supportive. Healthy love is consistent. Healthy love is peaceful. It's calm. It's giving and receiving. It's generous.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  Doesn't give you this kind of crazy, you know, spiral.

• 38:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think that there are just people, though, that are incapable of that type of state? So like, you know, you can look for all these things like unhealthy love versus unhealthy, but like, there's always going to be men that just inherently, they don't want to be monogamous. They enjoy having a girlfriend and they enjoy cheating on their girlfriend. Like, there are people that are just, do you think there are people that can just never give you that?

• 38:23Speaker 00

  I think that there's going to be people that I think you'll never be able to change someone else. And I think that the person who wants to not ever be monogamous and keep playing, like, there's nothing wrong with that either, right? Like, it might not be my right, but it's also not wrong. And so hopefully, they can play with people who share the same relationship model. So, yeah, I think it's the most important thing is identifying what is unhealthy so that before you take a hundred steps with that person who's showing the red flags of not being monogamous when you want monogamy, of being inconsistent, and you feel the chemistry,

• 39:08Speaker 00

  because you're going to still feel the chemistry. It's not like suddenly you'll stop feeling it. I still feel chemistry with unavailable hot DJs, which was my thing in all of my twenties. But what's different now is with awareness, I choose to not go down a black hole with that person.

• 39:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a choice.

• 39:26Rayna Greenberg?

  It starts with one date or like one experience. I love that you said that, like, don't go on the one, don't have the one experience.

• 39:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just don't do it. If you know the path, I mean, I don't think I'll ever, the guys that I've dated in the past that felt toxic and had these bad patterns, I feel like I can see them from a mile away now. Like, I'm not going to do, I'm not, that's not what I want. I want somebody that's done the work, you know? I'm not trying to save and fix somebody at this point in my life.

• 39:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I think unhealthy means something different for other people. And like, you and I talk about this, like, that feeling when you're at work and you can't listen in a meeting, when you're with your girlfriends and you can't focus or be present. Like, I think people are like, they mistake that for some kind of like drama and chemistry, but like, that's a terrible feeling. And if you're feeling that and if you're sitting through like a

• 40:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Work meeting, you can't check in because every second you're like, are they going to text me? What's going to go on next? You know, when is the other shoe going to drop? That's a terrible unhealthy thing, I think.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, and that's a combination of the partner selection and also with your own anxiety. Right? And so I'm not going to go into attachment theory much, but basically we are, we have an attachment system that's developed by the age of two years old. And if you're constantly preoccupied with thoughts of your relationship and you fear abandonment or rejection, it's characteristic of someone has an anxious attachment style. And so there are ways and therapy to actually become more secure. And you, I'm sure you guys are going to get into that in another project.

• 40:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. Sorry, guys, we're, we, it could be a whole episode on its own, which we do plan on doing, hopefully with the guy that wrote the book, but I mean, attachment theory, we've touched on a little bit. We talked about it with Carrie Bradshaw and Mr. Big, you know, this iconic relationship of why they did this dance for a decade. We hate that relationship, by the way, just so we're clear. But what she has the, what is it called? When you have the anxious, right? And then what's?

• 41:20Rayna Greenberg?

  He's an avoidant.

• 41:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. That's, yep, there it is.

• 41:23Rayna Greenberg?

  We did an episode called Fuck You, Carrie Bradshaw. It's one of our favorites. And we are going to do episodes about that, also toxic relationships. We're going to talk about all that stuff. I think it's really interesting. We all talked about this offline before we started, but like, there's so many women in like every city, but I was thinking like New York City, that are so successful in every other aspect of their lives. And they're like, why can't I make this work? This one thing that's really, because I can, I can do friendships, I can do exercise, I could do my job, but I can't do this one thing. And I'd love it if you like talked a little bit about that, because I think it's just like a deep, dark death hole that we go down.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I think I, that was me exactly. Like I was able to kill it in my career and my friend groups. And what happened was as a child, I developed a root belief system that I am not enough. And so I was always trying to earn the love and approval from my parents. And so this coping mechanism to Earn validation was great for getting good grades in school, for having multiple jobs, for being an entrepreneur, but not so much translating well into love. And so a lot of these coping mechanisms that successful people have work very well to get you successful in achieving. But again, it goes down to what is the root belief system?

