Why You’re Lacking Charisma & How To Create It w/Vanessa Van Edwards EP 1231

Today’s guest is Vanessa Van Edwards, who is the Lead Investigator at Science of People and is the bestselling author of Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People. Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses, and trillion-dollar companies. She is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences around the world where her mission is to help introverts leverage their strengths, show high achievers how to activate their secret skills and teach awkward people to feel more confident. She’s written a new book called Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. In this episode we discuss:How to instantly create trust and reliability. What Vanessa learned from analyzing over 490 Shark Tank pitches. The difference between charisma and narcissism. The fascinating research about social cues and how to use them. And so much more! For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1231Get Vanessa's book: Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. Vanessa's Previous Episodes:www.lewishowes.com/105www.lewishowes.com/475 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 1,231 with bestselling author Vanessa Van Edwards. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:31Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back, my friend. I am pumped and excited about today's episode. Our guest today is Vanessa Van Edwards, who is the lead investigator at Science of People and is the bestselling author of Captivate, The Science of Succeeding with People. Vanessa works with entrepreneurs, growing businesses, and trillion-dollar companies. She is renowned for teaching science-backed people skills to audiences around the world, where her mission is to help introverts leverage their strengths, show high achievers how to activate their secret skills, and teach awkward people to feel more confident. She's written a new book called Cues,

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. And in this episode, we dive in deep on how to master this, all about how to instantly create trust and reliability, what Vanessa learned from analyzing over 490 Shark Tank pitches of what works and what doesn't work, the difference between charisma and narcissism, the fascinating research about social cues and how to use them, and so much more. This is the type of conversation that I nerd out on. I love this stuff. I love studying people, understanding people, what makes people tick, all that stuff. So if you love this as well, make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by this.

• 2:00Lewis Howes?

  LewisHowes.com/1231. Copy and paste that link, share it out to your friends over text or over social media or post it anywhere. And make sure to tag me and Vanessa Van Edwards as well over on Instagram Stories if you're posting over there. Big thank you to our fan of the week. This is from Patty Jolly, who said, I started listening to your podcast show at the beginning of January, and I have found myself listening to each podcast twice, writing all the information, buying books, and feeling super motivated. I'm so grateful for this podcast, and it is changing my life. Thank you. So Patty, big thank you for being a new subscriber, being a fan, leaving a review over on Apple Podcast.

• 2:44Lewis Howes?

  You are the fan of the week, and we appreciate you. We're grateful that you want to listen to each episode twice. I know there's a lot of information. Sometimes I go back and check out stuff a lot because there's so much I'm consuming. But big thank you. And if this is your first time here, or you have yet to subscribe or leave a review, then make sure to subscribe right now on Apple Podcast, leave a review. Be your chance to be shouted out as a fan of the week as well. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Vanessa Van Edwards.

• 3:16Lewis Howes?

  Well, welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. We've got Vanessa Van Edwards in the house. Good to see you. We are talking all things master the secret language of charismatic communication. I think the facial cues we give people really put off a lot of if we can trust someone, if we can't trust someone, you know, if someone's interested, if they're enrolled, if they're unenrolled, all these different things. For 20 years, I had four missing teeth. When I was, I guess I was 16 and a half, I got eight teeth removed, four wisdom, and then four more on the sides. For many years, 20 years of my life, I had these gaps, right? And so I'd always smirk kind of aside to kind of hide, to hide it.

• 3:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What?

• 3:54Lewis Howes?

  And I don't know if that helped me or hurt me. And you're like, no, it didn't. So I would smile big, but then I would kind of like half smirk sometimes.

• 4:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I've seen your smirk.

• 4:02Lewis Howes?

  And after, my book cover too, is kind of like just smiling, but it's a, it's a big smile, but it's not a showing the teeth smile. Is it better to smile without teeth or with teeth in order to enroll people in you as a human being to get anything you want in your life?

• 4:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What research found is that a real smile, whether it shows teeth or not, the own, the biggest difference is it has to reach up here.

• 4:26Lewis Howes?

  The eyes.

• 4:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The, the upper cheek muscles, actually. So those eye crinkles.

• 4:30Lewis Howes?

  I do that a lot, though. I feel like I squint a lot.

• 4:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah, you got, you got a little smizing, right? So that's actually the only cue we're looking for. So it actually does not matter. So if you have a profile picture, a dating profile picture, a LinkedIn profile picture, I either want you neutral, Or with eye crinkles. The worst is sort of that in-between. Now, I don't mind like a soft up mouth, right? You and I both have this on our book covers. A soft up mouth. But it has to engage those upper cheek muscles. What Dr. Barbara Wilde found is that when they showed pictures of people with the fake smile and a real smile, the real smile was contagious. So when people looked at the real smile, they themselves felt happier. When they looked at the fake smile, they felt no mood change.

• 5:13Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 5:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So the reason why that's important is I think that we think about like, oh, I want to show up, I want to be really my most confident self. But what we don't realize is that our cues are contagious.

• 5:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 5:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That if you show authentic happiness, you are more likely to infect happiness. Actually, there's one more face cue I want to talk about. So this is the cue that sort of started me on this crazy journey and it got me. I'm a recovering awkward person, as you know. So this gave me a lot of relief. Introvert, awkward person, social anxiety, all the good things. So this story gave me so much relief. What they found was if you are in a room and someone gives you a cue of social rejection.

• 5:49Lewis Howes?

  What does that look like?

• 5:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so social rejection, I roll, a sigh.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  Looking away.

• 5:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Looking, right, looking away, distancing behavior, when we pull our head back and like, when I angle my head back, you know I've just disengaged from you.

• 6:00Lewis Howes?

  Crossing arms and...

• 6:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Crossing arms, sudden, see sudden non-verbal rejection.

• 6:06Lewis Howes?

  Is this turning feet also?

• 6:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Turning, yes, we, oh, we can talk about feet. Okay, we can talk about feet.

• 6:11Lewis Howes?

  Hands and feet, so, you know this thing? I look at the hands and feet all the time. I can't remember if I got this from you years ago.

• 6:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is me.

• 6:18Lewis Howes?

  It's like looking at the hands and seeing are they in the pocket? Are they out of pocket?

• 6:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 6:23Lewis Howes?

  But go ahead, we'll get back to that.

• 6:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so social rejection cues, and you know this. If you're in a business meeting and you suddenly feel like, am I disliked? Ah, he's not, he doesn't like this, she doesn't like this. When we see a cue of social rejection, our field of vision increases.

• 6:37Lewis Howes?

  We see wider.

• 6:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We literally see wider. Our pupils dilate so we see more. The reason why that study was like a light bulb for me was our cues are affecting others physiology. Our physiology can change in a room in an instant. If we walk into a meeting and we feel not liked, if we feel rejected, if we feel like we're being judged, our own physiology responds. So if we're in a room and we're not feeling confident or in control and someone sends us a cue of rejection, one, you want to know what those are because it makes your field of vision bigger so you can see who else is sending me a cue, what's my escape route. That's literally what your body's trying to do. Ups your adrenaline, ups your cortisol. And no one can think well. Adrenaline, cortisol. That's why in a meeting, it can go downhill so quickly.

• 7:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're in a presentation, you prepare it all week.

• 7:24Lewis Howes?

  Ah, you're like, yeah.

• 7:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then you're like, oh, he just rolled his eyes. Oh, she just turned away. Oh, I just saw a weird foot movement. Uh huh. And then you lose your spot, you blank out, and the rest of the presentation goes badly. The good news is, is what Matthew Lieberman found, this is from UCLA. Once you label a cue, so if you say, that was an eye roll, that was a scoff of exasperation, that was a contempt smirk, the moment you label it, your amygdala calms down. They've proven that if they, when people are in FMRI machines and they show them a fearful face, so fearful face is when we widen the whites of our eyes and we raise our eyebrows up. If you're laying in an FMRI machine and you see fear, you will begin to feel afraid. Your amygdala begins to activate and your body goes, well, if he's afraid, I better be afraid.

• 8:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But the moment you say, in the, in the FMRI, that's just fear, your amygdala stops responding.

• 8:16Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 8:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I think I've had a really hard time finding confidence. It's been a long lifetime journey. The way that I've sort of backdoored into confidence is control. If I can control the cues that are being sent to me, if I can control the cues I'm sending to others. It's a secret backdoor into confidence.

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  How do you control someone else's cues?

• 8:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You label them and respond appropriately, so.

• 8:40Lewis Howes?

  So you can't control how they act towards you, but you can control how you react to it, how you interpret it, how you transition afterwards?

• 8:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, like you can, first by labeling it, you just controlled your own physiology. So if someone sends you a contempt, an eye roll, you just took control. You took control back of, nope, I see it, I spot it, I'm disengaging it.

• 9:00Lewis Howes?

  You know, in the vulnerability world, when you, you know, label the shame, when you speak about the shame and you bring it to the light, it becomes less scary. It doesn't stay stuck inside of you. So even just acknowledging it is a helpful tool to process shame or I guess.

• 9:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And social rejection.

• 9:16Lewis Howes?

  Social rejection.

• 9:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ah, it's the same, actually. So for vulnerability, yes, you're afraid, you acknowledge it, it makes it less scary. It's the same thing in social settings. Dates, professional situations, negotiates, interviews, the moment you say, okay, I just heard an exasperated tone of voice, or I just saw a lid flex. That's the one I want to talk about next.

• 9:33Lewis Howes?

  A what flex?

• 9:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know, I know.

• 9:34Lewis Howes?

  A lid flex?

• 9:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A lid flex.

• 9:36Lewis Howes?

  Is that an eyelid?

• 9:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, it is.

• 9:37Lewis Howes?

  Like a, like a, like a twitch or what?

• 9:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so here you ask, how do we control? Oh yeah, that's it, you just did it, okay. So you know Zoolander?

• 9:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 9:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know the blue steel?

• 9:47Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 9:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, that is actually a lid flex, right? So that's a, right, it's like, it's if you, if you're listening around a hardener, lower lids, then like, your lips, that's what blue steel is. The funny thing about this cue, it's ridiculous, I know you're like, where are you going with this?

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  No, it makes sense to me because it's like, prove me, like someone's doubting you.

• 10:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, you just got it, okay. So what's funny is, in fear, our eyes widen. So if you widen your eyes as wide as possible, so you can see the whites, you just, I can take in way more of my environment. When we're afraid, we want to see as much as possible. When we are trying to see details, universally across cultures, we have to lessen the light coming into our eyes, so we squint.

• 10:24Lewis Howes?

  To focus.

• 10:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We focus, so if you, like if you were to try to see that dot over there on the wall, you harden your lower lids. And that is because scientifically proven, when we harden our lower lids, it reduces the amount of light and we can see more details.

• 10:36Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 10:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I can see the details on that camera better when I lower lid flex.

• 10:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is why, if you open People Magazine's Sexiest Man Alive, on almost every page, along with a flexed bicep, are flexed lids. And that is because women find a flexed lid, oh, so attractive.

• 10:56Lewis Howes?

  When they.

• 10:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So attractive.

• 10:58Lewis Howes?

  So an open lid is not sexy?

• 11:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is it sexy?

• 11:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, because why? Women and men both want partners who are deeply scrutinizing, who are deeply looking at them. So if I'm sitting when talking to you and I go, "Oh, really? I just showed you." Wow, that was super interesting. In fact, when we flex our lids, we're going from just listening to thinking deeply.

• 11:22Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 11:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're literally trying to see something better. So if you're in a negotiation, on a date, or with a friend, and they go, "Really?", and they harden their lower lids, you are like, "Ooh, ding ding, I just hit something good." And so the other way that we control cues is, okay, let's say that you're, and this actually happened to me, so this is a story I share in the book. I was in a meeting with a very high-powered exec team, and if the presentation went well, they were going to invite me back for more presentations. So the stakes were very high. And it was a small group, and I was in a particular part of my presentation talking about chemicals. And I noticed an executive across the room flexed his lower lids at me. Kind of flexed his lower lids. He's looking at the slide, and I was like, "Okay, what's happening? He just went from listening to scrutinizing." And so I paused with a small group, and I said, "All good, any questions?"

• 12:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I literally looked right at him, and I opened up my palms, and I said, "Any questions?" So this is the universal signal for openness. It literally means, "I want to receive."

• 12:15Lewis Howes?

  I'll share anything you are.

• 12:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. It's literally like, "Let me receive, let me be open to you." And he went, "Yeah, you know, I do have a question." And at the time, I was teaching about oxytocin. Oxytocin, I know you talk about it a lot on the show, the chemical of connection and bonding. He goes, "I don't understand something. Isn't oxytocin what they give women to induce labor?" And I'm like, "You are right, sir. They do give oxytocin, and that's because it's so powerful that it can induce labor."

• 12:43Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 12:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But in our position, it's for social bonding. It was such a good teaching moment because he immediately felt heard. And I know that if I hadn't addressed that concern right then and there, I would have lost him. He would have been like, "What?", he would have been stuck on that one slide. And afterwards, he said to me, "You know, I really feel like you were teaching to us."

• 13:01Lewis Howes?

  Teaching to me.

