Back on the Menu: Adrienne & Joe on Food TV, Tofu Tales, & Real-Life Friendship (First Episode Re-Release)

🎙️ We’re throwing it back to our first ever episode of The Chef’s Cut, as Adrienne and Joe dive into everything from food industry headlines to hilarious kitchen horror stories, including: 🍽️ Gregory Gourdet’s bold return to NYC’s dining scene 📺 Padma Lakshmi’s new cooking show—and how much the winner actually takes home 😂 Review Review: People who complain about sunshine 🥒 Fork It or Forget It: Pickle Lemonade + NYT’s hot take on Caesar Salad & French Fries 🔥 Joe’s tofu-in-a-wok story (spoiler: it nearly took off his eyebrows) 😱 Adrienne’s unforgettable Brillo Pad disaster that made it to the dining room 💬 Tune in for this fun, unfiltered, and flavorful conversation between two Top Chef stars turned podcast co-hosts. 📱 Follow Adrienne:⁠ @chefadriennecheatham⁠ 📱 Follow Joe:⁠ @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on The Chef's Cut, we have got an encore episode of our very first episode. This is so exciting. This is the first episode Joe and I ever did together. So, listen up and enjoy. See you soon.

• 0:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hello and welcome to The Chef's Cut. I am Adrienne Cheatham.

• 0:20Joe Flamm?

  And I'm Joe Flamm. Chef's Cut is a podcast where we're going to give you a seat kinda behind the scenes at the table with the chefs, giving you a little peek into, you know, real kitchen experience, the culture and the behind the scenes of it all.

• 0:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Food podcasts can be kinda difficult because you can't see the food that people are talking about, but that's not necessarily what we're here for. We're gonna go behind the scenes, giving you culinary advice, cooking techniques, but we're also gonna get a little bit messy, a little bit vulnerable, and talk about real things each week on the show, mostly because, and Joe might not agree, but we're actually friends. And we talk about this stuff all the time.

• 1:00Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, despite what some of your Chicago friends might say about me, you and I are actually very good friends.

• 1:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, if you go to the wrong part of the city, you might get kneecapped.

• 1:08Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, that's alright. My knees are still holding up. But you know, I think what sets us apart is that, you know, there's a lot of podcasts out there where they interview chefs. There are a lot of really great ones too, that I love, that you love, but not a lot of podcasts about chefs interviewing people. And you know, I think it's we have a unique perspective of knowing what questions to ask, because we know the conversations that have been had, you know? So, I think it's coming at it with a little bit different lens than the typical one where it's just like, "Oh, why did you become a chef? And what's your favorite thing on the menu?" And, you know,

• 1:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  And what's your signature dish?

• 1:43Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so I'll be able to be like, "What was the worst night of your life at a restaurant?" Because I know you had one.

• 1:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  We all have one.

• 1:50Joe Flamm?

  And I know it'll probably be the last thing you think about for 60 years from now.

• 1:56Joe Flamm?

  So, I think it gives us kind of a fun, unique play on it to be able to ask the questions that people don't even know exist.

• 2:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that's a good point. Once you've been in the trenches, you know what really goes into it. And so, you know how to kind of get those experiences from other people, because we all trauma bond over a lot of it.

• 2:16Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's one of those things you can't unknow.

• 2:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 2:18Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, people are like, oh, can you turn it off? It's like, I can turn it off if it's not my restaurant because it's not my problem. But it's like, I can't not know.

• 2:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 2:25Joe Flamm?

  Like, I'll see everything. Like, it won't bother me because that's not my problem. I don't have to wake up tomorrow, go into that restaurant and like, sit everybody down and be like, listen, you guys dropped forty seven forks on the floor while I was sitting here having dinner. It was absolute insanity. But, you know, I will notice that forty seven forks got dropped on the floor.

• 2:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah. It's always there. It's always ticking. Like, they're tracking everything.

• 2:47Joe Flamm?

  It's always there. You can't turn it.

• 2:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  But it's great to be able to know it's not your problem.

• 2:51Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 2:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's, that's the best part of it.

• 2:53Joe Flamm?

  Exactly.

• 2:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  So, you know, people might wonder why we're doing a podcast together. You know, some people don't know how we met. A lot of people do, but a lot of people don't know how we met. So as a pair, for anybody who does not know, Joe Flamm is the winner of Top Chef fifteen, which was the Colorado season. And in the finale, there was this amazing chef. I mean, this woman is fucking dope. And he beat her. He won. I'm that woman.

• 3:24Joe Flamm?

  I am that woman. You know what was crazy? I always think about is like, I remember the, you know, one of the things they told us early on, they were like, stay off Twitter. And when our finale aired, like, the next day, somebody tweeted at me, and they were like, can you believe he beat her on International Women's Day? And I was like, alright, first of all, first of all, okay, like, this film's.

• 3:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Six months ago.

• 3:48Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like, nine months ago. Secondly, it wasn't like a personal attack on Adrienne. Like, we both just cooked dinner. We both just cooked dinner. Like, this was not an affront to, to her as a chef. As much as, again, some other people on the South Side may have taken it.

• 4:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Who shall remain nameless.

• 4:07Joe Flamm?

  Um, but yeah, no, we were lucky enough. We were, we were out that season together. Uh, we met there, you know, and it was kind of, you know, it, it was a wild introduction, right? Because they did that whole thing where they didn't even introduce us to each other. They were like, oh, just, you know, cook a dish that, you know, says hello to the other chefs for you, which is not a thing.

• 4:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  No.

• 4:26Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know what I mean? I think people don't realize, they call that Top Chef stuff. It's like, not a thing we've ever done. Where it's like, day one of culinary school, they're like, okay, instead of introductions, we're all just gonna cook a dish. And that's how we meet each other. It's like, no, this isn't some, like, weird psychopath kindergarten. I mean. It kind of is, but you know, it's like, that's how it started. So it's like, even in the beginning, like, I didn't know you were from Chicago. Cause you don't really, you know, like, it comes out sometimes when you're home and you and I are chopping it up, but your Chicago accent isn't. It hides a little bit in that four years.

• 4:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, it's there.

• 4:58Joe Flamm?

  Going to school on the Florida Alabama line, wherever the hell, you know, you got your undergraduate degree with Jackie.

• 5:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much the Florida Alabama line. And my dad is from Mississippi. So we grew up going to Mississippi every summer. So.

• 5:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And that man's accent is strong. I've heard, I've, I've, I've talked to him on the phone.

• 5:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah. That's hilarious. Chicago is like Mississippi's backyard. So like, a lot of black people in Chicago, we're like, one generation removed from Mississippi. So we're pretty fucking country.

• 5:27Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. I don't think people realize that either. I think that's part of like that weird Chicago dialect shit.

• 5:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, exactly. But your accent was strong. So I knew right away you were from Chicago. And I, I had, there was like.

• 5:38Joe Flamm?

  People usually do.

• 5:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  There was a sense about you. I was like, he's not like a suburban, he's not like in Elmhurst. He's not like a, what, what's the other one with the E? North?

• 5:50Joe Flamm?

  Elgin.

• 5:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Elgin. You know, he's not one of those like suburb, like he's a Chicagoan. Like, he reminds me of like my cousins and my uncles. Like, I know this guy. And so we felt like a sense of camaraderie, I think, early on. And we'll get to some of this later, but like, I felt so comfortable with you. And even after the show aired, we've always been cool. Like, out of our season, you're probably the person, like, I talk with, like, we'll call, like you said, like, I'll call you to ask a quick question, thinking it'll be a two minute conversation. An hour later, we're both like, oh shit, I'm late for a meeting. We gotta go.