• 42:41Speaker 00

  And so I think it's really important, whether you're a trailblazing CEO, or a stay at home mom, or an artist, or young or old, is to just examine, what is a possible belief systems that's causing these emotional experiences to repeat over and over again? And what are your coping mechanisms? Because it could be very tricky. You could say, oh, fuck, guys, I like living best life. I don't need a partner. I don't need anything. Is that really truly where you're at? And if that is amazing, or is that a coping mechanism? Because at some point you got so hurt and so disappointed that you're like, I can't even be bothered. So your heart is closed. And I know that was for me. I was like, oh, like, I'm just living the

• 43:26Speaker 00

  life and I'm like dating all these guys and life's amazing. My career's going off. But if I, and I even said to myself, like, I'm open for a relationship, but my heart was closed. I was so afraid that that same breaking down that happened seven years ago would happen again, that even though I said I was open minded to be in a relationship, I wasn't because I was constantly going on dates, trying to filter people out. Like, oh, no, not you. No, three dates in, I'm like, oh, notice that? Not you. And I thought, I'm like, no, I'm just so selective now. I'm so woke. But really, it was my way of guarding against creating true intimacy.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  And the, the, the time has changed was, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who got into a relationship and he, I was like, wow, like you really jumped into this relationship after being a bachelor for so long. What's going on? And he's like, I just decided I'm gonna jump in and love her with reckless abandon. And this friend

• 44:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sounds like a thing that men do.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  Well, they just decide.

• 44:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  They just turn the cab light on and she got in.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  What's different with this guy, though, is he's someone who's done so much self-work. He meditates every day. Like, he's just such a, he has such a strong foundation. And so even if this relationship didn't work out, his house wouldn't fall apart. He would still be standing. So he could love with reckless abandon.

• 44:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  And I looked at that with admiration. I said, I can do that, too. Because now with all the tools that I have, with having built my foundation where it's so strong and solid, that if I open up my heart and I get hurt or disappointed, I know I can get back up. And I can get back up pretty quickly. So I made the decision to open up my heart. And the first guy I did this with, I got hurt. And I remember this quote that I say to the woman at Breakup Bootcamp. Our greatest lesson in this lifetime is to practice opening our hearts even when it hurts, especially when it hurts. And I just remember, I was so fucking sad. And I was like, I'm gonna listen to that.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  I'm gonna open my heart, which means I'm gonna have compassion for him and compassion for myself. And I'm gonna get back up. And then I met the guy that I'm with now.

• 45:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can we hear about that?

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm sure people are curious. How long have you been together? How'd you meet?

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Just kind of the basics.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Totally. It's pretty new. But I had been single for five years before, before this wonderful human being. And I think what was really different was, I don't know if he was responding to my energy, I was responding to his. But we just both went in with a really open heart. And after our first date, he deleted his dating apps. I followed suit like a couple of weeks afterwards. And I could feel my old tendencies kind of creeping in. The tendencies to act a little alluv, or maybe I should just go on another date with this person just to hedge. And I don't put all my energy, all the shit that those books teach you, why men marry bitches, all that stuff. And I was like, why would I do that?

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Why would I punish this guy who is showing up, who's consistent, who's in his action and his words, showing me that he's interested in pursuing a relationship? I'm not going to do that. And because of that, it's been really healthy and supportive and secure. And our first date, it really developed throughout the entire eight hours we were together. When I first met him, I was like, oh my God, I want to rip your clothes off. I was like, oh, like, this is interesting and fun. And he's like, oh, do you want to grab a bite? I'm like, sure. We had dinner. I'm like, oh, this is fun. Okay, cool. You want to go to the next one? Sure, let's go. And that eight hour date ended up over, you know, midnight pizza and a steamy make out session.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  And I was like, oh, my God, like, I like this guy. And so what I really encourage people out there is be open minded.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  You know, healthy may not have this crazy intensity in the very beginning. Sometimes things take time to grow. Maybe it's in the course of one day or the course of one week, but just have an open mind that love can be sparked in different ways.