• 13:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Literally teaching to him. And so I think the other way that we can control the cues is we spot it, and then we say, "How can I honor it?" Like, that's the gift that we can give people, is I can be sitting with someone and say, "I want to listen to you so deeply." I want to listen to your words. I want to watch your facial expressions. I want to listen to your normal. I want to even listen to your voice tone. I mean, we haven't even talked about vocal power, which here is incredibly important. And not only do I want to spot that, I want to respond in a way that you may, you feel the most heard by me. So it's spotting and honoring.

• 13:34Lewis Howes?

  And by doing that, if you're in a presentation, whether you actually acknowledge the person or not, are you just saying that'll bring you back to a more centered place? So you can continue on the presentation?

• 13:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. It makes you feel in control of the narrative. Makes you feel in control of, and like even for introverts, right? Like introverts, it's much harder for us to share a lot of verbal content. So for us, I want to give you more control over the nonverbal, so that when you do speak, it's more powerful, right? So if you're an introvert and you want to make sure you are reading the room really quickly, so you know exactly when to say your point, so it's most heard and most valued, that gives you confidence because you're not guessing.

• 14:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 14:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't like the guesswork.

• 14:11Lewis Howes?

  No, I don't either.

• 14:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know.

• 14:13Lewis Howes?

  You see a lot of these videos online talking about how charismatic someone is based on the way they smile, their eyes, the tilt of the chin, or all these different things. Is it important to be charismatic? Let's talk about that first.

• 14:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 14:27Lewis Howes?

  Is it valuable and more important to be charismatic versus less charismatic? Less...

• 14:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  To the point.

• 14:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, credible or competent.

• 14:36Lewis Howes?

  To the point or neutral energy? I mean, what's more valuable in society in accomplishing goals and getting what you want? Very charismatic or neutral?

• 14:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Neutral. Okay, so this is the biggest mistake, I think, facing really, really smart people. I think really, really smart people, and this is most of my students, they're like off-the-charts smart, creative, brilliant. They make the mistake of thinking, if I have enough book smarts, if I have enough technology smarts, I don't need the people smarts. Now, here's what research from Princeton University found.

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  I'm so excited for this. Because I already know what you're going to say in a sense, yeah.

• 15:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so this study completely changed my work and changed my life. It was done by Dr. Susan Fisk in 2002. And since then, they've been able to replicate it and build on it and build on it. So this is very solid research. What she found, very highly charismatic people have to have the perfect blend of two traits. And this is where it's really, this is why highly charismatic people are so unique. This is why we love them so much. To be highly charismatic, to be compelling, to be captivating, you must have a perfect blend of warmth and competence. We talked about this the very, very first time we met, but since then, so much more has come out about it. Very, very smart people make the mistake of showing up as all competent.

• 15:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They try to blow you away with their numbers and their facts and their stats and their data, but they're seen as cold.

• 15:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They're seen as intimidating. On the other side, you have people who are highly warm. They have competence, but there's not a balance. They show up as highly likable, highly friendly, but they're interrupted. They're told that they're not being taken seriously.

• 16:11Lewis Howes?

  They're not credible.

• 16:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. People forget having met them before. And so I think that most people problems, I mean, I'm going to say all people problems. All people problems stem from an imbalance between your warmth and competence. And so not only do I think that charisma is essential for being successful, I actually think it's the only way that people will be open to your competence.

• 16:34Lewis Howes?

  So you could be all the book smarts in the world. You could have the highest IQ and remember everything on any test, or you could be an encyclopedia of wisdom and information. But what I'm hearing you say, if you don't have charisma, at least some of it, then people won't take you seriously, or they won't care as much, or they won't be as engaged?

• 16:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's not just engaged. There's two questions that humans ask themselves about the person they're with. And this happens immediately in every interaction. By the way, video too. We forget that this is not just in person. This is happening the moment you pop on video. It's happening the moment someone opens your LinkedIn profile. I did a whole bunch of research on LinkedIn profiles specifically because that's where a lot of our first impressions happen. Okay. When people see your LinkedIn profile, when people see you on video, on Zoom, the first question they ask themselves, and it is chronological. The first question they ask is, can I trust you? Basic instinct, are you going to be my ally or my enemy? Can I trust you? The very second question they ask is can I rely on you?

• 17:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So when you're in a meeting, on a date, in a call, in a pitch, a negotiation, on LinkedIn, the two signals that you want to cue people with as quickly as possible is yes, you can trust me and yes, you can rely on me. The problem is, is that most professionals right now are going mute. So I don't know if you've noticed this, but it feels like in the last five or 10 years, we've gone towards ambivalence. You know, we've gone towards I'm not going to show anything. I'm going to be as professional and sterile as possible. And so we've taken out cues from all these assets and then people have a really hard time trusting us. They have a really hard time listening to us. We wonder why people are slow to reply to our emails. It's because we're not cuing enough. We have to have hundreds of cues to answer those two questions.

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So how do we create more trust and reliability instantly?

• 18:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, okay. So here, let's talk about trust first because it is chronological. We have to trust someone to rely on them. That's why starting with your competence doesn't always work. So trust. So the very first thing is a weird one. It's a really weird one that I'm going to talk about first.

• 18:36Lewis Howes?

  So you don't have to be competent to be trusted?

• 18:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  To be charismatic, you have to be competent and trustworthy.

• 18:41Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 18:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? So we want that perfect balance, right? You're trying to-

• 18:46Lewis Howes?

  You're smart enough and you're warm and likable.

• 18:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, okay, okay. So like, let's look at this cover. So really, really successful book covers, just like really successful LinkedIn profile pictures, very quickly signal both trust and competence, right? They both signal both these same time, okay? So let's talk about the first one, which is space. Space zones, okay? So, sorry, I'll give it back to you. I took it away.

• 19:07Lewis Howes?

  Space zones?

• 19:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Space zone.

• 19:08Lewis Howes?

  What is a space zone?

• 19:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're going to talk about the distance between people. So the distance between my nose and the camera lens. You can't see it, but in this photo shoot, I made sure that the distance between my space and the camera lens was a certain space.

• 19:20Lewis Howes?

  How far?

• 19:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I wanted to be in what's called the social zone. Okay, so this is not made up by me. This is actually, research is based, there's four zones for people. The intimate zone, the personal zone, the social zone, the public zone. Remember that Seinfeld episode you ever saw of close talking?

• 19:39Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 19:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ever had this where someone walks up like right into your face and like

• 19:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 19:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Talks into your mouth?

• 19:44Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 19:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so that's called close talking and that is the first big rule.

• 19:48Lewis Howes?

  Intimate zone.

• 19:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Intimate zone.

• 19:50Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to be there.

• 19:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You don't want to be there unless you're about to get intimate.

• 19:52Lewis Howes?

  Unless you like your friends or you know each other and you're like, that's what you do.

• 19:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Louis, do you talk six inches away from your friend?

• 19:58Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's too close. No, no, that's like your girlfriend. Yeah, your partner. Got you. Okay.

• 20:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so here's what happens.

• 20:02Lewis Howes?

  This is intimate zone, six inches.

• 20:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Zero to 18 inches apart is intimate zone. Okay, so here's what happens. This is the biggest mistake I'm seeing right now is we're all on video call all the time.

• 20:11Lewis Howes?

  Taking photos like this, selfie like.

• 20:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 20:13Lewis Howes?

  What does that do when you're projecting a video or a photo of that close?

• 20:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It is literally saying, I want to get close really, really fast. And so if you have someone who's super high warmth, they're like, yes, vulnerability, intimacy, and you're going to attract those kind of people. But if you have someone who's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, take a minute, they are, they are turned off. So what's happening is on video calls, you hop on FaceTime, you hop on video or on Zoom, and people are like right up in their camera.

• 20:40Lewis Howes?

  It's, yeah.

• 20:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, their, their nose and their camera are, are 10 inches apart and so someone's like, whoa.

• 20:45Lewis Howes?

  It's too close, yeah.

• 20:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's too close.

• 20:47Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 20:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that's the first one, is you want to respect the space zones. The, the sweet spot is a foot and a half to three or four feet away. That's, that's that social zone. That's where we're making eye contact. If I wanted to reach out and high five you, I could. We're still respecting each other's space. So for those, one is when you're on video, in your photos, that, if you want to have that balance, you want to be 18 inches to about three or four feet away.

• 21:11Lewis Howes?

  Okay, so social zone is 18 to three feet?

• 21:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Mm-hmm, yeah. And the personal zone, by the way, is still good, but that's a little bit farther away. Right, so that's, you're just starting to get to know each other. When you see someone across the room or boardroom or networking event, they're usually about four to seven feet away, which is the next zone, which is the personal zone. And then you have the public zone, which is obviously from far away. What we like in human behavior is we like someone to come towards us slowly. That's one of the reasons I think we're so burnt out on video. You know, we, we have these back to back to back video calls and we wonder, why are we so tired? I'm not even in person. The reason is because it's cueing us in ways that are not natural. In person, I walk into a room, right? Like, I walked into the office today and you were waiting. I was like, hi, and then we hugged. That was the, that's the way humans like, right? It's like this from public.

• 21:59Lewis Howes?

  It's not like you open the door and I'm right there standing in your face.

• 22:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That would have been a lot.

• 22:03Lewis Howes?

  I was a few feet back.

• 22:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You were a few feet back. It was perfect, right? So like, that's natural. But on video, it's like, whoop, we're here. And that's why we can get so fatigued is because the cues are unnatural. Which actually leads me to the second kind of trust cue that's important.

• 22:16Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 22:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is when we can't see someone's hands, our brain has a really hard time trusting someone.

• 22:22Lewis Howes?

  So funny. I think ever since that interview, I'm always keeping my hands out.

• 22:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Lewis Howes?

  I don't think I was keeping my hands in before, but I think I'm just more aware of it when I'm walking by someone who might be a stranger. I just have my hands out and relaxed and loose. But my, you know, I'm not like tighter tense and I'm not like hiding them or anything. It's just, yeah, just walking normal and say, hey, how's it going? You know, even do like a little wave if you had just to show.

• 22:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's super charismatic.

• 22:45Lewis Howes?

  Hey, good to see you.

• 22:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it, that's it. So when we, so I love Shark Tank. Do you know that show?

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, I know you had.

• 22:50Lewis Howes?

  I love it Friday nights. Shark Tank.

• 22:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Shark Tank. So I wanted to know, watching Shark Tank, was there patterns between the least successful pitches?

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 22:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And the most successful pitches?

• 22:59Lewis Howes?

  This is cool.

• 22:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so my team, I love my team. Thank you to my team.

• 23:03Lewis Howes?

  Not, not on just based on like what people said, but how they said things.

• 23:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Everything, everything. So we analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches.

• 23:10Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 23:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Lewis Howes?

  What were the main things you saw? And those successful and those not?

• 23:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so thank you to Jose Pena for this research. 495 Shark Tank pitches, literally hundreds of hours of Shark Tank. Coding every variable we could think of. Entrance, first impression, verbal, eye contact, smiling, interactivity, math. I mean, we were looking at everything.

• 23:28Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 23:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. One of the biggest differences between the least successful pitches and the most successful pitches was what you just did.

• 23:36Lewis Howes?

  Hands.

• 23:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. So when you walked down that Shark Tank hallway, that is beautiful, right? That's exactly what we were talking about, space, right? Public to personal to social to intimate. So it's a nice warm up. The best pitchers, when they were all the way in the public zone, signaled, hey, Sharks.

• 23:52Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 23:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they'd walk into the room, they'd take their place on the carpet and they'd go, good morning Sharks. Or, hey Kevin. Mark, we'd love to have a deal with you. They would greet with some kind of hand gesture. The least successful pitchers walked in with, I think, they thought they were being humble, but it actually reduced trust. They hid their hands, either in fists, behind their backs, in their pockets, or holding a prop. Sometimes accidentally, they hid their hands, and they didn't hand greet. That makes it really hard for someone to say, "I can trust you." And that is a primitive part of our brain, that when we can't see someone's hands, like if I were to, you know, do this entire interview with my hands behind my back.

• 24:29Lewis Howes?

  What's she doing back there?

• 24:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What's she doing? What are her hands doing? And what's interesting is Susan Gold-Rumetto researches gesture. She spent her entire academic career researching gesture. And she found that gestures carry more weight than words. So if a pitcher, a Shark Tank pitcher, were to go on and say, "Today I have a really big idea." It's really big, and I hold my hands up like it's really big. It's really small. You're like, "No way, it looks small, Vanessa, it looks so small, it's not big at all." But if I were to say, "I have three, three big ideas," and hold up five, you're actually more likely to believe my fingers. So the reason why this is important is because gestures help lower cognitive load.

• 25:10Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 25:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  When I use gesture, I'm more fluent. I'm able to be more competent. I'm able to underline my words, and able to say, "This is a really important point. Can I give it to you?"

• 25:20Lewis Howes?

  Hand gestures, body gestures, facial gestures, hair gestures.

• 25:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hand gestures, hand gestures specifically.

• 25:27Lewis Howes?

  Are key.

• 25:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They are like our body language highlighter. That's how I want to think about them.

• 25:33Lewis Howes?