• 6:25Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. It's like, we've talked for everything, from every restaurant in Chicago to New York, to what your mom's doing, my mom's doing, and you know, I mean, all of our cousins.

• 6:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Joe Flamm?

  But you know, and I think this is not to get like too sappy on it, but the, the thing I always say when people ask me about, about you, the kind of person you are and how close we are and, you know, cause you've become so close is, you know, I always tell them the story about like, after, you know, I won and, you know, how weird it is. They're like, oh, it must've been a crazy party. And it's like, no, you go and you sit in an interview in a basement by yourself for two hours and they take you back to a hotel room where the only other person there is the person who you just had to go up against, who it's like, you just had, you know, the greatest night of your life. And they're like, I just almost had the greatest night of my life, you know?

• 7:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Damn, I never thought about it from your perspective like that.

• 7:12Joe Flamm?

  And so, you know, like when I got back to the hotel, like I think you were taking a shower or something and I was just sitting outside by myself and I was like, okay. Well, like I'm obviously not going to see Adrian this evening and I respected that. Like it was also emotionally draining. Like people don't realize we were out there for like 16 hours.

• 7:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 7:28Joe Flamm?

  On top of a mountain.

• 7:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  In the cold.

• 7:30Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. It wasn't that cold. We were like physically, emotionally, everything drained, right? We left it all out there. We left it all on the floor, you know, and I just remember sitting there by myself like, oh, this is going to be cool at some point when people know, um, you know, and you know, you finished your shower, you came back out, you came out to the balcony with a couple of beers, handed me one, uh, congratulated me and you and I ended up sitting out there for, you know, an hour or two chopping it up, just talk, talking, talking through the dinner like a post-game recap.

• 8:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? It, it was everything I, I, I already knew about you as a person from, you know, going through this whole thing with you, but just cemented in my mind like who you were and you know, what I mean, your, your level of character and everything. And so it's, you know, that's a story I tell all the time of just, you know, how close you and I are. Um, and how special it is. So.

• 8:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's awesome. I appreciate that.

• 8:26Joe Flamm?

  Well, I'm done saying nice things for you today.

• 8:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, that's, that's literally the nicest things I've ever heard you say. And I've really, I don't think I've like heard that.

• 8:33Joe Flamm?

  I try not to say them in front of you.

• 8:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's what I love about you. You're like the cousin or brother that I could just like talk shit about all the time. But that's the thing, like that night after the episode, I was like emotionally drained. It was like all the adrenaline left. And then you're just sitting there like, oh, I'm cold. I'm tired. I haven't really eaten in like a couple of days. Like I, beer is, you know, that's like dinner right there when you haven't eaten in a while. And so I'm like, I lost and I never went into the show thinking like, this is a competition I'm going to win. I was like, I'm just going to go there to cook and not embarrass myself. Um, that was questionable, but when we got to the end of it, you were in interview. I was back at the, I did my interviews quickly.

• 9:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Cause I didn't win, so it's much less to talk about, honestly. Um, they just want a couple of seconds of you crying and then they're like, okay, go home.

• 9:23Joe Flamm?

  They're like, cry more.

• 9:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm back at the hotel.

• 9:25Joe Flamm?

  Look at the camera, cry more.

• 9:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Tell us how disappointed you are. I'm like, I didn't think I was disappointed until now, but shit. Like I thought it was actually fun and I, I thought we both did great.

• 9:34Joe Flamm?

  Right. They're like, you see this puppy? We're going to give it to you now or not. Cry more.

• 9:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  We're gonna twist this puppy until you cry.

• 9:40Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was like, so I get back to the, to the hotel. I'm by myself and I'm like, whoa, this crazy experience. I'm like, I need to decompress. So like I hop in the shower and then I hear you come in and I'm, I'm like, Jojo, I thought they were gonna take you to the place with the other people from the show so that like you could celebrate. And I'm like, he just won and he's just like sitting on the balcony by himself, like with me being sad. I was like, no fucking way. Like that's not gonna happen. In no world will I allow that to happen. You just won Top Chef. So like, if it's just the two of us and I'm a little bit of a Debbie Downer, you're just gonna have to deal with it. But we're gonna have a beer together and we're gonna like hang out and celebrate the fact that you won.

• 10:23Joe Flamm?

  Hey, you know, I remember saying to you before, and I was like, either way, it's coming home to the south side.

• 10:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Damn right.

• 10:28Joe Flamm?

  We brought it back.

• 10:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, what do you say? We just jump right into our first segment? We are calling this one, Review Review. Joe, do you wanna tell everybody what this is all about?

• 10:39Joe Flamm?

  Oh, I've been looking forward to this all morning, all morning. Review Review is a segment we're doing every week. We're basically, now they have all these online platforms, right? Everybody can review you. There's no, you mean, you don't have to put up any certification to leave a Google review or, or whatever platform, you know, Yelp, whatever, OpenTable, to leave a review at a restaurant. And it's helpful, like as a restaurant owner, sometimes it can be really helpful. Like if somebody had a bad night, somebody had, you know, off thing, like we reach out, we do things, you know what I mean? We try to, you wanna make it right, right? That's the backbone of hospitality. However, some of these reviews, especially these one stars, are so wildly egregious,

• 11:21Joe Flamm?

  are so out of restaurants' control, that I feel like this is our little segment to be, be the voice, to be the clapback.

• 11:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 11:30Joe Flamm?

  For, for our industry brothers and sisters out there who wish they could say these things back to these reviews.

• 11:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 11:37Joe Flamm?

  Go over some fun one star ones we find, uh, and be able to respond to the ridiculous nature that this has become.

• 11:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's a little too democratic, I think. Like, you, you know, it's like, have you worked in hospitality in any, any way? Or are you just like, you know what? I was in a really bad mood and they didn't bring me my drink fast enough. Or, you know, it's like, what? I don't know. It it makes me mad, but a lot of our friends are sending us some of the reviews that they have. Um, so today, are we gonna read one that somebody sent us? Are you gonna read one from yours?

• 12:10Joe Flamm?

  I think, uh, I I think we should, we should read, we could read one from mine.

• 12:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 12:16Joe Flamm?

  Just, just, just says, well, let some people send us some more, but, uh, I I had a pretty good one pulled up. I have a, a really good one that I'll pull up later at some point.

• 12:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ew.

• 12:27Joe Flamm?

  It's one of the guys I yelled at on the phone. And he couldn't believe it.

• 12:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's right, cuz you call people when they leave bad reviews.

• 12:36Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I do. I do. I, I.

• 12:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, that is the most Southside thing I've ever heard. It's like, if, if you knew their address, I'm sure you would just roll up on them.

• 12:45Joe Flamm?

  Oh, I'd knock on their door. I'd be like, you, I'd have it printed out, and I'd be like, let's talk about this.

• 12:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Post it all over their workplace.

• 12:53Joe Flamm?

  Right. I would go to their workplace and be like, listen, I did not have a great time with your insurance sales.

• 13:01Joe Flamm?

  Alright, so this is just a random one from mine, one of the one stars. And it's like, listen, you get good ones and get bad ones.

• 13:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  And now, you do have three restaurants, Joe.

• 13:10Joe Flamm?

  Yes.

• 13:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  So which restaurant is this one from?

• 13:13Joe Flamm?

  I, I, I'm not gonna name names.

• 13:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 13:15Joe Flamm?

