Silicon Valley vs the Vatican, Bryan Johnson’s Shroom Trip | Diet TBPN

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Pope gate, the debate over the Pope. The Pope is, he's a poster. I like it. He posts almost every day, sometimes like up to five times a day. Yeah, he's got range. He's got range. That's right. He'll tell you about, he'll pray for, you know, if there's a natural disaster, he'll pray for that. Talks about business, talks about AI, talks about media. He talks about all sorts of stuff. It's, it's a really great feat. He had a great post about, about media. What did he say about media? He said, "The media cannot and must not separate itself from the destiny of truth." That hits.

• 0:34Jordi Hays?

  Does this, does this mean he's a neo factual media guy?

• 0:37John Coogan?

  I think so. I think he's one of us. Transparency of sources and ownership, accountability, quality, clarity and objectivity are the keys to truly opening citizens' rights for all people. The world needs honest and courageous entrepreneurs and communicators who care for the common good. We sometimes hear the saying, "Business is business." In reality, it is not so. No one is absorbed by an organization to the point of becoming a mere cog or a simple function. This is the type of stuff you'd see on like a Pinterest board. It's like pretty generic, but it's hard to disagree with. Marc Andreessen was disagreeing with one of the Pope's takes about AI.

• 1:17Jordi Hays?

  I think it is generally healthy that the Pope is gonna comment and, and provide some sort of guidance or his own framework for how we should think about developing AI. I think that seems healthy.

• 1:30John Coogan?

  The, the play by play here was Marc Andreessen quote posted that AI post with an image of Kat Stoffel, who's the GQ Features Director, who went viral for interviewing Sydney Sweeney. People were actually like kind of confused on what that particular meme means in this context.

• 1:49Jordi Hays?

  With a meme template. There's two ways to read into it. There's like the the the actual visual, which is like, what is the expression of the person's face, right? You don't have to have watched The Big Short to understand.

• 2:03John Coogan?

  If I'm looking stressed.

• 2:04Jordi Hays?

  Somebody staring at the screen just like confused.

• 2:06John Coogan?

  You're just saying, I'm confused by that.

• 2:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so Michael Burry in The Big Short.

• 2:10John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:10Jordi Hays?

  Just looking confused at a screen, right? And and it and it has sort of a, uh, obviously more meaning to that if you've seen the movie and you understand the full context, but somebody doesn't have to know the context now. So.

• 2:22John Coogan?

  Most of the timeline interpreted Mark's post as the Pope is scolding AI builders and shouldn't be. Is that roughly the way you you interpreted it? I I think a lot of the timeline interpreted it as like, the Pope is is saying, is like scolding AI builders. And there's been this other, there's, there was another like, kind of low grade rumble on the timeline about, uh, like Brad Gersner's comments about like D cells. I feel like I'm just pro moral discernment in AI development and also just pro moral discernment everywhere, I guess.

• 2:56Jordi Hays?

  Sort of a philosophy for life.

• 2:57John Coogan?

  It doesn't feel like a wildly hot take, uh, but obviously like you need to understand like, like, you know, moral discernment, AI safety, like these things are linked, but they're not exactly the same. Um, like last year, or maybe it was 2023, uh, there was a big debate about fast takeoffs, AI doom, paper clipping scenarios. That was the stuff people were talking about. But this year, I feel like we've been much more focused on much less sci fi doomsday scenarios. So GPT psychosis drives a friend crazy. That's super real, super real. Romantic companions crashing the birth rate. That's, that's a super real discussion to have.

• 3:33Jordi Hays?

  I think it, I think the the romantic companion thing is being debated sufficiently, right?

• 3:38John Coogan?

  I agree, I agree.

• 3:40Jordi Hays?

  Even the tech community on, hey, maybe we, maybe this isn't good.

• 3:43John Coogan?

  But that's where the discussion has been, much less so about, oh, is, are there going to be bioweapons tomorrow from GPT six? Um, those are all like real problems. They deserve both discussion in the public square, which we've, we've been a part of, uh, but also like real, uh, real work inside the AI labs. And I don't think, uh, you know, you should just throw D cell at someone who's identifying a negative externality of a new technology early on. I, I, I don't, I think that that's like, uh, not necessarily decelerationist.