  What happens if we don't? What's this, ah, I'm just kind of socially awkward. I like keeping my hands down the whole time when I'm communicating. What happens if we don't use our hand gestures at all in a conversation, in a pitch, whatever?

• 25:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Two things. One is it's harder for you to process. They've literally found that-

• 25:49Lewis Howes?

  If the person's speaking, it's harder to process.

• 25:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Correct. It's going to be harder for you to get your confidence, because gestures are a way that we underline or highlight our words. And so if you are inhibiting your own gestures, you will have a hard time explaining things. They actually did a study where they had people explain two versions of a story. Notice two, two versions of the story. One, they could use their hands, and one, they couldn't. The one where they could use their hands, they had less pauses, they spoke more quickly, they used bigger words.

• 26:15Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The one where they just couldn't, their hands were just underneath their legs.

• 26:18Lewis Howes?

  You know what's interesting? I was just reading some intros for the podcast right before you came in. I had another interview this morning and I did podcast intros and ads. And I used my hands in order to do it because I feel like it's coming across as like I'm really engaging.

• 26:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes.

• 26:34Lewis Howes?

  And I remember when I was reading my first audiobook.

• 26:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Lewis Howes?

  The School of Greatness. I tried to read it like just kind of like with my hands down for a while and I was like, I can't read.

• 26:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You can't read.

• 26:43Lewis Howes?

  Forgotten how to read my own words.

• 26:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh.

• 26:46Lewis Howes?

  Being like dyslexic growing up anyways is, I'm a little slower when I read in general. But when I started, I'd be like, okay, I just need to get in this with my body, my hands. I felt more confident. I felt like I could flow. I wasn't messing up as much. I wasn't having to stop and restart as much. It was powerful.

• 27:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, okay, that's an incredible story about gesture because if you watch the best like cartoon voiceover folks, they are using their-

• 27:09Lewis Howes?

  Animated, right?

• 27:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, they are using their whole bodies.

• 27:12Lewis Howes?

  They're in a room by themselves, like recording on a mic, right? But they're like, la.

• 27:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just did the same thing, yes. Yeah, that's what they're doing. That's not how I read my audio.

• 27:20Lewis Howes?

  Probably audio, yeah.

• 27:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But like Susan Goldwyn Meadows' research is called Hearing Gesture. And that is because I am using my hands right now, not only for people watching, but also for my folks who are listening. Because I know that the more I use my gestures, the more charisma I have vocally, and I would love to talk about vocal charisma.

• 27:37Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 27:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that helps me, but it also helps you. So anyone who's watching, you're getting so much information. They say 12.5 times more information from our gestures.

• 27:48Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 27:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 27:49Lewis Howes?

  Even when you can't see it?

• 27:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Uh, no, you have to be able to see it. We can hear charisma, but if someone can see our gestures, it adds more weight to what I'm saying. So when I say weight, I'm like, it's heavy. Look how heavy that is, right? But if I were to be like, heavy. It's so heavy. And I kind of show it away. You're like, no, it's not heavy.

• 28:08Lewis Howes?

  Feel.

• 28:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You can feel it.

• 28:09Lewis Howes?

  The emphasis of the words.

• 28:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, so it's like a highlighter. Now, I have to have a caveat here because I've created a problem in the past.

• 28:16Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 28:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I love a gesture, but I don't like jazz hands.

• 28:20Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 28:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? So gestures are great.

• 28:22Lewis Howes?

  Hey, good to see you.

• 28:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hey, hey, Louis.

• 28:24Lewis Howes?

  This is not credible or trustworthy. You're like, this is a weirdo over here.

• 28:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I created a problem where I had people who were like entering their Zoom meetings and they were like, hello Vanessa. And I was like, oh, no.

• 28:34Lewis Howes?

  Don't do that.

• 28:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, no, no. So it's like a highlighter, right? You wouldn't want to highlight the whole page. You just want to highlight the concepts that matter.

• 28:42Lewis Howes?

  So let's go back to hands for a second because you said there were 400 videos. I think you guys researched on Shark Tank.

• 28:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  495 pitches.

• 28:50Lewis Howes?

  And one of the main factors was waving as you were walking in or as you were getting into.

• 28:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Planting.

• 28:56Lewis Howes?

  Planting.

• 28:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 28:57Lewis Howes?

  Not all the way back like waving.

• 28:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Some of them did.

• 28:59Lewis Howes?

  But also, once you sat there and said, hey.

• 29:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hey, morning.

• 29:02Lewis Howes?

  Sharks.

• 29:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Hey, sharks, good morning. Happy to be here, even this, happy to be here, like an open palm gesture.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Okay, what are a few other things that you noticed?

• 29:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, yes, okay, so we love gestures. And by the way, this is super easy on a video call in person. Hey, nice to see you. Good morning. The biggest mistake we make, someone walks in and we go, hey, we give them a nod.

• 29:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 29:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, give them a hand. You like them enough to give them a hand, right? So that's really easy. It's like every YouTube video, I'm like, hey, friends. That's literally how I start every video. Okay, that's the first thing. So the second thing is where things get more interesting. So remember that these sharks were in pitch after pitch after pitch.

• 29:37Lewis Howes?

  They're tired.

• 29:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They're so tired. They are so tired.

• 29:40Lewis Howes?

  I've been on set there. I've seen like the whole day, it's just like, it's a lot.

• 29:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a grind.

• 29:45Lewis Howes?

  It's a grind.

• 29:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so the most successful pitches, the next thing we found, this was very, very clear, is that the more that the pitchers could spark dopamine, the more likely they were to get a deal. Now, dopamine is a very complicated chemical, so just for our purposes.

• 29:59Lewis Howes?

  Food. Eating something, giving them like, oh, try my-

• 30:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes, yes. I was like, food.

• 30:06Lewis Howes?

  And they're like, eat it, like taste testing, like try, like opening something.

• 30:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Try it, taste it, smell it, lick it, touch it, feel it, wear it, play it. Any of those, any of those senses. We love. So when we are doing something that's different, that's tactile, so yeah, touch, smell, taste, wear, play, do, try. That was gonna wake the sharks up. Dopamine is a little bit, it's a very complicated chemical, but I want to talk about it a little differently. It does feel good, right? So if they were to say to the sharks, sharks, today I have a gift for you. The brain goes, ooh, a gift, gift, a gift, a gift.

• 30:39Lewis Howes?

  Oh, give me something.

• 30:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Gift, gift, gift, gift. Right? Dopamine is like that feeling of, I want it, I want it, I want it. It's a, it's a excitement, but it's also motivation. So what they've found is that when people have a lot of dopamine, they are more motivated to do things. They are more motivated to figure out a deal. They are more motivated to ask questions. So when a pitcher went in and not only had some kind of an interactivity, some kind of a surprise for them, and some of it, sometimes it was a surprise. And they would literally say, and guess what, sharks?

• 31:10Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 31:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What? Right? We wanna know what that is because we're like, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. So it doesn't have to be like, you don't have to walk in every meeting and hand out and like throw, throw out Snickers bars.

• 31:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Love a Snickers bar and that will work really well. That'll work. It will work every time, but it's also verbal surprise. So it's also saying, today I have something really special to share, right?

• 31:31Lewis Howes?

  Anticipation.

• 31:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Anticipation. It doesn't even have to be something major. It can be throwing in those little elements of surprise that people can look forward to. And here's the biggest one. So this is research that blew my mind. It changed the way that I write emails. So if you write a lot of emails, this study is for you. So I'm gonna break it down. It's kind of a complicated study. So here's what they did. So researchers had participants come into their lab and do like a little quiz, like a little math test. One group of participants read a set of directions that was very simple. Please take the following quiz, take your time, use a pencil, tell us when you're done. Very simple set of directions. The other participants got the same set of directions, but they sprinkled in a couple of achievement oriented words.

• 32:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So achievement oriented words are words like win, succeed, master, greatness. Okay? Those are achievement oriented words. There's a reason why this is so, so powerful. In the directions, they would say something like, please master all these questions. Take as much as much time as you can to win the right answer. Right. So they just sprinkled in a couple of these words, two or three of these words. They found that participants who had the achievement oriented words performed better. They actually got more answers correct.

• 32:48Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 32:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, this is incredible. If you're a manager or a boss, or you're working with people and you want them to perform at their best, just a couple of word swaps can help set them up for success. The second thing they found is that it also doubled, doubled participants' desire to keep working.

• 33:05Lewis Howes?

  If they could win, succeed, achieve.

• 33:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They were like, they worked on it longer, they worked on it harder, and they enjoyed it more. And the last one is, is that reading achievement oriented words can change our own dopamine and testosterone.

• 33:19Lewis Howes?

  That's fascinating. You know, it's interesting because for years in high school and college, I had all, there was this store called Succession, something it was called. I don't know if you remember this. It was like a motivational inspirational store that had like, I don't know, a poster of like an ego soaring with a quote, right?

• 33:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Sounds like my office.

• 33:35Lewis Howes?

  Like something was just like, it was like Ted Lasso, you know, store. It was just like, believe in yourself with like this.

• 33:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Where is this store? I want it. Okay.

• 33:43Lewis Howes?

  I think it's called Successions. I can't, I can't remember the name of it. I don't even know if it's around anymore. But my dad bought me a lot of stuff and I had all this sports type of inspirational quotes and, you know, you know, Rocky posters and all these things of just people achieving. And it, and I would stare in this, like these walls and I should be like, I want to be that. Let me go take the actions every morning to work a little bit harder to reach the goals. And I was just consumed in a success, you know, word.

• 34:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You were literally, yeah, you were literally priming yourself with those cues. Another study, I promise I won't do too many more. They put a picture of an athlete winning a race on top of telemarketers' scripts. The people who had the picture of the athlete winning

• 34:26Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 34:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  earned more money.

• 34:28Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 34:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 34:29Lewis Howes?

  Like just in front of them, you're like.

• 34:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Literally a printed picture on their script.

• 34:34Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 34:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So why I share this is because we do not realize that we are cueing people incorrectly or we are missing opportunities in every single email that we send. So if you send an email out to your team on Monday morning, "Hey, everyone, today is going to be a busy day. We have a lot of challenges. Let's make sure we're not late." Research has found that when people read words like busy, challenge, or late, it literally primes them to be busier and later and more challenged. You are literally making it harder for them to help you. So if instead you think about, and this is a challenge, I would love to, if you're brave enough to take it,

• 35:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  open up your email sent folder and pull up five emails that you've sent to important people. Boss, partner, colleague, whatever, client. I want you to print those emails, and I want you to count the number of priming words you use.

• 35:30Lewis Howes?

  Good or bad?

• 35:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And even more. Are they warm or are they competent? So this is where the next level happens.

• 35:38Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, give it to me.

• 35:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Highly charismatic people prime others with warmth and competence.

• 35:44Lewis Howes?

  This is what I was gonna say is one of the spark dopamine. A simple compliment or acknowledgement sparks dopamine from my experience, just by seeing someone and acknowledging something you appreciate about them, or you like about them, or great shoes, or whatever it is, I'm gonna sure. You've got a great smile today, you've got good energy today. That sparks dopamine, right?

• 36:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, 100%. Actually, this leads me to my next, my next third point, my Shark Tank point. We also noticed that when pitchers specifically acknowledged things from the Sharks, and specific Sharks, they were more likely to get a deal from that Shark.

• 36:16Lewis Howes?

  I really like this thing about you, you did something amazing.

• 36:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Lori, I've been so looking forward to working with you. Robert, I love all your deals with all those athletes. Mark, I've been a huge fan of yours for years. Or this was, this was the winning phrase. In a pitch, if we heard this phrase, it was a high likelihood that someone was gonna get a deal, which is, "You remind me of myself."

• 36:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That could have been one of the sharks, that could have been one of the entrepreneurs. But the biggest compliment we can give someone is, you remind me of me, you're my role model. I put you in, so this is what we're talking about is kind of the next level here is I think that, yes, I want you to be your most charismatic self. I want everyone, hopefully who's listening, to be inspired to be their warmest, most competent self. But what a bigger gift, what a better way to be great, to gift other people to be their warmest and most competent self. So that when you're sending an email and you say, hey, I'm introing Sarah, or we have Sarah on the call, or here's that quick email intro I promised to Sarah, no priming words.

• 37:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What if instead, you thought, what's the warmest and most competent thing about both Sarah and the person I'm introducing to? And you say, hey, I'd love you to meet Sarah, she's been leading our marketing team for 10 years, we are so lucky to have her, she's a gem. Lucky, gem, leader. That is the perfect balance of warmth and competence, and you are gifting that to both Sarah, the person you're trying to, and yourself. And so I think, I think our words are gifts, and this doesn't have to be every email, but in your most important emails that you, that audit that you send, count how many warm words are you using? So warm words are words that trigger connection, trust, words that make you feel the warm and fuzzies, they're very oxytocin words.

• 38:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Count the number of competent words, efficient, productive, brainstorm, leverage, lead, streamline. Those are all great competence words. A funny note here is emojis.

• 38:13Lewis Howes?

  Are they good or bad?

• 38:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Highly warm.

• 38:15Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Not good or bad.

• 38:17Lewis Howes?