  Uh, you know, we're gonna keep, we're gonna keep people's anonymity as much as we can.

• 13:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, we'll keep it classy.

• 13:21Joe Flamm?

  You know, um, but, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, somebody told me once, you're not as good as your best review, and you're not as bad as your worst. You have the customers, just the only truth. You're busier, you're not. But, you know, with the one stars, it's like, hey, we're not a hundred percent, a hundred percent of the time, and as much as we try to be. So if it's on us, I'll call people, I'll invite them back in, I'll say, hey, come back in for dinner, I'd love to buy you drinks, whatever it is, you know what I mean, try to fix it. However, some things, as much as I am a control freak and try to curate your experience to the best of my ability, and so does my team, are wildly out of my control. So this was a review we got a while ago.

• 14:02Joe Flamm?

  They, they said, this is the little context for, for everyone. This person sat outside on our patio, uh, which we have in Chicago for about forty-seven days a year when the weather permits. Um, so he said they couldn't give me a table in the shadow because it was a table for a party of four. Then a party of two came, which is smaller than four for those of you following along at home. Um, and they gave them a table. Terrible. They said they moved the umbrella, and they didn't. One star.

• 14:29Joe Flamm?

  So this is

• 14:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Dear God.

• 14:31Joe Flamm?

  This is the stuff.

• 14:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Nothing to do with the food.

• 14:33Joe Flamm?

  This is the stuff where I'm like, first of all, you're sitting outside.

• 14:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're sitting, you asked to be seated outside.

• 14:39Joe Flamm?

  You are sitting outside.

• 14:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Lucky enough to get a sunny day in Chicago, you better.

• 14:42Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's like you're out of your, you're complaining about sunshine in Chicago? Sunshine in Chicago? You better come shovel a parking spot on my block. If you're gonna complain about sunshine in Chicago, I better see you salting sidewalks for old people and everyone in between. If you are complaining about sunshine in Chicago, you are out of your mind. Is the beer too cold?

• 15:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 15:04Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Like, is the food too hot?

• 15:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Is your champagne too sparkling? Is it too bubbly?

• 15:08Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's just like, these are the ones where it's just like, you're like, what, what do you want me to do here? You want me to bring it back to winter? You want me to sit you outside in three feet of snow? Like, i- i- it's just like, these are the ones where it's like, hey, you know what I mean? Some people have a bad time. I get it.

• 15:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Joe Flamm?

  Some people, also, it's like, you're a party of four, and the party of two, which was smaller than yours, fit in a spot you didn't fit in?

• 15:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 15:30Joe Flamm?

  I knew to explain that to you?

• 15:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, thank you. It's like.

• 15:33Joe Flamm?

  It's like, do you not understand space or math or?

• 15:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's so ridiculous. It legitimately changes the average of a restaurant on these platforms. And if you're pulling up a platform and you're in a city or you're traveling somewhere and you're like, oh, what about this restaurant? You're like, oh, well, the rating's only 4.5 or 4.2, like. But if you look at the reviews, you're like, oh, all the reviews that are five star talk about the food and the service. All the bad reviews are like, this person was clearly in a bad mood.

• 16:03Joe Flamm?

  I remember working at Girl on the Goat, and somebody left us a one star review because they were like, I went in, it was super busy, I couldn't get a table, one star. It's like, you didn't go here.

• 16:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 16:13Joe Flamm?

  You, like, that's insane. That's like reviewing a movie that you're like, I went to the movie theater, it was sold out. Movie sucked, I didn't get to see it. It's like, well, you didn't see the movie.

• 16:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you.

• 16:22Joe Flamm?

  Like, how are you reviewing this?

• 16:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Okay, so, next up on the show, we have a segment that we're gonna call Line Check. And this is gonna be conversation about things going on in the industry this week. It could be a pop-up, it could be a restaurant opening, it could be a chef opening a new place, you name it. So, Joe, do you wanna go first? What are you simmering on today that's happening in our industry?

• 16:46Joe Flamm?

  Um, the one thing I I've been, I will say this is something that, you know, obviously I don't live in New York. Obviously I'm in Chicago, but the one thing that I have loved seen is the Gregory Gordo return to New York.

• 16:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Gordo.

• 16:59Joe Flamm?

  Is it Gordo?

• 17:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh huh.

• 17:01Joe Flamm?

  No way.

• 17:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 17:02Joe Flamm?

  I always just call him Gigi.

• 17:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I know, everybody calls him Gigi.

• 17:05Joe Flamm?

  Just call him Gigi.

• 17:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, I love Gigi.

• 17:07Joe Flamm?

  Anything because I'm from Chicago, but Gregory's return to New York, I think has been like, like it. Don't get me wrong, it's got a ton of press, like it seems awesome with the reviews and all that. But it's like, I don't think people realize what a big deal it is for a chef to come in. Even though he like lived in New York, he was a New York chef for a year, but to come in from the other coast. And like hit it hard there, I feel like never.

• 17:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, and with his own restaurants.

• 17:34Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's like, I think that is a, even as much as a big deal as people can make it, I think it's still a way bigger deal. I think it's like.

• 17:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's so exciting.

• 17:43Joe Flamm?

  Way bigger deal. He's one of the, like, literally the sweetest. People I've ever met.

• 17:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  He's such a good person.

• 17:51Joe Flamm?

  Whenever I see that dude's face, I'm like Instagram, I just like want to hug him.

• 17:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, I love Gigi.

• 17:56Joe Flamm?

  I just want to hug that dude.

• 17:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  So my husband and I went to the opening party for Gregory's new restaurant Maison Passerelle.

• 18:03Joe Flamm?

  Of course you did.

• 18:04Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it was awesome. This was one of the like most fun opening parties. It's this beautiful new department store, high end French place. And Gregory's not just doing the food at Maison Passerelle. He's got a cafe and a champagne bar with snacks. And it's all kind of like Haitian, French, you know, like.

• 18:26Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 18:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Beautiful flavors, sick technique. I mean, the food at an opening party for the food to be this good. We went back for dinner like three weeks later.

• 18:36Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 18:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I never go to somebody's restaurant within the first three months of opening, but it was so freaking good. Oh my God.

• 18:43Joe Flamm?

  Well, I think it's different with friends too, right? Because like I'll go to friends restaurants early because it's like, you know, like, hey, I'm a safe place, right? You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to know what's good, what's bad, how, how it's going. And like, you know, like you were saying, like when it's good that early, you're like, man, y'all were putting in work.

• 18:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 18:59Joe Flamm?

  You were putting in work leading up to this to make it this awesome this early because like the food looks great and just like. And not even like the stuff of the press, but just the stuff I've seen on like social media, just like. I love the plates he chose. They're like really cool, interesting colors, like, you know. Gregory's just like, I feel like he's so brilliant with that stuff. You know what I mean? He's still like stylish and fashionable and like.

• 19:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Yeah, the man's, he's got style and it's reflected like on the plates, like the styling of the plates, the plateware that they selected, all of that, it really comes through. And one of the coolest things, yes, the entrees were fricking amazing. There was this lobster pasta, all this, but one of my favorite dishes, oh my God, the french fries too. Oh, I just forgot about those. One of my favorite dishes oddly enough was an asparagus soup.

• 19:47Joe Flamm?

  Really?

• 19:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, right? Like, I, I mean, we just, the waiter was pretty, you could tell he was like pushing it. I was like, okay, but it's asparagus soup. He was like, no.

• 19:57Joe Flamm?

  But then when you get that like aggressive push on something, especially when it's something where you're like, I'm not gonna order that.