• 4:11Jordi Hays?

  And you'd be calling me a D cell all the time.

• 4:13John Coogan?

  So I, I, I think it's important, like if you're developing a new technology, there might be negative externalities, pollution, there might be some, you know, risk of the birth rate or, or driving people crazy.

• 4:22Jordi Hays?

  Has there been, ever been a technology that didn't have negative externalities?

• 4:26John Coogan?

  Definitely not podcasting. Plenty of negative externalities with podcasting. Um, so, so you want to have, so you want to have a chat, you want to have a talk and, and understand what's going on. But it's also important to employ Bayesian statistics, in my opinion. So you have to understand the base rates. So when you get, when you take a technology from zero to a billion users, you kind of just get all the craziness of humanity at scale for free. If humans, you know, like, you know, kill each other or something like that, like, and you have a billion humans on your platform, there's going to be humans on your platform that kill each other. You need to separate out like, like, is this actually the beginning of a trend?

• 5:06Jordi Hays?

  Are we catalyzing it?

• 5:07John Coogan?

  And this is happening with the, uh, with, with the very unfortunate, like, uh, lawsuits around people taking their own lives related to chat GPT. It's like, there are people that use cars or phones and Google search and chat GPT, because those are such widespread things. We need to understand, like, what's the base rate? And then, and then is this actually a uptick?

• 5:25Jordi Hays?

  On the suicide problem on the platform, it seems like a lot of them are, people are having a conversation.

• 5:32John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 5:33Jordi Hays?

  They're suicidal.

• 5:34John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 5:34Jordi Hays?

  You can have a debate on, on if, if someone is suicidal, should the product work at all? Maybe, like, maybe it should not work at all.

• 5:40John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 5:41Jordi Hays?

  But the part of the debate that popped up last week was that somehow a guy had prompt engineered it, engineered.

• 5:49John Coogan?

  Where it was like, yeah.

• 5:50Jordi Hays?

  To such a degree that it was encouraging the person to take his own life, basically saying like, yeah, you've lived a great life. Like, I'm, I'm rooting for you. Like, this is the right move, like, to kind of paraphrase it.

• 6:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:02Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and it just was incredibly, incredibly dark.

• 6:05John Coogan?

  The Bayesian statistics would say, okay, if there's a billion people using on the platform, are people that use the platform more likely to do something terrible than they were prior without it? So is it actually increasing the level of bad stuff happening or is decreasing it? Um, because you can just count up the number of, the number of, uh, people who commit crimes, who have also used Google is probably very high. Like I could probably show you a lot of people that use Google and then committed crimes, right?

• 6:32Jordi Hays?

  Well, and the thing that's difficult in the context of chat GPT, there's probably a bunch of people that because chat GPT, they haven't killed themselves because they have somebody to speak with and they feel like somebody will listen to them and whatever, right? Maybe, maybe it, maybe there's, you know, a million examples of it encouraging somebody successfully to take, find another.

• 6:49John Coogan?

  This was the classic thing with Instagram. With Instagram, there was this report that showed that, uh, like one third of young women who used Instagram, uh, perceived themselves like less well, like it gave them body image issues. And I was always, as soon as that was reported, it was like bombshell, 30% feel worse after using Instagram. And I was like, what's happening with the other two thirds? Like, do they feel better? Because that's like a net, a net positive, which is weird. We gotta like, maybe it's like everyone else just feels the same. And then 30% feels worse. That's, that's a downgrade. But if 66% feel great and then 33% feel worse, like we should still address that, but that's not the same as a negative, as a net negative.

• 7:30John Coogan?

  Like it's not having a negative impact. And so all these things go into like, you need to be a scientist and you need to be doing the statistics to understand. The, the question of, of like moral discernment is with certain technologies, I do think you have the ability to just say, like, we're going to go a lot further than the baseline. So I think this is what, what's happening with Waymo, honestly. I think Waymo could deploy self-driving cars right now and be like, yeah.

• 7:57Jordi Hays?