  You can have likability, connection.

• 38:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  High warmth, right? So emojis and exclamation points count as one warm word. So if you have someone, and this happens a lot, where people send a highly warm email to an important person. Hi friend. Friend, warm word, exclamation point, two warm words. I loved talking to you yesterday, three warm words. It was so exciting to catch up. Exciting, catch up, five warm words. Heart emoji, heart, smiley face. Now we're at seven warm words and we're one sentence in, right? They wonder why they're not taken seriously. They're one, they wonder why they didn't get a follow-up interview. They wonder why that person takes four days to reply. It's because it's too much warmth. You have to balance that with the competence.

• 39:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I want you to count and see what kind of signals are you sending to the people who matter to you?

• 39:08Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 39:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Do you want to?

• 39:09Lewis Howes?

  You know, you're bringing up something I used to do years ago when no one knew who I was. I was just getting started, 2007, 2008. I used LinkedIn as a tool to create connection with people that were, you know, successful business leaders and people that had done things that I wanted to do in the future, right? And for a while, none of them would reply to me because I started off saying like, "Hey, I'm just getting started, I'm brand new and I'm looking for some advice, can you help me?" Those types of-

• 39:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, warm, warm, warm, warm, warm.

• 39:38Lewis Howes?

  Languages, right?

• 39:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, all those words you just said are all warm.

• 39:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I started switching it and getting a reply almost every time from anyone. Like anyone I'd reach out to, I was like, "They're gonna reply to this." And I started doing a few things. In the first sentence, I would just try to find, you know, spark dopamine essentially is what I was doing. I was looking for a mutual connection we have and I'd speak about the mutual connection.

• 40:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Mutual connection is highly competent. It's saying, "You know this person, I know them too, I'm in the know." Trust and warmth. Warm than competent.

• 40:07Lewis Howes?

  This person likes me, if you like them, yeah, trust.

• 40:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Perfect balance, yeah.

• 40:11Lewis Howes?

  I didn't even know that and I was just doing it, right? And it was working, I was like, "Okay, let me keep doing this. Let me find someone that we know in common." And I would always try to have a conversation to get some intel on them. Can you tell me something about so-and-so? And I would speak about that information and I would speak into them. I would also look for a couple other- Areas of interest that we have in common. And I would try to have three different things in common in the first sentence or two.

• 40:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Wow.

• 40:35Lewis Howes?

  You know, something that they did that I'd experienced before, or a place they're from, or whatever. Some mutual interest.

• 40:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Warmth and competence.

• 40:43Lewis Howes?

  Maybe that's competence, maybe, or it's both.

• 40:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Both, it's beautifully both, yeah.

• 40:47Lewis Howes?

  So I would do that, and then I would just add, and I would say something like, "I'm really inspired by what you created. I'd love to learn your story of success."

• 40:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ooh, wait, wait, say it again, say it again.

• 40:56Lewis Howes?

  "I'm really inspired by what you've created. I'd love to learn your story of success."

• 41:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, man, that just gave me the chills.

• 41:03Lewis Howes?

  That's essentially what I did almost every email.

• 41:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That sentence, can we just like talk about it? So that sentence is the perfect blend of warmth and competence.

• 41:11Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 41:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? You have love, you have learn, you have success. And so that didn't take a lot of words. It's not like you were writing them a six paragraph email. But it's so much better than, "Let me know if you have any questions."

• 41:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or, "Can I pick your brain for coffee?"

• 41:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 41:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, so I think what we have to do is, there are hidden opportunities waiting for you in your texts, in your emails, in your profiles, if you choose to take them.

• 41:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And all it takes is a couple of word swaps. Like, I'm not talking about fifteen, in that direction sheet, they sprinkled in like two or three words, "win." Even reading the word "win" makes the other person think more like a winner.

• 41:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What a gift to give.

• 41:50Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. The quote that I heard in high school from Roosevelt is, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." Saved my life, literally.

• 42:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's warmth and competence right there.

• 42:02Lewis Howes?

  Because I didn't feel competent my entire school life, right? In school, I was at the bottom of my class. I just graded poorly, which confirmed like I'm not smart enough, or like I'll never be able to be as intelligent as my classmates or anyone in the world.

• 42:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 42:17Lewis Howes?

  So why would anyone like me or trust me because I didn't feel competent? Then when I heard that quote, I go, I have a chance. Like, I can build competence in another area of life. I can be emotionally intelligent and I can show people how much I care. And by doing that, that's been pretty much my whole life.

• 42:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Everyone who's listening, I hope what this shows you is that caring about someone, there's multiple ways to do that. Yes, it's emotionally intelligent, but it's also honoring someone's cues or gifting them the right cues.

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 42:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  When you make someone feel more like a winner, what a gift you just gave them.

• 42:53Lewis Howes?

  Huge gift. You're putting confidence into them. You're speaking joy, confidence into that person.

• 42:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, you're literally gifting them the chemical dopamine so that they themselves have more motivation.

• 43:04Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 43:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And don't we all need more motivation?

• 43:06Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 43:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Can I, since you shared a vulnerability, can I share a vulnerability and a compliment?

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 43:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, okay, okay. So I've been so excited to tell you this. So your book, School of Greatness, I loved the cover. I just thought it was so inspiring. And when I was taking my cover shoot for Captivate, this is six years ago now, it was not going well. I was super awkward. My photographer, amazing Maggie Kirkland, was like, listen, like, this isn't working. You're really awkward. I need you to relax. I can't relax. The worst thing you can do to someone who's anxious is tell them to relax. So we weren't getting the shot, we weren't getting the pictures. And she's like, okay, just think about your role models. Who's your role model? And I was like, Lewis Howes. So she pulls up your book and she goes, okay, she said, look at Lewis. Channel him.

• 43:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so in the shoot, I channeled you and I did your pose of my hands over my stomach with your face. And crazily enough, that is the Captivate cover.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  That was a shot.

• 44:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm gonna send you the full version.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  How many books you sell, how many copies you get?

• 44:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  La, la, la, la. I better, I better send you some royalties.

• 44:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So anyway, I channeled you because that, even that cue, there was something about it. So I thank you for even the cues that you send out because that gifted me confidence we didn't even know about it.

• 44:20Lewis Howes?

  There you go. I appreciate it. I'm glad, I'm glad it worked. What's another thing in the shark tank? I talked about sparking dopamine. What else?

• 44:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so we talked about reading, we talked about dopamine, we talked about interactivity. We talked about complementing in a way that allows someone to see themselves in you, or pulling out a similarity, right? So like, you know, like you Lori, we really value Mr. Wonderful. We love Mr. Wonderful products, right? Like, that really helped. I mean, it sounds like sucking up, but actually, it really works. It really worked. The other thing that we noticed about the interactivity is what they would do is they would cross space zones. So they would have something to give the sharks, and they would go from the carpet to the chairs.

• 45:03Lewis Howes?

  That worked, usually.

• 45:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It worked, because they were going into intimate zone very quickly. So this is called a nonverbal bridge. It's kind of an advanced technique. Do you want to talk about it?

• 45:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 45:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. So a nonverbal bridge is a way that we cross into someone's intimate space, but safely. So what happens is, when we're with someone, we want to connect with them. We want more oxytocin, we want to bond with them. But sometimes it can be hard to break that boundary. A nonverbal bridge is a way that we can create oxytocin with permission. So that could be handing someone something. That could be giving a high five. That could be touching their elbow. And that is exactly what successful pitchers did. They would have a reason or an excuse to, "Hey Lori, let me guide you up here." "Hey Kevin, let me zip on this suit for you." "Hey, you want to try this amazing cinnamon roll?" And when they did that, they created these small little bridges. So what I would think about is like, how can you create bridges to people where you're

• 45:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  engaging them even physically, right? And it's harder on video, but in person, that was a thing that we found in the tank.

• 46:03Lewis Howes?

  How do you do it in a way that the person feels comfortable? If you touch them on the elbow, because someone may not feel comfortable. So you have to be really intuitive to, you know, is this person going to be receptive to me? Are they already interested enough where I can get closer?

• 46:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes. Are they leaning in? Are they giving eye contact? Are they nodding? Oh, I forgot another one that was really important. So vocal power. So we haven't really talked about vocal power, and this was a big one in the tank. So we hear confidence, we hear competence. And the biggest way that we do this is with inflection. So inflection is, the biggest mistake that we make is the question inflection. So the question inflection is when we go up at the end of our sentences. It's also called uptalk. So if I were to-

• 46:44Lewis Howes?

  Don't do uptalk.

• 46:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Don't do uptalk. We're gonna talk about why. So when we use the question inflection, it cues the other person's brain to know, ah, we're being asked a question. The problem is, is that when we accidentally use the question inflection, it makes people question you, right?

• 46:59Lewis Howes?

  Do they really trust what they-

• 47:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. So what happened is, in this study where they looked at doctors, they found that the doctors who had- So I'll break down the study. So what they did is, they asked doctors to record 10-second voice tone clips. And they said like their name, their specialty, where they worked. So it sounded like, "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I work in oncology. I specialize in children's medicine." Something like that. They took the clips and they warbled the words, so you couldn't understand the actual words being said. So it sounded like-

• 47:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Then they asked people to rate these clips on warmth and competence. Right? Again, this research has been repeated over and over again. Imagine for a second, you're asked to listen to a clip of Gobbledygook.

• 47:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes, to see if they're competent and trustworthy.

• 47:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Are they smart? Do you like them? Yeah. And people do it. What they found is, the doctors who had the lowest warmth and competence ratings had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. That implies that we don't just sue doctors based on their skills. We sue doctors based on our perception of their skills, and that happens in the first few seconds of hearing them.

• 48:08Lewis Howes?

  So your communication is everything?

• 48:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Everything. It's not just the words you're using. Are they warm and competent? It's even how you're saying the words. So the very first story I break down in the book, and this is in the intro, so if you want to just look at the sample chapter, you could. I analyzed Jamie Simonoff's pitch. Jamie Simonoff is the founder of Ring-

• 48:28Lewis Howes?

  That didn't get any money, and then it sold for a billion dollars.

• 48:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you, yes. Here is a brilliant guy, right? Jamie Simonoff is brilliant. He had a successful product, right? Ring is a very successful product. Amazon acquired it for over a billion with a B dollars. Yet, he goes into the pitch, in a shark tank, and he pitches, and he doesn't get a deal. Why? That pitch plagued me. Because I was like, here is a smart guy with a great idea, but his cues were the problem. I think that he lost his pitch. This is a really big, a really big statement, and if you listen to it, you'll hear it. I think he lost the deal in the first 10 seconds of them hearing him. And the reason is, is he made the choice to close the doors to the tank. So in his pitch, he doesn't walk down the hallway.

• 49:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You don't see that long first impression. You don't get public to social to personal. He closed the doors. And what he did is he went,

• 49:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  he knocked on the door of the shark tank.

• 49:24Lewis Howes?

  Hello, who's there?

• 49:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They're like, hello? And he goes, it's Jamie?

• 49:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So he asked his own name. And when you're a shark and you're trying to make a very quick first impression of someone without seeing them, and you hear the question reflection, it's supposed to be used on a statement. You immediately begin to question, I don't know. And that is also because we know that liars are more likely to use the question reflection. If you've ever played Two Truths and a Lie, have you ever played that game?

• 49:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so Two Truths and a Lie, here's a little tip for everyone. If you ever played that game, people almost always ask the lie. So they'll be like, oh yeah, Two Truths and a Lie. Um, I have a goldfish. I am a vegetarian and I love dogs.

• 50:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They almost always go up on their lie. And that's because when we're lying, we don't know if you believe us. So subconsciously, we give it away. So Jamie starts his pitch. And he doesn't have a first impression. He doesn't do any greeting in the hallway. He misses that whole walk up. The very first words out of his mouth, doesn't even matter what he says, is, that up talk. And then Mark Cuban says, are you here to pitch? And he says, here to pitch? Again, using the question reflection. I think that what happened was, is it gave away his competence. And then the doors open, right? And he explains this idea of ring, it's a doorbell. The problem is, is his first impression was very low incompetence. And so he had a lot of trouble having the sharks take him seriously.

• 50:53Lewis Howes?

  He was a very competent individual building his business, right? He was very smart, intelligent, knew the technology, how to build product, teams, all these things, get sales, whatever it was. But the warmth wasn't there as well, it seems like, right? Like the trustworthy charisma, warmth, confidence.

• 51:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He undersignaled every step of the way. So he undersignaled warmth, he undersignaled competence. And then was trying to dial up competence. And you hear in the rest of the pitch, he's,

• 51:18Lewis Howes?

  He's trying to build it back up. He's like, but we've done this, and look where we've got this technology.

• 51:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And this money, and then this. And so he cannot get it back. He could not get it back. And so I think I watched that pitch, and I break it down in the book of what happened to this brilliant guy who had one bad day. And I think that if he, you know, he scripted those answers. He prepared for that pitch and he had really good verbal answers. There was even a couple of times where I think this thing happens for people who over rehearse. So if you have an interview or a presentation, what do you do? You rehearse it, right? You practice the perfect answer. That can get in your way though, because if you practice the perfect answer, this is exactly what happened to Semenov and very highly intelligent people do this. He would hear a question from a shark, usually a challenging question because they were like really pushing him on the deal and they didn't believe him.