• 20:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. I'm like, I get it. It's spring. It's asparagus.

• 20:05Joe Flamm?

  Like, I will order this if you leave me the fuck alone.

• 20:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. He was like, but no, it's really good. You should try it.

• 20:11Joe Flamm?

  Right. But that's the best though. The one you ordered, that's like one of my favorite things that happens at a restaurant. When you order something you didn't want to order that they talked to you to do it, you get it, you're like, god damn it, this is so stupid.

• 20:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know. And I was like, okay, it could be a sleeper. Like, I love finding those sleepers on the menu. And that asparagus soup was absolutely a sleeper. It was like, holy shit, this is the best asparagus soup I've ever had. So if I do go somewhere early, like you said, it's mainly just to show support for a friend of mine because I'm, I'm like, I want you guys to be crushing it. You want butts in seats. We want this place to be popping and I'm there just to show support. And people who are like, oh, the service was clunky. It's like, they're just, they're getting systems together.

• 20:54Joe Flamm?

  It's like, you're clunky. Like, you know what I mean? Get out of here. Service is clunky. It's like.

• 20:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. It's like, what? Like, I had a great experience there. Steven and I were having a great evening, a great dinner. And when I was texting with Gigi the next day, he was like, you know, I'm sorry if some of the food was taking a little while to come out of the kitchen. I was like, it didn't.

• 21:13Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 21:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  I was like, we weren't waiting at all. I was like, we had a great time and it's a beautiful space.

• 21:18Joe Flamm?

  You think Steven complained while you were in the bathroom?

• 21:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Definitely not.

• 21:21Joe Flamm?

  Definitely not. Definitely not.

• 21:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Definitely not.

• 21:24Joe Flamm?

  Definitely not.

• 21:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  He knows, he's an industry.

• 21:26Joe Flamm?

  That would be wild.

• 21:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  He's an industry spouse, he knows.

• 21:29Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, that's, that's absolutely top of my list next time I come to New York. You're taking me.

• 21:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, you got it. Oh, can we go together?

• 21:36Joe Flamm?

  You're taking me to Gigi's restaurant. Yeah, it's the only way I'm gonna be able to get in.

• 21:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, shut up. You're the winner of Top Chef. You can get in anywhere, right?

• 21:43Joe Flamm?

  I need, I need, I need that AG clout, you know what I mean? For in Chicago, it's a different story, but I come to New York, I gotta.

• 21:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're on my turf now.

• 21:50Joe Flamm?

  I gotta roll with my fancy friend.

• 21:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, it's like when I'm in Chicago, I always ask you to like make me reservations because you're cooler.

• 21:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  So for me for line check, I've never really watched cooking shows. Didn't watch Top Chef before we went on, none of that. So I'm kind of not as up on everything going on, but something I keep hearing about recently is that Padma is starting a new show. That's gonna be on, is it NBC or CBS?

• 22:20Joe Flamm?

  I have no idea.

• 22:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  So it's gonna be like a major network cooking competition show.

• 22:25Joe Flamm?

  Okay, what's the like, do you know, any like format-y, have they said anything yet?

• 22:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't know that much about it. The only things that I know is that it's not gonna be as crazy in terms of the types of challenges as Top Chef, because they really want chefs to be able to show technique. They want like high level food and they're gonna take it through different lenses, but I don't know what those are, but they're saying they really want chefs to be able to showcase talent and technique.

• 22:57Joe Flamm?

  The only thing I've heard about it.

• 22:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Uh oh.

• 22:59Joe Flamm?

  Is that you win a million dollars.

• 23:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Who's got a million, like who is funding this?

• 23:05Joe Flamm?

  And I, you know what I mean? I was, I was like, a friend of mine called me about it and he was like, what do you think? You know, blah, blah. He's like, it's a million dollars. And it was like, you know, like Austin Powers was like, a million dollars? You know what I mean? Like, it was like my only original thought, which was wildly unhelpful when someone's calling you for advice. And you're just doing Austin Powers impersonations, like, uh, so it's like.

• 23:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's pretty much how our conversations go when I call you to ask a serious question.

• 23:29Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's like, well, it's like the Chicago way. It's like, listen, I'm gonna help you out, but I get to make fun of you for this. For as long as I want, as long as I agree to help you, then you're agreeing to let me be like.

• 23:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  You are subject to my ridicule.

• 23:43Joe Flamm?

  As long as I want, until this part, until we are done with this. Like if we are building a chair from Ikea together, or if we are building a restaurant together and you need my help. And you had to call me and ask me, like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna show up.

• 23:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that is so.

• 23:59Joe Flamm?

  But half the reason I'm gonna show up is to talk shit.

• 24:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah, like, we will make fun of anything. I'd be like, oh, hey, white sweatshirt, like.

• 24:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  We will talk shit about any and everything. I love that about us. So you were saying that your friend called you. And what was your advice to them? Or what's the thing that you know about the show?

• 24:18Joe Flamm?

  That was it. I did it. You win a billion dollars. I was like, I would go, I was like, you know, and that's like weird, like you're right, like, you know, when I did Top Chef, I didn't have kids. I didn't have my own restaurants. So it's like, it's a lot different ass now, the idea of going on a TV show. And TV is very different for me. I don't like. You know, my passion is restaurants. My passion is a TV. I've always said, like, if somebody came to me tomorrow and they were like. You can never do another minute of working in a restaurant in capacity. I'd be like, no. No, that doesn't work. Like, I will just like the, like, what's my backup plan? Like making a run at Cuba, seeing if I can take it over. Like, there's no good options here if you don't let me do that thing.

• 24:59Joe Flamm?

  But if somebody came to me tomorrow and they're like, you could never do another minute of TV, I'd be like, all right, that's, you know, I did it. I was really lucky. I was fortunate. I did way more in my life than I ever thought I would. But it's really fun when you get to do it, right? But it's like, so it's always interesting to me. The new competitions come out and it's like, what ones hit, what's ones don't. I had a friend who was on a show years ago. A Bravo that was supposed to be this big new thing and it was.

• 25:26Joe Flamm?

  I mean, we could talk about whoever went, doesn't fucking matter. But the show was called, I don't know if you remember this one, it was called, it was only one season ever. It was Around the World in 80 Plates.

• 25:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God, yeah. What happened to that show?

• 25:39Joe Flamm?

  It, one season totally crashed out, didn't work out at all. But my buddy was on it, and I remember when he went on it, we were all like, "Oh, my God, you are gonna be so famous. We're not gonna be able, like, this is the last time we're gonna be in the public with you." Like, and he's a great chef. He's done really, really well. He has, you know, like, uh, like, four restaurants now. Uh, it's been awesome. But it's just like this weird little, like, blip that he was on the show that, like, nobody knows about. But it's like, you know, really funny. So it's always interesting to see, like, which ones hit, which ones don't. Even like, you know, when they relaunched Iron Chef with, you know, Kish and, um...

• 26:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Was Alton Brown?

• 26:15Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it was Alton Brown. And it was like, one season, and they never ran it back from there. Which, that was a bummer too, because like, Old Iron Chef, I think, was the pinnacle.

• 26:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  I literally...

• 26:27Joe Flamm?

  I was the sous chef on a episode of Iron Chef.

• 26:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God, with, uh, with Stephanie?

• 26:31Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God!

• 26:33Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I don't know if you know this, but you, you can find it out there. It's Battle Bread versus Michael Simon. Uh, you see a very, a very young Joe Flamm out there rocking a bandana, wearing the goat uniform.