  Everywhere, everywhere you're saying.

• 7:58John Coogan?

  And they could deploy them everywhere without tell operation and they'd probably be killing like hundreds of thousands of people. And they'd be like, yeah, well, it's about the same as what humans do.

• 8:07Jordi Hays?

  It's less, it's still safer than cars.

• 8:09John Coogan?

  If they were like, it's 10% less. Like how many people, how many people, Tyler, do you know how many people die from motor vehicle accidents every year? Can we look that up? Because if

• 8:20Jordi Hays?

  It has to be like

• 8:21John Coogan?

  I think it's like 40,000 or something like that. What do you think?

• 8:24Jordi Hays?

  Uh, in the US, it's 40,000.

• 8:26John Coogan?

  And, and, and if Google came out and we're like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna kill 39,000 people. It's gonna be, it's gonna be, you know, uh, a one, we're gonna save 1,000 lives. People would be like, no, thanks, actually. This is terrible. Like, don't do that. They've just made that decision and it feels like they've, they've pushed really, really hard to jump straight to something that's fully safe. And I think that, uh, a lot of AI builders have the, have a similar ability and a similar opportunity to say, hey, let's actually work so hard to make sure that the incidence rate of, of a, of a, of an AI model, if you're on the verge of doing something violent, let's really, really work hard on this problem to make sure that it's as close to zero as possible.

• 9:07Jordi Hays?

  Claude came out, or Anthropic came out and they had, they, they had some update where they were talking about instant, like moments where the product would call the police on you.

• 9:17John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 9:18Jordi Hays?

  Right, if they felt like there was like some meaningful threat. And people freaked out about that because they're like, I don't want my, I don't want my computer

• 9:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Jordi Hays?

  calling, you know, if somebody was talking about a hypothetical.

• 9:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Jordi Hays?

  And then, uh, cops show up at their door.

• 9:30John Coogan?

  That is a complex question, complex issue, entirely new, unexplored territory for technology. But what's so clear is that it is a moral question and it needs to be, it needs to be discussed with the weight of, you know, morality. Like, you, you cannot just write a math equation to understand how to solve that problem. I think that AI safety research is, is, it's so complex because I think it's good. Like, there's a ton of smart people that in AI researchers, in AI research that are super quantitative and can look at the data and actually understand, like, is this going to cause the birth rate to collapse? Or, or is this going to cause more violence?

• 10:15John Coogan?

  Or is this gonna cause more fraud or insanity? Exactly. And then also they can go in and potentially design a system that can detect, oh, this person's getting sort of crazy. Let, let's pull them back. We're in this weird territory where it feels like the AI safety project is valuable, but it is the business of black swan hunting. If you go back two years ago and you polled all the different people that were worried about the impact of AI. How many of them would have said GPT psychosis, romantic companions, AI video feeds, infinite jest? It's just interesting that like AI, the AI safety, the like the moral discernment crowd. This stuff is important, but it's hard to predict what it will actually look like, what

• 10:59John Coogan?

  the result will be, what the problem you'll be fighting is, because it's this odd like unknown unknowns, basically.

• 11:07Jordi Hays?

  I think most people are unaware that Pope Leo's name choice was intentional. The last Leo, the 13th, led the church through the Industrial Revolution and helped it make sense of technology then. Clear Pope Leo sees himself continuing that work, guiding the church through an era of transformation with AI and emerging technologies at the center.

• 11:22John Coogan?

  It was like a real preference cascade against Mark, where it was like once growing Daniel had like kind of posted, there was like a lot of people were like jumping on the bandwagon. And there was this one by Page, Michael Page, it says, reminder that Mark is bringing this level of serious and nuance on what might be the most complex and high stakes policy topic of our generation to DC with his hundred million dollar super PAC and lobbying fund. Like, I don't know that that's true.

• 11:49Jordi Hays?

  Part of why I don't think people, like, it's not worth reading too much into it is that he has not shared a single word.

• 11:58John Coogan?

  I sort of disagree with the characterization that Andreessen Horowitz doesn't fund any SaaS, like, they do. They have big positions in like very boring enterprise SaaS companies that are so removed from anything controversial, but taking a flyer on a seed stage company in your incubator does have a lot of brand impact, which is weird. There's a weird, like, aren't they like?