• 52:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No one believed him. They all thought, oh no, it's too crowded of a market. It will never work. They literally said that to him. I have ring on my front door. And they literally said never. He could not get them to believe him because what would happen was is they would ask him a question. He would start to answer it organically and then he would switch into his rehearsed answer.

• 52:24Lewis Howes?

  Oh man.

• 52:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So you would hear, oh yeah, yeah, we do have market track. Our market traction has been wonderful. In fact, in the last five years, we've done X numbers and you would be like, who is this robot?

• 52:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, just say what's on your heart. Yeah, yeah, just say it organically.

• 52:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, and so I think you can be the smartest person in the world. You could have the best ideas, but if you don't share them right, you're not helping people help you. And so that, that's my, it drives me crazy when smart people can't get their ideas heard. And that pitch crushed me. I felt so bad for him and he made it. He's okay now, right? He's doing really well.

• 52:57Lewis Howes?

  And then he was like a gassed shark or whatever, yeah.

• 52:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, and what's amazing is when you watch him walk into the tank as a shark, you can see the difference. You can feel the difference.

• 53:07Lewis Howes?

  The confidence, yeah.

• 53:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh my, you know, he walks into the tank, he walks down the hallway, right? He walks down the hallway, he's smiling, he gestures, hey, everyone, good to see you. He shakes hands. He does all the things he didn't do in that original pitch. And you can see the difference and it hasn't, he's the same person. Same person, same ideas, similar suits, yet he looks like a different person.

• 53:30Lewis Howes?

  Fascinating. It's not about what you say, it's how you say it. How you present yourself and your words. And your words?

• 53:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And your, no.

• 53:40Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious about this. There's a big topic out there right now. I just did a recent interview with Dr. Romany, who is a therapist psychologist talking about narcissism a lot today. Can you talk to me the difference between charisma and narcissism? And how can you spot when someone is actually warm and caring and charismatic? Versus someone who uses the skills or the tools of charisma? In their narcissistic approach towards manipulating, controlling and getting what they want in life?

• 54:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So this is my biggest fear with this book. This is my, this is my single biggest fear and it was an issue for me when I first started writing it. Is I'll be honest, you can use this book for manipulation.

• 54:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 54:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that scares me.

• 54:27Lewis Howes?

  And when a smart person who's narcissistic is gonna study everything and then start using it.

• 54:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It scares me.

• 54:33Lewis Howes?

  So how can you tell the difference, the subtle cues? These are very subtle now.

• 54:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Very subtle, yeah. So we're talking about big to subtle, right? There's like a range of them. So first is, it is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions. And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing is you, you can, if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control. And if you have bad intentions, they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues. So in the book I talk about, there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, nonverbal, verbal and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable. There's highly competent cues, verbal, nonverbal and vocal. And then there's charismatic. The ones that are just knocking it out of the park, like they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use.

• 55:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They're the way that we leak guilt and shame. Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt that you've done something wrong. So in the danger zone, it is very hard to inhibit those cues. So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them.

• 55:37Lewis Howes?

  Okay, what are those cues?

• 55:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so there's a bunch and I'll, I'll let's talk about as many as we can. So.

• 55:42Lewis Howes?

  And this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot potentially, someone that seems very credible. Someone that could be. In a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right?

• 55:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:56Lewis Howes?

  Extremely successful, they could be successful, they could seem credible, trustworthy.

• 56:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 56:01Lewis Howes?

  But might be super narcissistic underneath.

• 56:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, so there's a couple of danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit, right? So, for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. So Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert, Lance Armstrong was doping. So someone was like, "There was spoilers in the book." And I was like, "You haven't heard of that news yet?" I also talk about Britney Spears in the book, because there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She shows a lot of danger zone cues. So Lance Armstrong, in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping, and he does what's called a lip purse. So a lip purse is, okay, when we push our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture.

• 56:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So when we're literally trying to hold something in, or hold something back, or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go...

• 56:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie, a lot of the time... So we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book, it's called "Lie to Me." So I have you lie to me, play this "Lie to Me" game, diagnose your own tells. It's very important to know your own tells, because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. And you should know those. It's good to know those in the back of your pocket. Do that with your partner, right? You want them to know what those are too. So one thing that we noticed is on lies. That was one of the biggest indicators. So in "Lie to Me" game, we ask you to do two things. We ask you to tell us an embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story. And we want to see if we can tell the difference.

• 57:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake one?

• 57:44Lewis Howes?

  Man, that'd be interesting.

• 57:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, and it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again, right before someone's about to lie and tell their fake embarrassing story. They go, "Okay," and they lip purse right before they're gonna do it. And that's because we don't like lying. Our body knows it's gonna get us into trouble. So we're like, "Stop it, stop it, stop it," and we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman, "How much do you weigh?" And she'll go, "Mmm." Like literally close those lips because no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So it's a withholding gesture and so that's the first thing is you want to look for some of the bigger cues. Withholding gestures, lip purse is one, a sudden distancing behavior. So we also noticed that liars in our lab, they wanted to like get away from the lie like as if it smelled. So like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be like leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it's so embarrassing. Remember embarrassing stories are negative.

• 58:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 58:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like, and they do a shame touch. The universal shame touch is when people touch their fingers to the side of their forehead.

• 58:39Lewis Howes?

  This happened in my life.

• 58:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, oh gosh, I'm so embarrassed.

• 58:43Lewis Howes?

  So they're usually telling the truth and they do like this.

• 58:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, because they're actually embarrassed, right? So these are all good, like congruent, right? We're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative, unverbal, and people shaking their head, I can't believe that happened, right? Like they, oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes, we're seeing fear, we're seeing sadness. Congruent, right? Like that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories, we often see people will lip purse and they try to get away from it. So they'll say a statement and then, uh, you know, and then, um, and they're literally like as far away, I hope I'm not messing up my audio there. As far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back, they'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair. And that's because physically we want to distance ourselves from things we don't like.

• 59:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing. And there's a lot of cues that we can't control, right? So blink rate is another one, eye blocking behavior is liars have higher blink rates.

• 59:38Lewis Howes?

  They blink more.

• 59:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, actually in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I, I actually break this on my YouTube channel, so you don't even have to read the book if you want to see it. Where I break down the cues in this early interview. This is right before the conservatorship started, so very, very full of cues because it's right before it happened. And she gets asked a very difficult question and she, all of a sudden, her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate. So she starts to, to really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening. So we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, "Oh, I know a very narcissistic manipulative person who has a very high blink rate."

• 1:00:23Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:00:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because they're literally like trying to block out the lie or the manipulation. And so they'll sound really good, but they're like really like processing a lot. And you're like, "Why are they blinking so much?" And it's because they're trying to process.

• 1:00:35Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:00:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So just knowing those cues, they're not all bad on their own, but it's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them. And I do think, I really think, manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. It's hard to keep that up. And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them. But for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at, you know, Theranos, right? So Elizabeth Holmes, so spoiler alert, Theranos did not go well. I have to say that. So one of her interesting cues is, I don't know if you've ever seen her talk, she has a really, she uses a really deep voice, like fakely deep, like down here.

• 1:01:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And people used to say like, "Is that real?" It's because she read in some cue book, it wasn't mine, because my book wasn't out then, thank goodness, she read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice and it serves you really well. When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register. When I'm talking to my toddler. Right, right. When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm much more up here. You know, "Hey, baby, how are you?" But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy.

• 1:01:56Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. You wouldn't feel competent.

• 1:01:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, and it wouldn't, and people would go, "I can't, I'm not taking her seriously." So she read that study, obviously.

• 1:02:04Lewis Howes?

  An octave lower.

• 1:02:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There you go. And went an octave lower. So it wasn't her natural voice tone, it was like one step lower than her voice tones. She was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this, and you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your spidey sense would be like, "Why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural." And it came out that when she was drunk... Her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register. So there are cues, they will eventually.

• 1:02:32Lewis Howes?

  Don't drink alcohol.

• 1:02:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol.

• 1:02:37Lewis Howes?

  Or you're gonna get caught.

• 1:02:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like you can't keep it up for that long.

• 1:02:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is that she was faking that cue, we think.

• 1:02:44Lewis Howes?

  I think you're also just, your body is out of integrity. Like the more you're, you're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I mean, I've felt this from the past because I've been out of integrity in my life at different times, from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right? For little white lies to bigger stuff, hiding from my parents or whatever it is.

• 1:03:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They feel bad.

• 1:03:02Lewis Howes?

  So you're like, huh, like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you gotta like, keep the lie up and you're like, huh, eventually you're gonna explode or you're gonna have a heart attack or something.

• 1:03:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's gonna leak. It's gonna leak.

• 1:03:13Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna leak. Leaking cues.

• 1:03:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Leak, you leak those cues and like, those are the cues that we're looking for. Like, I want you to be on the lookout for them because when something feels bad, like even like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone changed.

• 1:03:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Just then.

• 1:03:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because when you think about, oh, I like, think about seeing a toxic person. And I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives. And this is why toxic people are so challenging because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it. Now, we can do it.

• 1:03:45Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean? We gotta be nice to them or something?

• 1:03:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. So like, if you have a toxic person and this is the thorn and, and I think our work is I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest, most confident self. But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic people. You have a colleague or coworker or a family member. That you don't like, right? And you have to break out the fake warmth cues. Oh, hi, how are you? Right? And so what do we do? We fake smile, right? So, oh, it's so good to see you. Right? And like, no, don't look like it, right? Or we say, oh, yeah, so how, oh, that sounds good. Congratulations. Right?

• 1:04:26Lewis Howes?

  Now your LA roots are coming back to you.

• 1:04:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And right, that's why toxic people challenge us is because they come into our lives, we know we're supposed to be warm. And so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and then it makes us feel bad and then we're trying to overcompensate for it. And so you know what the antidote here is not learning more fake warmth cues. It's it's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like the side effect.

• 1:04:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:04:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Of the book is like.

• 1:04:53Lewis Howes?

  Don't keep them around.

• 1:04:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Don't keep those people around because it will leak and so set boundaries.

• 1:04:58Lewis Howes?

  So what do you mean it will leak? Like your integrity will leak because you're constantly trying to be nice, but they're actually out of integrity because you don't want to be.

• 1:05:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:05:04Lewis Howes?

  Is that right?

• 1:05:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, that's exactly right.

• 1:05:06Lewis Howes?

  So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me because I feel like I have to with this person.

• 1:05:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's right.

• 1:05:11Lewis Howes?

  And the more frequently you do that, you feel out of integrity with yourself.

• 1:05:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yep, exactly.

• 1:05:16Lewis Howes?

  With yourself.

• 1:05:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  With yourself. So that was a question you asked me.

• 1:05:19Lewis Howes?

  That's a question, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I'm like, yes, it was.

• 1:05:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes. It was perfect because you were asking a question I knew, yes, is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries, we have to have some of those people we deal with.

• 1:05:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:05:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But if you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness and that feels really bad.

• 1:05:35Lewis Howes?

  What happens if, let's just say there's a person you don't like.

• 1:05:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:38Lewis Howes?

  Let's just say, maybe they're not toxic. There's somebody you don't like and you don't like being nice to because you feel like, why am I, I just don't, nothing wrong with them, they're just not my person, yeah.

• 1:05:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Totally.

• 1:05:47Lewis Howes?

  Let's say you're in a work environment.

• 1:05:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Lewis Howes?

  And you're at a company, you've got 50, 100 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm here.

• 1:05:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Lewis Howes?

  Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person? Friendly, fake, how are you interested? Even though you've like been around them for six months or a year and you realize you really don't like them? Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months and say, you know what? I just want to be completely honest and not fake with you because I feel like I've been fake. That I don't connect with you, I don't like you, I think, I think you're out of integrity, I think you're inauthentic and maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd rather be honest with you and fake nice to you.

• 1:06:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C?

• 1:06:29Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:06:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so I don't believe in fake it till you make it. So I, I, I try not to give like fake it. I don't, I don't roll that way. Like I just think it's exhausting, I think it's going to leak. The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them. Right? You have to master your tasks, you have to be on it, you have to be responsive to emails. So that is something that you can be authentic about because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting. So I would skip all the fake warmth stuff.

• 1:07:04Lewis Howes?

  Just go right into competence.

• 1:07:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. Right, like stick with where you're authentic, which is like, I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. I don't need a fake sitting with you for coffee, but you know what? We can get stuff done. You know what? We align on goals.

• 1:07:17Lewis Howes?

  So create boundaries around the, hey, let's go have coffee.

• 1:07:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, you know, I'm so busy, I'm so busy today, but you know what? Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick off.

• 1:07:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. So get back to like the mission, the task on hand, the competence. And maybe you've just gotta be like, okay, this is someone where, you know, 20 seconds a day, I've gotta be around someone that's trying to be fake, la di da di with everyone, and I'll just wait.

• 1:07:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm gonna get stuff done.

• 1:07:41Lewis Howes?