• 26:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  So we're gonna move on to our first game of the day, and I'm super excited for this. Joe, you know what we're calling this. We're calling it Fork It or Forget It.

• 26:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so this one, it's all about trending topics, stuff we see going on, whether it's, you know, in publications, on the internet. But all those, you know, like, they're always talking trends in food, trends in food, you know what I mean? Trends in restaurants, what we see now. Um, and you see all these big articles about it. So, uh, it gives us the opportunity to say whether we should fork it or forget the one.

• 27:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Some of them are legit, once you try them. Some of them, not so much. So, should I go first?

• 27:25Joe Flamm?

  Why don't you let her rip? So I'm gonna let you go first. I'm gonna set, I'm gonna set you up here.

• 27:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  So for mine, the thing that I'm seeing recently, pickle lemonade.

• 27:36Joe Flamm?

  Where are you seeing this?

• 27:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  I saw this, I saw this in the Times Food section, but I feel like it's something that was like...

• 27:42Joe Flamm?

  Like, a fake pop-up bodega in the Hamptons or something, like in... Like where they're like.

• 27:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Full disclosure, I did not read the blur.

• 27:50Joe Flamm?

  It's like, like a, like a Kool-Aid pickle, but like for like bougie people, uh, who, you know.

• 27:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  I feel like people who are not from Chicago don't know about the Kool-Aid pickle, but that is a real thing.

• 28:01Joe Flamm?

  Is that a Chicago thing?

• 28:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 28:04Joe Flamm?

  You guys don't get Kool-Aid pickles though? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The South, they rock that. I think that's where it came from, no?

• 28:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think so.

• 28:09Joe Flamm?

  Mississippi and they started, because those are like a corner store staple.

• 28:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. You could always get like a Kool-Aid soaked pickle and some people would put a peppermint stick in it.

• 28:19Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no, that's disgusting. That should be illegal.

• 28:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's nihilism.

• 28:22Joe Flamm?

  I'm not, I'm not a Kool-Aid pickle guy either, but that's, it's here, that pickle lemonade. This is, this is what it invokes for me. Remember when the picklebacks were everything? And those of you don't, if you're not familiar with the pickleback, pickleback is when you do a shot of whiskey, typically in Chicago would be Jameson or Irish holy water.

• 28:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  JMo.

• 28:43Joe Flamm?

  And you would chase it with a shot of pickle juice. And that was like everywhere. I remember like Oshville opened and they were like, oh, it was like, oh, you just go there like rip picklebacks. We'd go do picklebacks. Everybody's doing pickle. And then it was like every bar, me and you were in New York together. We were at the Breslin with Tyler ripping pickle, pickle. And I kind of feel about it like the same way with this lemonade a little bit. It's like, you know, it's like, well, if we're drinking whiskey, why don't we just drink whiskey? Why are we also drinking pickle juice?

• 29:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you. If I'm, if I'm having lemonade.

• 29:12Joe Flamm?

  It's not a cigarette. It doesn't make this better.

• 29:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Not like menthol?

• 29:16Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, but like, but it's like, yeah, if I'm having a lemonade, like lemonade is pretty nice. You know what I mean? Like.

• 29:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Why do I need to make it like weird, briny?

• 29:28Joe Flamm?

  Why is that the ad? Like, there's been enough ads for lemonade. You know what I mean? Whether it's.

• 29:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  Blueberry lemonade.

• 29:34Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, all the fruits, all the liquors. They all work. They all work. We don't need more additions. We can, we could stop this quest for a weird. Like, and also it's like, is that not acidic enough for you that you gotta add vinegar to it?

• 29:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you.

• 29:49Joe Flamm?

  It's like adding all the things that already is. It's like, oh, this is really sweet, really acidic.

• 29:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  And now I need salt.

• 29:56Joe Flamm?

  Right. So now I'm gonna add a bunch of.

• 29:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  You know what this is missing? Pickle grind.

• 30:01Joe Flamm?

  Like, so it's like, would I try it? Yeah, I don't know. Probably because I'm weird, but like, I'm not seeking that out. I'm also not making it.

• 30:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I'm definitely not.

• 30:12Joe Flamm?

  Oh, I gotta, I gotta try this recipe. I gotta make a lemonade with some pickle juice in it. That'd be a cool, that'd be a cool way to get my kids to not like me.

• 30:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're a parent. You've got enough of that positivity coming up.

• 30:26Joe Flamm?

  They'll be, you know, twenty seven years old, the therapy, like, why do you not trust people? It's like, okay, my dad made this lemonade one time. That was absolute bullshit.

• 30:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I tasted it and I was like, what is this?

• 30:37Joe Flamm?

  I thought your dad was like a good chef. Yeah, I thought he was too, until that moment.

• 30:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  And now I trust nobody and I trust nothing. Um, so I am a little curious about it. If I try it, I'll let you know. Um, recommendations on what are your thoughts between sour pickle brine, which is fermented, dill pickle brine, which is saltier, or bread and butter pickles?

• 31:00Joe Flamm?

  I'm really only a bread and butter pickle guy.

• 31:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, because I have all three pickles in my fridge, so.

• 31:04Joe Flamm?

  I'm not a dill pickle person.

• 31:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  What?

• 31:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, it's a weird thing. I love pickled vegetables, but like a straight up like dill cucumber pickle.

• 31:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Just when you think you know somebody.

• 31:14Joe Flamm?

  But like a bread, I could eat a jar of bread and butter pickles.

• 31:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  My mom, what is that? My mom is the same way. No matter where she goes, the woman has bread and butter pickles with her.

• 31:24Joe Flamm?

  I think it's like, my Irish grandma was like this, and I'm like, this was stuff where we just love, like, sweet smash burger, like a smash burger with bread and butter pickles on it.

• 31:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  That extra sweetness instead of, but see, that's what I like about the dill pickle is like, it's cool and refreshing and a little salty.

• 31:40Joe Flamm?

  I love you, but you're wrong.

• 31:43Joe Flamm?

  I just need you to know it. It's like, I like, I made smash burgers the other night. And I make like, you know, regular smash burger, American cheese, whatever, but I do like mayo, barbecue sauce, garlic powder, and then a bunch of bread and butter pickles, like chop them up, a little of the liquid, whisk that into the combo, and that's like your smash burger sauce.

• 32:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 32:06Joe Flamm?

  Rips.

• 32:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's kind of like Thousand Island.

• 32:09Joe Flamm?

  Almost.

• 32:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  But, but better.

• 32:10Joe Flamm?

  So it's like, it's like Goose Island in Chicago.

• 32:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love that. Okay, so that is my fork it or forget it is pickle lemonade. You're against, I'm curious. So if I give it a try, I will report back. If I try it with bread and butter pickles also, I will let you know which which taste tests came out on top.

• 32:31Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, make it for your nephew. So they have a reason not like their aunt in New York.

• 32:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  I can't do that to them.

• 32:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, exactly. That's my point.

• 32:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  I can't. I can do it to myself. I can't do it to my baby.

• 32:39Joe Flamm?

  That's my point. That's how you know it sucks. Um, all right. So I got one for you.

• 32:45Joe Flamm?

  I read New York Times article the other day of the, it was like, get Caesar salad and french fries at the bar. Caesar salad and french fries at the bar. Such a thing like Caesar salad and french fries.

• 32:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 32:57Joe Flamm?

  Now, I want, I want to give it a little context. I want to give it a little clarification. I love french fries. I love Caesar salad. I have a restaurant that serves both of those things. You could go sit at the bar right now and have that combo. Is it a killer combo? Absolutely. It rips.