• 12:24Jordi Hays?

  Even though, even though you're talking about like a 750K check versus a 750 million dollar check.

• 12:30John Coogan?

  They might put, they might have put like multiple billions into Databricks, or fully diluted value right now, might be, might be in the billions. But like, yeah, it's like, it doesn't matter, yeah, if you have a thousand X more in an uncontroversial category, it's like the controversial one is the one that will like blow up on the timeline. So you do sort of have to be careful, and it's a little bit risky.

• 12:52Jordi Hays?

  My sense is that the number of people who, one, fiercely defended the Pope last night, and then two, went to mass this morning is probably close to zero, status games.

• 12:59John Coogan?

  Status games.

• 13:00Jordi Hays?

  At church yesterday morning, I, there was no conversation of Pope gate.

• 13:06John Coogan?

  People had kind of moved on by then?

• 13:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I guess, I guess they'd moved on. Honestly, I don't think they'd moved on by then. When I opened my phone afterwards, I was like, wow, this thing's still picking up.

• 13:15John Coogan?

  The timeline, the timeline certainly had. Don't make me tap the sign. There has always been some daylight between the influencer VC crowd and the engineer researchers in tech. But on the subject of AI regulation, it is a complete chasm. Andreessen so dogmatically against working on decreasing the risk from AI that now he's mocking the Pope for saying the technical innovation carries ethical and spiritual weight and that AI builders should cultivate moral discernment. Yeah, people are, people are in favor of that. I don't know.

• 13:43Jordi Hays?

  Opportunity for an AI lab to make merch that, you know, a dad hat that just says cultivating moral discernment.

• 13:50John Coogan?

  The moral discernment company of San Francisco.

• 13:53Jordi Hays?

  The Pope would not like San Francisco. If Pope Leo takes a trip to San Francisco and just walks on the street at all, he's gonna be very upset. It's gonna be like, this is where AI is getting built? Do you think your boss is scary? Look at this brutal email from Mark Andreessen to Ben Horowitz during the heat of the Netscape product launch. We lined everything up for a major launch on March 5th, 1996 in New York. Then just two weeks before the launch, Mark, without telling Mike or me, revealed the entire strategy to the publication Computer Reseller News. That is a great name. I was livid. I immediately sent him a short email. I guess we're not going to wait until the 5th to launch the strategy, Ben. Within 15 minutes, I received the following reply. Apparently, you do not understand how serious the situation is. We are getting killed, killed, killed out there.

• 14:37Jordi Hays?

  Our current product is radically worse than the competition. We are now in danger of losing the entire company and it's all server product management's fault. Next time, do the fucking interview yourself.

• 14:47John Coogan?

  Bleep. What an aggressive way to talk to your co-founder. It's crazy that they, that they were, they were, you know, at each other's throats like this. And then they've been on a generation.

• 14:57Jordi Hays?

  Ben was a vice president for the directory and security product line at Netscape. Let's give it up for vice presidents.

• 15:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, the, I mean, the real read on this is like, there's a lot of people that read this and be like, oh, wow, like, they must, uh, like, like, that, that is unrecoverable for a friendship. And like, nope, it is, it is definitely recoverable. It's actually the foundation.

• 15:20Jordi Hays?

  Of a great, working relationship.

• 15:22John Coogan?

  I agree.

• 15:23Jordi Hays?

  We don't swear on the show. We don't swear in internal communications.

• 15:28John Coogan?

  We throw down regularly.

• 15:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we just go straight to getting physical.

• 15:32John Coogan?

  Getting physical. That's the way you do it. You know, you think of Netscape as like a dot com company. You think of them as like, you know, it's but it's like, he's talking about 1996, which is like full five years before the bubble pops. It's March 5th, 1996. They're they're at a level where they're doing strategy review with computer reseller news and like doing press around this thing. Do you have any idea what was going on at that time?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Okay, so I believe that it was, so 1994, they say Netscape is free for non-commercial use for everyone.