• 47:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  I agree. We say this all the time. This has been my history with multiple people that I've dated that I, at first I was like, no, absolutely not, for whatever reason, whether it was something that was on paper or something with looks, whatever. And they, I hate to say grew on me, but it, the chemistry developed not months later. I wouldn't wait that out, but not day one. And it just, I think all I knew with these past partners was I just want to see them again. Like, I just want to hang out with them. That's the only thing. I don't feel obligated. I just feel excited to see them again, for whatever reason. They made me laugh. They felt comfortable with me. None of the people that I had long term, successful relationships with were tear your clothes off minute one. So that's been my track record. And now we try to, we, you know, if you know, you know, if you're like, absolutely not, I

• 48:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  do not want to see that person again, then don't see them again. But I think that the litmus test for me is like, do I, am I excited to hang out again?

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Am I excited to go get that slice of pizza at midnight after? You know, I just think that's. Just as simple as that.

• 48:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I also think there's nothing wrong with saying like, there's two things in the world I want to partner and they're not going to do one of those things, then I'm going to walk away from this. I don't think it's, there's nothing wrong with being at a certain age and being like, you know what? I've been through enough relationships. I understand what is a serious deal breaker for me. And also walking away, but like, I love your limits test of just like, I'm excited to show back up again.

• 49:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Um, so I want to get into a little bit more of what you guys do at Breakup Bootcamp. And it sounds to me, and tell me if I'm, correct me if I'm wrong, but that after the initial pain and kind of reframing the relationship and what was facts and what was feelings. For you and for us, it is like, build this life that, build your foundation and your career and whatever it is outside of a partner. So your whole, for lack of a better word, when the person comes along, again, for lack of a better word, but that's what, what I think. You get over the heartbreak, you reframe the relationship and then it is, let me make my life great for me and outside of a partner.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. So a lot of the people who come to Renew Breakup Bootcamp, um, they have an anxious attachment style. So they have put a lot of their identity into the validation from their partner.

• 50:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Find my identity. That's, you nailed it. That's what I was trying to get to with all those bumble, I'm like a bumbling idiot. You're like, find your identity, whatever it may be.

• 50:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Can you talk about what breakup? I feel like we've been talking about what is breakup?

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh. Okay.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  So Renew Breakup Bootcamp, we take a scientific and spiritual approach to healing and rewiring the heart. I bring in a team of 14 experts ranging from psychologists, hypnotists, energy healers. I even bring in a dominatrix with a PhD from Berkeley who specializes in the psychology of power dynamics.

• 50:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  We want to get.

• 50:32Rayna Greenberg?

  We're going to have them on the podcast.

• 50:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  And can I just say, can I just say what I'm picturing where, and you tell me if I'm wrong. What is the Couples Retreat? Have you seen that movie? Like, why am I picturing you guys all like?

• 50:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I'm picturing like that episode of Girls, she goes into the woods with her mom.

• 50:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. We're picturing two different things. I'm picturing Couples Retreat and everybody's at this island and like Paul Rudd is teaching you how to surf.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  It's fun, but it's definitely more scientific. And it's only women, so.

• 51:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, as it should be, yeah.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:04Rayna Greenberg?

  And do you do them at different locations or is it the same location all the time? It's like a spa retreat, right?

• 51:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it's a private estate in upstate New York in Hudson, and I'm going to be expanding into California.

• 51:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yay, congrats.

• 51:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh yeah, that's a totally west coast thing.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  They'll eat it up.

• 51:18Rayna Greenberg?