• 33:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  A hundred.

• 33:13Joe Flamm?

  It rips. I have no issue with that. But this is the New York Times. All right.

• 33:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Joe Flamm?

  This isn't a high school newspaper where it's like some 15 year old who's just like, holy shit. Have you had a Caesar salad before? And some other 15 year old being like, no, I haven't. Cause we are in, you know, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and you were 15. Like, who doesn't know this?

• 33:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  I think exactly.

• 33:41Joe Flamm?

  Who needs to know that this is awesome? And they're like, oh, this is the thing. Like you have to go do it. Like have a martini with the Caesar salad and french fries. It's like, yes, that rips. That's great. That's awesome. Everybody knows it. But it's like, we have all these publications, all these reviewers who will come at you guns a blazing about how, you know, the food's really good, but not revolutionary. Didn't blow my mind. You know, it's not, is it, is it distinct enough for New York, Chicago, San Francisco, whatever it may be? And then in the same breath, you're gonna be like, yo, everybody should just eat Caesar salad.

• 34:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like, it's like, you're sending me mixed messages.

• 34:20Joe Flamm?

  It's like, what do you mean? What do you mean?

• 34:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  So, okay, I think that came along, that being something maybe they seem deemed newsworthy, came along with the rise of like hashtag girl dinner. Like, my husband travels for work a lot. So when he's out of town, I mean, I'll save my confessions for later, but like, I live like a bachelor. So I'm either a complete degenerate and I'm like barely feeding myself or keeping myself alive when he's not home. Or I am at a bar, having dinner by myself and I will get like some kind of salad, french fries. I'll usually go glass of wine, though a martini at, I don't know, martini's a little aggressive for me these days.

• 35:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Um, so I'll go like a some kind of salad, some kind of carb. If they have like a homemade bread, I'll swap out the fries for a bread. So it's like, I have a vegetable, I have a carb and I have a glass of wine and like, that is my dinner.

• 35:24Joe Flamm?

  Right, listen, listen, and I have no, there's no shame in that game. I appreciate that dinner. I appreciate that dinner. There's nothing wrong with that.

• 35:35Joe Flamm?

  Is that a frontline news article? That you have a salad and french fries? So does everybody else. Like both of those things, neither one of those things are alike, you know what I mean? Like, like I understand I'm in a place of life where I'm doing better than I was 10 years ago. But it's like 10 years ago, I had the means to get a Caesar salad and a french fries. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a wildly unattainable thing where it's like, oh, like, yeah, if you're ever in Iceland, you have to have the fermented shark with the french fries. It's like, whoa, that's crazy. Tell me more about that. It's like, you want me to read a whole article about Caesar salad and french fries?

• 36:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right. Okay, I get that.

• 36:14Joe Flamm?

  Like, what in the chat GPT happened?

• 36:19Joe Flamm?

  That this story was pitched and everybody was like, dude, yes, sick. I cannot wait to read about this wild concept.

• 36:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  So Caesar salad, french fries, martini for dinner. We do it, but we can forget it in that context.

• 36:35Joe Flamm?

  We, we can forget, write an article about it. This is my point. We can forget the articles that need to be written about like super obvious things. That's my point. Dinner, I'm, I'm there. I've forked the dinner, forked that up. Any day of the week.

• 36:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Fork the dinner, forget the article.

• 36:50Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Come rip by the steakhouse and have a Caesar salad, french fries and a martini. I got you all day, every day. Like that's, I think it's awesome. I think it's a killer combo. I'd probably throw a smash burger in there too, but you know what I mean? I'm a, I'm a little bit of a, I'm a, I'm a little bit more of a Midwestern build than you, Adrian.

• 37:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, you know, I've been in New York for a long time now.

• 37:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So, you know, I, I would probably throw that one out there for size.

• 37:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  Our next segment, ooh, this is where we're going to get a little deep.

• 37:21Joe Flamm?

  This is what I'm looking forward to, especially as we bring guests on the show where this to me is like the good of it, the grit of it, of like what, you know, those little peaks of like what our industry is. And if you've ever worked in it, you know, uh, but if you haven't, you've probably maybe heard. But, uh, this is what we're called walk-in confession. Uh, and you know, really, you know, as you know, Adrian, like that's where you find everything out. You want to know what's going on in a restaurant? You go stand in that walk-in for five minutes and people will come in and they will lay it all out of the light in there. If you've never been in a restaurant quality walk-in, one of the main attributes of it is it's borderline soundproof.

• 38:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Joe Flamm?

  You could shoot a shotgun in there and no one would hear it. So it's a really good place to go. If you want to have a conversation that you want absolutely no one to hear, um, if you need to scream, if you need to cry, if you need to do whatever, the walk-in is always the safe space.

• 38:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  And in the midst of a hot ass kitchen where you're sweating and there's flames and there's fire all around you, you can go in there and cool off too. Literally, I remember going in the walk-in and seeing steam coming up off of my body because it was just so hot in the kitchen. And I'm like, I need to go cry and I need to go cool off. Hey, the walk-in serves both purposes.

• 38:39Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so I take it back for this one. Because I think there's always, you know, I think a lot of times too with like social media chefs cookbooks always, you know, you read and it's all pressed, right? You know, you get the details they want to give you. They give you the like, oh yeah, I was here and I killed it. I made all these great dishes and I was the best cook and all this. And it's like, but like, we all started out kind of sucking. And anybody who says otherwise is either a liar or a freak of nature. It's just that simple. Like at some point, you sucked and you didn't know things. And you were also wildly afraid to admit you didn't know things. So that's really, really where mine begins.

• 39:20Joe Flamm?

  So when I was like 19, I was a cook. And it was like my first like cook job that like it was before I went to culinary school and it was just kind of like a guy I knew delivered coffee to this place. So he got me a job there, you know, true Chicago fashion. And so I worked there for a while and there was like a bunch of little different things in there. And I'd worked pizzas, I'd worked sandwiches and then they had this, this walk station. And it was like two walks and like people would come up and they'd like, you know, they'd pick out their veggies, they put it in a little basket, they'd hand you the basket and then they pick a protein and they pick the sauce and they pick the rice. And you know, you, it was a pretty simple process, but it was cool.

• 40:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  And they're standing right in front of you.

• 40:02Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So you got to cook in front of people, which I thought was sick. Plus I was like 19, this place was in a mall. You'd be like, all the girls from Macy's came over to like go to the walk station. So it's like where you wanted to be.

• 40:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 40:15Joe Flamm?

  So one day whoever was supposed to work that walk station didn't show up. So like chef comes over and he's like, hey, he's like, do you know how to work? The walk station over there. I was like, I think I do, which I obviously had no idea.

• 40:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  And this was you just got a job at this place. It's not like you had worked at a place with a walk before.

• 40:32Joe Flamm?

  No, no, I've worked at a bar and grill in a southwest suburbs that had like a deck oven. We made pizzas out of a deep fryer and a flat top. And like, I wasn't really allowed to be back there, but I would go back there late night. Like if somebody called after the kitchen left and like make food. So I had no idea. You know what I mean? I had like seen a.

• 40:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  But you're like, yeah, I can work the walk station. Of course.

• 40:55Joe Flamm?

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Like there's no, there's no human more confident than a nineteen year old out of life. Uh, and so, cause like you're too dumb to not know. Like how stupid you are.

• 41:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, you don't even know what you don't know.

• 41:10Joe Flamm?