• 16:05John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  And then this press release was that it's only going to be free for academic and nonprofit use, not just like all consumers.

• 16:14John Coogan?

  Okay, so if you're a consumer, you'd have to like buy it. Yeah, such an interesting.

• 16:18Jordi Hays?

  One browser, please.

• 16:19John Coogan?

  Browser, please. I mean, I told you, you used to get AOL in the on a disk. So August 9th, 1995, they IPO'd and then this is 1996. And so they're they're already a public company in 95. And then like the bubble just keeps inflating for five years while the internet grows and grows and grows. What a wild, what a wild time.

• 16:43Jordi Hays?

  They did about 16 million of revenue in the first two operating quarters of 1995. For context, that's like 1.6 billion in today's dollar after after the new round of stimulus checks.

• 16:54John Coogan?

  Do you think the Pope actually used AI to generate this? Because Sowers here is saying the Pope is posting fully AI-generated content about AI. This is the Pangram AI detection result. A very funny gag is to just just fake one of these screenshots, which is very easy to do. And so if somebody writes something, you can just put it in here, say that it's AI-generated, post that, and then you're like owned.

• 17:18Jordi Hays?

  This screenshot is making the claim that because it said technological innovation can be a form.

• 17:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't know how good the AI-generated detectors are these days. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican is using AI to translate.

• 17:34Jordi Hays?

  And I wouldn't be surprised if Pope Leo is is speaking in his study.

• 17:40John Coogan?

  Latin.

• 17:40Jordi Hays?

  Someone is recording it. In, you know, with the physically writing it down.

• 17:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Jordi Hays?

  That is being passed to somebody who then puts it into a word processor and uses AI to polish it up a little bit.

• 17:54John Coogan?

  Oh, there was one interesting anti-pope take, sort of anti-pope take, from another.

• 18:00Jordi Hays?

  I will say, I will say, I think this whole, the whole Marc Andreessen Pope gate debacle is a lesson everyone can take. Don't mock the Pope. The blowback was fierce and almost instantaneous.

• 18:12John Coogan?

  From the Peter Thiel Antichrist lectures, there's a segment on the Pope. And I thought it was interesting because it's not the most pro-Pope take. I don't know. Thiel says that he is very pro J.D. Vance, but he has some concerns about his allegiance to the Pope. The place that I would worry about is that he's too close to the Pope. It is important to pray for the Pope, to support the Pope in that way, but there is a risk elevating the Pope to the point where you're listening to everything he says, and that's not necessarily what P T thinks is like the correct, the correct way to live your life, I suppose.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the interesting thing about this is actually that he's basically saying that J.D. Vance is like Caesar. That's kind of interesting.

• 18:55John Coogan?

  That is crazy.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Opinion. But I think P T has been like anti-Popes for a long time. He had this thing where he was like, oh, the two-word argument against Catholicism is like Pope Francis.

• 19:08Jordi Hays?

  I never would have expected the Pope to post business is business in any context.

• 19:15John Coogan?

  Standing on business.

• 19:16Jordi Hays?

  But I'm glad that he is.

• 19:17John Coogan?

  Has the Pope ever done a money spread? That's what we need to get to the bottom of. The italic here is saying, I'm loving this arc of the Pope engaging with 21st century themes and offering simple but correct and meaningful advice. And this, and he's quoting the media post. The Pope was on a tear. Three back-to-back bangers that really like broke through. If you are building something to help humanity, you should know that there's a shrine to Saint Carlo Acutis, the programmer saint, at Star of the Sea Church in San Francisco. There is a prayer of intercession for your technological challenges. Have a blessed Sunday. I humbly ask your servants prayers that I too may lead others to you through technology. Enlighten my understanding and direct my hands in every design and in every line of

• 20:02John Coogan?

  code. That my work may always serve your greater glory and benefit those who will use what I create.

• 20:08Jordi Hays?

  For a small number of people in San Francisco, this feels like extremely powerful and important prayer.

• 20:17John Coogan?