  And how many, how many have you done at this?

• 51:20Speaker 00

  So I have done 11 retreats now.

• 51:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  And it's pretty intense. It's four days, 8:30 to 12 o'clock midnight. You're in programming hour after hour. And we designed it this way to really overstimulate you because we're trying to really create a shakeup of the decades of patterns that people have, so that we can actually create an opening for new seeds to implant in.

• 51:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, I don't even want to ask, when's your next one? All these girls are going to sign up like right immediately.

• 51:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, you should do a couple more. Just add, how did you find this? So you're like, okay, I'm going to do this retreat. Like, how do I find 14 people to speak? Like, how'd you do that? I'm so curious.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it started off with me just realizing there's a need because when I went through my breakup, I went to yoga retreats, which were great, but by the second I got back into my apartment, I was still dealing with the same thing.

• 52:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  And there was nothing that was targeted to the type of pain that I was going through and the type of healing that I needed. And so I decided that I wanted to create a safe space in nature where everyone's sleeping under one roof, where there's a nostalgia of being at home when you were young, and you have the best of the best experts teaching you about what's going on in the mind, the body, the soul. So we even have onsite chef and nutritionist who cooks all of our meals because everything is interconnected.

• 52:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  For sure. Stay hydrated, ladies, stay hydrated. Through those breakups.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  And hydrated.

• 52:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Don't get dehydrated.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, and like the way.

• 52:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Is there drinking?

• 52:49Speaker 00

  There's no drinking. There's, it's completely alcohol and drug free. Got it. And digital free, actually.

• 52:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, so no phones, no alcohol, no.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, we actually even have a bucket for people to put their phones in, and they get rewarded with extra cake if they do it.

• 53:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Extra cake, okay. Well, there's gluten free cake. Of course.

• 53:05Speaker 00

  And how many people will be in one retreat?

• 53:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Twenty participants, fourteen facilitators.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  Is it all women?

• 53:10Rayna Greenberg?

  All women.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  All women. I love that you said that because I, nothing against yoga retreats, that's incredible. But yeah, you come back and you're like, well, all I know how to do is yoga, so I'm just gonna do yoga? Like, I love that, like, someone would come back from this retreat and they know how to think differently.

• 53:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I know that feeling. When you walk in the door and you hear that door click and you are alone.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:33Rayna Greenberg?

  It is the worst feeling because you're like, I did this thing and I should feel great. But the door just shut and I'm alone and I have no new tools to do like this at all.

• 53:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then there's a community that forms because the women get really, really close and they end up going on vacations together. I had one retreat where they like left and they got tattoos together. It's, and there's a WhatsApp group where they're constantly on it, like someone's going on a new date. They're like, okay, I'm trying a date with this like really nice guy and like she's on date three and it's going really well. We're so happy for her. To like today, like someone's going through anxiety because her ex is, you know, dating someone else and everyone kind of jumps in and helps. And then we have monthly meetups where we have an ongoing conversation about healthy relationships.

• 54:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Can we come talk?

• 54:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, can we speak there?

• 54:21Speaker 00

  I don't know if you have speakers, but I'm just gonna bite myself. Okay.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  We just, actually, I just want to hang out with you. That's what I'm trying to get at. I want to go back to finding your identity. And I think for some people, it can be starting a breakup bootcamp or starting a podcast. Like, you know, that's our story, but.

• 54:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, and I say it all the time, like when my ex left me, my fiance left me, all I ever, my job was fine. My life was fine. I never traveled anywhere. I had no hobbies, but my life was fine. He left me and before that, all I, my identity was to be a wife and a mother. Like, we were gonna get married. I was gonna have children. That was my life. I was gonna have like a normal nine to five. And he took that away from me and all of a sudden I was like, what do, I have nothing left. Like, who am I? What am I? What have I done? And so, yeah, like, how do you redefine that identity?