  Right. And you've just like haven't failed at enough things yet to be like afraid. And so. Guy's like walks me through. He's like, all right, pretty simple joke. Just, you know, he's get the veg basket goes, there's like a boiler. So you drop it in the boiler. So you boil the veg. He's like, turn on the walk, full heat. And if you've never worked at a walk station, it doesn't look like a regular burner. It's a jet burner, basically. You don't need it's, and it's a lever. It's a handle that goes like this, like it just flips it. You know, you're, you're full blast or you're off. And those things rip like five hundred degrees. And it's just like, it looks super cool. So I was like.

• 41:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, walk burners, it's like a bigger ring to accommodate the bottom of the walk itself. And it's like.

• 41:51Joe Flamm?

  You run.

• 41:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Five times the BTUs of a home oven burner.

• 41:55Joe Flamm?

  You run bigger gas pipes to it, like a regular gas pipes at an inch and a half and a walk burner gas pipe is you have to have at least three inches.

• 42:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Joe Flamm?

  So.

• 42:06Joe Flamm?

  He's like, super simple. Turn this thing out all the way. Walk gets hot. Put your oil in. Oil starts to smoke. Garlic, ginger, protein.

• 42:17Joe Flamm?

  Let the protein cook. Once the protein cooks, veg, sauce, over the rice they order. I was like, all day, baby, all day.

• 42:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  My cop is.

• 42:27Joe Flamm?

  This is 2005. I'm riding high. The White Sox are about to win the World Series, Adrian, right? So it's like, I am on an absolute tear. We are listening to Don't Stop Believing every night of the week. It is peak, peak Chicago.

• 42:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're like, what could go wrong?

• 42:41Joe Flamm?

  Nothing, nothing could go wrong. Bobby Jenks is on fire. Like, so.

• 42:47Joe Flamm?

  I'm like, you know, and I'm doing pretty good. I'm like, I got that system down. It's a pretty simple system. They were really good at that. I'm like ripping it. I'm going along. I'm making it for it. I'm chopping it up with people. They're like, what's your favorite? I'm like, oh, they're so good, blah, blah, whatever. I'm like, just killing the game. Rolling along. Finally, after a while, somebody comes in. It's like, hey, uh, I'm gonna do the tofu. And I was like, hmm, okay. I was like, sure. So did the thing.

• 43:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  You immediately started judging. I can tell.

• 43:13Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I was like, hmm, yeah, you're not from here.

• 43:18Joe Flamm?

  But, uh, so, again, this is 2005. It's like, she ordered tofu. I was like, oh, cool. Like, you live in California? Um, like, and so I ripped the pan.

• 43:29Joe Flamm?

  Oil, garlic, ginger, and like, they gave us all the proteins in like those little prepackaged bags. So I had, you know, like, whatever, 12 cubes of tofu in my little bag. So I just go and I dump it. I dump it.

• 43:44Joe Flamm?

  This thing goes off. Like, I mean, like, I remember getting home that night. I had birds inside my armpit that it like went up my chef coat. And just like, almost takes my eyebrows. Like, you know what I mean? Where you ever burn your nose hairs off where you can smell?

• 43:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  You'll be smelling that for a week.

• 44:00Joe Flamm?

  And then you're just going like this, you're like.

• 44:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. Get the singed edges of the eyebrows off and then.

• 44:07Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hope they all didn't burn.

• 44:09Joe Flamm?

  You know, like, it goes up and I'm like, whoa.

• 44:14Joe Flamm?

  They're like, this lady is also is like three feet behind me. She's like, oh, my God. And I'm like, oh, no, like, this is, this is fine. This is totally.

• 44:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Everything's fine.

• 44:21Joe Flamm?

  This is totally fine. Everything's fine. I just kind of like, you know, like, worked it, put it out. And I was like, all right, that went super unwell.

• 44:31Joe Flamm?

  Now.

• 44:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 44:33Joe Flamm?

  The, this is like the, the, the, the real hacky part of this as a young cook. Where it's like, instead of doing what you should do, it's like, obviously, I should have just asked one of the chefs. Be like, hey, man, like, I almost lit myself on fire today. What could I do tomorrow to not light myself on fire? Because like, that kinda sucked. Would be like a totally, you know, good response. But me being nineteen, at a young cook, of course, like my, you know, shithead response was. I was like, alright, I just gotta figure this out. I obviously cannot tell anyone about this ever. Because they're gonna like, throw me off the station, because I almost started a fire.

• 45:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 45:11Joe Flamm?

  So then, from there, what I would do, when they put me back out of that station, is if somebody came in and ordered tofu. It's like, I hadn't figured it out yet. So my system was, they'd order tofu, I would take the pan, rip that pan, throw the oil in, garlic, ginger. Take the tofu out, I'd take three steps back, and I would just be like. Launch it from across the room, it hit the pan, it would still light on fire.

• 45:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  You're such a jerk.

• 45:39Joe Flamm?

  Like, it was like, I was like a Benihana chef, just like, ah! Like, you know what I mean? And then would light on fire, and every time, the person would be like, oh my god. I'm like, yeah, no, it's cool, it's just like, just lights on fire.

• 45:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my god.

• 45:51Joe Flamm?

  It'll burn off.

• 45:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like, no, that's, that's exactly what's supposed to happen.

• 45:54Joe Flamm?

  Like, I was like ripping, sagging, yeah, like I was ripping saginakis in, uh, Greek town. You know what I mean? I'm like, I got your flaming cheese right here.

• 46:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh bah!

• 46:02Joe Flamm?

  Uh, so that's the whole time I worked that station, just how I cooked it. And I was like, you know, retrospect, I was obviously like, I did not serve a delicious bowl of tofu. For six months, it must have been so disgusting, like, all that burnt, gross oil, just like, carbony, disgusting flavor on there.

• 46:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like, when oil ignites like that, it changes the flavor. Everything will henceforth that it touches, taste really off, like, it'll taste burnt and like.

• 46:32Joe Flamm?

  Terrible, it's that carbon flavor.

• 46:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 46:35Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, it's also, it's like such a young cook thing, it's like, they light a pan on fire, they're like, put it out, they go to cook it again. And like, now I see it, and I'm like, what are you thinking? And then I remember, that I was the dude throwing tofu from four feet away from a walk, and lighting it on fire, and just going, so it works. Kind of like the flaming volcano of onions. You ever seen that?

• 46:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, the volcano onion. That's totally what's happening here.

• 46:59Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I thought I was on my hibachi ship.

• 47:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  So Joe, knowing what you know now, what would you have done? Would you change the order? Would you go?

• 47:07Joe Flamm?

  No, you just.

• 47:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  Rip and pan oil?

• 47:09Joe Flamm?

  I would still just rip the pan. You just gotta pull it off the heat. If you pull it off the heat and throw it in, then it'll cook out the water and not light on fire. Um, which is really the way to do it.

• 47:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  But when you have that heat still transferring into the wok, it's gonna ignite. But if you pull it off for a couple of seconds.

• 47:25Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, you'd be able to throw it down, throw it in with the veg and everything would be okay.

• 47:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's a good, that's a good cooking tip in general because I feel like I'm always telling people, they're like, what's the difference between restaurant cooking and home cooking? I'm like, the heat, like we get our pans really hot, but there is a point where your pan can be too hot. But what you should just do is take your pan off the heat. Just move it to a burner that's not on. You know, just move it somewhere else. Let it cool for a couple of seconds. If you feel like that oil is starting to get too smoky. Cause that's where you get that really acrid taste. So just pull it off the heat. Pan off. All you gotta do.