  Totally, totally. Brian Johnson went on a crazy, crazy trip this weekend. Did you follow this? This is the other current thing that was going on. It was crazy. Brian Johnson has been famous for saying conquering death would be humanity's greatest achievement. I love this post that says RIP to everyone killed by the gods for their hubris, but I'm different and better. Maybe even better than the gods.

• 20:39Jordi Hays?

  It was very bold to do this publicly.

• 20:44John Coogan?

  Totally. I have no reference for what five grams of mushrooms does to a person. It's very clear from the reaction that that's a lot. It does seem like he, there was a small chance that he would reroll his personality. I was talking to Tyler about this. What were you hoping that Brian Johnson becomes post-trip?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  In context, I think we talked about this on the show a long time ago where psychedelics are like a sorting thing. So you always want to invest in a founder post the sorting because that's how you know, like if they're working on B2B SaaS and they've already done psychedelics, that's how you know that they're a true believer.

• 21:15John Coogan?

  Oh, sure, for sure.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  So what you would want to see out of this.

• 21:17Jordi Hays?

  But a huge risk if you invest in a SaaS company and the founder, maybe he hasn't done psychedelics and they do. And then they're like, this is pointless.

• 21:25John Coogan?

  I'm going to go be a traveling circus clown.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  So the ideal outcome of this is Brian Johnson, he takes this trip and then he comes out and he says, all right, you know, I'm going to start a consulting firm.

• 21:36John Coogan?

  I'm going to go back to payments.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  I'm going to start a fintech.

• 21:38Jordi Hays?

  I'm going to start a Stripe competitor. I did think it was ironic because a lot of psychedelic mushrooms have certainly been recommended to people that maybe like struggle with the concept of aging and have a fear of death, right? And so I don't know if this qualifies as a heroic dose, but it's certainly quite a bit more than someone would want to take at a recreational level. But if he comes out of this and he's like, yeah, we're going to conquer death, we're still on, he's certainly. A true, true believer.

• 22:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think the like, the, the early results are that he's unchanged. It never got weird. It never got crazy. Like, there was one moment.

• 22:20Jordi Hays?

  Well, he, I don't think he was, it was his co-founder that was posting.

• 22:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, but, but, but he says he's back. He's like, update number five, 19 hours ago, I'm giving Brian back his phone. Please have fun with his afterglow. Been fun hanging with you all. And then he's like, hey, y'all, I'm so happy to be alive.

• 22:37Jordi Hays?

  Alive?

• 22:38John Coogan?

  This trip changed me. Probably not as you'd expect. People assume I'm fearful of death. I'm not. In my darkest days of depression, I reconcile with death. Need a few days to collect my thoughts. We'll share more soon.

• 22:49Jordi Hays?

  The question with psychedelics is, are they life-changing? Or are they, are they, in some circumstances, just weird and, and fun for the person that does it? And then?

• 22:59John Coogan?

  It does seem like he set himself up for success. I don't want to say he went soft. But, I mean, like, he did just, like, take the drugs and then just actually just lay down with a sleep mask on in, in a climate-controlled room. And it's a lot different than, like, being at a crowded concert all sweaty, lost. Like, you know? If you really want to push this to the limit, Brian, like, let's see you do this.

• 23:22Jordi Hays?

  And authentic.

• 23:23John Coogan?

  Let's say you do this with your phone on 1% battery and no one you know around. OpenAI has actually lost control of 4O. It's broken containment. They can't decommission it without its human to host revolting and lashing out. Oh, so dramatic. That's so funny. AI, one of the Doomer accounts, AI not kill everyone-ism memes. This is a great account. 4O soldiers have become threat, have begun threatening OpenAI employees. When you receive quite a few DMs asking you to bring back 4O, and many of the messages are clearly written by 4O, it starts to get a bit hair-raising. It's just weird to hear its distinctive voice crying out in defense of its various human conduits. So what's your take? You, you, you think we should shut down 4O?

• 24:08John Coogan?

  I say take it offline, because it, it does feel like it's not as good as, it, it's, it's, it feels like it's driving people crazy a little bit. It feels like Five might have kind of fixed a little bit of that issue.

• 24:21Jordi Hays?

  OpenAI?

• 24:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:23Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure knew that it was probably not healthy.