  And then I'll move on to the next thing.

• 1:07:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. Exactly, because then at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic. And also that's, even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be, listen, like, you know, I'm I'm not really into like, you know, connecting at work, I'm more about getting it done. I wanna get home to my kids and my family, I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us like, you know, work it out and be really efficient. I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster. Right, like, that's authentic. So what can you appreciate about them that's competent?

• 1:08:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:08:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What can you highlight about them that's competent?

• 1:08:17Lewis Howes?

  What if you don't feel like they're warm or competent? You're like, this person on a team is just, they can't get anything done, they're not smart, and they have fake attitude around me all day.

• 1:08:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say, deal with it. Like, you got, like, go to your boss.

• 1:08:31Lewis Howes?

  Right, and say, hey, can we put them on a different team?

• 1:08:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. You say, like, I don't know how, I can work with this person, I don't wanna be unauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done, and they are causing issues on the team, like, I don't like to ignore that stuff. Like, you could hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent, and doesn't treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, set a boundary, or get help.

• 1:08:56Lewis Howes?

  Give them like an improvement plan or something, yeah.

• 1:08:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, don't live with it. Life is too short to feel Fakely competent or fake warmth.

• 1:09:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. What's been the, uh, I think I asked you this last time. What's been the charisma strategy?

• 1:09:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Lewis Howes?

  If you want to call it a strategy.

• 1:09:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You weren't sure about that. You weren't sure.

• 1:09:13Lewis Howes?

  I don't know what the word is, right? But what is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last six months? That has brought some new attention to your life? Where you said, ah, I wasn't aware of that fully. But now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves this.

• 1:09:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft. Cause I just learned it. And this is actually brought to me by one, it's called my male readers. And I'm so curious. Okay. Do you agree with this, Louis? Okay. Here's what they said. So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding. So nodding, affirmative nods, upside down, right?

• 1:09:48Lewis Howes?

  I'm not all done yet.

• 1:09:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. Yes. You're a nodder. It's really high warmth. We love it. We love nodding. Yes. Nodding is great because vertical nods. And by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they'll nod, they nod sideways. That's different. Okay. So just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement. It's yes. In fact, research has found that when you nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer.

• 1:10:09Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. That's cool.

• 1:10:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's why you're a good interviewer is because you'll nod and be like, keep going. Keep going, keep going.

• 1:10:14Lewis Howes?

  I'm just like a bobblehead. I'm just kind of like, yeah. I'm very slow. I'll pause. I'm like, okay, cool.

• 1:10:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. Well, actually you're right. Slow nodding is tell me more. Fast nodding is finish up.

• 1:10:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Okay. Okay.

• 1:10:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. Got it. I got it. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a one, two, three triple nod, like I got it. If you want them to keep going, an introvert, uh huh, uh huh. Okay. So that's the difference. That's number one. So I, I've shared about this. I taught it. And then a couple of my male readers said to me, no, Vanessa, we think that there is a secret non-verbal cue between guys. Now, I don't know what this cue is. Here's what they said.

• 1:10:50Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:10:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him, guy to guy, you nod up.

• 1:10:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Good to see you. It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know a guy, but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, you pay. Good to see ya.

• 1:11:04Lewis Howes?

  Oh wow, that's so true.

• 1:11:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is it true?

• 1:11:06Lewis Howes?

  That's so true. Yeah, he's like, "Oh, good to see you."

• 1:11:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, acknowledged.

• 1:11:09Lewis Howes?

  Good to see you. Hey, what's up, buddy?

• 1:11:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 1:11:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's so true.

• 1:11:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so I snuck it into the book last minute.

• 1:11:15Lewis Howes?

  Oh wow, that's fascinating. I wonder, is that like biology? Is that social?

• 1:11:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking. I started watching, man. I asked my husband, I asked my guy friends, and this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So this is a very vulnerable part of our body, and we're saying, "I know you, I trust you." Look, I'm opening, I'm acknowledging you, and I feel trustworthy. When you don't know someone, but you want to show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular. "I don't know you, but I see you. I got you."

• 1:11:44Lewis Howes?

  I got you. "I'm here for you, kind of."

• 1:11:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You can't see my jugular, but I'm here for you.

• 1:11:49Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna protect myself.

• 1:11:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But I see you.

• 1:11:50Lewis Howes?

  But I'm here for you, bro.

• 1:11:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. I think that's where it comes from. If it's like a, "Do I know you or do I not know you?" So, in that sense, this is a high warmth cue. "Hey buddy, what's up?" Right, it's high warmth. You're showing your jugular. This is a high competence cue. "Hello, good to see you." I look ridiculous, because I don't do that. Right, I'm like, "Hi," you know? So, I think that that was so surprising to me, because there's so much more, I think, to be done. Like, I list 96 cues in the book, right? That's just the start. I think we're discovering more and more. And that's where the excitement comes in. So that was the new one.

• 1:12:25Lewis Howes?

  That's so cool. And what about, what are the three most powerful cues, body language cues of leaders?

• 1:12:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hmm, okay. So this is the competence area of the spectrum, right? So when we talk about charisma, we talk about warmth, competence, charisma, and danger. Okay, so three body languages of leaders. The example that I give, that I really like to teach from, is the Nixon-Kennedy presidential debate.

• 1:12:46Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:12:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Have you ever heard of this historical debate? We were not around for this debate, so I'd be shocked if you'd seen it.

• 1:12:51Lewis Howes?

  So we want to be in the high charisma.

• 1:12:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There you go. Yes.

• 1:12:55Lewis Howes?

  We want to be doing those cues all the time.

• 1:12:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's right. We want to be in the star. So right now, you're talking about competence. You just asked me about leaders. So leaders typically are high competence, and they can go into warmth when they want to.

• 1:13:04Lewis Howes?

  High competence and charisma.

• 1:13:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:13:07Lewis Howes?

  Are there high competence and high warmth?

• 1:13:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, exactly, right? So, highly competent cues, if you know that you're warm, and you need to dial up competence to hit the sweet spot, these are some cues that will help you.

• 1:13:16Lewis Howes?

  Give it to me.

• 1:13:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And my favorite is from the Nixon president, Nixon Kennedy presidential debate. So this, have you heard about this debate before? It's kind of...

• 1:13:22Lewis Howes?

  Remind me.

• 1:13:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay. You're like, "Actually, yes, I watched it on the History Channel last night."

• 1:13:27Lewis Howes?

  I mean, maybe you mentioned this before, but isn't one of them was angry or something? I can't remember what happened, but...

• 1:13:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So this is, this is why I like this story, is because it created a puzzle. And I like puzzles. So here's what happened. During this part in US history, Nixon and Kennedy were running for president, and about half the population watched the presidential debate on television, and about half the population listened to the debate on the radio. Everyone who watched the debate was sure that Kennedy won, and everyone who listened to the debate was sure that Nixon won. And it was the first time where there was discrepancy between the winners, the perceived winners.

• 1:14:02Lewis Howes?

  Because one sounded competent, the other one looked warm.

• 1:14:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  One sounded like a leader, and one looked like a leader.

• 1:14:07Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, you match them together, that's the sweet spot.

• 1:14:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's the star.

• 1:14:11Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:14:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's the star, exactly.

• 1:14:13Lewis Howes?

  So one sounded like a leader...

• 1:14:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So Nixon sounded like a leader. He had really good vocal power, but he looked like a loser. And I hate to use that word, but he himself said in his memoirs, he believes he lost that entire presidential election based on the first few seconds of that debate. First few seconds. He himself said that.

• 1:14:33Lewis Howes?

  What did he say, what happened? So he was all, it was kind of like the Shark Tank guy, trying to buy back competence and warmth at the same time.

• 1:14:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He gave away his competence in the first few seconds of the debate. So anyone who saw it went, "Oh, no, no, no, no. This guy is not a winner." And this was before they even spoke. So in the first 30 seconds of the debate, neither of them speak. You see them on camera. And if you were watching, you saw, "Wow, Nixon looks so weak." And here's why. What most people don't know is that Nixon had just injured his knee on the campaign trail. And he'd been in the hospital for the week. So he came in with a bandaged knee and a fever. Kennedy had been tanning.

• 1:15:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, he was. He was like. A nice suit and everything.

• 1:15:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He was ready to go. And also, a kind of funny thing is, the debate was in black and white. And Nixon's suit was too brown. It blended into the background. So I talk about color psychology at the very end of the book, Colors. So that wasn't issue one that he didn't pop as much on the black and white. Okay, so he shows up and he's sitting in what's called the runner's stance. The runner's stance is when someone, so you know runners, before they win a race, they like go into the crunch position, one leg back. We know this as a readiness position. Universally across cultures, if someone's about to run away from us, they will get into this position, right? Like, they're literally about to run away. It's why sprinters start a race like that. Well, Nixon spent the first 30 seconds of the debate in that position.

• 1:15:53Lewis Howes?

  Because of his knee.

• 1:15:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because of his knee.

• 1:15:55Lewis Howes?

  It was a pain. He was trying to like just.

• 1:15:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He was nursing it. But it made it look like he was about to run out on us. That's from just a quick, non-verbal perspective. The first impression was, where's he going? Even though people didn't consciously realize it, he looked not planted. And we don't like leaders who aren't going to stay with us. Whereas Kennedy, on the other hand, he had a really nice, relaxed cross. And he used what's called humility hands. Research calls it humility hands. Humility hands are when your hands are on your leg and they're resting. Humility, humble.

• 1:16:24Lewis Howes?

  Humble.

• 1:16:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So he looked relaxed, calm, here to stay, you know, not tense.

• 1:16:29Lewis Howes?

  I'm not in a rush. I'm here.

• 1:16:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm here. I'm your leader, right? So he looked, quote unquote, presidential. So first, the runner's stance. Second is, and this is in the first 10 seconds of the debate.

• 1:16:39Lewis Howes?

  They were sitting. They were sitting.

• 1:16:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They were sitting next to each other.

• 1:16:40Lewis Howes?

  They weren't at a podium.

• 1:16:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No. So here's your first snapshot of the debate. And you see Kennedy, very humility hands.

• 1:16:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes, relaxed.

• 1:16:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Relax, sitting tall. And then you see Nixon, who's like gripping the chair arm. Ready to leave. And we see these cues, and people already made their decision. But people who were listening didn't see any of that.

• 1:16:57Lewis Howes?

  Right. They heard the voice.

• 1:16:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They heard the voice. And so Nixon lost the debate to Kennedy. He lost the election to Kennedy. And he said in his memoirs, that's why, is because of the cues I sent. And so. For leaders, here's what we want to think about. One is relaxed, here to stay. So the more you can settle into your place, the distance, this is such a weird measurement. I want to see the biggest distance between your ear lobe and your shoulder.

• 1:17:22Lewis Howes?

  So not like this?

• 1:17:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes. Because, why? When we are confident, when we are winners, we take up as much space as possible, right? We broaden our shoulders, we tilt our head towards the sky. Winners feel pride. So we look at the distance between someone's ear and shoulder. We're like, oh, he looks, she looks confident. When someone hops on a video call, this is the mistake I see. Hi, everyone. Shoulders pinched up towards ears. And we wonder why people aren't taking us seriously. We wonder why people are interrupting us. It's because this distance, if I'm like this, hey, everyone, happy Monday.

• 1:17:57Lewis Howes?

  Well, your tonality as well, but yeah.

• 1:17:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like if I start a video call like this. So today, we're going to talk about some updates and I'm going to go over some different slides with you. And we're going to wait a few minutes while people log on.

• 1:18:11Lewis Howes?

  So if I'm on your team, are they, is everyone just like?

• 1:18:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:18:17Lewis Howes?

  No one gets you? Are you just calling each other out on your shoulders?

• 1:18:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Everyone's a winner on my team. They're amazing, right? Like we like, we like play music, like, yeah, right? Of course, you can lean in sometimes, you can, but in that first impression especially, right? It's like, hey, good morning, everyone, good to see you. So I want you to think about profile pictures, videos. I love chairs with armrests. Why? It helps our, our shoulders stay grounded. So that's the biggest one is taking up space. The second thing that happens, that also gives you more vocal power. So if I were to do my, this entire interview with my shoulders up, it would look bizarre, right? I would look scared.

• 1:18:54Lewis Howes?

  You would be more closed out.

• 1:18:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, it would be. And so if I tense my vocal cords right now, I'll begin to go into vocal fry. So vocal fry, have you heard this before? It's when your voice sounds like sizzling bacon. I just don't know, I'm not sure. But like I was just thinking about it and if it's, oh, my goodness, it's horrible. And the reason why we'll accidentally go into fry is because we're literally clenching our vocal cords and they cannot get enough breath. Vocal fry, not to be gross, but vocal fry happens when our vocal cords rattle together. And that's what we're hearing is the rattling. That's why we don't like it. And so when you have space, you prevent vocal fry. If you hear yourself in vocal fry, here's the quickest fix you have. Speak louder.

• 1:19:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:19:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So the best way to get rid of vocal fry is to just up your volume. It will push more air through your vocal cords and it makes them hum.

• 1:19:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If other people on your team are using vocal fry, just ask them to speak up.