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, great question. I think we kind of all have a very similar story where this plan that we thought we were gonna have suddenly is like ripped out from underneath us. And in the beginning, it's super scary because you're like, well, that's the only plan I knew. But I think if you look back at other times when a plan didn't work out, whether you got laid off from a job and you got a better job, or a breakup led you to better relationships, we have a history of things not working out for something better, a better fit to come along. And so there's a little bit of trust in the process. I've now had so many times where something didn't go right because something better came along that I just now know like, oh, this didn't work out. I know something better is coming. I've just reframed my relationship

• 55:53Speaker 00

  with perceived disappointment. And second, I think, just what lesson were you supposed to learn? Most of the women who come to Renew, they say something very similar. And they say, I feel like the rug has been ripped out from underneath me. The question is, why was this person the foundation and the floor that you were standing on?

• 56:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Why that rug?

• 56:17Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so the bootcamp is really about getting to the bottom of that and those belief systems that is causing your foundation to be so shaky. And the goal is that we give them enough tools and start helping them reframe their subconscious beliefs so that when they leave, they actually can start practicing another way of being so that they can build a healthier relationship with themselves. And then as a bonus, then they can have healthier relationships with other people. But it's about building your own foundation so it's not going to be ripped out from underneath you because you got laid off or because this guy dumped you.

• 56:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And then is Renew breakup bootcamp, is that just the official name?

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, because we've said both things. Okay, just making sure. Do you help people try to figure that out? Or is that just, is it just, you kind of get them started on that?

• 57:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are you like, what do you want to do with your life?

• 57:05Speaker 00

  We also have life coaches there.

• 57:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  So there's a bunch of different private sessions that people can sign up for depending on what area they want to work on. So whether it's life coach, whether it's sexual education with a Tantra coach, whether it's learning about power with a dominatrix, whether it's a psychic medium, we have different private sessions for them.

• 57:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Wow, you can sign up for different things?

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  And everybody's different. I mean, we've, we've, we've beat this to death on all of our other episodes. For me, it was like, I moved to New York City and I knew, I knew I wanted to do more comedy and eventually start this podcast. Rena went to culinary school and she took up photography and she just started pursuing these things that, uh, you traveled a lot. You know, I think it's, I think it's different.

• 57:49Rayna Greenberg?

  All the things that I just like, wasn't doing. I was like, what do I have left? Absolutely. Like Ashley changed her whole life. She moved to New City and yeah, I don't need to repeat.

• 57:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  And solidifying, I guess, relationships too. And I moved closer to my family, but I've never been closer with my family. Like, they are just the most important thing in my life. And you've said, you know, when you were with your ex fiance, you lost touch with a lot of friends. And now, I mean, you have more girlfriends than anybody I know, aside from me. And I just think it's a part of it's that too, right?

• 58:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I let the relationship just be my whole life. And there's nothing, if I do that, if you want to do that, but like, I didn't foster friendships. I didn't make an effort to go out to dinner with other girlfriends when he was be, when he would be late at work or something. I just stayed at home. I, he didn't really have the money to travel. I didn't travel. He didn't have the money to like, take hobbies up and take classes. I just didn't take classes. And I just let that be okay. And like, I, that's fine. I was young and nobody told me to build a life I was proud of, you know?

• 58:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 58:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I was, nobody told me. Like, society just tells you to be a wife and a mother.

• 58:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And my mother never told me to be, my mother, my, my parents divorced when I was four years old. And I had very loving, supportive parents like Ashley, but they were not together in my home. So my mom said, like, God forbid a man leaves you, have a job you can fall back on. But that's all, that's what I grew up on. Have money, but not like, my mom wasn't like, make sure you go to Colombia and Peru, you know? Nobody told me that.

• 59:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 59:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Not college at Colombia.

• 59:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, what?

• 59:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 59:15Rayna Greenberg?

  You're not getting an Ivy League, no offense. Neither am I.

• 59:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  No.