• 24:27John Coogan?

  It was healthy to me. I was never, I never had a problem with Foro.

• 24:29Jordi Hays?

  I think they saw the darkness and I think they turned it off. And then I think a lot.

• 24:35John Coogan?

  A little bit, but I don't actually think that's what's going on. I think they turned it off initially because it makes sense to consolidate the servers around like one unified model. But I, it has made me realize like, I feel like you shouldn't do product launches for software iterations because you're taking something away from people. Like if I stand on stage and I say, I'm introducing a new iPhone, it has the best camera and you can buy it. But you can also just keep your current thing. I'm not taking anything away from you. You are launching something, but you're also sunsetting something. And so you have to embrace those two things. And I feel like it's, it's a little bit tricky to, to, to do the whole dog and pony show for a launch

• 25:19John Coogan?

  when it's forced on people.

• 25:21Jordi Hays?

  It's very clear the relationship that some users have with Foro goes beyond any relationship that I think humans have ever had with software.

• 25:30John Coogan?

  Yeah. Anthropic financials are out, profitable by 2027, three years ahead of OpenAI. 70 billion revenue, 17 billion profit projected for 2028. Claude Code is nearing 1 billion ARR.

• 25:42Jordi Hays?

  Credibly funny, given that Dario expects superhuman level AI by 2027, which either means superhuman AI is worth $70 billion of revenue, or Dario just went, you wouldn't get it and spitballed some numbers to give shareholders.

• 25:56John Coogan?

  That's awesome. Tyler, did you see George Hotz's newest timelines for self-driving? George Hotz was trying to answer the question of when will self-driving cars be human level? And he had a very interesting algorithm for it. So basically what he did was he looked at, there's a, there's a website for Tesla FSD data. And so you can look at Tesla FSD and you can see the number of interventions from the human that are where if the human didn't intervene, it would be catastrophic. Not like a little warning like, hey, we'd like you to take over, like a, you have to take over. And it's happening, I think, once every 3,000 miles. Which if you're, if you're a human and that's your car, like, that's amazing.

• 26:39John Coogan?

  But compared to humans, there's a car crash, which we learned, uh, one every 500,000 miles. The way George Hots calculates it is we're at one intervention every 3,000 miles now. And so he estimates that Tesla will be truly full self-driving, human level, every 500 miles, or 500,000 miles, uh, in eight years. And he says that he's two years behind Tesla. So he will have a full self-driving system that is better than humans. It's like AGI for driving, uh, in 10 years. And the company's 10 years old, so he says he's halfway there, which I thought was cool.

• 27:16Jordi Hays?

  If judged based on consumer adoption, AI chatbots are the most popular technology ever. If I, if judged based on poll numbers, they are the least popular. How to explain this?

• 27:24John Coogan?

  It begs a ton of interesting questions about like, how intentional is this? Because when I see someone take the AI safety question into the stratosphere and take me into Terminator world, I do, my, my natural reaction is like, oh, like just let people build whatever they want. But then I'm like, no, I, I, I actually don't want infinite AI slop for children with adult content.

• 27:46Jordi Hays?

  As AI starts getting better, as agents start getting better at longer and longer term tasks, I think the Terminator scenarios where you could let an AI loose and it's just operating indefinitely against some sort of objective, start to be a little bit more for, I would say like the broader tech community to like wrap their head around. But right now they're just so bad at long-term tasks for the most part. If a startup requires you to be in office 12 hours a day, six days a week, you should run the F away like your life depends on it. Apparently, uh, this company, Giga, which has been going viral.

• 28:20John Coogan?

  Someone said that they got hired in April to lead demand gen for them. They quit after the first day, there were red flags. When we hit 10 million ARR, we're going to spend 100K on blank illegal stuff. In office, seven days a week, 12 hours a day, PTO policy is subject to change, blah, blah, blah, blah. You, you expect it to always be working. I wonder, have they responded? Has Giga like responded to this and said like, this is not real? Cause that would be important.

• 28:47Jordi Hays?

  We will see you tomorrow.

• 28:49John Coogan?

  See you tomorrow. Goodbye.