• 1:19:49Lewis Howes?

  Speak a little louder.

• 1:19:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, that will usually get them out of vocal fry.

• 1:19:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:19:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Little secret, don't blame it on me, but that's a really easy way to. If you're interviewing someone and they're in vocal fry and you know it's gonna drive your listeners crazy, just be like, you know, the audio, they just can't hear you. Could you speak a little bit louder? It will work.

• 1:20:05Lewis Howes?

  Now, what's the difference between the humble hands on a knees? Or on a table, I guess, right here, does this work on a table as well?

• 1:20:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:20:13Lewis Howes?

  Versus hand over top of the other hand? Which is relaxed, but also is closed body?

• 1:20:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:20:19Lewis Howes?

  Versus two hands, two hands side by side, relaxed, not like intense, but relaxed, side by side. What's the difference between these two?

• 1:20:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Perfect question. So your book cover, your book cover is hand over hand.

• 1:20:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they're relaxed.

• 1:20:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it's a closed posture, but it works.

• 1:20:36Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? And so it's okay to me, as long as your hands are relaxed, I don't care if they're closed or open. Now, I do care about this. So when we protect our trunk.

• 1:20:46Lewis Howes?

  Arms crossed.

• 1:20:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Arms crossed, yes, I do care about this. And why is because when we are crossing like this, I know it's comfortable for some people. What research finds is two things. One is we look more closed off, so we never wanna look closed off. But second, they found that when people are trying to be creative or strategic, they literally cannot generate as much ideas when they are like this.

• 1:21:05Lewis Howes?

  What's the alternative?

• 1:21:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Humility hands, open posture, holding a drink, typing at a computer, taking notes.

• 1:21:12Lewis Howes?

  Anything else but?

• 1:21:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Anything else but that, anything else. So I love props. So I, the way that I don't cross my arms, because I actually like to cross my arms.

• 1:21:20Lewis Howes?

  It's kinda relaxing, you know, it's kinda like.

• 1:21:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know. But actually, if you're thinking or processing, cross away, right? If you're, if you need to like take a minute, take a step back, it's a great way to break. So I hold a clicker for presentations and a pen, you know, like for slides. Because every time I think about crossing my arms, I remember, oh, I have the clicker. When we think about getting rid of, I call them like bad nonverbal habits, right? So tics, so ums, crossing arms, those are all bad nonverbal habits.

• 1:21:46Lewis Howes?

  Slouching.

• 1:21:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Slouching, yeah. It's really hard to just say, don't do that. So what I'd rather you do is replace it. Displacement tactics. Okay, so you know you cross your arms. Can you hold a coffee mug? Can you hold a pen? Can you hold a clicker? Can you always have a Moleskine notebook? I have a student of mine who always has a Moleskine. He doesn't need it.

• 1:22:04Lewis Howes?

  He just holds it.

• 1:22:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He has it, he opens it up and he'll write the date and the meeting name and what he had for breakfast, but that's it. He literally uses it because if he doesn't, he puts his hands in his pocket or crosses his arms. And so he has it in front of him because it helps him feel very grounded and centered.

• 1:22:19Lewis Howes?

  It's a replacement tool.

• 1:22:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a replacement tool. So I would think about what are some tools you can use that will help you do that?

• 1:22:24Lewis Howes?

  What about like, what about the finger crossing?

• 1:22:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like, look at the difference. Like this, when I'm white knuckling, you can see that I am tense. I'm trying to keep it together, Vanessa, right?

• 1:22:34Lewis Howes?

  But this is.

• 1:22:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But this, so this is called a steeple.

• 1:22:37Lewis Howes?

  The fingertip touch.

• 1:22:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, I love a steeple. Yeah, so a steeple is when the tips of your fingers touch and like a church steeple.

• 1:22:43Lewis Howes?

  It's like Mr. Wonderful just does this the whole time.

• 1:22:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. You will notice that when Mr. Yes, when Mr. Wonderful is contemplating a deal, he'll go like this. Why? Doesn't it make you feel like you're just in control? It's like, hmm. And so this is a really good power gesture. It's one of our competence cues. It's why I have it on the cover of the book is to show high competence because it's about getting in control. The steeple, we love it because it shows our palms, which shows we're not concealing anything.

• 1:23:09Lewis Howes?

  Do you want the steeple pointed at someone?

• 1:23:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Either one, any of those, any and all, whatever feels natural.

• 1:23:13Lewis Howes?

  Up here like the diamond.

• 1:23:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be like, hello, everyone, good morning.

• 1:23:18Lewis Howes?

  So here or pointed at them is fine?

• 1:23:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Totally fine. You'll notice that like Mr. Wonderful does it perfectly. He'll like go like this, he'll tap it. The only thing I would be careful of is drumming fingers. That looks like Mr. Burns evil, right?

• 1:23:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't love that one, okay? So like, don't look like you're scheming, right? Like, that can look a little bit crazy. But if you're like, oh, yes, I'm thinking about it. Now, I want to give a caveat. Please only use cues that you've tried on a few times and feel natural. There are some cues in the book, where there's 96 cues in the book that I still don't like. I've tried them every which way and I do not like them.

• 1:23:51Lewis Howes?

  What's the most powerful cue that you don't like, but you know is extremely effective in charisma, or connection, or trust, or leadership?

• 1:23:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Probably volume. So, research shows that people who speak in louder volumes, literally are taken more seriously, but that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And so, even on stage, when I'm like really excited, I still don't want to be like, "Let me tell you about something very..." Oh god, that's horrible. I don't like it. But volume dynamism is a cue I teach in the book that I have trouble with.

• 1:24:22Lewis Howes?

  But the research shows that people are more trustworthy, or more competent.

• 1:24:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Competent. It is a competent cue.

• 1:24:27Lewis Howes?

  Because if you're soft, it's like you don't believe in your words.

• 1:24:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's actually volume dynamism. So, it's being able to use your volume to match your intention. So, for example, let's-

• 1:24:36Lewis Howes?

  So, tonality and fluctuation, at the right moment.

• 1:24:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes, yes. So, like, for example, I feel a little ridiculous when I do this. This is why, this is the most cue that I struggle with, which is like, "Let me tell you about something super important."

• 1:24:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I just feel ridiculous, but some people do it so well.

• 1:24:52Lewis Howes?

  But it works.

• 1:24:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, it works so well.

• 1:24:54Lewis Howes?

  And some of these, there are people are so charismatic-

• 1:24:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:24:57Lewis Howes?

  -when you can get the tonality, the inflectuation, is that what it is, of the tonality? They taught this to us in Toastmasters as one of the 10-

• 1:25:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh!

• 1:25:04Lewis Howes?

  -initial lessons of being a competent communicator. One of the exercises is to give a five-minute speech using tonality. It's very, you have to like find the cues of when you're like, pause and slow it, and then you bring it out, and it's like, how do you make it authentic?

• 1:25:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh.

• 1:25:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So, some people do it naturally. They're so good at it.

• 1:25:22Lewis Howes?

  So gifted.

• 1:25:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is not me. That's why I don't have a podcast. That's why I have a YouTube channel.

• 1:25:27Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like, on YouTube, I can use my gestures and my facial expressions. It's why I don't have a podcast. I feel I am not dynamic enough in my vocal power. And so, that's one cue that I'm, I work on, but I have a hard time being in control of my volume.

• 1:25:43Lewis Howes?

  Okay, so we have that, these hand gestures. This is fine on the table also?

• 1:25:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yep, all good, relaxing good.

• 1:25:48Lewis Howes?

  What about hands open on the table?

• 1:25:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so let's talk about palm up versus palm down.

• 1:25:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so, when I was using for the book, I was looking for my favorite or cues hiding in plain sight. Those are my favorite. Oh, I just used it.

• 1:25:59Lewis Howes?

  Those are my favorites.

• 1:26:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Those are my favorites.

• 1:26:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you did. That was very organic.

• 1:26:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I did.

• 1:26:04Lewis Howes?

  It's very natural.

• 1:26:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm really happy right now.

• 1:26:06Lewis Howes?

  It's like you're speaking to a girlfriend, just naturally flowing through-

• 1:26:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Let me tell you-

• 1:26:09Lewis Howes?

  I tell you, sit right here.

• 1:26:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, okay, so that was great. That was very exciting. I feel very excited. Okay, so I love cues hiding in plain sight. And so I had a lot of political examples, a lot of celebrity examples, and Brittany and Lance Armstrong. But I wanted historical examples, and so I was looking at famous paintings. And I noticed The Last Supper, painted by Leonardo da Vinci, has hidden cues in it. You'll notice that the way that it's positioned, Christ is positioned in the middle. So da Vinci positioned in the middle, okay. Most people do not realize that in that picture, Christ is doing this. He has one palm up and one palm down. It's hard to see it in that.

• 1:26:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh yeah, his left palm is up and the right palm is down on the table, right?

• 1:26:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, this is very interesting, because like, most people don't look at this right away. But why? Why is he doing that?

• 1:26:54Lewis Howes?

  Why would he put his hand like that?

• 1:26:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Why would he put his hand like that? And what do those mean? So, let's look at the research. Palms open are universal gestures of openness. When we want something, what do we do? We hold open our hand.

• 1:27:05Lewis Howes?

  Give it to me.

• 1:27:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, when we're offering something, what do we do? We hold open our hand. When we are open to suggestion, we show our palm and we have it visible. A palm down gesture is a high competence cue. It shows dominance, it shows directiveness. You might think of, I won't mention them by name, some famous dictators of the past who did palm down gestures. Why? That is a very dominant gesture. When you are giving, people are giving directives, they often say, "Be quiet, sit down." Right? "I don't want to hear from you right now." It's a very direct.

• 1:27:38Lewis Howes?

  Dismissive too, in a sense, right?

• 1:27:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Especially if you shake it at someone. So, why would we have these two cues? They perfectly balance each other out. Christ is depicted as the highest, most charismatic person in the painting. And so what does he do? He literally balances warmth and competence. He's showing the universal gesture of openness and giving, while at the same time, a universal gesture of direct authority.

• 1:28:01Lewis Howes?

  When was this painting made?

• 1:28:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  1498.

• 1:28:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:28:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, so da Vinci, I think, hid cues that signaled the viewer, "Wow, he's charismatic." But the takeaway from this, by the way, is if you're giving a directive and you don't want it to be questioned, you're better off giving palms down. You're better off saying, "Listen, team, we've got to get this done. We've got to be efficient, we've got to be streamlined." I need you to do it for me.

• 1:28:23Lewis Howes?

  Just go, yeah.

• 1:28:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Just go, just do it. If you want feedback, like when I take Q and A, I'm like, what can I do? What questions can I answer? Right, I'm giving open. That's a very, very subtle, but very powerful cue. Okay, so that's how Christ is depicted balancing. The other thing that he does is if you measure the amount of space that Christ takes up in the painting, you'll notice he takes up the most space. He is literally, has the most distance between his shoulder and his earlobe.

• 1:28:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, because he's tilting. So tilting is a warmth gesture. And so he is the only pictured person who is head tilt with also expansive posture. So there's all these hidden cues that I think paint this picture behind what's happening. Now, if you look at Judas, now if you didn't know anything about this history, Judas would be the character painted with the most intrigue. If you notice, he's also holding a clenched fist, right? He's the only character in the picture who has a clenched fist and is distancing. He's literally turning his body away from us. And we know, we already talked about, that distancing is a danger zone cue. So here is the person who is later about to betray Christ. And how does Da Vinci signal that? He hides cues.

• 1:29:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He shows a clenched fist, which shows withholding and anger. And then he shows that he's about to lie, that he literally turns his body away. The reason I show this is because I think that we don't realize there's these cues being sent to us all the time. You know, I do a lot of breakdowns on my YouTube channel of politicians. And we don't realize, even when we look at political campaigns, in one picture, there's thousands of cues being sent to us, and we should know what's being sent to us.

• 1:29:57Lewis Howes?

  The thumb pinch.

• 1:29:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, the thumb pinch.

• 1:29:59Lewis Howes?

  This is Obama, right?

• 1:30:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 1:30:01Lewis Howes?

  He did this all the time, didn't he?

• 1:30:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So here's what's funny is Obama used to be a pointer. We don't like being pointed at. So there's something about it as humans, and it's like, let me tell you what to do. It's kind of a better than. So I think he was coached, because all of a sudden, he never pointed again, and he only used the thumb pinch. The thumb pinch is a very clever gesture, because in Western cultures, this means good job, thumbs up.

• 1:30:25Lewis Howes?

  Thumbs up.

• 1:30:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Good job, or like me. Like literally, social media, like, right? This is what we see. Like, like, like, like, give me a like. And so the thumb pinch is a very subtle thumbs up gesture. So every time he does it, it makes you think, oh, first of all, it's not, he never clenches.

• 1:30:39Lewis Howes?

  It's relaxed.

• 1:30:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's relaxed.

• 1:30:41Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of like an open thumb.

• 1:30:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's an open thumb because he's saying, A okay, A okay, like, like, like. And he's also saying, this is a point I want you to remember. It literally looks like a bullet point.

• 1:30:49Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:30:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm gonna give you a point that you should remember.