• 48:03Joe Flamm?

  Dump your oil, start over.

• 48:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Joe Flamm?

  All right, Age, give me, give me some of your, you, you, your dark deep secrets.

• 48:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, we're talking about me? I thought we were just talking about you today.

• 48:16Joe Flamm?

  Mm hmm. You're not getting off the hook.

• 48:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, there was a service in New York, the restaurant shall remain nameless. Where I was on, I was new on a station. I was on the hot apps line. New, oh, this was my first like hotline. I had worked at a restaurant in Florida. I had worked in some other places. But this was my first like hotline, real position, not like getting called over to learn something and help out. And I was like. Like, you know, you're just tense the whole time. And I was like, so I I was like getting my system down and I get really OCD about getting a system for things. And because that's how like consistency is the most important thing in a restaurant.

• 49:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  You have to make the dish taste the same every time. It has to be great every single time. So I'm just like so focused on what's going into the pan. That I wasn't exactly looking at the pan itself. So I pulled down a saute pan. Cause the dishwashers would put them up above the line. So I reach up to get a saute pan. And I noticed the bolts on the handle are a little loose. And I see like some glinty, I'm like, the metal feels like, but whatever, like, I gotta get this dish out. Chef is yelling at me, I need forty five seconds to the pass and this pickup takes like a minute and fifteen. So I'm like, okay, I just, I gotta go.

• 49:40Joe Flamm?

  Right, and you already told them it's only thirty seconds out.

• 49:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, oh yeah, thirty seconds, thirty seconds chef.

• 49:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  So I'm like, I'm rushing the dish, I'm not really paying attention to everything going on around. You know, that's one of those moments where I was so young and so inexperienced that I didn't know that I could say chef, I need a minute. I didn't know, I didn't feel confident enough to like.

• 50:04Joe Flamm?

  This is also, I think, I think for context, people have to understand, especially if like you're a cook now. It's like, we have cooks now that come in and I'm like, all right, hey, like this is how we're gonna set up for success today. Like, we're gonna, we're gonna make this work, we're gonna do good, you're gonna succeed, blah, blah, blah, blah. Everyone here has your back.

• 50:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's no talk I ever had was like that.

• 50:21Joe Flamm?

  No, it was like, I remember getting on a line, everybody was like, you're gonna go down in flames. This is gonna be the worst side of your life. Like, you, you suck and you shouldn't be at our line, like, we're gonna watch.

• 50:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, we're gonna watch you go down, we're not gonna step in and help, we're gonna watch you go down in flames because you need to learn. And they wouldn't even say, cause you need to learn, they're just like, it was just like hazing.

• 50:42Joe Flamm?

  Like Kevin Hart, like, you gonna learn today?

• 50:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right, right. I sure learned that day. I learned that like you need to pull up and pay attention to everything on your station. Not just the things you're responsible for, but even the things you're not responsible for. Because stuck in the bolt of that metal was a piece of Brillo pad from the dish pit.

• 51:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it dislodged itself while I was sauteing this crab.

• 51:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  And it went out to the table. Luckily, the diner saw it. As soon as they like, looked at the, but I like, I missed it. The chef at the pass missed it. Luckily, the guest saw it like within a couple of seconds of hitting the table, but I was, I got kicked off the line that night.

• 51:27Joe Flamm?

  Oh, oh, that's the worst.

• 51:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because actually, and then fast forward a couple of years later, the same thing happened at a two Michelin star restaurant in New York and the diner didn't see it. Ate the dish with a piece of brillo that was stuck in their food that nobody saw. And it scratched their esophagus and they sued the restaurant for millions of dollars.

• 51:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  So like I luckily like I got off because the guest caught it. But if that guest hadn't caught it.

• 51:55Joe Flamm?

  Bless yourself right then and there. Seven, twenty years ago, girl, I think you missed it. You're good.

• 52:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, it could have gone so wrong. But it's, yeah, it was crazy. So like, ever since then, I was just like, I'm not just responsible for the herbs I cut. I'm not just responsible for the crab that I picked, for the sauces I make. I'm responsible for everything around me that I put my hands on. And from then on, I was just like, oh my God, now my OCD is like really flaring up. Because I'm checking everything.

• 52:31Joe Flamm?

  When you'd see those like OGs on the line, like they have their pans. You know what I mean? Like if you worked like in any of those kitchens where you had like OG career line cooks, like they'd get, they would go back to dish and they would get their pans before service. And you'd be like, I don't know, be like, just all like pans. And then you'd like watch them cook and you're like, damn, they got all the good pans. Like they had all the perfectly flat ones, all the rinds were nice. Like they knew what the good pans were and you didn't even know they were good pans yet. You weren't even a point in your career where you knew.

• 53:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  They wouldn't just chuck their pans into the dish bin to get cleaned. They would have like a water bucket down there and they would wash them out. Or like wipe them out and keep their pans on their station all night.

• 53:13Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, because they're like, this is my stuff.

• 53:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Why do they do that? Why don't they just let them go through the dish pit? Oh my God. So that's, that's my walk in.

• 53:20Joe Flamm?

  That's brutal. That's brutal. Getting thrown off the line too. Man, you're lucky you didn't get sent for that, honestly.

• 53:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know, right? I mean, oh God. Oh, now I remember a couple that are good that we'll, we'll talk about, we'll talk about next time. But I think that, that's it for our first episode of Chef's Cut. And we will be back with a whole new episode next week, and we cannot wait to tell you who our guest is. But before we do, Joe, everybody who is fanning out over you and has followed you for years, where can they find you on social media?

• 53:55Joe Flamm?

  Uh, on social, you can find me on Instagram at Instaflam. And in real life, you can come see me at Il Cartelfo Rosemary or Boulevard Steakhouse.

• 54:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. Boulevard is the only one I haven't been to. I'll be there in June, but.

• 54:11Joe Flamm?

  Have you not been?

• 54:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  I haven't.

• 54:13Joe Flamm?

  Well, your sister's been.

• 54:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I know. My whole family's been.

• 54:16Joe Flamm?

  Your whole family's been. All your friends have been. So you're, you're kind of late on it. Uh, we'll get you back over there. Oh, yeah. You'll be there in a couple of weeks, actually.

• 54:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. Yeah, sure will be.

• 54:24Joe Flamm?

  All right, Adrian, if they want to find you, where can they find you on the internets?

• 54:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  On all of the socials. It's pretty much Chef Adrian Cheatham. I just keep it super consistent and super simple. My name is really long, but there's no way to shorten it.

• 54:37Joe Flamm?

  Are you, are you on TikTok? Are you a TikToker?

• 54:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm on TikTok, but I don't know if I've posted yet.

• 54:44Joe Flamm?

  I need a, I need a Adrian Steven TikTok dance.

• 54:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  I don't know if you'll ever get that. You might get a Adrian and my sister Jackie TikTok dance.

• 54:55Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.

• 54:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  We do all of our music video dances from like the 90s and 2000s.

• 55:00Joe Flamm?

  Let's, let's go. Let's go.

• 55:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Also, if you guys like the show, be sure to leave a review and most importantly, follow the podcast, The Chef's Cut, wherever you're listening, so that you don't miss a new episode whenever it drops and miss out on all this fun conversation.

• 55:17Joe Flamm?

  And don't forget to tell your friends about the podcast. Word of mouth is always the best for us, whether it's restaurants or podcasts. Let your friends know. Come check it out. Thanks for hanging out. Until next week. It's been The Chef's Cut.

• 55:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Life beyond the past.