• 59:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I barely got an Indiana.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  I think you raise a great point is, um, we like, so one of the exercises we do is looking at your pie. And it sounds like your pie was filled with relationship, relationship, relationship. So if you look at a pie and like, you divide that up into different slices of how much energy and time you're spending on relationship, on self-care, on play, on, um, education, on, on work. Often I know with the women at Renew, that pie is very skewed. The slice of the pie reserved for relationship is usually 60%, maybe even 70%. And that happens often slowly. You can start off with, I'm an independent empowered woman.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  And then you're like, well, he travels a lot for work, so I just have to leave my weekends open in case he's free. Decision after decision, limit after limit that you breach, like, I just won't see my friends this weekend because... And then you get to a point where suddenly it's just all relationship. And that pie went from you being independent woman who's doing SoulCycle and like doing like women's brunches to like 70% me and him.

• 1:00:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  And you're like, how the fuck did I get here? Why do I feel so disempowered? And so I think a great exercise for anyone listening is write down your pie. How does that look like right now? Is it balanced? Is it, you know, 70% relationship? Is it no relationship at all? And then write another pie, draw another pie. And what is a more balanced, healthy pie that you can strive for? And if you're in a relationship now, just making sure you look at it to like, remind yourself like, oh, you know what? I gotta add more self-care. I have to add more community. Or if you have a tendency to be codependent and wanting to merge with your partner, creating a pie and reminding yourself to not do that because you want to keep a balance.

• 1:01:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, and nobody wants a partner that they're the whole pie. I mean, maybe some controlling men, but I think for the most part, healthy partners don't want to be your whole pie. And I think that's, we think that people can pick up on that. And that's not just specific to women. I don't want someone that's super needy and I don't want to feel like I'm someone's whole world. And if, and if we break up, their life's going to be over. So I think it's for that too. It's just to attract the right type of partner.

• 1:01:36Rayna Greenberg?

  And I think if you back yourself into that corner, you're suddenly in a situation where like you have to accept everything that person's doing. Cause what do you have left?

• 1:01:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  What would you do without it? Yeah. We had another guest on, Lindsay Metzler from a podcast called We Met at Acme.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're on it.

• 1:01:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, you are?

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Oh, you are.

• 1:01:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  And she just said, when you think about if you broke up with this person, what would you have?

• 1:01:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's nothing. That ain't good.

• 1:02:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, mic drop.

• 1:02:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, exactly. Anything else that you feel like, we don't want you to give away your whole breakup bootcamp, we want people to go, but any other just unique tools about getting through breakups that you want to share, whether they're related to Renew or not?

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think one thing that could be very helpful for anyone who's trying to let something go is actually creating a ritual and a rite of passage around it. When you're going through a breakup, there's a part that's dying, right? There's this old relationship that's dying and you're making space for the new. And so honor that, have respect in the ritual of that. And what we do at Renew is on one of the nights, we have them write a letter and it's that same letter that I wrote to my ex many, many years ago. And in that letter, write down what happened, the facts of what happened, not your interpretation.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Then write down your own accountability in what happened, because it takes two people to be in a relationship and it's not all, he's an asshole, she's a bitch, it's not all that. And then take a look and see what is it that you learned? What did you learn about yourself? There's such great lessons that our relationships teach us, that pain teaches us. Find those lessons and then write down what you're letting go, write down what you are forgiving, and then write down what you're grateful for. Maybe that was the push you needed to leave your hometown, to start investing into your friendships again, to realize that too much of your identity was wrapped up in one other

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  person and feel the gratitude of that and thank that person for helping you learn all of that. And after that, take that letter and burn it. And if you need to repeat this process multiple times, I've had women at Renew who, after the bootcamp, have done it multiple times, go and do that, but it's very cathartic.