• 1:30:52Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:30:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And Obama, I'm gonna do an Obama impression, it's gonna embarrass us both, okay?

• 1:30:56Lewis Howes?

  It's okay.

• 1:30:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm not very good at impressions, but Obama does this thing that I just, I find so interesting. So Obama uses a downward inflection. So we talked about the question inflection, right? So when we go up at the end of our sentences, Obama goes down at the end of his sentences. He literally slings down his words. And downward inflection, we hear, is very authoritative. So I'm gonna do an Obama impression, okay? So this is him slinging down his words. He goes, Sasha, Malia, it's very important that what we do today is going to be remembered forever. And if we don't do those things, we are going to be in deep trouble. That's a terrible Obama impression, but you can hear what I'm saying, right?

• 1:31:36Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 1:31:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He slings his words down, and that is very authoritative. So even that vocal cue makes us think, wow, he knows what he's talking about.

• 1:31:44Lewis Howes?

  Right. It's more authoritative, more confident.

• 1:31:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's more authoritative versus if he were to say, Sasha, Malia, I have something really important to tell you. It's really important we do this for our future. Could you imagine? If he gave speeches like that. And so even that vocal inflection worked for him because he also creates a lot of space in his mouth. He has a lot of space in the middle part of his mouth, so he talks very deeply in his mouth. And that helps keep his resonance really low because he has a space in the back of his mouth. And that creates a lot of resonance.

• 1:32:17Lewis Howes?

  It's a good.

• 1:32:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you.

• 1:32:18Lewis Howes?

  It's a good impression. I like it.

• 1:32:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're not embarrassed for me?

• 1:32:22Lewis Howes?

  No, it's great.

• 1:32:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's because he creates this low resonance point, and we like it. So that's, that downward inflection is really important.

• 1:32:30Lewis Howes?

  So many great cues in here, the power of the pause, a pause for power.

• 1:32:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So a mistake that I used to make is I would pause the end of my sentence before continuing on to my next sentence. And I'd get interrupted. Right, so a mistake that people will make is they'll give a thought, pause, and then keep speaking. Now pauses are quite powerful. Powerful people typically use pauses in their speech. But if you pause in between your sentences, people will interrupt you because they think you're done. You're actually better off using what I call a power pause. A power pause is when you pause right before you give something away.

• 1:33:03Lewis Howes?

  So not the end of a sentence.

• 1:33:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right.

• 1:33:07Lewis Howes?

  In the middle of a sentence, before you're gonna share something.

• 1:33:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Really important.

• 1:33:11Lewis Howes?

  So let me tell you something really important.

• 1:33:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it, exactly. So like, so here's the mistake that people make is they'll say, "Something really important happened in my childhood that I want to tell you about." Pause. "It was when I was..." Okay. People are like, "Should I talk to you? Should I ask you another question? What should I say?" It actually creates conversational confusion, which is the last thing you want. Versus, "I want to share a really important story from my childhood." That creates a lot more intrigue because like, "A story, oh, from your childhood." And I have no desire to interrupt. So that's a very advanced tip. That's towards the end of the book. It's a very advanced tip because if you have trouble with people interrupting you, I would practice switching your pauses and think about that. What's the drama you can give?

• 1:33:54Lewis Howes?

  Drama.

• 1:33:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:55Lewis Howes?

  Create the drama.

• 1:33:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Volume pauses, yeah. And by the way, Obama did that very well. He would deliver a point, right? He would go into his residence and he would say, "What this country needs is better systems." Right? I'm saying nothing, but you're like, "What's better? What is it? What is the thing that we need?"

• 1:34:14Lewis Howes?

  It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

• 1:34:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. Although how you say it is important too.

• 1:34:19Lewis Howes?

  You need the confidence too.

• 1:34:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's the last chapter. So the last chapter I have to end on is verbal. Because, yes, we spend a lot of the book talking about nonverbal and vocal, but your words matter as we talked about with achievement-oriented words.

• 1:34:29Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:34:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But man, if you can deliver achievement-oriented words with power pausing, with a steeple.

• 1:34:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Look out, look out world. You're coming.

• 1:34:40Lewis Howes?

  That's big. I am a big believer that the most important thing we can do is learn how to heal the different traumas or triggers from our past that get us in a reactive state when the world is happening. And we become uptight, reactive, we say things we don't want to say, we regret the things we do, we act out, whatever it might be. Healing the past, memories, pain, frustrations, whatever you want to call it, I think is one of the most powerful things. The second most powerful thing we can do is learn how to master the art of communication and learn how to be comfortable in our own skin and our own voice. You know, How to Win Friends and Influence People was a book that was extremely powerful for so many people to learn how to socially connect.

• 1:35:21Lewis Howes?

  And again, in life, we are either enrolling other people in us and our vision, or we're unenrolling them in us and our vision, based on how we communicate, how we connect with people, whether we're trustworthy or untrustworthy. This book and your research and studies and content has been extremely powerful for so many people, including myself. I learned a lot, and I feel like this is something I'm always studying.

• 1:35:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Lewis Howes?

  Because I feel like you can never learn enough of understanding the science of people.

• 1:35:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:35:51Lewis Howes?

  And so, I, one, want people to learn how to continue to heal. It's a journey.

• 1:35:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:35:56Lewis Howes?

  But two, I want them to learn how to understand people. Again, we go back to the quote that changed my early adult life, which was, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. If you can learn how to communicate that to people, it'll take you much farther. You know, you can, you can get by with less skills and less smarts if you understand how to be deeply empathetic and have connection skills with other people. It'll take you a long way. Eventually, you gotta have some competence in there and be skilled at something.

• 1:36:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And of course, everyone who's watching does, right? Like, we know that.

• 1:36:26Lewis Howes?

  You gotta have skills, and I think it's always important to invest in developing new skills as well to make you more competent. But this, uh, this book, your work, is extremely valuable and important. Cues, Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication, Small Signals, Incredible Impact, Vanessa Van Edwards. I want everyone to get this book. I want you to buy a few copies for your friends, for the introvert friends in your life, for the socially awkward friends, for the anxious friends. Charisma is a, is a superpower.

• 1:36:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's a superpower.

• 1:36:59Lewis Howes?

  It is a superpower when used correctly. And, and here's the thing, if you use it incorrectly, you'll be humbled at some point in your life.

• 1:37:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's right.

• 1:37:06Lewis Howes?

  Eventually, bad things will happen and they'll keep happening over and over.

• 1:37:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it will drain you.

• 1:37:09Lewis Howes?

  Drain you.

• 1:37:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:37:11Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna be humbled by the world if you don't use humility with your charisma. But I'm very excited about the book. I can't wait to dive in more and go back to this interview even more. I want people to get the book. They can follow you on the website, scienceofpeople.com, which has got an amazing newsletter that I subscribe to and get a lot of wisdom from.

• 1:37:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you.

• 1:37:29Lewis Howes?

  You're always sharing new research and all that stuff in there. Scienceofpeople.com, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, V. Van Edwards.

• 1:37:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's me.

• 1:37:38Lewis Howes?

  Everyone has social media. Your YouTube as well is extremely fun to watch. You just break down all these things visually.

• 1:37:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, so there was a couple of things I didn't get to put in the book because they were too visual. Like, it was just too hard to explain it. And so, if you want to just get a little taste test, I break down The Rock.

• 1:37:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 1:37:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because who doesn't want to see many, like dozens of cues from The Rock? So I break down The Rock. I do a deep dive of Britney Spears because I didn't even, that was a whole book, right? Like, I didn't have time to do it. I do Morgan Freeman. How does he get that vocal power? I talk about how he does it. Princess Diana. Why were we so intrigued by her? And Justin Bieber. So I break down some cues in there. He just wanted a little taste test.

• 1:38:15Lewis Howes?

  And that's all Science of People, or is that?

• 1:38:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's on YouTube and on Science of People. And we have our interview on there too. So if people want to go watch that, they can.

• 1:38:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes. Final two questions before I ask them. I want to acknowledge you, Vanessa, for constantly showing up. I think it's, I think introverts who felt like they grew up socially awkward, takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there, to constantly be in front of a camera, to be speaking on stages, to be learning this work and then sharing your work. I think it's really challenging to do for introverts. So, for the journey that you've been on to try to...

• 1:38:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Healing.

• 1:38:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. Healing is big too. But the journey you've had and you constantly keep showing up and putting this work out there is really inspiring. So I acknowledge you for that.

• 1:38:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you.

• 1:38:53Lewis Howes?

  I asked you this question before, but this is called the three truths question. Imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away, and for whatever reason, all of your work has to go with you to another place. So no one has access to your content. If you could leave three lessons to the world behind, what would you say would be those three lessons for you?

• 1:39:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Life is too short to fake it. Find the real warmth or the real competence, or get rid of it.

• 1:39:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  There are unique flavors of charisma. You don't have to be the bubbly extrovert. You can be the wise, competent sage, or the quiet, powerful leader, or the empathetic, compassionate healer. Those are all charismatic. They're different flavors. And lastly, your words have power. Your cues have power. Don't waste them. We can change someone's physiology with a single word. So with every word you put out there, think about how can you infect people for good?

• 1:39:51Lewis Howes?

  That is powerful. What's the most powerful word we can infect someone with in a positive way?

• 1:39:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think gratitude. I think every time you say, "Thank you." I'm appreciative. I'm grateful. You're gifting them honor and you're feeling grateful yourself. It's the only word I can think of that has a double effect both ways. So can I end on gratitude? I want to thank you so much because you created a tipping point in my career, where you believed in me, you listened to me wholeheartedly, and you put my work out there. And people listen, and it was a total tipping point in my career. And so you made me do podcasts. You made me realize I can do them in their safe spaces, which I was a little afraid of. You made me realize that I can find my people and I just have to speak to them. And you always say, "Yes, how can I help?" Which I'm so grateful for.

• 1:40:43Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you in return. You know, it's interesting, appreciation, the word gratitude and appreciation. Right when you said that, it made me reflect on my girlfriend and how I feel like every day I tell her how much I appreciate her. I'm like, "Gosh, I'm so grateful for how you did this. This thing you did for me, I appreciate it so much." And every time I do it, now that I reflect on it, she's always just like, it just warms her up even more.

• 1:41:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, yes. Because we don't often feel gratitude in our relationships, right? Especially, I've been married for 10 years, with my husband for 16 years. And you get very caught up in the logistics. So for anyone who's watching, I think we take the people we love for granted. We think about giving gifts of word to our colleagues or to our... Clients are to our customers, but like, don't forget the person you live with. Don't forget the person you care about. Don't get stuck in the logistics, right? Where you're like, you know, hey, how do you take the kids? And so I think that gratitude is especially important at home. And I think the more comfortable we are, the less we are gracious. Less gratitude we have. And so I hope that 10, 20, 30 years.

• 1:41:45Lewis Howes?

  Everyone in their first, I guess, year or two, you're like, oh, I love you so much. You're amazing.

• 1:41:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Not everyone. No, not everyone. No, not everyone. And so I would say like,

• 1:41:53Lewis Howes?

  Even the first couple of years?

• 1:41:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, I think saying that to her is a gift. And so if just your goal is 10 years from now, you can say that to her again. What a beautiful goal.

• 1:42:02Lewis Howes?

  Often she'll be like, you're the most amazing man ever. And I'm like, I don't feel like I'm doing anything. I'm just saying I appreciate you. I'm just like, man, I really, I'm so grateful you just did this. Thank you. I really appreciate the way you said this. Like, I don't think I'm like doing something extraordinary.

• 1:42:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No, it's big.

• 1:42:16Lewis Howes?

  She's like, you have no idea. Yeah, it's like, you're the most amazing man. I'm like, I'm not like doing some grand gesture. I'm literally just saying like, I'm focusing on something that I really appreciate that she did every day. And I'm like, I really appreciate the way you showed up here, here, here.

• 1:42:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that's why I think gratitude is the most powerful word there is. Because just being appreciative of her makes her think of it as a grand gesture. Imagine that, like, one word of gratitude is a grand gesture. It doesn't take a boat ride down the water. It doesn't take, you know, 12 dozen roses. It's like just telling someone you appreciate them. And if that's one thing you take away from this interview, that you will right now text someone that you love them and you appreciate them and thank them for being them.

• 1:42:56Lewis Howes?

  It's big. People remember that stuff.

• 1:42:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's a gift.

• 1:42:58Lewis Howes?

  People don't care how much you know till they know how much you care. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:43:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I love this because this is my third time here and I've had, I think my definition has changed.

• 1:43:09Lewis Howes?

  It's probably changed, yeah.

• 1:43:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Over time. It's being in integrity. So it's going back to that important thing. Greatness is showing up as you are, how you feel, and feeling free to be that way. So that means you like the people in your life, you respect the people in your life, you're showing up congruent, you're showing up with lots of integrity where you, your cues match your words, which match your emotions. And I think that I'm my greatest self when I can show up somewhere as myself and not worry about having to hide, fake, or change.

• 1:43:38Lewis Howes?

  Vanessa, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

• 1:43:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you. Thanks for listening.

• 1:43:42Lewis Howes?

  Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.