• 1:04:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Absolutely. Or do stand-up comedy, I can't recommend it enough.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Every fucked up, just get on, get on stage. Ashley said this thing, we have another, one of our best episodes was about how to get over a breakup like right now. And Ashley said like,

• 1:04:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Just make the pros and cons list, like physically sit down and like if the only thing in the cons column is he didn't love me the way that I deserved to be loved and I just like love that you said that it's still like resonates with me like 50 episodes ago. If that's the only thing in the cons column, like do that, write that list and like look at that all the time. And so, I mean, you say light it on fire. You don't have to light it on fire.

• 1:04:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. And I think the pros and the cons list is a little different. Yours is more like reflecting the relationship and the good that came out of it. But I think the pros and the cons list is before that. It's just like in the moment, get this on writing, this was not the person for me and this is how they made me feel and this is why they weren't the person for me. And I just have to say, I don't know a woman out here. I mean, most of my friends are really love their lives and they're successful and they're where they want to be. No one has ever like, I still wish I was with my ex or the breakup was is still the worst thing that ever happened to me. Like I, we have all been through terrible breakups, all me and all of my girlfriends. And I think everybody reflects on it as like, yeah, that was supposed to happen and I'm so glad it did. And I can imagine being with

• 1:05:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  that person and here's what it taught me and here's what it did for my life overall.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, you only don't get to that realization when you just keep trying to hang on to the relationship by hanging on to the pain and not accepting reality.

• 1:05:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And it's, it's easier said than done, but if that person doesn't want to be with you, you shouldn't want to be with them. You deserve somebody that wants to be with you. That's what a relationship is. Two people choosing to be in it.

• 1:05:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Well, this was amazing. Really, I'm thrilled with this episode.

• 1:05:51Speaker 00

  I know. Thank you so much.

• 1:05:54Rayna Greenberg?

  We, any other closing remarks? I want her to like tell people where they can find her.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  I do have one thing.

• 1:06:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  All right. So the last thing I want to leave you with is sometimes we

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Create a relationship in our heads. And so what this means is you might go on a few dates with someone and it starts off pretty level. They like you, I like them. And then you start daydreaming about the person and they said they wanted to retire in Bali one day and you wanted to retire in Bali one day and you're like, your soulmate bells start ringing. And so in between, you're, you're creating this fantasy, you're replaying the fantasy and it feels so good. And your body actually can't tell the difference between what's happened in the past, the present and the future. So that's why when you keep telling the same re-traumatizing story of what happened with a past breakup and catching infidelity, you can be flooded with tears because your body's actually creating stress hormones.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  Well, the same thing's happening when you are creating a fantasy about someone. I coined this future tripping. And so it's, it's creating all these feelings of the chemicals of dopamine and all these feel-good chemicals. And suddenly what's happening is your feelings skyrocket for that person. And then you might go on a few more dates and suddenly something feels off, the power dynamic is a bit off, and then you're clamoring for their attention, you want more, you might feel needy, and then it falls apart and then you're like completely heartbroken. This is a very common thing that happens at Renew with the women who tell their stories where they were in these relationships and in their head, they were married and had children

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  and retired in Bali like five times already. Whereas in the head of the person they were dating, they went on a few dates, had some good sex and that was that. And so if you have a tendency to do this, and if you have a tendency to meet someone, get really excited and suddenly your feelings skyrocket, what I would suggest to you is to do what's called the stop sign exercise. And what this is, is whether you're ruminating about the past and creating anxiety, or you're future tripping about a future that hasn't happened, imagine, close your eyes, imagine a big red stop sign and then say the word stop. And then look around you and just start.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  To look for everything you're grateful for and just be like, oh, I'm grateful for the beautiful sky right now. I'm beautiful for the rain. I'm beautiful. I'm sorry. I'm grateful for this cute dog and just keep going because what that's going to do is it's going to distract your mind from the original thought. And eventually, if you keep practicing this, the first few times, it might be hard. You'd be like, this doesn't work. But eventually, what happens is you're able to train your mind to actually just go off into this whole gratitude thing, which makes you present. And then you forget the original thought and it stops you from creating these fantasy relationships with people in your head.

• 1:08:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that you said that. I also think sometimes it's you need something else going on in your life. Like, I have found that when I wasn't as busy and I wasn't trying to run a business, I would have more time to fantasize and make up these scenarios in my head and imagine this life with this person. And when you are busy and fulfilled and killing it in life and doing other things and you have hobbies and workouts and you have a schedule and you're really living life, you just don't have the time and energy to do that, I think. I love that you said visualization for one. Like, people are like, what? Visualize a stop sign. I'm like, yeah, it's a thing. Like, visualize it and focus on like gratitude and something else. But even on a bigger schedule, like, do you have just a lot of time on your hands to sit around and fantasize? I mean, that's what they do in The Bachelor. So they

• 1:09:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  put all these girls in a house and they take away all their phones and their magazines and the books and there's no TV. And then they all are fantasizing about this one man and these women go crazy. They put them in this bubble, basically, and it's designed to do that exact same thing. And that's why you see these women act absolutely batshit insane. Every single woman in that house, not, you know, the exception with the few, think that's their soulmate.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  Right. And he's all that they have.

• 1:10:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then all they do is sit around all week with nothing but each other to talk about this man. And then he picks them for one date and then they go on this fantasy date and then they're like, of course, that's my future husband. And so it's, I almost tie it back into that, like, they just didn't have enough to do.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Pick up a book. Like, seriously, if you're just, if you're picturing your life with this guy you went on three dates with, pick up a fucking book. Put on Lizzo. Just do something else. I like your gratitude exercise, but or anything else.

• 1:10:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just, I just know this because I used to do this. I talked about a guy that I dated when I was, thought I was super in love with when I was 25 and I had this low paying job in PR. I was like, whatever, and I'll probably just like marry this guy. I love him and we're great. And that's that. And it's just like, no. But thank God we broke up. But I would sit around and do this thing of like, well, his job is perfect to that. I'm just going to move to Charleston and we're going to do this thing. And it's like, this guy's not thinking about me like this.

• 1:11:08Rayna Greenberg?

  That's so true, though. Like, you don't realize that in your mind, you've lived out the whole relationship and that person has literally just been on a couple of dates with you.

• 1:11:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  They have no clue.

• 1:11:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, you're like, we were dating, we dated. Like, they literally have no idea that you are in a marriage with them.

• 1:11:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's fun. It's fun sometimes to sit around and fantasize, but put the kibosh on it.

• 1:11:28Rayna Greenberg?

  As I would pick up a book. Ashley cannot stress this enough. Please pick up a book.

• 1:11:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Guys, we have friends, they have a great podcast called Bad on Paper. Lots of book recommendations. Grace Atwood and Pecca Freeman. We want to shout them out. Listen to their podcast. Get some book recommendations. Do literally anything else.

• 1:11:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Come to our shows. Can't recommend going to comedy enough. Go out, see a comedy show. See Ashley do stand up.

• 1:11:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Come see me, guys. Come see me tell jokes about all of my exes. It's cathartic. It's my therapy. Okay. Thank you for leaving us with that.

• 1:12:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I love you. Yeah. Thank you for interjecting that. That's really beautiful. We want people to be able to find you and find Renew Breakup Bootcamp. So where can they find your website, your Instagram?

• 1:12:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Send you DMs. You're going to get so many DMs.

• 1:12:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Stay as long as you want. Just keep talking.

• 1:12:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:12:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  You want to live here with us. You live here now. Do you like Dewey? Are you vibing with him? Because you're his new roommate.

• 1:12:23Rayna Greenberg?

  So my website is renewbreakupbootcamp.com. And my relationship blog is justmytype.ca, because I'm a Canadian. And on Instagram, you can find me at MissAmyChan, M-I-S-S-M-Y-C-H-A-N.

• 1:12:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Well, I hope you guys liked this re-released episode. You can find us at girlsgottaeat.com, Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess, Reina is Reina.Greenberg. And we will see you Thursday.

• 1:12:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a great week, guys. Bye.